Worst twentieth century Western-European leader?

[Joe McCarthy]

This can be assessed generally but it has a definite bent in terms of leaders who have furthered the multicultural morass we're in.

My nominees:

Tony Blair.

Olof Palme.

Lyndon Johnson.

Gough Whitlam.

A number of others could be mentioned.

Edit: It was suggested to me that this be changed to post-WW2 leaders so as to avoid the whole Hitler-WW2-guilt debate. I concur and we'll change it to post-WW2.

[Joe McCarthy]

Along with turning Sweden into a multicultural pesthole, Palme also gets very high (low?) marks for being an especially fanatical pro-ANC zealot. Outside of the Soviet Union he was likely South Africa's worst European enemy.

[Svipdag]

You just disqualified my candidate: King Leopold of Belgium.

[Svipdag]

Alright, then, Francisco Franco, El Caudillo de España.

[Eldritch]

Alright, then, Francisco Franco, El Caudillo de España.

Hmm, interesting choice. Why did you pick him if I may ask?

[Don]

Alright, then, Francisco Franco, El Caudillo de España.

No, not him.

Despite he was a dictator and half of Spain hate him, he really believed and loved Spain and tried to do the best for the country.

Something that modern politicians, like the infamous Zapatero, don't share. They workship the ethnocidal society, the "alianza de civilizaciones", the free invasion and the progressive destruction of the Spanish purity in the blood and in the culture.

Each time is bigger the number of spaniards that say "Ésto con Franco no pasaba", with nostalgy about these times due to our unexpected and limit lost security and decadence of our society at hands of HIGH TRAITORS.

Franco can not be in that list, not in 2011, in these dark times we are living.


Jose Luis Rodríguez Zapatero, and his infamous Alianza de Civilizaciones* has my vote.

A traitor to our blood, culture, past and future.



* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alliance_of_Civilizations

[Psychonaut]

Woodrow Wilson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodrow_wilson), hands down.

[Wyn]

Tony Blair.


Tony Blair is definitely responsible for a lot of things (some that are much worse than multiculturalism). Immigration certainly went up to a new level under the Labour administration, but Tony and his cohorts are heirs to a mindset in British politics. So-called progressive politics are a powerful force, and Tony Blair was just another henchman - his entire party, and the others, are the same.

Besides, he has much more severe things on his conscience. Or he should have, at least. I don't know if he actually has a functioning conscience.

[poiuytrewq0987]

de Klerk.

[Apocales]

Ronald Reagan

[Vasconcelos]

The overwhelming majority of Portuguese PMs after the 25 April 1974 revolution, hands down...damn idiots nearly made us a Commie satellite state and dramatically changed the country, despite the new earned freedom.

Problem is that they (and the people in general after propaganda) belived that their own freedom was more important than other's, they belived that the state should sustain the whole people, even if they were lazy bums who spent the whole year doing abolutely nothing useful. They belived that Colonies should have the right to become independent and downright ignored the white folk living on the colonies, who lost pretty much everything they had and returned as very poor...they belived that the former colonies should have the right to exploit their own resources, eventho it was effectively financed and controlled by Portuguese people/companies, so they just took it from them and gave it to the africans in charge.

I belive they are a bunch of fucking idiots and responsible for the piss poor state Portugal is nowsdays, the lazyness, disorganization and oportunism that is pervasive. Fucking commies ruined my country.



Short example:
The new government began a wave of nationalizations of banks and large businesses. Because the banks were often holding companies, the government came after a time to own almost all the country's newspapers, insurance companies, hotels, construction companies and many other kinds of businesses, so that its share of the country's gross national product amounted to 70%.
-wiki

[Svanhild]

Winston Churchill. He sought war with Germany when Germany had no interest in a war with Great Britain and he is highly responsible for the destruction of the national idea in entire Western Europe. If he could see what happens to his country right now he would regret most of his deeds. If he had any brains, at least.

Were the British war veterans fighting for something like that?

http://www.millionface.com/l/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/behead-those-insult-islam.jpg

http://www.akte-islam.de/resources/polizeiterrormuslim.jpg

On the streets of London 2010:

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Society/Pix/pictures/2008/05/13/REx3.gif

[Nodens]

Well, since we've already killed the post-WWII only rule, I'll push it further and say Wilhelm II. His demolition of Bismark's foreign policy structure and pursuit of antagonistic policies toward the Russian and British Empires set the stage for the two-front war which the Central Powers had no chance of winning.

[Joe McCarthy]

Alright, then, Francisco Franco, El Caudillo de España.

He ranks as one of the best post-WW2 leaders. Despite diplomatic isolation, he turned Spain's economy around.

I must say that I didn't expect to see Reagan and Franco on this thread.

[Grumpy Cat]

Post WWII? Pretty much all of them.

[Joe McCarthy]

Tony Blair is definitely responsible for a lot of things (some that are much worse than multiculturalism). Immigration certainly went up to a new level under the Labour administration, but Tony and his cohorts are heirs to a mindset in British politics. So-called progressive politics are a powerful force, and Tony Blair was just another henchman - his entire party, and the others, are the same.


It's true that the multicultural project began before Blair, but he took it to a radically new level with heavy increases in immigration numbers. He has other sins to his 'credit' as well, yes, and it'd be hard to name a worse British leader imho.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Winston Churchill. He sought war with Germany when Germany had no interest in a war with Great Britain and he is highly responsible for the destruction of the national idea in entire Western Europe. If he could see what happens to his country right now he would regret most of his deeds. If he had any brains, at least.

Were the British war veterans fighting for something like that?





On the streets of London 2010:


You asked for it when you invaded Poland. Quit acting like you're the victim.

[Ketsuban]

Nixon.

Thatcher.

Clinton.

Bush.

Blair.

Brown.

[Treffie]

Winston Churchill. He sought war with Germany when Germany had no interest in a war with Great Britain and he is highly responsible for the destruction of the national idea in entire Western Europe. If he could see what happens to his country right now he would regret most of his deeds. If he had any brains, at least.

Were the British war veterans fighting for something like that?

http://www.millionface.com/l/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/behead-those-insult-islam.jpg

http://www.akte-islam.de/resources/polizeiterrormuslim.jpg

On the streets of London 2010:

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Society/Pix/pictures/2008/05/13/REx3.gif

Muslims = Nazis IMO

[Don]

Muslims = Nazis IMO

Muslims = infamous & treacherous shit In Mine.

[Treffie]

Muslims = infamous & treacherous shit In Mine.

What are you talking about? :confused:

[Grumpy Cat]

Bush.


George H. W. Bush or George W. Bush?

Dubya is 21st century.

[Don]

What are you talking about? :confused:

Obviously about my opinion, of course.

[Liffrea]

“Leaders”? I’m not stupid enough to believe that a mediocre egotist like Blair led anything, he was a show man, the type of non-entity that has filled the unimportant and defunct as anything other than cheap entertainment format that politics has become. Does anyone really believe those muppets spitting at each other in Westminster run this country? Place holders, rubber stamps and faces, that’s all.

Blair was value for money entertainment; I’m only surprised Simon Cowell doesn’t run the election campaign in Britain.

[Debaser11]

I think Reagan was a bit of a fool, but he doesn't seem to be any worse than the whole lot of post-Nixon presidents our country has been stuck with. I concur with Psychonaut about Woodrow Wilson for our country. Winston Churchill (even side-stepping the "who was right and who was wrong?" moral issues dealing with WWII as was requested) was not so great, either. He enabled multi-culturalism for the U.K. more than any other leader even if he was against it. In fairness, the 20th century has probably been full of the worst leaders per capita than almost any other in recent memory. What's that say about democracy?

[Liffrea]

Originally Posted by Svanhild
Were the British war veterans fighting for something like that?

I very much doubt it, but they did fight for one thing…….the right to make a mess of our own future and not let anyone else do it.

Of course it so happens that Britain is now controlled by, what amounts to, a Franco-German alliance anyway, and our future is largely out of our hands, and people say that the universe has no sense of irony.

[Crossbow]

You asked for it when you invaded Poland. Quit acting like you're the victim.

You really think Great Britain acted out of a sense of justice for Poland, a country which didn't really interest them? LOL

[Vasconcelos]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_war_2#European_occupations_and_agreements


Yes, that Churchill was a maniac. Hail Hitlerer!

[Raikaswinþs]

Franco, probably. Not because of being a dictator, but because of being a lame dictator , whose country would still be a third world shithole if not for the technocrats that put a little common sense into the pot when he was already senile and all the internetional support he received later on when international community started to see him as a bastion against communism during the cold war. He was a lame personajillo, that truly harmed his own countryman in the name of a religion and a ideology that a huge part of Spaniards did not want to belong to anymore.

How he gave away his own citizens from West Sahara to the tirany of Hassam II was trully cobard (thankflully enough, he didn't handed Ceuta and Melilla too), and how he abandoned Guinea Ecuatorial to the Fan minority and the French economic interests was utterly retarded.
Miguel Primo de Rivera was way more classy. You don't need to subjugate, repress, imprison, enslave or just kill half of your country to make happy the other half,or to keep the peace, and if you do, then what you have is not ONE country

[Debaser11]

Muslims = Nazis IMO

No way! Nazis are way cooler than Muslims. I'd much rather live in country full of Nazis than Muslims and that third world riff raff.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_war_2#European_occupations_and_agreements


Yes, that Churchill was a maniac. Hail Hitlerer!

Care to be a bit more specific?

Incidentally, Chamberlain (largely regarded as one of the worst) gets a bad rap. Lesson learned: never give an unconditional war guarantee to a country for a war you really don't want to fight.

And really, I think the early progressives like Teddy Roosevelt at the turn of the century really did a lot of damage to the U.S. psychologically. Yes, we were always pushing westward, but he normalized overseas imperialist ventures and paved the way for people like Wilson. Not that TR belongs in the same company as Wilson, but you can see the continuum of badness leading up to today.

[Eldritch]

Well, Stalin's atrocities in the USSR and affected territories are well (enough) documented, but more relevantly to this thread, he started the program of weakening western Europe through pacifism, anti-Americanism, armchair communism etc, which after the collapse of the USSR re-invented themselves as "multiculturalism".

So the next time you meet a dreadlocked white girl wearing a Che Guevara T-shirt, or some smug champagne socialist preaching about cultural sensitivity, you know whom to blame ultimately.

[Osweo]

Well, Stalin's atrocities ,.....

So the next time you meet a dreadlocked white girl wearing a Che Guevara T-shirt, or some smug champagne socialist preaching about cultural sensitivity, you know whom to blame ultimately.

Um, yes; Lenin and Trotsky. :shrug:

Soso was far less interested in 'World Revolution'. He had to carry on with a lot of the stuff he inherited from these two, but his 'heart' wasn't really in it, except as a way to bolster the empire he was (re)building...

[Curtis24]

60 million dead... I would say that qualifies Adolf Hitler. Irregardless of the causes of WWII or the West's imperial designs, he's the man who lit the powder keg.

[poiuytrewq0987]

No one think de Klerk the man who gave SA to the hounds a terrible leader?

[Debaser11]

60 million dead... I would say that qualifies Adolf Hitler. Irregardless of the causes of WWII or the West's imperial designs, he's the man who lit the powder keg.

Curtis, don't take this the wrong way, he didn't "light the keg" anymore than Stalin (he took half of Poland as well) if September 1939 is the biased point of focus. Furthermore, all "lighting the keg" really means is crossing British and French power interests. That language just assumes those two countries' interests were more important than the preservation of Europe as a whole which a World War basically ruled out. It assumes that France and England had no choice but to declare war and Germany (as if they had no free will of their own at all). It's a bait and switch. Hitler had this free will to just attack attack attack but the French and English had no choice but to ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK. Those two decided tearing Europe up was worth denying Germany hegemony. Not Hitler's fault.

[Nodens]

Curtis, don't take this the wrong way, he didn't "light the keg" anymore than Stalin (he took half of Poland as well) if September 1939 is the biased point of focus. Furthermore, all "lighting the keg" really means is crossing British and French power interests. That language just assumes those two countries' interests were more important than the preservation of Europe as a whole which a World War basically ruled out. It assumes that France and England had no choice but to declare war and Germany (as if they had no free will of their own at all). It's a bait and switch. Hitler had this free will to just attack attack attack but the French and English had no choice but to ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK. Those two decided tearing Europe up was worth denying Germany hegemony. Not Hitler's fault.

In the interests of full disclosure, Hitler had agreed to end his expansionism after the Sudetenland, while Stalin had no comparable treaty obligations.

[poiuytrewq0987]

Curtis, don't take this the wrong way, he didn't "light the keg" anymore than Stalin (he took half of Poland as well) if September 1939 is the biased point of focus. Furthermore, all "lighting the keg" really means is crossing British and French power interests. That language just assumes those two countries' interests were more important than the preservation of Europe as a whole which a World War basically ruled out. It assumes that France and England had no choice but to declare war and Germany (as if they had no free will of their own at all). It's a bait and switch. Hitler had this free will to just attack attack attack but the French and English had no choice but to ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK ATTACK. Those two decided tearing Europe up was worth denying Germany hegemony. Not Hitler's fault.

What? Hitler should've stopped after taking Sudentenland from Czechoslovakia but no, being a megalomanic like he is... he declared war on Poland despite France and Britain guaranteeing her sovereignty.

[Debaser11]

I never said he was in the right to invade Poland. I still stand by everything I wrote. England/France turned a Polish/German war into a European one. Not Hitler's fault.

[Curtis24]

Ok, fine. Let's say Hitler didn't start WWII.

He still is worst leader because of the Holocaust.

[Debaser11]

What? Hitler should've stopped after taking Sudentenland from Czechoslovakia but no, being a megalomanic like he is... he declared war on Poland despite France and Britain guaranteeing her sovereignty.

So? Guaranteeing Poland's sovereignty cost Europe by turning a Polish/German conflict into a full on European civil war. The U.S. guarantees a lot of countries their sovereignty. Yet you don't seem to like that so much, do you? You'd rather them keep their noses out of something that doesn't concern them. Yet, you give France/Britain a free pass.

[Debaser11]

Ok, fine. Let's say Hitler didn't start WWII.

He still is worst leader because of the Holocaust.

Are you kidding me? There are whole forums that touch on this subject. Let's just say I have my doubts about this claim. I'd love if you'd go to the other forum and indulge me, though.

[Curtis24]

How bout, I just give up :p

[poiuytrewq0987]

Who gives a rat's ass about Hitler...! 1945 is ages ago compared to 1994.

http://news.mst.edu/de%20Klerk%20photo.JPG

[Debaser11]

^Uh, I was at least partly responding to the nonsensical drivel that so characterizes a typical post from you. You can't make stupid claims and then expect not to get called out on them.

[poiuytrewq0987]

^Uh, I was only responding to the nonsensical drivel that so characterizes a typical post from you.

Yeah, blab more about Hitler. Like we care about the old fart who's been dead for more than sixty years (who also probably died a virgin).

[Debaser11]

More people care about him than you.

[poiuytrewq0987]

More people care about him than you.

If I killed a bunch of Debasers out there in the real world... the people would probably care about me more than him. After all your kind are uneducated, boring and stupid.

[Debaser11]

Who did Hitler kill?

[poiuytrewq0987]

Who did Hitler kill?

He forgot to get your parents.

[Debaser11]

You can't answer the question because you're Libre.

[poiuytrewq0987]

You can't answer the question because you're Libre.

Which is far better than be you.

[Debaser11]

^Yeah, there's disinterested viewpoint.

[poiuytrewq0987]

^Yeah, there's disinterested viewpoint.

Yeah, whatever, Mister Hitler lover.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Olof Palme.



98,5% of Swedes will disagree here.

He was a brave politician who opposed USA's war in Vietnam and South Africas Apartheid system.

Palme was not responsible for turning Sweden into a multicultural hell.
All that reckless non needed non working immigration happened after Palme.

He was the No. 2 fatherfigure of Sweden after another Socialdemocrat, Tage Erlander. These two led Sweden into becoming a prosperous and well armed nation.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

I must say that I didn't expect to see Reagan and Franco on this thread.

I can say that I'm surprised not to see Mussolini and Hitler?


Of the modern one's; Berlusconi the clown.

[Debaser11]

Opposing South Africa's Apartheid system is not exactly a feather in one's cap.

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Bush or George W. Bush?



Yes, the Chimp-Man. Who lied his nation full...

[Motörhead Remember Me]

Opposing South Africa's Apartheid system is not exactly a feather in one's cap.

We are not wearing the same cap...

[Debaser11]

Clearly.

[Sahson]

Robert Mugabe

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/Mugabecloseup2008.jpg/800px-Mugabecloseup2008.jpg

[poiuytrewq0987]

Robert Mugabe

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/83/Mugabecloseup2008.jpg/800px-Mugabecloseup2008.jpg

But you got to admit that he's got some pretty interesting looking eyes!

[Eldritch]

Um, yes; Lenin and Trotsky. :shrug:

Soso was far less interested in 'World Revolution'. He had to carry on with a lot of the stuff he inherited from these two, but his 'heart' wasn't really in it, except as a way to bolster the empire he was (re)building...

Well, as far as I know the consensus among historians is thatthose two at least partly believed their own lies.

However after WW2, with the Cold War underway, before Stalin's death, that's when machinating the "peace movement" etc. in the West really got underway.


If I killed a bunch of Debasers out there in the real world... the people would probably care about me more than him. After all your kind are uneducated, boring and stupid.

As a moderator I'm not supposed to take sides in an argument, but I'll make an exception here: Debaser is clearly not uneducated nor stupid. Reading 3-5 of his posts on average would be enough to convince another non-uneducated, non-stupid person of that.

Do you think that calling people names is going to bring people around to your side of the argument?

And speculating about killing people on the forum, even if anyone can see you're not being serious, is a big no-no.

[Troll's Puzzle]

sticking to the topic of 'post WWII werstern leaders only' ;), I also have to defend Franco here.

Not because I'm a fan (I'm not), but given that (a) he didn't screw up his country irreversbly and (ii) he didn't screw up other people's countries, that alone is enough to put him ahead of just about every US prez and UK prem for starters.

[Joe McCarthy]

98,5% of Swedes will disagree here.

He was a brave politician who opposed USA's war in Vietnam and South Africas Apartheid system.

Palme was not responsible for turning Sweden into a multicultural hell.
All that reckless non needed non working immigration happened after Palme.

He was the No. 2 fatherfigure of Sweden after another Socialdemocrat, Tage Erlander. These two led Sweden into becoming a prosperous and well armed nation.

It was under Palme that Sweden became officially multicultural in 1974. His reliance on the anti-racist theories of Gunnar Myrdal paved the way for Sweden's present catastrophe.

Moreover, mentioning his view on apartheid and Vietnam hardly helps his case! Indeed, his leftist policies were notorious:


harsh and emotional criticism of the United States over the Vietnam War;
campaigning against nuclear weapons proliferation;
criticism of the Franco Regime in Spain, once calling Franco a "satanic murderer";
opposition to apartheid and support for economic sanctions against South Africa;
support – both political and financial – for the African National Congress (ANC) and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO);
meeting with Cuba's president Fidel Castro;
strong criticism of the Pinochet Regime; and,
support – both political and financial – for the FMLN-FDR in El Salvador and the Nicaragua under FSLN.



In 1972, Prime Minister Olof Palme compared the Hanoi bombings to the Holocaust, having marched side by side with North Vietnam’s ambassador to Moscow through the streets of Stockholm a few years back.

Ugh.

98.5% of Swedes might agree that such things are desirable, but then Sweden is the most politically inept nation in Europe when it comes to issues relating to race, culture, and conservative policy generally.

[Atlas]

Jacques Chirac take the asshole cake.

[Sahson]

Jacques Chirac take the asshole cake.

I agree he really fucked us over.

[safinator]

Enver Hoxha