Classify 2 countrymen from La Mancha

[Don]

2 representative examples of the old land Of Don Quijote and myself.
Classify.

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6352&d=1289917805

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6353&d=1289917805

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6354&d=1289917805

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6355&d=1289917805

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6356&d=1289917805

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6357&d=1289917805

A video with them.
520WkvU_Nt8

These are typical individuals of the ancient regions of that zone of Castilla, Toledo villages of Montes de Toledo, La Mancha and other zones of that mythical land dwelt from ancestral times by iberians, celtic, and visigoths.

http://www.vootar.com/imgs/elementos/1242242252_Ortega%20Y%20Pacheco A parody.

...


Please, classify.

[antonio]

From an historical point of view I'd state Blonde one come mainly from Indoeuropean(Celtic and Germanic) ancestors while brown one come mainly from Preindoeuropean still maybe indoeuropeized populations. It's curious and nice how racial differences inside White race keep along the centuries while, in countries like Brazil, poorest areas interracial melting-pot fastly become racially amorphous mulato territory.

[Ibericus]

Yes, the blonde has obvious celt-germanic influence, Atlanto-Nordid, the darker one is more paleolithic iberian, gracile-med

[Don]

I'm interested in the dark one mainly.

Some of his traits are found recurrently in my region and usually having children, parents or brothers of the "blonde type" with usual traits as well.



Remember that Iberia is the oldest one/the craddle of The Westers: 800.000 years.
http://cms7.blogia.com/blogs/j/jo/jos/joseluiscano/upload/20091204153404-altamira.jpg

I'm curious about these ancient (and unique?) traits.

Comment.

[Vasconcelos]

Perhaps (gracile) Med and Berid? Common all over the place (Iberia) :)

I'm not too good at taxonomy, which is why I don't venture into classifications that much myself. :p

[Lábaru]

Very dark Cro-Magnon features I think, look primitive traits. I identified it as the darker side of the Iberian phenotype, in the extreme.

[Don]

Very dark Cro-Magnon features I think, look primitive traits. I identified it as the darker side of the Iberian phenotype, in the extreme.

Agree with that, darker and, mainly, MORE ANCESTRAL, as true ancient iberians, as a quite "pure" example of an unique Iberian or the most ancient western european specimen, sustratus that in a major or minor part of modern Spaniards, share in a softened way, defining some of our uniques and characteristic traits, as in other western europeans, in a more subtile and lost way.

Maybe because I have known some people of my family with those similar features in that strong and holistic shown (with brothers or close relatives blondes as well) and I have felt some kind (shared for most of the people, I think) of admiration and respect, not only for the typical rude castilian personality traits that get even more empowered with these phenotypes, but because some dark, hidden and shared derived ideas of primarity, ancestral purity, as alive and almost "uncorrupted" heralds of the ancient dwellers of the oldest land of the West, as a sustratus, an ancestor mainly with who we, spaniards share some or other weakened but unique (ours) traits, with all that implies the concepts that they evoke.

[Erik]

Maybe the fair haired Spaniards are not descendants of immigrants, but Cro-Magnon
and Aurignac's men descendants. See the Guanchos: they had the same skull shape
as the Cro-Magnons did, but they were fair haired and blue eyes. Perhaps the fair
haired nordics came from Southwest-France and Spain.

[Don]

Maybe the fair haired Spaniards are not descendants of immigrants, but Cro-Magnon
and Aurignac's men descendants. See the Guanchos: they had the same skull shape
as the Cro-Magnons did, but they were fair haired and blue eyes. Perhaps the fair
haired nordics came from Southwest-France and Spain.

That is an interesting view that explains many things. I would dare to say that the fairest one is most common than the dark one (extreme version). In my family, one of my uncles is very similar to the dark one (an impressive guy, a man with an aura) and all his sons, my cousins (2 boys and 1 girl) are very similar to the fair haired one, blondes, blue eyes and all the stuff, but with the classical strong and Recio body (the males) of the people of the region. Both phenotypes are ancient from these regions, seen among brothers...

Maybe these both appeared among the ancient dwellers before indoeuropean populations came?...
Many misteries in this old land to discover.

[Lábaru]

Maybe the fair haired Spaniards are not descendants of immigrants, but Cro-Magnon
and Aurignac's men descendants. See the Guanchos: they had the same skull shape
as the Cro-Magnons did, but they were fair haired and blue eyes. Perhaps the fair
haired nordics came from Southwest-France and Spain.

No, the Guanches had dark hair and eyes, with brown-white skin, were essentially pure Berbers, blue eyes and light hair did not appear until the arrival of the Spanish to the Islands.

[Ibericus]

No, the Guanches had dark hair and eyes, with brown-white skin, were essentially pure Berbers, blue eyes and light hair did not appear until the arrival of the Spanish to the Islands.
Some guanches were blonde as described by spanish explorers.

[Erik]

But the Spanish authors wrote that the original Guanchos used to have fair hair and
blue eyes. It is absolute a mistake that fair hair and blue eyes appear after the
Spanish conquest.

So I believe that the Cro-Magnon people of France or Spain must have fair hair and
blue eyes during the Ice Age.

[Lábaru]

Some guanches were blonde as described by spanish explorers.

4% of blondism? like berebers.

[Don]

But the Spanish authors wrote that the original Guanchos used to have fair hair and
blue eyes. It is absolute a mistake that fair hair and blue eyes appear after the
Spanish conquest.

So I believe that the Cro-Magnon people of France or Spain must have fair hair and
blue eyes during the Ice Age.

There must have been examples of fair hair and clear eyes, indeed, previous to indoeuropeans, among the ancient roots of Iberians.

About the guanches... don't know. Nowadays some canarias show a non-Iberic trait, but are examples of northafrican, contrasted with the pale castilians there (called even today by the local canarios "godos"[gothics] in a despective way).


Probably these northafrican types went later to the canaries, don't know, but they are not even similar to the ones found in the ancient Iberia, like these 2 manchegos of my pics.
http://www2.luventicus.org/mapas/europa/canarias.gif


Another mistery...

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3586/3294171085_5ba237162f.jpg?v=0

[Lábaru]

But the Spanish authors wrote that the original Guanchos used to have fair hair and
blue eyes. It is absolute a mistake that fair hair and blue eyes appear after the
Spanish conquest.

So I believe that the Cro-Magnon people of France or Spain must have fair hair and
blue eyes during the Ice Age.

Where? I want to read it.

So far I know is that there was blond mummies but it has been shown to be a product of hair discoloration over time.

Genetics says the old canaries were Berbers.


http://www.canarias7.es/fotos/o/0910/144778-1g.jpg



Un equipo de investigadores españoles y portugueses ha realizado el análisis genético molecular del cromosoma Y (transmitido sólo por varones) de la población aborigen de las Islas Canarias para determinar su origen y su grado de pervivencia en la población actual. Los resultados apuntan a un origen norteafricano para estos linajes paternos que, a diferencia de los linajes maternos, han disminuido hasta ser prácticamente reemplazados en la actualidad por linajes europeos.
Investigadores de la Universidad de La Laguna (ULL), del Instituto de Patología e Inmunología Molecular de la Universidad de Porto (Portugal) y del Instituto de Medicina Legal de la Universidad de Santiago de Compostela (USC) han estudiado el cromosoma Y de restos dentales humanos de las Islas Canarias, y han determinado el origen y evolución de los linajes paternos desde la época prehispánica hasta la actualidad. Hasta ahora, sólo se había estudiado el ADN mitocondrial, que refleja únicamente la evolución de los linajes maternos.

“Mientras los linajes maternos aborígenes han sobrevivido con un ligero descenso, los paternos han disminuido progresivamente, siendo reemplazados por linajes europeos”, declara a SINC Rosa Fregel, autora principal del estudio publicado recientemente en BMC Evolutionary Biology, e investigadora del Departamento de Genética de la ULL. Los expertos también han analizado una muestra histórica de la iglesia de La Concepción (Tenerife) datada en los siglos XVII y XVIII. Con esos datos, han establecido el impacto de la colonización europea y del tráfico de esclavos de origen africano, y han determinado la evolución de los linajes paternos en los aborígenes canarios o guanches, desde la época prehispánica hasta la actualidad.

Aunque ahora la aportación europea es mayoritaria, los científicos afirman que las aportaciones norafricanas y subsaharianas fueron mayores en los siglos XVII y XVIII. La explicación de la diferencia entre los linajes de hombres y mujeres canarios surge a raíz de las diversas aportaciones de las poblaciones parentales, y sobre todo por la colonización europea.

Durante este periodo, las uniones entre hombres y mujeres se producían más entre hombres ibéricos y mujeres guanches, “debido a la mejor posición social de los primeros comparados con los varones aborígenes”, aclara Fregel. A esto se añade la mayor mortalidad sufrida por los aborígenes varones, que fueron desplazados y discriminados por los conquistadores. “No sólo en la Conquista de la Corona de Castilla en el siglo XV, sino tras ella”, asegura la científica.

En el caso de los linajes subsaharianos, ambos sexos fueron discriminados por igual, “y tanto los linajes maternos como los paternos han disminuido hasta la actualidad”, añade la investigadora.

Los rastros de la colonización europea

Un estudio previo del cromosoma Y en la población canaria actual demostró el impacto de la colonización europea sobre la población masculina canaria. “Al estimar la proporción de linajes europeos presentes en la actual población canaria, se encontró que representan más del 90%”, señala Fregel. Sin embargo, los estudios del ADN mitocondrial en la población actual demostró una notable pervivencia de linajes aborígenes, donde la aportación europea es de entre un 36 y un 62%.

La contribución ibérica y europea al patrimonio genético masculino de Canarias aumentó desde el 63% durante los siglos XVII y XVIII hasta el 83% en la actualidad. Paralelamente, los genes de aborígenes varones disminuyeron del 31% al 17%, y los de los subsaharianos, del 6% al 1%.

En cuanto a las mujeres, la aportación europea es más constante, ya que ha pasado del 48% al 55% y la aborigen del 40% al 42%. Sólo se muestra un descenso en la aportación genética de las subsaharianas del 12% al 3% en los últimos tres siglos. A pesar de estos avances, aún existen misterios por revelar, como saber si los primeros pobladores de las Islas Canarias llegaron por sus propios medios o fueron traídos a la fuerza, “ya que no hay indicios de que conocieran la navegación ni si vinieron en una o varias oleadas”, concluye Fregel.

[Ibericus]

Si Caballoloco todo esto es cierto. Lo que yo he leido es que los habitantes eran diferentes segun las islas. En Tenerife estarian los guanches describidos como rubios ya extinguidos y que no se sabe su origen, y en las otras islas los guanches de origen bereber que son los mayoritarios.

"Some Berber Guanches populations, particularly the now extinct aboriginal population of Tenerife, one of the Canary Islands, were said by 14th century Spanish explorers to exhibit blond hair and blue eyes.[24][25] Blondness was also reported among Indigenous peoples in South America known as Cloud People.[26][27]"

[Lábaru]

Sorry for the Spanish, need explain my point.

¿Pero donde hay un link con el nombre de los escribas españoles que testifiquen eso? los españoles siempre hemos sido famosos desde el siglo (por esa época) por nuestros escribas, por dejar constancia de lo que encontrábamos en los territorios conquistados ¿tienes algún link donde se diga algo? es que estas leyendas de gente rubia donde no tiene que estar es muy común en otras zonas hispanas como Perú donde muchos habitantes te hablan de que los españoles se encontraron en determinadas zonas a gente rubia y alta, cosa que es inconcebible y de la que no hay nada escrito por que no es cierto.

Sinceramente creo que los españoles hemos ido eliminando a los bereberes canarios por simple eliminación mediante la clasificación de la pareja, para nosotros los europeos son más atractivos y los bereberes también pensaban así por lo tanto se iban reproduciendo los ibéricos y extinguiendose los bereberes, creo que eso fue básico aparte de la condición social, la selección natural. De haber habido bereberes rubios y altos sin duda nos hubieramos cruzado con ellos por que nos hubieran parecido atractivos.

[Don]

Quizás hubieran viejos rubiales antes de la llegada de los bereberes de las costas cercanas.

Por cierto, yo prefiero a las morenas antes que las rubias, eso sí, de piel color luna llena. :)

[Erik]

Muchas gracias por la informacion sobre las islas canarienses. Estoy buscando el origin
de los hombres nordicos (pelo rubio y ojos azules). Tengo la opinion que los Guanchos
(parte materna) tienen un origin en el Hombre de Cro-Magnon llegado desde el Sur
de Francia. Los Guanchos tienes la misma forma de cranico como los hombres de
Cro-Magnon tuvieron. Como se ha conviertido los Guanchos en pelo rubio?
Segun me sus antepasados maternos lo tuvieron y lo llevaron hacia las islas canarienses.

Many thanks for your information about the Canarian Islands. I am looking for the
origin of the nordics, especially their fair hair and blue eyes. I think that the Guanchos
(from mother's side) descended from the Cro-Magnons and originated from southwest
France. How did the Guanchos obtain their fair hair and blue eyes?
According me their maternal ancestors brought it into the Canarian Islands.

[Ibericus]

Sorry for the Spanish, need explain my point.

¿Pero donde hay un link con el nombre de los escribas españoles que testifiquen eso? los españoles siempre hemos sido famosos desde el siglo (por esa época) por nuestros escribas, por dejar constancia de lo que encontrábamos en los territorios conquistados ¿tienes algún link donde se diga algo? es que estas leyendas de gente rubia donde no tiene que estar es muy común en otras zonas hispanas como Perú donde muchos habitantes te hablan de que los españoles se encontraron en determinadas zonas a gente rubia y alta, cosa que es inconcebible y de la que no hay nada escrito por que no es cierto.

Sinceramente creo que los españoles hemos ido eliminando a los bereberes canarios por simple eliminación mediante la clasificación de la pareja, para nosotros los europeos son más atractivos y los bereberes también pensaban así por lo tanto se iban reproduciendo los ibéricos y extinguiendose los bereberes, creo que eso fue básico aparte de la condición social, la selección natural. De haber habido bereberes rubios y altos sin duda nos hubieramos cruzado con ellos por que nos hubieran parecido atractivos.
Si. Alonso de Espinosa fue un fraile dominicano que escribió entre 1580 y 1592 y que estubo en Tenerifo un siglo antes de la conquista de la isla y describió a los guanches así :

"Es esta gente (los de la banda del Sur) de color algo tostado y moreno, agora sea por traer este color de generación, agora ser por ser la tierra algo cálida y tostarlos el sol por andar casi desnudos como andaban. Mas los de la banda del Norte eran blancos y las mujeres hermosas y rubias, de lindos cabellos. "

Galindo repite una afirmación parecid, y el poeta Viana se permite hacer varias descripciones sobre el aspecto personal de algunos nobles de Tenerife en tiempos de la conquista. Dácil, una de las hijas de Bencomo, el mencey de Taoro, era rubia, de sonrosada tez y ojos verdes :

"Largo cabello más que el sol dorado
Cejas sútiles, que del color mismo
Parecen arcos de oro, y corresponden
Crecidas las pestañas a sus visos,
Los ojos bellos son como esmeraldas
Cercadas de cristales transparentes,
Entreveradas de zelosos círculos,
Cual bello rosicler las dos mejillas
Y afilada nariz proporcionada "

Extraido de este libro :

http://books.google.es/books?id=z2Toh3-meRwC&pg=PA121&lpg=PA121&dq=Hoyos+Sainz+color+pelo+ojos&source=bl&ots=0bATsTp9gw&sig=0i2gw6YrUE_8deFCMgHWY-FfycA&hl=es&ei=e7B5S5O3GM6x4QbG1vSbCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CB4Q6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

El libro habla de que los habitantes eran diferentes segun las islas, aunque todos eran llamados guanches y que la mayoria eran de tez morena, menos los del norte de Tenerife que eran de tez blanca y algunos rubios

[Ugo Tognazzi]

The dark guy, has a broadish jaw, otherwise he seems of a typical Mediterranean stock type.


If of any interest, a girl i recently met from Andalusia told me that her friends from ''Extremadura'' have (in her own words) Cro Magnon features.

On the opposite, I travelled N Spain and i never really saw this type. mainly Gracile Meds and Atlanto Meds and a few short Dinaroids and Alpines and some gracile, leptosome blondish, pseudo Nord types.

[Lábaru]

Es interesante y quizá haya algo de verdad aunque me gustaría leer más sobre el tema ya que me suena a idealización, nada más que el como los describe, como si fueran bellas elfas de los bosques al estilo Tolkien me hace sospechar un mito y únicamente eso.

De hecho el que diga que había pelirrojos y muestre el libro la opinión de que los pelirrojos aparecen con la unión de morenos y rubios me parece una señal de lo mal llevado que está, hasta donde sé el pelirrojo es un gen especial presente sobre todo en las poblaciones de Irlanda y Escocia y minoritaria en otros pueblos europeos.

[Don]

The dark guy, has a broadish jaw, otherwise he seems of a typical Mediterranean stock type.


If of any interest, a girl i recently met from Andalusia told me that her friends from ''Extremadura'' have (in her own words) Cro Magnon features.

Maybe she was talking about this type...

but how could we explain these features?

[Lábaru]

About Guanches, maybe we can split this thread and continue to post evidence or texts about the subject.

http://www.mgar.net/docs/wendt.htm

http://www.laopinion.es/secciones/noticia.jsp?pRef=2942_8_111687__Cultura-Franco-guanches

And maybe we can translate the texts in English, for everyone understand it.

[Agrippa]

No, the Guanches had dark hair and eyes, with brown-white skin, were essentially pure Berbers, blue eyes and light hair did not appear until the arrival of the Spanish to the Islands.

That's not true, both among the indigenous Guanches and Berber people light pigmentation was present, locally fairly common! That's an ancient Cromagnoid substratum in North Africa.

As for the guys to classify, the light one is Nordid-Dalofaelid, the darker rather Mediterranid-Cromagnid, probably Berid influenced (?).

Here is a thread about the Guanches people:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5911

[Lábaru]

That's not true, both among the indigenous Guanches and Berber people light pigmentation was present, locally fairly common! That's an ancient Cromagnoid substratum in North Africa.
.

Agrippa honestly, that alone can tell someone who has not visited North Africa, and personally met hundreds of Berbers.

[antonio]

Checking them twice, it's not despisable they been brothers from the admixtured stock we all exposed before. Abstracting pigmentation, their factions are really similar.

[antonio]

Agrippa honestly, that alone can tell someone who has not visited North Africa, and personally met hundreds of Berbers.

But you should recognize mixcigenation with Negroid people should forcefully be an increasing factor on Northern Africa so your empirical evidence do not contradict Agrippa's statement.

Pd. As in Europe.:D

[Lábaru]

But you should recognize mixcigenation with Negroid people should forcefully be an increasing factor on Northern Africa so your empirical evidence do not contradict Agrippa's statement.

Pd. As in Europe.:D

no, I speak of Berbers with original features, I know many.

[Agrippa]

Agrippa honestly, that alone can tell someone who has not visited North Africa, and personally met hundreds of Berbers.

"Berbers" are a huge group, often with social and almost caste distinctions. Just look at the Tuareg, they range from purely Europid to purely Negrid.

So it should also depend on the exact area and people you visited.

However, I met Berbers which could pass as Central Europeans personally and saw a lot of images of light pigmented variants, which were decribed by most authors which knew the area.

Light pigmented Berbers are surely a minority, but an old and indigenous one, never forget that light pigmentation is always recessive, so whereever you find people with light hairs and eyes, you can be sure the recessive presence of genetic variants is MUCH HIGHER.

F.e. if one quarter of a people is blond, about 50 percent must be carriers of blond genetic variants.

If it falls below 50 percent in the genpool, the phenotypical representation, in a heterozygous population, will be much too weak, but here and there they will always pop up.

[Lábaru]

"Berbers" are a huge group, often with social and almost caste distinctions. Just look at the Tuareg, they range from purely Europid to purely Negrid.

So it should also depend on the exact area and people you visited.

However, I met Berbers which could pass as Central Europeans personally and saw a lot of images of light pigmented variants, which were decribed by most authors which knew the area.

Light pigmented Berbers are surely a minority, but an old and indigenous one, never forget that light pigmentation is always recessive, so whereever you find people with light hairs and eyes, you can be sure the recessive presence of genetic variants is MUCH HIGHER.

F.e. if one quarter of a people is blond, about 50 percent must be carriers of blond genetic variants.

If it falls below 50 percent in the genpool, the phenotypical representation, in a heterozygous population, will be much too weak, but here and there they will always pop up.

You wrong this time... the original Berbers had not blond hair and blue eyes, today only 4% presented blondism and the reason is the continuing contributions of Europeans since Roman times and the Greeks, Vandals, Hispanics, ect

[Ibericus]

You wrong this time... the original Berbers had not blond hair and blue eyes, today only 4% presented blondism and the reason is the continuing contributions of Europeans since Roman times and the Greeks, Vandals, Hispanics, ect
I agree. And I think it is even less than 4%. The guanches described as pale and blonde are not of berber origin : Their origin is unknown. But the Berbers of North Africa with traces of blondism, it's because of the 80.000 Vandals, the expelled Moriscos, Romans, etc.

[Agrippa]

You are right about light pigmentation being a minority, but not if its about is primary origin, the primary origin lies clearly in regional Cromagnoids.

Light pigmented Berbers were described even by Egyptians and they are present in regions which had - sometimes - the lowest contact rate with Europeans.

Also there are the light ones among the Guanches, which were essentially a branch of the North African Cromagno-Mediterranoid original spectrum.

[Lábaru]

No, listen, the Berbers have a very specific features easily recognizable for anyone who sees them every day as my personal case Agrippa, see blue eyes in one of them is as difficult as finding a four leaf clover.

A large percentage of them are not as mixed as we believe, their features are very pure, clearly identifiable as non-European despite his light skin pigmentation or relatively clear to be precise, her hair, her head, face, everything is specific of them and not a mixed race.

Considering that they must have input from more than 300,000 Andalusí people and over 80,000 European center vandals and without underestimating the continuing contributions of slaves European Slavs and other europeans contributions over the centuries, I can assure you that the original Berber population was undoubtedly dark eyes and black hair.

also I can assure you that the Berbers had nothing to do with the Mediterranean European populations, or primitive or modern, are a separate branch, her features are too alien, like I said even his hair, its texture is different and that is noticeable to the naked eye.

I do not know if it is possible that a people with light eye and hair lived in the past on the island of Tenerife, to be this way, they certainly were not Berbers..

These stories of small settlements of people blue-eyed blonde are very common among populations of dark people, we find these stories in the jungles of Peru, with continuing stories about encounters between the Spanish conquerors and blond and tall people "nordic look", we hear the stories of the Moroccans and Algerians about Andalusian expelled, described by these people as "people with blue eyes and blond hair" clearly idealized.

That is my point and the experience of seeing them every day.

[Agrippa]

That is my point and the experience of seeing them every day.

How many real Berbers from Lybia and Algeria did you see? I suspect most are Morroccan?

[Ibericus]

How many real Berbers from Lybia and Algeria did you see? I suspect most are Morroccan?
Most Algerians are pure berbers, and they have a normal moorish look. A typical and disntictive look. The well known Berberiscos.

[Lábaru]

How many real Berbers from Lybia and Algeria did you see? I suspect most are Morroccan?

I've certainly met more people from Moroccan anyway I also met so many people from Algeria, I live in Granada a few years Agrippa and my work allows me to deal almost daily with these people and know their nationalities.

Anyway why do you think that the Algerians are the purest Berbers? Berbers originally come from North-west Africa and have roots in the mountains of Atlas, ancient Egyptians and Libyans are only olds migrations Berber from the areas that today are Algeria and Morocco, Moroccans and Mauritanians are not the same thing, the moroccans are not so mixed with negroid as you think.

[Ibericus]

I've certainly met more people from Moroccan anyway I also met so many people from Algeria, I live in Granada a few years Agrippa and my work allows me to deal almost daily with these people and know their nationalities.

Anyway why do you think that the Algerians are the purest Berbers? Berbers originally come from North-west Africa and have roots in the mountains of Atlas, ancient Egyptians and Libyans are only olds migrations Berber from the areas that today are Algeria and Morocco, Moroccans and Mauritanians are not the same thing, the moroccans are not so mixed with negroid as you think.
Moroccans have on average 12 % of negroid admixture. That is significant. The Algerians don't have as much negroid.

[Agrippa]

Moroccans can be pretty pure too, but
- their basic type is less Cromagnoid than the one of the Kabyl Berbers f.e.
- and they still have significant Negroid admixture

Yes, there is this distinctive Berber look, but even if the more European-like and lighter Berberids are a minority today, they were already known to the ancient Egyptians and are still present in many areas, especially of Lybia and Algeria.

Note the Lybian Berber in comparison to the Negrid, the Near Easterner (Syrian) and the Egyptian:
http://www.toutankharton.com/IMG/gif/races2.gif

There are other such depictions, sometimes showing even rather Nordoid individuals.

Those were even then a minority I guess, but obviously the Egyptians noted it and they depicted it carefully, those ligher Mediterranid-Berberid variants.

Like these one:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6379&stc=1&d=1290185325

And compare with this thread:
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5911

I can just repeat that I saw personally some Berbers going in this direction, looking nothing like the usual stereotypes I know as well of course.

So don't tell me they don't exist, nor that they are just Europeans from later centuries, they are there since thousands of years, however they got there.

[Lábaru]

Ok, is hard to find good pictures of Algerians, but look this one.

http://i490.photobucket.com/albums/rr269/futbolochentoso2/selecciones/ARGELIA1982.jpg

That hair so common Berber, Curly in 90% of cases, where you find it in Europe?

[Agrippa]

Not all Algerians are Berbers, many are Arabs or mixed with Negroid blood, AND - this looks pretty old rather, the hair fashion I mean, you would wonder which people had curly hair in the 70's... ;)

[Vasconcelos]

Examples of berbers (from wiki)


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/10/MouloudAounit20071.JPG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/MoroccoTurban.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/MoroccanBerber.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/03/Rachid_kaci.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Berberboypd1.jpg

[Mordid]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Berberboypd1.jpg

This is what true Berber looks like. ;)

[Lábaru]

Not all Algerians are Berbers, many are Arabs or mixed with Negroid blood, AND - this looks pretty old rather, the hair fashion I mean, you would wonder which people had curly hair in the 70's... ;)

Yes, picture is of 1982 but is the only one with quality that I found now.

Now I must go to the street Agrippa, I assure you I'll cross some 20 Moroccans and Algerians and they all have short curly hair in addition to its bizarre features.

[Lábaru]

This is what true Berber looks like. ;)

That is a 1% of berebers.

[Ibericus]

Examples of berbers (from wiki)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/MoroccoTurban.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e8/MoroccanBerber.jpg

These two have obvious negroid admixture.

[Vasconcelos]

Yep, berbers are hardly a homogeneous kin.

[Agrippa]

Posting a Negroid Tuareg as "typical Berber" is like posting an Afro-American as typically "English American".

The Tuareg f.e. had almost a caste system about which I already wrote once and the upper class was and largely still is pred. Europid, rather Saharid - middle class often Saharid-Berberid, Southmediterranid-Berberid mixed with Negroid admixture and the (now former) slaves mostly Negrid.

Today especially "the middle class" is oftentimes mixed.

Typical more European-like (mostly Mediterranid-Berberid) Berber people:
http://i46.tinypic.com/30vyys2.jpg

http://c.1asphost.com/imazighen/kabyles/kabyles/berber_berbere_kabyle_14.jpg

http://realsafe.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/zinedine-zidane-271.jpg

http://geocities.ws/anthropogenesis/BERBER.jpg

http://i49.tinypic.com/4t0ww0.jpg

More typical Berbers in many regions are oftentimes rather dark Berberids with Mediterranid and slight Negroid influences, they sometimes look somewhat like Berids:
http://i49.tinypic.com/dzuiie.jpg

[Ibericus]

http://realsafe.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/zinedine-zidane-271.jpg

Have you seen the family of Zidane :

http://estaticos01.cache.el-mundo.net/albumes/2006/05/07/album_zidane/47f115df49b7076363b96474f8cbe4cb_extras_albumes_0. jpg

[Charles Martel]

Moroccans have on average 12 % of negroid admixture. That is significant. The Algerians don't have as much negroid.

Though it is not uniform. It depends on location and the history of that particular region.

[Curtis24]

Going by rates of skin color and hair/eye pigmentation charts, there are very few North Africans with light hair or light eyes.

[Agrippa]

Have you seen the family of Zidane :

http://estaticos01.cache.el-mundo.net/albumes/2006/05/07/album_zidane/47f115df49b7076363b96474f8cbe4cb_extras_albumes_0. jpg

Yes, but even if he is rather "a lucky recombination", that just proves my point, that this element is present among Berbers - a significant portion.

Light pigmentation is recessive and if the genetic variants for light pigmentation are below 50 percent, the phenotypical presence can be very misleading, genotypically still 25+ percent might have light pigmentation while there are very low numbers in the phenotypical variation.

[Lábaru]

This is the only real picture you put Agrippa, the other representing 1-5% of the Berber population.

http://i49.tinypic.com/dzuiie.jpg

[Agrippa]

This is the only real picture you put Agrippa, the other representing 1-5% of the Berber population.

http://i49.tinypic.com/dzuiie.jpg

I don't think it is that low, really not, but at least we came to terms about the fact that we finally discuss percentages, the element is present for sure and it is indigenous as well, its current proportion is a difficult matter, especially if you consider the great regional-ethnic divisions.

And I would assume that this European-like element was stronger, especially among some Lybian tribes, in ancient times than it is now.

[Lábaru]

I don't think it is that low, really not, but at least we came to terms about the fact that we finally discuss percentages, the element is present for sure and it is indigenous as well, its current proportion is a difficult matter, especially if you consider the great regional-ethnic divisions.

And I would assume that this European-like element was stronger, especially among some Lybian tribes, in ancient times than it is now.

I'm not sure it came from Europe, is there any genetic evidence? to my knowledge are clearly separated from the geographically closest European people, genetically speaking.

I'm just saying I've seen today, since I went to the street, about 30 North Africans, mostly from Morocco and not negroid looking for anything but brown curly hair, with facial features special/uniques of Berbers, so different the European.

If the genetics say they are different from any European and appearance of curly hair and distinctive features of face are not dominant in any place in Europe, Why will be them of European origin?

Don, siento si la conversación desvía el hilo, podemos decirle a Eldrith que haga un split si es así.

Real pictures of Berbers, with the way they look

The Three of the right are europeans tourist.

http://fotos.subefotos.com/15db4b5b07f6b089ca15938da67a440do.jpg

http://media1.imbresources.org/files/74/7439/7439-41399.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_qoHHdB8_Ilc/THhp6IhL69I/AAAAAAAABBw/o5KPUUIYWC0/s1600/8234_1242260097150_1248777533_709891_8038823_n.jpg

Please, click the links.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ff-mj3vAsfg/SM0c4r2c-TI/AAAAAAAAKkA/FI6ci_iPSOA/s1600-h/Bereberes-9.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ff-mj3vAsfg/SM0cnthVZoI/AAAAAAAAKj4/nkTSw_s-y3I/s1600-h/Bereberes-10.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ff-mj3vAsfg/SM0cHagvF-I/AAAAAAAAKjo/4Jj9B39x_j0/s1600-h/Bereberes-12.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ff-mj3vAsfg/SM0byMTeP7I/AAAAAAAAKjg/AdLoPIFgmVk/s1600-h/Bereberes-13.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ff-mj3vAsfg/SM0bkmSjiQI/AAAAAAAAKjY/wKSMMr4h-JM/s1600-h/Bereberes-14.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ff-mj3vAsfg/SM0ax_qk-cI/AAAAAAAAKjI/FwjK15ZBgY4/s1600-h/Bereberes-16.jpg

[Lábaru]

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Ff-mj3vAsfg/SM0ax_qk-cI/AAAAAAAAKjI/FwjK15ZBgY4/s1600-h/Bereberes-16.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ff-mj3vAsfg/SM0Zqx3WfNI/AAAAAAAAKiw/atha06ZGC-c/s1600-h/Bereberes-19.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ff-mj3vAsfg/SM0ZPqw3cCI/AAAAAAAAKio/gtNhICqd25E/s1600-h/Bereberes-20.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ff-mj3vAsfg/SM0Yv4PFn3I/AAAAAAAAKiY/YqJe5w28ofI/s1600-h/Bereberes-22.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ff-mj3vAsfg/SM0d44mG9pI/AAAAAAAAKkY/soiDwulzqG8/s1600-h/Bereberes-6.jpg

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ff-mj3vAsfg/SM0eeUa7R7I/AAAAAAAAKko/GDLqvy-kADY/s400/Bereberes-4.jpg

http://identidadandaluza.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/bereber2.jpg

http://abcblogs.abc.es/blogfiles/lafronteradebil/blog-bereberes-nokia.jpg

http://www.webislam.com/media/image/2008/04/gran_mujeres_marroquies.jpg

[Lábaru]

http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t262/TARSA_photos/100_3215.jpg



http://www.funci.org/es/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/Mujeres%20de%20Khenifra.jpg

The man on the right is european.
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:mvKyRYpkHBO_wM:http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj146/xixopark/Toubkal/CIMG2917.jpg&t=1

http://i271.photobucket.com/albums/jj146/xixopark/Toubkal/CIMG2813.jpg

http://fotos.subefotos.com/50f24d6bce77af6a6f62169aecee6cf0o.jpg

With negroid admixture.

http://www.sinlavenia.com/fotos/MORO001.jpg

5-7 % descendants of Andalusians with contributions from central Europe (vandals and Slaves)

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/1733/copiadecopiadecopiadenu.png

http://www.galeriade.com/pozuelo/data/media/64/bereberII-9.jpg

http://img227.imageshack.us/img227/1659/bereberzf1.jpg

http://www.comibam.org/recursosmisioneros/fotoseimagenes/johnfries/images/Marruecos-Marroqui-Musulman-Hombre-vendiendo-agua.jpg

[Don]

Don, siento si la conversación desvía el hilo, podemos decirle a Eldrith que haga un split si es así.

No es menester la disculpa. En absoluto me podría molestar.

[Agrippa]

I'm not sure it came from Europe, is there any genetic evidence? to my knowledge are clearly separated from the geographically closest European people, genetically speaking.

I'm just saying I've seen today, since I went to the street, about 30 North Africans, mostly from Morocco and not negroid looking for anything but brown curly hair, with facial features special/uniques of Berbers, so different the European.

If the genetics say they are different from any European and appearance of curly hair and distinctive features of face are not dominant in any place in Europe, Why will be them of European origin?


I always said that even the blond and blue eyed light Berberids among Berbers and Guanches must not be seen as being directly related to Europeans genetically, that's exactly what I said, that there is a North African variation which was originally more European like and is basically Suedmediterranid-Saharid-Berberid (light and dark Berberid variants, the dark are more often archaic or mixed).

That is a Saharid, more of the Tuareg elite type I mentioned:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ff-mj3vAsfg/SM0Zqx3WfNI/AAAAAAAAKiw/atha06ZGC-c/s1600-h/Bereberes-19.jpg

Not European like but a progressive Europid form in the deserts of North Africa in particular, a desert-warrior type.

They are still rather Mediterranoid, but with Orientalid tendencies and their own specialisation:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_3-j6DO-dk-k/TK6hCA8m_XI/AAAAAAAABgo/B7cvTfgqOSw/s1600/tuareg+couple.jpg

Basic Mediterranid type:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ff-mj3vAsfg/SM0Yv4PFn3I/AAAAAAAAKiY/YqJe5w28ofI/s1600-h/Bereberes-22.jpg

The left one is highly progressive and Mediterranid-Saharid-Arabid rather, the right is not that bad neither with the basic traits, but has clear deviations because of Negroid admixture:
http://www.webislam.com/media/image/2008/04/gran_mujeres_marroquies.jpg

The unmixed in this group are rather Mediterrano-Alpino-Cromagnoid, the mixed sticks out:
http://i162.photobucket.com/albums/t262/TARSA_photos/100_3215.jpg


5-7 % descendants of Andalusians with contributions from central Europe (vandals and Slaves)

In Morocco that is possible, but in Kabylie and with depictions from ancient Egpytians?

Such light pigmented individuals were common in North Africa since thousands of years and I suspect they were more common before the slave trade and Arabs, stemming to a certain degree from Mesolithic hunter and gathers, being present among the first Europids which entered North Africa!

Typical Southmediterranid - Berberid mix:
http://www.comibam.org/recursosmisioneros/fotoseimagenes/johnfries/images/Marruecos-Marroqui-Musulman-Hombre-vendiendo-agua.jpg

[Lábaru]

Then we are agree on almost everything.






In Morocco that is possible, but in Kabylie and with depictions from ancient Egpytians?

Such light pigmented individuals were common in North Africa since thousands of years and I suspect they were more common before the slave trade and Arabs, stemming to a certain degree from Mesolithic hunter and gathers, being present among the first Europids which entered North Africa!

In Kabylie of course is possible, look.

http://www.virtual.unal.edu.co/cursos/sedes/manizales/4020061/images/2/foto3a.jpg

Reino de los vándalos = kingdom of the Vandals (Take this opportunity to mention the value of my ancestors from Cantabria, there resisting all invaders.)

Vandals were germanic doubtless between 50% -80% with blue eyes.

Andalusians were a total of more than 300,000 people and among them were Celts, Iberians, Goths and many Eastern European Slavs, the latter came to create a kingdom inside Spain itself. They came from Aragon (north of Spain) , Valencia and Castile, the Kingdom of Granada (South) and the Moors had been cleared years ago.

The current Algerians idealized this andalusians like blue-eyed blonde people, I imagine that only 15-20% of them had these physical traits but were certainly lighter than the local population.

Algerian teacher explaining that the Spanish Moors were blond and blue eyes-----> http://www.ideal.es/granada/20090514/cultura/moriscos-llegaron-tunez-eran-20090514.html





So I know most moved to Morocco and Algeria, but no doubt many of them moved to the East, looking for better land or pilgrimage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_the_Moriscos

We must also take account of Agrippa the Greek colonies in North Africa.

http://escolar2.com.ar/histoAV/expgrec.gif

And the Roman legions, formed both by Central and Southern European.

I believe that clear features in some North African can be explained by these people.










Typical Southmediterranid - Berberid mix:
http://www.comibam.org/recursosmisioneros/fotoseimagenes/johnfries/images/Marruecos-Marroqui-Musulman-Hombre-vendiendo-agua.jpg

$ 100 to bet that this man has a percentage of andalusian blood becouse part of his face is recognized by me in Spain, not is common in North Africa but they exist.

[Alvarado]

As Agrippa said, light-pigmented north africans seem to be of an ancient indigenous stock:

http://x99.xanga.com/810f7a6567432260365955/b207389164.jpg

http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/edwards/pharaohs/83.gif




We must also take account of Agrippa the Greek colonies in North Africa.

http://escolar2.com.ar/histoAV/expgrec.gif


Paradoxically, the Libyan giant Antaios was depicted by Greeks as light-haired compared with Herakles:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e1/Herakles_Antaios_Louvre_G103.jpg

http://www.lessing-photo.com/p2/100302/10030218.jpg

[Lábaru]

http://x99.xanga.com/810f7a6567432260365955/b207389164.jpg

Well this is just a drawing and it is suspected that the upper class or nobility of ancient Egypt could be Caucasoid, but not the rest of the people of Egypt.

[Agrippa]

http://x99.xanga.com/810f7a6567432260365955/b207389164.jpg

Well this is just a drawing and it is suspected that the upper class or nobility of ancient Egypt could be Caucasoid, but not the rest of the people of Egypt.

The ancient Egyptians were predominantely Europid for sure and those are Lybians, no Egyptians - I mean the four males depicted from teh left.

The Egyptian is the one at the extreme left, a darkish Southmediterranid type, often with dark Berberid and slight Aethiopoid and/or real Negroid influences, especially in Upper Egypt.

Lower Egypt was essentially Europid though, that is very clear, but not as light nor strongly Europid as the Lybians or Syrians, which this depiction shows us.

[Ibericus]

The ancient Egyptians were predominantely Europid for sure and those are Lybians, no Egyptians - I mean the four males depicted from teh left.

The Egyptian is the one at the extreme left, a darkish Southmediterranid type, often with dark Berberid and slight Aethiopoid and/or real Negroid influences, especially in Upper Egypt.

Lower Egypt was essentially Europid though, that is very clear, but not as light nor strongly Europid as the Lybians or Syrians, which this depiction shows us.
But having light skin as depicted by ancient egpytians, is not a prove of being Europids. They could be like Zidanes, light skinned but the features are not Europid.

[Lábaru]

But having light skin as depicted by ancient egpytians, is not a prove of being Europids. They could be like Zidanes, light skinned but the features are not Europid.

I Agree. Ancient Egyptians were the Berbers of the North West Africa area, migrated and established two settlements on the banks of the Nile, of these two settlements was born later egypt.

[Agrippa]

But having light skin as depicted by ancient egpytians, is not a prove of being Europids. They could be like Zidanes, light skinned but the features are not Europid.

There are European Europids and extra-European Europids, those of North Africa and West-South Asia.

So being Europid doesn't the same as European - there are North Africans which are essentially, phenotypically at least, European Europids largely, but those are a minority, even many light pigmented ones look typically exotic and Berberid.


Ancient Egyptians were the Berbers of the North West Africa area, migrated and established two settlements on the banks of the Nile, of these two settlements was born later egypt.

Rather they came - like most North African Mediterranoids, from the Near East...

[Lábaru]

Rather they came - like most North African Mediterranoids, from the Near East...

Yes. true.

[Don]

A new Pic.

http://www.cuatro.com/recorte/20100924ctoultpro_39/FG663H/Ies/Engracia_Manuel.jpg