Not a Cop's autosomal opus.

[Not a Cop]

Following text is a result of couple years of my interest in populational genetics, main purporse of it is to share my expereince of dealing with autosamal services and tools.




I'm lucky enough to live into my twenties having all of my grandparents alive, so i decided to test them all to get a clearer picture.


Grandparents ancestry:

1. P g-mother - Volkhovsky district of Leningrad oblast' for last 3 generations.

2. P g-father - 1\2 Baltic german with ancetry traces on all line down to Early 18 century, only german surnames so far. 1\4 Russian from Velikie Luki (Pskov Oblast') 1\4 Polish from Lakhva village (Southern Belarus).

3. M g-mother - 3\4 Russian, 1\4 Polish from Vilno.

4. M g-father - 1\2 Kursk, 1\2 Volga region Russian.


All of the following result will go in that order, with my results going last.

Ftdna results (should be noted that i haven't done a test, but transmitted my results from 23andme):

http://i.imgur.com/kqSWIjd.png
http://i.imgur.com/nWn6f1s.png
http://i.imgur.com/7fzMLGz.png
http://i.imgur.com/pxyEy3k.png
http://i.imgur.com/ERO9wN0.png


Ancient Origins:


http://i.imgur.com/9mD2KZf.png
http://i.imgur.com/MUiIZDu.png
http://i.imgur.com/wGmMJkI.png
http://i.imgur.com/a9Qp6jB.png
http://i.imgur.com/kra9r5q.png


Dna Land:


http://i.imgur.com/y550kOc.png
http://i.imgur.com/orFkFLr.png
http://i.imgur.com/5d1Wkqn.png
http://i.imgur.com/ucyR3uu.png
http://i.imgur.com/mpkiUs8.png



Eurogenes K15:


North_Sea 25.58
Atlantic 13.14
Baltic 26.78
Eastern_Euro 25.15
West_Med 1.83
West_Asian 1.87
East_Med -
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 1.46
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian 3.55
Amerindian 0.37
Oceanian -
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.26



1 North_Sea 28.89
2 Baltic 21.27
3 Atlantic 20.99
4 Eastern_Euro 14.03
5 West_Asian 6.29
6 West_Med 5.77
7 South_Asian 1.85
8 Amerindian 0.33
9 East_Med 0.31
10 Siberian 0.27


1 Baltic 27.98
2 Eastern_Euro 21.16
3 North_Sea 20.17
4 Atlantic 14.68
5 West_Med 5.37
6 West_Asian 5
7 Red_Sea 1.67
8 Siberian 1.51
9 Amerindian 1.35
10 Oceanian 1.1
11 East_Med 0.01


North_Sea 19.29
Atlantic 17.01
Baltic 30.97
Eastern_Euro 17.88
West_Med 2.74
West_Asian 7.50
East_Med -
Red_Sea 0.80
South_Asian 1.80
Southeast_Asian 0.19
Siberian 0.35
Amerindian 0.27
Oceanian 1.20
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -




North_Sea 25.39
Atlantic 13.11
Baltic 26.16
Eastern_Euro 20.41
West_Med 2.46
West_Asian 7.30
East_Med -
Red_Sea -
South_Asian 1.06
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian 1.68
Amerindian 1.71
Oceanian 0.60
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan 0.14

Average of 4 Grandparents:

North_Sea 25,39
Atlantic 13,11
Baltic 26,16
Eastern_Euro 20,41
West_Med 2,46
West_Asian 7,3
East_Med 0
Red_Sea 0
South_Asian 1,06
Southeast_Asian 0
Siberian 1,68
Amerindian 1,71
Oceanian 0,6
Northeast_African 0
Sub-Saharan 0,14


My 23andme:

http://i.imgur.com/baYAXqX.png





Conclusion:

1.23andme is best so far.

2.Out of all gedmatch calcs only Eurogenes K13 and 15 made sense regarding determining ancestry.

3. Ftdna sucks, especially for smaller parts of your ancestry.

4. Dnaland sucks aswell, but atleast they do it for free.

5. Exept for minor differences 4-gp average and my results on gedmatch are similar, so it's safe to say that it's fairly accurate.

6. Unlike common opinion Baltic Germans seem to be very little admixed with locals.

[Not a Cop]

If you want me to do any other test or anything using this results you are free to ask.

[Antimage]

baltic german = Prussian?

[Not a Cop]

baltic german = Prussian?

Not really, Baltic Germans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Germans) are Germans from Estonia and Latvia, former lands of Teutonic and Livonian orders.

[Karol Klačansky]

Why would you say "unlike common opinion Baltic Germans seem very little admixed with locals"?

He seems to have quite high rates of Eastern European compared to modern Germans from Germany. I mean I'm actually amazed he has as high western European rates that he does compared to Polish Germans I've seen, so he definitely has German ancestry but he still seems quite eastern.

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

[Not a Cop]

Why would you say "unlike common opinion Baltic Germans seem very little admixed with locals"?

He seems to have quite high rates of Eastern European compared to modern Germans from Germany. I mean I'm actually amazed he has as high western European rates that he does compared to Polish Germans I've seen, so he definitely has German ancestry but he still seems quite eastern.

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

Because he's only 1\2 Baltic German.

[Karol Klačansky]

Because he's only 1\2 Baltic German.
Sorry I went full retard on that one. His results are similar to mine as a 3/4 Slovak 1/4 American. Very interesting thread, it's a gift to have all four grandparents alive, I only can and have tested one grandparent.

[Enflamme]

I feel that the new FTDNA update indicates a minor origin of asia between 3 and 5% (according to people) to many people who do not have this origin; take a look at the results of people on Anthrogenetica ...

They say, it is true, that "FTDNA traces your origins over the past 2,000 years", but I think a bit like Petalpusher, that they say this as an excuse, they actually do not know why this indicates this kind of thing.

[Petalpusher]

Not really, Baltic Germans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_Germans) are Germans from Estonia and Latvia, former lands of Teutonic and Livonian orders.

Where do they come from initially? He scores a lot of west/central, from what i ve seen it's like the F&G of 23andme, with higher values.

[Leto]

4. M g-father - 1\2 Kursk, 1\2 Volga region Russian.
Post his Eurogenes K13 and Gedrosia K6.

[Not a Cop]

Where do they come from initially? He scores a lot of west/central, from what i ve seen it's like the F&G of 23andme, with higher values.

Well, it's hard to pinpoint any original founding population, German was more of a cultural term than ethnical, the whole thing got real as a result of Northern Crusades.

Overall Baltic Germans were highly tied with Hanseatic league during medieval times, and was under control of Sweden for a couple of centuries. In general their ethnic composition can be described as a North sea germanics, mainly low Germans+Dutch, but aslo Scandinavians in a big part, and British\French\High Germans in lower amounts.

I did a K15 mnote for him, and this are results:
"Lithuanian" 42.3
"West_Norwegian" 16.4
"Hinxton4" 15.65
"Hinxton3" 13.45
"Chechen" 4.8
"Gokhem2" 3.4
"Kalash" 2.5
"Estonian" 1.4
"Hinxton2" 0.05
"Norwegian" 0.05

He turns out very North-Seaish.

His K13 oracle:

1 54% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 46% Irish @ 1.4
2 55.4% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 44.6% West_Scottish @ 1.41
3 51.2% Danish + 48.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1.54
4 52.9% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 47.1% Orcadian @ 1.68
5 50.4% North_Dutch + 49.6% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1.75
6 55.8% North_German + 44.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1.82
7 54.1% Southwest_Russian + 45.9% Irish @ 1.87
8 51.5% Norwegian + 48.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1.94
9 54.6% North_German + 45.4% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.02
10 55.8% North_German + 44.2% Southwest_Russian @ 2.08
11 55.5% Southwest_Russian + 44.5% West_Scottish @ 2.1


Post his Eurogenes K13 and Gedrosia K6.

1 West_European_Hunter_Gartherer 43.14
2 Natufian 32.91
3 Ancestral_North_Eurasian 19.29
4 East_Asian 4.15
5 Ancestral_South_Eurasian 0.51


1 Baltic 45.49
2 North_Atlantic 26.58
3 West_Med 9.94
4 West_Asian 6.24
5 East_Med 3.59
6 Siberian 3
7 Red_Sea 2.26
8 Amerindian 1.58
9 Oceanian 1.33

59.9% Ukrainian_Lviv + 40.1% Kargopol_Russian @ 2.49
2 68.8% Ukrainian_Lviv + 31.2% Erzya @ 2.67
3 95.7% Russian_Smolensk + 4.3% Chukchi @ 2.68
4 84.2% Polish + 15.8% Chuvash @ 2.7
5 95.7% Russian_Smolensk + 4.3% East_Greenlander @ 2.76
6 95.9% Russian_Smolensk + 4.1% Koryak @ 2.79
7 72.8% Ukrainian_Lviv + 27.2% East_Finnish @ 2.82
8 95.1% Russian_Smolensk + 4.9% West_Greenlander @ 2.86
9 84.6% Russian_Smolensk + 15.4% Tatar @ 2.91
10 87.7% Polish + 12.3% Mari @ 2.91
11 69.8% Ukrainian_Lviv + 30.2% Lithuanian @ 2.92
12 51.8% Ukrainian_Lviv + 48.2% Estonian_Polish @ 3

[Leto]

3. M g-mother - 3\4 Russian, 1\4 Polish from Vilno.
Russian from Vilnius too? Can I have a look at her K13 as well?
Honestly, I don't use K15. K13, K10 and Gedrosia K6 (good for detecting mongoloid admixture) are the best to me. PuntDNAL15 is not bad either.

[Not a Cop]

Russian from Vilnius too? Can I have a look at her K13 as well?
Honestly, I don't use K15. K13, K10 and Gedrosia K6 (good for detecting mongoloid admixture) are the best to me. PuntDNAL15 is not bad either.

Polish from Vilnus.

K13 and k15 are almost the same, but i like the divison of Baltic and North-Atlantic futher.

North_Atlantic 27.88
Baltic 45.53
West_Med 7.79
West_Asian 8.90
East_Med 2.89
Red_Sea 1.40
South_Asian 1.91
East_Asian 0.50
Siberian 1.23
Amerindian 0.48
Oceanian 1.48
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

[Leto]

Polish from Vilnus.
And where is the Russian part from?

[Not a Cop]

And where is the Russian part from?

I don't know yet, her ancestors were from kupechestvo and were very mobile.

[Karol Klačansky]

Can you share your half Baltic german grandfathers dodecad v3 results?

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

[Not a Cop]

Can you share your half Baltic german grandfathers dodecad v3 results?

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk


# Population Percent
1 West_European 44.27
2 East_European 25.87
3 Mediterranean 18.51
4 West_Asian 8.91
5 Northeast_Asian 1.26
6 South_Asian 0.53
7 Southwest_Asian 0.39
8 Northwest_African 0.27


54.1% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) + 45.9% Mixed_Germanic (Dodecad) @ 1.99
2 54.2% N._European (Xing) + 45.8% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 2.48
3 71.5% Slovenian (Xing) + 28.5% FIN (1000Genomes) @ 2.49
4 53.9% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 46.1% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) @ 2.5
5 76.1% Slovenian (Xing) + 23.9% Finnish (Dodecad) @ 2.61
6 59.3% Argyll (1000 Genomes) + 40.7% Russian (Dodecad) @ 2.71
7 55.9% Mixed_Slav (Dodecad) + 44.1% Dutch (Dodecad) @ 2.76
8 59.5% N._European (Xing) + 40.5% Russian (Dodecad) @ 2.8

[Peterski]

Do your grandparents with 1/4 Polish ancestry have any close Polish matches?

[Not a Cop]

Do your grandparents with 1/4 Polish ancestry have any close Polish matches?

None of them have any really close matches, couple in 70-80 cm but nothing more.

1\4 Vilno Grandma matches: 458 total, 30 -ski, 22 -ius.

Grandad - 980 matches, 66 -ski.

[Aren]

Well, it's hard to pinpoint any original founding population, German was more of a cultural term than ethnical, the whole thing got real as a result of Northern Crusades.

Overall Baltic Germans were highly tied with Hanseatic league during medieval times, and was under control of Sweden for a couple of centuries. In general their ethnic composition can be described as a North sea germanics, mainly low Germans+Dutch, but aslo Scandinavians in a big part, and British\French\High Germans in lower amounts.

I did a K15 mnote for him, and this are results:
"Lithuanian" 42.3
"West_Norwegian" 16.4
"Hinxton4" 15.65
"Hinxton3" 13.45
"Chechen" 4.8
"Gokhem2" 3.4
"Kalash" 2.5
"Estonian" 1.4
"Hinxton2" 0.05
"Norwegian" 0.05

He turns out very North-Seaish.

His K13 oracle:

1 54% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 46% Irish @ 1.4
2 55.4% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 44.6% West_Scottish @ 1.41
3 51.2% Danish + 48.8% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1.54
4 52.9% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 47.1% Orcadian @ 1.68
5 50.4% North_Dutch + 49.6% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1.75
6 55.8% North_German + 44.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1.82
7 54.1% Southwest_Russian + 45.9% Irish @ 1.87
8 51.5% Norwegian + 48.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 1.94
9 54.6% North_German + 45.4% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.02
10 55.8% North_German + 44.2% Southwest_Russian @ 2.08
11 55.5% Southwest_Russian + 44.5% West_Scottish @ 2.1


I might have mentioned this before to you but I'm really surpised of how Western your grandfather is. His German side must've been basically pure Northern German. I was not expecting such an old community as the Baltic Germans not to have mixed with the locals. This is in contrast with Estonian Swedes who although are more Scandinavian than Finland-Swedes they are still considerably Eastern shifted.

[Not a Cop]

I might have mentioned this before to you but I'm really surpised of how Western your grandfather is. His German side must've been basically pure Northern German. I was not expecting such an old community as the Baltic Germans not to have mixed with the locals. This is in contrast with Estonian Swedes who although are more Scandinavian than Finland-Swedes they are still considerably Eastern shifted.

From what i understand Estonian Swedes were much more peasantish, while Germans were city-dwellers, i guess that played a role. Also where was an announcement on a papaer on Baltic Germans and it was stated that most samples were unmixed.

[Congolese Rice]

Aye man, try out MyGenomeBox. It's not good for european populations (because it gives me more south european than north or western, which is SUPER weird)

but it should give you good general percentages.


It gave me 54.14% european, and 41.72% african.

[Peterski]

From what i understand Estonian Swedes were much more peasantish, while Germans were city-dwellers, i guess that played a role. Also where was an announcement on a papaer on Baltic Germans and it was stated that most samples were unmixed.

And the number of Swedes was small, 4 thousand in 1795 according to Kabuzan.

Scans from Stanisław Plater's "Geography of Eastern Europe", published in 1825:

Ethnic Structure of Livonian Governorate ca. 1820:

Germans, Nobles & Townsmen - 50,000
Russians, Townsmen - 10,000
Latvians, Peasants - 340,000
Estonians, Peasants - 300,000

https://i.imgur.com/VaNZN5l.png

Ethnic Structure of Estonian Governorate ca. 1820:

Germans, Nobles & Townsmen - 20,000
Russians, Townsmen - 10,000
Estonians, Peasants - 270,000

https://i.imgur.com/H8acS2e.png

Ethnic structure of Pribaltika - Courland, Livonian & Estonian Governorates - in 1795:
(according to Kabuzan's "Nations of Russia..." published in Moscow in year 1990)

Numbers in thousands:

https://i.imgur.com/IwCMT6Z.png

Ethnic structure of the Duchy of Courland with the District of Pilten (today Southern Latvia), which was Poland's fiefdom, in 1795 (estimates based on Kabuzan's 1990 "Nations of Russia..." and Stanisław Plater's 1825 "Geography of Eastern Europe..."):

- ca. 360,000 Latvians
- ca. 50,000 Germans (this is high estimate, I've seen lower ones too)
- up to 20,000 Poles (also high estimate, could be closer to 10,000)
- ca. 10,000 Jews (later during the 1800s percent of Jews increased)
- ca. 10,000 Lithuanians

Poles in Courland were mainly concentrated in its eastern part around Ilukste and Daugavpils.

Duchy of Courland later became Courland Governorate of the Russian Empire. Courland had the highest % of Germans out of all "Pribaltika" (which included also Livonian Governorate and Estonian Governorate). In late 1790s and early 1800s the capital of Courland - Mitawa (Mitau) - had about 9,000 - 12,000 inhabitants of which half were Germans, 1/4 - 1/3 Jews and the rest mostly Latvians.

Mitawa had 7 churches (3 German Lutheran, 1 Latvian Lutheran, 1 Calvinist, 1 Roman Catholic, 1 Greek Catholic ) and 2 synagogues:

https://i.imgur.com/ZJogDFa.png

^^^ According to Plater.

And Vitebsk Governorate (today divided between Belarus and Latvia) according to Plater:

Poles, Nobles & Townsmen - 30,000
Belarusians, Peasants - 500,000
Latvians, Peasants - 120,000
Russians, Peasants - 30,000
Jews - 120,000

By religion:

Roman Catholics - 150,000 (Poles & Latvians)
Greek Uniates - 400,000 (Belarusians)
Greek Orientalists - 100,000 (Belarusians)
Old Believers - 30,000 (Russians)
Israelites - 120,000 (Jews)

https://i.imgur.com/Lv0tzVu.png

[Aren]

From what i understand Estonian Swedes were much more peasantish, while Germans were city-dwellers, i guess that played a role. Also where was an announcement on a papaer on Baltic Germans and it was stated that most samples were unmixed.

Very true, also the Estonian Swedes were not numerous at all.
Here are some Estonian Swedes I found on Gedmatch.

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 43.42
2 Baltic 36.78
3 West_Med 8.99
4 West_Asian 5.18
5 Siberian 1.51
6 Oceanian 1.37
7 Red_Sea 1.2
8 Amerindian 0.96
9 South_Asian 0.59

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Swedish 3.43
2 Swedish 6.97
3 Southwest_Finnish 8.99
4 North_German 10.12
5 Norwegian 10.2
6 East_German 10.31
7 Danish 11.49
8 North_Dutch 11.64
9 Austrian 12.24
10 South_Polish 13.47
11 Orcadian 13.59
12 Irish 14.22
13 Polish 14.22
14 Hungarian 14.35
15 Finnish 14.49
16 Southeast_English 15
17 West_Scottish 15.08
18 Ukrainian_Lviv 15.68
19 West_German 15.7
20 Estonian 15.76

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 70% Swedish + 30% Estonian @ 1.87
2 52.6% Irish + 47.4% Estonian @ 1.92
3 74.8% Swedish + 25.2% Lithuanian @ 1.96
4 51.1% West_Scottish + 48.9% Estonian @ 2.1
5 61% Norwegian + 39% Estonian @ 2.19
6 57.7% North_Dutch + 42.3% Estonian @ 2.28
7 66.6% Norwegian + 33.4% Lithuanian @ 2.32
8 72.3% Swedish + 27.7% Russian_Smolensk @ 2.44
9 73% Swedish + 27% Estonian_Polish @ 2.5
10 75.3% Swedish + 24.7% Kargopol_Russian @ 2.52
11 68.7% Swedish + 31.3% Finnish @ 2.53
12 57.1% West_Scottish + 42.9% Lithuanian @ 2.53
13 72.4% Swedish + 27.6% Belorussian @ 2.56
14 73.5% Swedish + 26.5% East_Finnish @ 2.58
15 57.1% Swedish + 42.9% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.63
16 58.6% Irish + 41.4% Lithuanian @ 2.65
17 53.8% Orcadian + 46.2% Estonian @ 2.67
18 78.7% Swedish + 21.3% Erzya @ 2.68
19 50.5% Irish + 49.5% Finnish @ 2.72
20 68.5% Swedish + 31.5% Polish @ 2.73

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 42.67
2 Baltic 39.8
3 West_Med 7.72
4 West_Asian 6.12
5 Siberian 1.77
6 Amerindian 1.33
7 Oceanian 0.52
8 Sub-Saharan 0.07

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Swedish 4.95
2 Southwest_Finnish 7.06
3 Swedish 9.58
4 East_German 11.91
5 Finnish 12.21
6 South_Polish 12.4
7 Polish 12.63
8 Norwegian 12.67
9 North_German 12.73
10 Estonian 13.31
11 Austrian 13.99
12 Danish 14.13
13 North_Dutch 14.36
14 Ukrainian 14.8
15 Ukrainian_Lviv 14.84
16 Hungarian 15.21
17 Belorussian 15.23
18 Russian_Smolensk 15.32
19 Estonian_Polish 15.92
20 East_Finnish 16.06

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 51.3% Norwegian + 48.7% Estonian @ 2.33
2 58.5% Swedish + 41.5% Estonian @ 2.4
3 58.3% Norwegian + 41.7% Lithuanian @ 2.69
4 65.4% Swedish + 34.6% Lithuanian @ 2.7
5 56.3% Estonian + 43.7% Irish @ 2.87
6 52% Estonian + 48% North_Dutch @ 3.02
7 57.6% Estonian + 42.4% West_Scottish @ 3.04
8 56.7% Swedish + 43.3% Finnish @ 3.27
9 51.6% Estonian + 48.4% Danish @ 3.3
10 82.6% North_Swedish + 17.4% Lithuanian @ 3.38
11 51% Finnish + 49% Norwegian @ 3.39
12 59.2% Southwest_Finnish + 40.8% Swedish @ 3.5
13 55.5% Estonian + 44.5% Orcadian @ 3.5
14 81.3% North_Swedish + 18.7% Russian_Smolensk @ 3.57
15 78% North_Swedish + 22% Polish @ 3.58
16 79% North_Swedish + 21% Estonian @ 3.59
17 83% North_Swedish + 17% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 3.6
18 50.4% Lithuanian + 49.6% West_Scottish @ 3.65
19 51.2% North_German + 48.8% Estonian @ 3.66
20 66.8% Southwest_Finnish + 33.2% Norwegian @ 3.67

[Peterski]

Here are some Estonian Swedes I found on Gedmatch.

Are you sure that they score North Swedish due to being mixed with Estonians?

Maybe they originated in Northern Sweden or Swedish part of Finland and came to Estonia from there.


an announcement on a papaer on Baltic Germans and it was stated that most samples were unmixed.

Yeah but those were Medieval ancient DNA samples, not modern descendants of Baltic Germans.

[Aren]

Are you sure that they score North Swedish due to being mixed with Estonians?

Maybe they just originated in Northern Sweden and came to Estonia from there.

Usually Northern Swedes get Norwegian + Finnish in mixed mode and Estonian or Lithuanian rarely shows up. I think they truly are Estonian + Swedish since the community in Ösel and Ormsö(this is btw where both of these two come from) is very old, from the 13th century. This would predate the Finnish admixture in Eastern and Northern Sweden. And also they most likely are descendants of Swedes from Eastern Svealand, not Northern Swedes.

[Not a Cop]

Usually Northern Swedes get Norwegian + Finnish in mixed mode and Estonian or Lithuanian rarely shows up. I think they truly are Estonian + Swedish since the community in Ösel and Ormsö(this is btw where both of these two come from) is very old, from the 13th century. This would predate the Finnish admixture in Eastern and Northern Sweden. And also they most likely are descendants of Swedes from Eastern Svealand, not Northern Swedes.

Their dialect is same as Finno-Swedish though.

[Aren]

K36 is really good at differentiating Balts from Finns.

This is the first Estonian Swede I posted, she gets in the mixed mode: 61% Norwegian + 39% Estonian @ 2.19

Norwegians and South Swedes(a proxy for Eastern Swedes before the Finnish admixture) score an average of 17% Fennoscandian with K36, Estonians around 34%

So 0,4 x 34 + 0,6 x 17 = 23.8 Fennoscandia. Very close to what she scores

Her K36

Population
Amerindian -
Arabian -
Armenian -
Basque 1.55
Central_African -
Central_Euro 8.31
East_African -
East_Asian -
East_Balkan 0.09
East_Central_Asian -
East_Central_Euro 12.85
East_Med -
Eastern_Euro 8.26
Fennoscandian 24.39
French 4.02
Iberian 7.70
Indo-Chinese -
Italian 0.09
Malayan -
Near_Eastern -
North_African -
North_Atlantic 12.80
North_Caucasian 2.10
North_Sea 16.58
Northeast_African -
Oceanian 0.34
Omotic -
Pygmy -
Siberian -
South_Asian -
South_Central_Asian -
South_Chinese -
Volga-Ural 0.92
West_African -
West_Caucasian -
West_Med -

Northern Swedes score significantly more, around 28-30% even though she's really close to the Northern Swedish on Eurogenes K13.

[Peterski]

I wonder about genetics of Poles from Livonia and Courland considering that many of them were descended from Polonized Baltic Germans (families such as Plater, Anders, Manteuffel, Traugutt, etc.). But they could also be mixed with local Non-Germans.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emilia_Plater

"Countess Emilia Plater (Broel-Plater, Lithuanian: Emilija Pliaterytė; 13 November 1806 – 23 December 1831) was a noblewoman and revolutionary[1] from the lands of the partitioned Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth.[2][3][4] Raised in a patriotic tradition, she fought in the November 1830 Uprising, during which she raised a small unit, participated in several engagements, and received the rank of captain in the Polish insurgent forces. (...) Emilia Plater was born in Vilnius into a noble Polish–Lithuanian Plater family.[6] Her family, of the Plater coat of arms,[6] traced its roots to Westphalia, but was thoroughly Polonized.[7]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W%C5%82adys%C5%82aw_Anders

"Władysław Albert Anders (11 August 1892 – 12 May 1970) was a general in the Polish Army and later in life a politician and prominent member of the Polish government-in-exile in London[1]."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romuald_Traugutt

"Romuald Traugutt (16 January 1826 – 5 August 1864) was a Polish general and war hero best known for commanding the January Uprising of 1863. From October 1863 to August 1864 he was the leader of the insurrection. He headed the Polish national government from 17 October 1863 to 20 April 1864, and was president of its Foreign Affairs Office."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_Manteuffel

"Tadeusz Manteuffel or Tadeusz Manteuffel-Szoege (1902–1970) was a Polish historian, specializing in the medieval history of Europe. Manteuffel was born in Rēzekne, Vitebsk Governorate, Russian Empire (now Latvia). His brothers were Leon Manteuffel-Szoege and Edward Manteuffel-Szoege. He lost his right hand in the Polish-Soviet War in 1920, when he took part in the defence of Warsaw."

[Peterski]

About Polish minority in Latvia:

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=64009&st=0

Translation of one fragment:

"The presence of Poles in Latvia began in 1562, when the Duchy of Courland-Semigalia became a fiefdom of the Kingdom of Poland. In that moment started immigration of ethnic Poles to Latvia, as well as Polonization of local nobility of German descent, later also Polonization of Latvians and Belarusians. Interestingly, Latvian peasants from Swedish Livonia used to call their kinsmen, ethnic Latvians from Polish Livonia, 'Poles' (...)".

Latvian census of 1934 counted 59,374 Poles - which was 3.1% of the population of Latvia:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?259610-Polish-communities-in-Eastern-Europe

Census of 1934 counted 1,608 Poles in Estonia, fewer than census of 1897 (around 2,000).

[Peterski]

Interestingly one guy from Estonia just wrote on Eupedia that he is R1b-L617, which is the same subclade as mine.

I know that there are also families in Lithuania, with Polish-sounding surnames, who belong to my subclade of R1b.

[Aren]

Their dialect is same as Finno-Swedish though.

No not at all.

The man in the beggning is speaking Finland-Swedish, the Estonian Swedish woman starts speaking around 4:10. I think the difference is quite striking even if you're not a Swedish speaker

https://svenska.yle.fi/artikel/2010/04/06/estlandssvenskar-pa-ormso-1989

[Maintenance]

No not at all.

The man in the beggning is speaking Finland-Swedish, the Estonian Swedish woman starts speaking around 4:10. I think the difference is quite striking even if you're not a Swedish speaker

https://svenska.yle.fi/artikel/2010/04/06/estlandssvenskar-pa-ormso-1989

That woman had a pretty solid normal swedish accent.

[Aren]

That woman had a pretty solid normal swedish accent.

Indeed pretty easy to understand.

[Peterski]

It is ironic how both Danes and Swedes were more involved in Wendish and Livonian Crusades than Germans, but in the end they had no demographic potential to actually establish themselves in these regions. Any Danish or Swedish settlers who came to Pomerania and Livonia eventually became Germanized (except for those small Swedish communities in Estonia which persisted until the 20th century).

[Not a Cop]

No not at all.

The man in the beggning is speaking Finland-Swedish, the Estonian Swedish woman starts speaking around 4:10. I think the difference is quite striking even if you're not a Swedish speaker

https://svenska.yle.fi/artikel/2010/04/06/estlandssvenskar-pa-ormso-1989

Maybe, i have no knowledge of Swedish, just was basing on maps etc.

[Peterski]

Have they updated your 23andMe results?

[War Chef]

Eurogenes k15 sucks at picking up your P g-father's German ancestry. That North Sea and Atlantic should be elevated.

[Peterski]

Eurogenes k15 sucks at picking up your P g-father's German ancestry. That North Sea and Atlantic should be elevated.

It is elevated, 29% North Sea and 21% Atlantic. Also West Med is high.

[War Chef]

It is elevated, 29% North Sea and 21% Atlantic. Also West Med is high.

But compare with his other 3 non-German grandparents, it's not such a big difference:

North_Sea 19.29
Atlantic 17.01

North_Sea 20.17
Atlantic 14.68

North_Sea 25.58
Atlantic 13.14

Most likely N-W Russians have a lot of Varangian ancestry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardarike_runestones).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardarike_runestones

[Dick]

Nice thread OP

[Peterski]

Have you seen this data?:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?291452-Ethnic-Structure-of-Finland-Estonia-Latvia-in-1834-1861-German-data

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?260058-Ethnic-Structure-of-Latvia-and-Estonia-ca-1800

[Not a Cop]

Have they updated your 23andMe results?

Yes,

https://i.imgur.com/JZxcZIh.png


Eurogenes k15 sucks at picking up your P g-father's German ancestry. That North Sea and Atlantic should be elevated.

It does well in oracle

1 53.5% North_Dutch + 46.5% Ukrainian_Belgorod @ 2.72
2 53.2% Ukrainian_Belgorod + 46.8% Orcadian @ 2.79
3 64.3% South_Polish + 35.7% Orcadian @ 2.87
4 57.9% South_Polish + 42.1% North_Dutch @ 2.91
5 53.4% North_Dutch + 46.6% Southwest_Russian @ 3.1
6 57.6% South_Polish + 42.4% Danish @ 3.13
7 51.5% North_German + 48.5% Ukrainian @ 3.16
8 52% South_Polish + 48% North_German @ 3.21
9 51.2% North_Dutch + 48.8% Russian_Smolensk @ 3.22
10 53.5% Southwest_Russian + 46.5% Orcadian @ 3.22



Have you seen this data?:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?291452-Ethnic-Structure-of-Finland-Estonia-Latvia-in-1834-1861-German-data

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?260058-Ethnic-Structure-of-Latvia-and-Estonia-ca-1800

I've seen similar stuff.

[Peterski]

Yes,

https://i.imgur.com/JZxcZIh.png

Only 1.7% French and German? That is less than you should have. You should have about 12.5% (your grandfather is 50%, divided by 4).

Here is mine for comparison: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?292829-Peterski-s-23andMe-results

Edit:

I guess Broadly NW is German too (but it can also be related to your previously reported Finnish, since they count Finland as NW Euro...).

[Not a Cop]

Only 1.7% French and German? That is less than you should have. You should have about 12.5% (your grandfather is 50%, divided by 4).

Here is mine for comparison: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?292829-Peterski-s-23andMe-results

Edit:

I guess Broadly NW is German too (but it can also be related to your previously reported Finnish, since they count Finland as NW Euro...).

I guess i can have a bit lower german due to recombination, but yeah, previous estimation of 14.3 of total NW was far more plausable.

[Peterski]

I guess i can have a bit lower german due to recombination

Yes but also they tend to (according to Kurd) underestimate old ancestries due to their methodology:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?208811-Does-23andme-overestimate-major-components-whilst-underestimating-minority-components

But great-grandparent is not that old.

[Not a Cop]

Yes but also they tend to (according to Kurd) underestimate old ancestries due to their methodology:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?208811-Does-23andme-overestimate-major-components-whilst-underestimating-minority-components

But great-grandparent is not that old.

Well yeah, i guess that something like this has happened, or they have pushed boundries of EE a bit futher to west.

[Peterski]

Well yeah, i guess that something like this has happened, or they have pushed boundries of EE a bit futher to west.

If you test your grandfather (the 1/2 Baltic German one) with 23andMe I wonder what regions would they give him for his "French and German".

After all, Baltic Germans lived for several centuries in the Baltic area, they were disconnected from Germany "proper" for longer than 500 years.

Maybe he would get something like: "although we detected 50% French and German in your DNA, we cannot assign countries/regions to it" ???

This is what happened with my "Greek and Balkan":

https://i.imgur.com/KPsnln6.png

^^^
Maybe Baltic Germans would get something like this for their "French and German" (because they were in Latvia/Estonia for ca. 700 years)?

[Not a Cop]

If you test your grandfather (the 1/2 Baltic German one) with 23andMe I wonder what regions would they give him for his "French and German".

After all, Baltic Germans lived for several centuries in the Baltic area, they were disconnected from Germany "proper" for longer than 500 years.

Maybe he would get something like: "although we detected 50% French and German in your DNA, we cannot assign countries/regions to it" ???

This is what happened with my "Greek and Balkan":

https://i.imgur.com/KPsnln6.png

^^^
Maybe Baltic Germans would get something like this for their "French and German" (because they were in Latvia/Estonia for ca. 700 years)?

Well there have been a constant flow of other europeans, i know for shure about German from Volynia, Scottish, Dutch and Swedish ancestry on Baltic German side in XIX and XVIII, so i guess some regions may be more or less correct.


But as of now it's hard to test with 23andme, i tried two times but they have turned down my package as it was tracked back to Russia.

[Leto]

I would like you to add the K23b results of all four gps.

[Not a Cop]

I would like you to add the K23b results of all four gps.

1. P g-mother - Volkhovsky district of Leningrad oblast' for last 3 generations.

2. P g-father - 1\2 Baltic german with ancetry traces on all line down to Early 18 century, only german surnames so far. 1\4 Russian from Velikie Luki (Pskov Oblast') 1\4 Polish from Lakhva village (Southern Belarus).

3. M g-mother - 3\4 Russian, 1\4 Polish from Vilno.

4. M g-father - 1\2 Kursk, 1\2 Volga region Russian.


1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 54.93
2 Caucasian 25.57
3 European_Early_Farmers 6.39
4 Ancestral_Altaic 4.15
5 East_Siberian 3.61
6 South_Indian 1.95
7 South_Central_Asian 1.02
8 Arctic 0.9
9 Austronesian 0.78
10 South_East_Asian 0.3
11 Archaic_African 0.28
12 North_African 0.12

1 Russian-Upper-Volga ( ) 3.1
2 Balt ( ) 3.74
3 Russian-North-West ( ) 3.82
4 Russian_Meshtchyora ( ) 3.93
5 Russian-West ( ) 4.1
6 Russian_North ( ) 4.13
7 Moksha ( ) 4.37
8 Estonian ( ) 4.86
9 Latvian ( ) 4.97
10 Russian_Vologda ( ) 5.07

1 54.1% Pole ( ) + 45.9% Russian-Ural ( ) @ 2.13
2 63% Belarusian_South ( ) + 37% Russian-Ural ( ) @ 2.18
3 71.7% Russian_Vologda ( ) + 28.3% Czech ( ) @ 2.2
4 59.4% Pole ( ) + 40.6% Finn_East ( ) @ 2.23
5 61.5% Russian_Vologda ( ) + 38.5% Sorb ( ) @ 2.24
6 50.8% Russian-North ( ) + 49.2% Belarusian-East ( ) @ 2.24
7 59.6% Russian-North-West ( ) + 40.4% Russian_Vologda ( ) @ 2.26
8 64.7% Russian_Vologda ( ) + 35.3% Kashub ( ) @ 2.26
9 59.3% Pole ( ) + 40.7% Finnish-East ( ) @ 2.27
10 67.9% Belarusian_South ( ) + 32.1% Finnish-East ( ) @ 2.3


1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 48
2 Caucasian 27.52
3 European_Early_Farmers 13.7
4 South_Central_Asian 4.28
5 Ancestral_Altaic 3.96
6 African_Pygmy 0.65
7 East_Siberian 0.57
8 Austronesian 0.37
9 South_Indian 0.32
10 Melano_Polynesian 0.31
11 Archaic_Human 0.21
12 Amerindian 0.14

1 Kashub ( ) 2.84
2 Slovak ( ) 3.46
3 Sorb ( ) 4.39
4 Czech ( ) 4.41
5 Ukrainian_West ( ) 5.28

1 70.6% Ukrainian_East ( ) + 29.4% Frisian ( ) @ 1.83
2 71.9% Ukrainian_East ( ) + 28.1% Irish ( ) @ 1.93
3 66.3% Ukrainian_East ( ) + 33.7% Dutch ( ) @ 1.96
4 72.6% Ukrainian_Center ( ) + 27.4% Irish ( ) @ 2.19
5 88.3% German ( ) + 11.7% North_Ossetian ( ) @ 2.2



1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 51.25
2 Caucasian 26.44
3 European_Early_Farmers 10.47
4 South_Central_Asian 2.95
5 Ancestral_Altaic 2.72
6 Near_East 1.43
7 South_Indian 1.29
8 Paleo_Siberian 0.97
9 Melano_Polynesian 0.71
10 South_East_Asian 0.49
11 Arctic 0.44
12 East_Siberian 0.38
13 Amerindian 0.33
14 Subsaharian 0.13


1 Sorb ( ) 2.95
2 Russian-North-West ( ) 3.27
3 Kashub ( ) 3.38
4 Russian-West ( ) 3.7
5 Russian_Meshtchyora ( ) 4.44
6 Russian_North ( ) 4.48
7 Slovak ( ) 4.81
8 Belarusian_West ( ) 4.84
9 Belarusian-East ( ) 4.91
10 Russian_South ( ) 5.06

1 85.3% Russian_South ( ) + 14.7% Scottish_Argyll_Bute_GBR ( ) @ 1.55
2 83.9% Russian_South ( ) + 16.1% Norwegian_West ( ) @ 1.57
3 86% Russian_South ( ) + 14% Orcadian ( ) @ 1.57
4 84.2% Russian_South ( ) + 15.8% Icelandic ( ) @ 1.58
5 59.2% Russian_South ( ) + 40.8% German ( ) @ 1.62
6 79.6% Russian_South ( ) + 20.4% Swede ( ) @ 1.62
7 84.7% Russian_South ( ) + 15.3% CEU ( ) @ 1.64
8 66.3% Ukrainian ( ) + 33.7% Swede_Saami ( ) @ 1.66
9 81.7% Russian_South ( ) + 18.3% Norwegian_East ( ) @ 1.66
10 72.8% Belarusian_South ( ) + 27.2% Dutch ( ) @ 1.66


1 European_Hunters_Gatherers 48.28
2 Caucasian 26.92
3 European_Early_Farmers 11.13
4 Ancestral_Altaic 4.65
5 Near_East 1.6
6 Amerindian 1.16
7 South_Central_Asian 1.01
8 Australoid 0.94
9 Arctic 0.92
10 North_African 0.9
11 South_East_Asian 0.9
12 Melano_Polynesian 0.89
13 East_Siberian 0.46
14 Tungus-Altaic 0.18
15 African_Pygmy 0.07

1 Sorb ( ) 3.46
2 Kashub ( ) 3.88
3 Russian-West ( ) 4.51
4 Slovak ( ) 4.67
5 Russian-North-West ( ) 4.77
6 Ukrainian_West ( ) 4.89
7 Belarusian-East ( ) 5.06
8 Russian_North ( ) 5.1
9 Belarusian_West ( ) 5.52
10 Russian_South ( ) 5.65

1 80.8% Belarusian-East ( ) + 19.2% Swede ( ) @ 2.42
2 80.1% Balt ( ) + 19.9% Italian_Piedmont ( ) @ 2.43
3 85.1% Belarusian-East ( ) + 14.9% Norwegian_West ( ) @ 2.49
4 79.5% Belarusian-East ( ) + 20.5% Dane ( ) @ 2.49
5 85.3% Belarusian-East ( ) + 14.7% English_Kent_GBR ( ) @ 2.53
6 94.6% Belarusian-East ( ) + 5.4% Basque_Spanish ( ) @ 2.53
7 82.7% Belarusian-East ( ) + 17.3% Belgian ( ) @ 2.53
8 94.7% Belarusian-East ( ) + 5.3% Basque_French ( ) @ 2.53
9 86.1% Belarusian-East ( ) + 13.9% British ( ) @ 2.54
10 74.6% Russian-West ( ) + 25.4% Austrian ( ) @ 2.54

[Leto]

1. P g-mother - Volkhovsky district of Leningrad oblast' for last 3 generations.

You also said Verkhny Volochyok.

I think you're almost pan-Russian minus German ancestry (and the Terminator look :D).
By the way, Lakhva is not mentioned as a Polish settlement on Wikipedia. It's in the east of Brest oblast, there's few Poles over there.

[Peterski]

By the way, Lakhva is not mentioned as a Polish settlement on Wikipedia. It's in the east of Brest oblast, there's few Poles over there.

Maybe not now, but before WW2 there were much more Poles in Belarus, most of whom got deported to the west of Curzon Line after the war.

Some famous (enough to get their own Wikipedia entry) Poles were born there:

https://pl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_Rewaj - born in Lakhva in 1931, later after WW2 lived in Szczecin

https://pl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Hutten-Czapski - born in Lakhva in 1816

Wikipedia says there was a Catholic church in Lakhva so the number of Poles had to be significant. Now it is probably Orthodox church, right?

=====

Before 1939 Lakhva was in Łuniniec (Luninets) county of Poland. According to the census of 1931, the whole county had 108,663 inhabitants:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Woj.poleskie-Polska_spis_powszechny_1931.pdf

- 16,535 Poles
- 7,811 Jews
- 80,323 "Locals" ("Tutejsi" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tutejszy) or Poleshuks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poleshuks))
- 2,850 Belarusians
- 596 Russians
- 264 Ukrainians
- 185 Germans
- 2 Czechs
- 2 Lithuanians
- 41 others
- 54 not reported

[Leto]

Maybe not now, but before WW2 there were much more Poles in Belarus, most of whom got deported to the west of Curzon Line after the war.

Some famous (enough to get their own Wikipedia entry) Poles were born there:

https://pl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tadeusz_Rewaj - born in Lakhva in 1931, later after WW2 lived in Szczecin

https://pl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marian_Hutten-Czapski - born in Lakhva in 1816

Wikipedia says there was a Catholic church in Lakhva so the number of Poles had to be significant. Now it is probably Orthodox church, right?

=====

Before 1939 Lakhva was in Łuniniec (Luninets) county of Poland. According to the census of 1931, the whole county had 108,663 inhabitants:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/Woj.poleskie-Polska_spis_powszechny_1931.pdf

- 16,535 Poles
- 7,811 Jews
- 80,323 "Locals" ("Tutejsi" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tutejszy) or Poleshuks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poleshuks))
- 2,850 Belarusians
- 596 Russians
- 264 Ukrainians
- 185 Germans
- 2 Czechs
- 2 Lithuanians
- 41 others
- 54 not reported
Good information.

[Peterski]

Lakhva has its entry in "Geographical Dictionary of the Kingdom of Poland and other Slavic Countries" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geographical_Dictionary_of_the_Kingdom_of_Poland):

http://dir.icm.edu.pl/Slownik_geograficzny/Tom_V/566 - pages 566-567

https://i.imgur.com/d9dgbyS.png

https://i.imgur.com/R4SPu7A.png

[Peterski]

Good information.

Poleshuks are a subgroup of Belarusians or a group intermediate between Ukrainians and Belarusians?

[Leto]

Poleshuks are a subgroup of Belarusians or a group intermediate between Ukrainians and Belarusians?
They're considered Belarusian in the RB.

[Not a Cop]

You also said Verkhny Volochyok.

I think you're almost pan-Russian minus German ancestry (and the Terminator look :D).
By the way, Lakhva is not mentioned as a Polish settlement on Wikipedia. It's in the east of Brest oblast, there's few Poles over there.

Yeah, i forgot to change the description.

As for my pan-russianness i guess I have to agree, although being part german is also nothing surpring in Russia IMO.