The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe

[Tschaikisten]

New big study!

The Genomic History Of Southeastern Europe (http://biorxiv.org/content/early/2017/05/09/135616)
Y and MtDNA samples list and results
(http://biorxiv.org/highwire/filestream/40047/field_highwire_adjunct_files/1/135616-2.xlsx)

[Peterski]

Is there any I2a-Din or R1a in pre-Medieval Balkan samples?

[Tschaikisten]

Is there any I2a-Din or R1a in pre-Medieval Balkan samples?
There is one R1a in Bronze age Bulgaria I think.
R1b in Lepenski Vir, d' fuck! xD

[Coolguy1]

im seeing many r1a's and i2's in the Balkans, seems like we have to rethink the impact of the Slavic migrations

[Tschaikisten]

im seeing many r1a's and i2's in the Balkans, seems like we have to rethink the impact of the Slavic migrations

It's I2-M223 in Mesolithic Balkan, far away from Dinaric subclade.
Can not wait to see Bosniak reaction :pound:

[Coolguy1]

It's I2-M223 in Mesolithic Balkan, far away from Dinaric subclade.
Can not wait to see Bosniak reaction :pound:

Is that the clade found predominantly in Sardinia? Even if so, r1a seems to have preceded the Slavic migrations. I guess the only true Slavic marker is the dinaric clade.

[Tschaikisten]

Is that the clade found predominantly in Sardinia? Even if so, r1a seems to have preceded the Slavic migrations. I guess the only true Slavic marker is the dinaric clade.

It's predominant in German lands.
Yes, Dinaric (I2a-CTS10228) is the pure Slavic marker.

[nightrider+]

No y-dna from Peloponnese Neolithic. Autosomaly they are "south-eastern" shifted compared to other Euro farmers though.

http://i.imgur.com/UDrLmPE.png

[Petalpusher]

One interesting thing is Peloponnese_neo was already Levant shifted, like almost half LBK / Levant_neo, while it's younger than LBK, Balkan_neo and ofc Anatolia_neo. It's not only due to not have absorbed much local HG like LBK or Balkan_neo and other similar groups did, since even Anatolia_neo outside of Europe and the regular Greece_neo is more similar to LBK.

https://s10.postimg.org/5qhpwxqw9/ppsneo.png

https://s15.postimg.org/u4dknujkb/ppsneo2.png

[Tschaikisten]

One Cucuteni-Trypillian culture member Ydna is G2a-P303>L497>L43 :laugh:

[Kelmendasi]

So it seems like J2b2 was found in proto-Illyrian culture ;). No I2a1b(Din) was found which basically confirms that it isn't native there but in fact a Slavic arrival, nearly all I2a in the Balkans was I2a2. All the Bosniaks are crying right now xD

[Kelmendasi]

Is there any I2a-Din or R1a in pre-Medieval Balkan samples?
There wasn't any I2a-Din found but there was R1a which probably was part of the older Indo-European cluster

[Kelmendasi]

It's I2-M223 in Mesolithic Balkan, far away from Dinaric subclade.
Can not wait to see Bosniak reaction :pound:
I2-M223 is part of the Pre-Celtic/Germanic cluster if I am not mistaken. Yh same I can't wait to see their reactions xD

[Lek]

im seeing many r1a's and i2's in the Balkans, seems like we have to rethink the impact of the Slavic migrations

There are different subclades

[Wrong]

im seeing many r1a's and i2's in the Balkans, seems like we have to rethink the impact of the Slavic migrations
Subclades... Those are what matter.

[Kelmendasi]

There was a shit-tonne of G2a though which doesn't really surprise me

[Wrong]

There was a shit-tonne of G2a though which doesn't really surprise me
Yes, G2a was high in parts of Europe for awhile back then, but others invaded and attacked them from all directions.

[Peterski]

There is one R1a in Bronze age Bulgaria I think.

But this is R1a1a1b2, which is R1a-Z93, Indo-Iranian marker (not Balto-Slavic).

[Tschaikisten]

But this is R1a1a1b2, which is R1a-Z93, Indo-Iranian marker (not Balto-Slavic).

I haven't checked subclade :)

[Wrong]

But this is R1a1a1b2, which is R1a-Z93, Indo-Iranian marker (not Balto-Slavic).
Scythian? Then I am not surprised. I don't see many modern Euros carrying this marker anyhow, except maybe Tatars?

[Lek]

So maybe j2b2 l283 originated more north which is why some of us plot so north xD

[Ylla]

It's predominant in German lands.
Yes, Dinaric (I2a-CTS10228) is the pure Slavic marker.

Which mtDNA would you associate with Slavs?

[Lek]

But this is R1a1a1b2, which is R1a-Z93, Indo-Iranian marker (not Balto-Slavic).

pretty much proves Thracians were indo iranians

[Wrong]

Which mtDNA would you associate with Slavs?
I'd say it's harder to pinpoint migratory patterns in mtDNA.

[Jana]

Scythian? Then I am not surprised. I don't see many modern Euros carrying this marker anyhow, except maybe Tatars?

It's actually quite common among European Gypsies and some branches are Jewish-related.

[Wrong]

It's actually quite common among European Gypsies and some branches are Jewish-related.
Seems to be the case & it's rare nowadays in Europe.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/2f/a7/39/2fa739160d49273e6279b278d8fa6711.png

[Tschaikisten]

Which mtDNA would you associate with Slavs?

I'm really not interested or even expert for mtDNA, sorry. xD

[Wrong]

There is too much bullshit written by stupid fucks across this entire forum. I will make it simple: As I said before months ago and I was right, Albanians were more or less unchanged autosomally since the Bronze Age.

[Jana]

Seems to be the case & it's rare nowadays in Europe.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/2f/a7/39/2fa739160d49273e6279b278d8fa6711.png

Yep.
R1a1a1b2 (R-Z93) (Asia)
R1a1b2a2* (R-M780) occurs at high frequency in South Asia: India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and the Himalayas. The group also occurs at >3% in some Iranian populations and is present at >30% in Roma from Croatia and Hungary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a#R1a1a1b2_.28R-Z93.29_.28Asia.29

It is true Aryan marker though, Gypsies and other groups must have picked it up in contact with Indo-Iranian groups.

[blondbeast]

It's I2-M223 in Mesolithic Balkan, far away from Dinaric subclade.
Can not wait to see Bosniak reaction :pound:

If j2 Is Illyrian then what is ev13. Trako_serb?

[Wrong]

Yep.
R1a1a1b2 (R-Z93) (Asia)
R1a1b2a2* (R-M780) occurs at high frequency in South Asia: India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and the Himalayas. The group also occurs at >3% in some Iranian populations and is present at >30% in Roma from Croatia and Hungary.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a#R1a1a1b2_.28R-Z93.29_.28Asia.29

It is true Aryan marker though, Gypsies and other groups must have picked it up in contact with Indo-Aryan groups.

Is R1a-Z93 possibly related to the -Getae groups? From Central Asia to Thrace?

Marked with red circles

http://i.imgur.com/0dA3c7B.jpg

[Tschaikisten]

If j2 Is Illyrian then what is ev13. Trako_serb?

You mean J2b2-M241 and it's Euro branches can be called as a Illyrian, unlike J2b1-M205 which is more connected to Roman expansion. (https://j2-m172.info/2016/01/exogenous-roman-era-york-3drif-26-is-j2b1-m205-and-likely-middle-eastener/)
E-V13 is highly ''indoeuropeanised'' before it's expansion with Romans, Greeks, Thracians or even Germans.

[Sikeliot]

Sicilians today have some of the lowest, if not the lowest, WHG in Europe. Therefore, these samples must predate CHG genes in Europe, and imply that the original WHG population has been replaced by Near Eastern input that is comparatively recent.


"We report new data from hunter-gatherers from France, Sicily and Croatia, as well as higher
246 coverage data from three previously published hunter-gatherers from France and Germany.18
247 The Sicilian and Croatian individuals dating to 12,000 and 6100 BCE cluster closely with
248 western hunter-gatherers, including individuals from Loschbour24 (Luxembourg, 6100 BCE),
249 Bichon20 (Switzerland, 11,700 BCE), and Villabruna18 (Italy 12,000 BCE). These results
250 demonstrate that the “western hunter-gatherer” population24 was widely distributed from the
251 Atlantic seaboard of Europe in the West, to Sicily in the South, to the Balkan Peninsula in the
252 Southeast, for at least six thousand years, strengthening the evidence that the western hunter-
253 gatherers represent a population that expanded from a southeastern European refugium
254 following the last Ice Age around 15,000 years ago–in the process displacing or admixing
255 with the existing population of western Europe.18 38"

[Jana]

Is R1a-Z93 possibly related to the -Getae groups? From Central Asia to Thrace?

Marked with red circles

http://i.imgur.com/0dA3c7B.jpg

Possible :D
I also think the Bulgars must have carried some Z93, but we'd need ancient samples for that :)

[Petalpusher]

Sicilians today have some of the lowest, if not the lowest, WHG in Europe. Therefore, these samples must predate CHG genes in Europe, and imply that the original WHG population has been replaced by Near Eastern input that is comparatively recent.

The sample from Sicily is in the mesolithic, the surprising part (or not) is they were exactly like the other mesolithic WHG back then, even in Sicily, so yea extremely different than today population but that predates by long all the neolithic and bronze age influences that came much later.

[Lek]

Seems to be the case & it's rare nowadays in Europe.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/2f/a7/39/2fa739160d49273e6279b278d8fa6711.png

it is indo european most likely.

[Sikeliot]

The sample from Sicily is in the mesolithic, the surprising part (or not) is they were exactly like the other mesolithic WHG back then, even in Sicily, so yea extremely different than today population but that predates by long all the neolithic and bronze age influences that came much later.

So this means the population in Sicily as of 6000 BC has been almost completely replaced, since WHG ancestry is very low there. The next wave of migration from the Caucasus must then be the predominant one.

[blondbeast]

I'd say it's harder to pinpoint migratory patterns in mtDNA.

It's not unless you take a coding region mtdna test

[Lek]

Which mtDNA would you associate with Slavs?

U4d2, U5a1

[Tschaikisten]

Zemunica Cave, Croatia (https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=1R_jpaS0H5UqKinPpJc7b3PWqyCI&ll=46.811439185810094%2C23.27419281562493&z=4)E-L618 (7600-7470 ybp), father clade of E-V13.

[Petalpusher]

So this means the population in Sicily as of 6000 BC has been almost completely replaced, since WHG ancestry is very low there. The next wave of migration from the Caucasus must then be the predominant one.

It's the case for anybody in any country, just the replacement here was likely total in the last 6000 years. Im not that surprised though they were WHG's roaming in Sicily like everywhere else even if it might be hard to imagine in our modern conceptions, Europe was extremely homogeneous in that era.

They still have some HG related ancestry but less than even Sardinia, so the likely scenario was total replacement of the WHG's by neolithic (who carried some early branch of HG), then another layer on top of something in the Copper Age - Bronze Age but genetically very different from the Beakers or steppe like people and whith no re emergence of local HG like in most parts of Europe. The last stage probably explains most of the difference we see today in the continent.


As for Greece, it was the first thing that caught my eyes on the pca and admix run, now im actually reading the paper, it's explained further there :


Early Greek Neolithic was different: "four southern Greek (Peloponnese) Neolithic individuals – three from Diros Cave and onefrom Franchthi Cave, plus one previously published individual from Diros – are not consistent with descending from the same source population as other European farmers...have less WHG related ancestry than Anatolia Neolithic ones...suggesting an independent migration into Europe from a population that split off from the ancestors of the northwest Anatolian individuals from which we have data... their Near Eastern ancestry is derived from a lineage that is close, or basal, to the non-WHG component of Anatolian Neolithic ancestry. One possibility is that this independent migration is related to an earlier Aceramic Neolithic in Greece that was derived from the pre-pottery Neolithic(PPN of Cyprus and the Levant. Under this model, the earliest Neolithic populations in Greece migrated from the Levant, perhaps via the southwestern Anatolian coast as early as7000 BCE, but the majority of Neolithic ancestry arrived around 500 years later via a route that passed through northwestern Anatolia... Populations related to the Peloponnese Neolithic potentially made a small contribution to the ancestry of other Mediterranean Neolithic populations like Early NeolithicIberia and Neolithic farmers from northern Greece but we do not strongly reject models395 without such a contribution (Supplementary Information, section 3).

[Voskos]

worth mentioning:

one I2a1 found in Serbia
2 individuals belonging to Y-DNA T in Bulgaria
one R1b Z2105 in Croatia

[Tschaikisten]

Father clade of I2a Dinaric :laugh:
cosmoo gothic stronk
http://i.imgur.com/FS2n3po.png

[Lek]

worth mentioning:

one I2a1 found in Serbia
2 individuals belonging to Y-DNA T in Bulgaria
one R1b Z2105 in Croatia

what subclade of i2a1 and T

[Voskos]

@Tee

I2a1 P37.2, ancestor of I-M423

and T1a1

[Kelmendasi]

,,,

[Jackson78]

what subclade of i2a1 and T

It is not known.

But probably it is some I2a1b?

[Kelmendasi]

,,

[cosmoo]

Father clade of I2a Dinaric :laugh:
cosmoo gothic stronk
http://i.imgur.com/FS2n3po.png
DAKINGINDANORF confirmed?

@Tee

I2a1 P37.2, ancestor of I-M423

and T1a1
I2a1 P37.2 is ancestor to many different branches which are separated by more than 18.000 years, not just to M423, which was far, far from Serbia at the time.

[Tschaikisten]

DAKINGINDANORF confirmed?

I1 KINGINDASWAMPS


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ff35SjsN7g0&feature=youtu.be&t=83

[War Chef]

I can't see the paper, what haplogroups was Cucuteni-Tryptilians mostly? G2a?

[Tschaikisten]

I can't see the paper, what haplogroups was Cucuteni-Tryptilians mostly? G2a?

1 G2a-P303>L497>L43, 2 G2a-P303, 1 G2a.
Waiting for raw data to analyse it better.

[Kelmendasi]

1 G2a-P303>L497>L43, 2 G2a-P303, 1 G2a.
Waiting for raw data to analyse it better.
Nice, will we be able to compare the raw data on Gedmatch? I would like to see how close I am to the samples found in Croatia ;)

[Tschaikisten]

Nice, will we be able to compare the raw data on Gedmatch? I would like to see how close I am to the samples found in Croatia ;)

Yes, I don't know when. I'm offline next 5 days so you must find a solution for news. xD

[blondbeast]

Father clade of I2a Dinaric :laugh:
cosmoo gothic stronk
http://i.imgur.com/FS2n3po.png

Where was the I found

[Voskos]

I2a1 is I2a1,... it was found in both hungary and serbia. subclade is not mentioned

[Kelmendasi]

I2a1 is I2a1,... it was found in both hungary and serbia. subclade is not mentioned
Probably a father clade then

[Tacitus]

Surprised this tidbit is being overlooked:


One version of the Steppe Hypothesis of Indo-European language origins suggests that Proto-Indo European languages developed in the steppe north of the Black and Caspian seas, and that the earliest known diverging branch – Anatolian – was spread into Asia Minor by movements of steppe peoples through the Balkan peninsula during the Copper Age around 4000 BCE, as part of the same incursions from the steppe that coincided with the decline of the tell settlements.

If this were correct, then one way to detect evidence of it would be the appearance of large amounts of characteristic steppe ancestry first in the Balkan Peninsula, and then in Anatolia. However, our genetic data do not support this scenario. While we find steppe ancestry in Balkan Copper Age and Bronze Age individuals, this ancestry is sporadic across individuals in the Copper Age, and at low levels in the Bronze Age. Moreover, while Bronze Age Anatolian individuals have CHG / Iran Neolithic related ancestry, they have neither the EHG ancestry characteristic of all steppe populations sampled to date, nor the WHG ancestry that is ubiquitous in southeastern Europe in the Neolithic.

This pattern is consistent with that seen in northwestern Anatolia and later in Copper Age Anatolia, suggesting continuing migration into Anatolia from the East rather than from Europe.

An alternative hypothesis is that the ultimate homeland of Proto-Indo European languages was in the Caucasus or in Iran. In this scenario, westward movement contributed to the dispersal of Anatolian languages, and northward movement and mixture with EHG was responsible for the formation of the population associated with the Yamnaya complex. These steppe pastoralists plausibly spoke a “Late Proto-Indo European” language that is ancestral to many of the non-Anatolian branches of the Indo-European language family. On the other hand, our data could still be consistent with the Steppe-Balkans-Anatolia route hypothesis model, albeit with constraints. It remains possible that populations dating to around 1600 BCE in the regions where the Indo-European Luwian, Hittite and Palaic languages were spoken did have European hunter-gatherer ancestry. However, our results would require that such ancestry was not ubiquitous in Bronze Age Anatolia, and was perhaps tightly linked to Indo-European speaking groups. We predict that additional insight about the genetic origins of the potential speakers of early Indo-European languages will be obtained when ancient DNA data become available from additional sites in this key period in Anatolia and the Caucasus.

[Voskos]

Probably a father clade then

i wonder what happened to all the I2a2 guys. they seem to have gone extinct

[Kelmendasi]

i wonder what happened to all the I2a2 guys. they seem to have gone extinct
Yh, probably got wiped out by the J2b2 and E-V13 carriers or maybe even Slavs, who knows? Although it seems to have been really common in the Balkans

[Deniz]

https://i.hizliresim.com/P0jar6.png

The largest haplotype group among Bulgarians is Dinaric-North (75%), which is prevalent among all North Slavs and may suggest a recent migration north of the Danube river. Anyway, any evidence for such migration is yet not observed in connection to modern populations as more than 90% of the traced Dinaric-North Bulgarian haplotypes belong to the SNP group Z17855, being the prevailing clade in Bulgarians, somehow significant in the western Balkans and rare elsewhere observed. These SNP groups separated before the Slavic expansion in the Balkans. Some authors suggested that I2a-Dinaric is pre-Slavic in the region and owed to the Thracians. According to large datasets the dominant Bulgarian Z17855 SNP is even absent in north Slavic DNA projects. The rest ~2% of Bulgarian males belong to the subclade M223 (I2a2a).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Bulgarians

[Wrong]

i wonder what happened to all the I2a2 guys. they seem to have gone extinct
The Germanic cucks turned infertile.

[safinator]

There is a J2b2 found in Croatia too if i am not mistaken.

[Tschaikisten]

One Cucuteni-Trypillian culture member Ydna is G2a-P303>L497>L43 :laugh:

Actually it's G-L42!
When you copy original text from Excel and paste it in Word it's G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a1:L42:16660759C->A
So it's L42, not only L43!

[Wrong]

1500-1700 BC

http://i.imgur.com/r4SuBeB.png

[The Destroyer]

It's I2-M223 in Mesolithic Balkan, far away from Dinaric subclade.
Can not wait to see Bosniak reaction :pound:

Gypsy subhuman, I have analyzed the results of this dirty document and you don't know what you're talking about.

First, various I2 haplogroups are abundant. We don't yet know what subclade I2 Din descended from, so no conclusions can be drawn from this.

Second, this gypsy research included coutries such as Russia, Germany and Jordan, so why is this thread even called genocmic history of SE Europe, when actual Balkan samples are the minority in that link you posted?

[Tschaikisten]

Gypsy subhuman, I have analyzed the results of this dirty document and you don't know what you're talking about.

First, various I2 haplogroups are abundant. We don't yet know what subclade I2 Din descended from, so no conclusions can be drawn from this.

Second, this gypsy research included coutries such as Russia, Germany and Jordan, so why is this thread even called genocmic history of SE Europe, when actual Balkan samples are the minority in that link you posted?
Ask scientists, you looser with elementary school! :pound:

[Jackson78]

1500-1700 BC

http://i.imgur.com/r4SuBeB.png

J2b2 stronk :cool:

[Jana]

worth mentioning:

one I2a1 found in Serbia
2 individuals belonging to Y-DNA T in Bulgaria
one R1b Z2105 in Croatia

R1b-L23 in Croatia too ? From which period of time ?

[Wrong]

R1b-L23 in Croatia too ? From which period of time ?
All these Gheg haplogroups... Feels good.

http://i.imgur.com/A9A7Y8m.png

[Tschaikisten]

R1b-L23 in Croatia too ? From which period of time ?

Croatia_Vucedol Vucedol .. Beli Manastir-Popova zemlja .. Croatia 45,34 18,70 M T2e R1b1a1a2a2 R1b1a1a2a2:Z2105:15747432C->A;

[The Destroyer]

Ask scientists, you looser with elementary school! :pound:

When I saw the names of people that did this research, it was obvious what this is about.

Don't forget to take your pills.

[Tschaikisten]

When I saw the names of people that did this research, it was obvious what this is about.

Don't forget to take your pills.

Let's everyone laugh to this monkey! :laugh:

[blondbeast]

When I saw the names of people that did this research, it was obvious what this is about.

Don't forget to take your pills.

how come the age of I2a2 Din subclade exactly coincides with the age of Bosnian Pyramids?

[Kelmendasi]

Gypsy subhuman, I have analyzed the results of this dirty document and you don't know what you're talking about.

First, various I2 haplogroups are abundant. We don't yet know what subclade I2 Din descended from, so no conclusions can be drawn from this.

Second, this gypsy research included coutries such as Russia, Germany and Jordan, so why is this thread even called genocmic history of SE Europe, when actual Balkan samples are the minority in that link you posted?
We do know as none of the Balkanic I2a was even I2a1 lol nearly all was I2a2 or in other words not even near to I2a1b. Dude the results prove what all of us have been saying, that I2a-Din is Slavic and not Balkanic

[Jana]

1500-1700 BC

http://i.imgur.com/r4SuBeB.png


All these Gheg haplogroups... Feels good.

http://i.imgur.com/A9A7Y8m.png

Just like it should be. Wota Fuq will be happy, he now has proof he indigenious to his homeland! :)
I just hope I2-dinaric will be finally found somwhere in European ancient samples too....so I can tell my father with 100% certanity what his origins are :D

[The Destroyer]

Let's everyone laugh to this monkey! :laugh:

I laugh at your transvestite prostitute of a mother. He probably wouldn't have changed into a woman if he/she knew what degenerate gypsy he/she would spit out.

[Tschaikisten]

I laugh at your transvestite prostitute of a mother. He probably wouldn't have changed into a woman if he/she knew what degenerate gypsy he/she would spit out.

:pound:

[Rethel]

One Cucuteni-Trypillian culture member Ydna is G2a-P303>L497>L43 :laugh:

One of how many?

[Jackson78]

I laugh at your transvestite prostitute of a mother. He probably wouldn't have changed into a woman if he/she knew what degenerate gypsy he/she would spit out.

ALO DJE TI JE I2A1B NA BALKANU U DREVNOJ DNK HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH

[Kelmendasi]

Just like it should be. Wota Fuq will be happy, he now has proof he indigenious to his homeland! :)
I just hope I2-dinaric will be finally found somwhere in Europe ancient samples too....so I can tell my father with 100% what his origins are :D
I reckon it will be found near Ukraine and Moldova :)

[The Destroyer]

how come the age of I2a2 Din subclade exactly coincides with the age of Bosnian Pyramids?

Ask the American professor who made that research.

[Tschaikisten]

One of how many?

4 are G2a,
2 G2a-P303
1 G2a
1 E
that L43 is actually L42 because:

Actually this is G-L42!
When you copy original text from Excel and paste it in Word it's G2a2b2a1a1b1a1a1:L42:16660759C->A
So it's L42, not only L43!

[The Destroyer]

We do know as none of the Balkanic I2a was even I2a1 lol nearly all was I2a2 or in other words not even near to I2a1b. Dude the results prove what all of us have been saying, that I2a-Din is Slavic and not Balkanic

Not really. Also, many of the results are from countries who have very little to do with SE Europe.

[The Destroyer]

ALO DJE TI JE I2A1B NA BALKANU U DREVNOJ DNK HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH

Is that Aramean language?

[blondbeast]

I reckon it will be found near Ukraine and Moldova :)

My bet is on holohstan.

[Kelmendasi]

Not really. Also, many of the results are from countries who have very little to do with SE Europe.
Yes but we are talking about those in SE Europe, and yes every I2a was I2a2 not I2a-Din, sorry to burst your bubble but this so far is genetic confirmation that I2a-Din isn't Balkanic. I heard they are currently working on Illyrian samples to see their haplos

[Kelmendasi]

My bet is on holohstan.
Nigga dafuq is a holohstan????????????????????????????????????????? ?????

[DRUM]

mfw
https://i.imgur.com/8qKuS4f.png

[The Destroyer]

Yes but we are talking about those in SE Europe, and yes every I2a was I2a2 not I2a-Din, sorry to burst your bubble but this so far is genetic confirmation that I2a-Din isn't Balkanic. I heard they are currently working on Illyrian samples to see their haplos

Just don't let those samples slip into the hands of SANU researchers, because they will invent another new history. Likely, this research was manipulated by SANU academy too.

[blondbeast]

Nigga dafuq is a holohstan????????????????????????????????????????? ?????

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?154731-Am-I-only-one-hohol-here

[Jackson78]

Is that Aramean language?

No, it is original language of bosnian piramids constructors :D

[Jana]

Croatia_Vucedol Vucedol .. Beli Manastir-Popova zemlja .. Croatia 45,34 18,70 M T2e R1b1a1a2a2 R1b1a1a2a2:Z2105:15747432C->A;

Many scholars consider Vučedol as major source for proto-Illyrian culture.

[The Destroyer]

how come the age of I2a2 Din subclade exactly coincides with the age of Bosnian Pyramids?

To be more precise, famous scientist Ken Nortwed said that.

[Kelmendasi]

Just don't let those samples slip into the hands of SANU researchers, because they will invent another new history. Likely, this research was manipulated by SANU academy too.
Jesus Christ dude why are you this butt-hurt over I2a-Din not being found and also why aren't you proud about being a pure Slav? They aren't manipulated as they don't care about offending Bosniaks on forums they just want to confirm things and this is what they have done

[Rethel]

4 are G2a,
2 G2a-P303
1 G2a
1 E
that L43 is actually L42 because:

7/8 = 87.5%
It is the best result than in any other part of Europe...

[Kelmendasi]

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?154731-Am-I-only-one-hohol-here
Eyyyyyyy Ukraine

[Kelmendasi]

Many scholars consider Vučedol as major source for proto-Illyrian culture.
Yep but I reckon that Cetina was as well

[The Destroyer]

Jesus Christ dude why are you this butt-hurt over I2a-Din not being found and also why aren't you proud about being a pure Slav? They aren't manipulated as they don't care about offending Bosniaks on forums they just want to confirm things and this is what they have done

We do not know. Today, most people believe the ordinary story about 9/11. Yet, this attack was secretly performed by Jewish Mossad agents.

It's similar with Chetniks and history, they make things appear different than they really are.

[Wrong]

"New genetic finds leave Bosnians speechless."

[Kelmendasi]

We do not know. Today, most people believe the ordinary story about 9/11. Yet, this attack was secretly performed by Jewish Mossad agents.

It's similar with Chetniks and history, they make things appear different than they really are.
Judging by this we do now know that I2a1b isn't Balkanic, your coping is great I got to say.

[blondbeast]

Judging by this we do now know that I2a1b isn't Balkanic, your coping is great I got to say.

So we now know majority of Serbs, Croats and islamized serbo-croats descend from Slavic males.

[Kelmendasi]

So we now know majority of Serbs, Croats and islamized serbo-croats descend from Slavic males.
Yep, in fact they are the purest Slavs

[The Destroyer]

Judging by this we do now know that I2a1b isn't Balkanic, your coping is great I got to say.

Open your eyes, take the red pill.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEDPOPr7qiY


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssCkc8t9sho

[Kelmendasi]

I wish Incelsalyer and Deymark could see their beloved theory fall apart with the Destroyer

[Tschaikisten]

We do not know. Today, most people believe the ordinary story about 9/11. Yet, this attack was secretly performed by Jewish Mossad agents.

It's similar with Chetniks and history, they make things appear different than they really are.

I see you want to be descendant of Illyrians, so, pray to Allah before your results one day arrive to score J2b2/R1b BY611.

[blondbeast]

Yep, in fact they are the purest Slavs

That is great news for my little south Slavic broders.

[The Destroyer]

So we now know majority of Serbs, Croats and islamized serbo-croats descend from Slavic males.

The history of the man I posted above is more internationally accepted than serf history.

[Kelmendasi]

I see you want to be descendant of Illyrians, so, pray to Allah before your results one day arrive to score J2b2/R1b BY611.
You forgot about E-V13 as it's father clade was found ;)

[Wrong]

So we now know majority of Serbs, Croats and islamized serbo-croats descend from Slavic males.
Indeed.
That is thhe reason you guys plot that much more northeast compared to your direct southern neighbors.

The only way to explain this was the heavy Slavic influx from I2a1b and R1a.

[The Destroyer]

That is great news for my little south Slavic broders.

Pan-Slavism is an ideology descended from jewish Zionisam and Stalin Communism, invented in the early 20th century. Most modern-day "Slavs" did not even feel like that 100 years ago. Your plans have failed, as people are beginning to realise the truth.

[blondbeast]

Pan-Slavism is an ideology descended from jewish Zionisam and Stalin Communism, invented in the early 20th century. Most modern-day "Slavs" did not even feel like that 100 years ago. Your plans have failed, as people are beginning to realise the truth.

You need a hug.

[Kelmendasi]

You need a hug.
Yep he is sad about there not being any I2a-Din lol, I remember when he said that J2b2 in Albania was from the Turks and Arabs lol xD

[The Destroyer]

Yep he is sad about there not being any I2a-Din lol, I remember when he said that J2b2 in Albania was from the Turks and Arabs lol xD

It is not my fault that you have been decieved by SANU, Chetnik and Jewish propaganda. Believe that some drunk Saudis flew a hi-tech plane into the twin towers, or that Serbs are Slavs. Whatever, it's the same.

[The Destroyer]

Yep he is sad about there not being any I2a-Din lol, I remember when he said that J2b2 in Albania was from the Turks and Arabs lol xD

Also, I took a look at the list again and you are wrong. I took only Balkan countries (Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria), counted their number of samples first, then counted number of I2a1. It was almost 30%. Look again.

[Kelmendasi]

It is not my fault that you have been decieved by SANU, Chetnik and Jewish propaganda. Believe that some drunk Saudis flew a hi-tech plane into the twin towers, or that Serbs are Slavs. Whatever, it's the same.
PAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAH THE COPE IS GREATTTTTT. You are the purest Slavs just deal with it, no I2a1b was found you fool just give up already

[Kelmendasi]

Also, I took a look at the list again and you are wrong. I took only Balkan countries (Serbia, Croatia, Bulgaria), counted their number of samples first, then counted number of I2a2. It was almost 30%. Look again.
I said that all the I was I2a2, read more precisely.

[Not a Cop]

Noone ever should take the words of someone with watermark on avatar seriously.

[Kelmendasi]

@The Destroyer: No I2a1 was found why you lying, only I2a2 was

[Kelmendasi]

I guess the Destroyer just rage quitted

[Rethel]

According to this table, Ust-Ishim is like my grandpa, older 25k years than greatgrandpa :picard2:

[Kelmendasi]

The only places where I2a1b was found were, Germany, Spain and Sweden

[The Destroyer]

@The Destroyer: No I2a1 was found why you lying, only I2a2 was

So what? They have the same roots, technically, they were both just I2 before. Both of them are Old European ones. Here is a good explanation:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97AjbjCF_C4

[Kelmendasi]

So what? They have the same roots, technically, they were both just I2 before. Both of them are Old European ones. Here is a good explanation:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97AjbjCF_C4
Same roots but seperated over 1,000s of years. Still your specific cluster of I2a isn't Balkanic

[Tschaikisten]

So what? They have the same roots, technically, they were both just I2 before. Both of them are Old European ones. Here is a good explanation:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97AjbjCF_C4

Today is 2017, not 2013 or even 2010 when theory about I2a1b since Balkan Ice Age started.
Shut the fuck up.
http://i.imgur.com/YDTcLCl.jpg

[Kelmendasi]

Today is 2017, not 2013 or even 2010 when theory about I2a1b since Balkan Ice Age started.
Shut the fuck up.
[IM]http://i.imgur.com/YDTcLCl.jpg[/IMG]
Leave him be, his brain machine broke after seeing the results xD

[The Destroyer]

Today is 2017, not 2013 or even 2010 when theory about I2a1b since Balkan Ice Age started.
Shut the fuck up.
http://i.imgur.com/YDTcLCl.jpg

So what? It may change back again, contrary to your Communist wishes. Science is a fluid concept.

[Tschaikisten]

His arguments (youtube videos and forum comments from 2010).
Our arguments (scientific papers and studies).
Enough.

[The Destroyer]

His arguments (youtube videos and forum comments from 2010).
Our arguments (scientific papers and studies).
Enough.

You're just jealous because my truth is older than yours.

[blondbeast]

His arguments (youtube videos and forum comments from 2010).
Our arguments (scientific papers and studies).
Enough.

He should embrace his Slavic forefathers who were obviously warriors and had the balls to trek southward unlike the ones that stayed behind.

[Kelmendasi]

You're just jealous because my truth is older than yours.
Boiii your "Turth" just got destroyed right before your own eyes

[Kelmendasi]

Now we can conclude that the Balkans had 0 I2a1b carriers

[The Destroyer]

Now we can conclude that the Balkans had 0 I2a1b carriers

How does one research tell us anything? We should do several more researches, by other scientist teams, to make sure.

[Lek]

He should embrace his Slavic forefathers who were obviously warriors and had the balls to trek southward unlike the ones that stayed behind.

We don't know what ydna he could be. Anything is possible.

[Coolguy1]

Unfortunately we still dont really have an extensive sample base. This study has certaintly shed some light but I dont think anything can be ruled out just yet.

[Wrong]

Destroyer:


http://i.imgur.com/rGXKWX0.mp4

[XenophobicPrussian]

http://s6.ifotos.pl/img/TGHOSEE1p_aaqnsee.png

http://s2.ifotos.pl/img/TGHOSEE2a_aaqnapp.png

http://s2.ifotos.pl/img/TGHOSEE3a_aaqnapw.png

http://s2.ifotos.pl/img/TGHOSEE4p_aaqnsas.png

http://s2.ifotos.pl/img/TGHOSEE5p_aaqnsqh.png

http://s2.ifotos.pl/img/TGHOSEE6p_aaqnsqn.png

http://s5.ifotos.pl/img/aut1png_aaqnqwq.png

http://s10.ifotos.pl/img/aut2png_aaqnqsh.png

http://s5.ifotos.pl/img/aut3png_aaqnqsx.png

http://s5.ifotos.pl/img/aut4png_aaqnqsn.png

So much R1b in Balkan WHGs.

WE WUZ DINARICS

Anyone know if Varna_outlier is the famous Varna man(the guy with all the gold) or is it one of the farmers(Varna man was sampled in this)?

[XenophobicPrussian]

Is there any I2a-Din or R1a in pre-Medieval Balkan samples?
It seems there's a I2a-Din in one of the Motala samples.

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/48047-The-genomic-history-of-Southeastern-Europe?p=1294446

Post #44.

[XenophobicPrussian]

There is too much bullshit written by stupid fucks across this entire forum. I will make it simple: As I said before months ago and I was right, Albanians were more or less unchanged autosomally since the Bronze Age.
A large increase of the amount of J/E in modern Balkanites and Bronze Age Balkanites clustering with N. Italians/Iberians is somehow autosomal continuity to you?

[blondbeast]

It seems there's a I2a-Din in one of the Motala samples.

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php/48047-The-genomic-history-of-Southeastern-Europe?p=1294446

Post #44.

is it Slavic or??

[Lek]

It means it came from the north with goths or slavs

[Sockorer]

So I2a1b comes from Northern Europe after all, it feels good to know that I'm not descended from some filthy wop.

[blondbeast]

So I2a1b comes from Northern Europe after all, it feels good to know that I'm not descended from some filthy wop.

your religion is wop though.

[Sockorer]

your religion is wop though.

Very true, however religion transcends race.

[Lek]

So I2a1b comes from Northern Europe after all, it feels good to know that I'm not descended from some filthy wop.

You were saying before that its Ilyrian and that EV13 was from slaves xD

[Sockorer]

You were saying before that its Ilyrian and that EV13 was from slaves xD

I just go with the evidence man. I'm completely rational and impartial.

[Lek]

Seems to be the case & it's rare nowadays in Europe.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/2f/a7/39/2fa739160d49273e6279b278d8fa6711.png

Thracians were gypsies ?

[nightrider+]

A large increase of the amount of J/E in modern Balkanites and Bronze Age Balkanites clustering with N. Italians/Iberians is somehow autosomal continuity to you?
They don't cluster with N.Italians and not even close to Iberians, wtf are you talking about? They plot like Tuscans or more farmer shifted Bulgarians. Basically where they should be given that these samples are from Bronze Age Bulgaria and Croatia. So far evidence suggests that most modern Balkans are North Euro shifted compared to the Bronze Age.

[Faklon]

They don't cluster with N.Italians and not even close to Iberians, wtf are you talking about? They plot like Tuscans or more farmer shifted Bulgarians. Basically where they should be given that these samples are from Bronze Age Bulgaria and Croatia. So far evidence suggests that most modern Balkans are North Euro shifted compared to the Bronze Age.

True, XP tries to cope with Polako's mantra who dreams of a grand medieval Polish-Turkish mix in the Balkans that makes them different from modern Iberians, Balkan_Bronze Age turns out something like ~60% Neolithic Anatolia ~40% Yamnaya which is close enough to modern South-Balkans, modern Northern-Balkans are more EHG/WHG shifted.



So much R1b in Balkan WHGs.

It's not so much R1b, it's specific samples from Iron Gates(Serbian-Romanian borders) but it's interesting, it's quite early in pre-history and the location is relatively close to the Steppe,may be relevant to the formation of Steppe cultures.

What is also interesting about Balkan halpogroups, it's that there is enough diversity in pre-history to justify the relatively high diversity of Balkan halpos nowadays.

WE WUZ BORREBIES

[blondbeast]

True, XP tries to cope with Polako's mantra who dreams of a grand medieval Polish-Turkish mix in the Balkans that makes them different from modern Iberians, Balkan_Bronze Age turns out something like ~60% Neolithic Anatolia ~40% Yamnaya which is close enough to modern South-Balkans, modern Northern-Balkans are more EHG/WHG shifted.



It's not so much R1b, it's specific samples from Iron Gates(Serbian-Romanian borders) but it's interesting, it's quite early in pre-history and the location is relatively close to the Steppe,may be relevant to the formation of Steppe cultures.

What is also interesting about Balkan halpogroups, it's that there is enough diversity in pre-history to justify the relatively high diversity of Balkan halpos nowadays.

WE WUZ BORREBIES

I take it you don't like Polako's Eurogenes calculators?

[Wrong]

They don't cluster with N.Italians and not even close to Iberians, wtf are you talking about? They plot like Tuscans or more farmer shifted Bulgarians. Basically where they should be given that these samples are from Bronze Age Bulgaria and Croatia. So far evidence suggests that most modern Balkans are North Euro shifted compared to the Bronze Age.
I agree man, I take it you are referring to South Slavic Balkans. The non-Slavic speakers remained more or less the same, perhaps except the Romanians.



LMFAO @ Balkan non-Slavs and their unconquered mountain-bastions since the Bronze Age.

[Bosniensis]

Well I haven't tested myself, but I do come from a region where I2 is predominantly strong.

[Rethel]

Well I haven't tested myself, but I do come from a region where I2 is predominantly strong.

Doesn't matter. You can be verbaly anything.
You are who you are, and the statistics have no place here.
Btw in majority cases, people have different results, as they thought, what they were.

[XenophobicPrussian]

They don't cluster with N.Italians and not even close to Iberians, wtf are you talking about? They plot like Tuscans or more farmer shifted Bulgarians. Basically where they should be given that these samples are from Bronze Age Bulgaria and Croatia. So far evidence suggests that most modern Balkans are North Euro shifted compared to the Bronze Age.
Do I really have to point this out to you?

Here's a PCA with the same modern populations clearly labeled:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/images/nature13673-f2.jpg

The PCA from this paper:

http://i.imgur.com/UDrLmPE.png

They clearly cluster with N. Italians(you could argue inbetween N. Italians and Tuscans I guess, and like I pointed out, 2/8 have a shift towards modern Bulgarians, but still are much closer to N. Italians).

The Malak_Preslavets samples are also early Bronze Age, they are very clearly with Iberians.

If you also combine that with this PCA has shrinkage(basically, when the ancient samples are pulled to the center when you do a PCA incorrectly with modern populations, this isn't something I just made up, look it up), all ancient samples are shifted to the center, in this case south-east, when Polako releases his PCA plot you will see this(although I'm sure you'll accuse him of fake propaganda or whatever), meaning the Bronze Age Balkanites are even more SW and cluster inbetween N. Italians and Iberians, and the early BA Malak_Preslavets would be among the most northern shifted modern Iberians. For example, the Bell Beakers aren't in the correct spot, and the HGs are much too close to modern populations(you'd think modern Balts are 90% Ukrainian_HG when looking at this), the European farmers are also way too far from Sardinians. For a PCA without shrinkage and the Bell Beakers in their proper spots, look at the PCA from the new Bell Beaker paper.

Fyi, we also already have a BA Montenegrin, clustered between Iberia/N Italy.

https://s22.postimg.org/4dr0dumoh/Montenegro+Poland+eng.png

I'm sure you think that's all bullshit, but even without that, they still cluster with N. Italians, not modern Balkanites/Bulgarians.


So far evidence suggests that most modern Balkans are North Euro shifted compared to the Bronze Age.
Believe it or not, I wasn't even trying to get at that, but no, you're wrong. Only true for Croatians/Slovenians/Bosnians. If you take any Balto-Slav or any LMBA steppe person and mix him with any of these BA Balkanites you don't arrive anywhere near Bulgarians, they aren't anywhere near that cline. You'd need the Slavs to be Yamnaya for a N. Italian/Tuscan to Bulgaria cline, and obviously they weren't, which means there is extra admixture there in modern Bulgarians.

The good news(well, it wouldn't be good news for me personally, unless I stopped denigrating Turks and other MENA populations and became a Caucasoid supremacist rather than a "white" supremacist) for you and Faklon is there's now evidence of post-neolithic Middle-Eastern migrations into Europe that seems to have the extra Natufian/CHG not present in neolithic farmers, which means your extra MENA doesn't necessarily have to come from Turks or Byzantine immigration, which in turn means you still coulda wuz ancien Greeks n shit.

[Petros Houhoulis]

All these Gheg haplogroups... Feels good.

http://i.imgur.com/A9A7Y8m.png

Feels good to be... Croatian???

[Jana]

Feels good to be... Croatian???

Croatia was proto-Illyrian zone back than, it makes sense for them to paternally descend from there. In the dark ages big chunk of surviving Illyrian population retreated south/to mountains due to barbarian raids.

[Rethel]

P.E.R. - it is in croatian? Pred Era Rożdestwa :laugh:

[Insuperable]

Do I really have to point this out to you?

Here's a PCA with the same modern populations clearly labeled:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/images/nature13673-f2.jpg

The PCA from this paper:

http://i.imgur.com/UDrLmPE.png

They clearly cluster with N. Italians(you could argue inbetween N. Italians and Tuscans I guess, and like I pointed out, 2/8 have a shift towards modern Bulgarians, but still are much closer to N. Italians).

The Malak_Preslavets samples are also early Bronze Age, they are very clearly with Iberians.

If you also combine that with this PCA has shrinkage(basically, when the ancient samples are pulled to the center when you do a PCA incorrectly with modern populations, this isn't something I just made up, look it up), all ancient samples are shifted to the center, in this case south-east, when Polako releases his PCA plot you will see this(although I'm sure you'll accuse him of fake propaganda or whatever), meaning the Bronze Age Balkanites are even more SW and cluster inbetween N. Italians and Iberians, and the early BA Malak_Preslavets would be among the most northern shifted modern Iberians. For example, the Bell Beakers aren't in the correct spot, and the HGs are much too close to modern populations(you'd think modern Balts are 90% Ukrainian_HG when looking at this), the European farmers are also way too far from Sardinians. For a PCA without shrinkage and the Bell Beakers in their proper spots, look at the PCA from the new Bell Beaker paper.

Fyi, we also already have a BA Montenegrin, clustered between Iberia/N Italy.

https://s22.postimg.org/4dr0dumoh/Montenegro+Poland+eng.png

I'm sure you think that's all bullshit, but even without that, they still cluster with N. Italians, not modern Balkanites/Bulgarians.


Believe it or not, I wasn't even trying to get at that, but no, you're wrong. Only true for Croatians/Slovenians/Bosnians. If you take any Balto-Slav or any LMBA steppe person and mix him with any of these BA Balkanites you don't arrive anywhere near Bulgarians, they aren't anywhere near that cline. You'd need the Slavs to be Yamnaya for a N. Italian/Tuscan to Bulgaria cline, and obviously they weren't, which means there is extra admixture there in modern Bulgarians.

The good news(well, it wouldn't be good news for me personally, unless I stopped denigrating Turks and other MENA populations and became a Caucasoid supremacist rather than a "white" supremacist) for you and Faklon is there's now evidence of post-neolithic Middle-Eastern migrations into Europe that seems to have the extra Natufian/CHG not present in neolithic farmers, which means your extra MENA doesn't necessarily have to come from Turks or Byzantine immigration, which in turn means you still coulda wuz ancien Greeks n shit.

Here is a Bronze Age Dalmatian sample JAZ1. Check the number of SNPs used (less than 10 000). I have read that two ancient Montenegrin samples also had low snp count. Is 10 000 SNPs enough for confident analysis?
http://s32.postimg.org/s3yba4u6t/PCA_JAZ1.png

[Insuperable]

Just like it should be. Wota Fuq will be happy, he now has proof he indigenious to his homeland! :)
I just hope I2-dinaric will be finally found somwhere in European ancient samples too....so I can tell my father with 100% certanity what his origins are :D

I don't know what is my L23 subclade. Maybe it is R1b-Z2103, maybe one of those Balkan clusters, maybe it is one of those eastern European L-23 clusters like that of Silesian, maybe not.:dunno:

[Jana]

I don't know what is my L23 subclade. Maybe it is R1b-Z2103, maybe one of those Balkan clusters, maybe it is one of those eastern European L-23 clusters like that of Silesian, maybe not.:dunno:
https://www.yseq.net/
You can get defining SNP for 18-20 USD. It would be cool to find out your exact branch.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Here is a Bronze Age Dalmatian sample JAZ1. Check the number of SNPs used (less than 10 000). I have read that two ancient Montenegrin samples also had low snp count. Is 10 000 SNP enough for confident analysis?
http://s32.postimg.org/s3yba4u6t/PCA_JAZ1.png
No, it isn't, but that JAZ1 sample actually seems to be in the right place and doesn't look noisey, and goes along with the new high SNP count BA Balkan samples from the new study(although seems to be a bit more Balkan shifted). The BA Montenegro sample had even less than those. Low SNP coverage samples will also look less noisey in PCA plots than ADMIXTURE. It really depends, some low SNP samples will be accurate and not noisey, some will(like the Thracian samples with like a few hundred SNPs showing 20% SSA).

This PCA plot, like the other one, has shrinkage. It happens when you run the ancient and modern samples seperately and then just overlap the ancients onto a modern PCA or something. All the ancient populations are centered and shifted North-East on the PCA(or SE in terms of population genetics), all those LMBA samples like Unetice, Bell Beakers, etc should be where modern North and Central European populations are, not east of them, clustering around no modern populations, LBK and the European farmers should also be right around Sardinians, and modern Balts are far too close to the HGs(no population in Europe has more than 60-70% overall HG admixture).

That JAZ1 sample, like all the other BA Balkanites, clusters around N. Italians or Iberians. Even with shrinkage, the samples in this new study still cluster around N. Italians(without shrinkage it'd be more likely Iberians or inbetween Iberians/N. Italians) I'm sorry if you wanted Bronze Age continuity or something but it's just the truth, I'm not here trying to troll you or anything.

You probably think why is this random fucker right and not professional geneticists? Well, look at the PCA plots from the other new Bell Beaker paper, those have no shrinkage and are completely different from the ones in this paper and this JAZ1 PCA. People like Davidski from Eurogenes have been e-mailing them about shrinkage but some of them don't seem to listen. Wait until Eurogenes releases a PCA of these for a clearer picture.

Here's how proper PCA plots with both modern samples and ancients are supposed to look(note where all the LMBA samples, neolithic farmer samples are, and how much farther the HGs are:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/images_article/nature14317-f2.jpg

https://j2-m172.info/wp-content/uploads/sites/3/2016/06/PCAtest2_Eurogenes_2016-06-23_detail-Levant.png

[Jana]

...

How does JAZ1 clusters among N.Italians/Iberians when on PCA it's clearly in the modern Bulgarian cluster (and close to Greeks and Albanians) ?

[XenophobicPrussian]

How does JAZ1 clusters among N.Italians/Iberians when on PCA it's clearly in the modern Bulgarian cluster ?
Read the rest of the post.

[nightrider+]

Do I really have to point this out to you?

Here's a PCA with the same modern populations clearly labeled:

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v513/n7518/images/nature13673-f2.jpg

The PCA from this paper:

http://i.imgur.com/UDrLmPE.png

They clearly cluster with N. Italians(you could argue inbetween N. Italians and Tuscans I guess, and like I pointed out, 2/8 have a shift towards modern Bulgarians, but still are much closer to N. Italians).

The Malak_Preslavets samples are also early Bronze Age, they are very clearly with Iberians.

If you also combine that with this PCA has shrinkage(basically, when the ancient samples are pulled to the center when you do a PCA incorrectly with modern populations, this isn't something I just made up, look it up), all ancient samples are shifted to the center, in this case south-east, when Polako releases his PCA plot you will see this(although I'm sure you'll accuse him of fake propaganda or whatever), meaning the Bronze Age Balkanites are even more SW and cluster inbetween N. Italians and Iberians, and the early BA Malak_Preslavets would be among the most northern shifted modern Iberians. For example, the Bell Beakers aren't in the correct spot, and the HGs are much too close to modern populations(you'd think modern Balts are 90% Ukrainian_HG when looking at this), the European farmers are also way too far from Sardinians. For a PCA without shrinkage and the Bell Beakers in their proper spots, look at the PCA from the new Bell Beaker paper.

Fyi, we also already have a BA Montenegrin, clustered between Iberia/N Italy.

https://s22.postimg.org/4dr0dumoh/Montenegro+Poland+eng.png

I'm sure you think that's all bullshit, but even without that, they still cluster with N. Italians, not modern Balkanites/Bulgarians.


Believe it or not, I wasn't even trying to get at that, but no, you're wrong. Only true for Croatians/Slovenians/Bosnians. If you take any Balto-Slav or any LMBA steppe person and mix him with any of these BA Balkanites you don't arrive anywhere near Bulgarians, they aren't anywhere near that cline. You'd need the Slavs to be Yamnaya for a N. Italian/Tuscan to Bulgaria cline, and obviously they weren't, which means there is extra admixture there in modern Bulgarians.

The good news(well, it wouldn't be good news for me personally, unless I stopped denigrating Turks and other MENA populations and became a Caucasoid supremacist rather than a "white" supremacist) for you and Faklon is there's now evidence of post-neolithic Middle-Eastern migrations into Europe that seems to have the extra Natufian/CHG not present in neolithic farmers, which means your extra MENA doesn't necessarily have to come from Turks or Byzantine immigration, which in turn means you still coulda wuz ancien Greeks n shit.
Let me point out where exactly modern Bulgarians plot since once again you don't even understand what you're looking at, either due to stupidity or bias or both.

http://i.imgur.com/SztLH4t.png

I'm hoping you won't need help to see the Blakan Neolithic samples too. Clearly all the labeled Balkan Bronze samples are on a cline between those two groups.
Malak Preslavets is not Bronze Age, it's Neolithic (and not even late Neolithic). Another thing this paper does is throwing the typical Yamnaya-Kurgan migration to the Balkans and to Anatolia through the Balkans theory out of the window. It's ok if you admit you are wrong once in a while.

[Jana]

Read the rest of the post.
I have. It isn't close to modern Spanish on the PCA. If anything it looks like eastern shifted Tuscan (=Bulgarian/Albanian/Greek), no suprise there.

[XenophobicPrussian]

I have. It isn't close to modern Spaihash on the PCA. If anything it looks like eastern shifted Tuscan (=Bulgarian/Albanian/Greek), no suprise there.
The PCA is inaccurate. It has shrinkage. If you disagree on whether it's accurate or not that's another story, but don't misrepresent the point I was trying to make.

On a proper PCA, JAZ1 clusters around N. Italians. According to that PCA with shrinkage, North/Central Europeans are all half WHG and half LMBA(Late Middle Bronze Age) steppe populations, when in actuality North/Central Europeans have negligible extra WHG admixture past LMBA steppe populations like Bell Beaker/Unetice/Corded Ware, etc.

I'm not saying population geneticists are wrong, I'm saying the ones that did these PCAs are, most manage to do PCAs without shrinkage, like the new Bell Beaker paper.

[Jana]

The PCA is inaccurate. It has shrinkage. If you disagree on whether it's accurate or not that's another story, but don't misrepresent the point I was trying to make.

On a proper PCA, JAZ1 clusters around N. Italians. According to that PCA with shrinkage, North/Central Europeans are all half WHG and half LMBA(Late Middle Bronze Age) steppe populations, when in actuality North/Central Europeans have negligible extra WHG admixture past LMBA steppe populations like Bell Beaker/Unetice/Corded Ware, etc.

I'm not saying population geneticists are wrong, I'm saying the ones that did these PCAs are, most manage to do PCAs without shrinkage, like the new Bell Beaker paper.

And can you show that proper PCA ? I understand what you're saying, but I wonder if the ''better'' PCA exist or it just your hypotesis.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Let me point out where exactly modern Bulgarians plot since once again you don't even understand what you're looking at, either due to stupidity or bias or both.

http://i.imgur.com/SztLH4t.png

I'm hoping you won't need help to see the Blakan Neolithic samples too. Clearly all the labeled Balkan Bronze samples are on a cline between those two groups.
Malak Preslavets is not Bronze Age, it's Neolithic (and not even late Neolithic). Another thing this paper does is throwing the typical Yamnaya-Kurgan migration to the Balkans and to Anatolia through the Balkans theory out of the window. It's ok if you admit you are wrong once in a while.
You're right about Malak_Preslavets(I was looking at the icons in the PCA with the modern populations and using the age guide on the other image, as the diamonds in the modern PCA are located near Copper/Bronze age in the age guide). However, look at the Copper Age(which is pretty much BA) Balkanites.

https://s10.postimg.org/5qhpwxqw9/ppsneo.png

The location of the Bulgarians on the PCA plot however, I really don't know what to tell you other than check your vision at an eye doctor. Do you see the red squares(Bronze Age Balkans) anywhere near your circled Bulgarians? Maybe you ought to circle the N. Italians.

I suppose you have two Yamnaya samples from Bulgaria there, but the majority of BA Balkanites cluster near N. Italy(and Iberia once accounted for shrinkage in a proper PCA), whilist the two Yamnaya Bulgaria samples actually cluster around modern Hungarians once accounted for shrinkage. You will soon see once Eurogenes releases a PCA plot(well, you'll probably just disregard it anyway and call him an amateur blogger or something, even though shrinkage is a known thing and most population geneticists get PCAs right).

[XenophobicPrussian]

And can you show that proper PCA ? I understand what you're saying, but I wonder if the ''better'' PCA exist or it just your hypotesis.
I did. If you mean a proper PCA with BA Balkanites, you'll have to wait a bit for Eurogenes to make one. If an internet blogger isn't good enough for you, you can go look at the new Bell Beaker paper and see how different that proper PCA plot is compared to the one in this paper.

[nightrider+]

You're right about Malak_Preslavets(I was looking at the icons in the PCA with the modern populations and using the age guide on the other image, as the diamonds in the modern PCA are located near Copper/Bronze age in the age guide). However, look at the Copper Age(which is pretty much BA) Balkanites.

https://s10.postimg.org/5qhpwxqw9/ppsneo.png

The location of the Bulgarians on the PCA plot however, I really don't know what to tell you other than check your vision at an eye doctor. Do you see the red squares(Bronze Age Balkans) anywhere near your circled Bulgarians? Maybe you ought to circle the N. Italians.

I suppose you have two Yamnaya samples from Bulgaria there, but the majority of BA Balkanites cluster near N. Italy(and Iberia once accounted for shrinkage in a proper PCA), whilist the two Yamnaya Bulgaria samples actually cluster around modern Hungarians once accounted for shrinkage. You will soon see once Eurogenes releases a PCA plot(well, you'll probably just disregard it anyway and call him an amateur blogger or something, even though shrinkage is a known thing and most population geneticists get PCAs right).

I never said they plot with Bulgarians. I said they plot with Tuscans or like Balkan farmer shifted Bulgarians. Btw keep in mind that all those Bulgarians samples are from far southern Bulgaria, northerners would probably plot closer to Romanians and to European core. The fact that you're focusing on N. Italians (or even Iberians, lol) is bordering on propaganda, it's what you want to see.
The Balkan Chalcolithic samples are also more or less on the same cline.
As for the fact that Bulgarians are more "eastern" and not so much modern Slavs shifted compared to the Bronze Age and Neolithic Balkans (if we assume that Slavic migrations are responsible for their "northern" shift), it might have something to do with influence from Peloponnese Neolithic (E-V13 could be there) or Anatolian related populations, which would be supported by their modern y-dna distribution. Another possibility is influence from the North after Bronze Age collapse.

[Wrong]

Bronze Age Montenegrin sample is somewhere at the Albanian and Bulgarian cluster.

It's just ONE sample, either way, if we had more samples of similar genetic background it would most likely plot inside Albanians or Bulgarians. I put the dot in the centre of the Albanian cluster, it could be wrong by a few pixels but still roughly tells the point.

Albanian average is the red dot, we have many Albanians levitating towards the Bulgarian cluster, too. Eurogenes V2K15:

http://i.imgur.com/45aNfuo.png

[Kelmendasi]

Bronze Age Montenegrin sample is somewhere at the Albanian and Bulgarian cluster

Albanian average is the red dot, we have many Albanians levitating towards the Bulgarian cluster, too. Eurogenes V2K15:

[ig]http://i.imgur.com/45aNfuo.png[/img]
I plot a bit more north west to that dot

[Wrong]

I plot a bit more north west to that dot
I am a few pixels northeast the red dot center, inside it nonetheless.

[Voskos]

a total of 9 I2a2 guys in Bulgaria and Serbia. It seems the balkans were germanic back then :)

[KrashNick]

All these Gheg haplogroups... Feels good.

http://i.imgur.com/A9A7Y8m.png

Muh nigga :D

[Peterski]

a total of 9 I2a2 guys in Bulgaria and Serbia. It seems the balkans were germanic back then :)

I2a2 is not Germanic.

[Voskos]

I2a2 is not Germanic.

most subclades are germanic and it peaks in germany as well

[Peterski]

most subclades are germanic and it peaks in germany as well

But it is from Pre-Germanic / Non-Germanic populations assimilated by Germanic-speakers.

It was not originally Germanic.

Proto-Germanic people originated neither in the Balkans, nor in Germany, but in Scandinavia.

[Wrong]

most subclades are germanic and it peaks in germany as well
What age are those samples? I know one Albanian from FYROM that got it

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/Iirk_VViZhw/maxresdefault.jpg

[Voskos]

bronze age samples i think

[XenophobicPrussian]

Bronze Age Montenegrin sample is somewhere at the Albanian and Bulgarian cluster.

It's just ONE sample, either way, if we had more samples of similar genetic background it would most likely plot inside Albanians or Bulgarians. I put the dot in the centre of the Albanian cluster, it could be wrong by a few pixels but still roughly tells the point.

Albanian average is the red dot, we have many Albanians levitating towards the Bulgarian cluster, too. Eurogenes V2K15:

http://i.imgur.com/45aNfuo.png
Based on what? Why are you saying random shit? In the PCA I provided they're clearly with Iberians, if you have counter evidence, provide it. One sample? All these samples in this study cluster with N. Italians and will soon actually be shown to cluster inbetween N. Italians and Iberians, some with Iberians.

That K15 plot has nothing to do.. with anything.

I was the one who made this:

http://oi67.tinypic.com/egtlch.jpg

then was later convinced it's inaccurate because it's a modern calc being used on ancient samples. It's only accurate for the later samples like the Hinxton Britons/Anglo-Saxons and the neolithic farmers, everything else, especially BA Hungary, Sintashta(Sintashta are east Ukrainian like, not Scandinavian), etc). Need to use PCA or an ancient calc. I'm not biased and I admitted I was wrong, you should do the same.

[XenophobicPrussian]

I2a2 is not Germanic.
More importantly, Y-DNA makes up less than 1-2% of your genome. An African American with I1 is not "Germanic".

[Wrong]

Based on what? Why are you saying random shit? In the PCA I provided they're clearly with Iberians, if you have counter evidence, provide it. One sample? All these samples in this study cluster with N. Italians and will soon actually be shown to cluster inbetween N. Italians and Iberians, some with Iberians.

That K15 plot has nothing to do.. with anything.


then was later convinced it's inaccurate because it's a modern calc being used on ancient samples. It's only accurate for the later samples like the Hinxton Britons/Anglo-Saxons and the neolithic farmers, everything else, especially BA Hungary, Sintashta(Sintashta are east Ukrainian like, not Scandinavian), etc). Need to use PCA or an ancient calc. I'm not biased and I admitted I was wrong, you should do the same.

I don't give a fuck what you think piss of shit, we are right between Tuscans, Thessaly & Bulgaria.
Plotting near North Italians or Spanish would be the last thing happening for an Albanian so shut your fucking mouth, sperging negropolreby.

[XenophobicPrussian]

I never said they plot with Bulgarians. I said they plot with Tuscans or like Balkan farmer shifted Bulgarians. Btw keep in mind that all those Bulgarians samples are from far southern Bulgaria, northerners would probably plot closer to Romanians and to European core. The fact that you're focusing on N. Italians (or even Iberians, lol) is bordering on propaganda, it's what you want to see.
The Balkan Chalcolithic samples are also more or less on the same cline.
As for the fact that Bulgarians are more "eastern" and not so much modern Slavs shifted compared to the Bronze Age and Neolithic Balkans (if we assume that Slavic migrations are responsible for their "northern" shift), it might have something to do with influence from Peloponnese Neolithic (E-V13 could be there) or Anatolian related populations, which would be supported by their modern y-dna distribution. Another possibility is influence from the North after Bronze Age collapse.
You forget that my original post you first responded to was simply telling an Albanian who claimed "Balkanites have 100% autosomal continuity from the Bronze Age" he was wrong.

"Farmer shifted Tuscans" 3 of them are, yes, the other 5 red squares are closer to N. Italians than Tuscans, but "farmer shifted Tuscans" is just nitpicking here and you're basically agreeing with my point. The copper age ones are all N. Italian.

There are literally no samples from southern Bulgaria, not sure why you said that. They're all on the Romanian border, and there's not much difference between Bulgarian samples and far northern Croatian ones.

I didn't claim modern Balkanites are BA Balkanites+Turks, those are Faklon's words. I didn't even suggest a source. All I said was they were N. Italian, or not modern Balkanites. You basically agreed you can't get modern Bulgarians from BA Bulgarians+modern Balto-Slavs, so we're on the same page. Lots of potential other populations. Yamnaya(although seems unlikely as the initial Yamnaya push had already happened and Yamnaya didn't exist in the late bronze age anymore), the Iron Age Scythian from Hungary who was pretty south-eastern compared to Europeans, copper age Anatolians, etc. Doesn't have to be Turks, doesn't make them anyless southern shifted though.

[XenophobicPrussian]

I don't give a fuck what you think piss of shit, we are right between Tuscans, Thessaly & Bulgaria.
Plotting near North Italians or Spanish would be the last thing happening for an Albanian so shut your fucking mouth, sperging negropolreby.
I haven't once talked about where modern Albanians plot. Moron.

[Wrong]

I haven't once talked about where modern Albanians plot. Moron.
Bronze Age Balkan sample JAZ1 is nowhere close North Italy or Spain due to Northern/Eastern Steppe influence. Now, back the fuck off.

You have been sperging this nonsense for several pages.


http://s32.postimg.org/s3yba4u6t/PCA_JAZ1.png

[nightrider+]

You forget that my original post you first responded to was simply telling an Albanian who claimed "Balkanites have 100% autosomal continuity from the Bronze Age" he was wrong.

"Farmer shifted Tuscans" 3 of them are, yes, the other 5 red squares are closer to N. Italians than Tuscans, but "farmer shifted Tuscans" is just nitpicking here and you're basically agreeing with my point. The copper age ones are all N. Italian.

There are literally no samples from southern Bulgaria, not sure why you said that. They're all on the Romanian border, and there's not much difference between Bulgarian samples and far northern Croatian ones.

I didn't claim modern Balkanites are BA Balkanites+Turks, those are Faklon's words. I didn't even suggest a source. All I said was they were N. Italian, or not modern Balkanites. You basically agreed you can't get modern Bulgarians from BA Bulgarians+modern Balto-Slavs, so we're on the same page. Lots of potential other populations. Yamnaya(although seems unlikely as the initial Yamnaya push had already happened and Yamnaya didn't exist in the late bronze age anymore), the Iron Age Scythian from Hungary who was pretty south-eastern compared to Europeans, copper age Anatolians, etc. Doesn't have to be Turks, doesn't make them anyless southern shifted though.
Again, I'm not sure what you are looking at. Balkan Chalcolithic is close to Anatolian and other farmers. The only samples that plot right with N.Italians there are Vatya.

Also I wasn't talking about the ancient Bulgarian samples but the modern ones when I said they are all from the south.

[Rethel]

More importantly, Y-DNA makes up less than 1-2% of your genome.

http://emotikona.pl/emotikony/pic/2glowawmur.gif

[Voskos]

R1b-L23 in Croatia too ? From which period of time ?

from vucedol culture

[Kelmendasi]

Where I2a1b most likely expanded from:
http://s25.postimg.org/ytxbq3pfj/cu_trip_migration_dynamics_22102015.jpg

[ADonkeyBrain]

XenophobicBOrussian is right about projection bias but he muddles things when he starts talking about "southern" this and "northern" that. He should stick to talking about roughly what the axes seem to show, Basal-less vs Basal-more and ANE-less vs ANE-more.

Here you can see where those "southern"-looking Hungarian and Balkan (Croatian-Bulgarian) Bronze and Iron Age samples would roughly fall in a PCA with no projection bias ("PC scores of projected individuals are often biased toward zero relative to individuals used to compute PCs. This has the effect of shrinking the plot of projected data." - http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v21/n5/full/ejhg2012258a.html):

http://i.imgur.com/FKjZm0Q.jpg

Black circle = ancient samples, plotting roughly with some Spaniards - North Italians - some Tuscans
Red = central-northern Greeks - Albanians - Bulgarians
Green = Croatians - Hungarians
Black lines = delineating where Sardinians and EEF are

To get to the South Balkans, and Bronze-Iron Age Albania-Greece-Aegean remain unsampled mind you, you need something extra that pushes you towards ANE-more then something that pushes you towards Basal-less for the Northern Balkans - or both at the same time for the latter; and even for the earlier group, it was probably a bit of tug-of-war since PCA simplifies these things. We can call those populations "Anatolians" and "Slavs" in a generic sense, considering historical ties with the Balkans, while including in them all sorts of populations that have similar proportions. We also have no clue when and how gradually this shift happened, yet.

Another interesting question is why XBOX is spending so much time on this instead of worrying about the comparatively much more massive population turnovers happening elsewhere. Presumably a combination of huwhite is right and his hatred of the WOP and the ANE! But psychoanalyzing aside, when a man is right - a man is right.

Also, please someone tell LABERIA that he very likely has prosfig blood in him, thanks.

[The Destroyer]

Where I2a1b most likely expanded from:
http://s25.postimg.org/ytxbq3pfj/cu_trip_migration_dynamics_22102015.jpg

It's just a theory. You can't confirm that yet.

[Faklon]

Only 3 Malak_Presvalets samples approach Iberians as being notably WHG shifted, the fault in using this plot (http://imgur.com/FKjZm0Q) is that it predates the lesser WHG-afiliated Anatolian farmer samples, you should at least combine it with this one:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-ePvS7XQ-WOo/Vlc6nJS6W6I/AAAAAAAAKNU/l78HMVe4wg4/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/mathieson.jpg

Which ultimately pulls Balkan Bronze and Iron Age further away from iberians, I think nightrider's placement was on spot.


I take it you don't like Polako's Eurogenes calculators?

Polrebby is my favorite anthropological type, however the polrebby trooper as mighty as he can be, he's a stubborn specimen.


I don't give a fuck what you think piss of shit, we are right between Tuscans, Thessaly & Bulgaria.
Plotting near North Italians or Spanish would be the last thing happening for an Albanian so shut your fucking mouth, sperging negropolreby.

Wp but as explained before the negropolreby is a mighty trooper, xppp, obvious from his defence mechanisms and eternal coping, is spiritually Sikeliotid. All together resulting in the absolute red-pilled incel specimen.


I didn't claim modern Balkanites are BA Balkanites+Turks, those are Faklon's words

Why don't you quote me in person?

I didn't mention anything about modern Balkanites being a mix of BA Balkanites and Turks, I said that Polako's (whom you have been following) mantra is that modern Balkanites have multiple "MENA" and "North Slavic" influences raising their CHG and ANE scores which in order pulls them further away from Iberians. Are you suggesting that you had another theory in mind when you came in here nigging WE WUZ DINARICS?

[Dick]

Congrats to my distant cousin Xhak "the J2erk" Bauër for becoming a confirmed True Illyrian.

[Wrong]

Congrats to my distant cousin Xhak "the J2erk" Bauër for becoming a confirmed True Illyrian.
https://68.media.tumblr.com/1abff515da833dc4b37a1d88b5058214/tumblr_oj1h5qcvkC1vm21jzo1_500.gif

[Rethel]

True Illyrian.

True Illyrian is R1. http://emotikona.pl/emotikony/pic/037.gif

[Dick]

True Illyrian is R1. http://emotikona.pl/emotikony/pic/037.gif

Not according to this study. Re-read the whole thread

[Rethel]

Not according to this study. Re-read the whole thread

Where did you read, that Illyrians, when they came into Balkans,
where non-IE speakers and I2, and what evidence you have for
it, if they did not remain any lingustic trace?

If someone will say, that Q9 is polish becasue it has the highest
density in Suwałki, it doesn't mean, that Poles, and especially
Polans are Q or Amersyberindians. It simply does exist here.

[Dick]

Where did you read, that Illyrians, when they came into Balkans,
where non-IE speakers and I2, and what evidence you have for
it, if they did not remain any lingustic trace?

Your english is pathetic. I barely understand what you're trying to say to me.

[Rethel]

Your english is pathetic. I barely understand what you're trying to say to me.

So, learn polish, and we'll talk like humans... Oh, I forgot, that you are unable to learn... :pout:

[Dick]

So, learn polish, and we'll talk like humans... Oh, I forgot, that you are unable to learn... :pout:

Why would I bother learning Polish when Magnolia can translate what you are trying to say to me anyway.

[Rethel]

Why would I bother learning Polish when Magnolia can translate what you are trying to say to me anyway.

Because one day, Mahnolia can dissappear :laugh:

[XenophobicPrussian]

XenophobicBOrussian is right about projection bias but he muddles things when he starts talking about "southern" this and "northern" that. He should stick to talking about roughly what the axes seem to show, Basal-less vs Basal-more and ANE-less vs ANE-more.

Here you can see where those "southern"-looking Hungarian and Balkan (Croatian-Bulgarian) Bronze and Iron Age samples would roughly fall in a PCA with no projection bias ("PC scores of projected individuals are often biased toward zero relative to individuals used to compute PCs. This has the effect of shrinking the plot of projected data." - http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v21/n5/full/ejhg2012258a.html):

http://i.imgur.com/FKjZm0Q.jpg

Black circle = ancient samples, plotting roughly with some Spaniards - North Italians - some Tuscans
Red = central-northern Greeks - Albanians - Bulgarians
Green = Croatians - Hungarians
Black lines = delineating where Sardinians and EEF are

To get to the South Balkans, and Bronze-Iron Age Albania-Greece-Aegean remain unsampled mind you, you need something extra that pushes you towards ANE-more then something that pushes you towards Basal-less for the Northern Balkans - or both at the same time for the latter; and even for the earlier group, it was probably a bit of tug-of-war since PCA simplifies these things. We can call those populations "Anatolians" and "Slavs" in a generic sense, considering historical ties with the Balkans, while including in them all sorts of populations that have similar proportions. We also have no clue when and how gradually this shift happened, yet.

Another interesting question is why XBOX is spending so much time on this instead of worrying about the comparatively much more massive population turnovers happening elsewhere. Presumably a combination of huwhite is right and his hatred of the WOP and the ANE! But psychoanalyzing aside, when a man is right - a man is right.

Also, please someone tell LABERIA that he very likely has prosfig blood in him, thanks.
Yes, in order to get to modern Bulgarians from BA Bulgarians you would need something extremely ANE heavy, like Yamnaya, something similar existed in Scythians during this time period. However, modern Balto-Slavs, Corded Ware/LMBA steppe populations+Turks or a middle-eastern population also does the trick. I don't argue for either or, the end result is more important to me than the how.

I appreciate the intellectual honesty and fair analysis.

[XenophobicPrussian]

Btw, here's the properly done PCA from the Bell Beaker paper I was referring to. Very different from this one.

http://s6.ifotos.pl/img/beaker-pc_aaqasnw.png

The positions of North Italian Bell Beakers are rather disappointing(basically implies the Bell Beakers who migrated there mixed right away didn't stay unmixed long enough to remain an "elite" like my WE WUZ VIKANGZ ass would want), but I'll reserve judgement for when we get more samples, Bell Beaker migration wasn't the last Indo-European migration into the Appenine Peninsula before the Roman Republic either.

[Voskos]

Where I2a1b most likely expanded from:
http://s25.postimg.org/ytxbq3pfj/cu_trip_migration_dynamics_22102015.jpg

indeed, however there was also some E in ukraine before slavic expansion.

[jingorex]

sigh...again no G1...

https://media.giphy.com/media/LwAjTGdSWNRYc/giphy.gif
https://media.giphy.com/media/3oEjI789af0AVurF60/giphy.gif

[Rethel]

sigh...again no G1...

G2 isn't enuagh for you? :)

[ADonkeyBrain]

Xeno, forget the Turks my man. There's nothing that points to "Turks". The "Anatolian" part of it has to do with the CHG/Iran_Neo-heavy pre-Turkic populations of the area since the Chalcolithic.

Anatolian Turkish ancestry doesn't exist in Balkanites in any decent amounts, just compare their Central-East Asian components to the Balkans. Though I'm sure all those Bulgars, Pechenegs, Uz and whatever else left the tiny Eastern components you find sometimes, especially in the Northeast Balkans.

"(pre-Turkic) Anatolians" and "Slavs", that's what it looks like so far but we'll see.

[Voskos]

Xeno, forget the Turks my man. There's nothing that points to "Turks". The "Anatolian" part of it has to do with the CHG/Iran_Neo-heavy pre-Turkic populations of the area since the Chalcolithic.

Anatolian Turkish ancestry doesn't exist in Balkanites in any decent amounts, just compare their Central-East Asian components to the Balkans. Though I'm sure all those Bulgars, Pechenegs, Uz and whatever else left the tiny Eastern components you find sometimes, especially in the Northeast Balkans.

"(pre-Turkic) Anatolians" and "Slavs", that's what it looks like so far but we'll see.

yes, hellenthal's study from 2014 has Greeks as 63% Cypriot+ 37%Slavic

[jingorex]

G2 isn't enuagh for you? :)

Maybe i'm just being a G snob? I would really like to see more concrete data on my G1 tho, until i do i remain convinced that i was engineered by ancient aliens.

https://media.giphy.com/media/YlkswnOSeBLlS/giphy.gif

[Rethel]

Maybe i'm just being a G snob? I would really like to see more concrete data on my G1 tho, until i do i remain convinced that i was engineered by ancient aliens.

Take example from me. I am happy for every R1b which is founded, self being R1a :)

[ADonkeyBrain]

yes, hellenthal's study from 2014 has Greeks as 63% Cypriot+ 37%Slavic

Yes, of course the Balkans never looked like either of those so this modelling sounds more dramatic than the reality likely is. I'm wondering how Bronze Age Crete and Cyprus will turn out. Bet they will already be moved towards their modern position overall and will show strong connections to Anatolia but who knows.

Either way this new study sort of tends to point to what we generally know, that the Balkans have had connections mostly to Anatolia and Northeast Europe that start-and-stop-and-repeat - since forever.

[cosmoo]

Where I2a1b most likely expanded from:
http://s25.postimg.org/ytxbq3pfj/cu_trip_migration_dynamics_22102015.jpg

There is nothing which ties I2a1b to that area, as by modern distribution (of older clades, Isles and Disles) AND by ancient DNA (most of northwestern Mesolithic hunter-gatherers plus Neolithic England and Scotland were I2a1b) it is clear I2a1b arose in northwestern Europe, and is native to that area.
But I suppose you were talking about I2a1b "Dinaric"? Dinaric is merely a branch of Disles, which has highest concentration on British Isles. Also, Motala12 sample from Mesolithic Sweden is I2a1b "Dinaric". There is nothing which would make it eastern European. We can only speculate when its bearers adopted Slavic language, but most probably it happened quite recently.

[jingorex]

Take example from me. I am happy for every R1b which is founded, self being R1a :)

perhaps you're right.

https://media.giphy.com/media/tsgNNs93oIbwk/giphy.gif

[Coolguy1]

My mother's side is I2a2a2 (I-M223), belonging to the branch that spans the Mediterranean. TMRCA with French and German members is estimated at over 7,000 years ago. Perhaps a descendant of one of these I2a2 Balkan samples. :)

[Lek]

You forget that my original post you first responded to was simply telling an Albanian who claimed "Balkanites have 100% autosomal continuity from the Bronze Age" he was wrong.

"Farmer shifted Tuscans" 3 of them are, yes, the other 5 red squares are closer to N. Italians than Tuscans, but "farmer shifted Tuscans" is just nitpicking here and you're basically agreeing with my point. The copper age ones are all N. Italian.

There are literally no samples from southern Bulgaria, not sure why you said that. They're all on the Romanian border, and there's not much difference between Bulgarian samples and far northern Croatian ones.

I didn't claim modern Balkanites are BA Balkanites+Turks, those are Faklon's words. I didn't even suggest a source. All I said was they were N. Italian, or not modern Balkanites. You basically agreed you can't get modern Bulgarians from BA Bulgarians+modern Balto-Slavs, so we're on the same page. Lots of potential other populations. Yamnaya(although seems unlikely as the initial Yamnaya push had already happened and Yamnaya didn't exist in the late bronze age anymore), the Iron Age Scythian from Hungary who was pretty south-eastern compared to Europeans, copper age Anatolians, etc. Doesn't have to be Turks, doesn't make them anyless southern shifted though.

Yeah youre right.

But there actually is a continuity as there are Albanians who do plot north as north italy just east without any slavic or germanic admix.

There seems to of been a certain genetic gap between north and south Balkans which is why some of these plot more south with tuscans and others more north italy. Those Southern plotting Albanians , including some Ghegs here, really do seem to have Southern ancestry and closer plotting to Tuscans. They are not gonna plot with that Dalmatian found even if he was already mixed. He'd be closer to some really north plotting Albanian or north Italian.

Bulgarian average is also more north than tuscan. Thracian samples plotted east of tuscan but northern ilyrian would be more northern plotting, thisis wherei plot

https://image.ibb.co/iGMKnv/Ali_Pasha.png

Those cimrians, veneto etc are just north italian areas on average.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

You mean J2b2-M241 and it's Euro branches can be called as a Illyrian, unlike J2b1-M205 which is more connected to Roman expansion. (https://j2-m172.info/2016/01/exogenous-roman-era-york-3drif-26-is-j2b1-m205-and-likely-middle-eastener/)
E-V13 is highly ''indoeuropeanised'' before it's expansion with Romans, Greeks, Thracians or even Germans.

This seems very plausible theory, I can attest this with my results I get which tells me that my family lineage at past was greatly affected genetically by indo-european groups.

[Geni]

All these Gheg haplogroups... Feels good.

http://i.imgur.com/A9A7Y8m.png

This is my group....hmm..interesting

[Lek]

Btw big boss, those ydna's are also found in greeks and tosks and for sure not anymore gheg but one thing for sure most of you south plotting and high greek scoring did not come from those parts of the balkans , they plot nowhere even close to you.

[Trojet]

You mean J2b2-M241 and it's Euro branches can be called as a Illyrian, unlike J2b1-M205 which is more connected to Roman expansion. (https://j2-m172.info/2016/01/exogenous-roman-era-york-3drif-26-is-j2b1-m205-and-likely-middle-eastener/)
E-V13 is highly ''indoeuropeanised'' before it's expansion with Romans, Greeks, Thracians or even Germans.

There is only one J2b2-M241 Euro branch, which is J2b2a-L283 and its subclades. There is an old early Neolithic split of M241 into L283 "Europe" and Z2432 "South Asia". So I think it's time for people to stop using M241 SNP, and use J2b2-L283 (J-L283) when we're talking about the Euro J2b2, as I have been doing for years now. (It's like still using the upstream E-M78 when we're talking about E-V13).

[Wrong]

Btw big boss, those ydna's are also found in greeks and tosks and for sure not anymore gheg but one thing for sure most of you south plotting and high greek scoring did not come from those parts of the balkans , they plot nowhere even close to you.
Nah man, I'm Ancient Greek + Illyrian. I probably have the Ancient J2b2-L283 clade, forefather of your clades.

Fustan theorizes that I have the ancestral J2b2-L283 clade because I'm an Ancient beast.

[Wrong]

^This is the real deal.

[Jana]

I am dissapointed because there isn't any gedmatch sample of ancient J2b2 Dalmatian and R1b L23 Vučedol man.
Entire mystery of pre-Slavic population of the area could be solved if we saw their autosomal reusults (it is known they were steppe admixed, but not as much as other Europeans). So it could mean that even in proto Illyrian times population was largerly desndended from pre Indo-European natives joined with steppe elite invaders.

[Wrong]

I am dissapointed because there isn't any gedmatch sample of ancient J2b2 Dalmatian and R1b L23 Vučedol man.
Entire mystery of pre-Slavic population of the area could be solved if we saw their autosomal reusults (it is known they were steppe admixed, but not as much as other Europeans). So it could mean that even in proto Illyrian times population was largerly desndended from pre Indo-European natives joined with steppe elite invaders.
Yeahhhhhh. What the fuck is up with these reluctant geneticists keeping vital information away from the hungry crowd?

[Jana]

Yeah. What the fuck is up with these reluctant scientists keeping vital information away from the hungry crowd?
Can't understand why they aren't available on gedmatch. Polish samples came out few days ago and we already have their autosomal.
Seems south-eastern Europe is totally neglected when it comes to autosomal samples. I didn't even see proper Thracian sample yet people talk often about.

I wonder if we can ask some of the guys that have convertable software to run this samples on gedmatch if they are available in the research paper.

[Wrong]

Can't understand why they aren't available on gedmatch. Polish samples came out few days ago and we already have their autosomal.
Seems south-eastern Europe is totally neglected when it comes to autosomal samples. I didn't even see proper Thracian sample yet people talk often about.

I wonder if we can ask some of the guys that have convertable software to run this samples on gedmatch if they are available in the research paper.
I have a feeling Ancient Greek results will be even more difficult to get info from.

This is important to me as I have a great deal of Ancient Greek ancestry as evident from my Autosomal results, be it Ancient Doric/Epirotean.

[Jana]

I have a feeling Ancient Greek results will be even more difficult to get info from.
This is important to me as I have a great deal of Ancient Greek ancestry as evident from my Autosomal results, be it Ancient Doric/Epirotean.

It is indeed strange how we don't have single ancient Greek sample yet, and they were most important classical civilisation togheder with Romans.

[The Destroyer]

It is indeed strange how we don't have single ancient Greek sample yet, and they were most important classical civilisation togheder with Romans.

Maybe these SE European samples exist, but researchers are unwilling to release them to the public for some reason? (conspiracy theory)

[Jana]

Maybe these SE European samples exist, but researchers are unwilling to release them to the public for some reason? (conspiracy theory)
We don't know the reasons. Southeastern Europe is seriously under sampled area and that shouldn't be the case. For example in case of Bosnia there are many Illyrian sites from where DNA can be extracted and we can finally know the truth.
But maybe it is matter of money for all these countries.

[Dick]

I'm an Ancient beast.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/2c/8e/a7/2c8ea78291a7efe21928337848297cef.gif

[Dick]

We don't know the reasons. Southeastern Europe is seriously under sampled area and that shouldn't be the case. For example in case of Bosnia there are many Illyrian sites from where DNA can be extracted and we can finally know the truth.
But maybe it is matter of money for all these countries.

I thought litvin ran his dna through his k36 ancient calc. ask him.

[Jana]

I thought litvin ran his dna through his k36 ancient calc. ask him.
Which sample you mean ?

[Dick]

Which sample you mean ?

Teh illirjan that you're talking about

[Fustan]

I hope this shuts down especially the Bosniaks here with massive identity krisis who think I2a is I2allyrian.

[Dick]

I hope this shuts down especially the Bosniaks here with massive identity krisis who think I2a is I2allyrian.

Bosniaks built pyramids.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

Bosniaks built pyramids.

They are our white version of we wuz building pyrimidz and sheit.

[Dick]

They are our white version of we wuz building pyrimidz and sheit.

http://takebackhalloween.org/wp-content/uploads/products_img/ras-7047.jpg

[Lucas]

I re-uploaded two neolithic genomes from Greece http://www.open-genomes.org/genomes/Hofmanova%20(2016)/

Z394045 Rev5 Revenia, Central Greece 6438–6264 BCE

Puntdnal K13
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 SW_Europe 60
2 SW_Asia 16.14
3 West_Asia 7.65
4 NE_Europe 6.8
5 West_Africa 5.77
6 NE_Asia 1.6
7 Oceania 1.58
8 SE_Asia 0.23
9 South_Africa 0.22

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Italian_Sicilian 26.81
2 Italian_Abruzzo 27.39
3 Sephardic_Jew 27.8
4 Ashkenazy_Jew 28.25
5 Italian_Bergamo 29.01
6 Italian_Tuscan 29.05
7 Mozabite 29.19
8 Tunisian 29.57
9 Spaniard 29.95
10 Algerian 30.41
11 Puerto_Rican 30.98
12 French_Basque 31.06
13 Albanian 31.09
14 Greek_Central 31.18
15 Greek_Thessaly 31.18
16 Moroccan 31.54
17 Saharawi 31.94
18 Kosovar 32.28
19 Cypriot 33.31
20 Macedonian 35.43

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 52.6% Mozabite + 47.4% French_Basque @ 18.98
2 50.6% French_Basque + 49.4% Moroccan @ 19.98
3 51.2% French_Basque + 48.8% Saharawi @ 20.44
4 52.3% Tunisian + 47.7% French_Basque @ 20.56
5 51% Algerian + 49% French_Basque @ 20.58
6 50.3% Italian_Bergamo + 49.7% Mozabite @ 21.2
7 51.3% Mozabite + 48.7% Spaniard @ 21.26
8 61.4% French_Basque + 38.6% Egyptian_Copts @ 22.1
9 61.2% French_Basque + 38.8% Samaritan_Jew @ 22.14
10 50.3% Italian_Tuscan + 49.7% Mozabite @ 22.39
11 55.3% Italian_Bergamo + 44.7% Saharawi @ 22.47
12 54.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 45.6% Mozabite @ 22.61
13 61.8% French_Basque + 38.2% Egyptian @ 22.62
14 52.8% Spaniard + 47.2% Moroccan @ 22.66
15 53.5% Spaniard + 46.5% Saharawi @ 22.67
16 53.5% French_Basque + 46.5% Cypriot @ 22.74
17 54.9% Italian_Bergamo + 45.1% Moroccan @ 22.93
18 50.9% Spaniard + 49.1% Algerian @ 23.02
19 57.3% Sephardic_Jew + 42.7% French_Basque @ 23.06
20 50.8% Tunisian + 49.2% Spaniard @ 23.12


Eurogenes K15

Kit Z394045

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 38.76
2 East_Med 28.79
3 Atlantic 20.76
4 Red_Sea 5.68
5 Sub-Saharan 4.88
6 Oceanian 1.13

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sardinian 15.45
2 Algerian_Jewish 23.16
3 West_Sicilian 23.9
4 Mozabite_Berber 24.44
5 Tunisian 24.55
6 Italian_Jewish 25.07
7 Tuscan 25.18
8 South_Italian 25.55
9 Moroccan 25.71
10 Algerian 25.79
11 Sephardic_Jewish 25.94
12 North_Italian 26.54
13 East_Sicilian 26.6
14 Spanish_Andalucia 27.54
15 Central_Greek 27.54
16 Tunisian_Jewish 27.66
17 Italian_Abruzzo 27.7
18 Greek 27.89
19 Ashkenazi 28.89
20 Libyan_Jewish 28.92

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 78.8% Sardinian + 21.2% Yemenite_Jewish @ 9.13
2 65% Sardinian + 35% Tunisian @ 9.46
3 74.4% Sardinian + 25.6% Egyptian @ 9.5
4 75.3% Sardinian + 24.7% Palermianin @ 9.65
5 63.8% Sardinian + 36.2% Algerian_Jewish @ 9.83
6 68.5% Sardinian + 31.5% Tunisian_Jewish @ 9.86
7 74.3% Sardinian + 25.7% Samaritan @ 10.01
8 76.9% Sardinian + 23.1% Lebanese_Druze @ 10.02
9 75.8% Sardinian + 24.2% Jordanian @ 10.09
10 75.9% Sardinian + 24.1% Lebanese_Christian @ 10.18

[Lucas]

Z732775 Kleitos 10 (late neolithic Greece)


Puntdnal K13

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 SW_Europe 58.98
2 SW_Asia 16.83
3 West_Asia 16.12
4 NE_Europe 4.74
5 West_Africa 1.65
6 NE_Asia 0.68
7 Oceania 0.46
8 South_Africa 0.37
9 SE_Asia 0.17

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Italian_Sicilian 22.48
2 Sephardic_Jew 23.01
3 Ashkenazy_Jew 24.01
4 Italian_Abruzzo 24.07
5 Cypriot 26.8
6 Italian_Tuscan 27.53
7 Greek_Central 27.73
8 Italian_Bergamo 28.86
9 Greek_Thessaly 28.97
10 Albanian 29.15
11 Tunisian 29.83
12 Kosovar 30.31
13 Spaniard 31.44
14 Mozabite 31.67
15 Algerian 31.72
16 Moroccan 32.5
17 Lebanese_Christian 32.75
18 Puerto_Rican 33.48
19 French_Basque 33.96
20 Syrian 33.98

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.5% Cypriot + 39.5% French_Basque @ 19.89
2 51.2% French_Basque + 48.8% Samaritan_Jew @ 20
3 73.6% Sephardic_Jew + 26.4% French_Basque @ 20.92
4 75.6% Italian_Sicilian + 24.4% Mozabite @ 21.15
5 51.5% Lebanese_Christian + 48.5% French_Basque @ 21.43
6 79.8% Italian_Sicilian + 20.2% French_Basque @ 21.47
7 68.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 31.6% Mozabite @ 21.54
8 53.6% French_Basque + 46.4% Egyptian_Copts @ 21.57
9 81.2% Italian_Sicilian + 18.8% Saharawi @ 21.62
10 76.4% Sephardic_Jew + 23.6% Mozabite @ 21.89
11 70.3% Ashkenazy_Jew + 29.7% Mozabite @ 21.99
12 84% Italian_Sicilian + 16% Moroccan @ 22.01
13 50.2% French_Basque + 49.8% Jordanian @ 22.02
14 84.1% Italian_Sicilian + 15.9% Algerian @ 22.06
15 59.6% Cypriot + 40.4% Spaniard @ 22.08
16 50.2% French_Basque + 49.8% Lebanese_Druze @ 22.09
17 85.1% Italian_Sicilian + 14.9% Tunisian @ 22.21
18 51.2% French_Basque + 48.8% Lebanese_Muslim @ 22.21
19 73.8% Italian_Abruzzo + 26.2% Saharawi @ 22.23
20 79.2% Sephardic_Jew + 20.8% Spaniard @ 22.26

[Lucas]

Also for comparison - neolithic Anatolia on Gedmatch

Z892662 Barcin 31 (neolithic Anatolia)
Z155641 Barcin 8 (neolithic Anatolia)

Barcin 8 has even modern relatives:)

[Sikeliot]

Z732775 Kleitos 10 (late neolithic Greece)


Puntdnal K13

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 SW_Europe 58.98
2 SW_Asia 16.83
3 West_Asia 16.12
4 NE_Europe 4.74
5 West_Africa 1.65
6 NE_Asia 0.68
7 Oceania 0.46
8 South_Africa 0.37
9 SE_Asia 0.17

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Italian_Sicilian 22.48
2 Sephardic_Jew 23.01
3 Ashkenazy_Jew 24.01
4 Italian_Abruzzo 24.07
5 Cypriot 26.8
6 Italian_Tuscan 27.53
7 Greek_Central 27.73
8 Italian_Bergamo 28.86
9 Greek_Thessaly 28.97
10 Albanian 29.15
11 Tunisian 29.83
12 Kosovar 30.31
13 Spaniard 31.44
14 Mozabite 31.67
15 Algerian 31.72
16 Moroccan 32.5
17 Lebanese_Christian 32.75
18 Puerto_Rican 33.48
19 French_Basque 33.96
20 Syrian 33.98

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 60.5% Cypriot + 39.5% French_Basque @ 19.89
2 51.2% French_Basque + 48.8% Samaritan_Jew @ 20
3 73.6% Sephardic_Jew + 26.4% French_Basque @ 20.92
4 75.6% Italian_Sicilian + 24.4% Mozabite @ 21.15
5 51.5% Lebanese_Christian + 48.5% French_Basque @ 21.43
6 79.8% Italian_Sicilian + 20.2% French_Basque @ 21.47
7 68.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 31.6% Mozabite @ 21.54
8 53.6% French_Basque + 46.4% Egyptian_Copts @ 21.57
9 81.2% Italian_Sicilian + 18.8% Saharawi @ 21.62
10 76.4% Sephardic_Jew + 23.6% Mozabite @ 21.89
11 70.3% Ashkenazy_Jew + 29.7% Mozabite @ 21.99
12 84% Italian_Sicilian + 16% Moroccan @ 22.01
13 50.2% French_Basque + 49.8% Jordanian @ 22.02
14 84.1% Italian_Sicilian + 15.9% Algerian @ 22.06
15 59.6% Cypriot + 40.4% Spaniard @ 22.08
16 50.2% French_Basque + 49.8% Lebanese_Druze @ 22.09
17 85.1% Italian_Sicilian + 14.9% Tunisian @ 22.21
18 51.2% French_Basque + 48.8% Lebanese_Muslim @ 22.21
19 73.8% Italian_Abruzzo + 26.2% Saharawi @ 22.23
20 79.2% Sephardic_Jew + 20.8% Spaniard @ 22.26



I re-uploaded two neolithic genomes from Greece http://www.open-genomes.org/genomes/Hofmanova%20(2016)/

Z394045 Rev5 Revenia, Central Greece 6438–6264 BCE

Puntdnal K13
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 SW_Europe 60
2 SW_Asia 16.14
3 West_Asia 7.65
4 NE_Europe 6.8
5 West_Africa 5.77
6 NE_Asia 1.6
7 Oceania 1.58
8 SE_Asia 0.23
9 South_Africa 0.22

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Italian_Sicilian 26.81
2 Italian_Abruzzo 27.39
3 Sephardic_Jew 27.8
4 Ashkenazy_Jew 28.25
5 Italian_Bergamo 29.01
6 Italian_Tuscan 29.05
7 Mozabite 29.19
8 Tunisian 29.57
9 Spaniard 29.95
10 Algerian 30.41
11 Puerto_Rican 30.98
12 French_Basque 31.06
13 Albanian 31.09
14 Greek_Central 31.18
15 Greek_Thessaly 31.18
16 Moroccan 31.54
17 Saharawi 31.94
18 Kosovar 32.28
19 Cypriot 33.31
20 Macedonian 35.43

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 52.6% Mozabite + 47.4% French_Basque @ 18.98
2 50.6% French_Basque + 49.4% Moroccan @ 19.98
3 51.2% French_Basque + 48.8% Saharawi @ 20.44
4 52.3% Tunisian + 47.7% French_Basque @ 20.56
5 51% Algerian + 49% French_Basque @ 20.58
6 50.3% Italian_Bergamo + 49.7% Mozabite @ 21.2
7 51.3% Mozabite + 48.7% Spaniard @ 21.26
8 61.4% French_Basque + 38.6% Egyptian_Copts @ 22.1
9 61.2% French_Basque + 38.8% Samaritan_Jew @ 22.14
10 50.3% Italian_Tuscan + 49.7% Mozabite @ 22.39
11 55.3% Italian_Bergamo + 44.7% Saharawi @ 22.47
12 54.4% Italian_Abruzzo + 45.6% Mozabite @ 22.61
13 61.8% French_Basque + 38.2% Egyptian @ 22.62
14 52.8% Spaniard + 47.2% Moroccan @ 22.66
15 53.5% Spaniard + 46.5% Saharawi @ 22.67
16 53.5% French_Basque + 46.5% Cypriot @ 22.74
17 54.9% Italian_Bergamo + 45.1% Moroccan @ 22.93
18 50.9% Spaniard + 49.1% Algerian @ 23.02
19 57.3% Sephardic_Jew + 42.7% French_Basque @ 23.06
20 50.8% Tunisian + 49.2% Spaniard @ 23.12


Eurogenes K15

Kit Z394045

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 38.76
2 East_Med 28.79
3 Atlantic 20.76
4 Red_Sea 5.68
5 Sub-Saharan 4.88
6 Oceanian 1.13

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sardinian 15.45
2 Algerian_Jewish 23.16
3 West_Sicilian 23.9
4 Mozabite_Berber 24.44
5 Tunisian 24.55
6 Italian_Jewish 25.07
7 Tuscan 25.18
8 South_Italian 25.55
9 Moroccan 25.71
10 Algerian 25.79
11 Sephardic_Jewish 25.94
12 North_Italian 26.54
13 East_Sicilian 26.6
14 Spanish_Andalucia 27.54
15 Central_Greek 27.54
16 Tunisian_Jewish 27.66
17 Italian_Abruzzo 27.7
18 Greek 27.89
19 Ashkenazi 28.89
20 Libyan_Jewish 28.92

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 78.8% Sardinian + 21.2% Yemenite_Jewish @ 9.13
2 65% Sardinian + 35% Tunisian @ 9.46
3 74.4% Sardinian + 25.6% Egyptian @ 9.5
4 75.3% Sardinian + 24.7% Palermianin @ 9.65
5 63.8% Sardinian + 36.2% Algerian_Jewish @ 9.83
6 68.5% Sardinian + 31.5% Tunisian_Jewish @ 9.86
7 74.3% Sardinian + 25.7% Samaritan @ 10.01
8 76.9% Sardinian + 23.1% Lebanese_Druze @ 10.02
9 75.8% Sardinian + 24.2% Jordanian @ 10.09
10 75.9% Sardinian + 24.1% Lebanese_Christian @ 10.18



They are like Sicilians with a much higher West Med influence and SSA, but at a large distance. Here they are using Dodecad K12b... they're in between between Ashkenazi/Sicilian and Sardinian, and not plotting with any modern-day existing people.

They're actually further from Levantines than modern Greeks, let alone Sicilians, are, and have a much stronger West Med input. The North European is entirely absent in Dodecad for some which shows that came with Indo-Europeans.

I wonder how this would compare to Sicilians of the same period.

Kleitos 10:

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Med 45.3
2 Caucasus 34.58
3 Southwest_Asian 13.5
4 Northwest_African 4.53
5 Sub_Saharan 1.65
6 Southeast_Asian 0.24
7 East_African 0.2

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian (Dodecad) 18.66
2 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 18.87
3 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 19
4 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 19.75
5 C_Italian (Dodecad) 19.87
6 Tuscan (HGDP) 20.78
7 TSI30 (Metspalu) 21.22
8 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 22.14
9 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 23.03
10 North_Italian (HGDP) 24.54
11 O_Italian (Dodecad) 24.94
12 Greek (Dodecad) 25.43
13 N_Italian (Dodecad) 26.34
14 Sardinian (HGDP) 27.61
15 Cypriots (Behar) 27.86
16 Andalucia (1000Genomes) 28.83
17 Canarias (1000Genomes) 29.22
18 Murcia (1000Genomes) 29.29
19 Baleares (1000Genomes) 29.49
20 Galicia (1000Genomes) 31.38

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 58.8% Sardinian (HGDP) + 41.2% Samaritians (Behar) @ 4.47
2 56.5% Sardinian (HGDP) + 43.5% Druze (HGDP) @ 4.53
3 50.2% Sardinian (HGDP) + 49.8% Cypriots (Behar) @ 4.75
4 58.9% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 41.1% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 6.1
5 56.1% Sardinian (HGDP) + 43.9% Lebanese (Behar) @ 6.53
6 60.4% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 39.6% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 6.97
7 57.6% Sardinian (HGDP) + 42.4% Palestinian (HGDP) @ 7.17
8 60% Sardinian (HGDP) + 40% Iraq_Jews (Behar) @ 7.32
9 57.4% Sardinian (HGDP) + 42.6% Jordanians (Behar) @ 7.37
10 61% Sardinian (HGDP) + 39% Georgia_Jews (Behar) @ 7.52
11 61.4% Sardinian (HGDP) + 38.6% Iranian_Jews (Behar) @ 7.75
12 57.3% Sardinian (HGDP) + 42.7% Syrians (Behar) @ 7.79
13 60.3% Sardinian (HGDP) + 39.7% Assyrian (Dodecad) @ 7.98
14 60.6% Sardinian (HGDP) + 39.4% Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) @ 8.17
15 60.4% Sardinian (HGDP) + 39.6% Armenian (Dodecad) @ 8.33
16 56.2% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 43.8% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 8.48
17 61.4% Sardinian (HGDP) + 38.6% Armenians_15 (Yunusbayev) @ 8.63
18 55.1% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 44.9% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 8.73
19 61.8% Sardinian (HGDP) + 38.2% Armenians (Behar) @ 9.1
20 61.5% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 38.5% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 9.1


Revenia:

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Med 46.05
2 Caucasus 29.79
3 Southwest_Asian 11.73
4 Sub_Saharan 6.77
5 Northwest_African 5.35
6 Southeast_Asian 0.31

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 21.32
2 Sicilian (Dodecad) 21.5
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 21.55
4 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 21.96
5 Tuscan (HGDP) 21.99
6 TSI30 (Metspalu) 22.06
7 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 23.11
8 North_Italian (HGDP) 24.17
9 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 25.12
10 O_Italian (Dodecad) 25.56
11 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 25.99
12 N_Italian (Dodecad) 26.03
13 Sardinian (HGDP) 26.3
14 Andalucia (1000Genomes) 26.6
15 Canarias (1000Genomes) 26.84
16 Murcia (1000Genomes) 27.01
17 Baleares (1000Genomes) 27.73
18 Greek (Dodecad) 27.79
19 Extremadura (1000Genomes) 29.21
20 Galicia (1000Genomes) 29.36

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 56.1% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 43.9% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 8.74
2 60.5% Sardinian (HGDP) + 39.5% Jordanians (Behar) @ 9.12
3 60.8% Sardinian (HGDP) + 39.2% Palestinian (HGDP) @ 9.17
4 59.7% Sardinian (HGDP) + 40.3% Lebanese (Behar) @ 9.22
5 53.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 46.2% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 9.35
6 60.8% Sardinian (HGDP) + 39.2% Druze (HGDP) @ 9.57
7 63% Sardinian (HGDP) + 37% Samaritians (Behar) @ 9.66
8 60.6% Sardinian (HGDP) + 39.4% Syrians (Behar) @ 9.74
9 62.1% Sardinian (HGDP) + 37.9% Egyptans (Behar) @ 9.76
10 65.7% Sardinian (HGDP) + 34.3% Yemenese (Behar) @ 9.91
11 55.5% Sardinian (HGDP) + 44.5% Cypriots (Behar) @ 10.07
12 63.9% Sardinian (HGDP) + 36.1% Iraq_Jews (Behar) @ 10.66
13 51.4% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 48.6% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 10.73
14 65.1% Sardinian (HGDP) + 34.9% Iranian_Jews (Behar) @ 10.86
15 50.4% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 49.6% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 10.92
16 64.9% Sardinian (HGDP) + 35.1% Georgia_Jews (Behar) @ 10.93
17 56.4% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 43.6% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 11.01
18 55.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 44.2% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 11.29
19 64.4% Sardinian (HGDP) + 35.6% Assyrian (Dodecad) @ 11.33
20 64.6% Sardinian (HGDP) + 35.4% Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) @ 11.36



Late Neolithic:

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Med 46.05
2 Caucasus 29.79
3 Southwest_Asian 11.73
4 Sub_Saharan 6.77
5 Northwest_African 5.35
6 Southeast_Asian 0.31

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Morocco_Jews (Behar) 21.32
2 Sicilian (Dodecad) 21.5
3 C_Italian (Dodecad) 21.55
4 S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) 21.96
5 Tuscan (HGDP) 21.99
6 TSI30 (Metspalu) 22.06
7 Sephardic_Jews (Behar) 23.11
8 North_Italian (HGDP) 24.17
9 Ashkenazi (Dodecad) 25.12
10 O_Italian (Dodecad) 25.56
11 Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) 25.99
12 N_Italian (Dodecad) 26.03
13 Sardinian (HGDP) 26.3
14 Andalucia (1000Genomes) 26.6
15 Canarias (1000Genomes) 26.84
16 Murcia (1000Genomes) 27.01
17 Baleares (1000Genomes) 27.73
18 Greek (Dodecad) 27.79
19 Extremadura (1000Genomes) 29.21
20 Galicia (1000Genomes) 29.36

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 56.1% Morocco_Jews (Behar) + 43.9% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 8.74
2 60.5% Sardinian (HGDP) + 39.5% Jordanians (Behar) @ 9.12
3 60.8% Sardinian (HGDP) + 39.2% Palestinian (HGDP) @ 9.17
4 59.7% Sardinian (HGDP) + 40.3% Lebanese (Behar) @ 9.22
5 53.8% Sephardic_Jews (Behar) + 46.2% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 9.35
6 60.8% Sardinian (HGDP) + 39.2% Druze (HGDP) @ 9.57
7 63% Sardinian (HGDP) + 37% Samaritians (Behar) @ 9.66
8 60.6% Sardinian (HGDP) + 39.4% Syrians (Behar) @ 9.74
9 62.1% Sardinian (HGDP) + 37.9% Egyptans (Behar) @ 9.76
10 65.7% Sardinian (HGDP) + 34.3% Yemenese (Behar) @ 9.91
11 55.5% Sardinian (HGDP) + 44.5% Cypriots (Behar) @ 10.07
12 63.9% Sardinian (HGDP) + 36.1% Iraq_Jews (Behar) @ 10.66
13 51.4% Ashkenazi (Dodecad) + 48.6% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 10.73
14 65.1% Sardinian (HGDP) + 34.9% Iranian_Jews (Behar) @ 10.86
15 50.4% Ashkenazy_Jews (Behar) + 49.6% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 10.92
16 64.9% Sardinian (HGDP) + 35.1% Georgia_Jews (Behar) @ 10.93
17 56.4% Sicilian (Dodecad) + 43.6% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 11.01
18 55.8% S_Italian_Sicilian (Dodecad) + 44.2% Sardinian (HGDP) @ 11.29
19 64.4% Sardinian (HGDP) + 35.6% Assyrian (Dodecad) @ 11.33
20 64.6% Sardinian (HGDP) + 35.4% Azerbaijan_Jews (Behar) @ 11.36

[Sikeliot]

Eurasia K9 ASI:
# Population Percent
1 WHG 76.06
2 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 23.94

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 RISE_baHu 17.68
2 LaBrana1 28.72
3 RISE_irSca 28.73
4 Bichon 29.16
5 Lithuanian 29.68
6 Estonian 31.2
7 Icelandic 31.63
8 Loschbour 31.78
9 Belarusian 32.09
10 French_South 33.32
11 Finnish 33.35
12 Karelia 33.44
13 Czech 33.69
14 English 34.09
15 Norwegian 34.13
16 Ukrainian 34.8
17 Scottish 34.99
18 Russian 36.06
19 French 36.26
20 Hungarian 36.6

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 76% Loschbour + 24% LBK_EN @ 0.1
2 67.8% Loschbour + 32.2% Iceman @ 0.32
3 69.9% Bichon + 30.1% Iceman @ 5.12
4 77.9% Bichon + 22.1% Anatolia_Neolithic @ 5.6
5 77.9% Bichon + 22.1% LBK_EN @ 5.62
6 66.7% Loschbour + 33.3% Stuttgart @ 6.29
7 70.4% LaBrana1 + 29.6% Iceman @ 6.89
8 78.4% LaBrana1 + 21.6% Anatolia_Neolithic @ 7.56
9 78.4% LaBrana1 + 21.6% LBK_EN @ 7.58
10 60.9% Loschbour + 39.1% Sardinian @ 8.21
11 69% Bichon + 31% Stuttgart @ 8.72
12 69.7% LaBrana1 + 30.3% Stuttgart @ 10.02
13 63.4% Bichon + 36.6% Sardinian @ 10.12
14 64.1% LaBrana1 + 35.9% Sardinian @ 11.15
15 51.3% Loschbour + 48.7% French_South @ 11.3
16 54% Bichon + 46% French_South @ 12.62
17 56.1% Loschbour + 43.9% Spanish @ 12.7
18 54.6% LaBrana1 + 45.4% French_South @ 13.32
19 62.6% Loschbour + 37.4% Tuscan @ 13.98
20 59% Bichon + 41% Spanish @ 14.03

[Sikeliot]

Eurasia K9 ASI:
# Population Percent
1 WHG 76.06
2 Early_Neolithic_Farmers 23.94

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 RISE_baHu 17.68
2 LaBrana1 28.72
3 RISE_irSca 28.73
4 Bichon 29.16
5 Lithuanian 29.68
6 Estonian 31.2
7 Icelandic 31.63
8 Loschbour 31.78
9 Belarusian 32.09
10 French_South 33.32
11 Finnish 33.35
12 Karelia 33.44
13 Czech 33.69
14 English 34.09
15 Norwegian 34.13
16 Ukrainian 34.8
17 Scottish 34.99
18 Russian 36.06
19 French 36.26
20 Hungarian 36.6

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 76% Loschbour + 24% LBK_EN @ 0.1
2 67.8% Loschbour + 32.2% Iceman @ 0.32
3 69.9% Bichon + 30.1% Iceman @ 5.12
4 77.9% Bichon + 22.1% Anatolia_Neolithic @ 5.6
5 77.9% Bichon + 22.1% LBK_EN @ 5.62
6 66.7% Loschbour + 33.3% Stuttgart @ 6.29
7 70.4% LaBrana1 + 29.6% Iceman @ 6.89
8 78.4% LaBrana1 + 21.6% Anatolia_Neolithic @ 7.56
9 78.4% LaBrana1 + 21.6% LBK_EN @ 7.58
10 60.9% Loschbour + 39.1% Sardinian @ 8.21
11 69% Bichon + 31% Stuttgart @ 8.72
12 69.7% LaBrana1 + 30.3% Stuttgart @ 10.02
13 63.4% Bichon + 36.6% Sardinian @ 10.12
14 64.1% LaBrana1 + 35.9% Sardinian @ 11.15
15 51.3% Loschbour + 48.7% French_South @ 11.3
16 54% Bichon + 46% French_South @ 12.62
17 56.1% Loschbour + 43.9% Spanish @ 12.7
18 54.6% LaBrana1 + 45.4% French_South @ 13.32
19 62.6% Loschbour + 37.4% Tuscan @ 13.98
20 59% Bichon + 41% Spanish @ 14.03

[Sikeliot]

Revenia on Near East Neolithic:

Near East Neolithic is a bit wonky also:

# Population Percent
1 SUB_SAHARAN 100

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Esan 0
2 Yoruba 0
3 Gambian 4.05
4 Mota 25.39
5 Hadza 29.36
6 Masai 43.6
7 Somali 69.58
8 Moroccan 93.17
9 Saharawi 95.81
10 Algerian 96.7
11 Yemeni 102.88
12 Libyan 103.58
13 Egyptian 104.85
14 BedouinA 109.77
15 Jordanian 111.64
16 Iranian_Bandari 112.52
17 Syrian 112.7
18 Palestinian 113.36
19 Lebanese 114.14
20 Jew_Libyan 114.47

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 100% Gambian + 0% Abkhasian @ 4.05
2 100% Gambian + 0% Adygei @ 4.05
3 100% Gambian + 0% Albanian @ 4.05
4 100% Gambian + 0% Algerian @ 4.05
5 100% Gambian + 0% Altaian @ 4.05
6 100% Gambian + 0% Ami @ 4.05
7 100% Gambian + 0% Anatolia_ChL @ 4.05
8 100% Gambian + 0% Anatolia_N @ 4.05
9 100% Gambian + 0% Armenia_ChL @ 4.05
10 100% Gambian + 0% Armenia_MLBA @ 4.05
11 100% Gambian + 0% Armenian @ 4.05
12 100% Gambian + 0% Assyrian @ 4.05
13 100% Gambian + 0% Atayal @ 4.05
14 100% Gambian + 0% Australian @ 4.05
15 100% Gambian + 0% Azeri @ 4.05
16 100% Gambian + 0% Balkar @ 4.05
17 100% Gambian + 0% Balochi @ 4.05
18 100% Gambian + 0% BedouinA @ 4.05
19 100% Gambian + 0% Bengali @ 4.05
20 100% Gambian + 0% Bichon @ 4.05

[Tschaikisten]

Maybe these SE European samples exist, but researchers are unwilling to release them to the public for some reason? (conspiracy theory)

Yeah, conspiracy against apricity ancient bosnian pyramid I2a illyrianZ.

[Fustan]

worth mentioning:

one I2a1 found in Serbia
2 individuals belonging to Y-DNA T in Bulgaria
one R1b Z2105 in Croatia




Father clade of I2a Dinaric :laugh:
cosmoo gothic stronk
http://i.imgur.com/FS2n3po.png

http://i65.tinypic.com/2rzv144.jpg

[Wrong]

http://i65.tinypic.com/2rzv144.jpg
axaxaxaxaxa

+1 broder

raise the horns

[Fustan]

axaxaxaxaxa

+1 broder

raise the horns

another blow to the bosnian piramid dream..

[Wrong]

another blow to the bosnian piramid dream..
http://i.imgur.com/maq1TlQ.png

[Tschaikisten]

http://i65.tinypic.com/2rzv144.jpg

:rofl_002::rofl_002::rofl_002::rofl_002::rofl_002: