Dodecad Ancestry Project

[Pallantides]

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TOAbjajWtcI/AAAAAAAAC40/GmUk005OYlU/s1600/ADMIXTURE10.jpeg

I'm DOD197
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_UOHFTxL-bOA/TN-YZcTltVI/AAAAAAAAAMs/VRLbwNlcMlA/s1600/ADMIXTURE_DOD194%252B197-207.jpeg

[Vasconcelos]

We're all asians. Oh the horror.

[Pallantides]

We're all asians. Oh the horror.

Now how did you come to this conclusion?

[Vasconcelos]

I was just joking with the blue bars :)

[Ibericus]

I was just joking with the blue bars :)
The blue bar is Caucasian, since it peaks in Georgians

[Pallantides]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_UOHFTxL-bOA/TOOXrHM37WI/AAAAAAAAANc/HZu372rvK-A/s1600/ADMIXTURE15.jpeg

[Peasant]

I wonder if the Romanians tested included Roma Gypsies?

[Ibericus]

I wonder if the Romanians tested included Roma Gypsies?
Yes. Two gypsyes were included.

You can see them clearly compared to the other Romanians :
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TNfEVlKDeJI/AAAAAAAAC2s/u09CrY_iOIs/s1600/Romanians.jpg

[Pallantides]

Basque/Dagestan/Siberian components in Europe (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadGxCamF5YjNWTlg2LWJOelRraTBhR lE&hl=en&authkey=CJmd_4oC#gid=0)

Scandinavians
Sample Size: 9

Basque : 15.6
Dagestan : 10.2
Sardinian : 15.4
Siberian : 1.1
East Asian : 0.3
West Asian : 0.5
North European : 56.9


Lithuanians
Sample Size: 10

Basque : 5.9
Dagestan : 2.9
Sardinian : 6.2
Siberian : 0.1
East Asian : 0.7
West Asian : 3.3
North European : 80.9

[Ibericus]

Would be interesting to have Saami and see how much Basque they have...

Spaniards
Sample Size: 12

Basque : 30.7
Dagestan : 4.4
Sardinian : 32.4
Siberian : 0.6
East Asian : 0.1
West Asian : 10.0
North European : 21.8

North Italians

Basque : 17.7
Dagestan : 4.5
Sardinian : 37.3
Siberian : 0.0
East Asian : 0.2
West Asian : 19.3
North European : 21.0

[Pallantides]

I wonder were the other Scandinavians are from?
It all seem a bit odd to me, the low North European score and high Dagestan score.





Is there somewhere were we can see the individual participants admixture values from the latest one wich includes Dagestan?

[Pallantides]

Article about the Dodecad Ancestry Project and the Eurogenes ancestry project from Nature news
http://www.nature.com/news/2010/101215/full/468880a.html

[Pallantides]

I notice that I forgot to post my admixture numbers in this thread

West Asian 9.2
Northwest African 0
South European 17.1
Northeast Asian 0
Southwest Asian 0
East Asian 0
North European 73.7
West African 0
East African 0
South Asian 0

[Aino]

My parents results:

Father
North European 78.2%
South European 9.8%
Northeast Asian 7.9%
West Asian 4.1%
Northwest African 0%
Southwest Asian 0%
East Asian 0%
West African 0%
East African 0%
South Asian 0%

Mother
North European 79.7%
Northeast Asian 6.6%
West Asian 6.4%
South European 5%
East Asian 2.2%
Northwest African 0%
Southwest Asian 0%
West African 0%
East African 0%
South Asian 0%

[Pallantides]

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/01/admixture-analysis-with-dodecad.html
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/7352/admixture10.png

Scandinavian
http://img593.imageshack.us/img593/3783/scandinaviand10.png(I believe I'm nr. 3)

British
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/9260/britishd10.png

Finnish
http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/5504/finnishd10.png

German
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/814/germand10.png

Irish
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/492/irishd10.png

Greek
http://img823.imageshack.us/img823/6879/greekd10.png

Russian
http://img811.imageshack.us/img811/8900/russiand10.png

South Italian and Sicilian
http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/3448/sitaliansiciliand10.png

North Italian
http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/8452/nitaliand10.png

[hereward]

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/01/admixture-analysis-with-dodecad.html
British
http://img145.imageshack.us/img145/9260/britishd10.png

Irish
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/492/irishd10.png



Is there any ancestry information regarding sample 2 from the Brisith population?
He/She not only has N.W & East African components, but also has the joint lowest/lowest south European component and the highest west Asian component by a relative margin. This does not chime with the rest of the British samples nor surrounding samples.
Also, is there any information regarding sample number 6 in the Irish population for He/She has a comparatively high South Asian component, when compared to Irish and British Samples etc.?
Does this individual have Romany ancestry?

[NordicPower]

You have to take anything Dienekes writes with a grain of salt, or the whole shaker...

http://medicineworld.org/images/blogs/11-2009/salt-shaker-10821.jpg

:rolleyes:

[Ibericus]

Is there any ancestry information regarding sample 2 from the Brisith population?
He/She not only has N.W & East African components, but also has the joint lowest/lowest south European component and the highest west Asian component by a relative margin. This does not chime with the rest of the British samples nor surrounding samples.
Also, is there any information regarding sample number 6 in the Irish population for He/She has a comparatively high South Asian component, when compared to Irish and British Samples etc.?
Does this individual have Romany ancestry?
No, they are all natives. But these levels have nothing to do with recent admixture, take in acocunt if they were mixed they woulnd't look so similar to the other Brits, they woulnd't have as much north-european etc. And the sample is too small to say they are outliers..Also, small levels of south-asian are not rare, some french or scandinavians have it also.

[Pallantides]

What needs to be truly taken with a grain of salt is the german brand of "nordic power":p;)

Either way, here is the admixture of some sample populations:

Lithuanians
http://img607.imageshack.us/img607/9396/lithuanians10.png

French
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/6669/french10.png

French Basque
http://img573.imageshack.us/img573/5622/frenchbasque10.png

Cypriots
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/6144/cypriots10.png

Sardinians
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/3615/sardinian10.png

North Italians
http://img138.imageshack.us/img138/2847/northitalian10.png

Belorussians
http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/4155/belorussian10.png

Spaniards
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/1599/spaniards10.png

[Osweo]

Is there a Berber sample to compare with the Sardinian sample?

(You know, to shut up mouthy e-arseholes from Provence... ;))

[Pallantides]

Is there a Berber sample to compare with the Sardinian sample?

(You know, to shut up mouthy e-arseholes from Provence... ;))
Here is a Berber sample.


Mozabite:
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/3681/mozabite10.png

[Vasconcelos]

Is there a Berber sample to compare with the Sardinian sample?

(You know, to shut up mouthy e-arseholes from Provence... ;))

Berbers can vary a lot, right? I'd love to see how europoid-looking berbers "score" on these, notably the Riffians. I suppose they are closer to the original north african peoples than, say, the more negroid looking north africans.

[Osweo]

Here is a Berber sample.
Mozabite:
http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/3681/mozabite10.png

Ah sorry, yes, I just noticed the Mozabite on the first post. I mixed it up with Biblical Moabite, but now I see that it's northern inland Algerians;

The Mozabite people are a Berber ethnic group living in M'zab in the northern Sahara. They speak Tumzabt. Most of them are Ibadi Muslims. Nearly all of them read and write Arabic, though they use the Zenata dialect of the Berber language, for which they have no surviving written form.

Mozabites live in five oases, namely, Ghardaia, Beni-Isguen, El-Ateuf, Melika and Bounoura and two other isolated oases farther north, Berriane and Guerrara.

:thumb001:

[Pallantides]

nr. 20 and 26 seem to have very recent negroid admixture too.


There are two indviduals with obvious gypsy ancestry in the Romanian sample:
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/8545/romanians10.png

[Pallantides]

A couple of more samples


White Utahns
http://img3.imageshack.us/img3/9693/whiteutahns10.png

Tuscan
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/2470/tuscans10.png

Chuvash
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/9859/chuvashs10.png

Turks
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/4569/turks10.png

Georgians
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/2152/georgians10.png

Egyptians
http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/5619/egyptans10.png

Pathan
http://img209.imageshack.us/img209/7686/pathan10.png

Burusho
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/9930/burusho10.png

Uyghur
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/8875/uygur10.png

Chinese
http://img820.imageshack.us/img820/7950/chinese10.png

[hereward]

Curiosity compelled me to ask
With regards to the British sample; I had noticed levels of S.W Asian, East Asian etc, across various Euro Samples, it does not seem strange. What is strange is the lack of N.W African in conjunction with East African in samples which are population wise similar to the British. If these components (especially when combined as with this individual) are ancient within the population, then I will expect to see this particular component breakdown frequently repeated in future sampling. Maybe this could be down to the make up of a particular area of Britain, though I cannot help but doubt this view, owing to the massive internal migration of people within Britain since the Industrial Revolution. I suppose my curiosity will not be abated until I have witnessed more samples.
I mentioned the Irish sample for two reasons. Though the individual’s S.Asian component is relatively low, when it is compared to the other Irish participants, it visually seems to be higher by more than a few multiples. My second reason comes from experience; in the British Y-Dna project, there is an individual who is H1a positive, owing to my small knowledge I also found this curious. In that particular case I was right to be, as the individual turned out to be a Self reported Gypsy, who is running is own project with regard to the spread of that Haplogroup amongst the Gypsy population of Europe.
As the Gypsy population in the British Isles is HIGHLY admixed already, an individual of ‘part Gypsy ancestry’ would not need to have a large S. Asian component, the like of which is evidenced in the more homogenous ‘Romanian Gypsy population’.
Again, I had to ask because I am curious; such a disposition, whether warranted or not, helps one to learn, especially when one turns out to be wrong. :shrug:

[Pallantides]

Saudis
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/6615/saudis10.png

Adygei
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/756/adygei10.png

Lezgin
http://img713.imageshack.us/img713/699/lezgins10.png

Ashkenazi Jews
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/8077/ashkenazyjews10.png

Sephardic Jews
http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/1792/sephardicjews10.png

Jordanians
http://img211.imageshack.us/img211/857/jordanians10.png

Sindhi
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/393/sindhi10.png

Yakut
http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/8499/yakut10.png

Ethiopians
http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/5990/ethiopians10.png

Yoruba
http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/9701/yoruba10.png

[Ibericus]

In percentages :

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDRCd0dva0dwTzc3a0JicjZmRE96b Gc&hl=en&authkey=CPGxtqQM

[Albion]

Wow, the Chuvash, Chinese and Yoruba samples are interesting, the latter two appear to be very "pure" and lacking many mixes and the Chuvash appear to have a large North Asian input - Mongols or Ugrians?

[StonyArabia]

Berbers can vary a lot, right? I'd love to see how europoid-looking berbers "score" on these, notably the Riffians. I suppose they are closer to the original north african peoples than, say, the more negroid looking north africans.

Yes Berbers varery a lot. The Riffians and Kabyles would score probably similar to the Mozabite but their Southern European component will be much higher, due to the history of the region with minor SSA lineages probably. However you probably also find that the majority of them having 100% NorthWest African component, like many of the Mozabites. The Mozabites also look Europid but not European, unlike some of the Riffians and Kabyles who at times look European Europids, though they are exaggerated most often. Probably due to assimilation of Muslim Moriscos.

[Rostislav]

Do you have Polish sample ?

[Osweo]

the Chuvash appear to have a large North Asian input - Mongols or Ugrians?

Chuvash are Turkic speakers. They descend from the core population of the Volga-Bulgar Kingdom, with some assimilated Finnic locals. The North Asian will mostly be from the Huns and Turks, and perhaps a few Sarmatians.

[Albion]

Chuvash are Turkic speakers. They descend from the core population of the Volga-Bulgar Kingdom, with some assimilated Finnic locals. The North Asian will mostly be from the Huns and Turks, and perhaps a few Sarmatians.

Yeah, I thought something was wrong since I was thinking they were meant to be European converts to Islam, then I remembered that's the Chechens :rolleyes: (Yeah, a silly mistake that :p)

[Agrippa]

Are there samples from Hungarians, Czechs, Slovaks, Austrians and Swiss already?

Southern Slavs?

[Ibericus]

Are there samples from Hungarians, Czechs, Slovaks, Austrians and Swiss already?

Southern Slavs?
Yes, there are hungarians here, though the clustering names are a lil bit different:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TMKkCxSdsCI/AAAAAAAACwI/CPXiAI8SLZY/s1600/WEST_EURASIAN_ALL_10.png

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TMFfrPxV0DI/AAAAAAAACv4/bHeJVNRC-Ko/s1600/PEOPLE_EADC9.png

[Agrippa]

Yes, there are hungarians here, though the clustering names are a lil bit different:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TMKkCxSdsCI/AAAAAAAACwI/CPXiAI8SLZY/s1600/WEST_EURASIAN_ALL_10.png

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TMFfrPxV0DI/AAAAAAAACv4/bHeJVNRC-Ko/s1600/PEOPLE_EADC9.png

Thanks, I knew the first, not the second. I'm particularly curious about a sample compared the same way as those above and with individualised results :)

[Beorn]

DD420

West Asian: 9.8
NW African: 0
South European: 29.1
NE Asian: 0
SW Asian: 0
East Asian: 0
Northern European: 60.3
West African: 0
East African: 0
South Asian: 0.8

No pictures as of yet.

[Loki]

I'm not sure if I'm eligible for this:



Open-ended submission opportunity for 23andMe data (#2)
Who is eligible

Everyone who is of European, Asian, or North African ancestry and all four of his/her grandparents are from the same European, Asian, or North African ethnic group or the same European, Asian, or North African country.


All four my grandparents are from one ethnic group, Afrikaners - but does that just count as colonial as in American, Canadian or Australian? I guess so.

[Beorn]

I'm not sure if I'm eligible for this:



All four my grandparents are from one ethnic group, Afrikaners - but does that just count as colonial as in American, Canadian or Australian? I guess so.

Where is it the Afrikaners come from? I'd say the name is not as important as the ultimate population you spring from.

[Graham]

DD420

West Asian: 9.8
NW African: 0
South European: 29.1
NE Asian: 0
SW Asian: 0
East Asian: 0
Northern European: 60.3
West African: 0
East African: 0
South Asian: 0.8

No pictures as of yet.
West Asian:8.7
NW African: 0
South European:27.1
NE Asian: 0
SW Asian: 0
East Asian: 0
Northern European: 63.5
West African: 0
East African: 0
South Asian: 0.7

You're close to mine, so it must be average. Haven't seen much to compare.

[Loki]

Where is it the Afrikaners come from? I'd say the name is not as important as the ultimate population you spring from.

Well that's the thing, Afrikaners are considered an ethnic group, but too new a one ... not one of the stabilized groups. It is barely a few hundred years old. So no, I wouldn't qualify.

As to your question, mainly from Dutch and Germans.

[Beorn]

Well that's the thing, Afrikaners are considered an ethnic group, but too new a one ... not one of the stabilized groups. It is barely a few hundred years old. So no, I wouldn't qualify.

As to your question, mainly from Dutch and Germans.

Okay, but the fact remains you still belong to the European people. Surprising results aside, you can only submit yourself and expect a pleasant denial. :)

[Loki]

Okay, but the fact remains you still belong to the European people. Surprising results aside, you can only submit yourself and expect a pleasant denial. :)

Yes but you see ... if someone had like a German father and Dutch mother, they wouldn't qualify. So why would I? I'm essentially something like that.

[Beorn]

Yes but you see ... if someone had like a German father and Dutch mother, they wouldn't qualify. So why would I? I'm essentially something like that.

Dutch and German. Ice and snow. Who knows till you submit your results?

He is closing up shop soon, or so he seems to be hinting at, so get in there regardless of your primary considerations. :thumb001:

[Osweo]

Loki, just lie and say you're from Cleves. ;)

[Pallantides]

I'll just post my admixture score again for comparison

West Asian 9.2
Northwest African 0
South European 17.1
Northeast Asian 0
Southwest Asian 0
East Asian 0
North European 73.7
West African 0
East African 0
South Asian 0


evon(West Norwegian)

West Asian 6,8
Northwest African 0
South European 23
Northeast Asian 0
Southwest Asian 0
East Asian 0,8
North European 69,4
West African 0
East African 0
South Asian 0

[Loki]

I was told:



While your ancestry does not fit the submission criteria, it sounds interesting, so I will include your data in the Project.

[Franz]

The Dutch are Germans but not the converse. He probably has very few or no pure Dutch samples. It's good to see you got in the project before the submission opportunity ended. After the submissions end, he'll start on the other phases of the project.

[Franz]

Clusters Galore with Dodecad populations


Here is a spreadsheet (https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadG9sbWEySmdBUDZmaWU1Wnh0QnhvT 0E&hl=en&authkey=CIS7wcsI) of Clusters Galore analysis with Dodecad populations: 692 reference individuals + 261 Dodecad Project participants from 24 different populations with at least 5 members each:
Assyrian, Scandinavian, Greek, Finnish, S_Italian_Sicilian, Ashkenazi, German, Indian, Portuguese, Armenian, Russian, Spanish, British, Irish, Turkish, N_Italian, Balkans, Iranian, North_African, East_African, French, Chinese, Japanese, PolishAs a reminder to new readers, the Clusters Galore technique consists of applying multidimensional scaling on genomic data to convert ~152,000 SNPs into a number of continuous dimensions capturing most of the variation, followed by employment of MCLUST (http://www.stat.washington.edu/mclust/) to cluster individuals along these dimensions.

In total, 65 clusters were obtained when 10 MDS dimensions were retained.


Some observations:


Most Greeks and all South Italians/Sicilians continue to fall in the same cluster #4. The fact that the latter population, despite being one of the largest (20 individuals) continues to remain unsplit and distinctive testifies to the fact that it is probably homogeneous and lacks substantial regional inbreeding within it.
Cluster #2 includes most Germanic individuals and also the Irish
Cluster #5 is made mostly of Central/North Italians
Non-Greek Balkan participants fall mostly in cluster #6, which also includes the non-Gypsy admixed reference Romanians
Project and reference Iberians (Spaniards and Portuguese) continue to be undifferentiated and distinctive, falling in cluster #14; my comments on South Italians/Sicilians also probably apply to them as well.
There is a trace of structure in the Ashkenazi population, which is split into two clusters. This probably underscores the benefits of large samples in the inference of structure, as 25 Ashkenazi Jews have submitted their results to the Project.
Project Russians have split affiliations between a circum-Baltic cluster #3 and the Finnish cluster #7.
North Africans form two new clusters that do no overlap with either reference Mozabites or Egyptians. There is great variety in North Africa, and the 8 people who have submitted their samples are a good start to learning about this region of the world.
The Chinese are split into two, one part aligning with the "southern" Miaozu and one part aligning with the "northern" Japanese.

Please do not ask me which cluster you fall in, as there will be a separate analysis of Project participants identified by their DOD number but without ethnic identifiers, in compliance with the Project's privacy policy.
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http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/02/clusters-galore-with-dodecad.html

Cluster 2 appears “Germanic or Celto-Germanic”. All the Irish fell into it. Ten out of 11 Germans and 16 of 17 Brits were in it. The other one German was in the French cluster. The other one Brit fell into cluster 6 that includes eight of 10 from the Balkans and 14 of 16 Romanians. Some French are in cluster 2. Twelve out of the 19 Scandinavians were in cluster 2. The other seven fell into cluster 3 “circum-Baltic”. Cluster 3 includes all the Lithuanians, Belorussians, and five out of six Poles. Pallantides is probably in cluster 3. There are four Russians in the Finn cluster. The other eight Russians are in cluster 3. I would expect Southern Swedes or most to be in cluster 2. One Finn made it in cluster 3 likely a Fennoswede. The Portuguese and Spaniards fall into the same cluster along with one Northern Italian and two French.

Most of the Armenians are in cluster 15. This includes all eight Dodecad samples and 15 of 19 from (a) dataset(s). Eight of nine Assyrians are in cluster 15 along with two Turks and one Syrian. The Assyrians are similar to the Armenians. Sixteen of 21 Turks are in cluster 18 along with one Armenian and one Syrian. Sixteen of 20 Georgians are in cluster 31 with no one else. All Lezgians are in cluster 30 with three Georgians and 11 of 17 Adyghe. All Iranians are in cluster 19 with one Turk.

Although the IDs go up to DOD448, the Dodecad samples tally up to 261 for the 65 cluster analysis. Those that are ethnically mixed weren’t included.

[Pallantides]

Clusters Galore, K=65, 36 reference populations (692 individuals) + 24 Dodecad populations (261 individuals)
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?authkey=CO355tgB&hl=en&key=tAN-lrJJ1U3kjtpzvX3DgHw&hl=en&authkey=CO355tgB#gid=0

I'm DOD197, on this one I appear to be in cluster 7.


Post by Fanty from the Dodecad blog

The ones who typed in their heritage in the Anchestry thread:

5 Germans (with a Tendency for Eastgermans or Prussians from the now lost "Eastern Terretories" (Silesia etc)

1 German/Polish/Belorussian
1 German/Serbian/Slovako
1 American with mainly German and English heritage.

2 Slovenians
2 Norse

1 Irish

Also:
Some people who belong to 2 or more Clusters are in this cluster combined with the White Utahns Cluster.

1 Norse, 1 British and one German or so and Cluster 12 and 7 at the same time.

No other multiclustering of Cluster 7.

There are also two White Uthan samples in the cluster.

[Franz]

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/02/clusters-galore-results-k63-for-dodecad.html

He included more Dodecad samples 410 of 449 compared to the last one that had 261 Dodecad samples. This analysis showed IDs including the ethnically mixed but not Dodecad samples grouped by populations with no IDs like the last run.

This part looks interesting.


I plan to explore fine-scale structure of Dodecad Project members further, especially of those who belong to large, undifferentiated clusters that may harbor latent informative structure.
Clusters Galore, K=65, 36 reference populations (692 individuals) + 24 Dodecad populations (261 individuals)
https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?authkey=CO355tgB&hl=en&key=tAN-lrJJ1U3kjtpzvX3DgHw&hl=en&authkey=CO355tgB#gid=0

I'm DOD197, on this one I appear to be in cluster 7.


Post by Fanty from the Dodecad blog


There are also two White Uthan samples in the cluster.

That spreadsheet was from January and the samples went up to DOD307. The Irish looks out of place if comparing to the latest run, but I haven't looked at the IDs to verify.

[Pallantides]

On that one I'm in cluster 25

[Pallantides]

The single largest cluster is #3 which is mostly "British Isles"
Cluster #26 encompasses most Greek/South Italian/Sicilian individuals; not how this is not represented in the reference populations, which lack such individuals
Cluster #23, also absent in the reference populations encompasses mainly Finns and some Russians
Cluster #25 is also quite large, consisting of 42 Project members and only 2 reference White Utahns. This consists largely of North/Central Europeans from continental Europe.
Cluster #4 includes mainly Iberians
Cluster #11 mainly Ashkenazi Jews
Cluster #15 mainly Turks
Cluster #16 mainly people from the Balkans
Cluster #27 mainly North-Central Italians not in #26 (the Greco-Italian cluster)

[Loki]

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/02/clusters-galore-results-k63-for-dodecad.html

I fall 69% into cluster 3, which Dienekes says is "British Isles", and 29% into cluster 24, that I see is "French" in the bottom legend.

[Grumpy Cat]

How did you figure out which one you were? I sent an e-mail with my raw data but never got a reply.

[Loki]

How did you figure out which one you were? I sent an e-mail with my raw data but never got a reply.

He will email you back and tell you your ID ... maybe you should send him a reminder?

[Franz]

If one looks at the Fst distances of ancestral components of North European, South European and West Asian, the differences are about the same to each other. If going by that, calling one component such as North European as Paleolithic and another Neolithic makes absolutely no sense. There are some absurd things people say about the components.

By the way, Karl is in the cluster with the Lithuanians. Going by that, he looks “Baltic”. It's not surprising.

[drgs]

I'm 100% Cluster 22 (DOD365)

[Pallantides]

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/03/celto-germans-vs-balto-slavs.html

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-x-Fra8_Hp4s/TXJNPaDWsTI/AAAAAAAADOw/ehEKHlSMDls/s1600/MDS.png
I have no idea wich of the Scandinavians I am.

[Äike]

By the way, Karl is in the cluster with the Lithuanians. Going by that, he looks “Baltic”. It's not surprising.

You do not know how I look like and there's nothing Baltic about southern-Finnics. Look at the Y-DNA of the Lithuanians, they're so heavily Finnic(opposite of Baltic), that only the Finns have more N1c1.

It is possible to draw parallels with the Balkan area. Most of them are Slavic, but genetically, they're not that Slavic at all. The same applies to Lithuanians, the native Finnic (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/European_Middle_Neolithic.gif/800px-European_Middle_Neolithic.gif) blood still runs in their veins.

I am slowly getting fed up with people making assumptions without looking at 5000 years of history. What's next? Germans are actually Italian, because of the Germanic presence to Northern-Italy?

Practically saying, if the sample population would be Estonian, then the Lithuanians would score high Estonian scores and everyone would be saying that they're "Finnic", not "Baltic". The naivety of some people is remarkable. Lithuanians are one of the most "Finnic" people in Europe, after the Finns.

[Pallantides]

Franco-Russian anthropologist Deniker divided the light-pigmented Northern Europeans into a race nordique and a race orientale. So, it is a bit surprising to see that a basic division of northern Europeans into East and West has stood the test of time.

I'm not sure if Deniker would label me as "Nordique"

[Franz]

You do not know how I look like [...]

I do.


Look at the Y-DNA of the Lithuanians, they're so heavily Finnic(opposite of Baltic), that only the Finns have more N1c1.Finns have detectable admixture from Central Siberians and Nganasans. Of the Nganasans, 92.1% had marker P43 which included 38 samples from Karafet et al. 2002. Finland’s population is very small even more so in the past so a drastic change in Y-DNA was so much more susceptible. So many people neglect that! Some studies aren’t very representable of the entire populations. Y-DNA doesn’t give the entire picture of migrations. The high presence of M178 and P298 is interesting. Those N1c1 bearers could have become progressively more Caucasoid/West Eurasian over time in terms of autosomal level before settling in parts of Europe. There are too many possibilities and factors. As for R1b in the West or other haplogroups in other areas, you need to consider things like polygamy, warfare, heightened or diminished male fertility in certain subclades or whatever. Newcomers may have become the rulers by force.

Imagine a model where a few individuals from a highly cultured warlike tribe slaughtered 1000s of more primitive men. This would result in a dramatic difference of gender ratio of the indigenous population. Then, the successful warlike men would mate with the indigenous women most likely multiple women and prettier ones at that leaving the uglier ones to the losing men causing the Y-DNA ratio to change over time in an exponential fashion in the resulting population. It could be quick and large in scope. In other situations, the demographic change in Y-DNA proportions could take longer.

Imagine IE nobility taking wives in some population of much greater size. Over time, the autosomal DNA of the IE would become diminished and diluted even if each IE male was taking more wives than each of the other population’s males. This would be due to their smaller initial population being outnumbered relative to the other population. The Y-DNA proportion of the IE’s paternal lineage would increase but not the autosomal DNA. There are all kinds different scenarios.

Also spermatogenic ability is different among males in different Y chromosome lineages: http://www.springerlink.com/content/amx117kh5vgrw2yt/

When full genome sequencing is done, we’ll be able to see how the haplogroups/haplotypes are related among each other on a better scale. Using Y-STRs are too noisy.


It is possible to draw parallels with the Balkan area. Most of them are Slavic, but genetically, they're not that Slavic at all. The same applies to Lithuanians, the native Finnic (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/European_Middle_Neolithic.gif/800px-European_Middle_Neolithic.gif) blood still runs in their veins.Culture and language don’t necessarily correlate with genetics.


I am slowly getting fed up with people making assumptions without looking at 5000 years of history. What's next? Germans are actually Italian, because of the Germanic presence to Northern-Italy?What isn’t possible to draw parallels? There was some interaction, but Germans are very distinct today from Italians. This is due to the mountains of the Alps. In fact, the isolated genetic barrier between Germans and Italians is one of the most distinct in Europe. With absolute certainty, can you tell me what happened 5,000 years ago?


Practically saying, if the sample population would be Estonian, then the Lithuanians would score high Estonian scores and everyone would be saying that they're "Finnic", not "Baltic". The naivety of some people is remarkable. Lithuanians are one of the most "Finnic" people in Europe, after the Finns.How are Lithuanians the second most Finnic? By both projects with certain parameters, you don’t genetically cluster with Scandinavians/Nordics (i.e., Swedes and Norwegians) nor Finnish. You’re making speculations, and it appears you’re deriving it from the North European component when that component encompasses several subset elements.

Scandinavians share some of their ancestry with Germans/Brits and some ancestry with Baltics. Balts are more similar with Slavs though. Your allele sharing distance is closer to some Poles including Polako and Russians than all the Finns on his project.

[Polako]

I'm not sure if Deniker would label me as "Nordique"

Dienekes is a bit of a fruitcake when it comes to these things.

Neither MDS plots, nor pairwise individual distances, like ASD or IBS, can say who's "nordique" and who isn't. I bet some of those Lithuanians in the far top left of his new plot are pretty damn "nordique".

There are three different issues that need to be considered separately, and not lumped together...

a) PCA-MDS clusters and distances deal with broad ancestry, and are basically used to separate breeding, ethnic and linguistic groups.

b) Pairwise distances show who we're most similar to in terms of overall genetic structure, and people who are top of our lists need not be in the same intra-European clusters on various plots or in other cluster comparisons. For example, three Belorussians in my dataset are always in the to ten of most Scandinavians out of 2000 people based on 250K to 500K SNPs, but they're always far from them on intra-North Euro plots.

c) Genetic, epigenetic and environmental factors that affect phenotype. These will often show correlation with a) and/or b), but not necessarily.

[Pallantides]

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/03/clusters-galore-results-k73-for-dodecad.html
I'm in cluster 21 along with most Scandinavians


Cluster #2 is by far the largest, consisting of mainly of "British Isles"/American White types of people; this grew substantially because of the recent open submission call when many people of this type of ancestry joined
Cluster #3 is essentially Ashkenazi Jewish, another big group in the Project
Cluster #5 is not represented in the reference populations except for a single Utah White. This is largely German.
Cluster #6 is mostly (but not exclusively) French.
Cluster #9 is largely Finnish and also includes some East Slavs.
Cluster #12 is essentially South Italian/Sicilian/Greek
Cluster #14 is mostly Assyrian/Armenian
Cluster #16 is mostly Balkan
Cluster #21 is mostly Scandinavian
Cluster #27 is mainly Balto-Slavic
Cluster #29 is essentially Iberian

[Loki]

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/03/clusters-galore-results-k73-for-dodecad.html
I'm in cluster 21 along with most Scandinavians

I cluster 100% in cluster 6 - which is French, apparently (most French fall into this cluster). I see 4 White Utahns also fall into 6.



Cluster #6 is mostly (but not exclusively) French.


Once again, it is disappointing that no sample population for Germans exist. This is a huge shortcoming in such detailed European analysis.

[Franz]

I cluster 100% in cluster 6 - which is French, apparently (most French fall into this cluster). I see 4 White Utahns also fall into 6.



Once again, it is disappointing that no sample population for Germans exist. This is a huge shortcoming in such detailed European analysis.


I also notice some Germans including a Swiss German in the French cluster, too. :)

The last submission opportunity was open to everyone, and the number of samples in the British cluster went from 77 to 137. This was due to the large of influx of American samples which appears to be mostly of British ancestry. For the last results, you had a larger probability of being in the British cluster than the French one.

[Pallantides]

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/04/your-nearest-ibs-neighbors-up-to-dod603.html

"Your nearest neighbor is 0.11 standard deviations closer to you than for the average project participant"
RANK ID IBS
V173 "1" "DOD197" "1"
V609 "2" "Belorussian" "0.750735"
V451 "3" "DOD488" "0.750395"
V43 "4" "DOD041" "0.750304"
V606 "5" "Lithuanians" "0.750292"
V579 "6" "CEU25" "0.750084"
V81 "7" "DOD087" "0.750047"
V510 "8" "DOD550" "0.750034"
V514 "9" "DOD554" "0.750009"
V450 "10" "DOD487" "0.749959" (61% German, 25% Rusyn / Ruthenian, 12.5% Polish, 1.5% Ulster Scot)
V600 "11" "Lithuanians" "0.74995"
V245 "12" "DOD274" "0.749943"
V459 "13" "DOD497" "0.749919" (maternally French, Dutch, and English; paternally German and Scandinavian)
V277 "14" "DOD306" "0.749873" (West Norwegian)
V518 "15" "DOD558" "0.749844"
V364 "16" "DOD397" "0.749792" (Irish)
V546 "17" "DOD586" "0.749751"
V541 "18" "DOD581" "0.749742"
V447 "19" "DOD484" "0.749739"
V1 "20" "CAA001" "0.749729"


I wonder what 'CAA' stands for?

[Loki]

My nearest neighbours:

"Your nearest neighbor is 0.42 standard deviations closer to you than for the average project participant"

RANK ID IBS

V406 "1" "DOD442" "1"
V609 "2" "Belorussian" "0.752374"
V459 "3" "DOD497" "0.749844" (Her ancestry is maternally French, Dutch, and English; paternally German and Scandinavian)
V434 "4" "DOD471" "0.749394"
V436 "5" "DOD473" "0.749236" (100% Lithuanian.)
V214 "6" "DOD242" "0.74904"
V573 "7" "CEU25" "0.748946"
V291 "8" "DOD321" "0.748912"
V641 "9" "French" "0.748771"
V473 "10" "DOD512" "0.748688"
V490 "11" "DOD530" "0.748659" (Paternal Side: ~90% Scots/Irish, rest German & Dutch. Maternal Side: ~60% Scots/Irish, 20% English, rest Huguenot & German)
V433 "12" "DOD470" "0.748654" (French-Canadian, Irish, German, English, with possibly some Nordic. The German may be all northern German.)
V404 "13" "DOD440" "0.748538" (I am 100% French since the 16th century.)
V486 "14" "DOD526" "0.748505" (Irish, French, Dutch, English, Scottish, German, Swedish, and not sure what else.)
V569 "15" "KIM001" "0.748416"
V246 "16" "DOD275" "0.748374"
V431 "17" "DOD468" "0.748321"
V175 "18" "DOD199" "0.748289"
V519 "19" "DOD559" "0.748269"
V284 "20" "DOD314" "0.748266"

[Pallantides]

That V09 Belorussian... he seem to be many peoples "2" match:confused:

[Agrippa]

My nearest neighbours:

"Your nearest neighbor is 0.42 standard deviations closer to you than for the average project participant"

RANK ID IBS

V406 "1" "DOD442" "1"
V609 "2" "Belorussian" "0.752374"
V459 "3" "DOD497" "0.749844"
V434 "4" "DOD471" "0.749394"
V436 "5" "DOD473" "0.749236"
V214 "6" "DOD242" "0.74904"
V573 "7" "CEU25" "0.748946"
V291 "8" "DOD321" "0.748912"
V641 "9" "French" "0.748771"
V473 "10" "DOD512" "0.748688"
V490 "11" "DOD530" "0.748659"
V433 "12" "DOD470" "0.748654"
V404 "13" "DOD440" "0.748538"
V486 "14" "DOD526" "0.748505"
V569 "15" "KIM001" "0.748416"
V246 "16" "DOD275" "0.748374"
V431 "17" "DOD468" "0.748321"
V175 "18" "DOD199" "0.748289"
V519 "19" "DOD559" "0.748269"
V284 "20" "DOD314" "0.748266"

I checked it with various DOD's and the Belorussian comes very often (always?) at closest. This is - strange? I mean English, Irish, Germans, Norwegians all have that Belorussian as closest match, how's that.

Also 0,42 is pretty high, but you are only closer to Belorussians that high, then you fall down to below 0,75 immediately with no participant higher than 0,75.

That is really interesting.

[Pallantides]

A Karelian Finn on ABF also have that V06 Belorussian as her closest match.

[Aino]

My parents' closest neighbours:

> closest("DOD262")
[1] "Your nearest neighbor is 0.36 standard deviations closer to you than for the average project participant"
RANK ID IBS
V233 "1" "DOD262" "1"
V391 "2" "DOD426" "0.752072"
V609 "3" "Belorussian" "0.752065"
V40 "4" "DOD038" "0.75113" Finnish
V115 "5" "DOD131" "0.750932" Finnish
V21 "6" "DOD018" "0.7505" British-Irish-Italian-Finnish
V49 "7" "DOD050" "0.750203" Finnish
V431 "8" "DOD468" "0.749778"
V436 "9" "DOD473" "0.749484" Lithuanian
V546 "10" "DOD586" "0.749405"
V604 "11" "Lithuanians" "0.749371"
V7 "12" "DOD003" "0.749155" Finnish
V312 "13" "DOD343" "0.748869"
V605 "14" "Lithuanians" "0.748867"
V234 "15" "DOD263" "0.748833" Finnish
V304 "16" "DOD334" "0.748719" Finnish
V429 "17" "DOD466" "0.748604"
V375 "18" "DOD408" "0.748565" Siberian Russian, father N1c1 from St. Petersburg, mother from the Urals
V510 "19" "DOD550" "0.748559"
V601 "20" "Lithuanians" "0.748556"

> closest("DOD263")
[1] "Your nearest neighbor is 0.24 standard deviations closer to you than for the average project participant"
RANK ID IBS
V234 "1" "DOD263" "1"
V49 "2" "DOD050" "0.75142" Finnish
V40 "3" "DOD038" "0.751148" Finnish
V115 "4" "DOD131" "0.750743" Finnish
V609 "5" "Belorussian" "0.750637"
V176 "6" "DOD200" "0.750306" Finnish
V107 "7" "DOD119" "0.750266" Finland-Swedish from Ostrobothnia
V304 "8" "DOD334" "0.75022" Finnish
V196 "9" "DOD222" "0.750201" Finnish
V391 "10" "DOD426" "0.749577"
V598 "11" "Lithuanians" "0.749351"
V139 "12" "DOD160" "0.748972"
V103 "13" "DOD111" "0.74895"
V80 "14" "DOD086" "0.748846" American of mostly British and German ancestry
V233 "15" "DOD262" "0.748833" Finnish
V9 "16" "DOD005" "0.748552" Finnish
V7 "17" "DOD003" "0.748479" Finnish
V431 "18" "DOD468" "0.748441"
V604 "19" "Lithuanians" "0.748397"
V436 "20" "DOD473" "0.748245" Lithuanian

[Aino]

A Karelian Finn on ABF also have that V06 Belorussian as her closest match.

My parents have this Belorussian on their lists as well.

[Agrippa]

What was up with that individual, Belorussian V609 ;)

[Olavsson]

It would be really cool to participate in the Dodecad-project. I hope he will accept some new Norwegians soon...

[Pallantides]

Genetic structure of West Eurasians (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/04/genetic-structure-of-west-eurasians.html)

Norwegians

K-3
http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/1187/admixturenorwegiand3.png

K-4
http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/4932/admixturenorwegiand4.png

K-5
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/2056/admixturenorwegiand5.png

K-6
http://img231.imageshack.us/img231/6480/admixturenorwegiand6.png

K-7
http://img694.imageshack.us/img694/4111/admixturenorwegiand7.png

K-8
http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/947/admixturenorwegiand8.png

K-9
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/9359/admixturenorwegiand9.png

K-10
http://img842.imageshack.us/img842/4143/admixturenorwegiand10.png

K-11
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/6306/admixturenorwegiand11.png

[Pallantides]

DOD197

East Asian 0%
Northeast European 27.14%
Southwest Asian 0%
West Asian 0%
Basque 0%
North African 0%
South Asian 0%
East African 0%
Sub-Saharan 0%
Northwest European 69.63
Sardinian 3.22%

[Agrippa]

Swedish No 6 is interesting though, I mean being completely NW and NE European without ANY other influence, which seems to be pretty rare:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8582&stc=1&d=1303571944

[Loki]

I wasn't included in this run. :(

[Agrippa]

Some of these results seem to show how the basic elements of a larger population being shuffled, I mean most more typical representatives have the same elements, but the proportions are almost never the same in detail, not even between closest relatives...

[Sikeliot]

Is there any genetic difference between Norwegians and Swedes?

[Agrippa]

No major one, but in this analysis, Swedes have a very small but still noticeable "West Asian" component, while Norwegians largely don't and Swedish also have a stronger NE-European component.

[Pallantides]

Is there any genetic difference between Norwegians and Swedes?

Genetic differences vary and it also depend largly on what region someone is from, for example a western Swede could be genetically closer to a eastern Norwegian than he is a person from Northern Sweden, also take into consideration the different Historical outside influences , Forest Finns in eastern Norway and central Sweden, Saami influence in Northern Scandinavia, Scottish immigration to western Norway and the German immigration to the major trading cities.

From the K-11 results, some Swedes seem to have a small amount of West Asian admixture wich is absent in the Norwegian participants.


But I don't think there are enough participants to see the major differences in the Scandinavian regions yet.

[Franz]

He found two Iraqi Jews that were related to each other which caused the informative 12th cluster to appear. He’s going to do another comprehensive analysis which will probably include IDs not included in the one already done. I would expect to more clusters on the new one.

[Pallantides]

Here are the British and Irish K-11 sheets:http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/9237/admixturebritishd11.pnghttp://img705.imageshack.us/img705/3913/admixtureirishd11.png

[Loki]

^^ It's amazing that the British and Irish are so alike ... almost as if the Anglo-Saxons didn't change the genetic composition at all ... or, were very similar to the Celts anyway.

[hereward]

^^ It's amazing that the British and Irish are so alike ... almost as if the Anglo-Saxons didn't change the genetic composition at all ... or, were very similar to the Celts anyway.

I don’t think the above graphs could demonstrate that event. You would probably need to have separate populations from Wales, Scotland, Ireland, England Netherlands, Denmark, Northern France and Norway. In fact, because of the past 400 years, you would probably have to restrict the Irish samples to Connaught & Western Munster and the Welsh samples to North Wales. It would be extremely complicated; maybe beyond the scope of what Dienekes and Polako can achieve even if they wished.
You have to remember that this is the year 2011 not 1011. Nearly every European nation has undergone demographic change in the last 1000 years.
To investigate if a population movement truly happened at a certain time, the investigator would have to take into account the documented population movements/changes (variables) that happened after the event which one is investigating.
In the case of the 'Anglo-Saxon' settlement of England, one has to realise that today’s average Englishman, depending on the generation, has documented ancestry from Ireland, Scotland and Wales totaling 30-50%. This demographic change is a result of three events; The act of union, The Industrial revolution and English immigration to the New world.
The modern populations of France, Russia, Hungary etc. surely cannot be fully representative of their forefathers, History tells us so.

[Pallantides]

After seeing these results, I think we need to close the Norwegian border totally ... I don't want any of that green stuff in my future children.:D:D:D

Not even Brits, Germans and Swedes may enter the kingdom of Norway.

[Sikeliot]

Does someone have the graphs for the Spanish, Portuguese, Italians, and Greeks? I'd like to see those.

[Pallantides]

Does someone have the graphs for the Spanish, Portuguese, Italians, and Greeks? I'd like to see those.

K-11 sheets for Spanish, Portuguese, Italians and Greeks:)

http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/7628/admixturespanishd11.pnghttp://img26.imageshack.us/img26/8206/admixtureportuguesed11.pnghttp://img848.imageshack.us/img848/4810/admixtureitaliansd11.pnghttp://img855.imageshack.us/img855/2455/admixturegreekd11.png

[Sikeliot]

Some of the Spanish are nearly half NW European. I noticed the main differences;

Spanish have more NW European and Basque than the Portuguese, who seem to have more NW African than the Spanish.

Greeks have much more NE European and slightly more West Asian than the Italians, who have more SW Asian and NW European than the Greeks, and an element of NW African lacking altogether in the Greeks.

[Agrippa]

^^ It's amazing that the British and Irish are so alike ... almost as if the Anglo-Saxons didn't change the genetic composition at all ... or, were very similar to the Celts anyway.

Yet the Irish might have more generally Germanic and Viking influences than some people think they have too probably...

Probably some "old stock Welsh" are less Germanic influenced than many Irish actually...

[Sikeliot]

Does anyone have the one for the French? Since Iberians often cluster with the French on genetic plots I'm curious if their graph looks similar, particularly to the Spanish one since they have so much NW European.

If you ask me, these results entirely corroborate peer-reviewed studies, which show that the Spanish tend to pull toward Northwest Europe while S. Italians and Greeks tend to pull toward the Middle East, while all of these groups remain in the Southern European cluster.

Also notice that the British and Irish do overlap ;)

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y161/Zyklop/dna1.png

[Sikeliot]

This is based on Americans with 4 grandparents all from the same country - you can see that the Spanish fall somewhere between the British-Americans and the (South) Italian and Greek-Americans. I'd expect the French to cluster right with the Spanish but with more overlap with the British.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_6Hzs-1W_Qwg/TMtxvvGd4aI/AAAAAAAAAHU/_YSYhqSOltw/s1600/price2008-fig3b.png

[Ibericus]

Here you have more, all have the same pattern, spaniards clustering between French and north-italians and pulling towards Basques :

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/8453/mcdonald1.png

http://img377.imageshack.us/img377/2544/laoplotvu4.jpg

http://img255.imageshack.us/img255/7897/ejhg2008210f3th9.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_x6Y4ZgFsZdY/S_07tdszhII/AAAAAAAAATQ/8zH-_Sy5kb0/s1600/PCgraphEuro.png

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/SgPtrXOvDUI/AAAAAAAABbo/mDAK-MpRf9k/s1600/journal. pone.0005472.s007.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TBDgV2r3hxI/AAAAAAAACck/sYi1shNB8bc/s1600/westeurasianpca.jpg

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3074/eumescalabeled.jpg

http://oi52.tinypic.com/335gmd4.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TR8ox_MI6qI/AAAAAAAADIE/zEcyBpR0U8s/s1600/MDS1600.png

[Sikeliot]

So I guess there are 2 ways to look at it; Iberians are halfway between French and Northern Italians, or they are halfway between Southern Italians/Greeks and British/Irish if using groups further apart geographically.

[Franz]

After seeing these results, I think we need to close the Norwegian border totally ... I don't want any of that green stuff in my future children.:D:D:D

Not even Brits, Germans and Swedes may enter the kingdom of Norway.


All the Germans have that green stuff. :D

[Albion]

After seeing these results, I think we need to close the Norwegian border totally ... I don't want any of that green stuff in my future children.:D:D:D

Not even Brits, Germans and Swedes may enter the kingdom of Norway.

The green stuff originates in Georgia and the bordering areas of Russia.

[Pallantides]

I hope you know I was joking...:D

Though it's still interesting that none of the Norwegians have any 'West Asian' in the K-11 run.

[Agrippa]

The green stuff originates in Georgia and the bordering areas of Russia.

Well, I'd say it is the or at least one of the Anatolian-Mesopotamian Neolithic signals and spread from there in all directions.

It just survived in the Caucasian mountains somewhat better, because being there better isolated than in Anatolia from other, later influences.

[Sikeliot]

Agrippa - so which modern group is the best representation of the Neolithic migrants into Europe, genetically? Might it be Armenians and Georgians?

[Agrippa]

Agrippa - so which modern group is the best representation of the Neolithic migrants into Europe, genetically? Might it be Armenians and Georgians?

These representatives of the "Anatolian signal" were at least important sources for the Neolithic and Metal Age expansions from the Northern part probably and going through the Caucasus into Eastern Europe, over the Anatolia into South Eastern Europe.

But I think it is possible that there were other Neolithic expansions with different signals.

This is just an important one for the East and most likely present in early Indo-Europeans too.

If that component analysis represents a real, distinguishable element, I would say that Sardinian was part of it too obviously and if talking about the secondary centres, NE European as well.

So there was not just one expansion. But for this signal, this group, which I would also connect to the yDNA E-V13 and J2, "West Asian" might be not the signal 1:1, but seems to be at least related - at least it would fit into the necessary profile.

And today, well, it is simple, you see in which groups it is strongest, where it best survived genetically - not necessary racially, because if going after sites like Çatalhöyük, they were mostly Mediterranoid, whereas todays carriers being often "Armenoidicised".

The populations would be Lezgins and Georgians in particular, Armenian and Assyrian too.

[quotablepatella]

My latest results - DOD347

75.07% Northwest European (Average UK - 69.5%, Average Ireland - 74.8%)
8.73% Northeast European (Average UK - 10.1%, Average Ireland - 7.6%)
8.26% Basque (Average UK - 8.4%, Average Ireland - 10.4%)
5.57% Sardinian (Average UK - 9%, Average Ireland - 4.5%)
1.81% West Asian (Average UK - 2.4%, Average Ireland - 2.3%)
0.2% South Asian (Average UK - 0.2%, Average Ireland - 0.3%)
0% South West Asian (Average UK - 0%, Average Ireland - 0.1%)
0% East Asian (Average for both UK and Ireland is 0%)
0% North African (Average for UK - 0.1%, Average for Ireland - 0%)
0% Sub-Saharan (Average for UK - 0.2%, Average for Ireland - 0%)
0% East African (Average for both UK and Ireland is 0%)

I'm below or at average for most of the categories, but my NW Euro is 6% higher, closer to the Irish than the British average).

[Pallantides]

Some gradient maps by Loxias from ABF.
http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showpost.php?p=360060&postcount=459

North-West European:
http://img857.imageshack.us/img857/705/nwedodk11.jpg

N-East European:
http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/394/needodk11.jpg

Basque:
http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/9239/badodk11.jpg

Sardinian:
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/8419/sardodk11.jpg

East Asian:
http://img845.imageshack.us/img845/7990/eadodk11.jpg

West Asian:
http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/8162/wadodk11.jpg

South-West Asian:
http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/1791/swadodk11l.jpg

South Asian:
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/8302/sadodk11.jpg

North African:
http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/8105/nadodk11.jpg

East African:
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/2571/eafdodk11.jpg

Sub-Saharan African:
http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/9849/ssadodk11.jpg

[Agrippa]

What's also interesting is the relationship of the components to each other, at the bottom of the picture:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Wk9_ST1CKC4/TbFOmpaIlGI/AAAAAAAADiQ/jhw64bHM1G4/s1600/ADMIXTURE_11.png

Just look at the fact, that North Eastern is closer to Basque than to West Asian, even though they are geographically closer TODAY, while on the other hand, NW European is closer to West Asian than what one might think it would, if looking at the geographical distribution!

West Asian is almost - so practically as - close to North Western as Basque is.

The distance to South Western is MUCH larger in comparison.

Sardinian is closest to North Western!

It looks to me, as if the North Western component could be, actually, more of a mix of other components in this scheme at least, showing so close relationships to the rest.

North Eastern on the other hand is distant from all the other components, but close, really close, only to North Western.

This implies to me that this North Eastern is more of an isolated (Mesolithic? Together with Basque?) component, whereas North Western shows strong connections to all the components common in Europe, almost on the same level.

North Western is the closest match for North Eastern, West Asian, Basque and Sardinian.

So I'd assume the Northern component of the North West is the result of a mixture from all those elements marching North in very ancient times, closest to North Eastern, but also close to the rest of the main European components.

At least if overstretching the data and my imagination ;)

But I found it really interesting how that is possible and expect further break ups, especially with more data...

[Transhumanist]

And today, well, it is simple, you see in which groups it is strongest, where it best survived genetically - not necessary racially, because if going after sites like Çatalhöyük, they were mostly Mediterranoid, whereas todays carriers being often "Armenoidicised".

The populations would be Lezgins and Georgians in particular, Armenian and Assyrian too.

I agree. Originally, I included only the Armenians, Assyrians, and Iraqi [Babylonian] Jews in the graphic I am attaching, below. After reading your comment, I added the Georgian and Lezgin Dodecad K11 averages.

[Efim45]

How accurate are these results, are they more accurate when you compare to a group with similar ancestry?

[Pallantides]

K=12 ADMIXTURE results for selected participants (http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/04/k12-admixture-results-for-selected.html)
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-po3ry04KyLo/TbniIYg6VbI/AAAAAAAAAco/a4_OF8k5gGk/s1600/ADMIXTURE_12.png



DOD197

North-west European 58.68%
North-east European 29.93%
Basque 9.01%
West Asian 1.73%
East Asian 0.47%
Sardinian 0.17%
North African 0%
South Asian 0%
East African 0%
Sub-Saharan 0%
South-west Asian 0%
North Eurasian 0%

[Pallantides]

Some of the K=12 sheets

Scandinavians
http://img813.imageshack.us/img813/2973/admixturescandinaviand1.png(I'm nr.12)

British
http://img26.imageshack.us/img26/2152/admixturebritishd12.png

Finns
http://img641.imageshack.us/img641/9625/admixturefinnishd12.png

Germans
http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/4773/admixturegermand12.png

Irish
http://img130.imageshack.us/img130/4318/admixtureirishd12.png

Polish
http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/7697/admixturepolishd12.png

Russians
http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/4587/admixturerussiand12.png

[quotablepatella]

DOD347

63.05% North West European (UK average 61.7%, Ireland average 63.9%) - decrease from last run of 12.02%
16.84% North East European (UK average 13.9%, Ireland average 13.7%) - increase from last run of 8.11%
12.72% Basque (UK average 14.4%, Ireland average 15.6%) - increase from last run of 4.46%
3.85% Sardinian (UK average 4.6%, Ireland average 1.8%) - decrease from last run of 1.72%
1.28% North African (UK average 0.4%, Ireland average 0.2%) - increase from last run of 1.28%
1.24% West Asian (UK average 2.7%, Ireland average 2.8%) - decrease from last run of 0.57%
0.81% East African (UK average 0.2%, Ireland average 0.1%) - increase from last run of 0.81%
0.2% South West Asian (UK average 1.1%, Ireland average 1%) - increase from last run of 0.2%
0% Sub-Saharan (UK average 0.3%, Ireland average 0%) - remained the same
0% South Asian (UK average 0.6%, Ireland average 0.7%) - decrease from last run of 0.2%
0% East Asian (UK average 0.1%, Ireland average 0%) - remained the same
0% North Eurasian (UK average 0.1%, Ireland average 0.1%) - not included in last run

[Agrippa]

Results are quite different now in many respects, also compare the components to each other.

NW is now even closer to West Asian than before (0,037) and further removed from North Eastern (0,045), North Eastern is now almost as close to Basque as to NW.

That points to what I said before about the components relations, but in this analysis, which seems to be more detailed, it becomes even more clear that North Western has much closer relations to the Neolithic-Southern components than North Eastern.

If comparing with SW Asian, NE Euro is much further away with 0,067 than NW Euro with 0,048 - almost the same distance as between NW and NE with 0,045.

I don't know how this can be (if comparing with the older analysis), but this would really put NE Euro in the category of the older European population elements or an isolated one, while NW is the component of an expansion (Mesolithic, from specific refugia? Neolithic, even Metal Age influences?) much closer related to the Neolithic-Southern components.

Well, let's look for new surprises in new runs ;)

[Graham]

DOD345
NW European 67.37%
Basque 19.14%
NE European 10.57%
SW Asian 1.48%
West Asian 1.11%
South Asian 0.22%
Sub Saharan 0.11%
All the rest on 0%

[Agrippa]

I also noticed that many Dodecad Indians, Iranians and Pakistani (mostly Northern and higher caste) have NE, NW and WA in the mix, with NW being particularly interesting.

Actually even Jordanians and Lebanese show the NW now, but Iraqi Jews only one.

Morocco Jews too though.

Some Mozabites too, as well as most North Africans, Syrians and some Saudis.

So NW is now really defined differently obviously...

And South West Asian is now practically everywhere.

[Pallantides]

My results in comparison with two other Norwegians

DOD197(me)

North-west European 58.68%
North-east European 29.93%
Basque 9.01%
West Asian 1.73%
East Asian 0.47%
Sardinian 0.17%
North African 0%
South Asian 0%
East African 0%
Sub-Saharan 0%
South-west Asian 0%
North Eurasian 0%


DOD306(West Norwegian)

North-west European 61.54%
North-east European 22.38%
Basque 11.32%
Sardinian 1.54%
West Asian 0.89%
South-west Asian 0.76%
North African 0.68%
South Asian 0.48%
East Asian 0.4%
East African 0%
Sub-Saharan 0%
North Eurasian 0%


DOD340

North-west European 55.28%
North-east European 25.88%
Basque 13.79%
West Asian 3.12%
North Eurasian 1.91%
North African 0%
South Asian 0%
Sardinian 0%
East Asian 0%
East African 0%
Sub-Saharan 0%
South-west Asian 0%

[Agrippa]

Strange you have East Asian but no North Eurasian.

Yet your East Asian might be part of what Dienekes mentioned, the noise appearing at this solution - I wouldn't bet too much on anything below 1 percent.

[Loki]

Unfortunately I was not included in this run.

[Hussar]

DOD456


K=12

(north-Europe) :

NORTHWEST Euro = 31,71 %

NORTHEAST Euro = 7,43 %

(south-europe) :

SARDINIAN = 21,11 %

BASQUE = 17,24 %

-------
(others)

West Asian = 13,96 %

south-west Asian = 6,99 %

south-Asian = 0,06%

east asian = 0,00 %

east African = 0,78 %

west African = 0,58%

[Agrippa]

His new data is interesting:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/six-months-of-dodecad-project.html

What I really wonder is that there are in fact 2 North Atlantic-Germanic clusters, with the one of the differences being, that in the 2nd one are two more Northern Balkanic individuals, 3 and 5 and in the first most British Isles people:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-bvZltqp4_qY/Tb3QN-QST-I/AAAAAAAADmk/sYFyD1ch4Pc/s1600/galore.png

One could say North Atlantic vs. Continental Germanic/Central European Indo-Europeans. Scandinavians are split, I guess more Swedes fall into the 2nd cluster and Norwegians will be closer to the North Atlantid one of the British and Irish.

Would be my guess at least.

The two Balkan individuals are easy to explain, as the Balkan sample can be split into more Northern one and more "regional".

Dienekes says himself:

Notice also the asymmetry between γ(A, B) and γ(B, A). For example, the sample from the Balkans consists of an assortment of non-Greek people from the Balkans, so it's not particularly concordant with respect to many North European populations: people from the Balkans differ from each other substantially in their North European-ness. North European populations, however, tend to be concordant with respect to people from the Balkans.



I know PC analysis can be strange on the graphic, but I wondered about this as well, because the Finns being closer to Ashkenazi than the Near Easterners in this depiction:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xH4fnQnYbS8/Tb3OHv74CBI/AAAAAAAADmU/A_dkW4i_-TA/s1600/1_4.png

Which is very strange.

Otherwise everything else was like expected.

[Loki]

Unfortunately I was not included in this run.

This is why:




Only populations with 5+ individuals are included in this.

[Franz]

West Eurasian PCA plot showing some implications
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-_6XAIk6ygtg/Tcqj7WCS_jI/AAAAAAAADsU/WJDG6R2XnH0/s1600/waeu.png

West Eurasians with Chinese and Yorubas
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/--4v9G0mFJ-k/TcqkPPWrLHI/AAAAAAAADsc/hX6gDd1eYJo/s1600/waeu_yri_chb.pnghttp://4.bp.blogspot.com/-hHmlCN7rVWs/TcqkryZsiZI/AAAAAAAADss/oRV9uHv7KZA/s1600/waeu_yri_chb_blowup2.png

[Pallantides]

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/05/600-members.html


DOD197(Me)

Supervised - Average

Papuan 0
Amerindian 1.03
East Asian 0.08
Palaeoafrican 0
European 98.86

Unsupervised - Average

Amerindian 0.02
Palaeoafrican 0
Papuan 0
European Caucasoid 96.92
Asian Caucasoid 1.71
East Asian 1.35



Some other Norwegians for comparison:

DOD061(East Norwegian)

Supervised - Average

Papuan 0.14
Amerindian 1.64
East Asian 0
Paleoafrican 0
European 98.22

Unsupervised - Average

Amerindian 0.32
Paleoafrican 0
Papuan 0.52
European Caucasoid 95.02
Asian Caucasoid 3.29
East Asian 0.85

DOD279(West Norwegian)

Supervised - Average

Papuan 0.21
Amerindian 1.09
East Asian 0.42
Palaeoafrican 0
European 98.28

Unsupervised - Average

Amerindian 0
Palaeoafrican 0
Papuan 0.3
European Caucasoid 92.1
Asian Caucasoid 6.42
East Asians 1.18

DOD306(West Norwegian)

Supervised - Average

Papuan 0.3
Amerindian 0.61
East Asian 0.57
Palaeoafrican 0
European 98.52

Unsupervised - Average

Amerindian 0
Palaeoafrican 0
Papuan 0.36
European Caucasoid 90.87
Asian Caucasoid 7.8
East Asian 0.96

DOD329(3/4 Norwegian, 1/4 Swedish with some Forest Finn ancestry)

Supervised - Average

Papuan 0
Amerindian 1.38
East Asian 0.5
Palaeoafrican 0
European 98.13

Unsupervised - Average

Amerindian 0.39
Palaeoafrican 0
Papuan 0
European Caucasoid 92.5
Asian Caucasoid 5.71
East Asian 1.39

DOD340(Norwegian with some recent Swedish ancestry)

Supervised - Average

Papuan 0
Amerindian 1.22
East Asian 1.06
Palaeoafrican 0
European 97.72

Unsupervised - Average

Amerindian 0.11
Palaeoafrican 0
Papuan 0.26
European Caucasoid 90.12
Asian Caucasoid 7.67
East Asian 1.84

[Loki]

Mine


Supervised DOD442

0.18 Papuan
0.7 Amerindian
1.2 East_Asian
2.14 Palaeoafrican
95.78 European


Unsupervised DOD442

0.15 Amerindian
1.98 Palaeoafrican
0.15 Papuan
74.98 European Caucasoid
21.45 Asian Caucasoid
1.29 East Asian

What the ... Asian Caucasoids?? Who are/were they?

[Pallantides]

What the ... Asian Caucasoids?? Who are/were they?

From what I have gathered it peaks in Assyrians.


----
Norwegians - Unsupervised

Amerindian

0.39
0.32
0.11
0.02(me)
0
0

Palaeoafrican - 0 for everyone

Papuan

0.52
0.36
0.3
0.26
0
0(me)

European Caucasoid:

96.92(me)
95.02
92.5
92.1
90.87
90.12

Asian Caucasoid:

7.8
7.67
6.42
5.71
3.29
1.71(me)

East Asian:

1.84
1.39
1.35(me)
1.18
0.96
0.85


*At 1.71 my Asian Caucasoid seem very low.

[Agrippa]

Well, seems not all Norwegians are as much Mesolithic, since I would suspect that the "Asian Europid" is more recent actually and older waves already made it too, which would increase the absolute proportions of "later comers", but you definitely are going after various tests by now.

[Loki]

Probably the equivalent of some sort of southern European then (as per your rep). That would make more sense.

Anyway, this seems to be a decent result which looks quite close to the real thing, from all the tests and experiments that have been run.

I would like to see how the averages of European ethnicities come out on this one.

[Pallantides]

Someone on ABF have suggested that it could be a combination of West Asian, South-West Asian and Adyghe.

In the ancestry thread on Dodecad's blog I could only find one Swede and her "Asian Caucasoid" admixture is 6.16

Here is the "Asian Caucasoid" scores for some Germans and their ancestry description:

24.97(Saxon and Prussian ancestry)
20.19(Rheinland-Pfalz and Posen)
14.66(Schlesien and Warthegau)
13.37(Eastern Thuringia)
10.39(Prussian ancestry)
10.24(North German, with some ancestry from Thuringia and minor Danish ancestry)

[Franz]

Someone on ABF have suggested that it could be a combination of West Asian, South-West Asian and Adyghe.

The Basque individual sample has about 27% "Asian Caucasoid" on this, so that doesn't entirely fit the description. On K=10, 11 and 12 he had 0% West Asian.

[Pallantides]

Lol this one is funny:

I think this "Asian Caucasoid" is specifically designed by Dienekes to decrease Turks' Asian%. He also keeps comparing us to Uzbeks.

[Hussar]

Me

(supervised) :


PAPUAN = 1.02

AMERINDIAN = 0

EAST ASIAN = 0

PALEOAFRICAN = 0.36

EUROPEAN = 98.62

[d3cimat3d]

Papuan: 0.99%
Amerindian: 0%
East Asian: 3.67%
Palaeoafrican: 0%
European: 95.33%

I wonder what the Papuan could mean, could it have something to do with the Denisovans perhaps?


According to their analysis, this group shares a common origin with the Neanderthals and interbred with the ancestors of modern Melanesians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denisova_hominin

[Hussar]

(Unsupervised)

I reported just the two principal components.


ME :

EUROP. CAUCASOID : 59,92

ASIAN CAUCASOID : 39,7



(for comparison )

centre-south italian average (the belt from Rome to Sicily) :



EUROP. CAUCASOID = - 33,54

ASIAN CAUCASOID = - 65,58

[Olavsson]

The spreadsheet was a bit confusing this time, but "Supervised" is starting at "B", right?

(Roughly)

97.91% European
2.07% Amerindian
0% Palaeoafrican
0% East Asian
0.01% Papuan

In this run, I am 2% Skraeling - oh the horror!

Where is this "Asian caucasoid" some of you mention? I couldn't find it in the spreadsheet...

[Pallantides]

The spreadsheet was a bit confusing this time, but "Supervised" is starting at "B", right?

(Roughly)

97.91% European
2.07% Amerindian
0% Palaeoafrican
0% East Asian
0% Papuan

In this run, I am 2% Skraeling - oh the horror!

Where is this "Asian caucasoid" some of you mention? I couldn't find it in the spreadsheet...



Norwegians - Unsupervised(with the screen names of ABF and Apricity forumites):

Amerindian

0.89 (Olavsson)
0.39(DOD329)
0.32 (Calamus)
0.11 (Nordmann)
0.02(Pallantides)
0 (Evon)
0(DOD279)

Palaeoafrican - 0 for everyone

Papuan

0.52 (Calamus)
0.36 (Evon)
0.3(DOD279)
0.28(Olavsson)
0.26 (Nordmann)
0(DOD329
0(Pallantides)

European Caucasoid:

96.92(Pallantides)
95.02 (Calamus)
94.12(Olavsson)
92.5(DOD329)
92.1(DOD279)
90.87 (Evon)
90.12 (Nordmann)

Asian Caucasoid:

7.8 (Evon)
7.67 (Nordmann)
6.42(DOD279)
5.71(DOD329)
3.92(Olavsson)
3.29 (Calamus)
1.71(Pallantides)

East Asian:

1.84 (Nordmann)
1.39(DOD329)
1.35(Pallantides)
1.18(DOD279)
0.96 (Evon)
0.85 (Calamus)
0.82(Olavsson)

Evon - Western Norwegian from Bergen with ancestry from Sogn og Fjordane
Calamus - Eastern Norwegian
DOD279 - Western Norwegian with ancestry mainly from Møre og Romsdal
DOD329 - 3/4 Norwegian, 1/4 Swedish with some Forest Finn ancestry
Nordmann - not sure where in Norway he is from.

[Aino]

My parents' results.

Supervised

Father
European 92,71
East_Asian 4,31
Amerindian 2,24
Papuan 0,75
Palaeoafrican 0

Mother
European 90,62
East_Asian 6,62
Amerindian 2,76
Papuan 0
Palaeoafrican 0

Unsupervised

Father
European Caucasoid 92,67
East Asian 5,54
Papuan 0,95
Amerindian 0,84
Palaeoafrican 0
Asian Caucasoid 0

Mother
European Caucasoid 90,81
East Asian 7,79
Amerindian 1,23
Papuan 0,16
Palaeoafrican 0
Asian Caucasoid 0

[Efim45]

My supervised results:
.38% Papuan
1.17% Amerindian
3.48% East Asian
.14% Palaeoafrican
94.83% European
-----------
These results aren't definitive, are they?

[Graham]

Supervised


European 99.4
East_Asian 0
Amerindian 0.60
Papuan 0
Palaeoafrican 0


Unsupervised

European Caucasoid 88.39
East Asian 0
Amerindian 0
Papuan 0.03
Palaeoafrican 0
Asian Caucasoid 11.57

[d3cimat3d]

My supervised results:
.38% Papuan
1.17% Amerindian
3.48% East Asian
.14% Palaeoafrican
94.83% European
-----------
These results aren't definitive, are they?

Well considering that both of us are east-Europeans and we got a decent amount of East Asian and west-Europeans did not, I'd say it's pretty accurate.

[Franz]

Submission opportunity open: http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/05/open-ended-submission-opportunity-for.html

23andMe or FamilyTreeDNA's "Family Finder" data

[Olavsson]

Wow, check out DOD655 from the latest results: 96.8% Northern European! It's not many people with such a high "Northern European" element in the spreadsheet. I wonder which country he/she might be from?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-lDE4nfMU56g/TdZBPmEqgpI/AAAAAAAAAdo/CDn4T1BfNmg/s1600/ADMIXTURE_DOD643_DOD655_10.png


Btw, I haven't posted my personal results for the standard Dodecad-analysis yet, so here we go:

(DOD620)

68.9% 'Northern European'
19.6% 'Southern European'
10% 'West Asian'
1.5% 'Northeast Asian'

What exactly is the "West Asian"? I've seen that most Europeans get this as well, so it shouldn't be anything "suspicious" I guess.

[Ibericus]

Btw, I haven't posted my personal results for the standard Dodecad-analysis yet, so here we go:

(DOD620)

68.9% 'Northern European'
19.6% 'Southern European'
10% 'West Asian'
1.5% 'Northeast Asian'

What exactly is the "West Asian"? I've seen that most Europeans get this as well, so it shouldn't be anything "suspicious" I guess.
The west-asian component peaks in Georgians and other caucasians, and it's presence in Europe probably has to do with neolithic migrations.

[Olavsson]

Thank you, Iberia. :)

Do anyone have average-scores for each European country based on the standard Dodecad-test?

[Ibericus]

Thank you, Iberia. :)

Do anyone have average-scores for each European country based on the standard Dodecad-test?
Here, but it hasn't been updated since a long time :

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDRCd0dva0dwTzc3a0JicjZmRE96b Gc&hl=en&authkey=CPGxtqQM#gid=0

[Franz]

He/she is probably from Northeastern Europe.

[Pallantides]

Btw, I haven't posted my personal results for the standard Dodecad-analysis yet, so here we go:

(DOD620)

68.9% 'Northern European'
19.6% 'Southern European'
10% 'West Asian'
1.5% 'Northeast Asian'




Here is mine:

West Asian 9.2
Northwest African 0
South European 17.1
Northeast Asian 0
Southwest Asian 0
East Asian 0
North European 73.7
West African 0
East African 0
South Asian 0

[Olavsson]

Average-results for Dodecad-populations were posted yesterday on the blog:

https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArJDEoCgzRKedGhfMHl2M3RrOUpocHg3c05sWkZub Wc&hl=en_US&authkey=COa37rEO#gid=0


Let's compare my results with the Norwegian average (10 Norwegian samples)...


Olavsson:

68.9% 'Northern European'
19.6% 'Southern European'
10% 'West Asian'
1.5% 'Northeast Asian'
(0% on the rest)



Norwegians:

69.8% 'Northern European'
21.4% 'Southern European'
7.9% 'West Asian'
0.4% 'Northeast Asian'
0.2% 'Southwest Asian'
0.1% 'East Asian'
0.2% 'South Asian'

[Pallantides]

My North European, South European and West Asian values are more simillar to the Swedish average than the Norwegian average.

[Olavsson]

For how long have the so-called Southern European component been in Scandinavia?
Would the ancient Germanics have come out as "100% Northern European"?

[Sikeliot]

Would the ancient Germanics have come out as "100% Northern European"?


I can't imagine they would've been. I have nothing else to go by but there is one mtdna haplogroup (V) that is highest in frequency, oddly enough, in Iberia and Scandinavia and much less everywhere else.. so there might have been some ancient migration.

[Pallantides]

mtDNA V have it's highest frequency among the Saami people at 40%, it's spread out all over Northern Europe at lower frequencies but it's highest concentration is among the Saami, I have 11 cousins on 23andMe with mtDNA V.

[Ibericus]

Here, but it hasn't been updated since a long time :

https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDRCd0dva0dwTzc3a0JicjZmRE96b Gc&hl=en&authkey=CPGxtqQM#gid=0
Btw he made an update :

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/05/k10-admixture-proportions-of-dodecad.html

[Pallantides]

Trees for K=10 Dodecad Populations by Wojewoda from ABF:
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/2889/10dod4.jpg
http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/1301/10dod5.jpg

[Agrippa]

What's especially strange is the Sardinian position in the first tree. I know this is mostly due to the isolation, but still it is absurd from the point of general and racial relatedness.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I am DOD709.

North European: 44%
South European: 27%
West Asian: 19%
Southwest Asian: 7.7%
Northeast Asian: 0.7%
East Asian: 0.8%
Northwest African: 0.2%
West African: 0%
East African: 0%
South Asian: 0%

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AfCdJb4vs-Y/TeXoigEDXDI/AAAAAAAAAg4/6I6NJTozhts/s1600/ADMIXTURE_DOD704_DOD712_10.png

[poiuytrewq0987]

I think it's interesting there are Japaneses who score 100% East Asian whereas there are no Euros who score 100% for North or South.

[Agrippa]

I think it's interesting there are Japaneses who score 100% East Asian whereas there are no Euros who score 100% for North or South.

Mongolids are a core race, they expanded fast from a centre, so the general differentiation is for that and other reasons not as high.

Additionally, I'm pretty sure if searching long enough with enough samples, you will get more components in the East Asians as well, especially in the Japanese.

Don't forget these runs concentrate on Europeans largely...

The South Asian too is not the homogeneouis obvously, to give another example.

[d3cimat3d]

I am DOD709.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-AfCdJb4vs-Y/TeXoigEDXDI/AAAAAAAAAg4/6I6NJTozhts/s1600/ADMIXTURE_DOD704_DOD712_10.png

Ha, you are twice as much Arab (SW Asian) as me, but on the plus side, also a lot more north European.

DOD353

http://i52.tinypic.com/2s7we44.png

[Efim45]

13.2 West Asian
0.1 Northwest African
14.7 South European
2.4 Northeast Asian
8.9 Southwest Asian
1.3 East Asian
59.4 North European
0 West African
0 East African
0 South Asian
European adds up to about 75%, which is very accurate. As for the Asian percentages, I am 2% Asian on McDonald's analysis.

[Loki]

13.2 West Asian
0.1 Northwest African
14.7 South European
2.4 Northeast Asian
8.9 Southwest Asian
1.3 East Asian
59.4 North European
0 West African
0 East African
0 South Asian
European adds up to about 75%, which is very accurate. As for the Asian percentages, I am 2% Asian on McDonald's analysis.

No you can consider your European about 88%. The "West Asian" is a common component in Europe.

[Agrippa]

No you can consider your European about 88%. The "West Asian" is a common component in Europe.

Indeed, otherwise there would be no pure Europeans anyway and in all analysis, West Asian is close to the other European components too in a direct comparison.

[Barreldriver]

I see that I've not posted my results here yet:

West Asian (Caucasus): 13.9%
Northwest African: 0%
South European: 31.7%
Northeast Asian: 0%
Southwest Asian: 0%
East Asian: 0%
North European: 54.4%
West African: 0%
East African: 0%
South Asian: 0%

March 31st, 2011
81% Cluster 2
19% Cluster 6

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/03/clusters-galore-results-k73-for-dodecad.html
Cluster #2 is by far the largest, consisting of mainly of "British Isles"/American White types of people; this grew substantially because of the recent open submission call when many people of this type of ancestry joined

Cluster #6 is mostly (but not exclusively) French.

[Efim45]

No you can consider your European about 88%. The "West Asian" is a common component in Europe.

That makes it even more accurate because I got about 88% on the McDonald test. I see a lot of people have West Asian.:) Thank you.

[Ibericus]

No, the West Asian is not european, otherwise Georgians would be 98% europeans, and of course they are not, since they genetically cluster with Iranians and Turks. Going by North+South they are only 23% european.

[Loki]

No, the West Asian is not european, otherwise Georgians would be 98% europeans, and of course they are not, since they genetically cluster with Iranians and Turks. Going by North+South they are only 23% european.

West Asian is caucasoid.

[Olavsson]

No, the West Asian is not european, otherwise Georgians would be 98% europeans, and of course they are not, since they genetically cluster with Iranians and Turks. Going by North+South they are only 23% european.

If West Asian should be considered un-Europid, then I would be about 90% European in the Dodecad-analysis. In Dr. McDonalds analysis, I am 100% European.

[Ibericus]

If West Asian should be considered un-Europid, then I would be about 90% European in the Dodecad-analysis. In Dr. McDonalds analysis, I am 100% European.
Yes, because the McDonalds analysis is K=7 while Dodecad is K=10, which means the European at McDonalds includes already the west Asian, while Dodecad is able to splitt the west-asian component from europeans.

[Agrippa]

West Asian is an integral part of the European genetic make up since many thousands of years and other European components appear outside of Europe in the geographical sense as well.

Now Anatolians are heavily mixed with other elements too and Caucasians had a long development on their own and other admixture as well.

So from a racial point of view, the racial type of those people which carried West Asian genetic influences into Europe were most likely different from todays carriers in the Caucasian areas, after Armenoidisation took place.

This is therefore more a difference of evolution SINCE THEN, rather than a difference per se, if you get what I mean.

Fact is, that the Southern and West Asian components are part of the European make up, you can't subtract it, that would be insane, because as the distribution shows, it is an integral part of the European genetic make up since thousand of years and very close to other European components - some European components are closer to this component than to others in Europe, so it can be hardly seen as "non-European" in a meaningful way.

[poiuytrewq0987]

West Asian is an integral part of the European genetic make up since many thousands of years and other European components appear outside of Europe in the geographical sense as well.

Now Anatolians are heavily mixed with other elements too and Caucasians had a long development on their own and other admixture as well.

So from a racial point of view, the racial type of those people which carried West Asian genetic influences into Europe were most likely different from todays carriers in the Caucasian areas, after Armenoidisation took place.

This is therefore more a difference of evolution SINCE THEN, rather than a difference per se, if you get what I mean.

Fact is, that the Southern and West Asian components are part of the European make up, you can't subtract it, that would be insane, because as the distribution shows, it is an integral part of the European genetic make up since thousand of years and very close to other European components - some European components are closer to this component than to others in Europe, so it can be hardly seen as "non-European" in a meaningful way.

It does seem likely, below is my interpretation of the data on my Dienekes' test.

North European: 44%

My North European genetype is much higher than South European. Could be attributed to my Slavic ancestors who lived in the Carpathians.

South European: 27%

My South European genetype is second highest which suggests Paleobalkan and Hellenic influence.

West Asian: 19%

Neolithic wave influence? My Egyptian ancestors from many millennias ago who migrated out of East Africa and into the Balkans could be the primary cause of West Asian score.

Southwest Asian: 7.7%

Southwest Asian could mean either Anatolian or Iranian. I think former is more likely than the latter but if there is any truth to Serbian Iran origins theory then the latter could be attributed to Iranian/Scythian influence.

Northeast Asian: 0.7%

Northeast Asia is around Mongolia so my guess is Tatar/Cuman influence but obviously this influence was limited to very few ancestors way back.

East Asian: 0.8%

China, Japan, Korea and Mongolia are the only countries in East Asia. Only Mongolians made it all the way to Europe so this could be either Magyar or Mongolian influence from an already mixed person.

Northwest African: 0.2%

Carthaginian/Phoenician remnants?

[d3cimat3d]

^ Not a bad idea, here's mine.

West Asian - 38.5%

I'm 1/4 South Ossetian so no suprise that this would be my dominating component, since West Asian peaks in Georgians.

North European - 37.1%

Mostly from Slavs but also from East Germanic tribes & Scythian too.

South European - 19.5%

Probably from Dacians/Thracians, the Kurganized Anatolian farmers.

South-West Asian - 2.5%

Glad my ancestors kept this one at bay. 2.5% is not that much. :D

North-East Asian - 2.4%

Mostly from Bulgars.

[Agrippa]

It is never that easy and whether we deal with ancestral components in reality is open to debate, but if wanting to overstretch things and putting them into context, my ideas, as speculative as they are, would be like this now:


North European:

Currently I see different components in it, pre-Mesolithic, Mesolithic and early Neolithic influences from North of a certain line.

Probably it could be split up in "archaic" and "colonisers", like suggested before, with the archaic being pre- and early Mesolithic, especially from the fringes (extreme North and North East), the "colonisers" late Mesolithic and Neolithic from the Southern parts of Eastern Europe.

The colonisers already had an old West Asian influence probably, being essentially the population which was formed after the Ice Age and the beginning of higher hunter culture and Neolithic culture North of a certain line.

The archaic component can be associated with the mtDNA U5 and U4 in particular.

South European:

Essentially the same as the "early colonisers" before, just for the parts of Europe South of a certain line (around the Alps) where this populations were largely formed.

Again they can be split up in an earlier wave and later coming colonisers.

West Asian:

The orginal core region of Europids from which many waves came to other regions and differentiated from it.

Again, this influence was present in earlier colonisers already, but is largely melted and deviated already, while the later waves are still better recognisable. These can be associated with late Neolithic and Metal Age expansions from the South East-West Asia.

Southwest Asian:

Essentially from the Southern region of Arabia, most likely Afro-Asiatic in origin, spread in the Metal Ages and with Semitic people in Europe, like Phoenicians, Jews, Arabs, but also Metal Age specialists and latest immigrant waves in prehistoric times.

Northeast Asian:

Essentially Siberian people, mostly of Sibirid race in Europe, secondly Tungid (Turko-Mongol) possible.

Came to Europe primarily with Finno-Ugrians/Uralics and Turkic people.

East Asian:

Mostly the same, but more likely to be Turko-Mongol in origin if talking about Europe.

In both "Asian cases", a common and very old Proto-Euromongoloid Siberian component could be present, related to Indianids, too.

Northwest African:

North West African could have come with various people, but most likely being associated with regional inhabitants, the autochthonous people of North Africa.

Like other elements, this could be carried on by different people which made contacts with the North African Europids.

[Ibericus]

West Asian is an integral part of the European genetic make up since many thousands of years and other European components appear outside of Europe in the geographical sense as well.

Now Anatolians are heavily mixed with other elements too and Caucasians had a long development on their own and other admixture as well.

So from a racial point of view, the racial type of those people which carried West Asian genetic influences into Europe were most likely different from todays carriers in the Caucasian areas, after Armenoidisation took place.

This is therefore more a difference of evolution SINCE THEN, rather than a difference per se, if you get what I mean.

Fact is, that the Southern and West Asian components are part of the European make up, you can't subtract it, that would be insane, because as the distribution shows, it is an integral part of the European genetic make up since thousand of years and very close to other European components - some European components are closer to this component than to others in Europe, so it can be hardly seen as "non-European" in a meaningful way.
So according to you the Georgians are 98% european, that's insane considering they genetically cluster with Iranians and Turks, and it's higher than most europeans. Besides, the Basques don't have this west-asian component. Yes, this component probably came in the neolithic waves from the near-east, carrying haplogroups E,J,G, mostly. It's not authoctnous europeans. So, the purest europeans are Basques, making them 99% european by adding only South and North components.

[Agrippa]

So according to you the Georgians are 98% european, that's insane considering they genetically cluster with Iranians and Turks, and it's higher than most europeans. Besides, the Basques don't have this west-asian component. Yes, this component probably came in the neolithic waves from the near-east, carrying haplogroups E,J,G, mostly. It's not authoctnous europeans. So, the purest europeans are Basques, making them 99% european by adding only South and North components.

Look, the general West Asian component, whether best exemplified by Georgians and whether this approach is hundert percent correct is open to debate, is a common root and source for many Europeans.

Fact is just, that those "which stood behind" developed in a different direction from the time the original component made it into Europe. So they are not as European, because of the racial change taking place.

Genetically however, their component is not that foreign to Europe and calling it non-European, if it is there for thousands of years and fully Europid, not even associated with foreign racial forms and traits, it just not applicable.

South West Asia on the other hand is clearly foreign and came mostly later it seems, also from a source further removed from Europeans - yet still Europid by race of course.

The Basques are an isolate which in itself can hardly be representative of Europeans now or thousands of years ago, considering that they are non-Indo-Europeans...

They are only representative of one important and original European part - among others.

Among the others West Asian or at least related elements were present since the Mesolithic, latest early Metal Age, so...

[StonyArabia]

e.
South West Asia on the other hand is clearly foreign and came mostly later it seems, also from a source further removed from Europeans - yet still Europid by race of course.
..

South West Asian cluster has a higher drag toward SSA Africa than any other Caucasoid cluster safe for the Berber one. Though it seems to be distantly related to the Med component, and not the West Asian cluster, since the West Asian cluster seems to be related distantly to the North European cluster, but it does not show a drag to SSA Africa. Today the South West Asian cluster peaks in the Bedouins, Saudis, Yemeni Jews and Iraqis who usually score from 100% to 85% South West Asian. Reaching Northern Iraq it falls dramatically to the West Asian cluster. It's one of the very unique "West Eurasian" clusters, and as well most distant to Europeans.

[Ibericus]

Genetically however, their component is not that foreign to Europe and calling it non-European, if it is there for thousands of years and fully Europid, not even associated with foreign racial forms and traits, it just not applicable.
Then we should apply the same to other components, like the Southwest-asian. In conclusion, you are confusing caucasoid with european. Yes, west-asian is a caucasoid component, no doubt, but it's not european.


South West Asia on the other hand is clearly foreign and came mostly later it seems, also from a source further removed from Europeans - yet still Europid by race of course.
Why later ? Im pretty sure this southwest asian component in Europeans was carried by neolithic people, the near-east farmers, which is whre it peaks actually. Exactly the same times as the West-Asian component, and carried by the same people who carried haplogroups E, J, etc. This component is highest in greeks and italians, and coincidently, these are the places with highest J and E of Europe.



The Basques are an isolate which in itself can hardly be representative of Europeans now or thousands of years ago, considering that they are non-Indo-Europeans...

well, that's not true. Paternally they are very indo-european, having 90% of haplogroup R1b-M269. Plus, the isolation factor is not an explanation of why the basques lack the west-asian component.

[Sikeliot]

The West Asian component reaches 30% in both Greeks and southern Italians (and up to 40% in people from Crete), which are areas that are the most Neolithic in Europe (also Albania would likely be similar but I haven't seen data for them) and have the most of haplogroups E and J as stated above.

[Agrippa]

South West Asian cluster has a higher drag toward SSA Africa than any other Caucasoid cluster safe for the Berber one.

That is for sure, considering the geographical proximity and history of the region and populations, it makes perfect sense.


Though it seems to be distantly related to the Med component, and not the West Asian cluster, since the West Asian cluster seems to be related distantly to the North European cluster, but it does not show a drag to SSA Africa.

Well, that's the important point I referred to. Modern Europeans, especially the Indo-European component, is largely a mix of West Asian + Mesolithic Eastern Europeans.

If you can distinguish the archaic Mesolithic component of the fringe regions, isolate it, you get a Northern component which is closest to West Asian.


Today the South West Asian cluster peaks in the Bedouins, Saudis, Yemeni Jews and Iraqis who usually score from 100% to 85% South West Asian.

That is the Afro-Asiatic/Semitic group.


Reaching Northern Iraq it falls dramatically to the West Asian cluster. It's one of the very unique "West Eurasian" clusters, and as well most distant to Europeans.

Indeed, because the Northern Near Eastern component is very close to Europeans and was much more so before becoming mixed with different elements, like South West Asians.


Then we should apply the same to other components, like the Southwest-asian. In conclusion, you are confusing caucasoid with european. Yes, west-asian is a caucasoid component, no doubt, but it's not european.

It is one of the larger components in Europe, so you might say it WAS coming from somewhere else, but so did the other components to a large degree too.
Don't forget, just because the other components were essentially cut off doesn't mean they were present in Europe so much longer...


Why later ? Im pretty sure this southwest asian component in Europeans was carried by neolithic people, the near-east farmers, which is whre it peaks actually. Exactly the same times as the West-Asian component, and carried by the same people who carried haplogroups E, J, etc. This component is highest in greeks and italians, and coincidently, these are the places with highest J and E of Europe.

Well, probably not only later, but also along different pathways. It is typical however, that the overlap between these two components is far from complete, with some regions having much higher West Asian : South West Asian ratios than others and vice versa.

It seems quite obvious to me, that a large portion of West Asian and related elements, now already merged into the "Northern coloniser group", therefore tearing it towards West Asian, while the "Fringe groups" being further removed from it, came early on, even in the Mesolithic and spread strongly on the land route, early on.

While the West Asian had more a spread along the coastal routes and presumably later. This is just my suggestion based on various factors, but it might be proven someday :)

This is one of the maps showing the distribution of J1:
http://www.anthropometry.info/Haplogroup_J1.jpg

Further inland it came mainly along the Danube, otherwise it is practically everywhere coastal.

I'm pretty sure South West Asian will correspond more to that, than to the standard Neolithic markers of the West Asian group.


well, that's not true. Paternally they are very indo-european, having 90% of haplogroup R1b-M269. Plus, the isolation factor is not an explanation of why the basques lack the west-asian component.

So, what else do you think is the reason?

All Indo-Europeans seem to have two components: Northern European (Eastern European) and West Asian.

Everything else varies from region to region...

And how do you know that R1b-M269 must have been Indo-European?

A group with 90 percent of another group's parternal lineages would be much more likely to actually become part of that or so heavily influenced in language and culture...

[Ibericus]

Well, I don't see the relation between the west-asian and northern european components. The levantines, like Syrians, have 50% of west-asian yet 0% of northern-european. How do you explain that ? On the other hand, Basques lack any west or southwest asian, yet they are 40% northern-european. Im pretty sure the west-asian and southwest component came to Europe at about the same period. The known least neolithic countries in Europe, like Spain or Portugal, have also the least west-asian of all Western Europe. While the known countries with more neolithic admixture have the highest west-asian (Sicilians, South-Italians, Greeks, Balkans). Also, the least southwestasian of all southern Europe is in Spain.

[Sikeliot]

Southwest Asian confuses me, because it's higher in Central Italy even than in Greece, and I've seen some Northern Italians with more SW Asian than some Greeks.. and then Sicilians and south Italians have in some cases 18-20% of this component but their frequency of haplogroup J1 is what, 5%? Almost makes me wonder if we should look to mtdna for the answer instead.

[alzo zero]

This component is highest in greeks and italians, and coincidently, these are the places with highest J and E of Europe.
Just wondering what haplogroup is associated with the African components instead (in Europe highest among the Iberians).


Southwest Asian confuses me, because it's higher in Central Italy even than in Greece, and I've seen some Northern Italians with more SW Asian than some Greeks..
Who?

[Ibericus]

Just wondering what haplogroup is associated with the African components instead (in Europe highest among the Iberians)
:confused: And what the fuck has this anything to do with the west-asian component that we were talking about ?

[alzo zero]

:confused: And what the fuck has this anything to do with the west-asian component that we were talking about ?
No need to swear my excitable friend. Some (most) clades of E are almost exclusively African so it's better to make it explicit with what kind of E we are dealing with.

[Ibericus]

No need to swear my excitable friend. Some (most) clades of E are almost exclusively African so it's better to make it explicit with what kind of E we are dealing with.
It's quite obvious that we are dealing with the kind of E found in Europe, because we were talking about europeans, not about africans. Please, read the thread before embarrassing yourself.

[alzo zero]

Please, read the thread before embarrassing yourself.
Sorry if I upset you. Agrippa has already schooled you enough so I wouldn't be speaking about "embarassing" one's self if I were you. :)

[Ibericus]

Sorry if I upset you. Agrippa has already schooled you enough so I wouldn't be speaking about "embarassing" one's self if I were you. :)
We were actually agreeing pretty much in everything we said. No schooling whatsoever dude. It's about having different interpretations, not about schooling anyone. Even scientists don't agree between them.

[Agrippa]

Well, I don't see the relation between the west-asian and northern european components. The levantines, like Syrians, have 50% of west-asian yet 0% of northern-european. How do you explain that ?

The West Asian area is a very old cradle of the Europid race, so more than one wave left it at different times, never forget that.

So an earlier wave was melted into the "Northern colonisers", a later being still better recognisable - and a lot stood behind.

You get it? There were waves of distinguished Northern strains back too, but the major movements went in one direction, from the West Asian cradle in all directions.


On the other hand, Basques lack any west or southwest asian, yet they are 40% northern-european.

I would like to know what exact kind of Northern European, because the longer term isolation and drift made them special, hard to split up like Sardinians.

Yet I guess they have their fair share of the early Mesolithic colonisers from the East, those which, most likely, brought the R1b too.

How the West Asian component was crucial in forming the racially and culturally more progressive "Northern colonisers" might be explainable through this archaeologically researched process:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=325983&postcount=22


Im pretty sure the west-asian and southwest component came to Europe at about the same period.

Do you think the South West Asian came through the Caucasus into Eastern Europe, especially the Black Sea region, in the late Mesolithic and early Neolithic?


The known least neolithic countries in Europe, like Spain or Portugal, have also the least west-asian of all Western Europe. While the known countries with more neolithic admixture have the highest west-asian (Sicilians, South-Italians, Greeks, Balkans). Also, the least southwestasian of all southern Europe is in Spain.

Spain is highly differentiated by regions in this respect though.

Ever looked at the individual results of general samples or Dodecad participants?

Also, Belorussians have about as much West Asian, but much less South West Asian than the Spaniards.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-PQgoNZLt0JM/TeXoeutcLjI/AAAAAAAAAgw/ZEKJSTyDTFs/s1600/ADMIXTURE_10.png

Also compare the 12-component analysis, only Basque is slightly closer to North Western in this run than West Asian, this shows a very clear relation:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-po3ry04KyLo/TbniIYg6VbI/AAAAAAAAAco/a4_OF8k5gGk/s1600/ADMIXTURE_12.png

Whereas North Eastern became more of a representant of the fringe-archaic Mesolithics in it, being fairly distant from virtually all the rest, but still closest to NW, which is the "early coloniser component" with different roots-closer relations (especially Basque, West Asian, Sardinian) in this run in my opinion.

Also note that West Asian was shrinking, with more of it being inclusive in North Western I guess.

Note the different ratios of WA vs. SWA then.

I think some things will be just revealed if more of the ancient DNA was tested, like here:
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/y-chromosome-mtdna-and-autosomal-dna.html

[Ibericus]

Do you think the South West Asian came through the Caucasus into Eastern Europe, especially the Black Sea region, in the late Mesolithic and early Neolithic?
No, I don't think, because the Caucasas have small SWA. The southwest-asian came from the near-east, from areas already high in West-asian component, such as levantines, mesopotamians.



Also, Belorussians have about as much West Asian, but much less South West Asian than the Spaniards.
They have more west-asian because they are much closer to the area of neolithic invasions. We are probably dealing with different routes, one north of the caucasus towards the rest of Europe, and another route via Anatolia towards the Balkans and Central-Europe. The southwest asian in spaniards, which is very small at least for south-european standards, it's probably due to a combination of Romans, and ancient neolithic movements through the sea.

[Agrippa]

No, I don't think, because the Caucasas have small SWA.

Yet I would guess, in the crucial late Mesolithic and early Neolithic period, they hadn't...

[Loki]

Well, I don't see the relation between the west-asian and northern european components. The levantines, like Syrians, have 50% of west-asian yet 0% of northern-european. How do you explain that ? On the other hand, Basques lack any west or southwest asian, yet they are 40% northern-european. Im pretty sure the west-asian and southwest component came to Europe at about the same period. The known least neolithic countries in Europe, like Spain or Portugal, have also the least west-asian of all Western Europe. While the known countries with more neolithic admixture have the highest west-asian (Sicilians, South-Italians, Greeks, Balkans). Also, the least southwestasian of all southern Europe is in Spain.

So in a nutshell, because Iberia has little neolithic influence, you now feel obliged to call other Europeans "non-European" in order to elevate your own grouping. This is nonsense. European culture and civilization was formed and spread by neolithic Greek culture. What is more European than that?

[Ibericus]

So in a nutshell, because Iberia has little neolithic influence, you now feel obliged to call other Europeans "non-European" in order to elevate your own grouping. This is nonsense. European culture and civilization was formed and spread by neolithic Greek culture. What is more European than that?
No, im not calling other non-europeans, only the west-asian component, otherwise we might also consider the southwest asian as european, when the two came in about the same period, and outside of Europe. The west-asian component is representative of ancient Anatolian/caucasus/Iranid populations.

[Loki]

No, im not calling other non-europeans, only the west-asian component, otherwise we might also consider the southwest asian as european, when the two came in about the same period, and outside of Europe. The west-asian component is representative of ancient Anatolian/caucasus/Iranid populations.

Well that is the same. Many, if not most, Europeans seem to have 10-15% West Asian. So ... we are all mongrels and not pure Europeans, except for the glorious Spaniards?

So you mean to say that classical European civilization was essentially Iranid? Ahmadinejad would be pleased.

[StonyArabia]

That is for sure, considering the geographical proximity and history of the region and populations, it makes perfect sense.

Yes indeed.



Well, that's the important point I referred to. Modern Europeans, especially the Indo-European component, is largely a mix of West Asian + Mesolithic Eastern Europeans.

The West Asian cluster is the closest to Europeans and especially Northern European component, and unlike the South West Asian component it's not dragged into SSA Africa. This does seem to be the case for the most part.


If you can distinguish the archaic Mesolithic component of the fringe regions, isolate it, you get a Northern component which is closest to West Asian.

Indeed West Asian component does seem to have strong relationship to the Northern European component. What is interesting about it does not fall anywhere else or draged into other places, but rather into Europe. Showing a close relationship between West Asians and Europeans. Today the most European looking people outside of Europe tend to live in the Caucasus.


That is the Afro-Asiatic/Semitic group.

These groups mentioned Bedouins, Yemenite Jews, Saudis, and Iraqis score very high levels of the South West Asian component some are even 100% a large number, and some have higher but no less than 85%.



Indeed, because the Northern Near Eastern component is very close to Europeans and was much more so before becoming mixed with different elements, like South West Asians.

What is interesting it seems to fall once it hits Northern Iraq and Syria even among the Arab populations, and in Anatolia and other regions there is very minimal of the South West Asian component. In the Caucasus it becomes 0%. The expansion of the South West Asian component might be linked to the spread of the Semitic languages that might have originated in Arabia.


Well that is the same. Many, if not most, Europeans seem to have 10-15% West Asian.

The West Asian is probably the closest West Eurasian cluster outside of Europe and they are the closest people related to Europeans. It's the South West Asian cluster that is very distantly related to Europeans, and it peaks heavily among Arabians but it dwindles in the Northern Middle East.

[Agrippa]

I'm pretty confident that some of the most "West Asian" people which ever lived were those of the higher Neolithic culture represented by sites like that of Çatalhöyük - racially they were mostly (Proto-) Mediterranoid with an Alpinoid minority, similar to the finds mentioned North of the Caucasus in Mesolithic times already, if talking about the "new colonisers".

[Transhumanist]

Well, I don't see the relation between the west-asian and northern european components. The levantines, like Syrians, have 50% of west-asian yet 0% of northern-european. How do you explain that ? On the other hand, Basques lack any west or southwest asian, yet they are 40% northern-european. Im pretty sure the west-asian and southwest component came to Europe at about the same period.

I do not necessarily disagree with you on your point, in bold, above. Just one correction. Syrians have less than 40% "West Asian." Assyrians (Mesopotamian Christians), and the one Iraqi Mandaean (DOD460), carry the 50% "West Asian" and 0% "North European" combination.

Dodecad average values

POP W_Asia Nw_Afri S_Euro Ne_Asi Sw_Asi E_Asia N_Euro W_Afri E_Afri S_Asia
KSA 12.2 0.8 3.9 0.1 76.7 0.1 0.2 1.4 2.6 2
EGY 19.1 7.7 15.3 0.1 38.9 0.1 0 4.1 14.7 0
JOR 31.3 3.8 19.2 0.3 33.9 0.2 0.3 2.4 7.3 1.3
SYR 37.2 1.4 19 0.4 33.1 0.5 1.1 1.6 2.7 3
PAL 29.6 3.6 28.1 0.1 28.8 0.2 0.5 1.7 6.9 0.5
EAF 1.6 3.2 1.9 0 26.5 0 0 0 66.9 0
DRZ 37.4 1.1 34.4 0 24.8 0.1 0.6 0 1.2 0.3
ASY 51 0 23 0 24 0 0 0 0 1.8
MAN 50.4 0 21.4 0.3 24 0 0 0 0 3.9
CYP 39.1 0.3 35.5 0 23.7 0.1 1.2 0 0.1 0
ASJ 27 2 35 0.6 21 0.8 15 0 0.1 0.1

Assyrian Dodecad population = 12.

[poiuytrewq0987]

I wonder what is the difference between West Asian (Neolithic?) and South European.

[Agrippa]

I wonder what is the difference between West Asian (Neolithic?) and South European.

Like suggested probably Southern European refugia + earlier coloniser waves + the isolated samples used for Sardinians and Basque as standard vs. later and Eastern colonisers from West Asia.

[Transhumanist]

I recognize this is a European focused forum, but since it is very relevant to the question of our nomenclature (the subject of my previous post), I thought some may find of interest the results I received today of my father's Dr. McDonald analysis. The "South Asian" may in part be due to our proselytizing and ancient relationship with the St. Thomas Christians of Kerala*, beginning in the 4th century of the CE. The "European" segment may also be associated in some way with early Christianity. But, there exists the very real possibility it is even more ancient. The majority Subarian** component (Ninevite? + Hurrian?) comes as no surprise.


Most likely fit is 14.7% (+- 8.8%) Mideast (various subcontinents)
and 79.5% (+- 8.5%) Mideast (all Caucasus Area)
which is 94.3% total Mideast
and 0.6% (+- 0.8%) Europe (various subcontinents)
and 5.1% (+- 1.0%) S. Asia (various subcontinents)

The following are possible population sets and their fractions, most likely at the top:

Bedouin = 0.098 Armenian= 0.860 Finland= 0.000 S_India= 0.042
Bedouin = 0.101 Armenian= 0.845 Sardinia= 0.009 S_India= 0.045
Bedouin = 0.101 Armenian= 0.851 Finland= 0.000 N_India= 0.047
Bedouin = 0.102 Armenian= 0.848 Basque= 0.001 N_India= 0.048
Bedouin = 0.108 Armenian= 0.826 Sardinia= 0.014 N_India= 0.052
Bedouin = 0.113 Armenian= 0.790 Sardinia= 0.025 Sindhi= 0.071
Bedouin = 0.099 Armenian= 0.845 Lithuani= 0.000 Sindhi= 0.055
Bedouin = 0.107 Armenian= 0.824 Basque= 0.009 Sindhi= 0.060
Druze= 0.351 Armenian= 0.592 Chuvash= 0.000 Sindhi= 0.057
Druze= 0.293 Armenian= 0.673 Tuscan= 0.000 S_India= 0.034

*Mar Thoma: The Apostolic Foundation of the Assyrian Church and the Christians of St. Thomas in India (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDYQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aina.org%2Farticles%2Fmissick .pdf&ei=Y-PqTeKxGcbr0gGCkq2jAQ&usg=AFQjCNH2r2gECVrMn4ejR0h2x6zBXdViDw)



**Most scholars accept Subartu as an early name for Assyria proper on the Tigris, although there are various other theories placing it sometimes a little farther to the east, north or west of there.

Subartu was listed as a province of the empire of Lugal-Anne-Mundu; in a later era Sargon of Akkad campaigned against Subar, and Naram-Sin listed Subar along with the Armani (~Armenians), among the lands under his control.

[Imperivm]

DOD726
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_Iss3ibZxhc/Te372le4mBI/AAAAAAAAD1U/sSvekwCahkI/s1600/ADMIXTURE_DOD713_DOD728_10.png

West Asian = 11.6%
South European = 31%
North European = 57.4%

I gather West Asian represents something similar to the Baltic group in Eurogenes?

[Olavsson]

I gather West Asian represents something similar to the Baltic group in Eurogenes?

That would be rather weird when thinking of my own results from both projects. My Dodecad 'West Asian' score is 10% (the Norwegian average is 7% if I remember it correctly), while my 'Baltic' scores in the intra-North European runs by Eurogenes are 0%, which is lower than the Norwegian average.

[Imperivm]

That would be rather weird when thinking of my own results from both projects. My Dodecad 'West Asian' score is 10% (the Norwegian average is 7% if I remember it correctly), while my 'Baltic' scores in the intra-North European runs by Eurogenes are 0%, which is lower than the Norwegian average.

Humm, ok.

I was just guessing really. I haven't read the thread through yet to see how the test works.

[Agrippa]

DOD726
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-_Iss3ibZxhc/Te372le4mBI/AAAAAAAAD1U/sSvekwCahkI/s1600/ADMIXTURE_DOD713_DOD728_10.png

West Asian = 11.6%
South European = 31%
North European = 57.4%

I gather West Asian represents something similar to the Baltic group in Eurogenes?

That's not the intention, but since no West Asian is present in the Northern European analysis, it could go there, since the Southern component in Eurogenes is primarily Western, would be generally interesting to compare the different analysis directly...

[Sikeliot]

The "Southern European" is basically a combination of Sardinian and Basque, is it not?

[Efim45]

Most likely fit is 14.7% (+- 8.8%) Mideast (various subcontinents)
and 79.5% (+- 8.5%) Mideast (all Caucasus Area)
which is 94.3% total Mideast
and 0.6% (+- 0.8%) Europe (various subcontinents)
and 5.1% (+- 1.0%) S. Asia (various subcontinents)
Goes to show that even if Assyrians can look European, they are not. Must be the same with Albanians.

[Sikeliot]

Goes to show that even if Assyrians can look European, they are not. Must be the same with Albanians.

Albanians are European (and if I had to guess, probably very similar genetically to Greeks but maybe slightly more Northern influence). Parts of their culture aren't.

[Ibericus]

The "Southern European" is basically a combination of Sardinian and Basque, is it not?
In the K=12 the basques and sardinians had their own clusters, but in the standard K=10 the Basques are about 60% South and 40% North

[Transhumanist]

Goes to show that even if Assyrians can look European, they are not.

Agreed.

[Agrippa]

Goes to show that even if Assyrians can look European, they are not. Must be the same with Albanians.

Even if going after phenotypes, we deal with frequency differences most of the time, but WHICH ONES!

I mean how many Syrians can pass as Europeans vs. how many Europeans looking typically Syrian?

There is an overlap, but the populations as a whole are obviously different and in the whole Eastern Mediterranean are more people which could pass as European, than vice versa.

Because European-like elements are wider spread in the Near East, than typical Near Eastern ones in Europe, that is crucial.

[Sikeliot]

Because European-like elements are wider spread in the Near East, than typical Near Eastern ones in Europe, that is crucial.

I agree. And even at that, it's not so much that these Near Easterners look typically European but rather that their phenotypes are part of the variability of some Southern European ethnicities. It's harder to find Europeans looking characteristically Near Eastern, unless you go to Malta of course. ;)

[Ushtari]

Albanians are European (and if I had to guess, probably very similar genetically to Greeks but maybe slightly more Northern influence). Parts of their culture aren't.
Not really the right thread for it, but hey dont blame me! you brought it up!!

Care to explain that?

[Sikeliot]

Not really the right thread for it, but hey dont blame me! you brought it up!!

Care to explain that?

79.9% Muslim, 20.0% Christian.

[Ushtari]

79.9% Muslim, 20.0% Christian.
I dont understand what this have to do with our culture? How come you, as a Portuguese, who never have been in Albania or have read anything about our culture, make such conclusion?

[Sikeliot]

I wasn't the one to first say Albanians are not European. So don't take this up with me.

[Ushtari]

I wasn't the one to first say Albanians are not European. So don't take this up with me.
https://static.flashback.org/img/smilies2/whoco5.gif


Albanians are European (and if I had to guess, probably very similar genetically to Greeks but maybe slightly more Northern influence). Parts of their culture aren't.

As for Efim, he is a well known troll around, but you?

[Sikeliot]

I'll message you, so as to not ruin this thread.

[Efim45]

You are correct, Portuguese Princess, Albanians are muslims!

[Transhumanist]

Neighbor Joining Tree (Euclidean distance), based on Dodecad v2 K=12 (http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/06/dodecad-v2.html) ADMIXTURE component values for populations:


The 12 components are:
West_Asian
East_European
West_European
East_Asian
Mediterranean
Northwest_African
North_Eurasian
Arabian
Inner_Asian
Sub_Saharan
East_African
South_Indian

[Sikeliot]

Everything makes sense to me except;

1) Why the Spanish and Portuguese look closer to Germans than the French?
2) Why S. Italians/Sicilians are isolated?
3) Why Siberians and SE Asians and that group look so close to Ethiopians?

Unless I'm reading it wrong.

[Ibericus]

The spaniards have 0.9% Arabian, which is less than that of British Isles, Germans, French, American-Whites, Dutch, Balkans, Scandinavians, etc. But we are supposed to be half arabs right ?

[Sikeliot]

The spaniards have 0.9% Arabian, which is less than that of British Isles, Germans, French, American-Whites, Dutch, Balkans, Scandinavians, etc. But we are supposed to be half arabs right ?

Oh I know! Interestingly enough we all appear quite close to Germans at least on that chart. ;)

[poiuytrewq0987]

% of Arabian in Scandinavians (1.5%) is higher than Spaniards (0.9%). :laugh:

[poiuytrewq0987]

Can someone shed some light on what Mediterranean is supposed to mean genetics-wise? :coffee:

[Transhumanist]

Everything makes sense to me except;

1) Why the Spanish and Portuguese look closer to Germans than the French?
2) Why S. Italians/Sicilians are isolated?
3) Why Siberians and SE Asians and that group look so close to Ethiopians?

Unless I'm reading it wrong.

Hi cmariexo. This is not an actual phylogeny. Just a quick and simple way to display how populations relate to one another based on their component percentages. Serves as a rough guide. That is all.

After removing some of the African and Asian populations:

[Ibericus]

European score (Med + East Euro + West Euro) ranking of all europeans :


Lithuanians
Baltic_Various_D
Polish_D
Belorussian
Scandinavian_D
British_D
French_D
German_D
Irish_D
Spaniards
Dutch_D
CEU
French
British_Isles_D
Spanish_D
Mixed_Slav_D
North_Italian
Germanic_Various_D
Hungarians
N_Italian_D
Finnish_D
Russian_D
Balkans_D
Portuguese_D
Russian
Romanians
Tuscan
C_Italian_D
Greek_D
S_Italian_D
Sicilian_D
S_Italian_Sicilian_D

[Olavsson]

I'm looking forwards to seeing my new K=12 results! :thumb001:

[Olavsson]

% of Arabian in Scandinavians (1.5%) is higher than Spaniards (0.9%). :laugh:

Yeah, but the African scores of the Spaniards are higher. :icon_cool:

[Pallantides]

Me to... I want to know how Arabic I am!:D

[Osweo]

Are there any frequency maps for each of the (seemingly rather arbitrary) components used in all this? You know, ones that indicate the relative concentration of elements across their distribution... I can't really visualise it, otherwise. :p

[Polako]

European score (Med + East Euro + West Euro) ranking of all europeans :


Lithuanians
Baltic_Various_D
Polish_D
Belorussian
Scandinavian_D
British_D
French_D
German_D
Irish_D
Spaniards
Dutch_D
CEU
French
British_Isles_D
Spanish_D
Mixed_Slav_D
North_Italian
Germanic_Various_D
Hungarians
N_Italian_D
Finnish_D
Russian_D
Balkans_D
Portuguese_D
Russian
Romanians
Tuscan
C_Italian_D
Greek_D
S_Italian_D
Sicilian_D
S_Italian_Sicilian_D


It's hard to beat those damn Letts in this business. But I think if more Northern Poland was sampled, we'd give them a better run for their money.

[Polako]

^ Oops, I meant Liths not Letts.

[Ibericus]

It's hard to beat those damn Letts in this business. But I think if more Northern Poland was sampled, we'd give them a better run for their money.
Only swarthy Basques can beat them

[Frederick]

Are there any frequency maps for each of the (seemingly rather arbitrary) components used in all this? You know, ones that indicate the relative concentration of elements across their distribution... I can't really visualise it, otherwise. :p

I did a map (crudely by hand/photoshop) of the 6 components that affect me
http://img685.imageshack.us/img685/5734/patterns.jpg

It may help you a little bit to imagine the "overall picture"

PS:
Its:
North West, North East, Mediteranean
BAsque, Southwest Asian, West Asian

[Polako]

Only swarthy Basques can beat them

Perhaps, but we only have the small French Basque sample, which might be so inbred that it's useless in this context.

It certainly looks as if Lithuanians and Northern (and North/Central) Poles are the purest Europeans. Based on what I've seen anyway.

[Ibericus]

Perhaps, but we only have the small French Basque sample, which might be so inbred that it's useless in this context.

It certainly looks as if Lithuanians and Northern (and North/Central) Poles are the purest Europeans. Based on what I've seen anyway.


In this study there were spanish basques (I don't know if the samples are available) and they also clustered with french basques :

http://web.bioinformatics.cicbiogune.es/GAP/pdf/Rodriguez-Ezpeleta-2010-HumGen.pdf
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TAUQ1CnFpYI/AAAAAAAACaQ/XIcWhWjZ09A/s1600/basques.jpg

[Polako]

^ French Basques appear like a subset of Spanish Basques on that PCA. So it seems as if Spanish Basques do have more genetic diversity (ie. they might be less of an isolate). In which case, their admixture results might look different, and closer to the Spanish average.

[Transhumanist]

I recognize this is a European focused forum, but since it is very relevant to the question of our nomenclature (the subject of my previous post), I thought some may find of interest the results I received today of my father's Dr. McDonald analysis. The "South Asian" may in part be due to our proselytizing and ancient relationship with the St. Thomas Christians of Kerala*, beginning in the 4th century of the CE. The "European" segment may also be associated in some way with early Christianity. But, there exists the very real possibility it is even more ancient. The majority Subarian** component (Ninevite? + Hurrian?) comes as no surprise.

*Mar Thoma: The Apostolic Foundation of the Assyrian Church and the Christians of St. Thomas in India (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=4&ved=0CDYQFjAD&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.aina.org%2Farticles%2Fmissick .pdf&ei=Y-PqTeKxGcbr0gGCkq2jAQ&usg=AFQjCNH2r2gECVrMn4ejR0h2x6zBXdViDw)

The Dr. McDonald results of the Iraqi Mandaean appear to cast doubt on the speculated Kerala Christian origin (at least principally) of my father's predicted South Asian segments. The Mandaean, interestingly, has even greater (albeit slightly) predicted possible European ADMIX. What I find most interesting, though, is the location of his red dot. It is, as with the brown dot, within close proximity to my father's spots. Is it a possible signal of back-migration from the general area of the two red spots, in ancient times? Although it may not have any specific thing to do with the position of the red dots, I could not help but think of the recent aDNA paper on Late Neolithic farmers in southern France (http://www.pnas.org/content/108/24/9788).

The first attachment is a map containing the combined dots for my father and the Iraqi Mandaean. The second attachment is a map of modern Iraq (among other nations), with points "A" and "B" representing the approximate center points of the McDonald green dots for my father and the Iraqi Mandaean respectively. The third attachment is the entire approximate green dot of the Mandaean, including Assyrian city names and one Hurrian city name (Nuzi), most of which (if they still exist) have since been changed by the Arabs and Kurds. If you have read my posts on ABF, you likely know of my speculation regarding the origins of the Iraqi Mandaeans. I have stated, it is possible, Iraqi Mandaeans are the best preserved remnants of the Assyro-Babylonian religious caste. My father's center spot is a bit (~45 miles) northeast of the Assyrian capital of Nineveh (modern Mosul). The Iraqi Mandaean's spot, despite living for possibly the better part of the last 2000 years in extreme southern Iraq, is situated nearly due east, by roughly 110 miles, of the ancient center of the Assyrian religion, and also former capital, Assur/Ashur.

[Transhumanist]

Not surprised he ditched v2. Figured something was up given the lack of updates over the course of the last week or two:

The design of Dodecad v3 (http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2011/06/design-of-dodecad-v3.html)

Dodecad v2 was short-lived, as I discovered a way to improve it shortly after I announced it.

I attached something I posted over at ABF, in case anyone here has an interest in viewing. It is an image of the Dodecad v3 K=12 population averages for the Near East and a few other populations in the general area.

[Transhumanist]

PCA based on most of the v3 population averages thus far reported:

[Ibericus]

PCA based on most of the v3 population averages thus far reported:
Interesting. Spaniards seem closer to Germanics than to Greeks/South Italians.

[alzo zero]

Interesting. Spaniards seem closer to Germanics than to Greeks/South Italians.
We knew all along that you guys were aryan ubermenschen we just need to look at you, you're beating a dead horse. :rolleyes:

[Transhumanist]

Interesting. Spaniards seem closer to Germanics than to Greeks/South Italians.

Distances between populations on the PCA do not necessarily represent true genetic distances. I am not saying you are incorrect. Simply, that we cannot reach that conclusion based solely on the results of a PCA of ADMIXTURE component percentages.

[alzo zero]

Distances between populations on the PCA do not necessarily represent true genetic distances. I am not saying you are incorrect. Simply, that we cannot reach that conclusion based solely on the results of a PCA of ADMIXTURE component percentages.
Is there a Northern Italian sample as well? Do you know where are the "C_Italian_D" from by any chance?

[Sikeliot]

Interesting. Spaniards seem closer to Germanics than to Greeks/South Italians.

And big surprise.. the Spanish are closest to the French (and if northern Italians were on there, you'd see the usual clustering situation).

[Transhumanist]

Is there a Northern Italian sample as well? Do you know where are the "C_Italian_D" from by any chance?

I do not recall if he has a Dodecad North Italian population. He, of course, does have the Behar North Italian population to use. I unfortunately am not familiar with the origins of the samples comprising the "C_Italian_D" population.

Added a few more populations. Not to be taken too seriously. It is a decent rough guide. For example, Spanish and Portuguese have shown to be closely related genetically, as have Assyrians and Armenians.

[Ibericus]

Is there a Northern Italian sample as well? Do you know where are the "C_Italian_D" from by any chance?
C_Italian are Central Italians. There are also two North Italian samples, the one from Bergamo (Behar et al.) and the one from north-italian members.

[Ibericus]

lol , seems also this time Scandinavians are a bit more arabic than Spaniards, they have 2% Southwest Asian and Spaniards 1.8 % , new spreadsheet. (https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyN nc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0)

[Sikeliot]

The Spanish are almost as Western European as they are Mediterranean.. and all other components are very minor.

[Transhumanist]

Some more populations added:

[Agrippa]

lol , seems also this time Scandinavians are a bit more arabic than Spaniards, they have 2% Southwest Asian and Spaniards 1.8 % , new spreadsheet. (https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadDUyeEtjNnBmY09EbnowN3M3UWRyN nc&hl=en_US&authkey=COCa89AJ#gid=0)

All populations North of a certain line seem to have less South West Asian, Dutch, German, Mixed Germanic, British - all other Germanics too.

But Swedes and Norwegians both have more (2 percent).

That is rather strange to my eyes and needs an explanation, this or that way.

[d3cimat3d]

That is rather strange to my eyes and needs an explanation, this or that way.

Well, hI broke off from hJ some while ago. Could have something to do with that.

[Agrippa]

Well, hI broke off from hJ some while ago. Could have something to do with that.

What do you mean with that?

[d3cimat3d]

What do you mean with that?

I was saying that since haplogroup I and haplogroup J diverged from the same haplogroup some 25,000-30,000 years BP that this could be why Swedes have some S-W Asian on dodecad.

http://i53.tinypic.com/2j3sd2f.jpg

On a second thought, I doubt that's actually the reason why.:p

[Agrippa]

On a second thought, I doubt that's actually the reason why.:p

I doubt it too ;)