Could Iberian E-V13 be Visigothic?

[Synapsid]

They found E-v13 in a 7,000 cardial ware culture remain in Spain in the paper Lacan et al. (2011). It could have its roots in the other end of the Adriatic. So there was an cultural arc, spreading from the dinaric alps to the Iberian peninsula. Possessed identical haplotypes as found in modern European individuals (five Albanians, two Provence French, two Corsicans, two Bosnians, one Italian, one Sicilian, and one Greek).

[Nassbean]

He is stubborn, because how do you explain the E-M81 frencuencies in places that have not been touched by the islamic invasion? Examples:

Auvergne (Central France) = 5%
Île-de-France (North France) = 5%
Sardinia = 6%
Lucera = 3%

This E-M81 was brought mainly by neolithic farmers.

source for this ? And many french people have iberian ancestors (sardinia faced both iberian and NA settlements nothing surprising here)


Are you joking ? I thought you were trolling me but you can maybe bring EEF for e-v13 and e-m78 but certainly not e-m81 which is specifically maghrebi and recent

[Cristiano viejo]

I'll repost it :




https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707643651

they are your nightmare because you don't know how to explain it
What happens is That I don't need to explain anything, Pasiegos are as Spanish as myself, and only a complexed and obsessed moor like you think they have something to do with you, which is hilarious since they don't look like you at all, and culturally less even, for your disgrace :laugh:

I love them since they are the alive proof any "North African" haplogroup does not come from Muslims :mocking:

[Nassbean]

What happens is That I don't need to explain anything, Pasiegos are as Spanish as myself, and only a complexed and obsessed moor like you think they have something to do with you, which is hilarious since they don't look like you at all, and culturally less even, for your disgrace :laugh:

I love them since they are the alive proof any "North African" haplogroup does not come from Muslims :mocking:

Again you don't really know how genetics works : you can be 100% iberian and looking like a scandinavian and still having a black or east asian haplogroup. Haplogroups don't equal autosomal composition that's what you can't understand.

[Synapsid]

He is stubborn, because how do you explain the E-M81 frencuencies in places that have not been touched by the islamic invasion? Examples:

Auvergne (Central France) = 5%
Île-de-France (North France) = 5%
Sardinia = 6%
Lucera = 3%

This E-M81 was brought mainly by neolithic farmers.

It probably came with Farmers, it probably did not, we don't know. E-M81 remains had not been found in EEF or Anatolian samples in the early stages of neolithic expansion, it only existed it North African and Levant samples that taforalt intogression at the time

[Rocinante]

source for this ? And many french people have iberian ancestors (sardinia faced both iberian and NA settlements nothing surprising here)


Are you joking ? I thought you were trolling me but you can maybe bring EEF for e-v13 and e-m78 but certainly not e-m81 which is specifically maghrebi and recent

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181964/

Sorry, i was thinking on E-M78 that was indeed brought by farmers, but E-M81 is iberomaurusian, even before farmers.

[Rocinante]

It probably came with Farmers, it probably did not, we don't know. E-M81 remains had not been found in EEF or Anatolian samples in the early stages of neolithic expansion, it only existed it North African and Levant samples that taforalt intogression at the time

I meant M78, sorry. M78 was brought to Iberia by farmers, bet my ass it was. M81 is iberomaurisian.

[Synapsid]

I'll repost it :




https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707643651

they are your nightmare because you don't know how to explain it ...reality is that a brown NA penis penetrated a cantabrian vagina and it seems these iberian women were quite fertile that's why the study talks about a founder effect :rolleyes:

Aren't cantabrians the lightest people in Iberia?

[Synapsid]

I meant M78, sorry. M78 was brought to Iberia by farmers, bet my ass it was. M81 is iberomaurisian.

Its still a mystery how M78 reached Europe. All early farmer populations in Anatolia and Europe, from Barcin_N to linear band ceramic in Germany were either G or T

[Cristiano viejo]

Aren't cantabrians the lightest people in Iberia?

No. I mean, All of us look the same. But the point is That pasiegos specifically look everything less north africans and of course, they never Had any contact with muslims.

[Nassbean]

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181964/

Sorry, i was thinking on E-M78 that was indeed brought by farmers, but E-M81 is iberomaurusian, even before farmers.

most modern north africans are under e-m81 and that's for the last 2000 years ...stop being so dishonest it's clear that e-m81 in Iberia was brought by north african settlers that's why we don't find it among copper and bronze age samples. And as far as I know there is no iberomaurusian sample under e-m81 or any iberomaurusian sample found in Iberia.

[Nassbean]

Aren't cantabrians the lightest people in Iberia?

idk

[Rocinante]

Aren't cantabrians the lightest people in Iberia?

It's hard to say that someone here is more light to other. Cantabrian peoples (galicians, asturians, cantabrians and basques) are lighter is just because they only get a little burn in august, they have the best climate (IMHO) of Iberia. For the expert eye, and i would say, i am one, since i traveled a lot through Castilla y Leon, Galicia, Madrid, Asturias and a bit in Cataluña and Castilla - La Mancha, i would say that the distribution of lighter people is almost equal. The most scandivanian looking person i ever saw in Spain was in Valladolid, in a tourist tend (no, it wans't Cristiano viejo, actually was a very beautiful woman, and i even don't like blondes).

[Synapsid]

No. I mean, All of us look the same. But the point is That pasiegos specifically look everything less north africans and of course, they never Had any contact with muslims.

I see. They seem to be amongst the most autochthonous people in Iberia along with the basque since the celtiberian migration. It seems that they never encountered the phoneticians or cathegenians, were only conqured by rome late after 200 years of war, little to no contact with Muslim invaders etc although strangely they do have some low level NA admix that is slightly above the national norm, atleast compared to Catalonia, Navarre, Andalusia etc

[Rocinante]

most modern north africans are under e-m81 and that's for the last 2000 years ...stop being so dishonest it's clear that e-m81 in Iberia was brought by north african settlers that's why we don't find it among copper and bronze age samples. And as far as I know there is no iberomaurusian sample under e-m81 or any iberomaurusian sample found in Iberia.

Not being dishonest. I know that E-M81 is north african and that the 4% of the iberians that have this, come from them, but the thing is, when did this E-M81 arrived to the iberian peninsula? I think most of them are before the Islamic period, could be from carthagians or punics. To me is a good theory and conclusion.

[Synapsid]

Not being dishonest. I know that E-M81 is north african and that the 4% of the iberians that have this, come from them, but the thing is, when did this E-M81 arrived to the iberian peninsula? I think most of them are before the Islamic period, could be from carthagians or punics. To me is a good theory and conclusion.

The earliest M78/E-V13 in Iberia comes from Impressed wares culture in Adriatic IMO. It spread across the dinaric mountains to the alps, to S. France, across the Pyrenees to NE Spain where it was first found. Its sub-clade identical to other European E-V13

[Nassbean]

Not being dishonest. I know that E-M81 is north african and that the 4% of the iberians that have this, come from them, but the thing is, when did this E-M81 arrived to the iberian peninsula? I think most of them are before the Islamic period, could be from carthagians or punics. To me is a good theory and conclusion.

that's not what the studies show : most of it came with the moorish conquest. I don't understand why many iberian members always try to deny the impact of the moorish conquest and brought carthaginians or even older settlers. I mean what does it change ? They were all north africans no matter their religion I don't see why it would be better to receive NA admixture from a carthaginian than a moorish soldier during the 10th century :confused:

Some members here are clearly biased and influenced by their socio-cultural background. If you want to defend your theory pls bring a study/something consistent like I did.

[Synapsid]

that's not what the studies show : most of it came with the moorish conquest. I don't understand why many iberian members always try to deny the impact of the moorish conquest and brought carthaginians or even older settlers. I mean what does it change ? They were all north africans no matter their religion I don't see why it would be better to receive NA admixture from a carthaginian than a moorish soldier during the 10th century :confused:

Some members here are clearly biased and influenced by their socio-cultural background. If you want to defend your theory pls bring a study/something consistent like I did.

Carthagenians are seen as more 'western' as they were the second most powerful classical antiquity city state after Rome in the Med basin, hundreds of Greek-Roman were written about them from Herodotus and Aristotle to Jordans in Byzantium, all of which influenced Renaissance scholars and 18th-19th century classicists. While the moors are seen as backward and evil oriental foot soldiers who want to export an anti-Western draconian religion to Europa regardless of wither they are genetically the same as a Carthaginian

[Daos777]

The earliest M78/E-V13 in Iberia comes from Impressed wares culture in Adriatic IMO. It spread across the dinaric mountains to the alps, to S. France, across the Pyrenees to NE Spain where it was first found. Its sub-clade identical to other European E-V13

But there was already a sample of E-V13 in Spain that predates the impressed ware culture. Also Impressed ware culture reached Sardinia but no E-V13 there.

[Cristiano viejo]

Some members here are clearly biased and influenced by their socio-cultural background.

Yes, you.

[Cristiano viejo]

Carthagenians are seen as more 'western' as they were the second most powerful classical antiquity city state after Rome in the Med basin, hundreds of Greek-Roman were written about them from Herodotus and Aristotle to Jordans in Byzantium, all of which influenced Renaissance scholars and 18th-19th century classicists. While the moors are seen as backward and evil oriental foot soldiers who want to export an anti-Western draconian religion to Europa regardless of wither they are genetically the same as a Carthaginian
Not the same a North African from 2000 or 7000 years ago that these savages nd uncivilized from the Middle Ages.No comment modern North Africans who are practically quadroons and fully undeveloped.

There is a difference.

[Nassbean]

Carthagenians are seen as more 'western' as they were the second most powerful classical antiquity city state after Rome in the Med basin, hundreds of Greek-Roman were written about them from Herodotus and Aristotle to Jordans in Byzantium, all of which influenced Renaissance scholars and 18th-19th century classicists. While the moors are seen as backward and evil oriental foot soldiers who want to export an anti-Western draconian religion to Europa regardless of wither they are genetically the same as a Carthaginian

That's quite ironic because carthaginians were way less tolerant than the later moors when it comes to Iberia but yes I understand that's why I said many members here are biased and influenced by their socio-cultural environnement.

[Nassbean]

Not the same a North African from 2000 or 7000 years ago that these savages nd uncivilized from the Middle Ages.No comment modern North Africans who are practically quadroons and fully undeveloped.

There is a difference.

quite ironic coming from a spanish while it's phoenicians, carthaginians, romans and the moors that civilized your barbaric celtiberian and iberian tribes.

[Cristiano viejo]

quite ironic coming from a spanish while it's phoenicians, carthaginians, romans and the moors that civilized your barbaric celtiberian and iberian tribes.

Yes, specially Carthaginians and moors :lol:

[Gallop]

Absolutamente no, no y no y no hay más que hablar.
No es no.

[zebruh]

Depends on the subclade. Search up the subclades on Y tree and ftdna project

[Gallop]

Depends on the subclade. Search up the subclades on Y tree and ftdna project

Many people do not know that when you enter a project you are giving permission for those who lead the project to access all your genetic data and, in addition to not being informed of anything, you can take surprises and see a publication about your data without your consent and also erroneous .

[Germaniac]

But there was already a sample of E-V13 in Spain that predates the impressed ware culture. Also Impressed ware culture reached Sardinia but no E-V13 there.

All of that old E-V13 died out in Iberia, as all current E-V13 descends from survivors of a bottleneck about 2000 B.C. in the northern Balkans. The Visigoths being actually a mixture of Dacians, Thracians, and Germanic tribesmen (and having a small amount of E-V13 even when they were in what today is northern Poland are surely at least one source of E-V13 in the Peninsula.

[Jingle Bell]

Yes, also J-L283, I2a2a and some branchs of R1b, R1a
Visigoths were the Germanic which did most impact in Iberia. The imigration of they was also heavy made of males so their impact was mostly in Ydna but also autossonomical, they were a mix of Germanic + Slavic + Balkanic + Italian Imperial, unlike Suebis that get here pretty much full Germanic:

https://i.imgur.com/3Xp1cO6.png

[Kriptc06]

Yes, also J-L283, I2a2a and some branchs of R1b, R1a
Visigoths were the Germanic which did most impact in Iberia. The imigration of they was also heavy made of males so their impact was mostly in Ydna but also autossonomical, they were a mix of Germanic + Slavic + Balkanic + Italian Imperial, unlike Suebis that get here pretty much full Germanic:

https://i.imgur.com/3Xp1cO6.png

Still a possibility tho, could be visigothic, roman, or be already there all along, mine looks quite recent, were talking about middle ages, so this post makes a little more sence now that I know my final subclade

[Gallop]

Someone has information or the sample token

Szeged 332