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Loki
11-14-2010, 10:40 AM
Ireland's young flee abroad as economic meltdown looms (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/nov/14/ireland-economic-crisis)

Many young people are seeking to emigrate rather than face a life of hardship as the republic lurches towards financial collapse

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/cartoons/2010/11/13/1289657864548/Homeless-man-Ireland-006.jpg

Student Niamh Buffini works hard and plays hard. As Ireland's No 1 taekwondo martial arts practitioner – she is rated 12th in the world – her ambitions include winning Olympic gold for Ireland.

But by the end of this month her future will have been decided by forces not just beyond her control but seemingly those of her government also. Ireland is on the cusp of insolvency. Some economists argue that it already is.

Buffini will soon learn if her fees at the Institute of Technology in Tallaght, south Dublin, have climbed beyond her means. Her father is a self-employed builder, which has recently become a euphemism for "unemployed".

"My class size will have dropped by 50% by next year," Buffini said. "Even lecturers took part in the recent student protests over fees because society here is going to be left with very few educated people. My best friends have already left – they're doing bar work in Spain and Australia."

Last week was not a good week for Ireland. Speculation about a European Union-backed bailout pushed its borrowing costs to unprecedented heights.

At Buffini's college on Friday, the day began with a protest by construction workers who were supposed to have been working on a new wing. Their paymaster Michael McNamara – the country's premier construction firm – had been put into receivership under the weight of debts of €1.5bn (£1.27bn), leaving them jobless and out of pocket for work they had already completed.

So far the workers' demonstrations have remained largely peaceful. Indeed, many Tallaght students seemed shocked by the violence they witnessed in TV reports from London involving their British counterparts. But that may change.

Economists are sought-after celebrities in Ireland at the moment and none is more famous than Morgan Kelly. His doom-laden words are lapped up by a nation addicted to Celtic melancholy.

Kelly, of University College Dublin, was laughed at, scorned and even threatened when he correctly predicted, as long ago as 2007, that Ireland's property bubble was heading for a spectacular explosion.

Now he is forecasting mass mortgage defaults and an ugly popular uprising. The first stirrings are already visible, he says, with "anxiety giving way to the first upwellings of an inchoate rage and despair that will transform Irish politics along the lines of the Tea Party in America", giving rise to a new "hard-right, anti-Europe, anti-traveller party".

The fact that Kelly got it right last time means that his dire warnings are now being given serious consideration this time around, but so far there is no evidence that the Irish are turning into racist extremists.

Polish immigrants, whose arrival in Ireland less than a decade ago increased the workforce by an astonishing 20%, have left in orderly fashion and with no complaints about their treatment. More worrying is the trend for the young Irish to follow them abroad.

Mark Ward, president of Tallaght's student union, says that 1,250 students are leaving Ireland every month. One in five graduates is seeking work outside the country. The Union of Students in Ireland believes that 150,000 students will emigrate in the next five years.

Ward, a 26-year-old marketing graduate, said: "The government's to blame for bankrolling the banks who were lending to their property developer friends. They all thought the party would never end.

"Students shouldn't have to pay for the mistakes of the government and their developer pals. It's going to take years to sort this mess out and it won't be just my generation which will be blighted big time."

Is the social fabric of Ireland beginning to unravel? The Kingdom, one of the country's much-loved local papers, recently reported that nearly 200 Gaelic footballers and hurlers have left Kerry to play in Britain, Australia and the US in the first seven months of this year. The true figure is probably double that.

The charity Barnardo's said that children were asking it for food because there was not enough for them to eat at home. "Some of our services are being asked by children if they can take food home for later because there just isn't enough," said Carmel O'Donovan, a project co-ordinator with Barnardo's.

And it's not just the most vulnerable who are feeling the pinch. Greystones is a wealthy Wicklow seaside town whose most famous resident is Sean FitzPatrick, the former chairman of nationalised Anglo Irish Bank. Emer O'Brien, an interior designer, and her architect husband Killian are struggling to repay their mortgage.

"It is awful, a bit like waiting for a bomb to explode but simply not knowing when," she said. "I don't think anybody has any faith in any of the politicians to fix this problem. Over 70% of education and health spending goes on pay and pensions, so all the cuts in those departments are coming from front-line services.

"I hope I don't get sick in the coming months because there'll be nobody to tend to you in the hospitals. Of course, a lot of people would be heading across the Irish Sea or the Atlantic if only they could sell their houses, but we can't do that either. So basically we're stuck on the Titanic as it goes down."

Next month the government will deliver its latest austerity budget with the aim of slashing a further €15bn from public spending on top of the €14.5bn it has already been forced to cut. But Kelly has argued that the public sector cuts are "an exercise in futility" when compared with the €70bn bill for Ireland's bad banks. "What is the point of rearranging the spending deckchairs, when the iceberg of bank losses is going to sink us anyway?" he asked in the Irish Times last week.

Put at its starkest, for the next six to seven years, every cent of income tax paid by Irish citizens will go to cover the banks' losses.

At the Capuchin Friary in Smithfield sausage breakfasts are being served to Dublin's growing band of homeless and needy people. "There's new faces arriving every day. At first they're embarrassed to be here but we put them at their ease," one of the volunteers said.

Gerry Larkin, the drop-in centre's security manager, has noticed that occupants of the many neighbouring apartment blocks which were supposed to regenerate the city's down-at-heel north side are now taking their places in the queue for food parcels.

He said: "Some of them have got into trouble with their mortgages and they're asking me at the door: 'Any chance of coming in, can you give me even a bit of food for the kids?'

"We've gone from 150 breakfasts during the boom years to 450 now and another 700 coming in for lunch."

Five nights a week Niamh Buffini trains in her local martial arts club, nurturing her dream of winning gold for Ireland. "I'm always upbeat, but with my friends the chat about how bad things are is never ending.

"I'm an optimist by nature and I hope we can get out of this. The best I could say is I couldn't see it getting any worse."

Magister Eckhart
11-14-2010, 11:55 AM
So the diaspora grows. Pretty soon we're going to be rivalling the Jews in how many of us don't live in the land of our own country.

Vasconcelos
11-14-2010, 12:06 PM
About the same has been happening here in the rectangle for years, no one has any hope in the country's future and youngsters fresh out of Universities would rather work abroad and earn 2 to 3 times more abroad. Mostly in the US and Germany.

Loki
11-14-2010, 12:10 PM
In my view, this was all precipitated by Ireland taking huge loans/assistance from the EU, and joining the eurozone. Ireland had a few years of boom, but now faces an extended period of gloom, unprecedented in modern times. A fat lot of good that did them! It's like taking a drug which causes momentary euphoria, followed by a lengthy comedown and depression.

Magister Eckhart
11-14-2010, 12:17 PM
In my view, this was all precipitated by Ireland taking huge loans/assistance from the EU, and joining the eurozone. Ireland had a few years of boom, but now faces an extended period of gloom, unprecedented in modern times. A fat lot of good that did them! It's like taking a drug which causes momentary euphoria, followed by a lengthy comedown and depression.


The Celtic Tiger could never live fed on the rotten fruit of the European Union. Beasts of that nature need fresh meat that only dealing with independent, sovereign states can provide.

Oinakos Growion
11-14-2010, 12:41 PM
To be fair one can't say that it was all "EU's fault". The Irish Government played their part in the collapse of a growing economy allowing rampant speculation, rampant corruption at all levels, clientelism, fake statistics and financial results (ala Greece), etc. Specific lobbies within the country didn't allow other sectors to develop either, including a proper development of communication infrastructures, etc (farmers come to mind).
Lots of money in a short period of time+bad management=disaster.
It is only now that the People of Ireland realise they had pushed it all a bit too far when things were going fine but, then again, the government said there was no risk at all, right? ...

Loki
11-14-2010, 12:48 PM
To be fair one can't say that it was all "EU's fault". The Irish Government played their part in the collapse of a growing economy allowing rampant speculation, rampant corruption at all levels, clientelism, etc. Specific lobbies within the country didn't allow other sectors to develop either, including a proper development of communication infrastructures, etc (farmers come to mind).
Lots of money in a short period of time+bad management=disaster.
It is only now that the People of Ireland realise they had pushed it all a bit too far when things were going fine, but then again, the government said there was no risk at all, right? ...

Indeed, governmental incompetence. I have noticed that in modern times, governments seem to only care about the here and now, and have limited insight into the future. They do not prepare for it, or take the future into consideration when making policy changes. It's all about instant gratification. And that in itself is a legacy of the modern consumerist human mindset. I want a new LCD TV now, so I will take out a loan to buy it, and care about paying it off later.

Curtis24
11-14-2010, 12:49 PM
so its never possibly the fault of the people? :p

Oinakos Growion
11-14-2010, 12:53 PM
Yep. The case of Ireland is particularly sad because it had it all to really become a success story: a stable solid economy and prosperous country for centuries to come, yet... Greed, (very) bad decisions and a complex mix of "complications" (including misinformation among the population) sent it all to hell.
It's back to start now! And it's going to be tough.

Loki
11-14-2010, 12:53 PM
so its never possibly the fault of the people? :p

Of course. It's people who become politicians. As I said, the modern human consumerist mindset. It cuts across class, intelligence and wealth. And it's the fault of the people that they haven't set into power, democratically, a leadership that is actually responsible. Do such people exist?

Magister Eckhart
11-14-2010, 12:53 PM
so its never possibly the fault of the people? :p

Well they were stupid enough to throw out Cumann na nGaedheal and bring in DeValera and his band of Merry Miscreants, so it has some precedence.

Vasconcelos
11-14-2010, 01:06 PM
Problem is that sometimes there is no real political alternative. I suppose that Portugal and Ireland are now in the same basket (altho I suppose my country's issues aren't as nasty as Ireland's, at least when it comes to Yields).

Here you either pick the Socialists or the Social Democrats - centre-left and centre-right respectively - because the others really have no sense, especially the leftist parties behave like childish brats asking for more money and rejecting to pay our debts (isn't that "stealing"?). Problem is that, altho theorectically different from each other, in practice both PS and PSD are similar, and these parties together amount for over 70% or the voters' choice. The new PSD leader seems to be a hardcore libertarian from an European PoV, which people dislike (the average portuguese is a leftie), but they are willing to try anything different from the current Government that seems to be even slightly feasable. :shrug:

la bombe
11-14-2010, 05:08 PM
Problem is that sometimes there is no real political alternative. I suppose that Portugal and Ireland are now in the same basket (altho I suppose my country's issues aren't as nasty as Ireland's, at least when it comes to Yields). :

It's the same in the US too. I think most modern political parties are really two sides of the same coin, you won't see many real viable candidates who err too far from the mainstream status quo (whatever they may be in each individual country).

Great Dane
11-15-2010, 03:12 AM
Is it just the Irish who are leaving or are the immigrants who arrived in Ireland during the boom also leaving?

Bloodeagle
11-15-2010, 06:18 AM
Looks like history is doomed to repeat itself for the Irish. ;)

Sahson
11-15-2010, 06:22 AM
it's time for socialism...

Wyn
11-15-2010, 06:29 AM
it's time for socialism...

Socialist states are not exactly remembered for their success and the wellbeing of their inhabitants.

Sahson
11-15-2010, 06:46 AM
Socialist states are not exactly remembered for their success and the wellbeing of their inhabitants.

Socialism is a generalisation, however it is possible to try and achieve the wellbeing of their inhabitants. I'm pretty sure National socialism, during the 30's in Germany was successful, and helped the German economy.

Goulash communism worked well for Hungary after 1969 in comparison to other eastern bloc countries, and they were more prepared in 1989 then the rest.

also let's not forget the nordic model is also a form of socialism.

Wyn
11-15-2010, 07:00 AM
Socialism is a generalisation

You'll have to explain what you mean by "socialism", then, because the two forms of socialism you mentioned (National Socialism and Goulash communism) are somewhat famously considered to be the most non-socialist or least-socialist forms of socialism (as is of course actually implied with the term 'Goulash'). Many socialists and non-socialists alike would claim outright that Goulash and NS were not actual forms of socialism precisely because of the models they worked through.


also let's not forget the nordic model is also a form of socialism.

I'll have to reiterate on all fronts what I said above.

Also, if you could explain how Ireland could become 'more' socialist and how that would benefit them (in line with your definition of socialism).

SwordoftheVistula
11-15-2010, 07:04 AM
I'm pretty sure National socialism, during the 30's in Germany was successful, and helped the German economy.

That was due to monetary policy reform and a refusal to pay the national debt. They ended up abandoning most of the 'socialist' points of 'national socialism' in the face of reality.


also let's not forget the nordic model is also a form of socialism.

They're still more capitalist than most of the world outside northern Europe & former British colonies, plus having the benefit of natural resources.

Sahson
11-15-2010, 07:09 AM
You'll have to explain what you mean by "socialism", then, because the two forms of socialism you mentioned (National Socialism and Goulash communism) are somewhat famously considered to be the most non-socialist or least-socialist forms of socialism (as is of course actually implied with the term 'Goulash').

Well I meant any kind of form of Socialism, even if it's a moderate form of socialist economics. I never meant pure socialism. But I was definitely thinking more of Market socialism, where the economy is more regulated and less capitalistic/Lasséz-faire.

Loki
11-15-2010, 09:26 PM
Ireland told: Take EU bailout or trigger crisis

Dublin warned it has 24 hours to make decision as EU emergency talks loom amid fears Irish banks' contagion may spread to other eurozone countries

An increasingly isolated Irish government was coming under mounting pressure tonight to seek a European or International Monetary Fund bailout within 24 hours amid fears that contagion from its crippled banking sector might spread through the weaker eurozone countries.

Portugal, Spain, the European Central Bank and opposition parties all urged Brian Cowen's coalition government to remove the threat of a second crisis in six months by putting a firewall between Ireland and its partners in the 16-nation single currency.

With finance ministers from the eurozone due to hold emergency talks tomorrow night, financial markets were expecting Dublin to finalise negotiations with the EU over the terms of a deal to allow Ireland to rescue banks laid low by the collapse of the country's construction boom.

"The Irish problem is spreading, but it could get more volatile," said Ashok Shah, chief investment officer at London Capital, a fund management firm. "They have to get this bailout, they have a period of time before it gets impossible, before nasty things happen. The longer they leave it, the more difficult it will get."

Portugal has seen its borrowing costs rocket along with Ireland's as speculation has grown that it too may have to consider a bailout. Its finance minister, Fernando Teixeira dos Santos, told the Wall Street Journal his country had been hit by a contagion effect caused by fears about Ireland's ability to pay its debts.

"I would not want to lecture the Irish government on that," he said. "I want to believe they will decide to do what is most appropriate for Ireland and the euro. I want to believe they have the vision to take the right decision.

The Bank of Spain governor, Miguel Ángel Fernández Ordóñez, a member of the European Central Bank's governing council, told a banking conference in Madrid he expected an "appropriate reaction" by Ireland to calm the markets. He later told reporters: "The situation in the markets has been negative due in some part to the lack of a decision by Ireland. It's not up to me to make a decision on Ireland, it's Ireland that should take the decision at the right moment." Ewald Nowotny, another ECB governing council member, said in a radio interview the EU wanted a "quick, good solution to Ireland, so that there will be no spillover" to other heavily indebted countries such as Portugal and Spain.

Weekend reports that Ireland was holding bailout talks with the EU helped ease pressure on Irish borrowing costs today, with the yield on benchmark 10-year Irish bonds easing to 8.1% from a peak of over 9% last week. The premium that investors demand to hold Irish 10-year bonds over benchmark German bunds (known as the spread) also fell to 545 basis points, down from a record 652 basis points last Thursday.

Analysts warned, however, that the selling would quickly resume if Ireland tried to go it alone. "The expectation of a bailout for Ireland helped its spreads to recover from last week's capitulation," said Gavan Nolan, a credit analyst at Markit. "It's good to talk." Despite Ireland's insistence that it doesn't need to be rescued, investors say the country needs support, given the fragility of its moribund banking system, and the high borrowing costs limiting the capacity of companies to raise funds.

Ireland's Europe minister, Dick Roche, said rumours that it was on the verge of seeking a bailout could be "very, very dangerous".

He conceded: "There is continuous talk going on backwards and forwards about the level of our debt but the suggestion that that constitutes going to the IMF or the bailout is just irresponsible." Ireland's opposition's finance spokesman, Michael Noonan, said he believed European intervention was "under way" and matters would come to a head within 24 hours. The government, he said, was "fighting a rearguard action for appearances purposes".

Noonan said a bailout could lead to Ireland being suspended from the bond markets for three or four years.

Albion
11-21-2010, 08:18 PM
The Keltic kitten didn't think about saving money for a rainy day, in Britain a great deal of people have the same problem, we've both got the same problem - massive debts and little savings to fall back on.
Hopefully if we all learn something from this it is that as a society we shouldn't be so open to consumerism and instead should actually save some money and stop wasting it on crap.

Breedingvariety
11-22-2010, 09:23 AM
Here you either pick the Socialists or the Social Democrats - centre-left and centre-right respectively - because the others really have no sense, especially the leftist parties behave like childish brats asking for more money and rejecting to pay our debts (isn't that "stealing"?).
Debts should not be paid. Financier swines could do nothing if everybody refused to pay debts. Everybody would become rich if that happened.:writing_thinking:

Fuck you financier swines!:shakefist

Albion
11-22-2010, 08:06 PM
Debts should not be paid. Financier swines could do nothing if everybody refused to pay debts. Everybody would become rich if that happened.:writing_thinking:

Fuck you financier swines!:shakefist

In the grand scheme of things I don't believe that is an option for all debts.

Treffie
11-23-2010, 11:49 AM
Interesting article on the possible exodus (mainly into Britain)


The Celtic Tiger is in intensive care and young people are rushing for the exits. But how will a new exodus of Irish to Britain compare with previous waves of Irish immigration, asks Tom de Castella?

A couple of days before Ireland's politicians meekly agreed to the EU's financial bailout, a gleaming new terminal opened at Dublin airport.

T2 cost 600m euros but with the economy in deep recession and passenger numbers falling, it is being seen as a monument to Ireland's economic collapse.

Ryanair boss Michael O'Leary arrived at the opening in a hearse dressed in an undertaker's outfit and bearing a coffin, while a taxi driver told the Financial Times: "I suppose they're getting it ready for all the young people trying to emigrate."


Link (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-11815001)