Who left more genetic impact: The Normans in Sicily or the Venetians in Crete?

[Lavrentis]

Regarding Crete, the island war ruled by the Venetians for 464 years, and there were intermarriages between local Greeks and Venetians, but it's not exactly known if intermarriages were very widespread. From what I have read regarding the Venetians in Crete, they were also assimilated into the Cretan population because some converted to Orthodoxy. Back to the original question though, who left more genetic impact: the Normans in Sicily or the Venetians in Crete?

[Kelmendasi]

Normans in Sicily I think

[Voskos]

apo pou eisai apo tin kriti?

[Scholarios]

Normans inSicily, but it's hard to say since Normans started out quite different from their subjects, while Venetians were relatively similar.

[Lavrentis]

Normans in Sicily I think

[Lavrentis]

apo pou eisai apo tin kriti?

Από Χανια.

[Kelmendasi]

Didn't have to be settlers. They did leave genetic influences there, for example there is an elevated number of I1 in Sicily

[Voskos]

ki ego apo xania eimai

[Lavrentis]

ki ego apo xania eimai

[Voskos]

mes stin poli meno alla i katagogi mou einai apo notio nomo xanion.

[Lavrentis]

mes stin poli meno alla i katagogi mou einai apo notio nomo xanion.

Και γω απο νοτια ειμαι

[Sikeliot]

Norman input in Sicily is restricted to a tiny part of the northern coast, and to Trapani province. People in the vast majority of the island have NO Norman input, or at least no more than Lebanese Muslims have.

Then again I don't think Venetian input in Crete is particularly strong either. But Cretans and Sicilians are genetically very close to one another.

I picked equal impact, because it is close to nothing in the vast majority of both populations.

[Voskos]

Και γω απο νοτια ειμαι

wraios.de sou zhtaw na peis xwrio gia eunohtous logous

[Sikeliot]

What is clear is Normans in Sicily and Venetians in Crete both left far less impact than did Slavs on the mainland Greeks.

[Voskos]

What is clear is Normans in Sicily and Venetians in Crete both left far less impact than did Slavs on the mainland Greeks.

actually my y-dna SNP matches are mostly italians but then again autosomally im fully cretan

[Sikeliot]

actually my y-dna SNP matches are mostly italians but then again autosomally im fully cretan

I don't know. But I do know that the vast majority of Sicilians likely have no Norman input at all. Only in Trapani would it really be present (which is probably why that region differs from the rest of the island). But in places like Messina, Agrigento, or even most of Palermo, almost none.

[Sikeliot]

I think Crete would have more Slavic input (either from direct migration or mainland influence) than Sicily has Norman, which is evident by haplogroups. Venetian is probably less than Slavic in Crete.

[Lavrentis]

What is clear is Normans in Sicily and Venetians in Crete both left far less impact than did Slavs on the mainland Greeks.

I think that whatever Slavic input is in Greece is a result of the Grekomans, who were pretty much Bulgarians with ethnic Greek consciousness. But on the other hand, Bulgarians are not that much Slavic genetically.

[Lavrentis]

I think Crete would have more Slavic input (either from direct migration or mainland influence) than Sicily has Norman, which is evident by haplogroups. Venetian is probably less than Slavic in Crete.

Slavic input in Crete? There were not even Slavic migrations in Crete, but I think the north coast of Crete was raided by Slavs 2 times.

[Voskos]

Slavic input in Crete? There were not even Slavic migrations in Crete, but I think the north coast of Crete was raided by Slavs 2 times.

o nikiforos fokas efere slavous meta thn anakatalhpsh tou nhsiou

[Sikeliot]

I think that whatever Slavic input is in Greece is a result of the Grekomans, who were pretty much Bulgarians with ethnic Greek consciousness. But on the other hand, Bulgarians are not that much Slavic genetically.

What I mean is Greece shifts genetically more to NE Europe, than Sicily does to NW Europe. Call it Slavic or something else but it is the case.

Sicilians are genetically very close to Cretans and other Aegean islanders, though with a minor North African input.

[Lavrentis]

o nikiforos fokas efere slavous meta thn anakatalhpsh tou nhsiou

Swsto, eixe ferei kai Armenious kai afto to vlepeis apo onomasies xwriwn opws Armenoi, Armeniakos ktl. H diafora einai pws oi Armenioi htan epoikoi enw oi Slavoi htan oi idioi stratiwtes pou eixe xrhsimopoihsei sthn ekstratia nomizw.

[Voskos]

anyway concerning op's post i know a shitton of cretans with venetian surnames. also 7% R1B U152 in crete probably means something but the overall impact doesnt exceed 10% imo.

[Sikeliot]

anyway concerning op's post i know a shitton of cretans with venetian surnames. also 7% R1B U152 in crete probably means something but the overall impact doesnt exceed 10% imo.

I think y-dna I1 also is around 7% in Sicily, again with most of that concentrated in Trapani and extreme far western north coastal Palermo.

[Sikeliot]

In terms of actual autosomal DNA, my guess is that Norman input in the Sicilians who do have it, is probably around 5-10%. The same is true of the North African input which seems to be of equal magnitude.

[Voskos]

I think y-dna I1 also is around 7% in Sicily, again with most of that concentrated in Trapani and extreme far western north coastal Palermo.

yeah i noticed the sicilians you post every once in a while have very low "north sea" component compared to greeks.

[Sikeliot]

yeah i noticed the sicilians you post every once in a while have very low "north sea" component compared to greeks.

I posted a Thessalian today who had both high Baltic AND North Sea/Atlantic so they ended up very far north.

Dodecad K12b is usually good I think. When a Sicilian scores around 15%+ North Euro, chances are it's due to Norman input, but I've yet to see one exceed 20%. Most Sicilians on that calculator score 10-13%, with the lowest I've seen at 6% and the highest at 18%.

[Voskos]

thessalians are very WHG-shifted indeed. but its not necessarily slavic

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

I posted a Thessalian today who had both high Baltic AND North Sea/Atlantic so they ended up very far north.

Dodecad K12b is usually good I think. When a Sicilian scores around 15%+ North Euro, chances are it's due to Norman input, but I've yet to see one exceed 20%. Most Sicilians on that calculator score 10-13%, with the lowest I've seen at 6% and the highest at 18%.

I score higher North Euro than avarage Sicilian. 20% North Euro on Dodecad k12b. Which comes from my Iberian ancestry.

[Voskos]

I score higher North Euro than avarage Sicilian. 20% North Euro on Dodecad k12b. Which comes from my Iberian ancestry.

looks like you're a viking aztec mix .

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

20% North Euro< correction. If I was pure Iberian, i'll maybe be 25% or + North Euro.

[Sikeliot]

thessalians are very WHG-shifted indeed. but its not necessarily slavic

That Thessalian is actually shifting northwest of Sicily, not northeast (i.e. they are heading toward UK and Ireland).

Anyway to answer a question asked by Lavrentis, I don't think mainland Greeks fit in Sicily or in Crete phenotypically, and it is not because of them having assimilated Pontic and Anatolian Greeks, it is because they look too northern.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

looks like you're a viking aztec mix .

I think a Visigoth/Celtiberian and Amerind mix

[wvwvw]

Invaders do not make a significant genetic impact on the places they invade. There's no indication the Venetians made any impact on Greek genetics.

[wvwvw]

anyway concerning op's post i know a shitton of cretans with venetian surnames. also 7% R1B U152 in crete probably means something but the overall impact doesnt exceed 10% imo.

In Western Greece and Crete many Greeks have Venetian sounding surnames due to their professions and the same is true for Asia Minor Greeks sound Turkish. These people didn't have Venetian or Turkish ancestry.

[wvwvw]

I only know about the Venetians in the Cyclades group of islands. There were exceptionally few of them - even their armies were foreign mercenaries hired to keep the peace. They despised Greeks. They viewed both Jews and Turks more favourably than Greeks and marriages between Greeks and very the few Venetians who actually travelled to the Cyclades were unheard of. When the Venetians were removed - there was consensus on islands such as Naxos that the Turks were far better to the Greeks than the Venetians rulers were. So the impact of Venetians in the Cyclades is negligible at best.

However Crete I have no clue about.

True, in many cases Venetians were worse than the Turks. And let's not forget the destruction of the Parthenon by a Venetian bomb, in 1687 by moron Morosini.

[Lavrentis]

I only know about the Venetians in the Cyclades group of islands. There were exceptionally few of them - even their armies were foreign mercenaries hired to keep the peace. They despised Greeks. They viewed both Jews and Turks more favourably than Greeks and marriages between Greeks and very the few Venetians who actually travelled to the Cyclades were unheard of. When the Venetians were removed - there was consensus on islands such as Naxos that the Turks were far better to the Greeks than the Venetians rulers were. So the impact of Venetians in the Cyclades is negligible at best.

However Crete I have no clue about.

I can recommend you a very good book about Greek history that pretty much proves the opposite of what you're saying.

Btw, are you Greek?

[Lavrentis]

I can recommend you a very good book about Greek history that pretty much proves the opposite of what you're saying. Greeks always sided with the Venetians in the Venetian-Ottoman Wars.

Btw, are you Greek?

[Lavrentis]

True, in many cases Venetians were worse than the Turks. And let's not forget the destruction of the Parthenon by a Venetian bomb, in 1687 by moron Morosini.

In no case were the Venetians worse than Turks.

And the Parthenon was never destroyed, it was damages while the Venetians were besieging Athens.

[Sikeliot]

Based on the new study about SE Europe, Norman input has to be negligible in Sicily. The blue "European" component is so low.

http://i64.tinypic.com/2nk1lj6.jpg

[brennus dux gallorum]

I think that Venetians left more admixture in pelloponese, a few parts of central Greece and cyclades than Crete, even though the vast majority of the people have no venetian ancestry

I will vote for Sicily, but in every case the admixture was insignificant

[catgeorge]

The impact is so small it is rather irrelevant. We are perhaps talking about 2-5% overall impact that is uncesarily magnified due to the fact there has been no significant settlement.

Even the Bavarian settlers in Athens in Paleo Iraklio bought to Greece in early 17th century would have little impact you can hardly tell they are Bavarian

[Sikeliot]

I am not seeing how overall, either island has much of either influence.

[Sikeliot]

The other major influx was as we all know in Byzantine times - where again the West coast of the Peloponnese was flooded with Greek speaking Sicilians and Greek speaking Southern Italians in order to repopulate the hole left by the mass removal of the slavs. We must remember Calabrians for example only stopped speaking Greek as a native language around the 1600s.

Greek was spoken in Sicily until the 1600s also, but mostly around Enna, Syracuse, and Ragusa. If you listen to the accents and phonology of the Sicilian language you can hear how it is similar to Greek.

[brennus dux gallorum]

The Venetians only controlled the Peloponnese for the best part of two decades and couldn't really alter the demographics too much at that time. The real Italian admixture in the area or as I would say Italo/Greco admixture came after the fall of Sparta (370s BC) when 10,000s of Messenians (thanks to Epaminondas) repopulated the Southern Peloponnese - Messenians who had returned to their homeland primarily from Sicily and North Africa after leaving 300 years before because of the Spartans and their policies. Apparently the Messenians had maintained a transitory community in exile, or diaspora, for some 300 years - even keeping their unique Greek dialect intact.

The other major influx was as we all know in Byzantine times - where again the West coast of the Peloponnese was flooded with Greek speaking Sicilians and Greek speaking Southern Italians in order to repopulate the hole left by the mass removal of the slavs. We must remember Calabrians for example only stopped speaking Greek as a native language around the 1600s.

Before that they ruled some big towns, like methoni, monemvasia etc for a bigger period, however, yes most of pelloponese was frankish, not venetian

[Sikeliot]

Do you have any youtube examples?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kMyZtuAXBtU&t=323s

[brennus dux gallorum]

Greek was spoken in Sicily until the 1600s also, but mostly around Enna, Syracuse, and Ragusa. If you listen to the accents and phonology of the Sicilian language you can hear how it is similar to Greek.

The accent of Greek is mostly associated with iberian accents

[Sikeliot]

The accent of Greek is mostly associated with iberian accents

Sicilian language might have Iberian influence too.

[Lavrentis]

Everything I have explained is from history books and actually living in the Cyclades. I recommend a book for you to read that will help you understand these islands far better.

Published in 1885 by a man who lived and travelled among these islands:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cyclades-Life-Among-Insular-Greeks/dp/0953992314

This book even documents funeral rituals the various Greek islands were conducting that were the last surviving vestiges of ancient Greece. Many would actually be celebrations - just as in ancient times.

The resentment against the Venetians however is massive and always has been. In the Cyclades it is common knowledge most preferred the Turks than the Venetians. The Turks had a hands off approach to the Cyclades (they would not even enter the islands but just send Jewish tax collectors to collect the tax) - the Venetians disinherited 100,000s of Greeks of their land in the Cyclades - turned the Greek population into serfs and classed Greeks below Turks and Jews in terms of cultural hierarchy. Again I can't speak for Crete because my years of studies have only been about the Cyclades of which I have personally visited about 20 islands and my family still have property there. I have also researched and written papers on the Peloponnese - where my grandfather originated from.

if you want to know Italians who the Greeks were very fond of - you need to look to historical heavyweights like Marc Anthony, Nero and Hadrian. The venetians were despised in the Cyclades and much of their legacy has been removed by Greeks as a result including 100s of churches they built being demolished.

Please read: Ιστορια του Ελληνικου Εθνους: Ο Ελληνισμος υπο ξενη κυριαρχια: (περιοδος 1669-1821)- Τουρκοκρατια-Λατινοκρατια. (History of the Greek nation: Hellenism under foreign occupation: 1669-1821, Turkish Occupation, Latin Occupation.)

You must read this very good book before saying that the Venetians were despised and that Turks were preffered than Venetians, when we have proof that the Greeks saw Venice as their last hope of not falling under the Ottomans. The Greeks always sided with the Venetians in the Venetian-Ottoman Wars.

What do the written paperers on the Peloponnese say?

Also, you say that Greeks demolished 100s of Venetian churches. Do you have a source on that? Because there are tons of Catholic churches on the Cyclades and tons of Catholics as well. Matter of fact, the number of Catholic and Orthodox churches in Tinos is equal.

[Tauromachos]

I think Crete would have more Slavic input (either from direct migration or mainland influence) than Sicily has Norman, which is evident by haplogroups. Venetian is probably less than Slavic in Crete.

I think there is not more Slavic input in Crete than Norman in Sicily.

There was never any historical mentioned presence of Slavs in the Island,whereas Norman in Sicily there was even though it can be true what you say that
Normans didn't left much genetic traces there.

[Sikeliot]

I think there is not more Slavic input in Crete than Norman in Sicily.

There was never any historical mentioned presence of Slavs in the Island,whereas Norman in Sicily there was even though it can be true what you say that
Normans didn't left much genetic traces there.

Normans did not leave much genetic input in Sicily. Any recent 'northern' input is more likely due to migration from the Italian mainland.

[Tauromachos]

Greek was spoken in Sicily until the 1600s also, but mostly around Enna, Syracuse, and Ragusa. If you listen to the accents and phonology of the Sicilian language you can hear how it is similar to Greek.

Ok,thats interesting

[brennus dux gallorum]

I think there is not more Slavic input in Crete than Norman in Sicily.

There was never any historical mentioned presence of Slavs in the Island,whereas Norman in Sicily there was even though it can be true what you say that
Normans didn't left much genetic traces there.

There are both toponyms and documents indicating Slavic immigration

The only part of Greece with zero recorded Slavic immigrants is the northeast Aegean

On contrary, I don't think that many Norman mercenaries had reasons to stay in Sicily

[Tauromachos]

There are both toponyms and documents indicating Slavic immigration

The only part of Greece with zero recorded Slavic immigrants is the northeast Aegean


So Rhodes and Cyprus have Slavs to..:cool:

[brennus dux gallorum]

So Rhodes and Cyprus have Slavs to..:cool:

Since the end of the antiquity, cyprus was not affected by the events in Greece proper, until some 15-19th century immigrations

For example aya Napa, was invented by some immigrants from thessaloniki, even though native Cypriots later obviously joined

I have no idea about Rhodes, for that reason I talked only about Crete and other Aegean islands, where some Slavic presence is recorded (yet weak) :)

[Inquizzzitor]

True, in many cases Venetians were worse than the Turks. And let's not forget the destruction of the Parthenon by a Venetian bomb, in 1687 by moron Morosini.

You jerk, that's because the evil Turks placed all their munitions stockpile INSIDE the Parthenon. The Venetians had no way of knowing that the whole structure would go ka-boom. The Turks were reckless and negligent and didn't give a fuck what happened to the Parthenon or any of the other buildings on the Acropolis. Please do not defend the Turks, after what they've done to Greeks, Armenians, Cypriots and everyone else who's unfortunate enough to share a border with them.

[Inquizzzitor]

Greek was spoken in Sicily until the 1600s also, but mostly around Enna, Syracuse, and Ragusa. If you listen to the accents and phonology of the Sicilian language you can hear how it is similar to Greek.

Actually, Greek was more recently spoken in Messina and in Messina Province. For example, neighborhoods in Messina proper still spoke Greek till quite recently (just like across the straight in Reggio di Calabria). Orthodox monasteries were functioning till the 1600/1700s in places like Monforte San Giorgio and Greek was spoken in the hilltowns around Messina until the decades following the Catholic Counter-Reformation, when the Church really stepped up its efforts to standardize religious practice and to make Byzantine parishes conform to Roman liturgics and customs.

It is also notable that Messina received the second highest number of Greeks after Venice, following the fall of Constantinople.

[Voskos]

The Venetians weren't saints either but the Turks, and more specifically the Oghuz settlers/soldiers, are mentioned as the ones with the most animalistic behaviour in Cretan history documents.

[Tauromachos]

There are both toponyms and documents indicating Slavic immigration

The only part of Greece with zero recorded Slavic immigrants is the northeast Aegean

On contrary, I don't think that many Norman mercenaries had reasons to stay in Sicily

And why should Slavs have reasons to stay in Crete?

[Lavrentis]

You jerk, that's because the evil Turks placed all their munitions stockpile INSIDE the Parthenon. The Venetians had no way of knowing that the whole structure would go ka-boom. The Turks were reckless and negligent and didn't give a fuck what happened to the Parthenon or any of the other buildings on the Acropolis. Please do not defend the Turks, after what they've done to Greeks, Armenians, Cypriots and everyone else who's unfortunate enough to share a border with them.

I agree with you, this idiot doesn't know what he's talking about.

You are very correct about what you said, that the Turks placed their munition inside the Parthenon. The Venetians didn't know about that.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tauromachos]

The Venetians weren't saints either but the Turks, and more specifically the Oghuz settlers/soldiers, are mentioned as the ones with the most animalistic behaviour in Cretan history documents.

Only competable with the atrocities commited by Germans in WW2.

[Lavrentis]

True, in many cases Venetians were worse than the Turks. And let's not forget the destruction of the Parthenon by a Venetian bomb, in 1687 by moron Morosini.

How were the Venetians worse than Turks you idiot?

In every single Ottoman-Venetian War, the Greeks took the Venetian side. And during Venetian rule in Crete, rose many famous Greek poets.

Don't talk about things you know nothing about.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Tauromachos]

Actually, Greek was more recently spoken in Messina and in Messina Province. For example, neighborhoods in Messina proper still spoke Greek till quite recently (just like across the straight in Reggio di Calabria). Orthodox monasteries were functioning till the 1600/1700s in places like Monforte San Giorgio and Greek was spoken in the hilltowns around Messina until the decades following the Catholic Counter-Reformation, when the Church really stepped up its efforts to standardize religious practice and to make Byzantine parishes conform to Roman liturgics and customs.

It is also notable that Messina received the second highest number of Greeks after Venice, following the fall of Constantinople.

Interesting

And what do you think about the Levantiness of Sicilians?
Do they realy have so much Levantine input as is claimed here?

[MinervaItalica]

^ Probably not. Not that much as people here claim. Some may have Levantine input but only a minority.

OT: The Venetian rule of Crete lasted more than the Norman in Sicily though.

[brennus dux gallorum]

And why should Slavs have reasons to stay in Crete?

I don't know, better ask themselves :p

Anyway, the thread is about venetians and Normans :)

[Tauromachos]

I don't know, better ask themselves :p


And whom to ask in Crete?

So far i didn't met any Cretan who spoke Slavic or said he has Slav ancestors...



Anyway, the thread is about venetians and Normans http://www.theapricity.com/forum/images/smilies/smile.png

Yeah and most people voted for Normans in Sicily :cool:

[Sikeliot]

Cretans can plot north of Sicily but that's likely due to Doric Greek input.

[Sikeliot]

Are you trying to say Sicilians are a more northern population than Greece? Norman input or not you would be wrong.

[Inquizzzitor]

Interesting

And what do you think about the Levantiness of Sicilians?
Do they realy have so much Levantine input as is claimed here?

I don't keep up too much with what's claimed here. Sicily has more Levantine input that the Greek mainland, about the same as Crete and the Aegean islands, in some cases more, but not as much as Cypriots have.

[Tauromachos]

Cretans can plot north of Sicily but that's likely due to Doric Greek input.

They should plot about the same with South East Sicilians..
Don't they?

[Inquizzzitor]

If we were to make a map that reflected, geographically, the genetic drift of populations, Sicily would be situated somewhere between Rhodes and Crete - southeast of the Greek mainland.

[Tauromachos]

Are you trying to say Sicilians are a more northern population than Greece? Norman input or not you would be wrong.

Quote me,where i tried this...
Hell no!


I neither find Greeks nor Sicilians realy northern,to be honest.

[Tauromachos]

Cretans can plot north of Sicily but that's likely due to Doric Greek input.

I guess they can plot south of Sicily as well..

[Sikeliot]

I guess they can plot south of Sicily as well..

Crete and Sicily are genetically very close, and have a similar range. Within both groups some plot further north of course.

However many Sicilians are closer to Dodecanese, I think. Karpathos seems close in particular, and Kalymnos.

[Tauromachos]

Crete and Sicily are genetically very close, and have a similar range. Within both groups some plot further north of course.

:thumb001:



However many Sicilians are closer to Dodecanese, I think. Karpathos seems close in particular, and Kalymnos.

Perhabs

[brennus dux gallorum]

Back to the issue. I don't know if the surname "venetakis" is related to Venetians, but it's common in western Crete, Chania and Rethymno in particular. Completely abscent in central and Eastern crete

As for Normans, Sikeliot can inform us if there are surames related to them in Sicily

And whom to ask in Crete?

So far i didn't met any Cretan who spoke Slavic or said he has Slav ancestors...


have you met any greek from any other part of the country that either speaks slavic or to say that he has slavic ancestors

[Sikeliot]

As for Normans, Sikeliot can inform us if there are surames related to them in Sicily


Not many surnames, but many first names are derived from them.

Parisi is the only one I can think of immediately.

[Tauromachos]

Back to the issue. I don't know if the surname "venetakis" is related to Venetians, but it's common in western Crete, Chania and Rethymno in particular. Completely abscent in central and Eastern crete

As for Normans, Sikeliot can inform us if there are surames related to them in Sicily

Alot of cretan surnames are common allover Crete.

And there have also been alot of immigration across the Island.
From West to Central and East and probably vice versa.
There is no strict division

Do you realy believe if there where Venetians ,they where only in Chania and not in Rethymnon??

There are people in the Cyclade Islands with purily Italian surnames.
The Island Syros has even a Roman Catholic minority.
Venetians where also active there,not only in Crete...

[brennus dux gallorum]

Alot of cretan surnames are common allover Crete.

And there have also been alot of immigration across the Island.
From West to Central and East and probably vice versa.

Do you realy believe if there where Venetians ,they where only in Chania and not in Rethymnon??

There are people in the Cyclade Islands with purily Italian surnames.
The Island Syros has even a Roman Catholic minority.
Venetians where also active there,not only in Crete...

italian and "Frankish" (medieval French) surnames (direct or implicit) is something you can find in the 2/3 of the country with such presence during the late medieval/early rennaisance ages, which is Ionian islands, then Aegean islands (including Crete), Peloponnese and central Greece to a lower degree.

but i was talking about a particular surname, common only in Crete, or in a particular part of Crete,according to its results.

BTW the vast majority of the people with such surnames are not catholic.

[JMack]

Normans did not leave much genetic input in Sicily. Any recent 'northern' input is more likely due to migration from the Italian mainland.

I agree. I think the Normans didn't impacted Sicily that much. Most of them stablished themselves as nobles and high castes there, difficult to change the genetic pool of the general population this way.

The impact of the Normans is probably more present in Sicilian/Southern Italian aristocrats, but even so it's difficult to attest since European nobility is heavily admixed with any single shit that has ever stepped foot in Europe.

[JMack]

About Venetians in Crete, probably they didn't influenced that much. But they were not that different to begin with.

[Babak]

Nooooorrrrmmaaaaannnsssssss

[Tauromachos]

I agree. I think the Normans didn't impacted Sicily that much. Most of them stablished themselves as nobles and high castes there, difficult to change the genetic pool of the general population this way.

The impact of the Normans is probably more present in Sicilian/Southern Italian aristocrats, but even so it's difficult to attest since European nobility is heavily admixed with any single shit that has ever stepped foot in Europe.

How present is it in Mafia clans.?

[Sikeliot]

How present is it in Mafia clans.?

Probably almost none, considering the Mafia clans are the poorest part of the population really, the underclass.

[JMack]

How present is it in Mafia clans.?

Aristocrats? I think there's no real aristocrats* in the Mafia.

* People who can trace their origins to the Middle Ages and have nobility titles dating from that time.

[Sikeliot]

I agree. I think the Normans didn't impacted Sicily that much. Most of them stablished themselves as nobles and high castes there, difficult to change the genetic pool of the general population this way.

If anything any northern shifting element in Sicily is more likely to be mainland Italian in the case of western Sicily, and mainland Greek in the case of the southeast.

[Tauromachos]

Probably almost none, considering the Mafia clans are the poorest part of the population really, the underclass.

Realy?
i wondered if there was a connection between Italian/Sicilian Aristocracy and Mafia families.

[JMack]

If anything any northern shifting element in Sicily is more likely to be mainland Italian in the case of western Sicily, and mainland Greek in the case of the southeast.

Yes. That's more likely than Normans.

Most conquerors of Middle Ages didn't altered significantly the population of any European regions, since they were small minorities among an already stablished population.

The same applies to Normans in England, Moors in Iberia, Arabs in Crete and Sicily and so on.

[Tauromachos]

If anything any northern shifting element in Sicily is more likely to be mainland Italian in the case of western Sicily, and mainland Greek in the case of the southeast.



Yes. That's more likely than Normans.

Most conquerors of Middle Ages didn't altered significantly the population of any European regions, since they were small minorities among an already stablished population.

The same applies to Normans in England, Moors in Iberia, Arabs in Crete and Sicily and so on.

Probably,but Mainland Italians and Mainland Greeks were not the same Northern shifted as Normans..

[Sikeliot]

Yes. That's more likely than Normans.

Most conquerors of Middle Ages didn't altered significantly the population of any European regions, since they were small minorities among an already stablished population.

The same applies to Normans in England, Moors in Iberia, Arabs in Crete and Sicily and so on.


The exotic influences in Sicily are on both paternal and maternal sides, but the mtdna, I believe, has more Levantine input than the paternal. My guess is Sicilians received their Levantine influence before they received their Italic or Greek ones.

I am unsure about the mtdna of Crete but I assume it'd be the same.

[Sikeliot]

Probably,but Mainland Italians and Mainland Greeks were not the same Northern shifted as Normans..

No, but enough so that they have shifted some Sicilians north of the average (and similarly some shift south of the average, too, likely these are the ones who actually do have the extra MENA. I found one from Cinisi and Partinico in Palermo who shifts toward North Africa).

[brennus dux gallorum]

BTW any result from veneto may help

[JMack]

The exotic influences in Sicily are on both paternal and maternal sides, but the mtdna, I believe, has more Levantine input than the paternal. My guess is Sicilians received their Levantine influence before they received their Italic or Greek ones.

I am unsure about the mtdna of Crete but I assume it'd be the same.

Yes. Probably it's very ancient admixture.

What's the highest Levantine and the highest North Euro have you ever seen Siclians to score?

[JMack]

BTW any result from veneto may help

http://i58.tinypic.com/2w3ubmv.jpg


38% Northern European. Quite high for a Southern European population. A substantial portion of Venetians can be easily distinguished phenotypically even from Mainland Greeks.

[brennus dux gallorum]

http://i58.tinypic.com/2w3ubmv.jpg


38% Northern European. Quite high for a Southern European population. A substantial portion of Venetians can be easily distinguished phenotypically even from Mainland Greeks.

not that crap 23andme and its false components. Any gedmatch, FTDNA or something else

Anyway, even in that case, yes 38% is already very high

[Alessio]

Probably almost none, considering the Mafia clans are the poorest part of the population really, the underclass.

Nowadays it's a little different, as some clans are in excistence for quite some time and have worked themselves to the top. Surely the lower ranks are mainly derrived from the underclass and regurarly work themselves up. Also there's a difference between the city poor sottoproletariato (in Naples called Lazzaroni) which grew out to be the city mob and the poor contadini from the farmlands.

[Sikeliot]

Yes. Probably it's very ancient admixture.

What's the highest Levantine and the highest North Euro have you ever seen Siclians to score?

On which calculators?

I know roughly 1/4 of the Sicilians I have on GEDmatch score closer to Cypriots on many calculator oracles than to proper Greeks. I assume these are the ones with elevated Levantine input. As for northern, I don't know but some of the south easterners shift toward Russia.

[JMack]

On which calculators?

I know roughly 1/4 of the Sicilians I have on GEDmatch score closer to Cypriots on many calculator oracles than to proper Greeks. I assume these are the ones with elevated Levantine input. As for northern, I don't know but some of the south easterners shift toward Russia.

I was seeing some Sicilian results you posted from Southeast Sicily and you interpreted them as shifting to Eastern Europe and Greece, but many were also shifting West, to North/Central Italy, France and Spain.

These ones: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?218790-Southeast-Sicily-GEDmatch-result-really-NOT-like-the-rest-of-the-island

Examples:

1 Greek 2.83
2 Sicilian 3.23
3 Albanian 4.25
4 Italian_South 4.66
5 Jew_Ashkenazi 5.17
6 Bulgarian 7.85
7 Jew_Moroccan 8.96
8 Romanian 9.74
9 Jew_Libyan 10.7
10 Armenia_ChL 11.02
11 Jew_Tunisian 11.4
12 Croatian 13.5
13 Spanish 14.31
14 Cypriot 14.51
15 Turkish 14.77
16 Hungarian 16.53
17 French 16.65
18 Kumyk 17.29
19 Adygei 17.42
20 Lebanese 17.51


1 Greek 4.61
2 Sicilian 5.66
3 Albanian 6.68
4 Maltese 7.28
5 Tuscan 7.55
6 Bulgarian 10.87
7 Spanish 16.63
8 Turkish 17.03
9 Cypriot 19.01
10 Croatian 19.53
11 Kumyk 20.57
12 French 20.71
13 Adygei 21.09
14 Hungarian 22.51
15 Chechen 22.65
16 French_South 22.7
17 Lebanese 23.28
18 Armenian 24.43
19 Druze 24.51
20 Syrian 24.59

[Sikeliot]

I was seeing some Sicilian results you posted from Southeast Sicily and you interpreted them as shifting to Eastern Europe and Greece, but many were also shifting West, to France and Spain.

They do all shift toward Greece, at least.. closer to Greece than to other Sicilians even.

[JMack]

They do all shift toward Greece, at least.. closer to Greece than to other Sicilians even.

Maybe they have more direct ancestry from both mainland Greece and Central Italy (Romans).

[Sikeliot]

Maybe they have more direct ancestry from both mainland Greece and Central Italy (Romans).

That is my guess.

[JMack]

That is my guess.

I believe most of the ''MENA'' shift in Sicily and Southern Italy is very ancient, the proof is that it's only present in isolated regions. That's the reason they appear close to some Levantine groups. It doesn't mean they have ties with modern Levantines, it means they evolved from similar populations and got different admixtures and adaptations through time.

I don't think Southern Italians look Ashkenazi as a whole, but they cluster very close by accident. Honestly, most Ashkenazis are way more lighter than Southern Italians, but they have different/armenized features.

[Peugeot 308]

Sicilians/Calabrians and Cretans/Aegean Greeks have similar levels of Slavic admixture -7% vs 15% for mainland Greeks-, but beside that there is not much in common between them.

As for Sarno et al 2017.

http://i.imgur.com/1Yi89bur.png

They had only few samples from Peloponnese though. Other papers like Paschou et al. and Stamatoyannopoulos et al. with a much wider ranges of samples found a closer similarity between Sicilians and Greeks from Southern Peloponnese.

[Tauromachos]

Sicilians/Calabrians and Cretans/Aegean Greeks have similar levels of Slavic admixture -7% vs 15% for mainland Greeks-, but beside that there is not much in common between them.

As for Sarno et al 2017.

http://i.imgur.com/1Yi89bur.png

They had only few samples from Peloponnese though. Other papers like Paschou et al. and Stamatoyannopoulos et al. with a much wider ranges of samples found a closer similarity between Sicilians and Greeks from Southern Peloponnese.

Yes,and there are also regions in the Mainland of Greece that have 7% Slavic or less...

[Sikeliot]

They had only few samples from Peloponnese though. Other papers like Paschou et al. and Stamatoyannopoulos et al. with a much wider ranges of samples found a closer similarity between Sicilians and Greeks from Southern Peloponnese.

Paschou et al had a very small Sicilian sample specifically from SE Sicily, which is the region which is most northward shifting on the island (as indicated in other threads of mine with GEDmatch results). Sarno et al had the largest Sicilian sample size and found them to be closer to island Greeks.

Yet, the sample in that study still did overlap partially with Crete, but not as much as people from Messina or Palermo would, which are southern-shifting parts of the island.

[Sikeliot]

They had only few samples from Peloponnese though. Other papers like Paschou et al. and Stamatoyannopoulos et al. with a much wider ranges of samples found a closer similarity between Sicilians and Greeks from Southern Peloponnese.

Paschou et al had a very small Sicilian sample specifically from SE Sicily, which is the region which is most northward shifting on the island (as indicated in other threads of mine with GEDmatch results). Sarno et al had the largest Sicilian sample size and found them to be closer to island Greeks.

[Sikeliot]

They had only few samples from Peloponnese though. Other papers like Paschou et al. and Stamatoyannopoulos et al. with a much wider ranges of samples found a closer similarity between Sicilians and Greeks from Southern Peloponnese.


See my rebuttal here of the argument that Sicilians overall plot similarly to Peloponnesians.. they do not:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?217724-Dispelling-the-myth-that-Sicilians-overall-quot-cluster-with-quot-Peloponnesian-Greeks

[Dominicanese]

i gotta masturbate.

[Peugeot 308]

Paschou et al had a very small Sicilian sample specifically from SE Sicily, which is the region which is most northward shifting on the island (as indicated in other threads of mine with GEDmatch results). Sarno et al had the largest Sicilian sample size and found them to be closer to island Greeks.

Differences between regions of Sicily are small. Otherwise mainland Pelopponnese Greeks have much greater internal genetic differences and various degrees of slavic admixture (0%-14%). Some of them may be closer to Sicilians than others, but that's irrelevant. Sicilians/Calabrians are clearly genetically separate from any modern Greek populations, but they form a genetic continuum with them.

[Sikeliot]

Differences between regions of Sicily are small.

False. This is what people claim who take the most northward shifting samples and use them to apply to the whole island.


Otherwise mainland Pelopponnese Greeks have much greater internal genetic differences and various degrees of slavic ancestries (0%-14%). Some of them may be closer to Sicilians than others, but that's irrelevant. Sicilians/Calabrians are clearly genetically separate from any modern Greek populations, but they form a genetic continuum with them.

They are closest to island Greeks. A SE Sicilian sample from Syracuse, or the border of Catania/Syracuse is not representative of the entire island.

It's not just the Slavic input. Southern Italians have more Levantine input than mainland Greeks.

[Inquizzzitor]

My guess is Sicilians received their Levantine influence before they received their Italic or Greek ones..

I agree with this, aside from minor input via North Africans/Arabs, which themselves may have had Levantine recent ancestors thanks to the way Islam spread across the MENA region.

[Inquizzzitor]

False. This is what people claim who take the most northward shifting samples and use them to apply to the whole island.



They are closest to island Greeks. A SE Sicilian sample from Syracuse, or the border of Catania/Syracuse is not representative of the entire island.

It's not just the Slavic input. Southern Italians have more Levantine input than mainland Greeks.

What's true is that while the modern Sicilian genome can vary quite a bit, the modern Greek genome, if one includes mainland Greece through to Cyprus and the Dodecanese, can vary rather enormously.

[Lavrentis]

What's true is that while the modern Sicilian genome can vary quite a bit, the modern Greek genome, if one includes mainland Greece through to Cyprus and the Dodecanese, can vary rather enormously.

Cypriots are genetically Levantine so of course the genome will vary if you include them.

A Cretan and a Peloponnesian are not different at all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Böri]

Normans in Sicily. You see higher Nordic (Norman effect) among Sicilians than Venetian (Germanic Lombard?) effect among Saharid-leaning Cretans. Sicilians are less Levant-shifted than Cretins.

[Inquizzzitor]

It's also interesting to note that the geographic south/southeast Sicily is among the more northern shifted areas of the island (along with Trapani in the west, of course) whereas the northern area of the island: Messina/east of Palermo contains some of the most eastern/southern shifted of Sicilian samples. Messinese I believe, based on results here and elsewhere I've seen, are closer to Calabrians than to many other Sicilians.

[JMack]

Normans in Sicily. You see higher Nordic (Norman effect) among Sicilians than Venetian (Germanic Lombard?) effect among Saharid-leaning Cretans. Cretans are also more Levant-shifted than Cretins.

Venetians didn't influenced Crete at all, and most of them don't have Nordic phenotypes anyway. Venetians are mostly Dinarics, Alpines, some SubNordids, Norids and a minority of Nordids and Dinaricized Mediterraneans/Meds.

Normans (the originals) were probably a mix between Keltic-Nordid, Alpine and some minor presence of Trønder and North Atlantid/Atlantid.

With the exception of Atlantid and Alpine, none of the Norman types can be found in Sicily. Sicilians are mostly Dinaro-Med and Alpine-Med, with a minority of Taurids, Atlantids, Armenoids and some Nordic influenced phenotypes like Norid (probably a Northern Italian influence) and, more rarely, Nordid.

In reality Normans and Venetians didn't influenced Sicily and Crete at all, but Normans were certainly more different to native Sicilians than Venetians were to Cretans. Even if most Venetians would not pass as Cretans, a substantial minority with more Med or Alpine phenotypes would pass.

[Sikeliot]

Venetians didn't influenced Crete at all, and most of them don't have Nordic phenotypes anyway. Venetians are mostly Dinarics, Alpines, some SubNordids, Norids and a minority of Nordids and Dinaricized Mediterraneans/Meds.

Normans (the originals) were probably a mix between Keltic-Nordid, Alpine and some minor presence of Trønder and North Atlantid/Atlantid.

With the exception of Atlantid and Alpine, none of the Norman types can be found in Sicily. Sicilians are mostly Dinaro-Med and Alpine-Med, with a minority of Taurids, Atlantids, Armenoids and some Nordic influenced phenotypes like Norid (probably a Northern Italian influence) and, more rarely, Nordid.

In reality Normans and Venetians didn't influenced Sicily and Crete at all, but Normans were certainly more different to native Sicilians than Venetians were to Cretans. Even if most Venetians would not pass as Cretans, a substantial minority with more Med or Alpine phenotypes would pass.


You wasted your time explaining to a Turk. Turkish users are too biased when it comes to Greeks to ever respond to reason. It's like broken records.

[Sikeliot]

What's true is that while the modern Sicilian genome can vary quite a bit, the modern Greek genome, if one includes mainland Greece through to Cyprus and the Dodecanese, can vary rather enormously.

Sicilians range from being like far south Peloponnesians in Syracuse to being like Dodecanese or even Moroccan Jews in other places on the island but they lack the variation of most of mainland Greece. No one in Sicily shifts that far north.

[gültekin]

The Arabs in Crete, in my opinion.

Emirate of Crete (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emirate_of_Crete)



It is actually entertaining to watch these Cretans and Sicilians praise their northerner invaders and argue who have more foreign ancestry LOL.

Fucking PATHETIC

[Voskos]

Enjoy being a 45 year old middle aged failiure trolling people 20 years younger than you. I feel sorry for you, Gultekin.

[gültekin]

Enjoy being a 45 year old middle aged failiure trolling people 20 years younger than you. I feel sorry for you, Gultekin.

I'm 33 years old and I have a good life :cool:

You should feel sorry for someone who spends his life excommunicating his own "swarthy" people and creating pathetic threads like this one.

[JMack]

It is actually entertaining to watch these Cretans and Sicilians praise their northerner invaders and argue who have more foreign ancestry LOL.


Why they should praise Arabs/Levantines instead? That's what you're saying. They are equally invaders, and worst, they are totally unrelated culturally to Cretans and Sicilians. It's not the same thing with Normans and Venetians. To say Siclians are more related to Arabs than to Venetians is a sign of big stupidity. And as I explained for you in another thread, Venetians aren't nordic looking on average. For sure you can find more people with nordic phenotypes among Venetians than among Cretans, but as a whole they don't differ THAT MUCH.

Arabs are more related culturally to Turks than they are to Cretans. In real life no one perceive Cretans as MENAs despite what genetics says and Turks are seen as MENAs by almost everyone in western countries. Genetically, Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews are even more Levantine shifted than Cretans and they don't look ''MENA'' on average (Sephardics look even less MENA than Ashkenazis imo) .

[MinervaItalica]

The only ancient peoples who are truly related to Sicilians are the Italic peoples who lived in Sicily, ancient Greek immigrants (who were not invaders but were fleeing from Greece) during Magna Graecia and Romans. Others may have had some impact but still not that big (Normans, Arabs, Aragonese etc...)

And Sicilians are related to other Italians before anything else.

[gültekin]

Why they should praise Arabs/Levantines instead? That's what you're saying.

Where the hell did I say they should praise Arabs? They were both invaders, but Lavrentis goes apeshit when someone mentions possible Arab ancestry in Crete, that's the point.





Arabs are more related culturally to Turks than they are to Cretans.
What do you know about Turkish folk culture apart from the fact that we are Muslims LOL? Syrian refugees (the closest Arabic-speaking people geographically) are still alienated despite all those in Turkey because they are culturally exteremely different.





In real life no one perceive Cretans as MENAs despite what genetics says and Turks are seen as MENAs by almost everyone in western countries. Genetically, Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews are even more Levantine shifted than Cretans and they don't look ''MENA'' on average (Sephardics look even less MENA than Ashkenazis imo) .

It does not matter even if they think Turkey is an Arabic country. We are not talking about perceptions but facts, Cretans score 17% SW Asian + 5% North African admixture and are Semite-shifted. Most people in the USA think of Irish actors they've seen on Hollywood movies (such as 300) when they hear "Greeks," perceptions = / = reality

[Dorian]

Lol neckbeard what good life?wear sunglasses to hide your faggot nerdy eyes.

[Odin]

The Normans in Sicily.

[Grace O'Malley]

Normans left a miniscule legacy in Sicily. This is obvious looking at genetics.

[Voskos]

I score around 20% italian on average , except in myheritage where i score 1%.