Northeast Sicily by y-dna: entirely lacking historical "northern" inputs? Chart provided.

[Sikeliot]

I have seen people wonder, given that the area never saw heavy Arab or Phoenician colonization, why the Messina/Catania/Enna area seems to have the highest affinity to the Near East and is on par with only the most outlying Greek islands in genes, and are so Near Eastern that the "half Spanish half Lebanese" model fails for them.

I have long proposed that these regions have changed comparatively little over the last 3000 years, while other neighboring regions changed much more. Therefore, we should reevaluate what we know of the history.

Here is what I see, explaining the low Northern affinity:

1. I1 and I2a2, which would arrive by the Normans, are lacking entirely.
2. R1b is very low, for Italian standards, implying a smaller impact from the Italian mainland and Western Europe.
3. R1a (which could be either from Normans, Greeks, or even older Indo-European settlement) is lower than the rest of the island.

And they also do not have much historical MENA input either, implying that which they have is very, very ancient:

1. Haplogroups T and J1, which would have been brought from actual Arabs or indirectly via North Africa, are much lower than on the southern coast.
2. J2 and E1b1b, which would have been more common in a pre-Arab Middle East, are high.

So while it is said the original people of eastern Sicily were Siculi and were an Italic group, the genes do not bear out a mass migration from mainland Italy to there.

http://i65.tinypic.com/f4368y.jpg

[Kelmendasi]

I have seen people wonder, given that the area never saw heavy Arab or Phoenician colonization, why the Messina/Catania/Enna area seems to have the highest affinity to the Near East and is on par with only the most outlying Greek islands in genes, and are so Near Eastern that the "half Spanish half Lebanese" model fails for them.

I have long proposed that these regions have changed comparatively little over the last 3000 years, while other neighboring regions changed much more. Therefore, we should reevaluate what we know of the history.

Here is what I see, explaining the low Northern affinity:

1. I1 and I2a2, which would arrive by the Normans, are lacking entirely.
2. R1b is very low, for Italian standards, implying a smaller impact from the Italian mainland and Western Europe.
3. R1a (which could be either from Normans, Greeks, or even older Indo-European settlement) is lower than the rest of the island.

And they also do not have much historical MENA input either, implying that which they have is very, very ancient:

1. Haplogroups T and J1, which would have been brought from actual Arabs or indirectly via North Africa, are much lower than on the southern coast.
2. J2 and E1b1b, which would have been more common in a pre-Arab Middle East, are high.

So while it is said the original people of eastern Sicily were Siculi and were an Italic group, the genes do not bear out a mass migration from mainland Italy to there.

[IG]http://i65.tinypic.com/f4368y.jpg[/IMG]
J1 is also from the Phoenicians/Carthaginians not only Arabs as it pre-dates the Arabs but they did absorb it and did spread it with their raids in Sicily but still a good amount I would say is from the Phoenicians/Carthaginians. Etruscans could of carried it as well but I doubt the J1 in Sicily is from them

[Sikeliot]

J1 is also from the Phoenicians/Carthaginians not only Arabs as it pre-dates the Arabs but they did absorb it and did spread it with their raids in Sicily but still a good amount I would say is from the Phoenicians/Carthaginians. Etruscans could of carried it as well but I doubt the J1 in Sicily is from them

J1 in Sicily should be Arab, I think.

What the maps show is the most recent "Arab" input on the southern coast (architecture and culture shows this, it doesn't take a genius to figure it out), higher northern input along the northwest coast (though this seems more in Trapani than Palermo also judging by higher R1b), and the northeast has little to no foreign input at all of any kind. Palermo province should be taken by town and area since they vary so much.

[Kelmendasi]

J1 in Sicily should be Arab, I think.

What the maps show is the most recent "Arab" input on the southern coast (architecture and culture shows this, it doesn't take a genius to figure it out), higher northern input along the northwest coast (though this seems more in Trapani than Palermo also judging by higher R1b), and the northeast has little to no foreign input at all of any kind. Palermo province should be taken by town and area since they vary so much.
Yh I agree that majority of it should be of "Arab" input in Sicily but Phoenicians did carry this. Bet yet again every J in the Middle east such as J1 and J2 isn't Arab they are native in the fertile crescent but Arabs/Semites absorbed it, original Semites/Arabs were E1b1b-M34 but J1 and J2 got absorbed by the Arabs/Semites

[Sikeliot]

Yh I agree that majority of it should be of "Arab" input in Sicily but Phoenicians did carry this. Bet yet again every J in the Middle east such as J1 and J2 isn't Arab they are native in the fertile crescent but Arabs/Semites absorbed it, original Semites/Arabs were E1b1b-M34 but J1 and J2 got absorbed by the Arabs/Semites

I mean it could have been Carthaginian too. But the point remains that for being so highly shifted to the Near East, northeast Sicily likely has no historical input from there. Autosomally what we get are people on the southern coast who are shifted to North Africa and Levant, people in the northwest who vary tremendously with some being northern shifted and others very exotic (almost like Moroccan Jews), people in the southeast who shift toward Greece, and then the northeast which, like Calabria, are more or less like Cypriots with minor West European input.

[Kelmendasi]

I mean it could have been Carthaginian too. But the point remains that for being so highly shifted to the Near East, northeast Sicily likely has no historical input from there. Autosomally what we get are people on the southern coast who are shifted to North Africa and Levant, people in the northwest who vary tremendously with some being northern shifted and others very exotic (almost like Moroccan Jews), people in the southeast who shift toward Greece, and then the northeast which, like Calabria, are more or less like Cypriots with minor West European input.
True most of it is of Arab raids in the medieval period this is shown by how shifted they are to the Middle East as you have just said

[Deymark]

Yh I agree that majority of it should be of "Arab" input in Sicily but Phoenicians did carry this. Bet yet again every J in the Middle east such as J1 and J2 isn't Arab they are native in the fertile crescent but Arabs/Semites absorbed it, original Semites/Arabs were E1b1b-M34 but J1 and J2 got absorbed by the Arabs/Semites

Arab.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f2/Distribution_Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.svg/800px-Distribution_Haplogroup_J1_Y-DNA.svg.png

[Sikeliot]

True most of it is of Arab raids in the medieval period this is shown by how shifted they are to the Middle East as you have just said

My thought is the original Sicilian population would have been like Cyprus.

[Kelmendasi]

My thought is the original Sicilian population would have been like Cyprus.
What ancient group do most Sicilians descend from?

[Sikeliot]

What ancient group do most Sicilians descend from?

Probably the original natives of the island who would have probably been of Neolithic descent. Or related to Minoans and Cypriots.

[Kelmendasi]

Probably the original natives of the island who would have probably been of Neolithic descent. Or related to Minoans and Cypriots.
Probably

[Sikeliot]

What is worth noting is autosomally the North African is higher in the west (both northwest and southwest) of the island and low in the east especially the northeast. So this could be the Carthaginian input.

[Kelmendasi]

What is worth noting is autosomally the North African is higher in the west (both northwest and southwest) of the island and low in the east especially the northeast. So this could be the Carthaginian input.
True but Levantine should also be high if it is Carthaginian influence as that's were they originated from. North African could also been brought by Arabs of Berber or Moor origin

[Percivalle]

J1 is also from the Phoenicians/Carthaginians not only Arabs as it pre-dates the Arabs but they did absorb it and did spread it with their raids in Sicily but still a good amount I would say is from the Phoenicians/Carthaginians.

"Most J1 Europeans belong to the J1-Z1828 branch, which is also found in Anatolia and the Caucasus, but not in Arabic countries. "

Most of J1 in Italy and Sicily dates back to the Bronze Age and has nothing to do with Phoenicians/Carthaginians and Arabs.

Among Bosnian Serbs J*/J1 are 3,5%, in Moldova J*/J1 is 4%, in Hungary J*/J1 is 3%, in Italy J*/J1 is 3%, in Greece J*/J1 is 3% (in Crete is 5%), in Portugal J*/J1 is 3%, in Albania J*/J1 is 2%, in France J*/J1 is 1.5% (Midi-Pyrénées J*/J1 is 4%). In Sicily J*/J1 is 3.5%, in Sardinia J*/J1 is 4%.



Etruscans could of carried it as well but I doubt the J1 in Sicily is from them

Etruscans have nothing to do with the spread of J1, J1 is more common in non-Etruscan areas rather than in Etruscan areas (in Etruscan areas R1b is the dominant Y-DNA).

[Rethel]

3. R1a (which could be either from Normans, Greeks, or even older Indo-European settlement) is lower than the rest of the island.

If I remeber correctly, there were some Slavs on muslim
Sycylia (or maybe it was Sardinia, no, rather Sicily).

[Sikeliot]

If I remeber correctly, there were some Slavs on muslim
Sycylia (or maybe it was Sardinia, no, rather Sicily).

Too few to make any large impact. The northeast European input on the island is very slow. But either way if we measure it by R1b and I2, then it is again absent in NE Sicily.

[Rethel]

Too few to make any large impact.

It depends how much did they multiply. It does not matter
how much they were at the beginning. Couple thousands of
people then could give hundrets of thousands, even millions
people today - could, but it not means, they did.
And I see, that R1a is very equally spread.


The northeast European input on the island is very slow. But either way if we measure it by R1b and I2, then it is again absent in NE Sicily.

Interesting is, that I2, I1 and R1b is mainly around Palermo.

[Sikeliot]

Interesting is, that I2, I1 and R1b is mainly about Palermo.

R1b is mostly Trapani actually. R1b increases as you move west. The thing with Palermo is, many of their subclades of J2 and E1b1b are the MENA subclades, while those in eastern Sicily are Neolithic and mediated through the Anatolia --> Balkans --> Italy route.

So autosomally some Palermitans can come out quite MENA but in terms of haplogroup you see they have much more foreign input of all kinds.

What is also interesting is the inland west of the island, like Caltanissetta. They are intermediate between east and west Sicily and while they have low foreign input from North Europe, they have more MENA input than the east from recent times, and high haplogroup G, from a Caucasus-based wave of migration in the Bronze Age.

[Sikeliot]

In fact going by I1 and R1b, even Calabria has seen more migration from the north than has NE Sicily.

[Voskos]

calabria has highest R1b L23 frequency in southeast europe I believe.

[Sikeliot]

calabria has highest R1b L23 frequency in southeast europe I believe.

Yes. So it is also possible that eastern Sicilian R1b is the same.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d2/95/6d/d2956de192a379b5eeddccf344356fd9.gif

[Sikeliot]

What is odd is, Cretan and Aegean islands' R1b is Italic. How did this turn out? :lol:

[Sikeliot]

How this shows up autosomally if you compare people from say, Palermo to people in NE Sicily is the NE Sicilians have very high East Med, West Asian, West Med. And low of everything else. The Palermitans have inflated Atlantic, Red Sea, North African, Arabian, heck, they even have higher East European. Anything you can imagine as being non-native, whether MENA or European, is higher in the west.

The overall PCA placement is not far off because of how the components average out, but you see what I mean.

[Voskos]

What is odd is, Cretan and Aegean islands' R1b is Italic. How did this turn out? :lol:

crete has 7% r1b u152, probably from venetians. r1b is overall not that high though

[Sikeliot]

crete has 7% r1b u152, probably from venetians. r1b is overall not that high though

It's not that high in eastern Sicily or Calabria but of what it has, most of it looks eastern R1b.

It is interesting that region didn't absorb all of the foreign admixture that other regions did. I suspect the people were fiercely nationalistic and defended their land well :lol:

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

I have seen people wonder, given that the area never saw heavy Arab or Phoenician colonization, why the Messina/Catania/Enna area seems to have the highest affinity to the Near East and is on par with only the most outlying Greek islands in genes, and are so Near Eastern that the "half Spanish half Lebanese" model fails for them.

I have long proposed that these regions have changed comparatively little over the last 3000 years, while other neighboring regions changed much more. Therefore, we should reevaluate what we know of the history.

Here is what I see, explaining the low Northern affinity:

1. I1 and I2a2, which would arrive by the Normans, are lacking entirely.
2. R1b is very low, for Italian standards, implying a smaller impact from the Italian mainland and Western Europe.
3. R1a (which could be either from Normans, Greeks, or even older Indo-European settlement) is lower than the rest of the island.

And they also do not have much historical MENA input either, implying that which they have is very, very ancient:

1. Haplogroups T and J1, which would have been brought from actual Arabs or indirectly via North Africa, are much lower than on the southern coast.
2. J2 and E1b1b, which would have been more common in a pre-Arab Middle East, are high.

So while it is said the original people of eastern Sicily were Siculi and were an Italic group, the genes do not bear out a mass migration from mainland Italy to there.

http://i65.tinypic.com/f4368y.jpg

Very Intresting.