North African GEDMATCH kits?

[Lucas]

Moroccan, Algerian, Tunsian, Libyan. Somebody could post? In Gedmatch it's impossble to find.

[Petalpusher]

I ve seen many but didn't save their kit numbers.

Here s one though, northern Moroccan:

T735750


K6
Population
Ancestral_North_Eurasian 9.93
Ancestral_South_Eurasian -
East_Asian 0.33
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 22.89
Natufian 45.70
Sub_Saharan 21.15


K7
Population
ANE -
ASE -
WHG-UHG 23.74
East_Eurasian 1.62
West_African 0.67
East_African 21.57
ENF 52.39


K10
Population
CHG 16.25
Amerindian -
W_African 19.63
Papuan 0.69
SW_Asian 25.11
S_Indian -
E_Asian 0.40
WHG 15.16
Anatolian_Farmers 22.76
EHG -



K15
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 23.95
2 West_Med 21.85
3 Atlantic 15.46
4 Red_Sea 15.42
5 Northeast_African 11.65
6 Sub-Saharan 11.53
7 Amerindian 0.13
8 Southeast_Asian 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Mozabite_Berber 3.85
2 Tunisian 5.29
3 Algerian 7.17
4 Moroccan 7.65
5 Egyptian 21.72

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Mozabite_Berber +50% Tunisian @ 4.185132

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Mozabite_Berber +25% Mozabite_Berber +25% Tunisian @ 3.992753

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 Mozabite_Berber + Mozabite_Berber + Mozabite_Berber + Tunisian @ 3.992753

1 70.1% Mozabite_Berber + 29.9% Tunisian @ 3.44



K16
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NorthAfrican 27.72
2 Neolithic 19.48
3 Caucasian 18.13
4 NearEast 12.83
5 Subsaharian 9.01
6 EastAfrican 6.29
7 NorthEastEuropean 3.46
8 Steppe 2.64
9 Amerindian 0.39
10 Australian 0.06




Always around 20% SSA, which is the normal thing for northern Morrocco. Usually a bit less in Algeria. Also interesting case to see how as the K increases, it breaks it down further but still is the same overall amount. For example once you reach K16, it's in N.African + SSA + East African.

[Lucas]

Thanks:) I will post some If I find.

[Lucas]

I find this in EuK15 Mozabite Berber M303344 but 32% Subsaharan, maybe too much?

A224684 Tunisian in EuK15

[Petalpusher]

I find this in EuK15 Mozabite Berber M303344 but 32% Subsaharan, maybe too much?

A224684 Tunisian in EuK15

I ve seen higher than this. Usually your random Morrocan is at 25% but can easily go higher, specially as you go south.

[Hadouken]

I would like to see Kabyle results

[Sikeliot]

This person seems to be close to full Berber. Interesting results on Eurogenes K15.

Population Percent
1 East_Med 23.95
2 West_Med 21.85
3 Atlantic 15.46
4 Red_Sea 15.42
5 Northeast_African 11.65
6 Sub-Saharan 11.53
7 Amerindian 0.13
8 Southeast_Asian 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Mozabite_Berber 3.85
2 Tunisian 5.29
3 Algerian 7.17
4 Moroccan 7.65
5 Egyptian 21.72
6 Algerian_Jewish 22.13
7 Tunisian_Jewish 23.58
8 Libyan_Jewish 24.02
9 Sephardic_Jewish 24.11
10 West_Sicilian 24.15
11 Italian_Jewish 24.28
12 East_Sicilian 25.4
13 Ashkenazi 25.6
14 South_Italian 26.37
15 Bedouin 26.83
16 Tuscan 26.97
17 Italian_Abruzzo 27.6
18 Central_Greek 27.74
19 Jordanian 28.6
20 Greek 28.64

[Leto]

I find this in EuK15 Mozabite Berber M303344 but 32% Subsaharan, maybe too much?
Ths Algerian soccer player disagrees with you;)
http://e1.365dm.com/14/06/800x600/football-yacine-brahimi-algeria_3159407.jpg?20140617142744

[Lucas]

Come on:)

[PunhetaDeBacalhau]

Hey! Here are some that I have:

MOROCCAN
T365742
T715648
T454022
M374338 - Has 45% North_African in k36 with very low West African and low Near Eastern and Arabian, "Purest" Berber I have

ALGERIAN
T792916
M770771

TUNISIAN
M504659
(next three are family)
M007437
M392786
M399400

EGYPTIAN
Copt:
M735006

[Lucas]

Nice!
This is what I have. Designations are according to some calculators, in others they are for example Mozabite Berbers.
T735750 N,MArocco
MAroko / Alg M009453
A224684 Tunisian
M486530 Tunisian
T313649 Tunisian
M538925 tunisian
M303344 Algerian
M000570 Algerian
T365742 Algerian
M930030
M457115
M047926

[Lucas]

Stats for them in K36. As you see I tried to find those with lowest West African. North East african in this calc is probably Egyptian. East African is Horner maybe.
https://s7.postimg.org/s0jj2xnor/berbers.jpg

[Lucas]

I uploaded pure Mozabite Berber from HGDP
T691712

His result in K36

Arabian 3.00
Central_African 0.05
East_African 0.80
Iberian 8.64
Near_Eastern 4.57
North_African 64.17
Northeast_African 3.01
Omotic 0.68
Pygmy 0.35
West_African 4.67
West_Med 5.01


MDLP K23b
Population

Caucasian 1.46
European_Early_Farmers 4.84
Archaic_African 5.29
North_African 86.86
African_Pygmy 0.69
European_Hunters_Gatherers 0.80

# Population (source) Distance
1 Mozabite ( ) 12.99
2 Saharawi ( ) 33.79
3 Berber_WGA ( ) 34.97
4 Morocco_South ( ) 43.93
5 Moroccan ( ) 51.66
6 Algerian ( ) 51.77
7 Shaigi_Sudan ( ) 53.46
8 Tunisian ( ) 56.4
9 Amhara ( ) 79.51
10 Spanish_Canarias_IBS ( ) 83.33

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 100% Mozabite ( ) + 0% !Kung ( ) @ 12.99


So pure Berbers have likely 5% West African.
20-25% is just one black slave ancestor for supposed modern North African.

[PunhetaDeBacalhau]

Stats for them in K36. As you see I tried to find those with lowest West African. North East african in this calc is probably Egyptian. East African is Horner maybe.

Nice work :)

Northeast_African is the Ethiopians with the lowest SSA:

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B9o3EYTdM8lQUlVTRmxQdGpZdW8/edit

Doing an average of North Africans is indeed complicated as their SSA (more the West African) fluctuates a lot. The Northeast African is more constant, it's mostly stabilized and probably came with their Y-DNA E-M78. Some Northern Moroccans like the one I gave you before (M374338) are almost free of West African, but they're becoming a very rare thing...

[Lucas]

Later I check yours and post updated stats.

[Lucas]

Interesting why Iberian in North Africans?

[PunhetaDeBacalhau]

I uploaded pure Mozabite Berber from HGDP
T691712

20-25% is just one black slave ancestor for supposed modern North African.

It's not optimal to test North African HGDP genomes as they're being used as source for the North African component in this calculator, so they're gonna get inflated North African values due to being compared to themselves.

Even today Northern Moroccans aren't 20-25% SSA, that only happens when you remove the North African component, like in the k15. They're more like 10-12%. A short explanation of it is already on Anthrogenica, so I'll just redirect you to it:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?7147-North-African-Berber-results&p=201467&viewfull=1#post201467

Southern Moroccans are a different story, they fluctuate a lot, and a lot of them migrate north. I wouldn't be surprised if by the end of this century Morocco becomes almost a Sub-Saharan African country ethnically, if things continue like this.

[PunhetaDeBacalhau]

Interesting why Iberian in North Africans?

Probably comes from Iberomaurasian times.

Almost certainly Iberomaurusian/Oranian is an offshoot of SW European Solutrean. Iberomaurasian is the first known Upper Paleolithic ("mode 4") culture in NW Africa (West of Cyrenaica) and Taforalt is the oldest of its sites if I'm correct, with a pattern of expansion from West to East also apparent in the mtDNA U6 substructure (U6a however may have back-migrated from Nubia later on, along other lineages).

Anyway, Iberomaurasian or not, it's old, and more similar to Neolithic Farmer-Iberians than modern day Iberians.

[Lucas]

I didn't use Mozabite Berber in general stats. He is only for comparison here. But it's real person either.
Another story that in one-to-many I can find because of him many other Berbers (which are not part of reference set).

[Antimage]

Interesting why Iberian in North Africans?

expulsion of iberian muslims to north africa? Afaik most moors/muslims in Spain were native converts.

[PunhetaDeBacalhau]

expulsion of iberian muslims to north africa?

Some of it probably is, but expulsed muslims spread out all over North Africa, many are in Tunisia for example. But I don't know much about it.

[Petalpusher]

I uploaded pure Mozabite Berber from HGDP
T691712

His result in K36

Arabian 3.00
Central_African 0.05
East_African 0.80
Iberian 8.64
Near_Eastern 4.57
North_African 64.17
Northeast_African 3.01
Omotic 0.68
Pygmy 0.35
West_African 4.67
West_Med 5.01


MDLP K23b
Population

Caucasian 1.46
European_Early_Farmers 4.84
Archaic_African 5.29
North_African 86.86
African_Pygmy 0.69
European_Hunters_Gatherers 0.80

# Population (source) Distance
1 Mozabite ( ) 12.99
2 Saharawi ( ) 33.79
3 Berber_WGA ( ) 34.97
4 Morocco_South ( ) 43.93
5 Moroccan ( ) 51.66
6 Algerian ( ) 51.77
7 Shaigi_Sudan ( ) 53.46
8 Tunisian ( ) 56.4
9 Amhara ( ) 79.51
10 Spanish_Canarias_IBS ( ) 83.33

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 100% Mozabite ( ) + 0% !Kung ( ) @ 12.99


So pure Berbers have likely 5% West African.


This one is +20% West African like all the others, he just score more "N.African" which obviously has SSA already, because he s Berber and that's what the source of the "N.African" is based on. It's in the NE Africa as well.


T691712

K6
Ancestral_North_Eurasian 8.34
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.94
East_Asian -
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 22.87
Natufian 45.17
Sub_Saharan 22.69


K7
ANE -
ASE -
WHG-UHG 23.18
East_Eurasian 1.28
West_African 0.86
East_African 23.35
ENF 51.33


As long as you won't understand how this basics of admixture works, there s no point running calculators at such high K.


Same applies to the one who supposedly score 6% on K36, T735750:

Population
Ancestral_North_Eurasian 9.93
Ancestral_South_Eurasian -
East_Asian 0.33
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 22.89
Natufian 45.70
Sub_Saharan 21.15

Very average for N.Morocco



The Algerian with 26% on K36, M303344

Population
Ancestral_North_Eurasian 6.03
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.23
East_Asian 1.97
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 15.26
Natufian 32.58
Sub_Saharan 43.94

rather far south / recent sub sahara

[Leto]

As long as you won't understand how this basics of admixture works, there s no point running calculators at such high K.
If the NE African is SSA too, then K13 is quite accurate.

[MsSPF]

Do not thank me

My results

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 26.76
2 East_Med 24.55
3 North_Atlantic 15.07
4 Red_Sea 14.79
5 Sub-Saharan 10.31
6 Northeast_African 7.27
7 East_Asian 0.73
8 Oceanian 0.51
9 Siberian 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Mozabite_Berber 6.51
2 Algerian 7.17
3 Moroccan 7.92
4 Tunisian 8.56
5 Algerian_Jewish 19.68
6 West_Sicilian 20.73
7 Libyan_Jewish 21.04
8 Sephardic_Jewish 21.84
9 Tunisian_Jewish 21.88
10 East_Sicilian 21.97
11 Italian_Jewish 22.04
12 South_Italian 22.6
13 Ashkenazi 23.01
14 Tuscan 23.38
15 Egyptian 23.77
16 Central_Greek 24.2
17 Italian_Abruzzo 24.24
18 Greek_Thessaly 25.74
19 North_Italian 26.44
20 Bedouin 27.39

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 88.1% Mozabite_Berber + 11.9% French_Basque @ 2.87
2 85.2% Mozabite_Berber + 14.8% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.99
3 83.9% Mozabite_Berber + 16.1% Spanish_Andalucia @ 3.16
4 84.7% Mozabite_Berber + 15.3% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 3.23
5 85.4% Mozabite_Berber + 14.6% Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.27
6 86.3% Mozabite_Berber + 13.7% Southwest_French @ 3.31
7 84.8% Mozabite_Berber + 15.2% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.31
8 83.5% Mozabite_Berber + 16.5% Spanish_Extremadura @ 3.32
9 84.3% Mozabite_Berber + 15.7% Spanish_Murcia @ 3.4
10 84.4% Mozabite_Berber + 15.6% Spanish_Galicia @ 3.53
11 84.9% Mozabite_Berber + 15.1% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 3.54
12 85.6% Mozabite_Berber + 14.4% Spanish_Cataluna @ 3.56
13 84.3% Mozabite_Berber + 15.7% Portuguese @ 3.61
14 84.9% Mozabite_Berber + 15.1% Sardinian @ 3.8
15 83.3% Mozabite_Berber + 16.7% North_Italian @ 3.85
16 87.7% Algerian + 12.3% French_Basque @ 3.85
17 83.4% Algerian + 16.6% Sardinian @ 4.05
18 85.1% Tunisian + 14.9% French_Basque @ 4.07
19 88.1% Mozabite_Berber + 11.9% French @ 4.28
20 82.4% Mozabite_Berber + 17.6% Tuscan @ 4.3

North Moroccan/Riffian

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 27.79
2 West_Med 22.76
3 Red_Sea 15.32
4 North_Atlantic 13.18
5 Northeast_African 9.42
6 Sub-Saharan 9.4
7 East_Asian 1.2
8 Siberian 0.52
9 Amerindian 0.42

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Algerian 2.87
2 Mozabite_Berber 4.62
3 Tunisian 4.69
4 Moroccan 5.84
5 Libyan_Jewish 18.31
6 Algerian_Jewish 18.38
7 Egyptian 18.88
8 Tunisian_Jewish 19.41
9 Sephardic_Jewish 20.44
10 Italian_Jewish 20.63
11 West_Sicilian 21.21
12 East_Sicilian 21.68
13 Ashkenazi 21.73
14 South_Italian 22.47
15 Bedouin 23.56
16 Central_Greek 24.19
17 Italian_Abruzzo 24.56
18 Tuscan 24.76
19 Jordanian 25.5
20 Palestinian 26.09

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 93.9% Algerian + 6.1% Spanish_Aragon @ 1.61
2 93.2% Algerian + 6.8% Spanish_Murcia @ 1.64
3 93.3% Algerian + 6.7% Spanish_Andalucia @ 1.67
4 95.3% Algerian + 4.7% French_Basque @ 1.68
5 93.7% Algerian + 6.3% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 1.69
6 93.7% Algerian + 6.3% Spanish_Valencia @ 1.71
7 93.2% Algerian + 6.8% Spanish_Extremadura @ 1.73
8 93.6% Algerian + 6.4% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 1.76
9 94% Algerian + 6% Spanish_Cataluna @ 1.78
10 94.2% Algerian + 5.8% Spanish_Cantabria @ 1.79
11 93.4% Algerian + 6.6% Portuguese @ 1.8
12 93.6% Algerian + 6.4% Spanish_Galicia @ 1.82
13 94.5% Algerian + 5.5% Southwest_French @ 1.82
14 92.9% Algerian + 7.1% North_Italian @ 1.88
15 92.2% Algerian + 7.8% Tuscan @ 1.96
16 94.9% Algerian + 5.1% French @ 2
17 96.2% Algerian + 3.8% Southwest_English @ 2.12
18 96.2% Algerian + 3.8% Southeast_English @ 2.15
19 95.8% Algerian + 4.2% South_Dutch @ 2.16
20 96.4% Algerian + 3.6% West_Scottish @ 2.16

NorthWestern Algerian :

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 29.21
2 West_Med 21.9
3 Red_Sea 16.4
4 North_Atlantic 13.55
5 Sub-Saharan 8.95
6 Northeast_African 8.86
7 East_Asian 0.61
8 Oceanian 0.38
9 Amerindian 0.13
10 Siberian 0.01

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Algerian 3.54
2 Tunisian 4.74
3 Mozabite_Berber 5.89
4 Moroccan 6.77
5 Libyan_Jewish 17.41
6 Egyptian 17.81
7 Algerian_Jewish 17.85
8 Tunisian_Jewish 18.49
9 Sephardic_Jewish 19.7
10 Italian_Jewish 19.94
11 West_Sicilian 21.09
12 Ashkenazi 21.26
13 East_Sicilian 21.46
14 South_Italian 22.24
15 Bedouin 22.45
16 Central_Greek 24.03
17 Italian_Abruzzo 24.39
18 Jordanian 24.59
19 Tuscan 24.77
20 Palestinian 24.96

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 89.8% Algerian + 10.2% Sephardic_Jewish @ 2.76
2 91.9% Algerian + 8.1% Tuscan @ 2.8
3 90.1% Algerian + 9.9% Italian_Jewish @ 2.8
4 91% Algerian + 9% West_Sicilian @ 2.87
5 94.1% Algerian + 5.9% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.88
6 94.8% Algerian + 5.2% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.9
7 94.5% Algerian + 5.5% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.92
8 93.5% Algerian + 6.5% North_Italian @ 2.92
9 92.4% Algerian + 7.6% Italian_Abruzzo @ 2.93
10 94.1% Algerian + 5.9% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.93
11 94.6% Algerian + 5.4% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.94
12 94.5% Algerian + 5.5% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.95
13 94.2% Algerian + 5.8% Portuguese @ 2.95
14 94.4% Algerian + 5.6% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.95
15 94.8% Algerian + 5.2% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.95
16 90.4% Algerian + 9.6% Tunisian_Jewish @ 2.96
17 94.6% Algerian + 5.4% Spanish_Galicia @ 2.99
18 95.4% Algerian + 4.6% French @ 3
19 95.2% Algerian + 4.8% Spanish_Cantabria @ 3.03
20 92% Algerian + 8% Ashkenazi @ 3.03

NorthWestern Algerian :

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 27.4
2 West_Med 25.02
3 North_Atlantic 13.2
4 Red_Sea 11.91
5 Sub-Saharan 9.55
6 Northeast_African 8.45
7 Baltic 3.29
8 Oceanian 0.53
9 East_Asian 0.43
10 Amerindian 0.23

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Algerian 5.96
2 Tunisian 6.35
3 Mozabite_Berber 6.44
4 Moroccan 8.17
5 Algerian_Jewish 17
6 Libyan_Jewish 18.51
7 West_Sicilian 18.9
8 Tunisian_Jewish 19.47
9 Italian_Jewish 19.57
10 East_Sicilian 19.59
11 Ashkenazi 19.84
12 Sephardic_Jewish 19.86
13 South_Italian 20.54
14 Egyptian 21.31
15 Central_Greek 21.93
16 Tuscan 22.24
17 Italian_Abruzzo 22.59
18 Greek_Thessaly 23.24
19 Bedouin 25.58
20 North_Italian 25.87

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 85.8% Tunisian + 14.2% Southwest_French @ 2.3
2 85.2% Tunisian + 14.8% Spanish_Cantabria @ 2.46
3 88.6% Tunisian + 11.4% French_Basque @ 2.62
4 84.5% Tunisian + 15.5% Spanish_Valencia @ 2.62
5 84% Tunisian + 16% Spanish_Andalucia @ 2.63
6 84.8% Tunisian + 15.2% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 2.67
7 85.7% Tunisian + 14.3% Spanish_Aragon @ 2.69
8 84.1% Tunisian + 15.9% Spanish_Galicia @ 2.75
9 84.6% Tunisian + 15.4% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 2.79
10 79.2% Mozabite_Berber + 20.8% Tuscan @ 2.79
11 85.2% Tunisian + 14.8% Spanish_Cataluna @ 2.8
12 83.6% Tunisian + 16.4% Spanish_Extremadura @ 2.8
13 83.8% Tunisian + 16.2% Portuguese @ 2.82
14 84.3% Tunisian + 15.7% Spanish_Murcia @ 2.86
15 81.8% Mozabite_Berber + 18.2% North_Italian @ 2.97
16 76.7% Mozabite_Berber + 23.3% West_Sicilian @ 3.08
17 82.3% Tunisian + 17.7% North_Italian @ 3.11
18 80.5% Mozabite_Berber + 19.5% Greek_Thessaly @ 3.2
19 83.7% Algerian + 16.3% North_Italian @ 3.22
20 86.6% Algerian + 13.4% Spanish_Valencia @ 3.44

Algerian chawi (NorthEastern Algeria) :

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 28.95
2 West_Med 19.96
3 Red_Sea 16.78
4 Northeast_African 12.26
5 North_Atlantic 11.93
6 Sub-Saharan 9.46
7 Siberian 0.66

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Algerian 3.57
2 Tunisian 5.35
3 Mozabite_Berber 5.97
4 Moroccan 6.28
5 Egyptian 16.16
6 Libyan_Jewish 18.8
7 Tunisian_Jewish 20.14
8 Algerian_Jewish 20.21
9 Sephardic_Jewish 22
10 Bedouin 22.04
11 Italian_Jewish 22.29
12 Ashkenazi 23.33
13 East_Sicilian 23.69
14 West_Sicilian 23.77
15 Jordanian 24.34
16 South_Italian 24.68
17 Palestinian 25.09
18 Syrian 26.27
19 Central_Greek 26.3
20 Italian_Abruzzo 26.77

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 94% Algerian + 6% Ethiopian_Tigray @ 2.31
2 94.3% Algerian + 5.7% Ethiopian_Amhara @ 2.35
3 95.5% Algerian + 4.5% Ethiopian_Oromo @ 2.63
4 95.9% Algerian + 4.1% Ethiopian_Wolayta @ 2.65
5 95.8% Algerian + 4.2% Somali @ 2.66
6 97.3% Algerian + 2.7% Ethiopian_Ari_cultivator @ 2.93
7 89.8% Algerian + 10.2% Egyptian @ 3.07
8 95.2% Algerian + 4.8% Yemenite_Jewish @ 3.19
9 98% Algerian + 2% Ethiopian_Gumuz @ 3.23
10 95.4% Algerian + 4.6% Saudi @ 3.24
11 97.8% Algerian + 2.2% Maasai @ 3.31
12 98.2% Algerian + 1.8% Hadza @ 3.33
13 95.1% Algerian + 4.9% Bedouin @ 3.39
14 98.5% Algerian + 1.5% Ethiopian_Anuak @ 3.41
15 91.5% Tunisian + 8.5% Ethiopian_Amhara @ 3.42
16 91.2% Tunisian + 8.8% Ethiopian_Tigray @ 3.42
17 98.3% Algerian + 1.7% Sandawe @ 3.42
18 96.2% Algerian + 3.8% Palestinian @ 3.43
19 96.1% Algerian + 3.9% Jordanian @ 3.43
20 98.8% Algerian + 1.2% Sudanese @ 3.45

[Lucas]

This one is +20% West African like all the others, he just score more "N.African" which obviously has SSA already, because he s Berber and that's what the source of the "N.African" is based on. It's in the NE Africa as well.

K6

K7


As long as you won't understand how this basics of admixture works, there s no point running calculators at such high K.


Well, why not K3:) ? It will elevate African in Berber even higher... Some people don't like high K calculators because they show all their undesirable admixtures. Which were hidden in low K calcs:)

Also I trust Davidski more.


The main purpose of the Eurogenes K36 is to help users unravel the ethnic origins of local areas of their genomes (aka. half-segments), hence the high number of ancestral categories, some of which are very specific. In other words, the test is mainly a chromosome painting utility.

Also worth mentioning is that this test focuses on much deeper ancestry than the Ancestry Composition at 23andMe. Hence, I expect that many Europeans will score a few percent in non-European clusters.

So low SSA in Mozabite Berber used as reference by Davidski is not accidental. You are right that in other calcs without specific North African category it is partly divided between other African components.

But why exclude half of Africa from having his own component? Berbers score higher SSA in other calcs because they were divided between West Asian, South European and SSA components. That's the whole secret.

Why you don't post MDLP k23b for this Mozabite T691712 which has in K36 64% North African?

Population
Caucasian 1.46
European_Early_Farmers 4.84
Archaic_African 5.29
North_African 86.86
African_Pygmy 0.69
European_Hunters_Gatherers 0.80

[Petalpusher]

Well, why not K3:) ? It will elevate African in Berber even higher... Some people don't like high K calculators because they show all their undesirable admixtures. Which were hidden in low K calcs:)

Also I trust Davidski more.



So low SSA in Mozabite Berber used as reference by Davidski is not accidental. You are right that in other calcs without specific North African category it is partly divided between other African components.

But why exclude half of Africa from having his own component? Berbers score higher SSA in other calcs because they were divided between West Asian, South European and SSA components. That's the whole secret.

Why you don't post MDLP k23b for this Mozabite T691712 which has in K36 64% North African?

Population
Caucasian 1.46
European_Early_Farmers 4.84
Archaic_African 5.29
North_African 86.86
African_Pygmy 0.69
European_Hunters_Gatherers 0.80




As long as most Eurasians score 0% or 0,x%, it's a relevant score, even at K3, but no need to restrict the K that much to get the right amount, even a K10 gives you the correct estimation with enough other components to make it reasonnable.

Im not disagreeing with what Eurogenes says, im disagreeing with the interpretation you make of K36. You re just spreading the SSA everywhere at this K, in West Africa, NE Africa, N.Africa, Near eastern, Arabia,.. It can give interesting clues about where it was picked up but it doesn't make people magically 5 times less SSA.

It's like thinking the 100% European on 23andme must be 100% indigenous mesolithic Euro, with no Neolithic or Bronze Age influence. Studies use a wide range of K, they know what they are dealing with, though they don't use very high K, it's terrible at some point to get an estimation of one of the 3 main ancestral elements (Europe/SSA/E Asia), high K is not suited for that at all. K5-K15 is a good range.


What about T691712? He surely isn't 4.9% SSA.


K3
E_Eurasian -
SSA 25.82
W_Eurasian 74.18


K6
Ancestral_North_Eurasian 8.34
Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.94
East_Asian -
West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 22.87
Natufian 45.17
Sub_Saharan 22.69



K10
CHG 12.40
Amerindian -
W_African 21.85
Papuan 0.32
SW_Asian 24.96
S_Indian -
E_Asian -
WHG 15.52
Anatolian_Farmers 24.02
EHG 0.92


PuntK12

Sub-Saharan 21.54
Amerindian 0.24
South_Asian -
Near_East 26.55
Siberian 1.15
European_HG 0.79
Caucasus_HG -
South_African_HG -
Anatolian_NF 49.36
East_Asian -
Oceanian 0.37

At K10, SW_Asian already begins to hide a part of it, about 7-8% of that score is SSA, but a well sorted K10 is a good compromise. In the same way at K12, a little is in the "near east" and ANF encompasses most of the WHG they score at lower K (which is absolutely real, and not 0.79%), it starts to do that in K10 as well.

The lowest i ve ever seen are between 12-15% SSA, at K10. Some N.Algeria, Tunisians,.. they appear in oracle as having an European grandparent, even if they surely don't. 5% doesn't exist anywhere. Msspf is around 15% which is the lower end for N.African but normal for her region.

[Lucas]

Do not thank me

My results

Thanks.
Do you know of any Kabyle results? Or you are one maybe?

[Lucas]

At K10, SW_Asian already begins to hide a part of it, about 7-8% of that score is SSA, but a well sorted K10 is a good compromise. In the same way at K12, a little is in the "near east" and ANF encompasses most of the WHG they score at lower K (which is absolutely real, and not 0.79%), it starts to do that in K10 as well.


I understand your points For some regions I agreee that East-Med and Near-East for the same people (Levant) or Omotic, North-East African and east African it's too much.
But North Africa is different case. Every big world region with well established, since thousands of years, local population could have their own component.

You score high on North Atlantic and North Sea yes? Imagine situation when in most of the calcs those components don't exist and for example French people are modeled from West Med, Central Euro, Balkan and Baltic / East Euro. And in one high K calc there are North Sea and North Atlantic components. Some people will say:
"Cool, I'm North West Euro now mostly, I don't have those Baltic and Balkan any more!"
But you will tell them - "No, no, no. You are still Baltid and Balkanite partly (let's say 25%). In low K calcs you score even higher..."

25% African is equivalent of having one fully Black grandparent yes? If Atlas Berbers are mostly quadroons? I'm not telling about South Morocco or big cities but some highland, rural populations.

[Petalpusher]

I understand your points For some regions I agreee that East-Med and Near-East for the same people (Levant) or Omotic, North-East African and east African it's too much.
But North Africa is different case. Every big world region with well established, since thousands of years, local population could have their own component.

You score high on North Atlantic and North Sea yes? Imagine situation when in most of the calcs those components don't exist and for example French people are modeled from West Med, Central Euro, Balkan and Baltic / East Euro. And in one high K calc there are North Sea and North Atlantic components. Some people will say:
"Cool, I'm North West Euro now mostly, I don't have those Baltic and Balkan any more!"
But you will tell them - "No, no, no. You are still Baltid and Balkanite partly (let's say 25%). In low K calcs you score even higher..."


All i m saying is we have to be more careful at high K. This is not the right type of calculator to estimate something as ethnically fundamental as SSA (or WHG, E.Asian for instance), because you break it down to much and individually the same thing is gonna spread everywhere, even kinda randomly at really high K.

I could create a calculator for a single country with components based on each regions, like a K30. I would make appear all the people of the same country, even a very homogenous one, as extremely different, it would even create gigantic oracle distances between them, when they are not that different at all in reality. You can do that though to see regional differences and a nation at finescale, see movements eventually between the inner regions, etc.. but not to tell ethnically what people are really made of. Look at for example your Berber on k23b, he is not @50 from a Moroccan, it's articifically inflated by the high K as it creates more divergences but at low/moderate K, he would be almost like a regular Moroccan and that's obviously much closer to the reality.

These Baltic, Atlantic, North Sea etc.. don't exist, nobody has ever been 100% Atlantic people for example. There s not even a modern population or an ancient sample where the components are located. On the other hand, 100% WHG, SSA, E.Asian people, do or did exist.

[MsSPF]

Thanks.
Do you know of any Kabyle results? Or you are one maybe?

I will maybe post other results later.

I am not kabyle, Im from NorthWestern Algeria, a small Berber Arabophone tribe related to Moroccan Riffians.
Kabyles have similar results than other northern Algerians from what I saw, their genetic differences are a myth.
The main differences for NorthWest Africans is the more you go to the south, the more the SSA admix is important, the more you go to north, the more you score "northern components" (lets call it that way).
Moroccans and NorthWestern Algerians tend to score more WestMed while Eastern Algerians (including kabyles) and Tunisians score way more EastMed.

The average Northern Moroccan/Algerian/Tunisian score between 14 and 21% (hidden or not) SSA.
Depends of your region and how mixed your family is.
When you go more south, its higher.
I think the lowest I saw is from a former Riffian member here (around 12/13%)

[Lucas]

I will maybe post other results later.

I am not kabyle, Im from NorthWestern Algeria, a small Berber Arabophone tribe related to Moroccan Riffians.

Thanks for info. From what calculators are your results? Eu k13?


I think the lowest I saw is from a former Riffian member here (around 12/13%)

Also in what calcs?

[PunhetaDeBacalhau]

Im not disagreeing with what Eurogenes says, im disagreeing with the interpretation you make of K36. You re just spreading the SSA everywhere at this K, in West Africa, NE Africa, N.Africa, Near eastern, Arabia,.. It can give interesting clues about where it was picked up but it doesn't make people magically 5 times less SSA.

What do you disagree with of the things that Chad Rohflsen said on Anthrogenica? Or basically anyone that has studied Natufians for example. Admixture shows them as being 10%+ SSA, but everyone today knows they have no African, it's Basal Eurasian, and the reason there still aren't calculators that include Basal is because we still don't have their genomes, they're a ghost population.

[PunhetaDeBacalhau]

I will maybe post other results later.

I am not kabyle, Im from NorthWestern Algeria, a small Berber Arabophone tribe related to Moroccan Riffians.
Kabyles have similar results than other northern Algerians from what I saw, their genetic differences are a myth.
The main differences for NorthWest Africans is the more you go to the south, the more the SSA admix is important, the more you go to north, the more you score "northern components" (lets call it that way).
Moroccans and NorthWestern Algerians tend to score more WestMed while Eastern Algerians (including kabyles) and Tunisians score way more EastMed.

The average Northern Moroccan/Algerian/Tunisian score between 14 and 21% (hidden or not) SSA.
Depends of your region and how mixed your family is.
When you go more south, its higher.
I think the lowest I saw is from a former Riffian member here (around 12/13%)

Out of curiosity, have you done the Eurogenes Basal-rich K7? Or know some person close to you or a Riffian that has done it? What did they score?

[Lucas]

What do you disagree with of the things that Chad Rohflsen said on Anthrogenica? Or basically anyone that has studied Natufians for example. Admixture shows them as being 10%+ SSA, but everyone today knows they have no African, it's Basal Eurasian, and the reason there still aren't calculators that include Basal is because we still don't have their genomes, they're a ghost population.


We know also now that Ancient Egyptians had minmal SSA in comparison to modern ones. In case of Berbers their distance to Negroid population was bigger and they didn't have Nile as a route to north.



http://eurogenes.blogspot.com/2017/03/modern-day-egyptians-20-more-sub.html

ancient Egyptians basically lack SSA affinity beyond other Eurasians until Roman times.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C8RkzVoUIAA6fe5.jpg

[PunhetaDeBacalhau]

We know also now that Ancient Egyptians had minmal SSA in comparison to modern ones. In case of Berbers their distance to Negroid population was bigger and they didn't have Nile as a route to north.

Yes Ancient Egyptians seem to indeed have practically no SSA, which is interesting. But maybe they'll find a tiny bit, as there was actually a tiny period of time where contact was possible between the Middle Eastern-like peoples and SSA's. History of the Sahara:

A timeline of Sahara occupation:

22,000 to 10,500 years ago: The Sahara was devoid of any human occupation outside the Nile Valley and extended 250 miles further south than it does today.
10,500 to 9,000 years ago: Monsoon rains begin sweeping into the Sahara, transforming the region into a habitable area swiftly settled by Nile Valley dwellers.
9,000 to 7,300 years ago: Continued rains, vegetation growth, and animal migrations lead to well established human settlements, including the introduction of domesticated livestock such as sheep and goats.
7,300 to 5,500 years ago: Retreating monsoonal rains initiate desiccation in the Egyptian Sahara, prompting humans to move to remaining habitable niches in Sudanese Sahara. The end of the rains and return of desert conditions throughout the Sahara after 5,500 coincides with population return to the Nile Valley and the beginning of pharaonic society.

[Petalpusher]

What do you disagree with of the things that Chad Rohflsen said on Anthrogenica? Or basically anyone that has studied Natufians for example. Admixture shows them as being 10%+ SSA, but everyone today knows they have no African, it's Basal Eurasian, and the reason there still aren't calculators that include Basal is because we still don't have their genomes, they're a ghost population.


Where have you seen that?!

Im quoting him but i could tell you the same


Those calculator results mean nothing as they're based on modern clusters. There's no African in Natufians. Formal stats show that. You should go by those and not a calculator.

He was answering someone running Natufians (who are 12K old) with a modern based calculator, which people should understand, doesn't really work. We can anyway verify ourself, as the vast majority of Europeans, including northern Euro who score more than 30% Natufians (something basal rich in reality) don't show SSA at any K even K3. N.African don't score that much Natufians, i think many Euro score more and yet they show SSA, there s no overlap at K6 for example, the SSA doesn't decrease because of the Natufian, it stays the same.

The Basal rich of K7 was a mishmash of plenty of things, Davidski said it himself, people are scoring different things, and yes for some it was sucking some SSA and some other not. As long as we don't have a genome it's experimental.


Have you seen the next K8Q?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XswOpaOowUkH-Io2sjEN1dN9HeLFBKcKPd1K3dxIidc/edit#gid=1956803379


Usual SSA values here, even with highly basal clusters (Iran_N / Levant_N)

[PunhetaDeBacalhau]

Where have you seen that?!

Im quoting him but i could tell you the same

He was answering someone running Natufians (who are 12K old) with a modern based calculator, which people should understand, doesn't really work. We can anyway verify ourself, as the vast majority of Europeans, including northern Euro who score more than 30% Natufians (something basal rich in reality) don't show SSA at any K even K3.

I've seen that at Anthrogenica and at the comments of the Eurogenes blogs by people like Simon_W and others. Everybody says Natufians have no actual African.

He was answering that in the context of saying that not only Natufians but also North Africans are less SSA than modern calculators give them.


Have you seen the next K8Q?

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1XswOpaOowUkH-Io2sjEN1dN9HeLFBKcKPd1K3dxIidc/edit#gid=1956803379

Usual SSA values here, even with highly basal clusters (Iran_N / Levant_N)

I don't know what calculator that is, but testing Iran_N with a Iran_Neolithic component is obviously gonna make them score a lot in the Iran_Neolithic component, and even still they show 3% SSA (obviously the SSA there is modern day SSA's as usual). If you took out the Iran_Neolithic component, they would score a lot more in SSA, same thing happens with North Africans.

It also doesn't attempt to isolate the Basal Eurasian component as the Basal-rich K7 did, so it's two different calculators made for different reasons.

[Petalpusher]

I've seen that at Anthrogenica and at the comments of the Eurogenes blogs by people like Simon_W and others. Everybody says Natufians have no actual African.

He was answering that in the context of saying that not only Natufians but also North Africans are less SSA than modern calculators give them.

That's why im running them on ancient calculator, not modern and K58, it's useless and indeed give them more if we were to recover every bits from every scores (so the contrary to what people think..)

I agree they don't, i ran the genome myself in formal stats, Natufians don't have African affinity, at all. It was even surprising as they don't show a closer relationship to Africans than EHG for example (Only WHG-SHG "beat" them). Natufians are highly "Basal Eurasian" but with something else ancestral to WHG, that "basal" is more difficult to tell and a makeshift job to recreate something that looks like them as Eurogenes did with K7br, as long as we don't have a genome it's speculation. We would need to also define what is that "Basal", or what we are looking for exactly, is it really the old first split OOA, the split with ENA, something more recent etc.. There s little chance we ll recover something 50ky old in that region in good condition so we ll have to settle for something more recent in any case.





I don't know what calculator that is, but testing Iran_N with a Iran_Neolithic component is obviously gonna make them score a lot in the Iran_Neolithic component, and even still they show 3% SSA (obviously the SSA there is modern day SSA's as usual). If you took out the Iran_Neolithic component, they would score a lot more in SSA, same thing happens with North Africans.

It also doesn't attempt to isolate the Basal Eurasian component as the Basal-rich K7 did, so it's two different calculators made for different reasons.

You mean N.Africans would score even more than they already score? Moroccans and Algerians score 20-25% here, which is the normal thing. But maybe yea if we were to remove the two highly basal Iran_N and Levant_N they would show a K3 level (more 25 than 20). I don't see why Iran would score significant SSA, they don't usually, the average must be around 1%, and 2 outliers i guess with Gulf ancestry.

I m trying to be reasonnable, let's say a K3 can inflate their score a little, but it's not possible anymore at K10, K12, K15 based on ancient dna. If most W.Eurasians (they are pred W.E as well) score 0% and they score 20%, they have that 20% something, wether old or more recent it's there. No one would argue an European who has a Japanese grandparent and score 25% E.Asian, is a 25% mistaken for something else. Admixture is not 0.1% perfect but it's absolutely not mistaken of 20-25%.

[Numidia]

Interesting why Iberian in North Africans?

north africans are not iberians genetics tests companies have many samples for europeans but almost nothing for north africans
gedmatch is only a calculator it's not accurate too, from what I've seen north africans appear anormally mixed

[Lucas]

I received some North African K36 results

Kabyles

https://s4.postimg.org/uh69swbhp/kabyles.jpg

[Leto]

I received some North African K36 results

Kabyles
Could you post their kit numbers?

[Lucas]

For those I have only spreadshhet with results...

[Gallop]

And here the thread died since 2017 ohhhhh!



Why do the numbers of Gedmatch kits published everywhere usually disappear, put them on and take them off, what is the point?

[Adamm]

And here the thread died since 2017 ohhhhh!



Why do the numbers of Gedmatch kits published everywhere usually disappear, put them on and take them off, what is the point?

Privacy matters I think.

[Gallop]

I've found one out there for those worlds of God

Comparing Kit GGGGG (Gallop) [FTDNA] and Z398780 (Tarofalt2) [Migration - F2 - Z]

Segment threshold size will be adjusted dynamically between 200 and 400 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 3.0 cM
Mismatch-bunching Limit will be adjusted dynamically to 60 percent of the segment threshold size for any given segment.

No shared DNA segments found

322837 SNPs used for this comparison.

Comparison took 0.743 seconds.
CPU time used: 0.043 cpu seconds.

Ver: Jun 18 2020 02:35:33


-I have tried 0.50 and 0.25 and neither

[Sora]

I'd like to see some North African gedmatch kits with results. Can anybody send me some kits?

[Nassbean]

I've found one out there for those worlds of God

Comparing Kit GGGGG (Gallop) [FTDNA] and Z398780 (Tarofalt2) [Migration - F2 - Z]

Segment threshold size will be adjusted dynamically between 200 and 400 SNPs
Minimum segment cM to be included in total = 3.0 cM
Mismatch-bunching Limit will be adjusted dynamically to 60 percent of the segment threshold size for any given segment.

No shared DNA segments found

322837 SNPs used for this comparison.

Comparison took 0.743 seconds.
CPU time used: 0.043 cpu seconds.

Ver: Jun 18 2020 02:35:33


-I have tried 0.50 and 0.25 and neither

why do you compare yourself to iberomaurusian ?

[Nassbean]

I'd like to see some North African gedmatch kits with results. Can anybody send me some kits?

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?287692-All-my-results-(Gedmatch-Mydnaportal)

[Gallop]

why do you compare yourself to iberomaurusian ?

I compare myself with any kit that falls into my possession, it is an addiction.

[Gallop]

Privacy matters I think.


The privacy of archaeological corpses? We are talking about them every day and at all hours. I do not understand the dance of kits that are added and removed.

[Zanko]

I uploaded pure Mozabite Berber from HGDP
T691712

His result in K36

Arabian 3.00
Central_African 0.05
East_African 0.80
Iberian 8.64
Near_Eastern 4.57
North_African 64.17
Northeast_African 3.01
Omotic 0.68
Pygmy 0.35
West_African 4.67
West_Med 5.01


MDLP K23b
Population

Caucasian 1.46
European_Early_Farmers 4.84
Archaic_African 5.29
North_African 86.86
African_Pygmy 0.69
European_Hunters_Gatherers 0.80

# Population (source) Distance
1 Mozabite ( ) 12.99
2 Saharawi ( ) 33.79
3 Berber_WGA ( ) 34.97
4 Morocco_South ( ) 43.93
5 Moroccan ( ) 51.66
6 Algerian ( ) 51.77
7 Shaigi_Sudan ( ) 53.46
8 Tunisian ( ) 56.4
9 Amhara ( ) 79.51
10 Spanish_Canarias_IBS ( ) 83.33

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 100% Mozabite ( ) + 0% !Kung ( ) @ 12.99


So pure Berbers have likely 5% West African.
20-25% is just one black slave ancestor for supposed modern North African.


Hello Lucas,

I am well aware that this post is 6 years old, but I wonder if you can help me?
Could you upload a pure Mozabite Berber from HGDP to gedmatch and give me his gedmatch kit?
Or could you at least tell me how to download and upload a DNA sample from HGDP to gedmatch? I tried to upload a DNA sample of Mozabite in Mzab, Algeria (HGDP) to gedmatch, but it seemed as if the file was too large (it was about 21.1 GB) (it was in the GZIP file format b.t.w.)