I-L621, a paleobalkanic haplogroup?

[Voskos]

I-L621 is typical of the South Slavic populations of south-eastern Europe, being highest in Bosnia-Herzegovina (>50%) in Croats.[3] There is also a high concentration of I-L621 in north-east Romania and Moldova. Several groups have determined the common occurrence of this subclade in the South Slavic-speaking populations to be the result of "pre-Slavic" paleolithic settlement in the region. Peričić et al. for instance places its expansion to have occurred "not earlier than the YD to Holocene transition and not later than the early Neolithic”.[13][14][15] Decidedly, the Slavic population can be divided into two genetically distinct groups: one encompassing all Western-Slavic (Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, etc.), Eastern-Slavic (Russians, Ukrainians, Belarusians, etc.) and a few Southern-Slavic populations (north-western Croats and Slovenes), characterized by Haplogroup R1a, and one encompassing all remaining Southern Slavs (Serbs, Bosniaks, southern Croats, Montenegrins, Macedonians and Bulgarians) but also the non-Slavic Romanians, characterized by Haplogroup I2a1b2 (I-L621). According to Rebała et al., this phenomenon is explained by "contribution to the Y chromosomes of peoples who settled in the Balkan region before the Slavic expansion to the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs.[16] It is attributed to the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture in what is now modern day Ukraine, Romania and Moldova. L69/S163 - Removed from I in 2011 and IJK in 2012.[17]


Frequency on the left, variation on the right:
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/images/ejhg2008249f4.jpg


Sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M438
http://www.nature.com

[Kelmendasi]

Man, I2a-din is a slavic marker

[The Illyrian Warrior]

It has been already settled that marker is not native to region, is rather recent in Balkans via Slavs.

[HellLander87]

Most l621 people belong to cts 10228 which has a tmrca of 2000 years. Why would a bunch of eastern europeans and balkanians share a common ancestor 2000 years ago?

[Wrong]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?204504-I2a1b-quot-Din-quot-Slavic-or-Paleolithic-Balkan

Highest variation in Ukraine, it busts the Goth theory through the window.

[Tschaikisten]

:whistle::whistle:

[Tschaikisten]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?204504-I2a1b-quot-Din-quot-Slavic-or-Paleolithic-Balkan

Highest variation in Ukraine, it busts the Goth theory through the window.
For me, Bastarnae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae) are best candidates for pre-slavic I2a Din population (before mix with Slavs in Slavic ethnogenesis).

[Skerdilaid]

Paleo kurac

[cosmoo]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?204504-I2a1b-quot-Din-quot-Slavic-or-Paleolithic-Balkan

Highest variation in Ukraine, it busts the Goth theory through the window.
Actually in Poland (individuals belonging to transitional clades from Disles to Dinaric plus "proto-Dinaric" are all from Poland).
You used to be quite supportive of this same theory a while ago IIRC.

For me, Bastarnae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastarnae) are best candidates for pre-slavic I2a Din population (before mix with Slavs in Slavic ethnogenesis).
Bastarnae were conglomeration of several different tribes (mainly east Germanic, but also other elements), so it doesn't seem very veracious. Theory from poreklo (that it originates from exiled young warriors (as a form of sacrifice) of Jastorf culture migrating to eastern Europe) is very illogical.

[Philip Latinowitz]

It's Slavic. If it were Germanic there would be Northwest European type of admixture in South Slavs but it seem to be lacking except perhaps in Slovenes, who are not so high in I2 anyway.

[Skerdilaid]

I2a were passive farmers who Avars and other steppe tribes pushed like cattle.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

I2a were passive farmers who Avars and other steppe tribes pushed like cattle.

Interesting, short yet on point history of this hg.

[Wrong]

Actually in Poland (individuals belonging to transitional clades from Disles to Dinaric plus "proto-Dinaric" are all from Poland).
You used to be quite supportive of this same theory a while ago IIRC.
Wrong. I was always in favour of Nordtvedt, that doesn't imply anything supportive of the Gothic theory.

[cosmoo]

It's Slavic. If it were Germanic there would be Northwest European type of admixture in South Slavs but it seem to be lacking except perhaps in Slovenes, who are not so high in I2 anyway.
It's incomparable, we are talking like ancient East Germanic (who split away from rest like 3k years ago) here.

I2a were passive farmers who Avars and other steppe tribes pushed like cattle.
Acutally, findings from Gotland suggest I2a1b was last haplogroup (together with northern I2a1a) to leave hunting and gathering, my steppenigga.

Wrong. I was always in favour of Nordtvedt, that doesn't imply anything supportive of the Gothic theory.
I remember that wasn't completely the case when "Albos are Dacians" thread was hot.
Even he mentioned different possibilities:
“I wish I knew more about where the Goths truly originated. But if they began in what today is called Pommerania or
Prussia, then the I2a2a-Dinaric might be their heritage”.
(this is from cca. 2013, when nomenclature was slightly different).

[Peterski]

Around 40-50 Wielbark culture DNA samples will be published (probably soon).

So we will see if there was any I2a-Din in Wielbark culture in ancient Poland.

[safinator]

Not again this thread holy shit, it's been said thousand times in other threads that it's an Y-DNA clade connected with Slavic expansion.

[Drawing-slim]

I2a were passive farmers who Avars and other steppe tribes pushed like cattle.

Ouch, that could actually be the case.

[catgeorge]

As old as J even older than J in Europe

G also branched off

[Peterski]

passive farmers

This is not how Early South Slavs were described by Byzantine authors:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?204402-Who-genetically-are-the-least-Slavic-of-the-Slavs&p=4268295&viewfull=1#post4268295

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?130235-Slavery-Reparations&p=4268278&viewfull=1#post4268278

In fact native Pre-Slavic Balkan populations were described as helpless.

As for the Avars - initial Slavic raids and invasions (ca. 490-560 AD) were carried out alone, without Avar help. The Avars arrived to the Balkans in 561 AD. And their relations with Slavs were complex (also different with different tribes - because Slavs were already divided into many tribes at that time).

The Avars destroyed the Gepids in 568 AD and defeated the Langobards in 569 AD.

The Langobards moved to Italy after being defeated by the Avars in Pannonia.

As for the Avars - sometimes they also fought as Byzantine allies against Slavs. In 584 AD the Slavs under Ardagast besieged Constantinople and Emperor Maurice united with Bayan I (Avar khagan) against the Slavs. Byzantine-Avar forces under Komentiolus defeated Ardagast in two battles. In 585 AD Byzantine-Avar forces under Priskos and Gentzon attacked Slavs to the north of the Danube (in Romania).

But later the Avars once again united with Slavs against the Byzantines.

[catgeorge]

Pre slav Balkanites were a mixture of Greeks, Thracians (same haplo as Greeks), llyrians (same haplo as Greeks) Scythians (proto-R1a) and Celts (R1b people)

[Peterski]

Info about Slavs being subjugated by the Avars was only about the Dulebes (not all Slavs):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulebes


Scythians (proto-R1a)

So far all Scythian R1a samples belong to R1a-Z93, which is the Indo-Iranic branch of R1a.

R1a in modern Greece belongs to typically Slavic subclades under R1a-M458 and R1a-Z280.

===============

Comments from Eurogenes blog about Slavic admixture in modern Southern Greece:

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/03/greek-confirmation-bias.html

Interesting read, "The plague pandemic and Slavic expansion in the 6th-8th centuries":

http://www.antropologia.uw.edu.pl/AS/as-005.pdf

It is possible that Slavs had a higher immunity to plague than Non-Slavic populations.

[Ülev]

From I to R1ethelites, as usually

[Skerdilaid]

This is not how Early South Slavs were described by Byzantine authors:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?204402-Who-genetically-are-the-least-Slavic-of-the-Slavs&p=4268295&viewfull=1#post4268295

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?130235-Slavery-Reparations&p=4268278&viewfull=1#post4268278

In fact native Pre-Slavic Balkan populations were described as helpless.

As for the Avars - initial Slavic raids and invasions (ca. 490-560 AD) were carried out alone, without Avar help. The Avars arrived to the Balkans in 561 AD. And their relations with Slavs were complex (also different with different tribes - because Slavs were already divided into many tribes at that time).

The Avars destroyed the Gepids in 568 AD and defeated the Langobards in 569 AD.

The Langobards moved to Italy after being defeated by the Avars in Pannonia.

As for the Avars - sometimes they also fought as Byzantine allies against Slavs. In 584 AD the Slavs under Ardagast besieged Constantinople and Emperor Maurice united with Bayan I (Avar khagan) against the Slavs. Byzantine-Avar forces under Komentiolus defeated Ardagast in two battles. In 585 AD Byzantine-Avar forces under Priskos and Gentzon attacked Slavs to the north of the Danube (in Romania).

But later the Avars once again united with Slavs against the Byzantines.

They actually reduced you to a vegetarian:

"Their history, from the earliest times, was a tragedy. Their proximity to the steppes of Southern Russia exposed them as a prey to the Asiatic mounted nomads who successively invaded and occupied the lands between the Don and the Dniester. Living as they did, they could not combine against these enemies who plundered them and carried them off as slaves. They could only protect themselves by hiding in the forest or in the waters of their lakes and rivers. They built their huts with several doors to facilitate escape when danger threatened; they hid their belongings, which were as few as possible, in the earth. They could elude a foe by diving under the water and lying for hours on the bottom, breathing through a long reed, which only the most experienced pursuers could detect.4

At a time of which we have no record the Slavs began to spread silently beyond the borders of Polesia, northward, eastward, and southward. In the fourth century they were conquered p295 by Hermanric, king of the Ostrogoths, and included in his extensive realm.5 They enjoyed a brief interlude of German tyranny instead of nomad raids; then the Huns appeared and they were exposed once more to the oppression which had been their secular lot. They had probably learned much from the Goths; but when they emerge at length into the full light of history in the sixth century, they still retained most of the characteristics which their life in Polesia had impressed upon them. They lived far apart from one another in wretched hovels;6 though they had learned to act together, they did not abandon their freedom to the authority of a king. Revolting against military discipline, they had no battle array and seldom met a foe in the open field.7 Their arms were a shield, darts, and poisoned arrows.8 They were perfidious, for no compact could bind them all; but they are praised for their hospitality to strangers and for the fidelity of their women"

Only after interbreeding with the Asian hordes did Slavs develop a back bone ;)

[Coolguy1]

It could be that the haplogroup originated amongst non slavic speakers, but was later obsorbed by them and brought to the balkans en masse.

[catgeorge]

It could be that the haplogroup originated amongst non slavic speakers, but was later obsorbed by them and brought to the balkans en masse.

If they bought them to the Balkans then I people were the fuckers not being fucked. To put it nicely.

But I is the oldest Haplo in Europe most likely came from cro-magnon.. which is also from J and G

[cosmoo]

This is not how Early South Slavs were described by Byzantine authors:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?204402-Who-genetically-are-the-least-Slavic-of-the-Slavs&p=4268295&viewfull=1#post4268295

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?130235-Slavery-Reparations&p=4268278&viewfull=1#post4268278

In fact native Pre-Slavic Balkan populations were described as helpless.
This. Slavs were quite far from "exploitable farmers" that some here try to present them as. Everyone on Balkan was shitting their pants when they came, at least according to period sources. The region which they came from (westernmost Slavic lands, according to Porphyrogenitus, matching toponyms, and few other sources) was infamous even after their departure. "I'll deliver you to the Wends" was a common threat Norsemen made to their captured foes. Elbe Slavs resisted Christianization the most and completely razed several important cities of Holy Roman Empire. They even raided Scandinavia (they are still salty and don't want to admit it), like when they burnt Konungahella to the ground and enslaved most of remaining population.


Info about Slavs being subjugated by the Avars was only about the Dulebes (not all Slavs):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dulebes
Yep, and Dulebes were the most passive Slavic tribe ever.


It could be that the haplogroup originated amongst non slavic speakers, but was later obsorbed by them and brought to the balkans en masse.
It is quite certain that it was originally a Mesolithic European haplogroup that first got Germanicized, then Slavicized, we only don't exactly know when and where.

[Peterski]

Their history, from the earliest times, was a tragedy.

How could it be a "tragedy" if Slavs are the largest meta-ethnicity in modern Europe?

Already Mario Alinei in "The Slavic Ethnogenesis..." noticed that it doesn't make sense:

https://www.academia.edu/11751155/The_Slavic_Ethnogenesis_in_the_framework_of_the_Pa leolithic_Continuity_Theory

http://i.imgur.com/gdUEWj1.png

I already explained, that this association formed because Slavs were enslaving others:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?204402-Who-genetically-are-the-least-Slavic-of-the-Slavs&p=4268295&viewfull=1#post4268295

But Mario Alinei chose the opposite explanation - that Slavs are native in the Balkans:

https://www.christopherculver.com/languages/nonsense-on-slavonic-origins.html

[Skerdilaid]

How could it be a "tragedy" if Slavs are the largest meta-ethnicity in modern Europe?

Already Mario Alinei in "The Slavic Ethnogenesis..." noticed that it doesn't make sense:

https://www.academia.edu/11751155/The_Slavic_Ethnogenesis_in_the_framework_of_the_Pa leolithic_Continuity_Theory

http://i.imgur.com/gdUEWj1.png

I already explained, that this association formed because Slavs were enslaving others:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?204402-Who-genetically-are-the-least-Slavic-of-the-Slavs&p=4268295&viewfull=1#post4268295

But Mario Alinei chose the opposite explanation - that Slavs are native in the Balkans:

https://www.christopherculver.com/languages/nonsense-on-slavonic-origins.html

Chill bro, I am just trolling. Though, there is some degree of truth on what I have been saying :D

[Drawing-slim]

Chill bro, I am just trolling. Though, there is some degree of truth on what I have been saying :D
I honestly agree with you as well. And i take pride being I2a. Which puts weight on my opinion regarding this subject. I bet I2a carriers are a more peaceful nature than avars huns and E-v13 J2's & R1b ghegs. Years ago in here i even pitched the idea that majority of sebrenica victims were 12a carriers while amongst the perpetrator serbs I2a must have veen in a very small number. If we look at all serbian war criminals its very easy to guess they're not I2a carriers.
This doesnt make I2a carriers pussies in literal sense but perhaps just naive not preparing for the worst so they dont get slaughtered like they did in bosnia, they are higher beings who value life and strive for peace, a higher quality life. More reasonable people than all ancient ghegs avars and huns:p

[Coolguy1]

I honestly agree with you as well. And i take pride being I2a. Which puts weight on my opinion regarding this subject. I bet I2a carriers are a more peaceful nature than avars huns and E-v13 J2's & R1b ghegs. Years ago in here i even pitched the idea that majority of sebrenica victims were 12a carriers while amongst the perpetrator serbs I2a must have veen in a very small number. If we look at all serbian war criminals its very easy to guess they're not I2a carriers.
This doesnt make I2a carriers pussies in literal sense but perhaps just naive not preparing for the worst so they dont get slaughtered like they did in bosnia, they are higher beings who value life and strive for peace, a higher quality life. More reasonable people than all ancient ghegs avars and huns:p

What part of Albania are you from?

[Drawing-slim]

What part of Albania are you from?

Near montenegro border, north west albania.

[Dick]

What part of Albania are you from?

His paternal ancestor was a montenegrin serb.

[Wrong]

The fucking coping is too hard in this thread.

[Wrong]

I remember that wasn't completely the case when "Albos are Dacians" thread was hot.
Even he mentioned different possibilities:
“I wish I knew more about where the Goths truly originated. But if they began in what today is called Pommerania or
Prussia, then the I2a2a-Dinaric might be their heritage”.
(this is from cca. 2013, when nomenclature was slightly different).Troll thread, I didn't even present anything serious in there because I don't take stuff seriously.

Dacian theory is too far-fetched, but even less so than the Gothic theory of yours. Had you scored something else than I2a1b-Din, you would cope with that one too.

[Voskos]

south slavs themselves are way more LBK-like than pure slavs like Poles, something that probably correlates with their high I2a/R1a ratio.

[cosmoo]

Troll thread, I didn't even present anything serious in there because I don't take stuff seriously.

Dacian theory is too far-fetched, but even less so than the Gothic theory of yours. Had you scored something else than I2a1b-Din, you would cope with that one too.

Your whole argumentation is basically "SHIT FAKE COPE LEL KIDDO".
I have never said that I know with utter certainity that I2a1b Din came with Goths, I just said they are most probable original bearers of it IMO. What I know for sure, though, is that it belonged to some Germanic-speaking tribe before Slavicization. If you disagree with that, you are free to offer alternative explanation (which you haven't done).
Ancient I2a1b was found among northern hunter-gatherers, and older clades of Dinaric, "Isles" and "Disles" (Din split from Disles) are found predominantly in NW Europe today, so it's pretty clear it came to eastern Europe from northwestern direction. It is pretty clear that it was Germanic speaking before it got Slavicized (or would you argue it belonged to some super-remote Mesolithic tribe that somehow arrived to eastern Europe while managing to avoid getting Indoeuropeanized all along their journey?).
Only question is when did it get Slavicized. There are several opinions, that it became Slavic: 1. during Slav ethnogenesis itself; 2. after it (but still in northern Slavic lands); 3. one part that remained in north got Slavicized, and the other one that was on Balkans also, but after arrival of Slavs here.
I support third option, and I have already explained my stance many times (primary reason being unequal distribution of I2a1b and R1a in Yugoslavia). Leaders of Serbian DNA project "Poreklo" support something between first and second option, suggesting Bastarnae as its original bearers.

"Coping"? Stop spewing shit all around. I'm trying to deduce its origins as objectively as possible. I would have nothing against its Slavic origin, in fact, our official history supports thesis that we descend from Elbe Slavs that came here during 6th/7th century (based, among other things, on almost 1000 identical toponyms), but I fail to see genetic confirmation for that.

[Wrong]

Your whole argumentation is basically "SHIT FAKE COPE LEL KIDDO".
I have never said that I know with utter certainity that I2a1b Din came with Goths, I just said they are most probable original bearers of it IMO. What I know for sure, though, is that it belonged to some Germanic-speaking tribe before Slavicization. If you disagree with that, you are free to offer alternative explanation (which you haven't done).
Ancient I2a1b was found among northern hunter-gatherers, and older clades of Dinaric, "Isles" and "Disles" (Din split from Disles) are found predominantly in NW Europe today, so it's pretty clear it came to eastern Europe from northwestern direction. It is pretty clear that it was Germanic speaking before it got Slavicized (or would you argue it belonged to some super-remote Mesolithic tribe that somehow arrived to eastern Europe while managing to avoid getting Indoeuropeanized all along their journey?).
Only question is when did it get Slavicized. There are several opinions, that it became Slavic: 1. during Slav ethnogenesis itself; 2. after it (but still in northern Slavic lands); 3. one part that remained in north got Slavicized, and the other one that was on Balkans also, but after arrival of Slavs here.
I support third option, and I have already explained my stance many times (primary reason being unequal distribution of I2a1b and R1a in Yugoslavia). Leaders of Serbian DNA project "Poreklo" support something between first and second option, suggesting Bastarnae as its original bearers.

"Coping"? Stop spewing shit all around. I'm trying to deduce its origins as objectively as possible. I would have nothing against its Slavic origin, in fact, our official history supports thesis that we descend from Elbe Slavs that came here during 6th/7th century (based, among other things, on almost 1000 identical toponyms), but I fail to see genetic confirmation for that.Are you not 18 soon? It's time for military training, not this sperging pile of shit.

Friendly advice.

[cosmoo]

Are you not 18 soon? It's time for military training, not this sperging pile of shit.

Friendly advice.
Is this what you always do when you're unable to lead an argumented discussion?

Are you not 30 soon? It's time to wake up, not to leech welfare while playing games all day long.

[Wrong]

Is this what you always do when you're unable to lead an argumented discussion?

Are you not 30 soon? It's time to wake up, not to leech welfare while playing games all day long.
I work, fuck, play games and post on TA, can't ask for more right now.

You really need to start focusing on other aspects except haplosperging, otherwise you'll be stuck at it for years to come.

[cosmoo]

I work, fuck, play games and post on TA, can't ask for more right now.

You really need to start focusing on other aspects except haplosperging, otherwise you'll be stuck at it for years to come.
Calling me a haplotard tells more about yourself than you think, i.e. trying to start bickering on personal level shows me that you have failed to prove your point and present valid arguments in original discussion.
Case over. You lost.

[Wrong]

Calling me a haplotard tells more about yourself than you think, i.e. trying to start bickering on personal level shows me that you have failed to prove your point and present valid arguments in original discussion.
Case over. You lost.Just saying man. No need to take it personal when I simply gave you friendly advice.

[catgeorge]

Xhak Bauer is a confused Slav

Upgraded Y-DNA Haplogroup Tree changes and ISOGG for 2017

https://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNATreeTrunk.html

L-621 6500 years old and seems to be Celtic
(going downstream)
- I-CTS10228 - is Dinaric 5300 years old
- I-A2512 seems have reached Greece 2200 years ago

Interestingly enough

The Bulgarian L-621

I-S17250 was formed 2200 years ago exactly same time as the Greek one - there were no Bulgarians in Greece or Balkans in BC but sure enough formed as a meeting between Romans, Illyrians and Thracians

probably travelled through through this route

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Ancient_balkans_4thcentury.png

What is interesting the German and Italian I-PH908 is barely 1500 years old

...and the pure German one I-Y19359 - is even younger!

[Wrong]

Xhak Bauer is a confused Slav


You are more Slavic-shifted than i, in DNA :D

[catgeorge]

You are more Slavic-shifted than i, in DNA :D

I dont have any east european in autosomal mr Yamnaya

[Wrong]

I dont have any east european in autosomal mr YamnayaPost your gedmatch kit then.

You never posted any autosomal results before, probably hiding something.

[catgeorge]

Post your gedmatch kit

nope

[catgeorge]

Post your gedmatch kit then.

You never posted any autosomal results before, probably hiding something.

I have posted them

[Wrong]

nopeOk slavoarab

Nice edit, link?

[Kelmendasi]

I2a-Din is obviously Slavic, this is the reason why Eupedia doesn't even mention Illyrians on their page on I2a-Din anymore

[catgeorge]

I2a-Din is obviously Slavic, this is the reason why Eupedia doesn't even mention Illyrians on their page on I2a-Din anymore

Its paleobalkanic where slavs are today yes.. you dont need to have two braincells to figure this out right

[Kelmendasi]

Its paleobalkanic where slavs are today yes.. you dont need to have two braincells to figure this out right
A better argument would be saying that it's paleo-European since the I haplogroup originated in Europe. I2a-Din didn't originate in the Balkans I hope you already know this

[catgeorge]

A better argument would be saying that it's paleo-European since the I haplogroup originated in Europe. I2a-Din didn't originate in the Balkans I hope you already know this

This is hard to say cro magnon migration was 40,000 years ago

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Cro-Magnon_migration.gif

GHIJK F1329/M3658/PF2622/YSC0001299, CTS2254/M3680/PF2657 was under same umbrella

G split off first

HIJK

I split off later

..and then J

[Kelmendasi]

This is hard to say cro magnon migration was 40,000 years ago

[ig]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/Cro-Magnon_migration.gif[/img]

GHIJK F1329/M3658/PF2622/YSC0001299, CTS2254/M3680/PF2657 was under same umbrella

G split off first

HIJK

I split off later

..and then J
I as a haplogroup itself originated in Europe and I2a-Din originated in the area around Ukraine

[catgeorge]

I as a haplogroup itself originated in Europe and I2a-Din originated in the area around Ukraine

So Scythians were I2a-Din - now if you excuse me I will lolz

[Kelmendasi]

So Scythians were I2a-Din - now if you excuse me I will lolz
Who said they were I2a-Din??????. I2a-Din originated in the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture. And Scythians didn't come from Ukraine they came from Central Asia before migrating westwards

[Wrong]

All Scythian samples found are of the Iranic R1a-branch which doesn't exist in Europeans.

[Kelmendasi]

All Scythian samples found are of the Iranic R1a-branch which doesn't exist in Europeans.
Some Scythian samples were also J1 but these were Sarmatians which were an offshoot branch of Scythians

[catgeorge]

Who said they were I2a-Din??????. I2a-Din originated in the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture. And Scythians didn't come from Ukraine they came from Central Asia before migrating westwards

Nahhh - they were destroyed by Kurgans and Pontic Stepes 5000 + years ago

[Kelmendasi]

Nahhh - they were destroyed by Kurgans and Pontic Stepes 5000 + years ago
Just read this http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml#I2a1b. I2a-Din is not Illyrian nor Balkanic this is a fact but yet you still argue that it's balkanic :picard1:. Even Eupedia have stopped saying that Illyrians had it lol

[catgeorge]

From the link you gave me


No Y-DNA sample from this culture has been tested to date, but as it evolved as an offshoot from the Starčevo–Kőrös–Criş culture, it is likely that I2a was one of its main paternal lineages, and a founder effect could have increased considerably its frequency.

This is the Thessalian neolithic expansion and since you like Eupedia so much

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/old_neolithic_map.gif

[Kelmendasi]

From the link you gave me



This is the Thessalian neolithic expansion and since you like Eupedia so much

[ig]http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/old_neolithic_map.gif[/img]
Read it properly as it says that it comes from Ukraine

[Voskos]

It's hard to believe it's Slavic when countries like Romania or Moldova have more I2a1 than core slavic ones like Poland, Russia and Ukraine.

[Wrong]

It's hard to believe it's Slavic when countries like Romania or Moldova have more I2a1 than core slavic ones like Poland, Russia and Ukraine.Anything can happen with founder effects. Slavs are not bound by just one haplogroup.

Ghegs are a few million people and have 3 typical haplogroups, one doesn't make the other less Albanian.

Now Slavs on the other hand number hundreds of millions.

[Voskos]

Anything can happen with founder effects. Slavs are not bound by just one haplogroup.

Ghegs are a few million people and have 3 typical haplogroups, one doesn't make the other less Albanian.

Now Slavs on the other hand number hundreds of millions.

could be.I would like to see some Dacian ancients to be sure though.

[Wrong]

could be.I would like to see some Dacian ancients to be sure though.
Apart from I2a1b-Din, I am surprised by the high J2b2 in Romania. Vlachs absorbed both of those in high numbers.

Romania was the crossroad of many migrations, though look at R1b the Yamnaya subgroup, it's high in non-Slavic speakers all over Balkans.

[Skerdilaid]

Xhak Bauer is a confused Slav

Upgraded Y-DNA Haplogroup Tree changes and ISOGG for 2017

https://isogg.org/tree/ISOGG_YDNATreeTrunk.html

L-621 6500 years old and seems to be Celtic
(going downstream)
- I-CTS10228 - is Dinaric 5300 years old
- I-A2512 seems have reached Greece 2200 years ago

Interestingly enough

The Bulgarian L-621

I-S17250 was formed 2200 years ago exactly same time as the Greek one - there were no Bulgarians in Greece or Balkans in BC but sure enough formed as a meeting between Romans, Illyrians and Thracians

probably travelled through through this route

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Ancient_balkans_4thcentury.png

What is interesting the German and Italian I-PH908 is barely 1500 years old

...and the pure German one I-Y19359 - is even younger!

You're mentally retarded

[Skerdilaid]

I honestly agree with you as well. And i take pride being I2a. Which puts weight on my opinion regarding this subject. I bet I2a carriers are a more peaceful nature than avars huns and E-v13 J2's & R1b ghegs. Years ago in here i even pitched the idea that majority of sebrenica victims were 12a carriers while amongst the perpetrator serbs I2a must have veen in a very small number. If we look at all serbian war criminals its very easy to guess they're not I2a carriers.
This doesnt make I2a carriers pussies in literal sense but perhaps just naive not preparing for the worst so they dont get slaughtered like they did in bosnia, they are higher beings who value life and strive for peace, a higher quality life. More reasonable people than all ancient ghegs avars and huns:p

Arkan was I2a Dinaric (a true baby killer coward) :p

[Dick]

Apart from I2a1b-Din, I am surprised by the high J2b2 in Romania. Vlachs absorbed both of those in high numbers.

Romania was the crossroad of many migrations, though look at R1b the Yamnaya subgroup, it's high in non-Slavic speakers all over Balkans.

Werent the r1b carriers centum?

[Philip Latinowitz]

Who said they were I2a-Din??????. I2a-Din originated in the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture. And Scythians didn't come from Ukraine they came from Central Asia before migrating westwards
It's just a speculation, there is no evidence it originated with Cucuteni-Trypillian culture.


From the link you gave me
This is the Thessalian neolithic expansion and since you like Eupedia so much

http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/old_neolithic_map.gif
I2 in Starcevo was neolitic type, nothing to do with I2-dinaric. There hasn't been found southeast European findings of this branch so far.

[Kelmendasi]

It's just a speculation, there is no evidence it originated with Cucuteni-Trypillian culture.


I2 in Starcevo was neolitic type, nothing to do with I2-dinaric. There hasn't been found southeast European findings of this branch so far.
True it is speculation but the fact that it is a Slavic marker isn't speculation

[Philip Latinowitz]

True it is speculation but the fact that it is a Slavic marker isn't speculation
Most likely. But we'd need ancient Eastern and Southeastern European samples to know for sure.

[Drawing-slim]

Arkan was I2a Dinaric (a true baby killer coward) :p

Was he really??

[Skerdilaid]

Was he really??

Yeah looks like he was, I am related to a Raznatovic at 23andme who is I2a. His family are with origin from Cetinje, Montenegro.

[Deniz]

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup?iframe=yresultsPage 3
GÜLER is me in this page.I join the Ftdna I2a project group.I am waiting Snp pack results.Probably,There weeks later,I will learn my maternal Y-Dna and Paternal Y-dna Snp results.

Y-DNA - Haplogroup Origins

12 Marker

EXACT MATCH
Haplogroup Country Comment Count
I-A1328 Russian Federation - 1
I-A5874 Austria - 1
I-CTS10228 - 1
I-CTS10228 Russian Federation - 1
I-M423 Poland - 2
I-M423 Ukraine - 1
I-P37 Lithuania - 1
I-P37 Ukraine - 1
I-Y13498 Ukraine - 1
I-Y3548 Slovakia - 1
GENETIC DISTANCE - 1
Haplogroup Country Comment Count
I-A10959 Greece - 1
I-A11523 Belarus - 1
I-A11523 Lithuania - 1
I-A1221 Albania - 1
I-A1221 Moldova - 1
I-A2512 Greece - 1
I-A811 Russian Federation - 2
I-A815 Hungary - 1
I-CTS10228 Bulgaria - 1
I-CTS10228 Serbia - 1
I-CTS10228 Syrian Arab Republic - 1
I-L621 Belarus - 1
I-M423 Austria - 1
I-M423 Bosnia and Herzegovina - 1
I-M423 Germany - 2
I-M423 Italy - 1
I-M423 Russian Federation - 1
I-P37 Lithuania - 1
I-P37 Russian Federation - 1
I-S17250 Belarus - 1
I-S17250 Hungary - 1
I-S17250 Macedonia - 1
I-S17250 Poland - 1
I-S8201 Belarus - 1
I-Y13498 Poland - 2
I-Y3118 Russian Federation - 1
I-Y3548 Bosnia and Herzegovina - 1
I-Y4460 Belarus - 1
I-Y4460 Bulgaria - 1
I-Y4460 Poland - 1
I-Y4460 Russian Federation - 1
I-Y4460 Sweden - 1
I-Y4460 Ukraine - 2
I-Y4882 Ukraine - 2
I-Z16971 Poland - 1
I-Z17855 Bulgaria - 2
I-Z17855 Hungary - 1
I-Z17855 Macedonia - 1

25 Marker

GENETIC DISTANCE - 2
Haplogroup Country Comment Count
I-CTS10228 - 1
I-CTS10228 Bulgaria - 1
I-M423 Poland - 1
I-M423 Ukraine - 1
I-Y4460 Belarus - 1
I-Y4460 Bulgaria - 1



37 Marker

GENETIC DISTANCE - 4
Haplogroup Country Comment Count
I-M423 Poland - 1
I-M423 Ukraine - 1
I-Y3118 Lithuania - 1

67 Marker

Syrian markers grandfather Ottoman Pasha from Balkans.

[Drawing-slim]

Yeah looks like he was, I am related to a Raznatovic at 23andme who is I2a. His family are with origin from Cetinje, Montenegro.
I hope not, i just don't think arkan was I2a. If so Then i have to kill myself out of shame.

[Jackson78]

Yeah looks like he was, I am related to a Raznatovic at 23andme who is I2a. His family are with origin from Cetinje, Montenegro.

Do you have some other Montenegrins on relatives list?

[JQP4545]

There are a few problems with the theory that I2-Dinaric is a Slavic marker. The first is that it has its highest frequencies are on the Croatian islands of Hvar, Korcula and Brac. The frequencies on these islands are significantly higher than on the Croatian mainland. In addition, its highest frequencies on the Balkan mainland are in the more remote, mountainous regions and its lowest frequencies are in the valleys. However, this is the opposite pattern that we would expect to find because the Slavs were mostly farmers who settled in the fertile valleys and assimilated natives in the highlands. The ratio of R1a:I2a is higher in the areas that were known to have the heaviest Slavic settlements.
A second problem I have with the theory that I2-Dinaric is a marker of Slavic expansions is that there are far more individuals from northeastern Europe who have tested their haplogroups than from the Balkans. On FTDNA the total number of individuals tested from the Balkans only amounts to around 2,000. In comparison, over 3,000 Ukrainians, 6,500 Poles, 1,300 Belarussians, 1,900 Hungarians and 800 Slovakians have tested. Did Nordtvedt take this into account when calculating I2a's center of diversity?
If you look at autosomal results for some of the Mycenaean samples that were recently published you will see that we are already finding eastern european dna in the Balkans in the Bronze age.
This is a weaker point that I2a dinaric was in the Balkans before the Slavs, but still something to consider. Haplogroup I has the greatest predicted height of all y chromosomes and the ancient Illyrians were always described as being tall and well built by the ancients.

[Jackson78]

I hope not, i just don't think arkan was I2a. If so Then i have to kill myself out of shame.

You also probably have the same SNP as Arkan, I2а1b>CTS10228>Z17855. :biggrin:

[Dick]

You also probably have the same SNP as Arkan, I2а1b>CTS10228>Z17855. :biggrin:

:heh:

[Skerdilaid]

Do you have some other Montenegrins on relatives list?

Yes, many actually

[Drenica]

Yes, many actually

Yeah , same here.. there are few I2a and R1a but majority of them do have paternal Albanian ancestry like j2b2 , r1b and ev13 ..

As for Arkan the gay and Karadorde, they might of been I2a but for sure had Albanian or some Vlach admixture from other sides given they originated in Montenegro.

[Jackson78]

Yes, many actually

Is there some interesting surnames with their Y haplogroups also?

[Jackson78]

Yeah , same here.. there are few I2a and R1a but majority of them do have paternal Albanian ancestry like j2b2 , r1b and ev13 ..

As for Arkan the gay and Karadorde, they might of been I2a but for sure had Albanian or some Vlach admixture from other sides given they originated in Montenegro.

Do you guys have their surnames?

There is no doubt that Arkan and Karadjordje have Albanian genetics through maternal side.

[Drenica]

Do you guys have their surnames?

There is no doubt that Arkan and Karadjordje have Albanian genetics through maternal side.

Yeah, I got their surnames. I can take screenshots for you , just pm me and I'll do it. But there are many of them and some have not listed their ydna but I will send you the ones that have.


Some do look like Slavicized Albanian surnames like Balanovic from Balaj maybe? Idk .. says he's j2b2 and shares Albanian matches with me and some Montenigrins.

[Jackson78]

Yeah, I got their surnames. I can take screenshots for you , just pm me and I'll do it. But there are many of them and some have not listed their ydna but I will send you the ones that have.

Ok, thank you.