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View Full Version : Trump outraged South Koreans by saying Korea used to be part of China. Is he right?



Timawa
04-22-2017, 07:10 PM
US President Donald Trump hasn't won any friends in South Korea this week.

A firestorm has erupted on South Korean social media after Trump said during an interview with The Wall Street Journal, “Korea actually used to be a part of China.”

The Wall Street Journal published the story on April 12, but it gained traction in South Korea this week.

An official with the foreign ministry in Seoul responded Wednesday by saying the Trump comment was “historically untrue” and “not worthy of a response.”

Trump was speaking to the Journal about his meeting in Florida with Chinese leader Xi Jinping.

“He then went into the history of China and Korea," Trump recalled. "Not North Korea, Korea. And you know, you’re talking about thousands of years ... and many wars. And Korea actually used to be a part of China. And after listening for 10 minutes, I realized that it’s not so easy.”

Koreans are deeply offended by any suggestion that their nation used to belong to China. But is there any truth to the statement?

To paraphrase Trump, it’s not so easy. It really depends on whom you talk to.

Koreans point out, quite correctly, that their national territory has never been administered directly as part of China proper by Chinese officials. Never in recorded history.

However, it’s equally true that for most of history, the different kingdoms located on the Korean Peninsula have been tributary states to China. A tributary state is one that pays tribute, in goods and money, to the receiving state. In exchange, the tributary state is allowed to live in peace, and govern its own affairs.

It’s clearly a subordinate relationship. The client state has to behave in certain ways or face the consequences.

It’s like an old-fashioned extortion racket in a city neighborhood. You pay off the mobsters on a regular basis or face the consequences.

So you run your own business, but are you really free?

In the case of states, the consequences could mean invasion and systematic pillaging.

For China, it’s all about respect.

In the traditional Chinese Confucian view of the world, China is the Middle Kingdom between heaven and Earth, and everywhere else on Earth is subordinate to some degree. For centuries, China forced its nearest neighbors to pay tribute as a sign of respect and recognition of their subordinate status. The amount depended on how strong a particular dynasty was at any particular time in history. At times, the tribute could be purely symbolic.

So does this tributary relationship mean Korea belonged to China at any time? A legalistic definition would say no. But in other empires, similar tributary relationships have been recognized as imperial ones. For example, no one questions that the British once controlled India, but much of the “empire” there consisted of tributary client states like Kashmir or Hyderabad: large states, under traditional dynasties, which controlled their own affairs, and yet were seen as part of “British India.” It’s the same for various Muslim states that became subordinate to Czarist Russia.

There’s even more ambiguity at those times in history when China and Korea were simultaneously invaded and overrun by peoples like the Mongols and Manchu. The Mongols, in particular. They assumed sovereign power in China in the 1200s and at the same time reduced Korea to a vassal state. In a sense, the Mongols became Chinese, and also controlled Korea. So was Korea "part of" China at this time? There’s no clear answer.

So how did Trump take away from his meeting Xi that Korea was once "part of" China?

There’s no transcript of the meeting, and no public, detailed Chinese account. But it seems reasonable to assume that Xi tried to convey some of the complexity of this relationship between China and Korea, going back thousands of years.

Perhaps Trump oversimplified or misstated the history. But some South Koreans are considering an alternative explanation — one they find pretty alarming. It’s the possibility that this is exactly what the Chinese president actually said. That he believes Korea used to be part of China.

Xi is understood to have a pretty traditional view of the world. Some commentators in South Korea have expressed concern that he might have what they call “hegemonic ambitions.” And they argue it’s conceivable that Xi might actually want to reduce China’s neighbors to their traditional role of tributary states.

With stakes like that, Trump's account of the conversation is no small deal.

https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-04-20/trump-outraged-south-koreans-saying-korea-used-be-part-china-he-right

Timawa
04-22-2017, 07:11 PM
@zhaoyun

I have a question for you. Please enlighten me. I have no knowledge in Chinese history.

Was Korea used to be part of China?

jingorex
04-22-2017, 07:38 PM
Trump was right, parts of the Korean peninsula were taken by China during the Han dynasty in 30bc.

Korea has also been a vassal of China in the past.

This fact may cause a lot of butthurt but that's not Trumps problem.


http://www.timemaps.com/history/china-1500bc/

zhaoyun
04-23-2017, 03:44 AM
@zhaoyun

I have a question for you. Please enlighten me. I have no knowledge in Chinese history.

Was Korea used to be part of China?


He was right. Koreans nowadays are super nationalistic and like to claim their uniqueness. But in reality, at several times in history, they were a Chinese province. They were almost absorbed into the Chinese empire.

During the Han dynasty, North Korea was a Chinese province.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0402/feature1/images/mp_full.1.jpg

Sekarotuinen
04-23-2017, 07:50 AM
Korea was more integrated than a tributary state at various points in history. Early Joseon Korea was more or less totally subordinate to Ming China.

Graham
04-23-2017, 08:02 AM
The insecurities of a small nation or smaller similar culture linked to a big one. Could write a book on it.

Al-Meksiki
04-23-2017, 08:18 AM
Koreans are hilarious in how thin skinned they are

Böri
04-23-2017, 08:25 AM
Koreans descend from Koguryeo, they are clear-cut non-Chinese by almost all aspects. Chinese occupied parts of NK in history is meaningless. It's like I say Hungary and South Slovakia should be Turkey's because once upon a time we occupied it and incorporated. Korea closer to Japan than China, north East Asians different than East Asians.

BeerBaron
04-23-2017, 08:35 AM
South Korea is pretty dependent on the US military, if it's the citizens that are outraged big deal, it's not like officials in South Korea want the US pissed with them, they will probably pander a bit to their base and it'll all blow over.

jingorex
04-23-2017, 09:27 AM
Koreans descend from Koguryeo, they are clear-cut non-Chinese by almost all aspects. Chinese occupied parts of NK in history is meaningless. It's like I say Hungary and South Slovakia should be Turkey's because once upon a time we occupied it and incorporated. Korea closer to Japan than China, north East Asians different than East Asians.

nothing you said here really matters in relation to the topic.

Trump was correct. China was balls deep in the Korean peninsula, fact.

Böri
04-23-2017, 09:29 AM
nothing you said here really matters in relation to the topic.

Trump was correct. China was balls deep in the Korean peninsula, fact.

You and me we two know he said that because he wants China occupies NK and solve a problem without spill for US. :) So he means in fact: Chinks Invade NK.

jingorex
04-23-2017, 09:34 AM
You and me we two know he said that because he wants China occupies NK and solve a problem without spill for US. :) So he means in fact: Chinks Invade NK.

http://www.timemaps.com/history/china-30bc


https://media.giphy.com/media/3otPoz2V9lPlSH9pde/giphy.gif

zhaoyun
04-23-2017, 03:44 PM
Koreans descend from Koguryeo, they are clear-cut non-Chinese by almost all aspects. Chinese occupied parts of NK in history is meaningless. It's like I say Hungary and South Slovakia should be Turkey's because once upon a time we occupied it and incorporated. Korea closer to Japan than China, north East Asians different than East Asians.

China absorbed many other nations in history. Early on in its history, Korea was a Chinese province and going through the same process of assimilation as many other regions that were eventually absorbed into China.

And why do you bring Turkey into every conversation? You're fucking annoying. No one gives two fucks about Turkey, its a mediocre, irrelevant country.

N1019
04-23-2017, 03:48 PM
Yeah, probably. Whatever. Korea is like an appendix hanging off of geographical China. They're a different ethnic group in the region, but obviously they are related, as the shape of their eyes, head and skin colour would suggest. That doesn't mean Korea belongs to the so-called People's Republic of China, though. I wish that shithole would do the world a favour and fuck up and die. I have nothing against China itself, but a new China needs to be born. Every time I read the words "Made in China" on value-added goods it gives me the bloody pip!

Scholarios
04-30-2017, 01:51 PM
Korea was a dependent and very rarely parts of it were supposedly under Han commanderies. Honestly , Koreans are thinned-skinned, but the Chinese believe even Philippines is part of China because Cantonese merchants went there. I don't think Jinping said that anyways.

Korea was more directly part of Japan from 1910-1945 than it ever was under China. China was a protector and guarantor of Korea's sovereignty in the same way USA and China currently are. The Chinese vassal system is not a 1 for 1 analog to what we think of as Empire in the modern western sense.

zhaoyun
04-30-2017, 03:12 PM
Korea was a dependent and very rarely parts of it were supposedly under Han commanderies. Honestly , Koreans are thinned-skinned, but the Chinese believe even Philippines is part of China because Cantonese merchants went there. I don't think Jinping said that anyways.

Korea was more directly part of Japan from 1910-1945 than it ever was under China. China was a protector and guarantor of Korea's sovereignty in the same way USA and China currently are. The Chinese vassal system is not a 1 for 1 analog to what we think of as Empire in the modern western sense.

For the most part true, regarding the sovereignty, but for a period during the Han Dynasty, Korea was ruled as a provincial territory. But for the vast majority of Sino-Korean relations, Korea was a vassal state.

Chinese people do not claim the Philippines as ever being part of China.

Timawa
04-30-2017, 09:16 PM
The reason Koreans are outraged are they are fiercely loyal to S. Korea and nationalistic. The sense of nationalism was rooted into their independence from Japan during the colonial period. I obatined some information from my Korean friend and on the Internet.

Goujian
05-04-2017, 04:22 AM
Just give nukes to South Korea, that'll solve the problem. THAAD does nothing for South Korea, but giving it nukes is a different story.

Hexachordia
05-04-2017, 05:06 AM
Just give nukes to South Korea, that'll solve the problem. THAAD does nothing for South Korea, but giving it nukes is a different story.

China`s doublde-standard regarding korean penisula has costed patience of the world, while China vigorously warns against THAAD destabilizing regional security in threatening tones, China has never endeavored to stop NK from developing strategic nuclear weapons and missiles. Given the history that NK attacked SK preemptively in 1950,the anticipation of another preemptive attack from NK is not off the ground. HOW can someone say just give SK the nukes as chinese government claims THAAD, a defensive deployment is their concern of destabilization? Your statement here is a perfect portrayal of hypocrisy of chinese communism government in criticizing, warning against THAAD system.

Hexachordia
05-04-2017, 05:26 AM
The West always tries to appease them in an attempt to boast about their diplomatic power, but it always leads to war in the end. It is a common sense that communists are not to be trusted, they are soulless zombies possessed by all the vices. The world has come into a grey area where good and evil are obscured by reality, it is truly in danger of a great war. My will is simple, I do not want a war. I urge the West to take all actions to rein in the two eastern monsters, it is the time to test your ideological values, your meaning of existence.

Sadly I must admit that stupidity of chinese communist bureaucrats are the foremost cause of this danger, however, I must also blame their international friends which have been encouraging their stupidity, never have offered a dose of sedation to their rabid psychology.