View Full Version : R1a diversity in Balkans
Philip Latinowitz
03-29-2017, 03:18 PM
R1a has lower frequencies in south-eastern Europe than in north-eastern Europe but at the same time unusual STR diversity exist among Balkan R1a.
I2-dinaric on the other hand has higher frequencies in European south-east than elsewhere in Europe but much lower diversity.
Historically, no other part of Europe was invaded a higher number of times by steppe peoples than the Balkans. Chronologically, the first R1a invaders came with the westward expansion of the Yamna culture (from 4200 BCE), a succession of steppe migrations that lasted about 2000 years. Then came the Thracians (1500 BCE), followed by the Illyrians (around 1200 BCE), the Huns and the Alans (400 CE), the Avars, the Bulgars and the Serbs (all around 600 CE), and the Magyars (900 CE), among others. These peoples originated from different parts of the Eurasian steppes, anywhere between Eastern Europe and Central Asia, which is why such high STR diversity is found within Balkanic R1a nowadays. It is not yet possible to determine the ethnic origin for each variety of R1a, apart from the fact that about any R1a is associated with tribes from Eurasian steppe at one point in history.
Localization of the ancestral haplogroup R1a1 is still controversial. Presumably, it originated in Eurasia. Today, there are two centers of its highest concentration - in North India and the Ukraine, as well as in the south of Russia. On the one hand, the high frequency of occurrence can be observed in any region with a large population, on the other hand its highest diversity is observed in the Balkans.
What is the explanation for this ? Does it mean R1a was brought to the region by various groups from ancient Greeks, Thraco-Illyrians, Turkic Bulgars, Avars, and finally Slavs ?
Philip Latinowitz
03-30-2017, 08:37 AM
bump
Interesting topic to discuss IMHO
catgeorge
03-30-2017, 08:58 AM
Ancient Greeks only named a handful of races that lived in Europe in 800BC
Greeks, Thracians, Scythians, Celts, Italics, Phoenecians, Africans, Persians
For example
Balkan people mabe a mixture of Thracian and Scythian
German people maybe a mixture of Celt and Scythian
French people maybe a mixture of Celt and Italic
etc
I do not think the people of 800BC was so complex as Europe was under populated
Voskos
04-25-2017, 07:10 PM
INTRIGUING
Turkminator
04-25-2017, 07:13 PM
The Turkish presence in the Balkans dates back to an earlier period than that of the Ottoman era. R1a is the sufficient proof of this fact, my friends.
Antimage
04-25-2017, 07:24 PM
Fuck haplogroups.
In parallel, the traces of the ancient R1b carriers are found in the Balkans (4,050 ± 890 BP), separately in Slovenia (4,050 ± 540 BP), and Italy (4,125 ± 500 BP). That was the beginning of the Türkic languages' time in Europe, and the disappearance there of the Europe “Proto-Indo-European” haplogroup R1a1, which populated Europe from the 10th millennium BC.
from:
https://youtu.be/x7yqdvqBmY8
Voskos
04-25-2017, 07:27 PM
from:
https://youtu.be/x7yqdvqBmY8
lol
Bosniensis
04-25-2017, 07:33 PM
R1a has lower frequencies in south-eastern Europe than in north-eastern Europe but at the same time unusual STR diversity exist among Balkan R1a.
I2-dinaric on the other hand has higher frequencies in European south-east than elsewhere in Europe but much lower diversity.
What is the explanation for this ? Does it mean R1a was brought to the region by various groups from ancient Greeks, Thraco-Illyrians, Turkic Bulgars, Avars, and finally Slavs ?
Isn't it amazing how hard is to uncover the mysteries of balkans?
Not so long ago we (Bosniaks) were called Turkish-leftover ... but nowdays it has been scientifically proven that we are Not.
We have gained a lot from Y-DNA research :P
Shah-Jehan
04-25-2017, 07:35 PM
The Turkish presence in the Balkans dates back to an earlier period than that of the Ottoman era. R1a is the sufficient proof of this fact, my friends.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx8hrhBZJ98
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 07:36 PM
Most South Slavs seem to be part of the Slavic clusters of R1a. Although Illyrians and Thracians did have R1a and R1b clusters as they were Indo-Europeans and other haplogroups like E-V13 and J2b2/J2a were absorbed by the original Indo-European Illyrians and Thracians so in short Illyrians and Thracians were originally R1a and R1b just like other Indo-European populations
Bosniensis
04-25-2017, 07:54 PM
Most South Slavs seem to be part of the Slavic clusters of R1a. Although Illyrians and Thracians did have R1a and R1b clusters as they were Indo-Europeans and other haplogroups like E-V13 and J2b2/J2a were absorbed by the original Indo-European Illyrians and Thracians so in short Illyrians and Thracians were originally R1a and R1b just like other Indo-European populations
How can Bosnians be part of R1a when 60% in average are I2,
R1a are predominantly Slovenians, and people from North-Eastern Serbia, and reason
for that are Slavic Migrations obviously.
On the other hand:
People from Southern Serbia are E-V13 predominantly just like Kosovars.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 07:56 PM
How can Bosnians be part of R1a when 60% in average are I2,
R1a are predominantly Slovenians, and people from North-Eastern Serbia, and reason
for that are Slavic Migrations obviously.
On the other hand:
People from Southern Serbia are E-V13 predominantly just like Kosovars.
I said that the R1a that south Slavs belong to is the Slavic cluster just like how they belong to the Slavic cluster of I2a
Voskos
04-25-2017, 08:00 PM
many of my autosomal dna relatives belong to the slavic clusters
Deymark
04-25-2017, 08:02 PM
How can Bosnians be part of R1a when 60% in average are I2,
R1a are predominantly Slovenians, and people from North-Eastern Serbia, and reason
for that are Slavic Migrations obviously.
On the other hand:
People from Southern Serbia are E-V13 predominantly just like Kosovars.
You are clueless.
Ottomans moved a lot of Muslim Albanians(arnaut) in South Serbia,because those places where left vacant by Serbs migating towards North.Most of northern Serbs are Medieval Kosovars,so norther Serbs are actually the most "Southern" Serbs as most of today's southern serbs migrants from central Serbia.
Bosniensis
04-25-2017, 08:04 PM
I said that the R1a that south Slavs belong to is the Slavic cluster just like how they belong to the Slavic cluster of I2a
I2a are probably Celts from Gaul who fled from Frankish occupation in 4th-5th century.
I2a is certainly Not Slavic.
Bosniaks are mixture of Illyrian-Celtic ancient tribes while Serbs are Illyrian-Thracian (Triballians).
Romans used to call us Illyrians no matter the details.
Bosniensis
04-25-2017, 08:05 PM
You are clueless.
Ottomans moved a lot of Muslim Albanians(arnaut) in South Serbia,because those places where left vacant by Serbs migating towards North.Most of northern Serbs are Medieval Kosovars,so norther Serbs are actually the most "Southern" Serbs as most of today's southern serbs migrants from central Serbia.
I don't think you are wrong either, could be truth. I have a little knowledge of Albanians.
The Destroyer
04-25-2017, 08:05 PM
I said that the R1a that south Slavs belong to is the Slavic cluster just like how they belong to the Slavic cluster of I2a
There is no Slavic cluster of I2a. Read a book.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 08:06 PM
I2a are probably Celts from Gaul who fled from Frankish occupation in 4th-5th century.
I2a is certainly Not Slavic.
Ummm no. Celts hardly had I2a, they were mainly R1b
Bosniensis
04-25-2017, 08:08 PM
Ummm no. Celts hardly had I2a, they were mainly R1b
What?
R1b are Frankish conquerors of Gaul
R1b are Lombard conquerors of Italy
Those are Germanic peoples.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 08:09 PM
There is no Slavic cluster of I2a. Read a book.
How many times do I have to tell you the same thing over and over again? I2a-Din is a Slavic marker, you are the one that needs to read updated books and sources as your still fapping over the 2014, 2015 etc theory on I2a-Din being Illyrian lol, this theory has been debunked now
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 08:10 PM
What?
R1b are Frankish conquerors of Gaul
R1b are Lombard conquerors of Italy
Those are Germanic peoples.
Celts were mainly R1b
Laberia
04-25-2017, 08:11 PM
You are clueless.
Ottomans moved a lot of Muslim Albanians(arnaut) in South Serbia,because those places where left vacant by Serbs migating towards North.Most of northern Serbs are Medieval Kosovars,so norther Serbs are actually the most "Southern" Serbs as most of today's southern serbs migrants from central Serbia.
Do you have any document to prove that Ottomans moved Albanians in South servia? Because is well documented the ethnic cleansing of Albanians from their native lands in today South servia.
Deymark
04-25-2017, 08:11 PM
How many times do I have to tell you the same thing over and over again? I2a-Din is a Slavic marker, you are the one that needs to read updated books and sources as your still fapping over the 2014, 2015 etc theory on I2a-Din being Illyrian lol, this theory has been debunked now
i2a-din is not slavic marker, there is no actual proof for this, just obsolete theories from albanians.
In balkans I2a-din is located in the mountains, while R1a in plains, so I2a-din exists before slavs, because steppe people never settle in mountains.
Laberia
04-25-2017, 08:12 PM
When i read a couple of posts here, to my mind came this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIazx4OeWYc
Bosniensis
04-25-2017, 08:12 PM
Celts were mainly R1b
Yeah right they were... Franks have slaughtered 90% of Celtic populace in Gaul,
Saxons have slaughtered everything in Britain.
They were not nice people.
Also you have a research somewhere explained that I2 was presented in a large %
in Ancient Gaul.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 08:13 PM
I2a are probably Celts from Gaul who fled from Frankish occupation in 4th-5th century.
I2a is certainly Not Slavic.
Bosniaks are mixture of Illyrian-Celtic ancient tribes while Serbs are Illyrian-Thracian (Triballians).
Romans used to call us Illyrians no matter the details.
No they didn't. The Illyrian movement of South Slavs was far later and it had no genetic or cultural basis, it was all geographical and political
IncelSlayer
04-25-2017, 08:13 PM
How many times do I have to tell you the same thing over and over again? I2a-Din is a Slavic marker, you are the one that needs to read updated books and sources as your still fapping over the 2014, 2015 etc theory on I2a-Din being Illyrian lol, this theory has been debunked now
>I2A-din is a slavic marker.
Were it says so?
However,theres no point arguing ,the facts are that I2 and slavic phenotypes are inversely related
Voskos
04-25-2017, 08:13 PM
When i read a couple of posts here, to my mind came this :
gomar fluturon
Laberia
04-25-2017, 08:14 PM
I don't think you are wrong either, could be truth. I have a little knowledge of Albanians.
Then avoid to spread BS about us in this forum.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 08:14 PM
>I2A-din is a slavic marker.
Were it says so?
However,theres no point arguing ,the facts are that I2 and slavic phenotypes are inversely related
It's a Slavic marker now but it was probably of Germanic origin before that
Deymark
04-25-2017, 08:14 PM
Do you have any document to prove that Ottomans moved Albanians in South servia? Because is well documented the ethnic cleansing of Albanians from their native lands in today South servia.
Yes, sure , the censuses speak clearly enough.No albanian existed in Kosovo before serbs lost at Kosovopolije.
Throughout the Ottoman Era Albanians expanded well into Kosovo, assimilating and driving out Serbs, mostly in the 17th century - when Arsenius Carnojevic led 36 000 ethnically cleansed Serbian families out of Kosovo. This process was a continuation of the ethnic cleansing Albanians had commited against Serbs since the EARLY DARK AGE expansions north of the Shkumbi.
Laberia
04-25-2017, 08:14 PM
gomar fluturon
Yes my friend.
Deymark
04-25-2017, 08:15 PM
It's a Slavic marker now but it was probably of Germanic origin before that
This has no logic.Its like saying arabs from france are ethnic french.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 08:15 PM
Yeah right they were... Franks have slaughtered 90% of Celtic populace in Gaul,
Saxons have slaughtered everything in Britain.
They were not nice people.
Also you have a research somewhere explained that I2 was presented in a large %
in Ancient Gaul.
And most studies show that Celts were mainly R1b
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 08:17 PM
This has no logic.Its like saying arabs from france are ethnic french.
This is the same for every other haplogroup. I2a-Din was assimilated into the Slavic ethnogenisis which is why it is considered Slavic but it isn't Slavic if you go further back
Laberia
04-25-2017, 08:17 PM
Yes, sure , the censuses speak clearly enough.No albanian existed in Kosovo before serbs lost at Kosovopolije.
Throughout the Ottoman Era Albanians expanded well into Kosovo, assimilating and driving out Serbs, mostly in the 17th century - when Arsenius Carnojevic led 36 000 ethnically cleansed Serbian families out of Kosovo. This process was a continuation of the ethnic cleansing Albanians had commited against Serbs since the EARLY DARK AGE expansions north of the Shkumbi.
I asked about documents. And i am talking not about Kosova, but about South servia.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 08:19 PM
Yes, sure , the censuses speak clearly enough.No albanian existed in Kosovo before serbs lost at Kosovopolije.
Throughout the Ottoman Era Albanians expanded well into Kosovo, assimilating and driving out Serbs, mostly in the 17th century - when Arsenius Carnojevic led 36 000 ethnically cleansed Serbian families out of Kosovo. This process was a continuation of the ethnic cleansing Albanians had commited against Serbs since the EARLY DARK AGE expansions north of the Shkumbi.
Albanians originate north of the Shkumbin. Or did you say this as I don't quite get what you are saying?
Bosniensis
04-25-2017, 08:21 PM
And most studies show that Celts were mainly R1b
Those studies are probably made by Germans or French people who (just like you) want to prove they are native citizens of France (Gaul).
So you say to me: "Here are the studies signed by some German fellow" .. no they will never tell you "Hey we have slaughtered Celts"
Romans knew who they were so they have helped Turks at Manzikert against them.
Actually, you can't conduct a proper research today without consulting a Roman Scriptures.
Laberia
04-25-2017, 08:22 PM
Albanians originate north of the Shkumbin. Or did you say this as I don't quite get what you are saying?
Albanians did not originated somewhere in North of Shkumbin. Albanians are autocthonus in their land.
Coolguy1
04-25-2017, 08:24 PM
I asked about documents. And i am talking not about Kosova, but about South servia.
https://www.scribd.com/mobile/document/200661435/Selami-Pulaha-Defteri-i-regjistrimit-te-Sanxhakut-te-Shkodres-i-vitit-1485
Enjoy
Peterski
04-25-2017, 08:24 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qx8hrhBZJ98
^^^ But do you have his GEDmatch kit number ??? :confused:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xKBL2mrctGI
^^^ She is among my Mixed Inuit samples from GEDmatch:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?208626-Canadian-Inuits-in-Eurogenes-K36&p=4368160&viewfull=1#post4368160
Laberia
04-25-2017, 08:27 PM
https://www.scribd.com/mobile/document/200661435/Selami-Pulaha-Defteri-i-regjistrimit-te-Sanxhakut-te-Shkodres-i-vitit-1485
Enjoy
I have read it. What you want to prove with this?
Peterski
04-25-2017, 08:30 PM
Never post throat singers without knowing their GEDmatch kit numbers... :picard1:
Laberia
04-25-2017, 08:30 PM
gomar fluturon
You know my friend, always concentrated with firomski and Alexander The Great, we forgot for a moment Bato the Daesitiate.
Coolguy1
04-25-2017, 08:31 PM
I have read it. What you want to prove with this?
Dont you see that almost all the names are Slavic? Even in Malsia we find Bogdans, Radomirs, and Srbins.
IncelSlayer
04-25-2017, 08:31 PM
Albanians did not originated somewhere in North of Shkumbin. Albanians are autocthonus in their land.
and that is which?so far the only legit link you have is with the caucasus albanians (i can find you dozens of historical quotes and documents and historians who agree with this).
the illyrian theory is considered debunked everywere else except for albanians ,and you were importen in places like Kosovo(this is an indisputable fact).
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 08:32 PM
Albanians did not originated somewhere in North of Shkumbin. Albanians are autocthonus in their land.
We did. The lack of Greek loan words but huge amount of Latin loan words are proof that we originated north of the Jirecek line, so probably in northern Albania or Kosova which still means that we are native in our lands
Laberia
04-25-2017, 08:32 PM
Dont you see that almost all the names are Slavic? Even in Malsia we find Bogdans, Radomirs, and Srbins.
Do you have read this paper?
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 08:33 PM
and that is which?so far the only legit link you have is with the caucasus albanians (i can find you dozens of historical quotes and documents and historians who agree with this).
the illyrian theory is considered debunked everywere else except for albanians ,and you were importen in places like Kosovo(this is an indisputable fact).
Jesus Christ not this debunked story again. Albanians originated in the Balkans although north of the Jirecek line
Laberia
04-25-2017, 08:33 PM
We did. The lack of Greek loan words but huge amount of Latin loan words are proof that we originated north of the Jirecek line, so probably in northern Albania or Kosova which still means that we are native in our lands
Really? Where you have read all this things? Wikipedia?
IncelSlayer
04-25-2017, 08:35 PM
Jesus Christ not this debunked story again. Albanians originated in the Balkans although north of the Jirecek line
bullshit.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 08:35 PM
Dont you see that almost all the names are Slavic? Even in Malsia we find Bogdans, Radomirs, and Srbins.
I have never heard of Srbins and Radomirs but I have heard Bogdans
Laberia
04-25-2017, 08:35 PM
Jesus Christ not this debunked story again. Albanians originated in the Balkans although north of the Jirecek line
Let me repeat again. Albanians are autocthonus in their lands. If you don't know the history of your country, it's better that you avoid to discuss it.
Coolguy1
04-25-2017, 08:36 PM
Do you have read this paper?
You mean have I read this paper? Yes I have, its not hard to put it in google translate.
Laberia
04-25-2017, 08:38 PM
bullshit.
Eat it. Deymark, i asked for documents where you can prove that Ottomans settled Albanians in South servia. And i mean Nish, Toplica, etc, not Kosova. Do you have this documents?
Bosniensis
04-25-2017, 08:38 PM
Let me repeat again. Albanians are autocthonus in their lands. If you don't know the history of your country, it's better that you avoid to discuss it.
Yes, I've heard Albanians have territorial claims on Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia and all so call "Illyrian" lands nowdays.... Read the news..
your politicians claim right on Niš as well.
Laberia
04-25-2017, 08:38 PM
You mean have I read this paper? Yes I have, its not hard to put it in google translate.
And what the author say? Can you quote him?
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 08:40 PM
Really? Where you have read all this things? Wikipedia?
The lack of Greek loan words show this as I said before. Also Albanian migrated further south from the north in the 14th century, Arvanites were one of these migrants
IncelSlayer
04-25-2017, 08:40 PM
Let me repeat again. Albanians are autocthonus in their lands. If you don't know the history of your country, it's better that you avoid to discuss it.
which lands?why were they not mentioned in history?
if albanians were present in their lands then they lived in the sewers.
Laberia
04-25-2017, 08:43 PM
Yes, I've heard Albanians have territorial claims on Bosnia, Serbia, Croatia and all so call "Illyrian" lands nowdays.... Read the news..
your politicians claim right on Niš as well.
Where you have read that Albanians claims land in Bosnia, Croatia? Can you quote any credibile source.
Let me explain you something. You accepted that you don't know much about Albanians. This make you an ignorant in this topic. There is nothing bad. We don't know many things in this world. We are ignorant about many things. But when someone who is ignorant about something, want to partecipate in discussion, this person is a idiot.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 08:43 PM
Let me repeat again. Albanians are autocthonus in their lands. If you don't know the history of your country, it's better that you avoid to discuss it.
Yh we are. But we did originate in north Albania or Kosova as I said before, most of Albania was under Greek influence at the time, except from the north which was under Latin influence meaning that it doesn't make sense for us to originate south of the jirecek line as we lack Greek loan words
Coolguy1
04-25-2017, 08:47 PM
And what the author say? Can you quote him?
I am on my phone now, what he says is that there are some names that have both Slavic and Albanian elements. Leka, son of Radovan. Lol
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 08:48 PM
I am on my phone now, what he says is that there are some names that have both Slavic and Albanian elements. Leka, son of Radovan. Lol
Leka doesn't mean son of Radovan lol, it means Alexander
Laberia
04-25-2017, 08:49 PM
The lack of Greek loan words show this as I said before. Also Albanian migrated further south from the north in the 14th century, Arvanites were one of these migrants
Really? How many words are from ancient Greek today in Albanian language?
Albanians migrated from North to South in 14 century? Where you read this BS? Exactly Arvanites are the prove that Albanians didn't migrated from North to South. Arvanites dialects are Tosk dialects. BTW, do you have heard about an Albanian medieval family called Muzaka? They were from South Albania. One of them, Teodor Muzaka in the 14 century, together with a huge army of Albanians partecipated in the battle of Kosova against the Ottomans. And he was killed in this battle. Learn the history of your country and your people.
BTW, who was the last Albanian scholar that you have read?
Laberia
04-25-2017, 08:50 PM
I am on my phone now, what he says is that there are some names that have both Slavic and Albanian elements. Leka, son of Radovan. Lol
OK, when you will be able to discuss, tell us. Ok?
Coolguy1
04-25-2017, 08:52 PM
OK, when you will be able to discuss, tell us. Ok?
Can you explain to me why there are so many Serbian names? Not Orthodox names, Serbian names like Radovan and Bogdan?
R1b are Lombard conquerors of Italy
No. Please stop making yourself look like a low IQ jackass.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?207477-Y-dna-of-a-Lombard-Italian
Coolguy1
04-25-2017, 08:53 PM
Leka doesn't mean son of Radovan lol, it means Alexander
What I meant is that there are many examples of a person with an Albanian name having a father with a Serbian name. Leka, bir i Radovanit.
Laberia
04-25-2017, 08:55 PM
What I meant is that there are many examples of a person with an Albanian name having a father with a Serbian name. Leka, bir i Radovanit.
Sokol Hoxha, i biri, son of Enver Hoxha. Do you know that Sokol is a servian name. What's the point, that the dictator Enver Hoxha was a serv? Sorcelow......
Coolguy1
04-25-2017, 08:58 PM
Sokol Hoxha, i biri, son of Enver Hoxha. Do you know that Sokol is a servian name. What's the point, that the dictator Enver Hoxha was a serv? Sorcelow......
Thank you for your scholarly response.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 09:00 PM
Really? How many words are from ancient Greek today in Albanian language?
Albanians migrated from North to South in 14 century? Where you read this BS? Exactly Arvanites are the prove that Albanians didn't migrated from North to South. Arvanites dialects are Tosk dialects. BTW, do you have heard about an Albanian medieval family called Muzaka? They were from South Albania. One of them, Teodor Muzaka in the 14 century, together with a huge army of Albanians partecipated in the battle of Kosova against the Ottomans. And he was killed in this battle. Learn the history of your country and your people.
BTW, who was the last Albanian scholar that you have read?
Hmmm yh some of the info I read seems wrong now that I took the Muzaka's and other things into consideration. Most of the info is from various historians/authors, I was just reading some info from Eric Hampf and he says that Albanians originated in a mountainous terrain as opposed to a plain or coastal terrain and that Albanians have been in the area around the Shkumbin since the 5th and 6th centuries AD he also says that the Shkumbin straddles the Jirecek line and that the Gheg and Tosk dialectal split preceded the Slavic invasions although he does say that the center of Albanian settlement is the Mat river in northern Albania. The last I have read is probably Aleksander Stipcevic which was an Arbanasi from Croatia, in the UK there aren't many books published by Albanian scholars
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 09:01 PM
What I meant is that there are many examples of a person with an Albanian name having a father with a Serbian name. Leka, bir i Radovanit.
Oh. If this was in Sanxhak or other Slavic areas it just means that he adopted a Slavic surname but still his father could of been call Radovan
Laberia
04-25-2017, 09:02 PM
Thank you for your scholarly response.
There is nothing scholarly in your posts Sorcelow. I made you a couple of questions and you told me that you are using a phone, etc. Decide, if you want to discuss, ok, no problem.
Deymark
04-25-2017, 09:03 PM
I asked about documents. And i am talking not about Kosova, but about South servia.
Firstly its not Kosova, but Kosovo.
Secondly, if there were no albanians in Kosovo&Metohija, it also means there were no albanians north-east-west of it(unless they teleported????).This albanians only appear in censuses and writtings in Serbian Kingdom after Ottomans.
But albanians had also settled in South Serbia after Ottomans.
By April 1942 as many as 60.000 refugees from Metohija and parts of Kosovo had amassed around the southern borders of Serbia under German occupation which became part of Greater Albania.
Hermann Neubacher, Sonderauftrag Sudost 1940-1945, Gotingen 1953, p. 116.
We did. The lack of Greek loan words but huge amount of Latin loan words are proof that we originated north of the Jirecek line, so probably in northern Albania or Kosova which still means that we are native in our lands
False.Not one albanian existed in north of Albania or Kosovo.Most likely albanians did not even exist in Europe before 10th century.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 09:03 PM
Can you explain to me why there are so many Serbian names? Not Orthodox names, Serbian names like Radovan and Bogdan?
Because they were in an area that was full of Slavs meaning that they adopted Slavic names as a form of defense from prosecution and assimilation or at least this is what I can infer
Coolguy1
04-25-2017, 09:04 PM
There is nothing scholarly in your posts Sorcelow. I made you a couple of questions and you told me that you are using a phone, etc. Decide, if you want to discuss, ok, no problem.
I am discussing it with you right now, but it seems that you cannot provide an explanation for the majority of names in the defter being Slavic, if you cannot explain it then its ok, I understand, Stojan.
Laberia
04-25-2017, 09:06 PM
Hmmm yh some of the info I read seems wrong now that I took the Muzaka's and other things into consideration. Most of the info is from various historians/authors, I was just reading some info from Eric Hampf and he says that Albanians originated in a mountainous terrain as opposed to a plain or coastal terrain and that Albanians have been in the area around the Shkumbin since the 5th and 6th centuries AD he also says that the Shkumbin straddles the Jirecek line and that the Gheg and Tosk dialectal split preceded the Slavic invasions although he does say that the center of Albanian settlement is the Mat river in northern Albania. The last I have read is probably Aleksander Stipcevic which was an Arbanasi from Croatia, in the UK there aren't many books published by Albanian scholars
Read Muzaka:
When Murad the Second (5) took power, he seized Serbia and Bulgaria in a huge onslaught. Lazar (6), the Despot of Serbia, and King Marko of Bulgaria and Theodore Musachi, the second-born of our family, and the other Lords of Albania united and set off for battle, which the Christians lost (7). It was there that the above mentioned Theodore, who had a large band of Albanians with him, was slain. The said Lazar of Serbia was taken prisoner and later slain. Now began a period of continuous warfare with the Turks in Albania, in which many lords and gentlemen gave their lives.
You see? What migration of Albanians in 14 century from North to South? In this century Muzaka were the Despot of Epir.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 09:07 PM
Firstly its not Kosova, but Kosovo.
Secondly, if there were no albanians in Kosovo&Metohija, it also means there were no albanians north-east-west of it(unless they teleported????).This albanians only appear in censuses and writtings in Serbian Kingdom after Ottomans.
But albanians had also settled in South Serbia after Ottomans.
Hermann Neubacher, Sonderauftrag Sudost 1940-1945, Gotingen 1953, p. 116.
False.Not one albanian existed in north of Albania or Kosovo.Most likely albanians did not even exist in Europe before 10th century.
Explain why I have 100% Southeast European on MyOrigins then nigga xD
Laberia
04-25-2017, 09:08 PM
I am discussing it with you right now, but it seems that you cannot provide an explanation for the majority of names in the defter being Slavic, if you cannot explain it then its ok, I understand, Stojan.
You pretend that you have read with the help of Gg translator this document. I made you a question. Can you give an answer please? Thank you in advance.
Laberia
04-25-2017, 09:10 PM
Firstly its not Kosova, but Kosovo.
Secondly, if there were no albanians in Kosovo&Metohija, it also means there were no albanians north-east-west of it(unless they teleported????).This albanians only appear in censuses and writtings in Serbian Kingdom after Ottomans.
But albanians had also settled in South Serbia after Ottomans.
Hermann Neubacher, Sonderauftrag Sudost 1940-1945, Gotingen 1953, p. 116.
False.Not one albanian existed in north of Albania or Kosovo.Most likely albanians did not even exist in Europe before 10th century.
I made you a specific question. Do you have a answer?
Voskos
04-25-2017, 09:10 PM
Firstly its not Kosova, but Kosovo.
Secondly, if there were no albanians in Kosovo&Metohija, it also means there were no albanians north-east-west of it(unless they teleported????).This albanians only appear in censuses and writtings in Serbian Kingdom after Ottomans.
But albanians had also settled in South Serbia after Ottomans.
Hermann Neubacher, Sonderauftrag Sudost 1940-1945, Gotingen 1953, p. 116.
False.Not one albanian existed in north of Albania or Kosovo.Most likely albanians did not even exist in Europe before 10th century.
you are my slavic ancestor
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 09:11 PM
you are my slavic ancestor
xD hahahahahaah. Don't forget that he is Gothic as well as he says in his profile lol xD
Coolguy1
04-25-2017, 09:12 PM
You pretend that you have read with the help of Gg translator this document. I made you a question. Can you give an answer please? Thank you in advance.
What exactly do you want me to show you, all the people with Slavic names? You are making yourself look dumber than usual. Pulaha mentions how many of the names are moxed, but the majority are Serbian. Sometimes the word Arbanas is used for some individuals to denote them being Albanian, in an otherwise Slavic village. Now, for an actual question, how can you explain all these names? Im waiting.
Laberia
04-25-2017, 09:12 PM
Firstly its not Kosova, but Kosovo.
Secondly, if there were no albanians in Kosovo&Metohija, it also means there were no albanians north-east-west of it(unless they teleported????).This albanians only appear in censuses and writtings in Serbian Kingdom after Ottomans.
But albanians had also settled in South Serbia after Ottomans.
Hermann Neubacher, Sonderauftrag Sudost 1940-1945, Gotingen 1953, p. 116.
False.Not one albanian existed in north of Albania or Kosovo.Most likely albanians did not even exist in Europe before 10th century.
1937
Vaso Cubrilovic:
The Expulsion of the Albanians - Memorandum
Thanks to the wide-ranging national plans of Jovan Ristic, Serbia sliced off another piece of this wedge with the annexation of Toplica and Kosanica. At that time, the regions between Jastrebac and southern Morava were radically cleared of Albanians.
Here we are not talking about Kosova, but about south servia. How many documents you want?
Laberia
04-25-2017, 09:14 PM
What exactly do you want me to show you, all the people with Slavic names? You are making yourself look dumber than usual. Pulaha mentions how many of the names are moxed, but the majority are Serbian. Sometimes the word Arbanas is used for some individuals to denote them being Albanian, in an otherwise Slavic village. Now, for an actual question, how can you explain all these names? Im waiting.
I made you a question. Go back, read it and answer, always if you can give an answer.
Coolguy1
04-25-2017, 09:17 PM
[QUOTE=Laberia;4370980]I made you a question. Go back, read it and answer, always if you can give an answer.[/QUOTE
Go get some rest, eat a snack, and come back when you are ready.
Laberia
04-25-2017, 09:22 PM
Hmmm yh some of the info I read seems wrong now that I took the Muzaka's and other things into consideration. Most of the info is from various historians/authors, I was just reading some info from Eric Hampf and he says that Albanians originated in a mountainous terrain as opposed to a plain or coastal terrain and that Albanians have been in the area around the Shkumbin since the 5th and 6th centuries AD he also says that the Shkumbin straddles the Jirecek line and that the Gheg and Tosk dialectal split preceded the Slavic invasions although he does say that the center of Albanian settlement is the Mat river in northern Albania. The last I have read is probably Aleksander Stipcevic which was an Arbanasi from Croatia, in the UK there aren't many books published by Albanian scholars
Read Çabej:
Gg translator
From the field of historical toponomastikes, starting with the right of methodically way, from internal circumstances of Albanian Language, we conclude that the names of towns, rivers, mountains etc. from Ragusa up in the Chameria, Stip, Nis, Skopje Shari the shore of the Adriatic to the Ionic Sea, which have been known since ancient times, with the form they have today in the Albanian language testify to a continuum, for a continuity in the ground. These names in the majority represent a linguistic development of ancient forms in accordance with the phonetic laws of Albanian Language, and in a way that their forms today can not be explained except by means of her, finding no explanation by means of another language of the Balkan Peninsula: Ragusium: Rush, Scodra: Shkoder, Astibus: Shtip, Naissus: Nish, Scradus mons: Shar, Scupi: Shkup, Drivastum: Drisht, Pirustae: Pass of Prushit, Lissus: Lesh (si lat. Spissus: shpesh), Candavia: Kunavlja, Dyrrachion: Durres, Isamnus: Ishem, Scampinus: Shkumbini, Aulon: Vlone Vlore, Thyamis: Çam -.
This is one of the coercive evidence for autochthony of the Albanian people. The efforts of some scholars to circumvent or minimize this, are assigned a priori to fail, because here face excuses general in fact-based reasoning. In the middle there may not be as an occasional thing this, that the name of the ancient Alban in the center-northern Albania lives even today, as the national name of the oldest people, and the country's (Arber, Arben), in the land of Albanians and in the Albanian settlements in Italy and Greece.
Source:
Eqrem Çabej
Illyrian and Albanian
Illyrians and the genesis of the Albanians (Scientific Session, Tirana, March 3 to 4, 1969)
P. S.
We are lucky that we had a scholar like Çabej. Nobody from our neighbors have a scholar like him. Our neighbors have clowns, charlatans, but not scholars.
Laberia
04-25-2017, 09:23 PM
[QUOTE=Laberia;4370980]I made you a question. Go back, read it and answer, always if you can give an answer.[/QUOTE
Go get some rest, eat a snack, and come back when you are ready.
Sorcelow, you are an ignorant, like many other here.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 09:24 PM
Read Çabej:
Gg translator
From the field of historical toponomastikes, starting with the right of methodically way, from internal circumstances of Albanian Language, we conclude that the names of towns, rivers, mountains etc. from Ragusa up in the Chameria, Stip, Nis, Skopje Shari the shore of the Adriatic to the Ionic Sea, which have been known since ancient times, with the form they have today in the Albanian language testify to a continuum, for a continuity in the ground. These names in the majority represent a linguistic development of ancient forms in accordance with the phonetic laws of Albanian Language, and in a way that their forms today can not be explained except by means of her, finding no explanation by means of another language of the Balkan Peninsula: Ragusium: Rush, Scodra: Shkoder, Astibus: Shtip, Naissus: Nish, Scradus mons: Shar, Scupi: Shkup, Drivastum: Drisht, Pirustae: Pass of Prushit, Lissus: Lesh (si lat. Spissus: shpesh), Candavia: Kunavlja, Dyrrachion: Durres, Isamnus: Ishem, Scampinus: Shkumbini, Aulon: Vlone Vlore, Thyamis: Çam -.
This is one of the coercive evidence for autochthony of the Albanian people. The efforts of some scholars to circumvent or minimize this, are assigned a priori to fail, because here face excuses general in fact-based reasoning. In the middle there may not be as an occasional thing this, that the name of the ancient Alban in the center-northern Albania lives even today, as the national name of the oldest people, and the country's (Arber, Arben), in the land of Albanians and in the Albanian settlements in Italy and Greece.
Source:
Eqrem Çabej
Illyrian and Albanian
Illyrians and the genesis of the Albanians (Scientific Session, Tirana, March 3 to 4, 1969)
P. S.
We are lucky that we had a scholar like Çabej. Nobody from our neighbors have a scholar like him. Our neighbors have clowns, charlatans, but not scholars.
Aleksander stipcevic's book about Illyrians is probably the best hands down in my opinion
Deymark
04-25-2017, 09:25 PM
I made you a specific question. Do you have a answer?
Yes, already did answer.Can't you read?No albanians were recorded in South Serbia before Ottomans took administration of those lands,only very late are the siptars reorded.The conclusion is only one.Now quit disturbing me with your meaningless cries.
Explain why I have 100% Southeast European on MyOrigins then nigga xD
Already did for the 3rd time, and you keep asking this question.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 09:28 PM
Yes, already did answer.Can't you read?No albanians were recorded in South Serbia before Ottomans took administration of those lands,only very late are the siptars reorded.The conclusion is only one.Now quit disturbing me with your meaningless cries.
Already did for the 3rd time, and you keep asking this question.
100% SOUTHEAST EUROPE MA NIGGA ON A TEST THAT GOES BACK 2,000 YEARS. YO BUTTHURT ASS GIVES ME BUTTHURT ANSWERS NOW CRY ME A RIVER HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHA xD
Coolguy1
04-25-2017, 09:28 PM
[QUOTE=Sorcelow;4370984]
Sorcelow, you are an ignorant, like many other here.
I thought you come from a family of lab scholars, why cant you answer this question? Tell me, have you ever gone to university?
Deymark
04-25-2017, 09:29 PM
Read Çabej:
.
Wrong.Most of toponyms in Albania are slavic,greek and all in Kosovo are slavic.
The Illyrian toponyms known from antiquity, e.g. Shkoder from the ancient Scodra (Livius), Tomor from Tomarus (Strabo, Pliny, etc.), have not been directly inherited in Albanian: the contemporary forms of these names do not correspond to the phonetic laws of Albanian. The same also applies to the ancient toponyms of Latin origin in this region.
Vladimir Georgiev’s The Genesis of the Balkan Peoples
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 09:30 PM
@Deymark: Pls do Ftdna family finder so that we can see what your Gothic ass scores
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 09:30 PM
Wrong.Most of toponyms in Albania and all in Kosovo are slavic.
Vladimir Georgiev’s The Genesis of the Balkan Peoples
He believes that we are Thracians/Dacians.
Deymark
04-25-2017, 09:32 PM
He believes that we are Thracians/Dacians.
I don't care of he believed, he was a linguist, so only his linguist studies are interesting.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 09:33 PM
I don't care of he believed, he was a linguist, so only his linguist studies are interesting.
It's "I don't care about what he believed" not "I don't care of he believed". See not even an Aryan Goth like you knows every thing ;)
Laberia
04-25-2017, 09:35 PM
Yes, already did answer.Can't you read?No albanians were recorded in South Serbia before Ottomans took administration of those lands,only very late are the siptars reorded.The conclusion is only one.Now quit disturbing me with your meaningless cries.
Already did for the 3rd time, and you keep asking this question.
No gypsy, you didn't answer. Read here:
This is XX century. This story start in XIX century. Let me quote first an important scholar, an philhellene (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philhellenism), George_Finlay (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George Finlay) from his work History of the Greek Revolution (1861) Volume 1:
In Albania a considerable proportion of the population had embraced the Mohammedan religion; but the Albanian Mussulmans were detested by Osmanlees and hated by the Greeks. Their religion was hardly a matter of conscience with the majority. They were less bigoted than the Turks, and less superstitious than the Greeks. Their avarice was, however, insatiable, and for gold an Albanian Mussulman would willingly serve a Christian master, or a Christian Albanian a Mussulman chief, even if the service was to be rendered in deeds of blood.
The Albanian forms a distinct race among the nations of Europe. They have been supposed by some to be the representatives of the Pelasgians. They call themselves Shkipetar. Some suppose them to have occupied the regions they now inhabit before the days of Homer, and that they are the lineal descendants of the race to which the ancient Epirots and Macedonians belonged as cognate tribes. Alexander the Great must, according to these archaeologists, have spoken an ancient Albanian dialect at his riotous banquets with his Macedonian officers.
The researches of modern philology have established beyond question that the Albanian language is an early offset from the Sanscrit, and that its grammar was complete at as old a date as the oldest Greek dialect.
Nearly the same boundary separates the Hellenic from the non-Hellenic population at the present day as in ancient times. Thucydides calls the Amphilochians who dwelt at the head of the Gulf of Arta barbarians. Strabo says that one race inhabited the whole country, from the Acroceraunian Mountains to the borders of Thessaly and to the plain of Pelagonia, under the name of Epirots or Macedonians, for both spoke the same language.
The whole of Albania, from the Gulf of Arta to the Lake of Skodra, is divided into innumerable lateral valleys by rugged mountains, which render the communications so difficult as to confine trade to a few lines of transport.
Russia's role in the formation of the Balkan states is paramount. It has been rightly remarked that without Russis's aid none of the Balkan nations would have probably achieved independence. Albania is the only nation to have stood desperately alone in her struggle for freedom.
When considering the problem of the Albanian borders, it is essential to be aware of the dominant role played quite early by the Russians relative to the Balkan nations. For it is a very common error to think that the unification of the South Slavs is an idea that emerged after World War I and that the Albanian borders would probably not have been quite what they presently are, had they been discussed with respect to Yugoslavia and not in regard to Serbia and Montenegro, as was the case.
In 1878, at the Congress of Berlin, the idea of Great Serbia, which goes as far back as the 18th century, served as a guideline relative to territorial claims, but it could not, of course, be disclosed and openly discussed; it would have been premature. Indeed, even for the sake of the future unification, it was much more appropriate to be first concerned with the revindication of the South Slavs as single states and not as a group.
At the Congress, it was thus merely insisted that Serbia be aggrandized and that a seaport be given to Montenegro, which was very poor.
In fact, when the French savant Ami Boue visited Montenegro in 1836, he was struck by its poverty, claiming that it would be doomed to remain for a long time without resources because neither Turkey nor Austria would be willing to conquer rocks; adding, however, that Russia could have used her influence to induce Austria to ceding to Montenegro the seaport Cattaro which was of no great importance to herself.
A. Bouc, La Turquie d’Europe, 1840, IV, p. 130.
Yet, forty years later, at the Congress of Berlin, there was no question of allotting Cattaro (Kotor) to Montenegro. She was awarded, instead, Antebari (Tivar) and, a little later, Dulcigno (Ulqin), a harbor which from 877 to 1560 had been the see of a Catholic bishopric. It had practically never been under Slav rule. Moreover, its population was 95% Albanian.
But the Principality of Montenegro, which was made up of rocks, did not merely need a seaport; it also lacked pasture land. It was thus awarded Podgorica, Shpuza, the rich valleys of Plava and Gusigne, Hoti, Gruda, and Triepshi, which were Albanian strongholds. As pointed out by Justin Godard, after the Treaty of Berlin, Montenegro's territory doubled (L'Albanie en 1921, Paris, 1922, p.9.). Montenegro, on account of her small size, was in an excellent position to extend her territory at Albania's expense and at the same time come closer to Serbia, i.e., toward achieving her goal of unification. As for Serbia, who was much pitied for her lack of access to the sea, she received, in compensation, Kuršumlija, Leskovac, Vranja and Niš, a region whose population was mainly Albanian.
These important acquisitions made by Serbia and Montenegro were to be added later to the greater nation that tese single states were planing to form.
The Albanians became alarmed when the preliminary Peace Treaty of San Stefano had created a huge Bulgaria, which was to include territory nominally under Turkish rule, but inhabited by Albanians. Since 1330, when the Bulgarians lost their independence, there had been no noticeable uprising in the Balkan nation. In all probability, Bulgaria's independence would not have come about without Russia's assistance.
Although the Albanians did not have anybody to back their claims, they reacted very rapidly. In the fall of 1877, they formed a committee - Le Comite central pour la defense des droits de la nation albanaise - whose purpose was to denounce the states that were planning to expand their territory at Albania's expense.
The committee invited the neighboring countries to a peaceful coexistence, but added that it was determined to defend Albania's national rights.
Albania was at that time a domain of the Turkish Empire comprising four vilayets or provinces: Shkodra - which included the Dukagjini Plateau (Metohija), Monastir (presently Bitolja), Janina, and Shkup (Skopje), presently in Macedonia. This latter province was more readily called Kosova by the Turks in memory of the victory of a battle on the Plain of Kossovo, the "Campo dei Merli" of old Venetian maps. The capital of this province had at times been Priština.
(According to A. Boue, the "battles" that took place were not fought on the plain, but on its "plates-formes" at Gasimestan, "one and a half hours north of Pristina;" the name of Kossovo, he explained, was applied later to the Plain of Sitnica and the surrounding territory (A. Boue, op. cit., I, p. 142)
.
Owing to the efforts of the committee headed by A. Frasheri, 80 delegates representing all four provinces convened at the city of Prizren, in the Vilayet of Shkup (Kosova) in June 1878, three days prior to the opening of the Congress of Berlin, whose purpose was to reconsider the decision reached by San Stefano's preliminary Peace Treaty. The assembly of these delegates was henceforth called The League of Prizren. Its task was to defend Albania's rights.
Kosova became thus for the Albanians the center of their resistance and they have ever since regarded this territory as a symbol of their struggle for independence.
Various letters, telegrams, petitions, and memoranda signed by Albanians inhabiting all four provinces were dispatched to heads of state and ambassadors. Their reading reveals the exasperation and bitterness of the Albanians, who, judging by their messages, preferred to be annihilated rather than to be included in a Slav state.
Below are excerpts of a long memorandum; they convey some of the feelings experienced by the Albanians:
...To annex to Montenegro or to any other Slav state, countries inhabited ab antiquo by Albanians who differ essentially in their language, in their origin, in their customs, in their traditions, and in their religion, would be not only a crying injustice, but further an impolitic act, which cannot fail to cause complaints, discontent and sanguinary conflicts...
...notwithstanding their longing to escape the misfortunes which Turkish rule has inflicted on them for five centuries, the Albanians will never submit themselves to any Slav State which Russia may attempt to put forward; race, language, customs (...) national pride, everything, in a word, is opposed to such a state of things; and it is neither just nor prudent to free them from a yoke only to place them under another, which would in no way ameliorate their social position.
(Yet "Public Record Office," London, FO., 78/2784; The British Museum, "Accounts and Papers" (38) 1878, LXXXIII 83, 298-30 1; reproduced by S. Rizaj in The Albanian League of Prizren in English Documents, Prishtina, 1978, pp. 189-192. Other English documents are published by Rizaj in "Three English Diplomats on the Albanian Question (1879-1880)," GjurmimeAlbanologjike IX, 1979, Prishtina 1980, pp. 337-353. English documents relating to the League of Prizren are quite numerous. They are available in the Foreign Office Archives (Public Record Office), London and in the British Museum (Accounts and Papers), London. Most documents used in this essay are reproduced either by S. Rizaj in op. or art. cit., or by L. Skendo in Albanais et Slaves, Lausanne, 1919.)
Yet despite all the requests sent to heads of state by so many Albanians, Albania was not granted autonomy. Similar to Metternich who once claimed that Italy was merely a geographic expression, but that there was no Italian nation, Bismarck declared that "Albania is merely a geographic expression; there is no Albanian nation.
(Later, Bismarck is said to have admitted his error).
Whereas Moslem Bosnia was assigned to Austria, Serbia (proclaimed an independent kingdom by the Congress) and Montenegro were allotted regions whose population was purely Albanian.
As soon as the Serbs occupied the ceded territories, the Albanians were asked to evacuate them. With respect to the Albanians inhabiting those areas, Mr. Gould, Consul of Great Britain in Belgrade, wrote to the Marquis of Salisbury, Secretary of the Foreign Office of Great Britain, on Nov. 26, 1878:
I hear that the Servian Government has behaved with great and unnecessary harshness, not to say cruelty, toward the Albanians in the recently ceded districts. If my information is correct, and I have every reason to believe it to be so, the peaceful and industrious inhabitants of over 100 Albanian villages in the Toplitza and Vranja Valley were ruthlessly driven forth from their homesteads by the Servians in the early part of this year. These wretched people have ever since been wandering about in a starving condition in the wild country beyond the Servian frontier. They have not been allowed to gather in their crops on their own lands, which were reaped by the Servian soldiery... I ... casually stated to his Excellency (Ristic) that these facts had come to my knowledge, and that should they be confirmed I felt certain Her Majesty's Government and the majority of the Great Powers would call the Servian Government to account, and insist upon strict justice being done to these unfortunate people, whose only crime was their belonging to an alien race and another creed...
(EM., Accounts and Papers (38); 1878-9; LXXIX 79, 574-575. Letter reproduced by Rizaj in op. cit. pp. 24 1-242.)
Yet the Serbs did not stop their harsh measures against the Albanians. Hundred of thousands were brutally forced to evacuate these areas inhabited by them from time immemorial without receiving any compensation for their losses.
The Servian government confiscated all property owned by the Albanians despite the articles 35 and 39 of the "Berlin Negotiations" stipulating that the Albanians living in the regions ceded to Serbia would have the same civil rights as the Serbs.
As to the number of the Albanians inhabiting those territories, various statistics and extant documents give contradictory figures. According to a note of the administrative divisions dating from 1873, the district of the Sandjak of Niš had about 100 000 Albanians. As regards the number of refugees, the figures given by Prof. J. Cvijic for those who settled in Kosova is 30 000, that furnished by English documents, 100 000. According to Turkish sources, the number of the Albanians who were forced to leave the region amounted to 300 000.
On June 3, 1978, Rilindja (p.7), published a letter addressed by these miserable people (who were deprived of all means and many of whom were sick) to the European Powers requesting that at least a commission be set up to look into their serious problem..
(For the data concerning the Albanians of these territories, see E. PlIana, "Les raisons et Ia maniere de Ia migration des refugies albanais du territoire du Sandjak de Nish a Kosova (1877-1878)," Gjurmime Albanologjike IX 1979, Prishtine, 1980, pp. 129-156. Cf. also R. Marmullaku Albania and the Albanians , London, 1975, p. 24 (does not contain details).
Leaving these helpless refugees to their sad fate, the Serbs colonized the region with astounding rapidity. Referring to the colonization of the area by the Serbs, V. Cubrilovic stated in his "Memorandum" (about which more will be told later) that "Toplica and Kosanica, once Albanian regions of ill-repute, gave Serbia the finest regiment in the wars of 1912-1918".
Since these territories forcibly annexed to Serbia belonged nominally to Turkey, the Albanians could not oppose a marked resistance on account of the fact that they did not have a state of their own and, consequently, were not provided with an organized army. However, realizing that after the disintegration of the Turkish Empire, which was imminent, land that had been theirs would remain under Slav domination, they felt very bitter. They were thus quickly organized and armed by the League and despite every difficulty defended heroically the districts that had been adjudged to Montenegro. As a result, the latter failed to take them by force. These territories were to be ceded by the Great Powers to Montenegro in 1913.
As for Ulqin (Dulcigno), it was quickly occupied by Albanian troops (which the League had managed to organize in the meantime) as soon as the Turks evacuated it. The resistance of these troops in that city was so fierce, that the Great Powers had to send seventeen war vessels in order to compel the Albanians to yield, giving them a delay of three days. Paying no heed to this naval threat, the Albanians resisted for more than two months. The Turks dispatched, then, their own troops numbering eight battalions. As a result, the Albanians found themselves encircled on all sides. After a desperate battle, they surrendered to the Turks, who, after taking possession of Ulqin, handed it over to the Montenegrins in June 1880.
In regard to Ulqin, M.E. Durham wrote: "The naval demonstration was instigated by Gladstone. Dulcigno remains a monument of diplomatic blunder...it is a constant reminder to the Albanians that they may expect no justice from Europe, and it has enhanced their hatred for the Slav". (High Albania, London, 1909, p.9).
Owing to the passionate and tenacious resistance of the Albanians, the battle of Ulqin received much attention in Europe and elsewhere. Some of the numerous reports published in French newspapers as well as in the New York Times in 1880 are interesting to read. Below are merely two passages picked at random:
...There are said to be 8 400 Mohammedans and 4 000 Catholic Albanians in the district with a sprinkling of Slavs and Gypsies. These people are not on the friendliest terms with their Montenegrin neighbors, but they hate the Turks quite as much...The Albanian League declares ... that the territory of Albania is sacred... (NYT, Sept. 13,4:3).
Dulcigno humorously described...
... That sweetly named town, as is well known, belongs to Albania, which in turn belongs to Turkey. The Great Powers of Europe, after a pleasant consultation in Berlin, in Prince Bismarck's back parlor, decided that it should be a good thing if Montenegro, an independent principality which from lack of seaport has hitherto been compelled to restrict itself to brigandage instead of piracy, were to have a convenient seaport like Dulcigno... (NYT, Sept, 4:5).
The Catholics resented their annexation to Montenegro just as much as did the Moslems, if not more. The loss of Ulqin inspired the Franciscan Father Ndue Shllaku to address the population of that town in terms the reading of which still moves Albanians to tears.
The other fights with Montenegro were sung by Father Gjergj Fishta, a Franciscan, in his Epic The Lute of the Highlanders, one of the great masterpieces of Albanian literature. In this strong and moving work, Fishta shows the Albanian Catholics side by side with their Moslem brothers in their fight against the Montenegrins.
Relating to the Catholics, the French envoy in Shkodra, L.H. (Louis Hecquart?) wrote to his government on 24 July, 1880: "M. Corti a cru de boone foi que les catholiques Albanais accepteraient Ia domination montenegrine plus facilement que les musulmas, et c’est le contraire qui est vrai" — Mr. Corti sincerely believed that it would be easier for the Catholic Albanians than for the Moslems to accept the Montenegrin domination; but it has been the opposite
(Letter contained in "Inventaire sommaire des archives de Ia guerre," serie N. 1872-1919, Archives de Ia defense, Chateau de Vincennes. Unpublished document, hand written).
Yet the admirable contribution of the Catholics to the national cause was completely ignored by the West, as had been the numerous petitions sent to the Powers by Catholic tribes, who begged not to be annexed to Montenegro.
The Albanians, who had reacted in a most courageous and dignified way were to find out that their heroic fights for the national cause were described as a resistance of Moslem fanatics to Christianity and to Christian civilization and that the League of Prizren was presented as being supported by the Turks. For propaganda purposes, Slav Orthodoxy, chauvinistically national in character, was equated with Christianity and its universal values. Of course, the interest was material.
Whether the Albanians had any premonition that the decisions of the Berlin Congress would constitute for them only the beginning of a series of other iniquities and humiliations, is hard to say. The admirable activity they displayed in the years that followed, suggest that they kept believing in human justice.
To be sure, there were, among foreigners, individuals who considered the plight of the Albanians in an objective way and who tried to assist them. Thus Lord Goschen, British Ambassador to Constantinople, wrote to Earl Granville, Secretary of the Foreign Office of Great Britain, on July 26, 1880:
... I venture to submit to your Lordship, as I have done before, that the Albanian excitement cannot be passed over as a mere maneuver conducted by the Turks in order to mislead Europe, and evade its will. Nor can it be denied that the Albanian movement is perfectly natural. As ancient and distinct a race, as any by whom they are surrounded, they have seen the nationality of these neighboring races taken under the protection of various European Powers, and gratified in their aspirations for a more independent existence. They have seen the Bulgarians completely emancipated... They have seen the ardent desire of Europe to liberate territory inhabited by Greeks from Turkish rule. They have seen the Slavs in Montenegro protected by the great Slav Empire of the North with enthusiastic pertinence. They see the Eastern question being solved on the principle of nationality and the Balkan Peninsula being gradually divided, as it were, among various races on that principle. Meanwhile, they see that they themselves do not receive similar treatment. Their nationality is ignored, and territory inhabited by Albanians is handed over in the north to the Montenegrins, to satisfy Montenegro, the protege of Russia, and in the south to Greece, the protege of England and France. Exchanges of territory are proposed, other difficulties arise, but it is still at the expense of the Albanians, and the Albanians are handed over to Slavs and Greeks without reference to the principle of nationality.
(Public Record Office, London, F.O. 424/100 pp.31-34).
This is but a brief passage of a long letter which shows Lord Goschen's admirable insight relating to the Albanian question and hence to the Balkan problem. In this letter Lord Goschen points out that the Turks were using, in regard to Albanians, "cajolery" and "every other means but the promise of independence" because, as he remarks, "if the Turks lose Albania, they lose their cause in Europe". Lord Goschen adds that on account of this fact and since the Albanians are very eager to detach themselves from Turkey, it would be a blunder on the part of the Western Powers to overlook the Albanian nationality. In his opinion, a large Albania would "facilitate the future settlement of the Eastern question in Europe". Lord Goschen feels sorry that Kirby Green, Consul of Great Britain in Shkoder, failed to understand the Albanian problem. Above all, he is indignant as to a ruthless plan worked out by Captain Sale who proposed to tell the Albanians that if they rebelled against the decisions of the Great Powers, "their villages would be uprooted and they would incur a further penalty in the contraction of their boundary". Lord Goschen is convinced that the Albanians do not deserve such treatment "because, after all, in their attitude of resistance, and in their deep-rooted objection to a portion of their countrymen being handed over to an alien rule, they are simply acting on the same principle of nationality as have formed the basis of the recent treatment of the Eastern question".
Referring to Captain Sale's memorandum relative to the plan already mentioned, Lord Goschen remarks in the same letter:
...as the memorandum contained the suggestion that a British agent should be employed to influence the Albanians by fear as to the private and not only the political consequences of resistance, and as this memorandum will remain on record amongst the Archives of the Embassy, I have thought it my duty to record my strong protest against the plan it contains.
Similar to Lord Goschen, others were equally disturbed by the iniquities to which the Albanians were subjected, but their efforts to assist them were thwarted. With respect to Kosova's population, Lord Fitzmaurice (British representative on the Eastern Rumelian Commission created by the Treaty of Berlin to work out an agreement with the Porte) wrote to Earl Grey:
The extension of the Albanian population in the north-easterly direction toward Prishtina and Vranja is especially marked, and is fully acknowledged even upon maps such as that of Kiepert, generally regarded as unduly favorable to the Slav element, and that published by Messrs. Stanford in the interest of the claims of the Greek Christian population... the recent Albanian movement has a more vigorous hold on this eastern district than perhaps upon any other ... The vilayet of Kosova with the exception of a Serb district extending eastward from Mitrovitza, may be said to be Albanian. (May 26, 1880).17
The iniquities committed in regard to the Albanians are occasionally acknowledged even by Slavs. Thus N. Todorov writes:
The Albanian people who had also risen in armed struggle, were denied the right to self-determination and were abandoned to their fate against the vast human and material resources of the Ottoman Empire, as well as the encroachments of their neighboring Balkan states".
(Todorov, The Russo-Turkish war of 1877-1878 and the Liberation of Bulgaria", East-European Quarterly, 1980, Vol. 14, No. 1, p.15).
The Great Powers eventually left the Balkans in the hands of Austria and Russia. The influence of the latter, however, grew stronger as time went by.
In regard to Kosova, Russia sent priests to Serbian monasteries situated in the region exalting, together with the Orthodox faith, heroes and deeds pertaining to Serbian legends. They opened schools which were hotbeds of Slav propaganda. Clearly, her purpose was to colonize the province where the Serbs were but an insignificant minority.
"It seemed sheer folly to make a large and costly Serb theological school in a Moslem Albanian town and to import masters and students, when funds are so urgently needed to develop free Serb land" (ME. Durham,High Albania, London, 1909, p. 275).
Even E. Noel-Buxton, of the Balkan Committee, whose attitude was pro-Slav, had to admit that "The spirit of chauvinism is but thinly veiled under the garb of churchmanship. Religion is degraded to the level of pretext for exciting national zeal" (Noel-Buxton, op. cit. p. 50).
The West knew little at that time about the Balkan states. In fact, the ignorance was such that some missionaries who went to Macedonia to support the Bulgarian cause confessed that formerly they had been ignorant of the fact that there were Bulgarians in the Peninsula; they had thought that only Greeks lived there. Practically nothing was known, of course, relative to the Albanians; those unfamiliar with the question could be told anything. Thus, when two Russian consuls in Kosova and Monastir were killed by Albanians (who acted in self-defense), these acts were described as being committed by 'Moslem fanatics'. The two propaganda agents were presented as martyrs; their funerals were grandiose. Since Christianity was equated with civilization and Islam with backwardness, the Christians were regarded as the allies of the Great Powers. Thus the Catholic Albanians who are animated by patriotic feelings were ignored by design. The Albanians were depicted merely as backward Moslems and as allies of the Turks.
Many books and articles were published by the South Slavs for the purpose of showing the ferocity of the Albanians, their backwardness, their despicable behavior, their lack of discipline, etc. Vladan Djordjevic, former Prime Minister of the Kingdom of Serbia, went even so far as to claim that until "as late as the 19th century", there had been Albanians with tail in their rear! Djordjevic even referred the reader to J.G. Von Hahn's scholarly work, Albanesische Studien, where, he asserted, he had found the information.
According to Felix Adler, "The vice of vices is when we are held cheap by others sod then in our innermost soul start to think cheaply of ourselves." Protic, Gopcevic, Zupanic, Tomic, Djordjevic are some of the Slav authors who criticized the Albanians in a particularly uncivil way. Many others may be cited. Let`s remember here the famous words of Dobrica Cosic:
“We lie to deceive ourselves, to console others; we lie for mercy, we lie to fight fear, to encourage ourselves, to hide our and somebody else’s misery. We lie for love and honesty. We lie because of freedom. Lying ie is the trait of our patriotism and the proof of our innate smartness. We lie creatively, imaginatively, inventively.”
The purpose of all these writings was, of course, to draw a picture that gives to the non-specialist a very poor idea of the Albanians so that these, by dint of being despised by others may, in their innermost soul, start to despise themselves.20
To be sure, there are established scholars - be they geographers, historians, anthropologists, or serious travelers and explorers - who have expressed opinions of a very different kind: H.N. Brailsford went even so far as to maintain that "from Byron's day downward it would be hard to find a Western European who has learned to know the Albanians without admiring them" (The New Republic, March 1, 1919). In fact those who had nice words on behalf of the Albanians were so numerous that the Serb S. Protic (Balkanicus) considered the tendency to praise the Albanians as highly ethical individuals and to describe them as "unusually gifted", to have become a fashion.
(Protic,Das Albanesische Problem und die Beziehungen zwischen Oestereich- Ungarn, Leipzig, 1913, p. 19.)
The fact remains, however, that the latter writings were not accessible to many. The influential French daily Le Temps, published merely articles favoring the Slavs and Greeks, for France was then Russia's ally.22
"Le journal parisien Le Temps avait mis ses colonnes a Ia disposition de ces detracteurs comme il les avait ouvertes pour les Grecs.. .," — "The Parisian daily Le Temps was at the disposal of these calumniators [i.e., of the Slays] as it was also at the disposal of the Greeks (Lumo Skendo, Albanais et Slaves, Lausanne, 1919, p. 3).
Unknown or misunderstood by the outside world, the Albanians had to fight, under the most difficult conditions, both their neighbors and the Turks without being supported by any great power.
In order to achieve national unity with a delimited territory, the League had requested the Porte, in July 1878, to turn Albania into one vilayet. The request had not been granted. As a consequence, the Albanians, under their gallant leader Isa Boletini, a native of Kosova, openly took a stand against the Turks. All their activities were centered in the Kosova region, which became the cradle of their national struggle and thus acquired a special meaning for them.
In 1912, when the Albanians seized Shkup (Skopje) and were about to enter Monastir (Bitolja), the Turks called a truce and granted them autonomy uniting the vilayets of Shkodra, Janina, Kosova, and part of Monastir. As a result of this Albanian victory, the government of the chauvinistic Young Turks Party was overthrown. The weakness of Turkey became thus evident.
The Albanians had administered a heavy blow to the Turks and rightly hoped for approval and sympathy, for, as Lord Goschen had rightly pointed out back in 1880, if the Turks lost Albania, they would lose their cause in Europe. Instead, the Albanian victory triggered the Balkan wars, the purpose of which was the annexation of Albanian-inhabited territories that were under Turkish rule.
At that time, Montenegro had been free from Ottoman rule for over forty years; Serbia and Greece for over eighty. These states, being independent, had their regular armies. When attacked on all sides (by the Greeks, the Montenegrins, and, of course, by the Serbs, who entered Kosova), the Albanians, aware of the great danger, hastened to raise their flag and declared their neutrality.
The atrocities perpetrated by the Serbo-Montenegrins during the Balkan wars on the Albanian population were acknowledged by the Serbian socialist Dimitrije Tucovic (1881-1914) in his book Srbija i Albanija (published in 1946):
The bourgeois clamored for a merciless extermination and the army executed the orders. The Albanian villages, from which the people had made a timely flight, were burned down. There were at the same time barbaric crematoria in which hundreds of women and children were burned alive...
Brutalities committed by the Serbo-Montenegrins are also described in the Carnegie report. They may be best summed up in two short paragraphs taken from Mary Edith Durham's Twenty Years of Balkan Tangle (1920):
No Turks ever treated Armenians worse than did the two Serb peoples treat the Albanians in the name of the Holy Orthodox Church (p.235).
Cf. also Aubrey Herbert, M.P.: "Very little was known about Albania. The general opinion was that the Albanians were another branch of the Armenian family, and indeed, as far as massacres were concerned, this was most understandable . . ." (A. Herbert, Ben Kenilim, London, 1924, P. 24). According to ME. Durham, the slaughters of the Armenians were nothing compared to those of the Albanians: "The massacres of Adana and the resultant misery pale before the scarlet horrors committed wholesale in cold blood by the so-called followers of Christ" (Durham, Struggle for Scutari, London, 1914, p. 303).
About these slaughters see: http://www.albanianhistory.net/1913_Freundlich_Golgotha/index.html
http://www.albanianhistory.net/1914_Carnegie-Endowment/index.html
As for the Balkan Slav and his vaunted Christianity, it seems to me all civilization should rise and restrain him from further brutality (p.238).
What surprised ME. Durham quite specially was the religious fanaticism of the Serbs:
"It was not astonishing that the Serbs hated Islam, but that they should fiercely hate every other Christian church, I had not expected. The Catholic was hated the most." According to Durham, the Moslem was to the Serbs "a lesser evil than the Catholic," (Twenty Years of Balkan Tangle, London, 1920, p. 52). "The hatred of the Serb Orthodox for the Catholics was shown in 1913 in the Balkan war, when the Montenegrin troops, whose object was said to be to liberate Christians, fell upon the little church of Mazreku, trampled the Host underfoot, dressed up in the priestly vestments, danced about, and amused themselves by cutting noses from images of the saints and firing bullets into the crufix" (Some Tribal Origins ... p. 28).
In 1913, a number of soldiers led by a bandit clad as an Orthodox priest stripped and bayonetted to death Luigj Palici, an Albanian Franciscan from Gjakova, because he refused to cross himself in the Orthodox manner. "Austria intervened sharply. Had she not done so, in the words of a Catholic refugee, there would not have been a Catholic left" (E.C. Helmreich, The Diplomacy of the Balkan Wars, Harvard U.P., 1938, p. 317).
In 1919, a treaty concerning minorities was signed at Saint-Germain-en- Laye whereby the Yugoslav Government pledged to protect all citizens without discrimination as to race, nationality, and creed. Yet the persecutions against the Catholic Kosovars continued. Mother Teresa’s father, a native of Shkup (Skopje), and a noted Albanian patriot, was poisoned by the Serbs, as reported by his son Lazer Bojaxhiu in an interview published in Gente (Dec. 1979 and Jan. 1980). Mother Teresa’s family was obliged to move to Tirana, where her mother and sister died (the former in 1974; the latter in 1976).
In 1929, was executed Father Shtjefen Gjecovi, a Franciscan, greatly respected by all the Albanians for his erudition and his righteousness. As a result, on May 5, 1930, three Catholic priests, obliged to leave the region, addressed the "League of Nations" a memorandum concerning the tragic plight of the Albanians in Yugoslavia (see H. Kokalari, Kosova, Rome, 1962, p. 165).
It should be reiterated that the unbelievable massacres were in no way committed as a result of a struggle between Christians and Moslems, as it was at that time believed by Gladstone and stressed in his speeches. They were solely motivated by the desire to decimate the Albanian race. Not only Kosova was coveted, but all of North Albania.
During World War I, Albania's neutrality was not respected and mass massacres continued.
At the turn of the century, the reports of the Ohio journalist J.A.Mac Cahan concerning the Bulgarian uprising, had shocked the West; as known, Russia used these accounts as a pretext to march against the Turks. By contrast, the Albanian cause did not benefit from the Carnegie report, nor by the frequent and moving declarations of philanthropists and journalists who, like M.E. Durham, were eyewitnesses to mass massacres of women and children, simply because it was not in the interest of the Great Powers to take Albania's defense.
The well-known Swiss geographer H. Hauser, rightly pointed out that the principle of nationality, like all other principles, cannot be applied in a strict and equitable manner given the fact that most places constitute, with respect to the population inhabiting them, a mosaic.
This mosaic of nationalities was particularly striking in the Balkans. Here, more than anywhere else, there was need for what H. Hauser suggested, namely: good will, compromise, and a fair system of guaranties. It is an undeniable fact that relative to Albania no appeal was ever made to compromises and good will; and no system of guarantees was ever applied to her. The expediency of her neighbors prevailed. No matter what the problem at stake Albania was always the loser.
In 1878, Lord Goschen and Lord Fitzmaurice had been in favor of a large Albania comprising the Albanian-inhabited territories of the four vilayets. But, at the Congress of Berlin it was decided -as already pointed out - that territories indisputably Albanian be handed over to Montenegro and to Serbia. Places connected with Albanian history and national pride, like Janina, Arta, Preveza, were allotted to the Greeks, who within a relatively short period of time were to exterminate the overwhelming Albanian population inhabiting them. No system of guarantees was applied. Albanians, numbering hundreds of thousands were to be forcibly sent to Turkey.
The manner in which Albanian territories were ceded to neighboring states clearly indicates how arbitrary decisions that make history may be. And one cannot but agree with Mircea Eliade (The Myth of the Eternal Return), who, with respect to the theory that valorizes historical events, to which the 19th century attached so much importance, pertinently remarked that such a theory could have been established only by thinkers who know nothing about injustices and miseries caused by history.
Also, in 1913, those in charge of assigning to Albania her borders gave no consideration to the very problem of her survival. The fertile pasture lands, the regions rich in minerals and other resources, where nearly two-thirds of the Albanian population lived, remained outside the borders assigned to her. As Lord Fitzsimmons rightly remarked, "Albania was to start her career as a state mutilated from her birth". Indeed, as a nation humiliated in her pride, she had no place among her sister nations. She was doomed to poverty, bitterness, and complete isolation.
The tragic fate of many of these Albanians, who remained outside the borders assigned to the state of Albania, was to populate Asia Minor. As indicated, the guarantees stipulated by the Treaty of Berlin were not honored by Serbia. Likewise, over 300,000 Albanians inhabiting the regions ceded to Greece were expelled by the Greek Government and obliged to settle in Turkey as a result of an exchange treaty of the Turkish and the Greek Governments (see, among others, A.A. Pallis, "The exchange of populations in the Balkans," Nineteenth Century, March, 1925, pp. 376-387). Pallis begins his article by saying that ‘the exchanges of populations, as a method of settling the problems of minorities, has been condemned in many quarters as a barbarous and dangerous innovation in internal politics." The Greek delegate at the Lausanne Conference had, in fact, declared that ‘Greece agrees that the compulsory exchanges shall not be applicable to her Moslem subjects of Albanian origin." However, the Greeks declared the Moslems of Tchameria as being "merely Albanophones," but in reality Greeks, and on this basis forced them to emigrate (Pallis art. cit.). Pallis argued that they emigrated of their own accord and that they were pleased in Turkey. This, however, is not the opinion of Ruth Pennington who returned to England in 1927 after ten months of work with the immigrants, ‘In Turkey the are 300,000 Albanian-speaking immigrants. Of these at least 10% would willingly shift their quarters and move again seeking for better land, to rejoin cousins and friends, who have already moved. Turkey does not wish for any further depopulation, but in spite of official prohibition, for the next 10 to 20 years there will be a constant leakage . . ." (Near East and India, Sept. 15, 1927, p. 333).
Although in 1913, the population of the south Albanian region ceded to Greece was over 90% Albanian, no Albanian schools or newspapers were ever allowed. This population has been almost extirpated on account of the harsh treatment to which it was subjected.
In regard to Kosova, a territory where Albanians displayed their most important activities for the independence of their nation and a region which, as some scholars contend, is the cradle of the Albanian people, the principles of ethnicity and self determination were not observed. Nor had they been taken into account when districts indisputably Albanian had been allotted to Montenegro and Serbia by the Treaty of Berlin. At that time, the principle of history had been ignored as well.
I hope that this can help the Illyrian Sinan to learn something about Albanians.
Deymark
04-25-2017, 09:36 PM
It's "I don't care about what he believed" not "I don't care of he believed". See not even an Aryan Goth like you knows every thing ;)
You realise that albanian looks nothing like thracian or even dacian?Totally alien languages.yeah I put "of" instead of "what", big deal.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 09:37 PM
You realise that albanian looks nothing like thracian or even dacian?Totally alien languages.yeah I put "of" instead of "what", big deal.
Tut tut prove it Gotlander. An Aryan Goth from Scandinavia like you should know how to spell
Thracian was close to balto-slavic languages.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 09:39 PM
Thracian was close to balto-slavic languages.
Hard to say. It was a Paleo-Balkanic language that's for sure although I have heard such claims before
Hard to say. It was a Paleo-Balkanic language that's for sure although I have heard such claims before
Well, the IE's came from the east and northeast and not via anatolia so it's possible that it was close to baltic languages. Look at latvian, almost pure proto IE language.
Deymark
04-25-2017, 09:42 PM
No gypsy, you didn't answer. Read here:
Your shit spam has no relevance to the subject,I dont give a flying fuck of what happened after 19th century,all of your text being a bunch of opinions from modern 18-19th writters,some mongrel babble from newspapers, and some stories of albanians from 19-20th century.
Do you or do you not have a census or contemporany writting of Albanians existing before slavs in South Serbia?If not, the population status quo is to be supported, that albanians are settlers.It's as simple as this
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 09:44 PM
Well, the IE's came from the east and northeast and not via anatolia so it's possible that it was close to baltic languages. Look at latvian, almost pure proto IE language.
Maybe this is why Albanian shares lexical isoglosses with Balto-Slavic :icon_ask:
Maybe this is why Albanian shares lexical isoglosses with Balto-Slavic :icon_ask:
That is probably due to later slavic influence from the middle ages.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 09:48 PM
That is probably due to later slavic influence from the middle ages.
Nah most of it is old as Albanian has a lot of similarities with it for it to be recent, Albanian also has these similarities with the Germanic languages which is weird tbh
Laberia
04-25-2017, 09:48 PM
I have a little knowledge of Albanians.
If you have little knowledge, then you have to learn and not to talk:
The Serbian army expelled those Albanians living in the region stretching from Leskovac to Nis, which they annexed to Serbia. The Albanian population was driven deeper into the Kosova region...
The Albanians: a modern history - Page 29, Miranda Vickers - 1999
Prior to the Second Serbo-Ottoman War (1877-78), Albanians were the majority population in some areas of Sanjak of Nis (Toplica region), while from the Serb majority district of Vranje Albanian-inhabited villages were emptied after the 1877-78 war...
Kosovo and Metohija: living in the enclave
Dušan T. Bataković - 2007
Muslim Albanians were obliged to flee Kursumlija in 1878 after Serbia expanded into the four southern districts of Nis, Pirot, Toplica, and Vranje
The Muslims of Bosnia-Herzegovina: their historic development from ... - Page 132, Mark Pinson - 1996
http://books.google.com/books?id=Yl3...page&q&f=false
In response, the Albanian population living in Niš, Vranje, Prokuplje and Leskovac was kicked out forcefully by the victorious Serbian army.
Kosovo - Google Books Result
Gail Warrander, Verena Knaus - 2011
Almost all the Muslims were expelled from the Morava valley region: there had been hundreds of Albanian villages there, and significant Albanian populations in towns such as Prokuplje, Leskovac, and Vranje. A Serbian schoolmaster in Leskovac later recalled that the Muslims had been driven out in December 1877 at a time of intense cold: ‘By the roadside, in the Gudelica gorge and as far as Vranje and Kumanovo, you could see the abandoned corpses of children, and old men frozen to death.’... By the end of 1878 Western officials were reporting that there were 60,000 families of Muslim refugees in Macedonia, ‘in a state of extreme destitution’, and 60-70,000 Albanian refugees from Serbia ‘scattered’ over the [Ottoman] vilayet of Kosovo.... This was not, it should be said, a matter of spontaneous hostility by local Serbs. Even one of the Serbian Army commanders had been reluctant to expel the Albanians from Vranje, on the grounds that they were a quiet and peaceful people. But the orders came from the highest levels in Belgrade.
http://books.google.com/books?id=GGQ...ed=0CCkQ6AEwAA
Sanjak of Niš it was a administrative unit of the Ottoman Empire based in Niš, in the Albanian province of Toplica. In some parts of Sanjak of Niš, especially in that of Prokuple and Kurshumli, Albanians constituted the majority of population. At the time of serbian invasion in this region almost all Albanians were displaced in Kosovo, Macedonia, Turkey and other countries .This harsh situation was confirmed also by the Commissary of the Serbian border John Ross who, apart from others when dealing with the situation he had seen, wrote the following:
"Almost all the inhabitants of the western part of the Sanjak of Niš,occupied from Serbia, were Albanians of the Muslim religion..., therefore, when this district was occupied by Serbian military, the population could not stand up to the invaders. All of them left for the Vilayet of Kosovo".
It is estimated that there were "60,000 Albanian refugees spread out in the Vilayet of Kosovo in 1878. They have never gone back to their former villages, as most of them had lost everything...About the number of Albanians who had lived in the Sanjak of Niš,(Prokuple,Kurshumli, Niš,Leskovac, Vranje ,Pirot)there are various records and statistics, which are considerably controversial. The Turkish administration has left notes, in which the population was divided on the basis of religion, Christians and Muslims. Some statistical notes of Serbian and Bulgarian are different and not real, and in some German or English sources the number of Albanians appear much larger.According to Vidosava Nikolic-Stojançevic number of houses and residents in the Sanjak of Niš it was: Nis had 3500 Christian houses and 2000 Turkish-Albanian;Pirot 3000 Christians houses and 400 Turkish-Albanian houses;Leskovac 2500 Christian and 1000 Turkish-Albanian houses; Prokuplje 140 Chrisstian houses and 650 Turkish-Albanian; Vranje 2500 Christian houses and 800 Turkish-Albanian ;Kurshumlia 150 Albanian houses. According to Piliqit Nicholas and his records at work "Oslobodenje juzne Srbije 1877 to 1878" Belgrade, p. 1977. 232 Toplica on the eve of occupation has had 18333 inhabitants, of whom: The district of Prokuple 4618 Serbian, 6207 Turkish and Albanian ; district Kosanica 6708 inhabitants (757 Serb, 5951 Albanian and Turkish and 800 Cerkez).Turkish Population was more concentrated in Nis and Pirot, while in Prokuple, Krushumli, Leskovac and Vranje the majority of the population was Albanian.Even Vidosava Nikolic Stojançeviq states itself that in towns ,in most cases dominant population belonged to the Albanian language, except in Nis and Pirot, where they spoke more Turkish rather than Albanian.According to registration of the Serbian government made on 1 February 1878 Prokuple had 51 Serb houses in 1049 villages, 22 villages were of mixed Serb and Albanian population (822 Albanian houses and 858 Serbian ), only 74 villages with 1538 houses were with Albanian population (for 14 villages there are no notes). For these 14 villages was later confirmed that they had 245 Albanian houses. According to Vidosava Nikolic Stojançevic only 51 villages had Serb population. But based on Muhaxhir surnames who were expulsed to Kosovo, Albanians lived also in the serbian inhabited villages.For instance; Breznica came from the village of Breznica, Devqët from village of Devqa, Kostanicët from Costa-Nica village, Lepajët from Lepaja village, Pojatët from Pojata, etc.According to the information about the language spoken among the Muslims in the cities, we can see of which nationality they were. So, the Muslim population of Niš and Pirot consisted mostly of Turks ; in Vranje and Leskovac they were Turks and Albanians ; Muslims in Prokuplje and Kuršumlja were mostly Albanians.On the basis of abundant data of various sources (Turkish, Serbian, Britain, German, Albanian, etc.) dealing with the number of the immigrated Albanians from south Serbia, one can conclude that there were around 700 villages in that region inhabited once by the Albanians.
Houses and whole villages reduced to ashes, unarmed and innocent populations massacred en masse, incredible acts of violence, pillage and brutality of every kind — such were the means which were employed and are still being employed by the Serbo-Montenegrin soldiery, with a view to the entire transformation of the ethnic character of regions inhabited exclusively by Albanians.
– Report of the International Commission
300.000 Albanians has been expelled from their native land today under servian occupation. Let me repeat again, i am not talking here about Kosova. I am talking about today South servia, or Nish as you mentioned in one of your posts. Learn and don't die ignorant.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 09:50 PM
@Dick: What language do you think Albanian developed from?
Deymark
04-25-2017, 09:52 PM
If you have little knowledge, then you have to learn and not to talk:
300.000 Albanians has been expelled from their native land today under servian occupation. Let me repeat again, i am not talking here about Kosova. I am talking about today South servia, or Nish as you mentioned in one of your posts. Learn and don't die ignorant.
And I don't care of what happened after Middle ages.This is not the subject.The subject is that albanians are recent settlers in South Serbia(as well as most of outside Albania).It is clear that you have no censues or writtings to counter prove it so you try to get biased political writtings from modern era.
Laberia
04-25-2017, 09:54 PM
And I don't care of what happened after Middle ages.This is not the subject.The subject is that albanians are recent settlers in South Serbia(as well as most of outside Albania).It is clear that you have no censues or writtings to counter prove it so you try to get biased political writtings from modern era.
Gypsy, go find your gypsy friends and continue with your BS.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 09:55 PM
I'm bored now
https://s12.postimg.org/avcrt33u5/hey-beter-my-nama-jeff-purchase-3ds-on-ebay-for-.png
IncelSlayer
04-25-2017, 09:55 PM
Gypsy, go find your gypsy friends and continue with your BS.
watch your mouth,i saw Deymark kill people for less than that..
Nah most of it is old as Albanian has a lot of similarities with it for it to be recent
No it's recent input which is why there are so many slav toponyms in Albania too.
Albanian also has these similarities with the Germanic languages which is weird tbh
So does Serbian, for example krompir(potato) is from gromber or ground pear(saxon germanic dialect). Recent input.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 09:56 PM
No it's recent input which is why there are so many slav toponyms in Albania too.
So does Serbian, for example krompir(potato) is from gromber or ground pear(saxon germanic dialect). Recent input.
Will have to research more into it tbh as I don't know much on it
Deymark
04-25-2017, 09:57 PM
I'm a turkco.
Yes, laberians are just albanised turks, and never were christians even.
http://i.imgur.com/gCZsFyi.png
Will have to research more into it tbh as I don't know much on it
linguistics is a lost art. Everyone is into genetics nowadays
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 09:58 PM
watch your mouth,i saw Deymark kill people for less than that..
YOU ARE DEYMARK xD. Anyways you write like him as well since you both have shit grammar, "I saw deymark kill people for less than that" this doesn't make any sense as he didn't mention any number
@Dick: What language do you think Albanian developed from?
I'm guessing it was some form of a satenized greek dialect since Greek is centum.
Laberia
04-25-2017, 10:00 PM
watch your mouth,i saw Deymark kill people for less than that..
Really? His, i mean your mom because you are the same person, well your mom didn't told this when i helped her to go in Italy.
Deymark
04-25-2017, 10:00 PM
YOU ARE DEYMARK xD. Anyways you write like him as well since you both have shit grammar, "I saw deymark kill people for less than that" this doesn't make any sense as he didn't mention any number
I think you just have a reaading disability
Laberia
04-25-2017, 10:01 PM
Yes, laberians are just albanised turks, and never were christians even.
http://i.imgur.com/gCZsFyi.png
Deymark, i have a question. You Romanians are slav or Latin?
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 10:01 PM
I'm guessing it was some form of a satenized greek dialect since Greek is centum.
Nah man I got to disagree. Albanian doesn't have any close relation to Greek linguistically and we lack Greek loanwords as well. What about Illyrian or Daco-Thracian?
Deymark
04-25-2017, 10:02 PM
Deymark, i have a question. You Romanians are slav or Latin?
Are you islamised albanised turk or azeri?
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 10:03 PM
I think you just have a reaading disability
It "reading" not "reaading". A Goth like you should know this tut tut
Nah man I got to disagree. Albanian doesn't have any close relation to Greek linguistically and we lack Greek loanwords as well. What about Illyrian or Daco-Thracian?
also genetics shows that you and greeks are closest to each other, with kosovars having slav input. I've seen kosovars get Bulgarian as their first match on gedmatch for example.
Illyrian was a greek dialect.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 10:03 PM
Are you islamised albanised turk or azeri?
Goth
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 10:05 PM
also genetics shows that you and greeks are closest to each other, with kosovars having slav input. I've seen kosovars get Bulgarian as their first match on gedmatch for example.
Illyrian was a greek dialect.
Yh we are closest to Greeks genetically. I wan't aware about Illyrian being a Greek dialect
IncelSlayer
04-25-2017, 10:05 PM
Goth
you mean both*
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 10:06 PM
you mean both*
GOTH just like Deymark i.e you
Deymark
04-25-2017, 10:06 PM
you mean both*
http://cdn.smosh.com/sites/default/files/ftpuploads/bloguploads/laughing-gifs-jonah-jameson.gif
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 10:07 PM
[IG]http://cdn.smosh.com/sites/default/files/ftpuploads/bloguploads/laughing-gifs-jonah-jameson.gif[/IMG]
I IZ A GOTH THAT CAN'T DO GRAMMAR N SHEIT. Guess who I am trying to be xD............
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 10:08 PM
Guys did you know that Deymark is a Gothic leftover in Romania???????
I wan't aware about Illyrian being a Greek dialect
What else would it be? all of the Serb Adriatic islands have slavicized greek names like Korcula(korkyra)
Coolguy1
04-25-2017, 10:09 PM
We dont know what Illyrian was like, and we probably will never find out. The Thracian theory was disproven. We know this from Thracian toponyms such as Patridava, meaning city of Patri or something along those lines, which does not fit Albanian grammatically.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 10:10 PM
Ethnicity Gut-şiuda xD
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 10:11 PM
What else would it be? all of the Serb Adriatic islands have slavicized greek names like Korcula(korkyra)
I thought that Illyrian would be it's own language in the Balkans that was related to Dacian/Thracian
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 10:11 PM
We dont know what Illyrian was like, and we probably will never find out. The Thracian theory was disproven. We know this from Thracian toponyms such as Patridava, meaning city of Patri or something along those lines, which does not fit Albanian grammatically.
What do you think Albanian came from in terms of linguistics?
I thought that Illyrian would be it's own language in the Balkans that was related to Dacian/Thracian
Illyrian was centum. Come to think if it, albanian could've been satemized due to thracian input.
Coolguy1
04-25-2017, 10:13 PM
The only plausible theory is Illyrian, since Daco-Thracian is ruled out. Even though we have no samples of the Illyrian language, there seems to be no other explanation.
Laberia
04-25-2017, 10:15 PM
Illyrian was centum. Come to think if it, albanian could've been satemized due to thracian input.
What is the difference between a centum and satem language?
Deymark
04-25-2017, 10:16 PM
The only plausible theory is Illyrian, since Daco-Thracian is ruled out. Even though we have no samples of the Illyrian language, there seems to be no other explanation.
Illyrian theory was debunked decades ago, and today its considered a pseudo-theory.Most of albanian scholars dont believe it either, its just thanks to Hoxha that it exists today.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 10:16 PM
Illyrian was centum. Come to think if it, albanian could've been satemized due to thracian input.
Possibly. I personally believe that Albanian is a Thraco-Illyrian mix. We don't know if Illyrian was actually Centum
Coolguy1
04-25-2017, 10:17 PM
Illyrian theory was debunked decades ago, and today its considered a pseudo-theory.Most of albanian scholars dont believe it either, its just thanks to Hoxha that it exists today.
Then what could the Albanian language possible be?
What is the difference between a centum and satem language?
Centum are western IE languages, satem eastern IE languages.
Possibly. I personally believe that Albanian is a Thraco-Illyrian mix. We don't know if Illyrian was actually Centum
It was centum man, just accept it.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 10:18 PM
Then what could the Albanian language possible be?
Bro he believes in the Caucasus theory that got debunked unlike the Illyrian theory although he still claims that the Illyrian theory got debunked
Deymark
04-25-2017, 10:19 PM
Then what could the Albanian language possible be?
https://archive.org/details/KaplanBurovi-WhoAreAlbanians
Very good book , I warmly recommend it, it has opened my eyes.It discusses everything about albanians from history to language.
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 10:21 PM
https://archive.org/details/KaplanBurovi-WhoAreAlbanians
Very good book , I warmly recommend it, it has opened my eyes.It discusses everything about albanians from history to language.
TRASHHHHHHH
Laberia
04-25-2017, 10:24 PM
Centum are western IE languages, satem eastern IE languages.
I asked about the main difference between centum and satem, not their geographic location.
I asked about the main difference between centum and satem, not their geographic location.
Look it up yourself. You have a brain.
Laberia
04-25-2017, 10:29 PM
People are scared from simple questions.
Another question. How happened that ROMAnians became a Latin nation?
Kelmendasi
04-25-2017, 10:31 PM
Deymark take a DNA test, a true Goth like you would score 100% Scandinavian
Deymark
04-25-2017, 10:31 PM
People are scared from simple questions.
No, you just have bad manners like the turk that you are.A lobotomy is your cure.
No, you just have bad manners like the turk that you are.A lobotomy is your cure.
https://youtu.be/6ssoBUb2cJk
Laberia
04-25-2017, 10:33 PM
No, you just have bad manners like the turk that you are.A lobotomy is your cure.
How happened that ROMAnians converted from a slavic nation in Latin nation? Because this is something unike in world history.
Laberia
04-25-2017, 10:36 PM
[video=youtube_share;ssoBUb2cJk[/video]
Dick, the word hundred in Albanian is qind. With this i don't intend to prove that Albanian is a centum language, but that things are much more complicated. It's not like the classification of your ass.
Dick, the word hundred in Albanian is qind. With this i don't intend to prove that Albanian is a centum language, but that things are much more complicated. It's not like the classification of your ass.
Recent centum input from Latin.
Laberia
04-25-2017, 10:40 PM
Recent centum input from Latin.
Recent you mean 2.000 years ago?
Recent you mean 2.000 years ago?
Tha prepei na pame gia mpyra kapoia stigmí.
Pribislav
09-28-2018, 12:08 PM
How can Bosnians be part of R1a when 60% in average are I2,
R1a are predominantly Slovenians, and people from North-Eastern Serbia, and reason
for that are Slavic Migrations obviously.
On the other hand:
People from Southern Serbia are E-V13 predominantly just like Kosovars.
Wrong.
The strongest haplogroup among both southern and northern Serbs is I2a1b, not E-V13 neither R1a.
Carpatz
09-28-2018, 12:20 PM
Thracian was close to balto-slavic languages.
I'm inclined to agree, judging from the vocabulary we know.
balios (Thracian), baltus (Luthuanian), belo (Serbian), white (English)
zilma (Thracian), zelme (Latvian), zelen (Serbian), greens (English)
udra (Thracian), ūdra (Lithanian), vidra (Serbian), otter (English)
gin (Thracian), gnins (Latvian), gnjiti (Serbian), spoil, decay (English)
brink (Thracian), brinkti (Lithuanian), breknuti (Serbian), swell (English)
kiri (Thracian), giria, gire (Lithuanian), gora (Serbian), mountain forest (English)
saltas, zaldas (Thracian), zelt (Latvian), zlato (Serbian), gold (English)
zum, zuml (Thracian), zmaj, zmija (Serbian), dragon, snake (English)
laza (Thracian), laz, lazina (Serbian), clearing in forest (English)
Pribislav
09-28-2018, 12:34 PM
https://i.imgur.com/0oITg53.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/herHfb9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/8WEwRCG.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/yyT6U1u.jpg
https://spacezilotes.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/image76.png
https://spacezilotes.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/image78.png
https://spacezilotes.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/image79.png
Vlatko Vukovic
09-28-2018, 12:58 PM
Wrong.
The strongest haplogroup among both southern and northern Serbs is I2a1b, not E-V13 neither R1a.
For Bosniensis, I2a is nationality and ethnicity. He calls I2a Ukrainians and Russians as Southern Slavs.
So the conclusion is, in the Balkans I2-din is more reliable marker of Slavic expansion compared to R1a ?
Vlatko Vukovic
09-28-2018, 01:04 PM
https://i.imgur.com/0oITg53.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/herHfb9.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/8WEwRCG.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/yyT6U1u.jpg
https://spacezilotes.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/image76.png
https://spacezilotes.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/image78.png
https://spacezilotes.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/image79.png
Yes, there are cognates, and Baltic nationalists already proclaimed Thracian as Baltic language. :)
Pribislav
09-28-2018, 02:01 PM
Yes, there are cognates, and Baltic nationalists already proclaimed Thracian as Baltic language. :)
Some Swedes claim that Swedes are descendants of Thracians! :) www.osterholm.net/thracian.html
Thracians descended from Trakai (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trakai)
Vlatko Vukovic
09-28-2018, 07:28 PM
Some Swedes claim that Swedes are descendants of Thracians! :) www.osterholm.net/thracian.html
Yes. Many science-fiction hypothesis we can see today. :D
Kelmendasi
09-28-2018, 08:39 PM
Yes, there are cognates, and Baltic nationalists already proclaimed Thracian as Baltic language. :)
The cognates imo are just from the fact that they are both Satem languages, Albanian shares cognates with Baltic languages as well and for the same reason. I highly doubt Thracian and Dacian would have stemmed from the Balto-Slavic language. But I can't argue that they may have had a common ancestor
Vlatko Vukovic
09-29-2018, 12:55 PM
The cognates imo are just from the fact that they are both Satem languages, Albanian shares cognates with Baltic languages as well and for the same reason. I highly doubt Thracian and Dacian would have stemmed from the Balto-Slavic language. But I can't argue that they may have had a common ancestor
I said it ironically, since you can found today on many portals by letto-lithuanian nationalists that Thrachian, Dacian, Slavic... all of them are Baltic languages (or "descend" from them) according to some latvians and lithuanians. :)
Tha fact that Balts preserved the most archaic language doesn't mean that proto-language is exclusively for them, but also for Slavs, and (perhaps?) also for Thrachians, Dachians... etc :))
Kelmendasi
09-29-2018, 01:13 PM
I said it ironically, since you can found today on many portals by letto-lithuanian nationalists that Thrachian, Dacian, Slavic... all of them are Baltic languages (or "descend" from them) according to some latvians and lithuanians. :)
Tha fact that Balts preserved the most archaic language doesn't mean that proto-language is exclusively for them, but also for Slavs, and (perhaps?) also for Thrachians, Dachians... etc :))
Yh I know, I was just trying to debunk it for those who actually believe it. Agreed
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