Good blog post on the possibility of higher "Slavic" input in Peloponnese

[Sikeliot]

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/03/greek-confirmation-bias.html

This is what I was saying.

The population replacement may have happened, but not by Polish-like people, rather Bulgarian-like people. Hence why Peloponnesians do not plot exactly with Sicilians and Italians.

[Sikeliot]

Up to 14% genuine NE European input is not low, though... this is more Slavic than some Brits are Anglo-Saxon.

[Coolguy1]

So if they were Bulgarian like, then we dont have real Slavs moving into the area. We have a mostly slavicized population with majority native genes.

Anyways, I dont believe they were Bulgarian like, Slavs from their homeland moved into the Peloponnese the same time they moved into the rest of the balkans.

[Sikeliot]

So if they were Bulgarian like, then we dont have real Slavs moving into the area. We have a mostly slavicized population with majority native genes.

Anyways, I dont believe they were Bulgarian like, Slavs from their homeland moved into the Peloponnese the same time they moved into the rest of the balkans.

I think they would have acquired native admixture as they move south.

If the question is genuine NE Euro genes in Peloponnese, it's present but low. If it is of how much of the original population was replaced, it could have been very high if we assume the invaders to be like Bulgarians rather than like Russians.

[wvwvw]

The comments on Eurogenes blog are highly ignorant and innacurate, also Davinski's bias and ignorance about Greek history is shining.

[wvwvw]

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/03/greek-confirmation-bias.html

This is what I was saying.

The population replacement may have happened, but not by Polish-like people, rather Bulgarian-like people. Hence why Peloponnesians do not plot exactly with Sicilians and Italians.

Wishing it happened won't make it so.

The outdated and ludicrous view that Slavs replaced the Greeks in Peloponesse has been discredited by countless serious scholars.

Fallmerayer had political motives to say the things he said about Greeks, it was against Austria's interests an Independent Greece. The Austro-Hungarian empire was one of the staunchest supporters of the Ottomans at the time.

Fallmerayer was an alcoholic and a big hater of Greeks and so are you, and Davinski and anyone else who keep citing his discredited bigoted views. No historian or ethnographer to this day has ever taken Fallmerayer's work seriously.

[Oneeye]

Up to 14% genuine NE European input is not low, though... this is more Slavic than some Brits are Anglo-Saxon.



Which Brits, the Welsh? xD

[Danaan]

Proud to be Slavs.

Don't feed the troll.

[Oneeye]

I know it is accepted that the English aren't majority Anglo Saxon, but it's much higher than 14%. That's just getting carried away.

https://www.google.com/amp/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/35344663

[Queen B]

:picard1:

[Sikeliot]

Everyone is misunderstanding my point.

NE European input is present but low.

But without testing Bulgarians and Serbs, how do we know how much population replacement took place? The estimate seems much lower if using Russians to proxy the incoming Slavs, but larger if using the predominantly native origin Bulgarians.

Therefore, the study proved limited NE Euro input, it did NOT prove full genetic continuity among Peloponnesians.

[XenophobicPrussian]

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/03/greek-confirmation-bias.html

This is what I was saying.

The population replacement may have happened, but not by Polish-like people, rather Bulgarian-like people. Hence why Peloponnesians do not plot exactly with Sicilians and Italians.
Where do Peloponnesians plot? Do you have K15 results from a few? I doubt they're more northern shifted than other Greeks, they even have less R1a than northern Greeks. The most Slavic Greeks seem to be Greeks from Thessaly.

If Bulgarian like Slavs replaced Peloponnesians(and if they're more southern or the same as other Greeks) then they would've also had to replace the entirety of Greece. Most ancient sources should be taken with a grain of salt, it's highly unlikely any group of Slavs replaced any native groups in Greece.

I also highly doubt Greeks have 14% genuine post-500 AD NE Euro admixture. That'd mean they'd be even much more southern shifted than they are today and they don't even have that much R1a/Slavic I2, which would've only been brought by males so the autosomal input should be much less than Y-DNA input, not all of their R1a is probably Slavic either.

[Sikeliot]

Where do Peloponnesians plot? Do you have K15 results from a few? I doubt they're more northern shifted than other Greeks, they even have less R1a than northern Greeks. The most Slavic Greeks seem to be Greeks from Thessaly.

If Bulgarian like Slavs replaced Peloponnesians(and if they're more southern or the same as other Greeks) then they would've also had to replace the entirety of Greece. Most ancient sources should be taken with a grain of salt, it's highly unlikely any group of Slavs replaced any native groups in Greece.

I also highly doubt Greeks have 14% genuine post-500 AD NE Euro admixture. That'd mean they'd be even much more southern shifted than they are today and they don't even have that much R1a/Slavic I2, which would've only been brought by males so the autosomal input should be much less than Y-DNA input, not all of their R1a is probably Slavic either.


Peloponnese would have less than the rest of the mainland. I think a good place to put them genetically is near Italians from Abruzzo.

With that said, I am not saying NE Euro is high, but that we should model the Slavs in Greece with Balkan Slavs, not Russians.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Peloponnese would have less than the rest of the mainland. I think a good place to put them genetically is near Italians from Abruzzo.

With that said, I am not saying NE Euro is high, but that we should model the Slavs in Greece with Balkan Slavs, not Russians.
You specifically said 14% NE Euro though, and suggested Balkan Slavic admixture could be up to 90-100%(aka a population replacement), but Peloponnese are likely less Slavic than all other Greeks except islanders so that doesn't make any sense.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

This sounds more legit and more reliable based on middle age chronicles, there goes another fairytale about purity of greek people something which was attempted in another thread with clear agenda driven study.

[Voskos]

This sounds more legit and more reliable based on middle age chronicles, there goes another fairytale about purity of greek people something which was attempted in another thread with clear agenda driven study.

Dear fatlips, your total slavic is about two times higher than mine, if not higher.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

Dear fatlips, your total slavic is about two times higher than mine, if not higher.

You're cretan understandably you score less slavic and more Maghrebi, so you're safe but you're brother from Peloponnese are more mishmash and obviously doesn't fall into those generic fairytales I keep hearing about muh ancient purity stuff.

You were ok with clearly biased study of days ago but I see you dislike this one because doesn't fit your own views I see.

[Coolguy1]

You're cretan understandably you score less slavic and more Maghrebi, so you're safe but you're brother from Peloponnese are more mishmash and obviously doesn't fall into those generic fairytales I keep hearing about muh ancient purity stuff.

You were ok with clearly biased study of days ago but I see you dislike this one because doesn't fit your own views I see.

Except Albanians score more I2a and R1a than Greeks in general

[Voskos]

You're cretan understandably you score less slavic and more Maghrebi, so you're safe but you're brother from Peloponnese are more mishmash and obviously doesn't fall into those generic fairytales I keep hearing about muh ancient purity stuff.

You were ok with clearly biased study of days ago but I see you dislike this one because doesn't fit your own views I see.

its the same study, but this time commented by a polish blogger who disagrees with it.


you score less slavic and more Maghrebi

as if albs didnt score maghrebi on top of slav

[Petalpusher]

It's 0.2-14%, it seems right but it's a range.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

Except Albanians score more I2a and R1a than Greeks in general

Actually you stand higher in genuine slavic marker R1a according to eupedia, in Ghegs Albanians both markers are pretty much in negligible numbers esp. R1a which is pretty hard to find.

[Voskos]

http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/03/greek-confirmation-bias.html

This is what I was saying.

The population replacement may have happened, but not by Polish-like people, rather Bulgarian-like people. Hence why Peloponnesians do not plot exactly with Sicilians and Italians.

man, have you ever seen a peloponnesian. most of the time i mistake them for islanders or athenians

[Coolguy1]

Actually you stand higher in genuine slavic marker R1a according to eupedia, in Ghegs Albanians both markers are pretty much in negligible numbers esp. R1a which is pretty hard to find.

https://scontent.fijd1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/17521725_1288839597865854_1791299520_o.jpg?oh=9186 ca1ddab571070e3cda2c23002319&oe=58D884F4

Greeks are higher in R1a and Albos are higher in I2a. Even still, Slavic y dna in Greeks is 22.8% whereas its 23.6% in Albanians.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

its the same study, but this time commented by a polish blogger who disagrees with it.



as if albs didnt score maghrebi on top of slav

They should come out with y dna results also, not solely if they plot closer to Poles (referring as slavic homeland) or Sicilians, besides, that's pretty inconsistent and misleading measurement when Bulgarians are ignored in study given they were the ones who had direct effect on your population not northern Slavics, if they did took reference from Bulgarians or any South Slavs, we would have much different mirror yet more correct interpretation of data, the previous study was a bullcrap with clear hidden agenda.

You won't see Albanians scoring high amount of ashkenazi, arab and whatnot other levantine to be scored in dna.land/or in other calculators, so you should be last to even project this results to anyone who's plotting much northern then you.....Even at slavs, is rather debatable subject.

[Sikeliot]

It's 0.2-14%, it seems right but it's a range.

And my point is if we assume Bulgarian-like "Slavs" in the Peloponnese, the ancestry would be higher than this. 0.2% is for the isolated groups like Tsakonia.

[Coolguy1]

They should come out with y dna results also, not solely if they plot closer to Poles (referring as slavic homeland) or Sicilians, besides, that's pretty inconsistent and misleading measurement when Bulgarians are ignored in study given they were the ones who had direct effect on your population not northern Slavics, if they did took reference from Bulgarians or any South Slavs, we would have much different mirror yet more correct interpretation of data, the previous study was a bullcrap with clear hidden agenda.

You won't see Albanians scoring high amount of ashkenazi, arab and whatnot other levantine to be scored in dna.land/or in other calculators, so you should be last to even project this results to anyone who's plotting much northern then you.....Even at slavs, is rather debatable subject.

On every gedmatch calculator, Albanians have a closer distance to Bulgarians than Greeks do to Bulgarians on average.

If they used Bulgaria as a proxy then im sure the IBD sharing would be high, but what else would you expect? both populations come primarily from a pre-Slavic substrate.

The point is, original Slavic input from northern Europe is low, its as simple as that

[Sikeliot]

man, have you ever seen a peloponnesian. most of the time i mistake them for islanders or athenians

It depends on where. Maniots I often take for Sicilian. However, people in the north and inland regions, not so much.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

https://scontent.fijd1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t35.0-12/17521725_1288839597865854_1791299520_o.jpg?oh=9186 ca1ddab571070e3cda2c23002319&oe=58D884F4

Greeks are higher in R1a and Albos are higher in I2a. Even still, Slavic y dna in Greeks is 22.8% whereas its 23.6% in Albanians.

Yes, but breaking down in northern regions on both of our countries you stand much higher in two slavic markers, I2a and R1a, even if geographically speaking we were historically surrounded by army of slavs yet managed to be less influenced by them.

[Sikeliot]

On every gedmatch calculator, Albanians have a closer distance to Bulgarians than Greeks do to Bulgarians on average.

If they used Bulgaria as a proxy then im sure the IBD sharing would be high, but what else would you expect? both populations come primarily from a pre-Slavic substrate.

The point is, original Slavic input from northern Europe is low, its as simple as that

You can't use GEDmatch here to prove your point and then dismiss the validity of it when I point out Peloponnesians and Sicilians on GEDmatch do not come out as close as this study would make one think.

Overall, I have not seen any GEDmatch from Tsakonia or from "Deep Mani" so I cannot say, but the regular, ordinary Peloponnesians, are not much different than other mainlanders.

My point in posting this is not to prove Peloponnesians are NE Euro, the study disproved this. But it DID NOT disprove the notion of disrupted genetic continuity.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

On every gedmatch calculator, Albanians have a closer distance to Bulgarians than Greeks do to Bulgarians on average.

If they used Bulgaria as a proxy then im sure the IBD sharing would be high, but what else would you expect? both populations come primarily from a pre-Slavic substrate.

The point is, original Slavic input from northern Europe is low, its as simple as that

If it wasn't for Asia Minor migrants and Greek Islander you would be up north, plotting near Bulgarians.

Besides plotting north in Balkans shouldn't be immediately associated with Slavs, many pre-Slavs from north were here and assimilated within an ethnic group.

[Coolguy1]

Yes, but breaking down in northern regions on both of our countries you stand much higher in two slavic markers, I2a and R1a, even if geographically speaking we were historically surrounded by army of slavs yet managed to be less influenced by them.

There is a problem in grouping all Greek Macedonians together. There still exists a Slavic minority around Florina and Edessa, if samples from these regions were included then the results are terribly skewed. A more accurate assessment would be to test individuals from fully Greeks areas of Macedonia such as Grevena, Kastoria, chalkidiki, Serres, Naoussa etc.

[Sikeliot]

If it wasn't for Asia Minor migrants and Greek Islander you would be up north, plotting near Bulgarians.

Peloponnesians do not have much Asia Minor influence from refugees at all.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

Peloponnesians do not have much Asia Minor influence from refugees at all.

I was referring to Greeks overall, or those in Macedonia more specifically.

[Coolguy1]

I was referring to Greeks overall, or those in Macedonia more specifically.

Im not sure what your point is. Greek islanders and Anatolians are distinct populations from Macedonian Greeks on gedmatch.

[Sikeliot]

I was referring to Greeks overall, or those in Macedonia more specifically.

Most Macedonians do not have that input either.