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View Full Version : Sarno et al 2017: South Italians and Greek islanders plot together.



Sikeliot
05-16-2017, 07:16 PM
"The Mediterranean shores stretching between Sicily, Southern Italy and the Southern Balkans witnessed a long series of migration processes and cultural exchanges. Accordingly, present-day population diversity is composed by multiple genetic layers, which make the deciphering of different ancestral and historical contributes particularly challenging. We address this issue by genotyping 511 samples from 23 populations of Sicily, Southern Italy, Greece and Albania with the Illumina GenoChip Array, also including new samples from Albanian- and Greek-speaking ethno-linguistic minorities of Southern Italy. Our results reveal a shared Mediterranean genetic continuity, extending from Sicily to Cyprus, where Southern Italian populations appear genetically closer to Greek-speaking islands than to continental Greece. Besides a predominant Neolithic background, we identify traces of Post-Neolithic Levantine- and Caucasus-related ancestries, compatible with maritime Bronze-Age migrations. We argue that these results may have important implications in the cultural history of Europe, such as in the diffusion of some Indo-European languages. Instead, recent historical expansions from North-Eastern Europe account for the observed differentiation of present-day continental Southern Balkan groups. Patterns of IBD-sharing directly reconnect Albanian-speaking Arbereshe with a recent Balkan-source origin, while Greek-speaking communities of Southern Italy cluster with their Italian-speaking neighbours suggesting a long-term history of presence in Southern Italy."


"Modern Southern Italian and Southern Balkan populations are located at the centre of the PCA plot (Fig. 2, Supplementary Fig. S1), forming an almost uninterrupted bridge between the two parallel clines of distribution where most of the other modern populations are found, one stretching along the East-West axis of Europe and the other from the Near East to the Caucasus, respectively (see also Supplementary Information). In particular, Sicily and Southern Italy (SSI) appear as belonging to a wide and homogeneous genetic domain, which is shared by large portions of the present-day South-Eastern Euro-Mediterranean area, extending from Sicily to Cyprus, through Crete, Aegean-Dodecanese and Anatolian Greek Islands. We will refer to this domain as ‘Mediterranean genetic continuum’. On the other hand, the continental part of Greece, including Peloponnesus, appears as slightly differentiated, by clustering with the other Southern Balkan populations of Albania and Kosovo. Finally, North-Central Balkan groups (Southern Slavic-speakers and Romanians) show affinity to Eastern Europeans (Fig. 2, Supplementary Fig. S1, Supplementary Information).

Admixture results further show our newly analysed populations as a blend of the major ancestry genetic components detected in the broader Mediterranean region, namely the European-like, Caucasian-like, Sardinian-like and Near Eastern-like ones (Supplementary Fig. S2a, Supplementary Information). Importantly, three of them find empirical correspondence (see Supplementary Information for more details) to ancient population ancestries, represented respectively by European Hunter Gatherers, Caucasus Hunter Gatherers and Early Neolithic farmers (Supplementary Fig. S3). All populations from Southern Italy (SSI), Greece (both mainland and insular) and Southern Balkans share a predominant Sardinian (Neolithic-like) genetic component which accounts for more than half of their ancestry. This is followed by a relevant Caucasian-like ancestry, which is present at around 24% in all our population samples (Supplementary Fig. S2b). The other two major components instead show opposite patterns. The Near Eastern-like ancestry is more frequent in SSI and the Greek-speaking islands (i.e. the ‘Mediterranean continuum’), whereas increasing frequencies of the European-like component are observed in Albanians and mainland Greeks as well as in the rest of the Balkan Peninsula (Supplementary Fig. S2b). Interestingly, Grecani of Calabria (GRI_BOV and GRI_CAL) and Cypriots share lower frequencies of the European-like ancestry (2.5% and 0.5%, respectively) compared to the other surrounding populations (Southern Italy: ~8%; Continental Greece and Albanians: ~15%).

[...]

The emerging patterns have been further explored with the fastIBD analysis, by comparing values of IBD-sharing between the Southern Italian and Southern Balkan analysed populations (Fig. 4, Supplementary Information). Overall, patterns of IBD-relatedness suggest that ‘continuum’ populations (i.e. both Southern Italy and the Mediterranean Greek islands) share relatively more segments with the Caucasus and the Near East, while Albania and continental Greece appear significantly more related with Central and Northern Balkans, as well as Eastern Europe. Interestingly, despite showing much lower values of sharing, some Balkan IBD-relatedness also emerges in Greek-speaking islands as well as in Apulia and Western Sicily, presumptively reproducing some forms of interaction with Greece and the Balkans in the very recent ancestry of these areas, as consistently signalled by a common sharing of individuals in the FineSTRUCTURE AW-Sicily cluster (see also Supplementary Information).

[...]

While Albanian-speaking Arbereshe trace their recent genetic ancestry to the Southern Balkans, the Greek-speaking communities of both Apulia (Griko) and Calabria (Grecani) show no clear signs of a recent (i.e. from the late Middle Ages) continental Greek origin, instead resembling the ‘continuum’ populations of Southern Italy and the Greek-speaking islands (Fig. 3, Supplementary Table S5, Supplementary Fig. S7, Supplementary Information).

Different hypotheses, either counterpoising or combining the Hellenic (Magna Graecia) and Byzantine colonization, have been historically proposed to explain the presence of present-day Greek-speaking communities in Southern Italy. Although different extents of Hellenic and Byzantine pressures were suggested to have demographically and culturally affected Calabrian and Apulian Greeks respectively, both historical and linguistic data agree on the fact that the current extension of these groups is a remnant of a wider Greek-speaking area, originally extended to larger parts of Apulia, Calabria and Sicily24. In the whole area, the Greek-language was well represented before the spread of Latin, and this Greek substratum has influenced the local Romance varieties in various respects. In fact, contacts between Greek and Romance speakers have been frequent and systematic27. Accordingly, historical and linguistic data suggest that this area was characterized by a pervasive multilingualism at least from the antiquity27, 37, 38, thus showing that both cultural transmission and genetic admixture may have played an important role in the formative process of these groups since the very beginning.

In this light, the tight genetic similarity between Salentino Greeks (GRI_SAL) and Italian neighbours (particularly from the province of Lecce-LE; Fig. 3, Supplementary Table S5, Supplementary Information), may be explained both as the result of extensive admixture events (coupled with lesser geographic isolation) or as the result of cultural transmission of Greek languages to Italian local populations. Importantly, these scenarios are not mutually exclusive, on the contrary the most recent syntheses tend to hypothesize a long-term Greek presence in Southern Italy, starting from the classical period and subsequently reinforced by continuous genetic and cultural interactions (e.g. during the Byzantine period) at least until medieval times - and even later.

In this context, the Grecanic groups from Calabria (GRI_BOV and GRI_CAL) remarkably show evidences of genetic differentiation, as suggested by PCA (Supplementary Fig. S7, Supplementary Information), ADMIXTURE (Supplementary Fig. S2) and fineSTRUCTURE (Fig. 3, Supplementary Fig. S5, Supplementary Table S4). These results are further confirmed by the presence of significantly high within-population average IBD-sharing and number of homozygosity runs (RoH) (Supplementary Fig. S8, Supplementary Table S6, Supplementary Information), as expected for more isolated and inbred populations. Beyond the linguistic differences, their marked geographic isolation and lower effective population size may have favoured the action of drift phenomena. This may have modified their genetic composition through the random amplification/fixation (or loss) of specific parts of the original genetic background.

Furthermore, we observed that both Calabrian and Apulian Greeks from Southern Italy almost completely lack the ‘Southern Balkan’ genetic component detected in Continental Greece and Albania, as well as in the Arbereshe. In both cases, this is consistent with the fact that their arrival in Southern Italy should at least predate those population processes associated to the more recent (i.e. late medieval) differentiation of continental Greek and Southern Balkan groups (cf. paragraph below). This does not exclude migrations from Aegean/Dodecanese and Crete islands, that presumptively did not (or only marginally) experienced - by virtue of their higher geographic marginality - the North-South Balkan gene flow that instead interested the continental part of Greece.

[...]

The most recent literature demonstrated significant impact of Caucasus-related ancestry in the Central European Late-Neolithic and Bronze-Age through the migrations of Yamnaya/Pontic-Steppe herders4. Accordingly, our results confirm that Caucasus-related admixture via Yamnaya is present in Eastern and Central-Western European clusters (i.e. Continental Europe; Supplementary Table S8, Supplementary Information). However, among our Mediterranean groups, evidence of Yamnaya (and EHG) introgression seems to be present at a lesser extent and was detected mainly in Balkan-related groups (Supplementary Table S8, Supplementary Information), which in turn display traces of admixture with Eastern Europe (Fig. 4, Supplementary Fig. S2). In addition, outgroup-f3 values for Late Neolithic/Bronze Age samples (especially Yamnaya) appear lower in all our newly analysed Mediterranean populations (Supplementary Fig. S9). These results suggest that the genetic history of Southern Italian and Balkan populations may have been, at least in part, independent from that of Eastern and Central Europe, involving specific migratory events that carried Caucasian and Levantine genetic contributes along the Mediterranean shores (see Supplementary Information). This picture may bring important implications for our understanding of the cultural history of Europe, and in particular for the diffusion of Indo-European languages. The Steppe in the Early Bronze Age has been supported as a source of at least some Indo-European languages entering North-Central Europe at that time4. In southern Mediterranean Europe, however, our results suggest lower impacts. Any significant Steppe/northern component may have arrived in the south Balkan mainland and southern Italy only later, by which time Indo-European languages of the Italic, Greek and various Balkan branches had already established themselves there. This would suggest that a Bronze Age Steppe source may be not highly consistent with all branches of the Indo-European family (see also Broushaki et al.40).
[...]

Our results demonstrate that the genetic variability of present-day Southern Italian populations is characterized by a shared genetic continuity, extending to large portions of central and eastern Mediterranean shores. This area, which is cored in Southern Italy and the Greek-speaking islands, exceeds cross-linguistic differences, encompassing populations belonging to different Indo-European subfamilies (Greek, Romance, Albanian). Noticeably, Southern Italy appear more similar to the Greek-speaking islands of the Mediterranean Sea, reaching as far east as Cyprus, than to samples from continental Greece, suggesting a possible ancestral link which might have survived in a less admixed form in the islands. Their genetic ancestry traces its heritage to complex and extensive patterns of pre- and proto-historical admixture. Besides a predominant Neolithic-like component, our analyses reveal significant impacts of Post-Neolithic Caucasus- and Levantine-related ancestries, which might be further addressed by future studies with a higher sample coverage for a precise contextualization in time and space and by integrating multiple lines of evidence from different disciplines (e.g. linguistics, archaeology, paleogenomics). More recent historical expansions from Continental Europe added further admixture layers, accounting for the genetic and cultural complexity that currently differentiates present-day Southern Balkan and Southern Italian populations.

This complex genetic scenario opens new insights into the recent cultural transformations associated to the Greek- and Albanian-introgressions in Southern Italy that originated the Italian Arbereshe and Greek-speaking ethno-linguistic minorities. Overall, Arbereshe groups confirm the Southern Balkan genetic characterization typical of their putative source populations, whereas Italian Greeks are related to the Mediterranean ‘genetic continuum’ (i.e. to Southern Italians and the Greek-speaking islands); as a consequence, their arrival in Southern Italy could at least predate the recent differentiation of mainland Greece. A possible key of interpretation would stress the Mediterranean genetic signal as the result of ancient links, which were partly modified by more recent historical movements in the Southern Balkans involving Continental Greece and Albania. In this light, the genetic similarity between Greek- and Italian-speaking groups of Southern Italy may suggest long-standing genetic and cultural exchanges originally diffused over the whole region, also outside the ethno-linguistic enclaves that survived until the present times. This would not exclude that continuous interactions between the Italian- and Greek-speaking populations of Southern Italy, especially in contexts of lower geographic isolation, contributed to their present-day genetic similarity in spite of the preserved linguistic differences. Additionally, Greeks from Calabria revealed remarkable signs of genetic drift, which are presumptively ascribable not only to cultural but also to geographic isolation. This fact led to their partial differentiation from their Italian local neighbours, despite common patterns of IBD-sharing.

While more specific hypotheses could be only elucidated by the discovery of new local sources of aDNA for testing explicit models, our results hint to some important implications from both genetic and cultural viewpoints, illustrating the different and complex dynamics that accompanied the formation of present-day cultural heritage, especially in contexts of extensive - both geographically and temporally - admixture. The genetic patterns observed in Southern Italy integrate the picture of the genomic structure of Europe and the Mediterranean, and support different histories behind the evolution of the Southern Italian ethno-linguistic minorities, moreover emphasizing the importance of considering complementary scales of investigations and detailed population samplings to assess demographic processes involving tightly related ancestries."

Sikeliot
05-16-2017, 07:24 PM
See this too. Trapani has the most "Euro" ancestry in Sicily, while Palermo is the least!!! Enna is a regular East Sicilian population.

So much for 'Norman' Palermo. Palermo is the most exotic sample.

Crete is like another Sicilian population.

http://i64.tinypic.com/2nk1lj6.jpg

MINARDOWICZ
05-16-2017, 07:30 PM
This thread is a big "I told you so!" to the Greek posters. Haha!

Sikeliot
05-16-2017, 07:33 PM
This thread is a big "I told you so!" to the Greek posters. Haha!

Here is the other PCA. Also a big "told you so!" to the people going on about Palermo being so Norman. No. Palermo has the least 'Euro-like" ancestry on that chart and actually is the most Near Eastern.

http://i65.tinypic.com/5uhezk.jpg

Sikeliot
05-16-2017, 07:39 PM
"GRK_AEI" is the Aegean islands, other than Crete. They are more Caucasian than the Sicilians/Cretans, but the least Near Eastern (Levant, Arabian, etc.). But they are still within the same continuum and closely related.

Lavrentis
05-16-2017, 07:51 PM
This thread is a big "I told you so!" to the Greek posters. Haha!

Can you elaborate? I'm new here

Petalpusher
05-16-2017, 07:51 PM
These foreign "influences" are always overestimated, unless there is hundred thousands of people settling in a place totally assimilated, or huge founder effects, it's never as significant as people believe. To change a whole country, even an island's genetic, you need a lot more than like a ruling class or cultural influences.

They also hint at a Levantine_BA input, they are really slow to understand this... when it's pretty obvious to see there is something like that, at least they finally begin to get it in several studies lately.

Sikeliot
05-16-2017, 07:54 PM
They also hint at a Levantine_BA input, they are really slow to understand this... when it's pretty obvious to see there is something like that, at least they finally begin to get it in several studies lately.

I think the largest Levantine influence in Sicily and southern Italy happened between 6000 BC and year 0.

Do you see any surprises in the PCA or admixture chart?

Petalpusher
05-16-2017, 08:10 PM
I think the largest Levantine influence in Sicily and southern Italy happened between 6000 BC and year 0.

Do you see any surprises in the PCA or admixture chart?

The pca looks as usual, except the two samples on the left, they seem inbred from what they describe but i wonder if they are not like a relic of this new peloponnese neolithic sample (the pca needs to be rotated counter clockwise to make sense).

Something unrelated i already noticed in several calculators is that Gheg looks very early neo, and low near eastern, it's imo where this whole additional Levant_BA stops to be at relevant levels but maybe still a bit of Chalcolithic/Caucasus (outside of the steppe's caucasus)

Sikeliot
05-16-2017, 09:20 PM
What's going on with the Griko from Calabria? They have even less "European" than do Sicilians, Italian-speaking Calabrese, Cretans, and Dodecanese (GR_AEI).

Argentano
05-16-2017, 09:26 PM
Interesting study:thumb001:

Sikeliot
05-16-2017, 09:29 PM
Interesting study:thumb001:

Any surprises or more or less what you'd expect?

Argentano
05-16-2017, 09:32 PM
Any surprises or more or less what you'd expect?

where is the link to the study?

Tacitus
05-16-2017, 09:36 PM
Some notes:

1) Here's a more detailed PCA from the supplementary info. It doesn’t quite show southern Italians plotting with Greek islanders, but to the west (forming their own distinct, separate cluster), although there looks to be some amount of overlap between the two. Also of note, Ashkenazi Jews plot closer to islanders than to the south Italian cluster. The authors call it a continuum anyway, from Sicily to Cyprus, through Crete and the Dodecannese (their words).
http://i.imgur.com/1Yi89bu.png

2) Per the coordinates provided in the supplementary info, here are the locations of where their mainland Greek samples came from (Additional mainland Greek samples came from Greek-American samples from the Geno 2.0 project FWIW):
Northern Greece: Grevena, West Macedonia (n=9)
Central Greece: Lamia (n=13)
Peloponnese: Tripoli (n=28)
I’m somewhat surprised that Peloponnesians plot where they do in this study given Stamatoyannopoulos et al, but the latter did use more samples from all over the region compared to Sarno. I wish they would have been available for this study.
3) It’s interesting how the Calabrian Greeks look to be a very isolated population compared to their counterparts in Salento. I think much of that comes down to geography since villages in the area are either high in the mountains or along the coast buttressed by said mountains, and as they mention, there’s a lot of potential for bottlenecking and drift.

4) Also interesting are how Arbereshe plot close to Ghegs even though they’re usually affiliated with Tosks due to many of them coming from south Albania, in addition to the fact when they arrived in Italy they were Greek Orthodox before morphing into Byzantine Catholics (as opposed to Ghegs who were Roman Catholic).

Sikeliot
05-16-2017, 09:37 PM
where is the link to the study?

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-01802-4

Sikeliot
05-17-2017, 02:11 PM
I am enjoying seeing the ItalicRoots posters struggle to explain the results here. It is so funny.

Voskos
05-18-2017, 07:28 PM
you were right about everything except about cypriots. they are not levantines as you claimed

Sikeliot
05-18-2017, 07:52 PM
you were right about everything except about cypriots. they are not levantines as you claimed

What is also interesting is Sicilians and Aegean islanders are equidistant from Cypriots, because Sicilians better match them in Near East/Natufian but Aegean islanders better match them in Caucasus.

Cypriots seem to be closer in this study to South Italy/Crete/Aegean than to the Levant actually.

caviezel
05-18-2017, 08:00 PM
so what does Racial Reality think of this study?

Voskos
05-18-2017, 08:34 PM
What's going on with the Griko from Calabria? They have even less "European" than do Sicilians, Italian-speaking Calabrese, Cretans, and Dodecanese (GR_AEI).

whats interesting is Greeks from Salento apparently sharing a significant amount of IBD with Cretans.

Voskos
05-18-2017, 08:59 PM
What is also interesting is Sicilians and Aegean islanders are equidistant from Cypriots, because Sicilians better match them in Near East/Natufian but Aegean islanders better match them in Caucasus.

Cypriots seem to be closer in this study to South Italy/Crete/Aegean than to the Levant actually.

the only thing that separates the balkan from the sicilian-greek island clusters is the difference in Near eastern and Slavic admixture. basically just an artificial-theoretical separation that gets overemphasized by all studies.

Sikeliot
05-18-2017, 10:34 PM
the only thing that separates the balkan from the sicilian-greek island clusters is the difference in Near eastern and Slavic admixture. basically just an artificial-theoretical separation that gets overemphasized by all studies.

If you removed the Slavic input from the mainland, the difference between mainland and islands would be mostly in the red Near East component, which was likely never much higher than it is today.

Sikeliot
05-18-2017, 10:37 PM
I wish I could put numbers to this but based on looking with my eyes, the highest Near East element seems to be Agrigento > Palermo/Catania > Calabria but it's more or less evenly dispersed in Sicily/Calabria, minus Trapani which has just slightly more than Crete.

catgeorge
05-18-2017, 10:39 PM
Greek islanders plot with mainland Greeks the closest. Because - Duh.

QueenB posted a set of Greeks and you could not answer who is from who.

Böri
05-18-2017, 10:43 PM
And Cyprus has continuum with Levant but this is overlooked for some reasons and continuum surprisedly 'cut, there..

Sikeliot
05-18-2017, 10:48 PM
Greek islanders plot with mainland Greeks the closest.

Genetically, they do not.

catgeorge
05-18-2017, 10:55 PM
Genetically, they do not.

Then you need to reasses the garbage you read because genetically they do (due to islanders migrating to main land and vice versa)

GiCa
05-18-2017, 10:56 PM
this thread makes me remeber that i've visited the Delphi Oracle 4 years ago on the Parnasus Mountain; suposedly that place is where some southern italians's ancestors decided to depart to colonize southern italy

even if still Greeks faces types-structure seem to me different from the ones of southern italians that have their own faces


i realized how many people decided to depart with the aid of the oracle to southern italy

Sikeliot
05-18-2017, 10:56 PM
Then you need to reasses the garbage you read because genetically they do (due to islanders migrating to main land and vice versa)

Did you not read this study?

brennus dux gallorum
05-18-2017, 10:58 PM
First of all it doesn't make clear from which islands was the sample, cause nearly half of Aegean samples I have seen (cyclades and North Aegean) are clearly closer to pelloponese than to Sicily

Second,in the diagram "continental Greece" is equidistant between south Italy and Albania, I guess even closer to central Italy

Anyway, there have obviously been significantly more levantine colonisations in some islands than in mainland, and the closer you go to middle east, the more impact in your dna

Sikeliot
05-18-2017, 10:58 PM
Looking at the admixture chart, "Northern Greece" is more European/less Caucasian than Albanians. This is surely because the Slavic influence is higher there. It is central Greece in fact, not Peloponnese, where the Slavic appears lowest.

Sikeliot
05-18-2017, 10:59 PM
First of all it doesn't make clear from which islands was the sample, cause nearly half of Aegean samples I have seen (cyclades and North Aegean) are clearly closer to pelloponese than to Sicily

Mostly Dodecanese but some of the other islands were sampled too. I can find an individual full admixture chart (rather than averages) but the resolution will be poor.

catgeorge
05-18-2017, 11:00 PM
Did you not read this study?

Yes and alot of it is magnified which is fine.

General rule of thumb -
Cyclades is closest to Athens
Dodecanese is closest to Smyrna
North Aegean Island is closest to Macedonia
Ionian Islands is closest to Thessaly.

Sikeliot
05-18-2017, 11:07 PM
On an individual level, some of the Aegean islanders and Palermitans have almost none of the blue "Europe" component!

http://i66.tinypic.com/2mdouud.jpg

brennus dux gallorum
05-18-2017, 11:08 PM
Looking at the admixture chart, "Northern Greece" is more European/less Caucasian than Albanians. This is surely because the Slavic influence is higher there. It is central Greece in fact, not Peloponnese, where the Slavic appears lowest.

That's because slavs in pelloponese were more "aggressive" against a more reduced population compare to central Greece

In any case, in both Slavic influence is insignificant, in the least populated part of pelloponese which happens to be the most Slavic influenced, the highest Slavic admixture is 15%

Sikeliot
05-18-2017, 11:16 PM
That's because slavs in pelloponese were more "aggressive" against a more reduced population compare to central Greece

In any case, in both Slavic influence is insignificant, in the least populated part of pelloponese which happens to be the most Slavic influenced, the highest Slavic admixture is 15%

So the blue component might not just be Slavic but other things too.

brennus dux gallorum
05-18-2017, 11:19 PM
So the blue component might not just be Slavic but other things too.

Considering that in most of the regions western euro ancestry is more common than eastern, it surely is also something else

Anyway, my impression is that they tend to "deeuropify" Mediterranean ancestries (see sardinian)

Voskos
05-21-2017, 04:20 PM
tosks seem to be more slavic than peloponnesians and central greeks, as expected. one more myth busted by science

Sikeliot
05-21-2017, 10:05 PM
tosks seem to be more slavic than peloponnesians and central greeks, as expected. one more myth busted by science

Yes, but less so than northern Greeks apparently. Based on these charts, Tosks would be south of people from Thessaloniki but north of people from Athens or Peloponnese.

Lucas
05-22-2017, 07:40 AM
Sikeliot what are your thoughts on that:
- Askhenazi "South Italian" ancestry is mostly this pre-IndoEuropean local Med.
- Similarity in some calcs of Askehanzi to Greeks islanders isn't due Greek ancestry but because of proto-South-Italian's similarity to proto-Greek Islanders.

Lucas
05-22-2017, 07:51 AM
Also Greek colonization from islands doesn't change much genetic landscape of South Italy because it was already similar genetically.

Sikeliot
05-22-2017, 09:23 PM
Sikeliot what are your thoughts on that:
- Askhenazi "South Italian" ancestry is mostly this pre-IndoEuropean local Med.
- Similarity in some calcs of Askehanzi to Greeks islanders isn't due Greek ancestry but because of proto-South-Italian's similarity to proto-Greek Islanders.


Also Greek colonization from islands doesn't change much genetic landscape of South Italy because it was already similar genetically.


Yes to all of this. Greek islanders have y-dna from the Balkans on many islands but it had a founder effect, meaning the DNA is still mostly pre-Greek autosomally. So when you look at many Sicilians who descend from islander Greeks (people along the southern coast especially) you see autosomal similarity to Greek islanders and Balkan y-dna, but a lot of this similarity is also due to the people on all of these islands having always been the same. There does not seem to be mainland Greek or Balkan autosomal affinity in eastern-central Sicily, Palermo, or Calabria (not even in Calabrese Greeks), but it is present in Apulia to a limited extent, Trapani, and Sicilian Arbereshe.

I am starting to think the Trapanese plot northward due to the assimilation of Arbereshe and post-Byzantine Greek influence, not due to Norman input.

brennus dux gallorum
05-22-2017, 09:36 PM
Yes to all of this. Greek islanders have y-dna from the Balkans on many islands but it had a founder effect, meaning the DNA is still mostly pre-Greek autosomally. So when you look at many Sicilians who descend from islander Greeks (people along the southern coast especially) you see autosomal similarity to Greek islanders and Balkan y-dna, but a lot of this similarity is also due to the people on all of these islands having always been the same. There does not seem to be mainland Greek or Balkan autosomal affinity in eastern-central Sicily, Palermo, or Calabria (not even in Calabrese Greeks), but it is present in Apulia to a limited extent, Trapani, and Sicilian Arbereshe.

I am starting to think the Trapanese plot northward due to the assimilation of Arbereshe and post-Byzantine Greek influence, not due to Norman input.

the same goes for the rest of Greece, but to a lesser extent, plus, more post-Hellenic foreign influence.

Anyway, do we know which part of Crete and Dodecanese overlaps part of Sicily, and which part of Sicily (i really don't think palermo, considering the phenotypes)

catgeorge
05-22-2017, 09:44 PM
Balkans have y-dna from Greeks - Balkans from 370 BC to to 800 AD was exclusively occupied by Greeks. I am not sure how 10 year incursions from Bulgars and Serbs could have altered the Greek genepool to such an effect as proposed by some mis educated posters.

No one till this day is able to dispute Thessalian neolithic expansion and Luca Cavalli Sforza on Greek YDNA other than spreading mis educated myths across the internet world. Its the Balkans that have Greek genome to the upper 20-30%+

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/Hellenas1977/Hellas1/pc4.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c8/74/9e/c8749efb42e5168ebb0fcab99cf9e9b6.jpg

Sikeliot
05-22-2017, 09:47 PM
the same goes for the rest of Greece, but to a lesser extent, plus, more post-Hellenic foreign influence.

Anyway, do we know which part of Crete and Dodecanese overlaps part of Sicily, and which part of Sicily (i really don't think palermo, considering the phenotypes)

Some of Palermo/Agrigento/Caltanissetta have very Semitic features even if they are not dark (they are more like Maltese and drift toward North African Jews).. At least I think so. Messina/Catania/Enna/Ragusa and SOME Palermitans are more Aegean islanders and Cretans. Syracuse is probably the most like mainland Greece, and Trapani seems more European shifted also.

brennus dux gallorum
05-22-2017, 09:54 PM
Balkans have y-dna from Greeks - Balkans from 370 BC to to 800 AD was exclusively occupied by Greeks. I am not sure how 10 year incursions from Bulgars and Serbs could have altered the Greek genepool to such an effect as proposed by some mis educated posters.

No one till this day is able to dispute Thessalian neolithic expansion and Luca Cavalli Sforza on Greek YDNA other than spreading mis educated myths across the internet world. Its the Balkans that have Greek genome to the upper 20-30%+

http://i1142.photobucket.com/albums/n606/Hellenas1977/Hellas1/pc4.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/c8/74/9e/c8749efb42e5168ebb0fcab99cf9e9b6.jpg

These studies are based on Y-DNA which shows things but it is 1/23 of Human's DNA. Autosomal is a better indicator, and from that aspect most of Greece (i would say Greece as a whole) is seperated from balkans, and South italy, in a weird way, ploting near central Italy.


But YDNA is useful from other aspects, such as showing the founder of a community etc.

Percivalle
05-22-2017, 10:50 PM
I am starting to think the Trapanese plot northward due to the assimilation of Arbereshe and post-Byzantine Greek influence, not due to Norman input.

That would be incredible, because there were no Arbereshe communities in the Trapanese. Also post-Byzantine Greek are recorded anywhere else in Sicily but less in the Trapanese.

Sikeliot
05-22-2017, 10:53 PM
That would be incredible, because there were no Arbereshe communities in the Trapanese. Also post-Byzantine Greek are recorded anywhere else in Sicily but less in the Trapanese.

Well there has to be something that happened to make Trapani not plot completely with the rest of Sicily.

Percivalle
05-22-2017, 10:55 PM
Well there has to be something that happened to make Trapani not plot completely with the rest of Sicily.

Bell Beaker?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/88/7c/61/887c61c651a36c3a0824af8e8ca4bd65.jpg

Sikeliot
05-22-2017, 10:59 PM
Bell Beaker?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/88/7c/61/887c61c651a36c3a0824af8e8ca4bd65.jpg

I've never seen this chart. So you think Trapani always differed then. Somehow it does not seem to have spilled much into Palermo autosomally though.

Percivalle
05-22-2017, 11:10 PM
I've never seen this chart. So you think Trapani always differed then. Somehow it does not seem to have spilled much into Palermo autosomally though.

If it's true that Trapani does not plot completely with the rest of Sicily, it could be a reason.


PACCI M. 1987, Regional aspects of Bell Beaker Culture: Western Sicily, Italy, in W. H. WALDREN, R. C. KENNARD (eds) Bell Beakers of the Western Mediterranean, Oxford.

Tusa (1987) 'The bell beaker in Sicily', in W.H. Waldren and R.C.Kennard (eds) Bell Beakers of the Western Mediterranean, Oxford.

Palermo has been the capital of the Sicily for many centuries and has attracted people from all the over the island.

Sikeliot
05-22-2017, 11:10 PM
Palermo has been the capital of the Sicily for many centuries and has attracted people from all the over the island.

And the Phoenician input was likely stronger.

GiCa
05-22-2017, 11:41 PM
sorry.. i lost some pieces

so.. where do the Trapanitans plot? in northern italy?

Sikeliot
05-22-2017, 11:42 PM
sorry.. i lost some pieces

so.. where do the Trapanitans plot? in northern italy?

More like Apulia.

GiCa
05-22-2017, 11:42 PM
More like Apulia.

still south

probably trapani was re-populated with apulians.. it's higly possible as in sicily there are many surnames with Apulian toponimics.. Puglisi, Baresi, Leccisi etc..

Sikeliot
05-22-2017, 11:54 PM
still south

probably trapani was re-populated with apulians.. it's higly possible as in sicily there are many surnames with Apulian toponimics.. Puglisi, Baresi, Leccisi etc..

I considered this because in the new study both groups had more affinity to the mainland Greek/Albanian cluster while the rest of Sicily and Calabria did not.

GiCa
05-22-2017, 11:58 PM
I considered this because in the new study both groups had more affinity to the mainland Greek/Albanian cluster while the rest of Sicily and Calabria did not.

thatn that's the reason: in Trapani there were sent some paysants from Apulia probably

Sikeliot
05-23-2017, 12:00 AM
thatn that's the reason: in Trapani there were sent some paysants from Apulia probably

The rest of Sicily (and Calabria too), by comparison, is closest to Crete. In fact Cretans may be closer to most of Sicily than Trapani is.

Percivalle
05-23-2017, 12:11 AM
thatn that's the reason: in Trapani there were sent some paysants from Apulia probably

It's very unlikely that these paysants from Apulia have completely changed the whole genome of Trapani people.

Sikeliot
05-23-2017, 12:21 AM
It's very unlikely that these paysants from Apulia have completely changed the whole genome of Trapani people.

So you think Trapani may have always been different?

It is funny because I have seen results from right over the border in Palermo province, who are more like people in Messina. Also, the part of Trapani nearer the Palermo border is not quite as distinct as places inland and along the far west coast (Erice, Trapani, etc).

Percivalle
05-23-2017, 12:37 AM
So you think Trapani may have always been different?.

If the academic sample from Trapani is accurate, it could be. A Bronze Age Bell Beaker input, when the population was small, it can have its weight, surely greater than a migration of paysants from Apulia in the Middle Ages. Obviously this is a conjecture.

Sikeliot
05-23-2017, 12:58 AM
If the academic sample from Trapani is accurate, it could be. A Bronze Age Bell Beaker input, when the population was small, it can have its weight, surely greater than a migration of paysants from Apulia in the Middle Ages. Obviously this is a conjecture.

Here is an example, this is Dodecad K12b. This person is from inland Trapani. The reason they are different is the Atlanto-Med can be higher than the Caucasus, whereas in other regions, Caucasus is always 30%+ and in some cases close to 40%.

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic_Med 31.67
2 Caucasus 29.19
3 North_European 13.9
4 Southwest_Asian 13.44
5 Gedrosia 5.7
6 Northwest_African 4.57
7 East_African 0.83
8 Sub_Saharan 0.46
9 South_Asian 0.24

Sikeliot
05-25-2017, 10:45 PM
Also of note, Ashkenazi Jews plot closer to islanders than to the south Italian cluster. The authors call it a continuum anyway, from Sicily to Cyprus, through Crete and the Dodecannese (their words).

The North African and Sephardi Jews are closer to the southern Italians though. Southern Italians and these Jews are closer to the Levantines, and the Cretans/Dodecanese shift toward the Caucasus.

XenophobicPrussian
05-25-2017, 11:00 PM
Besides a predominant Neolithic background, we identify traces of Post-Neolithic Levantine- and Caucasus-related ancestries, compatible with maritime Bronze-Age migrations.
Didn't need a new study to tell you this, was already known for awhile(to everyone except Italicroots).

Italicroots: Irrelevant guys, it came in 2000 BC, not recently, that means we're still 100% European!

Jesus, these people really either need to stop hating on MENAs, become racial egalitarian blank-slate SJWs or accept the hierarchy.

Sikeliot
05-25-2017, 11:08 PM
Didn't need a new study to tell you this, was already known for awhile(to everyone except Italicroots).

Yes.

Here is the full plot. The middle pink circle is Cyprus. The lighter red are Sicily and southern Italy, with the ones closest to Cyprus being Sicilians. It appears the Sicilians, Cypriots, and North African Jews shift to the Levant, while the Cretans/Dodecanese are a tiny bit more Caucasian. I do not see an "east" vs "west" division like Tacitus claims.

http://i67.tinypic.com/iqv3ww.jpg

pmv74
05-26-2017, 03:47 PM
The North African and Sephardi Jews are closer to the southern Italians though. Southern Italians and these Jews are closer to the Levantines, and the Cretans/Dodecanese shift toward the Caucasus.
Sikeliot, I agree that North Africa and Sephardi Jews are similar to southern Italians/Sicilian such as myself. Most of the calculators peg me as Southern Italian or Eastern Sicilian as my closest regions but after that I usually get a lot of North African Jewish, Sephardic Jewish or even ashkanazi jewish


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Sikeliot
05-26-2017, 09:30 PM
Sikeliot, I agree that North Africa and Sephardi Jews are similar to southern Italians/Sicilian such as myself. Most of the calculators peg me as Southern Italian or Eastern Sicilian as my closest regions but after that I usually get a lot of North African Jewish, Sephardic Jewish or even ashkanazi jewish


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Yes. I definitely think Western Jews, Sicilians, Calabrese, and island Greeks are close.