What haplogroup did Abraham belong to?

[Voskos]

Any ideas?

[Porn Master]

J2.
He was Chaldean from Mesopotamia

[Voskos]

J2.
He was Chaldean from Mesopotamia

maybe,though arabs are supposed tio be descended from him and they're mostly J1 .

[Porn Master]

maybe,though arabs are supposed tio be descended from him and they're mostly J1 .



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/J2-Distribution.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/J-Y-DNA-Distribution.jpg

[Rethel]

J1. Period.
Rest is simply gibberish.

[Grab the Gauge]

R1niggaB.

http://thegeneticgenealogist.com/2007/11/01/dna-analysis-of-5-people-who-helped-create-america/

R1niggas B rollin'

[lyakh]

I suppose that Abraham might be E-CTS1273 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-CTS1273/). It has TMRCA about 4000 ybp and is widely distributed. It exapnded violently. It is present not only in Old Continent, but also in Near East (although it is not as frequent here as in for example Albania). Current distribution of it might be a proof of scattering of Israelites (who are descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob). I believe that the world is about 6000 years old.

Another candidates for Abraham's haplogroup can be found in haplogroup J1. Some candidates could be: J-Y3081 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y3081/), J-FGC11 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC11/) and J-Y6074 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y6074/)

[Porn Master]

I suppose that Abraham might be E-CTS1273.



E wasn't in Middle east, only J

[lyakh]

But E-CTS12273 expanded violently about 4000 years before present. On YFull trees of J1 and J2 I did not found any subclade expanding as suddenly about 4000 ybp as E-CTS1273. But I believe in the existence of Abraham even when he was not of haplogroups E-CTS1273 or J1 or J2.

[Rethel]

But E-CTS12273

If you want to talk about biblical Abraham, not imaginery one,
then he cannot be E, as his relation with this people broke off
on the most basic level of affinity, even maybe pre-E.

[Kelmendasi]

I suppose that Abraham might be E-CTS1273 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-CTS1273/). It has TMRCA about 4000 ybp and is widely distributed. It exapnded violently. It is present not only in Old Continent, but also in Near East (although it is not as frequent here as in for example Albania). Current distribution of it might be a proof of scattering of Israelites (who are descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob). I believe that the world is about 6000 years old.

Another candidates for Abraham's haplogroup can be found in haplogroup J1. Some candidates could be: J-Y3081 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y3081/), J-FGC11 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-FGC11/) and J-Y6074 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y6074/)
If Abraham was E1b1b t would be E-M123 not E-V13/E-CTS1273. Abraham was probably J1(if he was a real person)

[lyakh]

E-CTS1273*(?) was found in Jordan (id:YF10527).

E-S7461 (a subclade of E-CTS1273) was found in Saudi Arabia and Lebanon (that subclade has also two mutation downstream of S7461: A8612/BY5022 and Y19357/FGC44188/BY5023).

[Hamlet]

Probably J2 if he existed

[Hamlet]

I just thought of something when thinking about David's Y DNA - the Messiah was prophesised to come from the House of David, but how can that be the case if Jesus's dad was God (or at the very least, his mum was a virgin)?

[Rethel]

I just thought of something when thinking about David's Y DNA - the Messiah was prophesised to come from the House of David, but how can that be the case if Jesus's dad was God (or at the very least, his mum was a virgin)?

Jesus could have David's Y, as he was phisically created in the womb.
Personally I am even arguing of Mary's gamet was a base for him, but
could be. Then the Y part and his very existance was added to it by
HG - and it could be Joseph's, David's, Abraham's or just Adam's Y. Or
totaly new. doesn;t really matter what code would FTDNA reveald. One
is certain - there is no other possibility than code of the presented parts
of the line or the totaly new one. It certainly couldn't be hamitic, aryan,
oldeuropean, chinese or whatever. Either Adam-Joseph either new one.

[Rethel]

Probably J2 if he existed

I would agree with you, that it could be, if there would not be proof, that Israelites were J1.
Befor that, only G, J and maybe T was on the board, with the strongest J anyway, as this is
main and actualy the ture Semitic general hg - especially J1.


E-CTS1273*(?) was found in Jordan (id:YF10527).

E-S7461 (a subclade of E-CTS1273) was found in Saudi Arabia and Lebanon (that subclade has also two mutation downstream of S7461: A8612/BY5022 and Y19357/FGC44188/BY5023).

And what? :picard1:

[lyakh]

I suppose that CTS1273* lineage may be a remnant of Abraham's descendants who lived in the territory of Jordan in ancient times. E-V13 and its descendant E-CTS1273 are found mostly in the Old Continent, but few lineages of CTS1273 were found in Near East. Why they are present there?

[Rethel]

I suppose that CTS1273* lineage may be a remnant of Abraham's descendants who lived in the territory of Jordan in ancient times. E-V13 and its descendant E-CTS1273 are found mostly in the Old Continent, but few lineages of CTS1273 were found in Near East. Why they are present there?

You suppose about some imaginery Abraham.
I allready explained why the biblical Abraham cannot be E at all.
We are not talking here about your imaginery Abramek, but about the biblical.

[lyakh]

So why E-CTS1273 (which is the main subclade of E-V13) lineages are present in Jordan (id:YF10527), Saudi Arabia (id:YF11029), Lebanon (id:YF08632, id:YF08636) and United Arab Emirates (id:YF09171, id:YF08217)? Lineage found in Jordan is especially interesting, because it diverges from others very early, is CTS1273*.

[Hamlet]

Abraham was Y DNA I1, like me

[Kelmendasi]

E-CTS1273*(?) was found in Jordan (id:YF10527).

E-S7461 (a subclade of E-CTS1273) was found in Saudi Arabia and Lebanon (that subclade has also two mutation downstream of S7461: A8612/BY5022 and Y19357/FGC44188/BY5023).
As I said before, if he was E1b1b it would be E-M123 and not V13 which has an origin within Europe

[Wrong]

J2.
He was Chaldean from Mesopotamia

[Rethel]

So why E-CTS1273

Becasue such people lived there?????
What it has to do with Abraham? First
read the story, understand it, and then
say something about his hg. :bored:

[Kelmendasi]

I suppose that CTS1273* lineage may be a remnant of Abraham's descendants who lived in the territory of Jordan in ancient times. E-V13 and its descendant E-CTS1273 are found mostly in the Old Continent, but few lineages of CTS1273 were found in Near East. Why they are present there?
Back migration from the Balkans could be a reason why it's present in the near east. E-V13 originates in the Balkans as suggested by diversity and aDNA

[lyakh]

Why E-V13 (more precisely CTS1273) expanded suddenly about 4000 years before present? In which culture might happen the expansion of E-V13?

What about lost ten tribes of Israel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Lost_Tribes)?

[Hamlet]

Jesus Christ wth is this thread!!!

He didn't exist, but even if he did, how would you possibly know for sure?! It's all guesses - and the Middle East is too mixed in Y DNA for any guess to be accurate!

[Rethel]

Why E-V13 (more precisely CTS1273) expanded suddenly about 4000 years before present?

Because earlier didn't exist.



What about lost ten tribes of Israel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Lost_Tribes)?

Partialy remained the part of diaspora, some returned to the
Judea and Galilea - but mainly assimilated into ME people.

[Kelmendasi]

Why E-V13 (more precisely CTS1273) expanded suddenly about 4000 years before present? In which culture might happen the expansion of E-V13?

What about lost ten tribes of Israel (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Lost_Tribes)?
E-V13 originated among the late Neolithic cultures from the Balkans or southern Europe as suggested by it's father clade E-L618 having been found in Neolithic Croatia and V13 being found in Neolithic Spain although it has the highest diversity in the Balkans, it's possibly linked to the Cardium pottery culture. The Israelites were J1, J2, E-M123 etc not V13, they will release aDNA from Bronze Age Israel soon which will give us better insights to their haplogroups

[Rethel]

He didn't exist, but even if he did, how would you possibly know for sure?! It's all guesses - and the Middle East is too mixed in Y DNA for any guess to be accurate!

:picard2:

If you would even basic education, you would know, that his
provenance is described in every needed detail. There is no
too much space for guessing. Only ignorants do that.

[Rethel]

Hamlet,
don;t be butthurted.
If you pretend to be a Jew, at least learn the story... :picard2:

[lyakh]

E-V13 originated among the late Neolithic cultures from the Balkans or southern Europe as suggested by it's father clade E-L618 having been found in Neolithic Croatia and V13 being found in Neolithic Spain although it has the highest diversity in the Balkans, it's possibly linked to the Cardium pottery culture. The Israelites were J1, J2, E-M123 etc not V13, they will release aDNA from Bronze Age Israel soon which will give us better insights to their haplogroups
Is the sample from Spain confirmed as having V13 mutation?

It is interesting what will be aDNA from ancient Israel. When the data will be released?

[Teucer]

Nothing because he probably didn't exist.

[Rethel]

Nothing because he probably didn't exist.

Even fictional characters can have determined hg.

For example, there is a fictional character from literature, let's say fictional
Arnold Copernikus living in the year 2523 from the yet fictional novel: "Trek
to the Andromeda", who is described as descendant of Nicolaus Copernicus.
Then his hg will be certainly R1b, as the needed requirements are describing,
what hg the guy should be. So even if you consider Abram the Abraham to
be a fictional, then you certainly can say what hg supposedly he can be.

And certainly he cannot be E, the same as can't be M or H, or R1.

But he obviously existed, he was a progenitor of the Israelites,
Edomites, Midianites, Nabateans and many others, and he was J1.

[Teucer]

Even fictional characters can have determined hg.

For example, there is a fictional character from literature, let's say fictional
Arnold Copernikus living in the year 2523 from the yet fictional novel: "Trek
to the Andromeda", who is described as descendant of Nicolaus Copernicus.
Then his hg will be certainly R1b, as the needed requirements are describing,
what hg the guy should be. So even if you consider Abram the Abraham to
be a fictional, then you certainly can say what hg supposedly he can be.

And certainly he cannot be E, the same as can't be M or H, or R1.

But he obviously existed, he was a progenitor of the Israelites,
Edomites, Midianites, Nabateans and many others, and he was J1.

If we want to infer then he was probably some variety of J.

Why, just because they say that he was?

[Sacrificed Ram]

The most incredible thing about Abraham isn't his haplogroup, but the fact he was chaldean much before the existence of Chaldea (Chronological errors in Bible).

[Rethel]

Why, just because they say that he was?

Just becasue the historical source says, he was.
The same as about Charlemagne, Alexander the Great, Nabuchodonozor aso...

[Kelmendasi]

Is the sample from Spain confirmed as having V13 mutation?

It is interesting what will be aDNA from ancient Israel. When the data will be released?
Yes it is confirmed V13. The data will be released either this year or early next year

[Rethel]

The most incredible thing about Abraham isn't his haplogroup, but the fact he was chaldean much before the existence of Chaldea (Chronological errors in Bible).

Noone never said, he was Chaldean.
You are arguing with your own imaginations.
But Chaldeans obviously existed at that time
and if they have something to do with the
Arpachshad, then he was. But the text does
not say it, neither claims. Being from the city
Ur Kaśdim, doesn;t mean being a Chaldean.

[Hanuman]

J1

[Teucer]

Just becasue the historical source says, he was.
The same as about Charlemagne, Alexander the Great, Nabuchodonozor aso...

Are you claiming Biblical texts who have it in their interest to present Abraham as a real person to justify their religion as a credible historical source akin to Arian and Plutarch?

[Sacrificed Ram]

Noone never said, he was Chaldean.
You are arguing with your own imaginations.
But Chaldeans obviously existed at that time
and if they have something to do with the
Arpachshad, then he was. But the text does
not say it, neither claims. Being from the city
Ur Kaśdim, doesn;t mean being a Chaldean.

Christian Bibles translated Kaśdim as Chaldea til 1950... How will we trust in these translators...

[Rethel]

akin to Arian and Plutarch?

Do you even know, what fables they were spreading and believing?

No? so stop talking about things, you do not know.

Bible is allready proven prophetically and historically accurate.
Even your historians, who belive in all the nonsensical stuff as you, belive that Abraham existed.

So, what is your point?
Are you on your own a historical genius, that you know, what is truth and
what is not, or you just blindly belive some guy, and distrust other historians?

[Dibran]

He was most probably J1. J2 would be the 2nd, and E1b the third possibility. Definitely not I1 or any other fantasy people concoct. In some texts(despite misleading translations) it refers(in the Quran for instance) to Jacob and his sons, including Joseph, as BADOU, BEDOU or bedouins. Bedoiuns have Jews, Muslims and Christians. The dominating haplogroups among Bedouins is J1 and J2. I think J2 moreso for the Jews, and J1 more for the Arabs. For example, J2 cultures were associated with Bull Worship. The golden calf being the centerpiece of some of the bani israel with Moses. J2(maybe not all) J1, and E1b are all intertwined with the tribes of bani israel and the arabs. These dominant haplos are probably in part resulted of the scattered bani israel. Though I am personally of the theory Abraham was E1b, the arabs chiefly J1 and bani israel chiefly J2, cousins from a common J ancestor.

There were some theories claiming illyrians practiced circumcision(I swear I forget where I read this so take with a grain of salt), but considering proto-illyrians are J2, if the theory of the custom holds weight, it could explain a partial connection to splintered bani israel that became indo europeanized on their exile.

[Teucer]

Do you even know, what fables they were spreading and believing?

No? so stop talking about things, you do not know.

Bible is allready proven prophetically and historically accurate.
Even your historians, who belive in all the nonsensical stuff as you, belive that Abraham existed.

So, what is your point?
Are you on your own a historical genius, that you know, what is truth and
what is not, or you just blindly belive some guy, and distrust other historians?

First of all, the same charge you make against me I can make against you. You weren't there either, you just believe it because you want to.

Second, whatever 'prophecies' you think the Bible had revealed to later come true is entirely subjective. You can extrapolate whatever you want from the these 'prophecies'. They are open to interpretation because of how esoterically they are written. Using 'prophecies' as justification for the validity of the Bible doesn't even warrant consideration.

Third, how is the Bible historically accurate? Because it tells you about cities that still exist? Marvel comics are based in New York City. Does that make Spiderman true too?

Lastly, I believe what historians say over your 'holy' book because unlike it they CAN find evidence for what they say.

Which historians corroborate the existence of Abraham, Isaac or Jacob?

[lyakh]

I would not exclude the possibility that biblical Abraham has in fact haplogroup E-V13, although it appears that the expansion of V13 occurred in Europe. Why subbranch of CTS1273 - E-S7461 with mutations Y19357 and A8612 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y19357/) was found in Saudi Arabia and Lebanon? E-S7461* (https://yfull.com/tree/E-S7461/) was found in Switzerland.

About half of J1 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J1/) specimens in YFull belong to the branch Y5322 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y5322/), which has estimated TMRCA of 2200 ybp. Vast majority of Y5322 appears to be from Arab countries. So Y5322 is not so good candidate for being the haplogroup of Abraham.

[SkyBurn]

Probably the same haplogroup as Bilbo Baggins, Khal Drogo and Emperor Palpatine.

[Kelmendasi]

I would not exclude the possibility that biblical Abraham has in fact haplogroup E-V13, although it appears that the expansion of V13 occurred in Europe. Why subbranch of CTS1273 - E-S7461 with mutations Y19357 and A8612 (https://yfull.com/tree/E-Y19357/) was found in Saudi Arabia and Lebanon? E-S7461* (https://yfull.com/tree/E-S7461/) was found in Switzerland.

About half of J1 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J1/) specimens in YFull belong to the branch Y5322 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y5322/), which has estimated TMRCA of 2200 ybp. Vast majority of Y5322 appears to be from Arab countries. So Y5322 is not so good candidate for being the haplogroup of Abraham.
V13 has no link with the groups from the Middle East apart from some due to migration from Europe, the dominant E1b1b there is M123 so its more logical for him to have been M123. J1-Z2313 has an expansion of 5500 ybp and among Semitic and proto-Semitic groups

[lyakh]

Is it possible that Abraham had haplogroup J-Y3088 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y3088/), although its TMRCA is estimated by YFull as 2900 ybp? In YFull there are two samples of J-Y3088* and three additional sublineages: FGC17491, ZS2458 and Y5400.

My another propositions are J-Z2313 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z2313/) (I do not believe in TMRCA of 5800 ybp) and J-Z1884 (https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Z1884/) (I do not believe in TMRCA of 4600 ybp).

Here (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/33619-Age-and-TMRCA-of-Jewish-lineages-by-haplogroup?p=502216&viewfull=1#post502216) J1-ZS227 (aka Y3081) is mentioned as a Jewish clade. J1-Z18271 is named as "Y-Chromosomal Aaron". It's formation time is listed as 2750 or 2625 years (if it is in fact Aaron's lineage it would be some centuries older). Z18271 is a SNP on the same level as Y3088 (there are also 15 other SNPs on that level). So it appears that Y3088 may be the haplogroup of Abraham... id:ERS256773 from Italy (Cagliari), id:HG01571 from Peru, id:YF11139 from Portugal (Viseu), id:YF01553 and id:ERR1395620 from Iraq may be remnants of (lost) tribes of Israel.

[lyakh]

From J1 clades clade YSC234 (Z2329) appears to be the best candidate for Abraham haplogroup. On that page: http://genogenea.com/J-M267/tree we have very large tree of haplogroup J-M267. One of descendants of YSC234 are L858 (whose descendant is FGC11) and ZS241. There are 12 SNPs at ZS241 level (a sublineage of YSC234), 19 at ZS222 level and 8 at Z18271 level. I think that Z18271 may be much older than 2623 ybp (age mentioned in Genogenea tree). I suppose that it has about 3800 ybp and its expansion is associated with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (Israel).

One of Z18271 holders (1kGP#HG01571, http://www.ytree.net/SNPinfoForPerson.php?personID=1945) has 36 SNPs below Z18271 node. He has ZS237 mutation (and Z18291). 34(!) SNPs appear to be private so far (2 from them are unstable and 8 have low quality). Second sublineage of ZS237 has much less SNPs (18 (FTDNA #N65836) and 17 (FTDNA #N24493) below ZS237 node), both of its members are from Italy (Calabria: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/calabria_dna/default.aspx?section=yresults). I still think that the formation time of ZS237 subclade may be about 3600 ybp (not 2367, as the information on the Genogenea's tree suggests). It may be the haplogroup of one of early Jacob's descendants (maybe a grandson).

S12192 is quite large sublineage of Z18271 with 13 SNPs at S12192 level. FTDNA #70628 has 9 SNPs below S12192 level, FTDNA #207808 - 6, FTDNA #448485 - 9 (these three people share 4 SNPs: ZS2375, ZS2376, ZS2378 and ZS2374). FTDNA #267446 does not share these 4 SNPs and has 9 SNPs below S12192 level. Another sublineage of S12192 has 4 shared SNPs: BY68, Z18280, Z18281, Z18282. FTDNA #N62223 has 6 SNPs below BY68 level. FGC9941, Z18283 are SNPs from another sublineage of BY68. FTDNA #347278 has 6 SNPs below FGC9941 level, FTDNA#401989 has 3, FTDNA #384654 - 10, FTDNA #387145 - 12(!), FTDNA #48939 - 3, FTDNA #121244 - 3, FTDNA #271580 - 7.

FTDNA#65859 has 15 SNPs below Z18271 level, FTDNA #285280 has 14. Both share 7 SNPs: Z18290, BY67, ZS2387, Z18286-Z18289 (from Z18286 to Z18289 - Z18286, Z18287, Z18288, Z18289). FTDNA #221995 also shares these 7 SNPs and has 6 additional ones. FTDNA #161627 forms a distinct sublineage of Z18271 and has 19 SNPs below Z18271 level. Fifth sublineage of Z18271 is ZS2434, FTDNA #52384 and PF2015#806 belongs to it. First has 23 SNPs below Z18271 level, second - also 23 SNPs.

Number of SNPs below Z18271 level varies quite a lot, from 13 for FTDNA #221995 to 36 for 1kGP#HG01571.

I suppose that Z18271 is the lineage of Jacob, Z222 - the lineage of Isaac and ZS241 is a lineage of Abraham (while I suppose that FGC4745 and L858 are also descendants of Abraham). From FGC4745 lineage FTDNA #305937 has 39 SNPs below FGC4745 level, FTDNA #M10564 has 40 and FTDNA #M9223 has 68. Both FTDNA #M10564 and FTDNA #M9223 share 8 SNPs from ZS10110 to ZS10117, but one of them has 0(!) SNPs below ZS10110 while another has 28(!). I think that is the proof of the possibility that in one generation very much SNP mutation can occur.

FTDNA #N112500 is ZS222+ Z18271- and has 25 SNPs below ZS222 level. I suppose that he may be a descendant of Esau.

FTDNA #282721 is ZS241+ ZS222- and has 32 SNPs below ZS241 level, its "sibling" is FTDNA #154921 who has 35 SNPs below ZS241 level. I suppose that they may be descendants of Abraham and Keturah.

Here is FTDNA page with haplotypes of ZS241+ individuals: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/J-ZS241/default.aspx?section=yresults. It can be noticed that there are relatively large number of participants with S12192 mutation.

L858 and FGC4745 may be both descendants of Ishmael.

On that page: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Qurayishj1c3d/default.aspx?section=yresults FGC8712+, ZS2102+ lineage is named "Isaac lineage", but it looks unlikely that it is in fact the lineage of Isaac. STR distances between ZS2102+ members are small (about 6 - 7 mutations at 67 SNPs comparison). FTDNA #155666 has only 3 SNPs below ZS2102 level and FTDNA #75516 has 12 SNPs below ZS2102 level. At ZS2102 level there are 22 SNPs. FGC8712 is a downstream of FGC11 (and FGC12 and FGC1723).

[lyakh]

TMRCA of YSC234 (Z2329) (ancestor of ZS241) is estimated on Genogenea tree as 5796 ybp (I do not believe in such dating). TMRCA of ZS241 is estimated as 4878 ybp (I also do not believe in it). There are 12 SNPs at ZS241 level. TMRCA of ZS222 is estimated as 3543 ybp, i think that it is slightly older. There are 19 SNPs at ZS222 level (two of which have no coverage and three have poor coverage). There are 8 SNPs at Z18271 level (five of which have poor coverage). TMRCA of Z18271 is estimated as 2623 ybp. There are 39 SNPs between the expansion of Z18271 and YSC234.

Z18271 expands quite suddenly! On Genogenea tree there are 5 branches of Z18271. S12192 is the most common one, although it has a bottleneck of 13 SNPs at S12192 level. There are 3 sublineages of S12192: BY68 (the largest one), ZS2375 and ZS4097 (one example). TMRCA of S12192 is estimated as 1258 ybp, but I think that it should be about two times older if Z18271 is the Jacob's haplogroup. FTDNA#387145 has 18 SNPs below S12192 level. FTDNA#384654 has 16 SNPs below S12192 level. It suggests that the age of S12192 may be much older than it seems from arithmetical means of numbers of SNPs in individual branches. FTDNA#401989 has only 9 SNPs below S12192 level, FTDNA#347278 - 12, FTDNA#48939 - 9, FTDNA#121244 - 10, FTDNA#271580 - 13. FTDNA#N62223 has 10 SNPs below S12192 level. It is interesting why the bottleneck associated with S12192 lineage did occur. There are 12 S12192 FTDNA samples and 9 Z18271+ S12192- FTDNA samples on Genogenea's tree. Three members of Z18290 subclade have relatively low number of SNPs below Z18271 (FTDNA#221995 has 13 SNPs below Z18271, FTDNA#65859 - 15 and FTDNA#285280 - 14).

FTDNA#N112500, who is ZS222+ Z18271-, has 25 SNPs below ZS222 level. He has 31 SNPs between the divergence from Z18271 lineage (to which he does not belong) and YSC234 level. FTDNA#282721 is ZS241+ ZS222- and has 32 SNPs below ZS241 level. FTDNA#154921 is also ZS241+ ZS222- and has 34 SNPs below ZS241 level. FTDNA#221995 has 40 SNPs below ZS241 level (19 on ZS222 level, 8 on Z18271 and 13 below Z18271 level) and 52 SNPs below YSC234, which is ancestor of Z241. 1kGP#HG01571 has 36 SNPs below Z18271 level and 39 SNPs between YSC234 level and divergence from other Z18271 lineages.

It seems from the number of SNPs that Z18271 expanded about 2500 - 3000 ybp, but if it is the lineage of Jacob, it would expand about 3700 - 3800 ybp. Maybe S12192 is the Aaron's lineage (although it appears very unlikely from the SNP data)?

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y3081/ - this lineage in YFull appears to be the counterpart of ZS241 from Genogenea's tree. There
are 13 SNPs at Y3081 level, 6 SNPs at S20075 level and 16 SNPs at Y3088 level. There are 35 SNPs between divergence of Y3081 from Z2313 lineage and expansion of Y3088. TMRCA of Z2313 is estimated by YFull as 5800 ybp (I do not believe in it). TMRCA of Y3088 is estimated as 2900 ybp (if it is the lineage of Israel, it has to be nearly 1000 years older).

[lyakh]

The Bible says that there were only 14 generations from Abraham (who lived about 4000 ybp) to David (who lived about 3000 ybp): http://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=47 So it makes the possibility of Z18271 being Jacob's (or maybe even Abraham's) haplogroup more probable. Z18271 exapnds quite suddenly and rapidly (about 2623 ybp according to Genogenea's tree, about 2900 ybp according to YFull or about 3800 ybp if it is the haplogroup of Jacob). The Book of Numbers says that there were more than 600 000 Israelites during the Exodus time (so well before 3000 ybp) (http://www.catholic.org/bible/book.php?id=4).

id:HG01571 from YFull tree and 1kGP#HG01571 from Genogenea's tree are the same person - http://www.ytree.net/SNPinfoForPerson.php?personID=1945.

[kingjohn]

don't listen to rethel he was E from the seed of ham :)

[Rethel]

:picard1:

[kingjohn]

:picard1:

:p

[lyakh]

In info in YFull tree there was a suggestion that age of Y3088 is 2948 ybp. YF01470 has 21 SNPs below Y3088 level, YF01883 - also 21 SNPs, YF03255 - 22 SNPs, YF05308 - 26 SNPs, YF07855 - 25 SNPs, YF07862 - 21 SNPs, YF08412 - 16 SNPs, YF10053 - 20 SNPs, ERR1395620 - 26 SNPs, YF01553 - 12 SNPs, YF11139 - 7 SNPs. Ages by single lines only for Y3088 vary from 1145 years for YF11139 to 4018 years for YF07855 (which could suggest that it could be even older than biblical Jacob; I suppose that Y3088 is the lineage of Jacob or maybe even Abraham). Corrected numbers of SNPs vary from 7.51 for YF11139 to 27.41 for YF07855. Formula used to estimate age of haplogroups in YFull info page is ((corrected number of SNPs)*144,41)+60 (years). And YFull estimated ages of haplogroups may be 20-25% lower than factual ages of them... So it seems that Israel's haplogroup can be Y3088 (aka Z18271?).

One of branches of supposed Jacob's haplogroup probably expanded about 1500 - 2000 ybp (or maybe earlier, because Y3088 itself can be significantly older than YFull suggests), it is Y5400 from YFull tree. There are 12 SNPs at Y5400 level. There are two branches of Y5400 on YFull tree: Y31161 (with 3 SNPs at that level) and Y5399 (with 8 SNPs at that level). Y13968 is a branch of Y5399. There are two members of Y31161 clade and six members of Y5399 clade (two of them belong to Y13968 clade). There are also two Y3088* samples, two FGC17491 samples and one ZS2458 sample. 8 of 13 Y3088 samples from YFull tree belong to probably relatively young subclade Y5400.

I do not think that Y3088/Z18271 was Aaron's haplogroup, but I think that it is a serious candidate for being the haplogroup of Jacob.

FTDNA#221995 has surname Cohen despite being not S12192. He belongs to Z18290 branch (from Genogenea's tree).

[Grab the Gauge]

Abraham belonged to Haplogroup A00 and resembled this portrait:


https://i.pinimg.com/736x/ec/bc/61/ecbc61293294af78d490c9b5a3634417--homo-floresiensis-homo-heidelbergensis.jpg


His son Ishmael:



https://i.pinimg.com/736x/b4/11/f0/b411f078cd0c71ec2e560dabc2547674--weird-people-weird-things.jpg

[lyakh]

There is another serious candidate for being Abraham's haplogroup - J1-FGC8712 aka J1-Y6074.

YFull estimates the age of that branch as 3100 ybp on the tree, but in info page about Y6074 the age is estimated as 3753 ybp, which is really close to the time of Abraham. Genogenea's tree estimates the age of FGC8712 as 4067 ybp or 3376 ybp. There are three branches of FGC8712: L859 (most of which members (according to the page https://www.familytreedna.com/public/j1el147/default.aspx?section=yresults) have mutation FGC10500, which appears to be about 1240 years old (according to Genogenea's tree)), L615 (rather small branch, found in United Arab Emirates) and Jewish ZS2102.

ZS2102 appears to be significantly bottlenecked due to low STR distances (about 6 - 8 mutations) on 67 markers between members of this branch, so TMRCA of this Jewish branch may be not older than about 1500 ybp. #N141240 is ZS2102+, but we do not know if he is positive or negative for other SNPs found in the cases of #155666 and #75516. Maybe #N141240 ordered SNP pack, not Big Y. #343472 shares many SNPs with #155666 and #75516, but he is negative for ZS2121, ZS2122, ZS2123. On Genogenea's tree #155666 and #75516 are mentioned as sharing SNPs ZS2102, ZS2104, ZS2106-ZS2109, ZS2111, ZS2113-ZS2127. Here is the page of FGC8712 project (results): https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Benisalih/default.aspx?section=yresults.

[Kriptc06]

likely J

[lyakh]

L859 appears to be also bottlenecked. It may be shrinked if we will know more about SNPs of #188768 and #243233. #188768 and #243233 differ between themselves on 11 STR mutations on 67 markers. #661032 and #M8985 are FGC10500+ and differ on about 19 mutations. Interesting are also #E8519 from Germany and #319752 from Saudi Arabia. Maybe they are splitting from known lineages early?

[wvwvw]

Abraham was a Mittani Hittite for a start and his dna lineage was likely of the J2 Anatolian lineage, the same as that of the Greeks, Hittites, Persians, and Phoenicians.

[lyakh]

#188768 and #243233 differ on 11 STR mutations on 67 markers. #160234 and #188768 differ on 11 STR mutations (if I counted them properly) on 67 markers.

All three FGC8712 sublineages appear to be bottlenecked. Almost all of L859 samples have common ancestor who lived about 1500 years ago. Z18271 expands quite violently, I suppose that its age may be about 3800 years. E-V13-CTS1273 expands more violently than Z18271, but this lineage probably started expansion on the Old Continent (possibly Balkans region).

[Hudayar]

He could be anything

[lyakh]

#91238 and #343472 differ on 5 mutations on 67 markers. #343472 and #275784 differ on 2 mutations on 37 markers.
#343472 and #75516 differs only on 3 mutations at 67 markers. #343472 is negative for ZS2121 and #75516 is positive for ZS2121 (along with #155666). #343472 is ZS2108+, ZS2109+, ZS2111+, ZS2113+, ZS2114+, ZS2115+, ZS2116+, ZS2117+, ZS2118+, ZS2119+, ZS2120+, ZS2124+, ZS2125+, ZS2126+, ZS2127+, ZS2102+, ZS2104+ (so shared at least 17 SNPs with #75516 and #155666).
#343472 and #155666 differs on 7 mutations on 67 markers.
#75516 and #155666 differs on 6 mutations on 67 markers, so STR distance between them is higher than STR distance between #75516 and #343472 although SNP distance between #75516 and #343472 is higher than between #75516 and #155666. So maybe ZS2102 lineage is older than it seems.
#319752 and #243233 differ on 10 mutations on 37 markers.
#661032 and #M8985 differ on 13(?) mutations on 37 markers and belong to FGC10500 branch. Vast majority of FGC8712 samples on Genogenea's tree belong to FGC10500 branch.
I am interested if FGC8712 is the haplogroup of Abraham. All FGC8712 lineages are bottlenecked so far. Z18271 appears to be better candidate for Israelite haplogroup, because it expanded quite rapidly. Age of Z18271 may be much older than suggested 2623 ybp.
On J2 haplogroup branch Z2177 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z2177/) expands quite violently. TMRCA of Z2177 is estimated as 3200 ybp by YFull (and YFull estimations may be 20 - 25% too low).
J2-FGC35489 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-FGC35489/) has estimated TMRCA of 3800 ybp and there are four branches of it: two FGC35489*, FGC35499 and Z39975.
J2-YP879 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-YP879/) has estimated TMRCA of 4700 ybp (I do not believe in it, because there was deluge which ecompasses entire Earth about 4500 ybp) and there are four branches of it: three YP879* (two from Armenia, 1 from Italy) and Y31162 (found in Saudi Arabia and Armenia).
J2-Z8096 (https://yfull.com/tree/J-Z8096/) has estimated TMRCA of 6100 ybp (I do not believe in it, because there was deluge which ecompasses entire Earth about 4500 ybp) and there are six or even seven branches of it: four or even five YZ8096*, S8230 and Y20051.
In J2 haplogroup I do not see as good candidates for Abraham's haplogroup as J1-Z18271 or J1-FGC8712 (or maybe even entire YSC234 clade).

[kingjohn]

he was probably j
if such person truly existed :rolleyes:

[Rethel]

He could be anything

Nope. He couldn't.

[Mark76]

Are you Jewish? Is your Y DNA haplogroup J1? Then Abraham is J1? Not J1 but some other haplogroup? Then Abraham is whatever your haplogroup is.

He's very flexible, genetically speaking.

But, seriously, since he was from the region of Harran (not Ur as erroneously claimed by a certain British archaeologist) in Northern Mesopotamia (AKA Padan Aram or Aram Naharaim), we can't rule out R1B (which originated in that general region), especially as that haplogroup can be found in Arab populations that would have had very little contact with Atlantid Europeans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R-M269

[Dick]

probably I1

[NSXD60]

He was one of the Annunaki who effortlessly altered his appearance to that of the authoritative mien of a Charlton Heston type.

[Rethel]

we can't rule out R1B

It is sensless, as R1b is Japhethite, and Abraham was a Semite.
But he could have some Indoeuropean admix because Esau probably was reddish.
As both Esau's parents came from Terach, then he could be a source or it.

[Rethel]

probably I1

Probably, even certainly, not.

[Rethel]

About the fakeness of the Jews once again.
THE GREATEST CHUTZPAH OF ALL TIMES. (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?346038-About-the-fakeness-of-the-Jews-once-again-THE-GREATEST-CHUTZPAH-OF-ALL-TIMES)

[Longbowman]

Fictional people don't have haplogroups.

[Rethel]

Fictional people don't have haplogroups.

Let's assume, you wrote a novel, about a ficional descendant of Francis Drake living in 25th century who became a king of New Foundland. If somebody would state a hypothetical question, what hg he would have, does it mean that he could be of any hg (as partialy you and the rest of TA believe), or it would mean that he "has" none at all — according to this statement of yours? This fictional character, surely would have a height, eye, hair and skin colour described by you, a place of living, maybe even a dog and a wife — but why not a Y-haplogroup?

[Longbowman]

Let's assume, you wrote a novel, about a ficional descendant of Francis Drake living in 25th century who became a king of New Foundland.
If somebody would state a hypothetical question, what hg he would have, does it mean that he could be of any hg (as partialy you and the
rest of TA believe), or it would mean that he "has" none at all — according to this statement of yours? This fictional character, surely would
have a height, eye, hair and skin colour described by you, a place of living, maybe even a dog and a wife — but why not a Y-haplogroup?

Fair enough

[Cleitus]

E wasn't in Middle east, only J

The Natufian culture(/nəˈtuːfiən/[1]) is a Late Epipaleolithic archaeological culture of the Levant, dating to around 15,000 to 11,500 years ago.

According to ancient DNA analyses conducted by Lazaridis et al. (2016) on Natufian skeletal remains from present-day northern Israel, the Natufians carried the Y-DNA (paternal) haplogroupsE1b1b1b2 (xE1b1b1b2a, E1b1b1b2b)(2/5; 40%),CT(2/5; 40%), andE1b1 (xE1b1a1, E1b1b1b1)(1/5; 20%).

[Rethel]

According to ancient DNA analyses conducted by Lazaridis et al. (2016) on Natufian skeletal remains from present-day northern Israel, the Natufians carried the Y-DNA (paternal) haplogroupsE1b1b1b2 (xE1b1b1b2a, E1b1b1b2b)(2/5; 40%),CT(2/5; 40%), andE1b1 (xE1b1a1, E1b1b1b1)(1/5; 20%).

Kanaan was a brother of Micraim and Put, so, nothing strage, that the result is similar.