Greek genetic connections/IBD sharing to Western Europe: why and how?

[Sikeliot]

The study on the Peloponnese that has been cited found that in addition to high IBD sharing with Italy, the next greatest is Spain, then France. IBD sharing to North Slavic people and Levantines was too low to be of significance. Other Balkanites were not surveyed for comparison.

IBD sharing to Andalusians ranged from 53.8% in Arcadia to 62% in Corinth, with other regions close to 60%. To France, they all hovered around 40%.

Why would Greeks have so much IBD sharing with SW Europe, based on history, migrations, and so on? Or is there a Celtic element in Greek genetics that often goes unmentioned?

[Coolguy1]

Same neolithic stock

[Sikeliot]

Same neolithic stock

People mistake "Neolithic" for "West Asian" then, because the part of Greek DNA shared with places like Sicily or Cyprus is not shared with Spain (the more recent CHG type DNA). So I think you must mean ancestry that predates this.

[Petalpusher]

The IBD Greeks share with France is likely a reflection of us sharing with Italians, and Greeks sharing high IBD with Italians. What's in the supplementary figure? i cannot open it.

[Sikeliot]

The IBD Greeks share with France is likely a reflection of us sharing with Italians, and Greeks sharing high IBD with Italians. What's in the supplementary figure? i cannot open it.

But what about their sharing with Spain?

[wvwvw]

Ancient Greeks were partially Iberian so it is not surprising. The Atlanto-med and R1b in Balkans comes from Iberians.

[safinator]

The Atlanto-med and R1b in Balkans comes from Iberians.

:picard1:

[wvwvw]

:picard1:

According to Roman records the Iberians were not European language speakers but lost their original language which was replaced by Latin. Similarly by their own testimony the Romans learned their language from the Greeks thus the most likely expalation is that in 5000 BC the Italo-Celts migrated from Iberia to the Balkans and learned to speak Pelasgian Greek from the Minoans by 3000 BC when the Minoans made themselves the masters of all of Europe.

Since the Basques were an Isolated population it is obvious that Basque was the original language of all the entire R1b linage, unless the Basques were all speechless until 3,000 years ago which is highly unlikely.

The Slavs were originally part of the Basque language group 20,000 years ago before the appearance of the R1a linage. The maind body of the original R1 linage had by then migrated to Iberia and became the ancestors of the Celts and Italics.

The original language of the Celts who all originated from Iberia was Basque up until they came into contact with the Greeks in Minoan times. Apollonius wrote about the Celts in 735 BC beginning his account in 1250 BC. In 3000 BC the Greek Minoan civilisation ruled ALL of Europe and with the Mycenaean's in 1700 BC the Greeks continued to rule Europe untill the Romans. The Minoans spoke proto-Greek but the Greek language was a result of Basque+proto Greek.

The R1b linage who went to the Balkans became the Illyrian-Italo-Celts and Hellenes. The break between the Illyrian-Italo-Celts and the Hellenes can be dated historically to 1450 BC. By 1250 BC the Celts were recorded in the Rhone-Rhine region. In 1163 BC the Italic tribes reached northern Italy and subsumed the Tyrennians (a tribe of Maoenians originating from Caria in 1610 BC). At the same time the Latin's who had no relation to the Italics, but were a tribe of Greeks from Troy reached Rome.

Since the Celts were part of the Iberian R1b linage they cannot have spoken and indo-European language until 5000 years ago when they came into contact with the Helladic/Pelasgian Greek Minoans who were of mixed M89 and YAP linage.

5000 years ago the Pelasgians and one group of Anatolians combined forces to form the Minoan Greek civilisation which spread the Greek language to the Italo-Celts and Hellenes in the north. 3000 years ago the Hellenes migrated south and together with the Helladic Minoans formed the Hellenic civilization.

Of the remainder of the Anatolians one group went on to become Hittites, and another the Iranians about 5000 years ago. Both groups were of the same M89 linage and the Minoans.

[Petalpusher]

But what about their sharing with Spain?

I don't even know if 50 is really that high, that's why i wanted to see what's in the supplementary file. Russia two times higher than Polish or Ukraine, is a bit weird. It doesn't seem to be IBD btw just admixture, it says shared ancestry between K4 and K8 under the table. The IBD run is the heatmap of the regions all together.

[Laberia]

The study on the Peloponnese that has been cited found that in addition to high IBD sharing with Italy, the next greatest is Spain, then France. IBD sharing to North Slavic people and Levantines was too low to be of significance. Other Balkanites were not surveyed for comparison.

IBD sharing to Andalusians ranged from 53.8% in Arcadia to 62% in Corinth, with other regions close to 60%. To France, they all hovered around 40%.

Why would Greeks have so much IBD sharing with SW Europe, based on history, migrations, and so on? Or is there a Celtic element in Greek genetics that often goes unmentioned?
Because they are greeks. Everybody in the world is greek.
You still don't understand that this famous recent genetic study of Peloponnesus is a pseudoscientific document? This kind of studies are maybe good for Greece but not for an international audience.

[Hithaeglir]

If it's just for the Peloponnesus and France the most recent historical event that could explain this sharing is the Frankish rule of Peloponnese, but imo it wasn't that long to create such an impact on the peloponnesian genetics,most likely it's something that predates that.


In 1205, following the dissolution of the Byzantine Empire by the forces of the Fourth Crusade, the Crusaders under William of Champlitte and Geoffrey of Villehardouin marched south through mainland Greece and conquered the Peloponnese against sporadic local Greek resistance. The Franks then founded the Principality of Achaea, nominally a vassal of the Latin Empire, while the Venetians occupied a number of strategically important ports around the coast such as Navarino and Coron, which they retained into the 15th century.[24] The Franks popularized the name Morea for the peninsula, which first appears as the name of a small bishopric in Elis during the 10th century. Its etymology is disputed, but it is most commonly held to be derived from the mulberry tree (morea), whose leaves are similar in shape to the peninsula.[25]

Frankish supremacy in the peninsula however received a critical blow after the Battle of Pelagonia, when William II of Villehardouin was forced to cede the newly constructed fortress and palace at Mystras near ancient Sparta to a resurgent Byzantium. This Greek province (and later a semi-autonomous Despotate) staged a gradual reconquest, eventually conquering the Frankish principality by 1430.[26] The same period was also marked by the migration and settlement of the Arvanites to Central Greece and the Peloponnese.[27]

The Ottoman Turks began raiding the Peloponnese from c. 1358, but their raids intensified only after 1387, when the energetic Evrenos Bey took control. Exploiting the quarrels between Byzantines and Franks, he plundered across the peninsula and forced both the Byzantine despots and the remaining Frankish rulers to acknowledge Ottoman suzerainty and pay tribute. This situation lasted until the Ottoman defeat at the Battle of Ankara in 1402, after which Ottoman power was for a time checked.[28] Ottoman incursions into the Morea resumed under Turahan Bey after 1423. Despite the reconstruction of the Hexamilion wall at the Isthmus of Corinth, the Ottomans under Murad II breached it in 1446, forcing the Despots of the Morea to re-acknowledge Ottoman suzerainty, and again under Turahan in 1452 and 1456. Following the occupation of the Duchy of Athens in 1456, the Ottomans occupied a third of the Peloponnese in 1458, and Sultan Mehmed II extinguished the remnants of the Despotate in 1460. The last Byzantine stronghold, Salmeniko Castle, under its commander Graitzas Palaiologos, held out until July 1461.[28] Only the Venetian fortresses of Modon, Coron, Navarino, Monemvasia, Argos and Nauplion escaped Ottoman control.[28]

[Sikeliot]

I don't even know if 50 is really that high, that's why i wanted to see what's in the supplementary file. Russia two times higher than Polish or Ukraine, is a bit weird. It doesn't seem to be IBD btw just admixture, it says shared ancestry between K4 and K8 under the table. The IBD run is the heatmap of the regions all together.

For what it was worth, France was in the 40-50 range, and Spain in the 50-60 range. Italy in the 80-90 range.

[Percivalle]

The study on the Peloponnese that has been cited found that in addition to high IBD sharing with Italy, the next greatest is Spain, then France. IBD sharing to North Slavic people and Levantines was too low to be of significance. Other Balkanites were not surveyed for comparison.

IBD sharing to Andalusians ranged from 53.8% in Arcadia to 62% in Corinth, with other regions close to 60%. To France, they all hovered around 40%.

Why would Greeks have so much IBD sharing with SW Europe, based on history, migrations, and so on? Or is there a Celtic element in Greek genetics that often goes unmentioned?

It's not really IBD, it's shared ancestry, similar but not exactly the same thing. In the paper IBD sharing is only among Greeks.

[Sikeliot]

The point is though that shared ancestry with both Slavs and Levantines is low, but with French it approaches half. Why would this be?

[Percivalle]

The point is though that shared ancestry with both Slavs and Levantines is low, but with French it approaches half. Why would this be?

It's the goal of the paper.

[Sikeliot]

It's the goal of the paper.

But does it make sense?

Frankly I think if they measured sharing with Bulgarians it'd be much higher than for French or Spanish. I think they omitted other Balkan populations and it creates a misleading report.

Low IBD with the Levant and Russia makes sense.