Greek financial crisis

[TheForeigner]

I am asking both Greeks and non-Grreeks who are well informed, what has caused the Greek crisis an why is it not over?

[Laberia]

In few words, because the Greeks have spent the money of the next thirty years.
There are also other reasons that will be mention here from other users. Someone will try to exaggerate and others will try to minimize.

[Egyptian]

In few words, because the Greeks have spent the money of the next thirty years.


how so ? explain.

[brennus dux gallorum]

I am asking both Greeks and non-Grreeks who are well informed, what has caused the Greek crisis an why is it not over?

Because of the inability of Greece to compete with countries that established strong economies through stealing 3rd world's wealth, or other countries that have received debt relief 5 times in their history, like Germany, or with countries which have not gone to war for 5 centuries, like Scandinavians

The only sure is that crisis is global, not Greek exclusively, it gets worst for most of the planet, and for sure corruption in Greece is another reason for Greek debt in particular

BTW how can you ask a non-greek for something like that?

[Laberia]

how so ? explain.


The Greek government-debt crisis (also known as the Greek Depression)[2][3][4] is the sovereign debt crisis faced by Greece in the aftermath of the financial crisis of 2007–08. The Greek crisis started in late 2009, triggered by the turmoil of the Great Recession, structural weaknesses in the Greek economy, and revelations that previous data on government debt levels and deficits had been undercounted by the Greek government.[5][6][7]

Causes
In January 2010, the Greek Ministry of Finance published Stability and Growth Program 2010.[16] The report listed five main causes, poor GDP growth, government debt and deficits, budget compliance and data compatibility. Causes found by others included excess government spending, current account deficits and tax avoidance.

[TheForeigner]

BTW how can you ask a non-greek for something like that?[/QUOTE]

Well informed individuals can be of different nationalities.

[Laberia]

Raine, you stupid creature at least explain your thumb down.

[wvwvw]

In few words, because the Greeks have spent the money of the next thirty years.
There are also other reasons that will be mention here from other users. Someone will try to exaggerate and others will try to minimize.

Greece's borrowing before the crisis was below the EU average. The whole world lives in fact on borrowed money, Netherlands, Belgium's, Italy's USA's debts are unsustainable. Virtually every Western country lives on borrowed money, and they are not growing enough to pay back the interests of their loans. It is also agreed by top economists, that these countries will have to default. Greece is simply the top of the iceberg, and part of her problems have to do with the faulty design of the monetary union. Biggest part of her problems are incompetent politicians.

[wvwvw]

11.02.10Monthly Review Press

by Rick Wolff
Global capitalism imploded in 2007. The central causes of capitalism's crisis include:

• the end of real wage increases in the US and the substitution of rising worker debt far beyond what workers could sustain;
• the buildup of excess global industrial capacity;
• the explosion of speculation and excess risk-taking by banks, other financial and non-financial corporations, and the rich;
• the systematic misrepresentation of credit risks by capitalist rating firms;
• the failure of supervision and regulation by governments increasingly dependent on corporations and the rich (for campaign contributions, lobbyists' supports, etc.) over the last quarter century;
• the growing indebtedness of governments;
• the huge imbalances between trade and capital flows among nations (and, above all, the trade deficits of the US and the trade surpluses of the PRC)

In this list, the role of Greece is minor almost to the vanishing point. But Greek workers loom large among the proposed victims of the capitalist crisis they did not cause.

When the global capitalist crisis hit in 2007, Greece like most other countries boosted its deficit finance. It had already been running high government deficits largely based on very rosy predictions of Greece's economic prospects given its low (for Europe) wages and rising productivity in the years before 2007. So Greece has borrowed a lot (although other countries who borrowed more and for similar reasons are not -- yet -- being treated like Greece).

The problem for Greek national debt is that other, larger, richer capitalist nations -- those whose capitalists' actions were the leading causes of the global crisis -- have also vastly increased their borrowing. Lending to the latter is far safer than lending to the poorer, often more indebted countries like Greece, Portugal, etc. So lenders are requiring them to pay much higher interest rates just to meet their current debt obligations (and they probably need to borrow more, just like other countries, to avoid another nasty recessionary downturn). Lenders are also threatening to stop lending unless these poorer countries lower the ratio between their debt and their GDP (the widely used measure of the country's total output and thus its ultimate ability to pay back its debts).

To make the billions in extra interest payments and/or to lower their outstanding debt, governments in countries like Greece would have to raise taxes on their people or cut spending on their peoples' needs or both. Those steps would provide those governments with the funds to pay higher interest rates on their debt and lower the total of outstanding debt.

In simple English: the global capitalist crisis first brought an economic downturn to Greece, and now the "recovery" seeks to impose on the Greek people an indefinite period of economic suffering as global lenders provide funds to the richer, larger capitalist economies elsewhere so that they can avoid what is demanded of the Greeks. The same leaders of business and government who produced the crisis are managing the "recovery" in just this way.

Nor should we fail to mention that the Greek government and its business leaders are now forced to make a big decision too. Will they go along with the plan? Will they force the mass of Greek workers and their families to pay higher taxes, earn lower incomes, and lose government services to "service Greece's creditors"? Or will they be blocked from doing so by the Greek peoples' resistance? That's what is at stake in the mass strikes now rocking Greece.

And how might that resistance handle matters differently? In the immediate future, they might finally demand an end to the massive evasion of Greek taxes by its billionaire and millionaire elite on both their corporate and personal accounts. Let them finally pay -- according to their exalted abilities -- to service Greece's creditors. However, given their equally notorious mechanisms of tax evasion, honed over centuries, it would be better -- and sooner rather than later -- to abolish private Greek enterprises and reorganize them as worker-controlled enterprises sharing power with the government. Their joint project would then be to produce a "recovery" not just from this particular capitalist crisis but from the system that reproduces capitalist crises every few years.

Such a Greek resistance might also stimulate and inspire parallel movements in other countries whose people are likewise boiling because they bear the costs of a crisis they did not cause and a "recovery" that is not theirs. And so it should be, because the Greek resistance would need allies elsewhere to succeed and vice versa. Capitalism's global crisis is a burden for the working classes of the world, but it is also an opportunity. To suffer the former while missing a chance to grab the latter would only make this crisis yet more tragic

[Scholarios]

in short, corruption.

[Laberia]

Greece's borrowing before the crisis was below the EU average. The whole world lives in fact on borrowed money, Netherlands, Belgium's, Italy's USA's debts are unsustainable. Virtually every Western country lives on borrowed money, and they are not growing enough to pay back the interests of their loans. It is also agreed by top economists, that these countries will have to default. Greece is simply the top of the iceberg, and part of her problems have to do with the faulty design of the monetary union. Biggest part of her problems are incompetent politicians.

Yes, but it's important for what you use this debt and also if you can pay it.

[Lavrentis]

in short, corruption.

The socialist goverments of PASOK must be blamed for this and the economic crisis as a whole.

[Laberia]

The socialist goverments of PASOK must be blamed for this and the economic crisis as a whole.
Mazi ta fagame.

[wvwvw]

Yes, but it's important for what you use this debt and also if you can pay it.

To buy German products and F-16s.

[Laberia]

To buy German products and F-16s.

Who told you to buy this toys?

[wvwvw]

Who told you to buy this toys?

German banks were begging us to borrow their money. They were distributing freely credit cards, and the government was lured into borrowing more than it could afford because dumb politicians thought interest rates would not dramatically change.

They gave Greece NOTHING that wasn't spent in Germany, on German goods, in German investments in Greece, or protecting our selves from a monster America and Germany created next door (Turkey)

Irresponsible borrowers can’t exist without irresponsible lenders. Germany’s banks were Greece’s enablers. German banks built up precarious exposures to Europe’s peripheral countries in the years before the crisis. By December 2009, according to the Bank for International Settlements, German banks had amassed claims of $704 billion on Greece, Ireland, Italy, Portugal and Spain, much more than the German banks’ aggregate capital. In other words, they lent more than they could afford.

[wvwvw]

The Greek bailout was a bailout of German banks. Not a penny of the bail out money went to Greece.

All these loans have cost Greece 3 TRILLION so far, not counting the human cost.

It has cost us 3 TRILLION to borrow 200 BILLION, while the irresponsible German banks didn't have to pay a penny. They tricked the EU taxpayer into believing they were bailing out Greece. Greece was destroyed and looted so that German banks can go scot free.

Greece should have followed Iceland's example, and officially declare bankruptchy long time ago. And that's what we should do now, or as soon as possible.

[Gold-Shekel]

Because they're a Balkan country trying to be like Western Europe, the same fate awaits Croatia. If you don't have colonies you simply cannot compete with Western nations.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Because they're a Balkan country trying to be like Western Europe, the same fate awaits Croatia. If you don't have colonies you simply cannot compete with Western nations.

In your wet dreams we could have anything in common with you http://www.fabian-vendrig.eu/fileadmin/Balkans/maps/balkans.jpg

Now sorry to the rest of Balkan nations who are forced to share the same map with Islamic sitholes :D

I will agree about colonies, I am the first to say that in the 3rd comment but we can't be associated with countries we have nothing in common like... Bosnia

[Gold-Shekel]

...

I think I hit a nerve there, a perfectly normal comment from me resulted in a comment filled with insults from your part with an ethnic map no less. Don't try to deny it, you're Balkan as well, a shithole place and unless you accept it you are doomed. Your attitude is perhaps even worse than the average Balkanite's.


We'll talk again once you pay your debt.

[brennus dux gallorum]

I think I hit a nerve there, a perfectly normal comment from me resulted in a comment filled with insults from your part with an ethnic map no less. Don't try to deny it, you're Balkan as well, a shithole place and unless you accept it you are doomed. Your attitude is perhaps even worse than the average Balkanite's.


We'll talk again once you pay your debt.

I know myself and my country better than you, and I am sorry to disappoint you but I am neither balkanite, nor have really anything in common with you and your country, don't beg me like a little girl to join you

the last thing I would give a sit about is a 3Rd world Muslim slav who compares Greece, one of the top 30 countries in terms of well being in the world with his shithole

And no, I have no debt to pay, the country which hosts you has to its former colonies

[catgeorge]

Cuorrption level in Greece is no higher than anywhere else. Siemens and Deutsch telekom attempted to corrupt some Greek politicians to get some deals over the line and also applied lots of pressure to get deals done.

Greeks have an economic problem called the pension which is bloating. The problem here is that Greek leaders of the past did not think things through correctly.

For example 10 years ago in Australia it established a thing called the "future fund" to offset a bloating pension system its a sovereign wealth fund now worth billions upon billions that can offset pension liabilities with no problem. Unfortunately Greek leaders did not have the type of forsight.

Greece has a never ending shortfall in budget gaps like paying pensions, social security and public sector staff,

Now here comes the stupid bit....

Between 1998-2005 Greece was floating 5 yr bonds @ 4% coupon rate to offset budget shortfalls.... this was always oversubscribed by almost 5-8x everytime meaning every 3 billion Greek debt dept floated the banks were bidding 12 billion to invest. Greeks did not really need additional money but took some of i.e., 4-5 billion of the 3 billion requirement.

The reason why it was constantly oversubscribed was of the belief of the evergrowing Greek economy whom Greek private sector was investing in the 60 million Balkan consumer market and Greece was to be a "head office" hub for this market.

The reason bankers believed this was going to happen was due to EU subsidy system which Germans were pumping money in the Greek economy to make this happen. So they were of the belief of an ever-growing Greek economy..... at this precise moment Greece not only had too much cash to spend but also had too much debt through its debt sales which were oversubscribed.

Then came the credit crisis in the USA and U.S economy went into turmoil....at this point Greece had no subrime debt problem meaning internal debt issues the populace was not in debt.... the debt was almost exclusively external...

Due to its debt levels and rising interest rates as credit markets across the globe was frozen - Greek rates started creeping up.... then come the bond vigilantes whom are merely hedge fund managers making squillions out of manipulative trades.. meaning if they smell blood in the market they will kill it. So they started shorting Greek bonds mercilessly - Greek bond market can be manipulated by hedge funds supported by banks because it is illiquid. This has caused interest rates to spiral out of control.

All this because German and French banks made the decision back in early 2000s that the Greek economy would not stop growing. So a few years later - they got it all wrong and their greed was not checked.

All 1st world countries have 15% of workforce in public sector. At this moment Germany has 28%, France has 19% and Greece has 11%.

Why the hell Greece decided to get in bed with such retards is beyond me.

[Böri]

Greece is doomed and there is no return. It will be destroyed


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QM4wI9xngs

[catgeorge]

Greece is doomed and there is no return. It will be destroyed


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4QM4wI9xngs

On ignore.

[Böri]

Who the f*ck cares you ignore or what? Reality is just reality. You all show Greece and Greeks like what they arent. The reality is that Greece is a failed country with deep social and economic crisis. Here a BBC documentary, now in Greece the brothels owner say they must decline the rising amount of married women who wanna work in brothels.
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-30940825/love-in-greece-crisis-prostitution

You will fail and your country will be destroyed. We or somebody else will take over Greece. You show your uncapable people of having a country. You dont deserve to have a country.

[Scholarios]

Who the f*ck cares you ignore or what? Reality is just reality. You all show Greece and Greeks like what they arent. The reality is that Greece is a failed country with deep social and economic crisis. Here a BBC documentary, now in Greece the brothels owner say they must decline the rising amount of married women who wanna work in brothels.
http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-europe-30940825/love-in-greece-crisis-prostitution

You will fail and your country will be destroyed. We or somebody else will take over Greece. You show your uncapable people of having a country. You dont deserve to have a country.

You shall need to take full control of your own country beforehand.

[Böri]

You shall need to take full control of your own country beforehand.

Being enslaved by us is better than having a failing country where MARRIED women have to go to brothels and face rejection then must go to streets. Then people like that try to take Turkish islands and waters in Aegean PFFFFFFFFFFF....
Greece must immediately leave the EU, return West Thrace and Aegean islands to us and declare full submission. We are proved genetically to be better than you and you will be happier under our rule. At least married women wont need to go to work as prostitutes to feed their children.
İ swear Syrian refugees in Turkey are better than Greeks. Government gives them monthly money so they dont work as prostitutes etc. For Greeks, submission to Turks is salvation and not humiliation because nobody can humiliate Greeks as much as they humiliate themselves. We will save you.

[Scholarios]

Being enslaved by us is better than having a failing country where MARRIED women have to go to brothels and face rejection then must go to streets. Then people like that try to take Turkish islands and waters in Aegean PFFFFFFFFFFF....
Greece must immediately leave the EU, return West Thrace and Aegean islands to us and declare full submission. We are proved genetically to be better than you and you will be happier under our rule. At least married women wont need to go to work as prostitutes to feed their children.
İ swear Syrian refugees in Turkey are better than Greeks. Government gives them monthly money so they dont work as prostitutes etc. For Greeks, submission to Turks is salvation and not humiliation because nobody can humiliate Greeks as much as they humiliate themselves. We will save you.

How insane are you in comparison with average Turks? Because you are possibly the most out of touch person on this forum.

[Bosniensis]

I know myself and my country better than you, and I am sorry to disappoint you but I am neither balkanite, nor have really anything in common with you and your country, don't beg me like a little girl to join you

the last thing I would give a sit about is a 3Rd world Muslim slav who compares Greece, one of the top 30 countries in terms of well being in the world with his shithole

And no, I have no debt to pay, the country which hosts you has to its former colonies

You are right you are not Balkanite you probably came with bunch of Germans who conquered Constantinople in 12th century, and southern Greece.

So, not only that you are not Balkanite, you aren't Greek as well. You just speak their language.

[Voskos]

I think I hit a nerve there, a perfectly normal comment from me resulted in a comment filled with insults from your part with an ethnic map no less. Don't try to deny it, you're Balkan as well, a shithole place and unless you accept it you are doomed. Your attitude is perhaps even worse than the average Balkanite's.


We'll talk again once you pay your debt.

i don't agree about greece being western either but we're anything but balkan, especially the islands.of course if by balkan you mean a failed economy then yes, we fit to the definition pretty good

[stemm99]

Collectivism won in Greece... nuff said!

[Gold-Shekel]

I know myself and my country better than you, and I am sorry to disappoint you but I am neither balkanite, nor have really anything in common with you and your country, don't beg me like a little girl to join you

the last thing I would give a sit about is a 3Rd world Muslim slav who compares Greece, one of the top 30 countries in terms of well being in the world with his shithole

And no, I have no debt to pay, the country which hosts you has to its former colonies

I've never seen such a big amount of denial in one single post ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

[stemm99]

Greeks (at least in mass/social media) have made an impression of being hardcore asslickers/cocksuckers off commie slavs liks serbs and russians...

[Bosniensis]

I've never seen such a big amount of denial in one single post ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Ma pusti tu gnjidu koji se ulizuje Germanima i koji vidi kulturu civilizaciju samo u onoj mjeri koliko si moćan i bogat.

Vidiš ga da kaže: Vi ste niko i ništa, mi smo bogatiji od vas... ko to je nešto....

[Lavrentis]

Greeks (at least in mass/social media) have made an impression of being hardcore asslickers/cocksuckers off commie slavs liks serbs and russians...

Can you explain?

[Lavrentis]

i don't agree about greece being western either but we're anything but balkan, especially the islands.of course if by balkan you mean a failed economy then yes, we fit to the definition pretty good

Why don't you agree about Greece being western? We are.

[Voskos]

Why don't you agree about Greece being western? We are.

in what sense

[Lavrentis]

in what sense

Culturally and politically.

[Voskos]

Culturally and politically.

i think we're just a mix of east and west.

[Lavrentis]

i think we're just a mix of east and west.

Historically Greece focused in the east with Alexander the Great and later with the Byzantine Empire, but on a modern sense we have nothing to do with the east.

[brennus dux gallorum]

I've never seen such a big amount of denial in one single post ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

Never seen so much begging us to join a shithole where we do not belong by a 3rd world Muslim in a single post :D

[Gold-Shekel]

Never seen so much begging us to join a shithole where we do not belong by a 3rd world Muslim in a single post :D

It's funny you say Belgium is 3rd World when you're from Greece. Stop pretending to be rich, you're all poor as fuck.


Ma pusti tu gnjidu koji se ulizuje Germanima i koji vidi kulturu civilizaciju samo u onoj mjeri koliko si moćan i bogat.

Vidiš ga da kaže: Vi ste niko i ništa, mi smo bogatiji od vas... ko to je nešto....

Da je Grčka bogata zemlja ne bi ovaj cigan toliko se branio da nije siromašna. Lipo ga pogodi u ponos.

[brennus dux gallorum]

It's funny you say Belgium is 3rd World when you're from Greece. Stop pretending to be rich, you're all poor as fuck.



Da je Grčka bogata zemlja ne bi ovaj cigan toliko se branio da nije siromašna. Lipo ga pogodi u ponos.

Are you high on crack? I was obviously talking about AL Bosnia, the fact that you immigrated there doesn't make you Belgian, as for Greece I can ensure you that reality is a little different than what media show you

[brennus dux gallorum]

It's funny you say Belgium is 3rd World when you're from Greece. Stop pretending to be rich, you're all poor as fuck.



Da je Grčka bogata zemlja ne bi ovaj cigan toliko se branio da nije siromašna. Lipo ga pogodi u ponos.

Are you high on crack? I was obviously talking about AL Bosnia, the fact that you immigrated there doesn't make you Belgian, as for Greece I can ensure you that reality is a little different than what media show you