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Melki
03-28-2017, 08:35 PM
The European Union has just turned 60, and has never been so close to its end.

In March 1957, the Treaty of Rome was signed, establishing the European Economic Community (EEC). Its founding Fathers (Schuman, Spaak, Adenauer etc...), representing 6 Western European countries (Belgium, France, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands and West Germany), still cared about WW2 and its atrocities. In a world splitted in two antagonistic camps because of the Cold War, the European continent risked at every moment to become a new battleground, with the permanent threat represented by the nuclear fire.
A common market for coal and steel was the first step to prevent an arms race and a new large-scale conflict in Europe. But it was also the beginning of an integration project which final aim was the creation of a free trade zone and the progressive access of new members to a federal and pacified social Europe.

Thanks to the Common Agricultural Policy, Europe, which farms were small-sized (7 hectares on average against 200 for America) ceased to depend on American agricultural imports and achieved food self-sufficiency. Agriculture techniques in southern Italy, which were rudimentary and had remained unchanged for centuries, were modernized thanks to EEC funding programmes.

The EEC guaranteed the free movement of goods, capital, services and people in a ever-growing Europe without customs barrier, a federal entity progressively including new members.
The Schengen Area abolished passport and border controls.

Next step of integration was 1997, 40 years after the Treaty of Rome, when the Treaty of Maastricht was signed. It was the birth of the European Union and the Stability and Growth Pact. Europe decided to set sail in a new direction: the regulated free market.
Euro, the common European currency, was created, under the strict control of the ECB and German financial policy. That's when things took a bad turn, with an extreme bureaucratization of the European institutions, the unending debate on Turkey's accession to the EU, the Euro debt crisis affecting the Southern European economies, the migrant crisis leading to Brexit and the rise of anti-EU populist movements.

The 6 most Europhile EU-members are respectively Romania, the Republic of Ireland, Lithuania, Bulgaria, Poland and Luxembourg, the 3 most Euro-skeptical being Cyprus, Greece and Austria.

For my own part, as a Euromutt (and proud to be), I've always believed in a border-free, federal and united Europe. To be honest, I feel more European than French. It's a major component of my identity.
Moreover, I think that countries like France or Germany would be unsignificant outside the European Union, in a world dominated by long-established or emerging superpowers like the USA, China, Russia, India or Brazil...The United Kingdom may soon realize its mistake.
I'm fully aware that the EU is very sick, but dismantling it would lead us into a dead-end. What the EU needs is a deep reformation and find back the original spirit of peace and cooperation, not greed and competition, among peoples, as dreamt by the Founding Fathers.

What's your opinion, do you still believe in the future of the EU?

catgeorge
03-28-2017, 08:37 PM
People from my village will leave E.U in a heartbeat and let west europeans do their own thing away from us.

Zephyrus
03-28-2017, 08:40 PM
Totally pro Europe, and totally anti-EU.

Ülev
03-28-2017, 08:43 PM
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/be/Union_for_the_Mediterranean_Logo.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_for_the_Mediterranean

Zephyrus
03-28-2017, 08:47 PM
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/be/Union_for_the_Mediterranean_Logo.png
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Union_for_the_Mediterranean:D

What's this?
Some kind of NEO-Non-Aligned Movement?

Mikula
03-28-2017, 08:48 PM
I am afraid of disintegration of the EU, but one had to be reformed to survive.
IMHO, there is nothing like an European nation.

Ülev
03-28-2017, 08:52 PM
:D

What's this?
Some kind of NEO-Non-Aligned Movement?
could be an old idea, with new knowledge about Africa's oil and gas, so Russia can start to worry



https://youtu.be/f5s4ywsCFAI

The Atlantropa proposal to dam the Strait of Gibraltar. Every description of the idea starts with the appeal of a tremendous electric power source. As demonstrated by the Lago Mare event, the Mediterranean operates as a net water sink, due to low rainfall and high insolation. Water flowing through the Strait of Gibraltar (and the Bosporus, Nile, etc.) are required in order to prevent the sea level from falling rapidly. The strait of Gibraltar is only 14 kilometers across at its narrowest point, and about 300 meters deep on average.

MissMischief
03-28-2017, 10:07 PM
The EU is good in my opinion: free trade and free movement of labour don't have many negatives, and we need some way of competing with larger exporters such as the USA anyway.

I would say the issue is more the eurozone within the EU which has shown for some time it isn't sustainable.

Freeroostah
03-28-2017, 10:10 PM
Fuck the EU and its liberal ideas
Why should my country get orders by the Brussels?

Zephyrus
03-28-2017, 10:10 PM
The EU is good in my opinion: free trade and free movement of labour don't have many negatives, and we need some way of competing with larger exporters such as the USA anyway.

I would say the issue is more the eurozone within the EU which has shown for some time it isn't sustainable.What about hyper-bureaucracy?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JtEkUmYecnk

Melki
03-29-2017, 12:46 PM
bump

wvwvw
03-29-2017, 01:01 PM
Against a pro-Germanic EU

Ryujin
03-29-2017, 01:07 PM
The EU is a must to counter US expansionism.

Antimage
03-29-2017, 01:14 PM
The concept of EU itself is good. But I don't like the direction it is heading to ; centralization, reduction of individual country's power and say in things, forcing their leftist point of view everywhere even where it's not wanted. That kind of attitude got the brits out of EU.

RN97
03-29-2017, 01:16 PM
The EU is a must to counter US expansionism.
The shit is in bed with US expansionism, what are you on about fam?

Ryujin
03-29-2017, 01:20 PM
The shit is in bed with US expansionism, what are you on about fam?

The US would never want a united Europe. In the previous wars; European countries fought and ruined each other; only the US emerged powerful because they sold goods and fixed their economy. If the EU collapses this division will only cater to US interests.

RN97
03-29-2017, 01:23 PM
The US would never want a united Europe. In the previous wars; European countries fought and ruined each other; only the US emerged powerful because they sold goods and fixed their economy. If the EU collapses this division will only cater to US interests.

I just don't see it. The EU is part of the US empire in Europe. All of America's "enemies" in Europe are outside of the EU and all their friends are in the EU. How many EU countries are not in NATO?
The only argument for the EU is more economic. To compete with the US in economic ways, but the EU would never go against US interest. Look how fast they jumped on the "fuck Russia" bandwagon after the US did so.

Philip Latinowitz
03-29-2017, 01:27 PM
Decentralized EU based on common market/strictly economic Union -yes
EU federation / United States of Europe- hell no

Ryujin
03-29-2017, 01:28 PM
I just don't see it. The EU is part of the US empire in Europe. All of America's "enemies" in Europe are outside of the EU and all their friends are in the EU. How many EU countries are not in NATO?
The only argument for the EU is more economic. To compete with the US in economic ways, but the EU would never go against US interest. Look how fast they jumped on the "fuck Russia" bandwagon after the US did so.

Russia is also an expansionist power and therefore a threat just like the US; it's not a surprise that EU stands up against Russia.

The Illyrian Warrior
03-29-2017, 01:31 PM
Pro EU, against Soviet style Russian expansion of any kind.

Root
03-29-2017, 01:35 PM
1) If non-EU is good for native population, then I'm pro. If non-EU is bad for native population, then I'm anti.
2) If EU is good for native population, then I'm pro. If EU is bad for native population, then I'm anti.

My eventual vote goes for neutral, since I have no clue how many things work inside their current policy

Mazik
03-29-2017, 01:35 PM
Anti, like most people here. In the referendum back then it was close to 50-50, but a lot of people regret their choice. EU had the biggest support by older people, and many of them are dead by now.

In my electoral district 93% were against it ;)

Desperado
03-29-2017, 01:50 PM
Absolutaly pro, although it needs a major overhaul. I believe that abandoning ship at the first sign of trouble after 60 years of hard work to get to the point that we are is extremely dumb, other than cowardly. And no I am not talking about the UK (as they were never really a part) but the central block of the founding countries (Belgium, France, Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg). Imagine where these 6 would be nowadays without the policies of free trade, movement, sharing of knowledge...

Era
03-29-2017, 01:53 PM
Absolutaly pro,...

What do you think about accusations that Germany is taking advantage of smaller/weaker members?

Antimage
03-29-2017, 01:53 PM
Absolutaly pro, although it needs a major overhaul. I believe that abandoning ship at the first sign of trouble after 60 years of hard work to get to the point that we are is extremely dumb, other than cowardly. And no I am not talking about the UK (as they were never really a part) but the central block of the founding countries (Belgium, France, Netherlands, Germany, Italy, Luxembourg). Imagine where these 6 would be nowadays without the policies of free trade, movement, sharing of knowledge...

what overhaul does it need

Melki
03-29-2017, 02:02 PM
I just don't see it. The EU is part of the US empire in Europe. All of America's "enemies" in Europe are outside of the EU and all their friends are in the EU. How many EU countries are not in NATO?
The only argument for the EU is more economic. To compete with the US in economic ways, but the EU would never go against US interest. Look how fast they jumped on the "fuck Russia" bandwagon after the US did so.

I don't think so. Trump was in favor of Brexit, and he would like the EU to break up. Don't forget his campaign slogans were "Make America great again" and "America first". He would like a competitor like the EU to be eliminated.
And NATO is NOT the EU. Besides, although NATO is America's baby, Trump shows little interest for the defense of Europe. It's still too early to seriously talk about a united European army, that's why Europe must still rely on NATO, but this isn't enough, and each European nation must increase its military spending if we wish to have competitive European armed forces. Stuck between an ambitious Putin and an isolationist Trump, a united Europe is more than ever the best alternative.

Desperado
03-29-2017, 02:03 PM
What do you think about accusations that Germany is taking advantage of smaller/weaker members?

They are absolutely founded. The German government is straight up leeching off of the other economies in the EU. The people of Germany are being fed lies and propaganda, most of the ones who are informed about this issue are disgusted by it because this kind of behaviour goes against their mentality.


what overhaul does it need

A choice of direction, rather than a change. It looks like the heads of the Union don't really know what they want. Is it going to be a merely economic union or is it going to transform into a federal state where the decisions of the single regions are limited to internal politics only? I don't have a problem with either, but at the moment it's just a bad mish mash of the two and it sure doesn't look like this situation is going to hold.

Antimage
03-29-2017, 02:33 PM
What do you think about accusations that Germany is taking advantage of smaller/weaker members?


Why not save even more – for example, the billions in E.U. structural funds that go to Poland and Hungary, since those two countries refuse to take in refugees?

Budgetary policy shouldn’t be used to impose political penalties. The structural funds are for making weak regions more competitive. And a large part of every euro the E.U. gives Poland comes back to Germany. The Poles use the money to place orders with the German construction industry, to buy German machines and German trucks. So net contributors such as Germany should be interested in the structural funds. From an economic perspective, Germany isn’t a net contributor but a net recipient.

https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/oettinger-germany-may-have-to-pay-more-to-e-u-714934

Desperado
03-29-2017, 02:43 PM
https://global.handelsblatt.com/politics/oettinger-germany-may-have-to-pay-more-to-e-u-714934

fortunately at least this (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milk_quota) has been abolished.

Gizem
03-29-2017, 02:52 PM
Pro.

Tacitus
03-29-2017, 02:57 PM
Eurosceptic since I'm generally against excessive centralization. I think the single currency adoption should have never happened and it's a big reason why the EU is in the bind that it's in.


They are absolutely founded. The German government is straight up leeching off of the other economies in the EU. The people of Germany are being fed lies and propaganda, most of the ones who are informed about this issue are disgusted by it because this kind of behaviour goes against their mentality.

I remember my dad making the half-joking comment that the Germans always wanted control of Europe, and now they got what they wished for (at a price).

Melki
03-29-2017, 03:04 PM
Anti, like most people here. In the referendum back then it was close to 50-50, but a lot of people regret their choice. EU had the biggest support by older people, and many of them are dead by now.

In my electoral district 93% were against it ;)

I don't know about Sweden, but in the UK, most voters in favour of Brexit were retired people, living in the countryside or in little towns, whereas pro-EU were mostly young, urban and educated. Several tudies in different EU-countries have shown that the educated masses tend to support the EU.

TheGoldenSon
03-29-2017, 03:26 PM
It needs to be reformed and cultural marxists must be removed from power, but the EU is probably the best thing which has happened to this continent in centuries. Both for the average Joe and businesses. No great wars happened on European soil for nearly three quarters of century, there is one massive market covering the entirety of the continent with movement of good, peoples and ideas.

Only a fool with no knowledge of history would want the days of Franco-German wars back.

Mazik
03-30-2017, 02:49 AM
I don't know about Sweden, but in the UK, most voters in favour of Brexit were retired people, living in the countryside or in little towns, whereas pro-EU were mostly young, urban and educated. Several tudies in different EU-countries have shown that the educated masses tend to support the EU.

Old people were the most favour of EU here, because they thought it was a peace project. They remembered the WW2 and the cold war and wanted the European nations to come closer together.

For me it doesn't matter if educated people are the most pro-EU. Because, as you know, every citizen has just one vote each, no matter if you are a factory worker or a professor.

catgeorge
03-30-2017, 07:45 AM
You can have free trade and free movement without central banks and financial institutions dictating terms.

The organisations that make big decisions are not even elected by the people so its not even democratic, nor is it a republican system. It is opportunistic system for usurers to prey on the weak to artificially deflate currency exchange to make exports more attractive. It is a highly propagandistic and manipulative system. Banks and financial systems in the E.U can not lose... where the whole place needs a good ol' Lehmen event to cleanse the trash of this stench

Ryujin
03-30-2017, 10:30 PM
The support is surprisingly higher considering the general atmosphere in this forum.

Melki
03-31-2017, 05:48 PM
A speech that makes sense: Esteban González Pons (Spanish Popular Party - Conservative) at the European Parliament.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBHbghJJVGU

“Europe is not a market, it is the will to live together. Leaving Europe is not leaving a market, it is leaving shared dreams. We can have a common market, but if we do not have common dreams, we have nothing. Europe is the peace that came after the disaster of war. Europe is the pardon between French and Germans. Europe is the return to freedom of Greece, Spain and Portugal. Europe is the fall of the Berlin Wall. Europe is the end of communism. Europe is the welfare state, it is democracy,”

catgeorge
04-01-2017, 09:02 PM
Europe a Democracy I have hard it all - so which Greek voted for Schauble, Djisebloom so they can dictate terms?

Dragoon
06-10-2017, 02:06 AM
Im against all Globalist organizations:

UN, EU, NATO, etc, etc.

if you want to know the origins and future of EU read this:

http://www.eurocanadian.ca/2015/02/ideological-and-geopolitical-origins-of-eu-richard-von-coudenhove-kalergis-pan-europa.html

(just keep in mind that the social values have changed because of the counter revolution of 1960s).

Wilhelm O.
06-17-2017, 11:12 PM
Pro european unity, but the EU itself has to be reformed from ground up. Right now it's inefficient and blatantly incompetent of managing the bulk of the First World. I believe it is so by design, so the current regime has to be forcefully replaced with more suitable, either democratically elected, or atleast qualified visionaries, willing to secure the existence of European People and a future for european children.

Lavrentis
06-17-2017, 11:19 PM
Pro-EU.

Magnolia
06-18-2017, 01:24 AM
Of course pro. If Europe want to stay competitive to China, India, US - it has to be united on some level.

JohnSmith
06-18-2017, 01:27 AM
I am not sure but I do not think it is for everyone. I do think they need to change the way they disburse money in a more equitable way. It will only work with a fiscal union along with the monetary union. That way a Crisis like in Greece would be easier to handle.

Dandelion
06-18-2017, 12:00 PM
I see no alternative, but you won't see me waving EU-flags because of that. Colonial empires are no more and we need to remain competitive.

Voskos
06-18-2017, 12:03 PM
pro-EU. Greece is too small to survive alone in such an unstable neighbourhood.

Jana
06-18-2017, 12:21 PM
I find more positive things being part of the EU than to stay out of it.

Mortimer
06-18-2017, 12:37 PM
Pro

♥ Lily ♥
06-18-2017, 12:39 PM
Pro European democracy and the right to elect the people who will govern our own nations, rather than having unelected EU presidents in foreign nations dictating most of our laws in the EU parliament in Brussels.

Pro European nations right to have their own sovereignty and independence and the right to control their own immigration laws, the right to our own fishing laws, and the right to allow for nations across Europe to be free to do more global trade outside of the EU's restrictive economic prison.

Eurosceptic. Anti EU and their corrupt big one government control over 500 million Europeans and the Islamisation of EU states by the bully-boys and bankers in Brussels who are ruling over Europe.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_K8CL8HzFo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Yzf6zWvg84

purrr21
06-18-2017, 12:40 PM
Anti, since they force some countries to do what they don't want to ( for example taking refugees)

Pennywise
06-18-2017, 12:52 PM
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/3a/0f/38/3a0f3800e1fb8f8eaefae0805bf063ee.jpg

♥ Lily ♥
06-18-2017, 01:01 PM
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/3a/0f/38/3a0f3800e1fb8f8eaefae0805bf063ee.jpg

Switzerland, Norway, and Iceland are independent nations and are free from the EUSSR states too.

DarkSecret
06-18-2017, 01:03 PM
I am pro-EU yeah long live EU! One day we will sing Ode to Joy too on every Monday and Friday!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jo_-KoBiBG0

Numidia
07-16-2017, 04:39 PM
I see no alternative, but you won't see me waving EU-flags because of that. Colonial empires are no more and we need to remain competitive.

I wonder what can replace the plunder of Africa


I don't know about Sweden, but in the UK, most voters in favour of Brexit were retired people, living in the countryside or in little towns, whereas pro-EU were mostly young, urban and educated. Several tudies in different EU-countries have shown that the educated masses tend to support the EU.

I think UK have a future even without european union

BassmanPL
07-16-2017, 05:02 PM
Here's an interesting film which explains true ideological roots EU and why we should consider this organization as a treat. It's goal is to make totalitarian state.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mf5A1y5qYp0

CaptainAntiMurica
07-16-2017, 05:11 PM
Anti-EU. They are fucking over La Madre Patria (Spain) and it's a puppet of USA/England. I'll celebrate when the EU dies.

Insuperable
07-16-2017, 05:13 PM
Definitely anti-EU.

Melki
07-16-2017, 05:15 PM
I think UK have a future even without european union

The UK is in its waning days. British will pay a salty bill for Brexit: a negative impact on business, more debt, weaker growth. The Brits will have to spend 25 billions € to leave the EU. And the USA, like their Anglo-Saxon partners, chose the way of withdrawal (Trans-Pacific Partnership representing 40% of world trade, Paris agreement on climate change)and protectionism.
In the West, the new golden ticket of free-trade is more than ever the French-German couple (it's not a coincidence if Mr. Donald Trump prefered France over Britain for his first visit to Europe). And in the East, the supreme champions of globalization are now the Xhinese.

Sink, Britannia ! Long live Europe!

brennus dux gallorum
07-16-2017, 05:22 PM
To begin with, I don't think eu is near its end, the opposite, in the end of global crisis eu will be the strongest superpower in the world, and I bet that even British will beg to re-enter

As for my opinion, unlike my countrymen who have always been among the most fanatic supporters of it, I am neutral to anti-, however, the only alternative of my country would be a southern union, but we know that this is impossible, and realistically, it's hard to survive with all this garbage surrounding us :(

Autrigón
07-16-2017, 05:23 PM
If I could I would provoke an earthquake in the Pyrenees to separate the Iberian Peninsula from Europe and convert Iberia in an island in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.

ProEuropa
07-16-2017, 05:24 PM
I am not against a Pan-European state or collaboration. The only condition I have for it is that it is run by Europeans, is in favor of Europeans and is autonomous, free from any American or Israeli influence. So at the moment, I am anti-EU, though the concept is not bad.

Lessenech
07-16-2017, 05:26 PM
EU is next level garbage lawyers on the payroll of lobby groups. But when you look at what current Europeans are, garbage like Melki for instance, I can't but feel the EU is just what they deserve. So while I won't deny I would feel a sense of glee seeing Brussels blow up in smoke after a terror attack, it's rather just justice for urbanite Westerners to get undone by it for their vices. Just De Maistre's wisdom really, that is the govt they deserve.

Numidia
07-16-2017, 05:26 PM
The UK is in its waning days. British will pay a salty bill for Brexit: a negative impact on business, more debt, weaker growth. The Brits will have to spend 25 billions € to leave the EU. And the USA, like their Anglo-Saxon partners, chose the way of withdrawal (Trans-Pacific Partnership representing 40% of world trade, Paris agreement on climate change)and protectionism.
In the West, the new golden ticket of free-trade is more than ever the French-German couple (it's not a coincidence if Mr. Donald Trump prefered France over Britain for his first visit to Europe). And in the East, the supreme champions of globalization are now the Xhinese.

Sink, Britannia ! Long live Europe!

only pro-eu medias mention the 25 billions and EU running lack of transparency

Melki
07-16-2017, 05:36 PM
EU is next level garbage lawyers on the payroll of lobby groups. But when you look at what current Europeans are, garbage like Melki for instance, I can't but feel the EU is just what they deserve. So while I won't deny I would feel a sense of glee seeing Brussels blow up in smoke after a terror attack, it's rather just justice for urbanite Westerners to get undone by it for their vices. Just De Maistre's wisdom really, that is the govt they deserve.

You are the garbage, Baluarte. Why do you insist in opening sock accounts?




only pro-eu medias mention the 25 billions and EU running lack of transparency

This estimation will soon be confirmed by pure facts.

Lessenech
07-16-2017, 05:36 PM
If I could I would provoke an earthquake in the Pyrenees to separate the Iberian Peninsula from Europe and convert Iberia in an island in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.

+1 I agree. But have to close the airports and ports, after having deported the Brit retirees and other assorted Westernizing influences.
Sakoku for Spain.

Lessenech
07-16-2017, 05:43 PM
You are the garbage, Baluarte. Why do you insist in opening sock accounts?



I have one account, this one. In online forums one needs an account to submit a post.
Stop off topic.

oturaN
07-28-2017, 10:50 AM
I'm totally pro European Union. Sorry, but only unity is a key to prosperity and advance. Splitting into small "i-do-care-only-about-my-self-please-go-away-leave-my-buisness-alone" seems like a good way to live only to short-sighted people. In my personal opinion (well, based on facts from https://warsawinstitute.org/) times when everything was build on differences passed by irretrievably. People should focus more on how to cooperate with others - this is a way to build more in this world.

SSlava
07-28-2017, 11:00 AM
I think the EU resembles a new empire (similar to the Roman one) in Europe))?

States of course lose their independence. But there are a lot of very small states in Europe. Maybe it's good that they unite.
Only, as in ancient Rome, they spread homosexuality))?

Similarly, the EU's policy is dependent on the US, and they therefore follow a hostile policy towards Russia.

Loki
07-28-2017, 11:06 AM
I'm actually beginning to think that a strong and powerful EU is absolutely essential to world peace.. because it would form a counterweight to American hegemony. A strong and confident EU won't always want to dance to American tunes. Thank God for that.

Loki
07-28-2017, 11:08 AM
Similarly, the EU's policy is dependent on the US, and they therefore follow a hostile policy towards Russia.

Yes, but hopefully this would change in the future. A strong Russia is beneficial for European stability, and they are beginning to realise that.

Graham
07-28-2017, 11:10 AM
Yeah I voted to leave it, but I'm not that anti EU compared to some. Partly my vote was to stop UKIP growing into a power in England. The UK and EU aren't that different of a concept to me.

There are too many different economies and cultures in the EU to be stable long term.


I'm actually beginning to think that a strong and powerful EU is absolutely essential to world peace.. because it would form a counterweight to American hegemony. A strong and confident EU won't always want to dance to American tunes. Thank God for that.

That's a good point. It does help balance things a bit internationally.

Autrigón
07-28-2017, 11:38 AM
I'm totally pro European Union. Sorry, but only unity is a key to prosperity and advance. Splitting into small "i-do-care-only-about-my-self-please-go-away-leave-my-buisness-alone" seems like a good way to live only to short-sighted people. In my personal opinion (well, based on facts from https://warsawinstitute.org/) times when everything was build on differences passed by irretrievably. People should focus more on how to cooperate with others - this is a way to build more in this world.Yes, tell that to Greeks...