Southern Spanish?

[Potentia]

So, after reading some older posts, I stumbled across a theory that Sikeliot put out there.


The original southern Spanish population finds its descendants in modern North Africans, and modern southern Spanish are mostly transplants from the north, as the original southerners were largely Arabized and then expelled to North Africa.

I, myself, am inclined to actually agree with this theory. As, it would explain the homogeneity of the current Spanish Population.

However, I feel as though that this theory could be expanded. In my opinion, I think that Latin Americans that have Colonial Ancestry are descended from these "original" Southern Spaniards. This would explain why a good amount of Latin Americans have different Caucasian Components than the Modern Spaniards.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

I don't agree with Sikeliot's belief. All of al-Andalusia except Granada and coastal areas were conquered in the 13th century, The Reconquista pretty much stopped in the 1250s and wasn't picked up again until the 1480s. We know Granada had a high population density but we also know many Muslims didn't migrate to Granada. We also know that because so much land was taken over in such a short period of time particular noble families received large tracts of land latifundia). This takes away an incentive to head south to settle new land if you're going to be a tenant of a larger land owner and without the rights that northerners typically had. The depopulation of Andalusia was an issue but when you have an area that once had a larger population with now a smaller population that smaller population is going to have a lot of fucking kids (think American frontier society) because working hands are needed. We also know that the Christians that helped repopulated Andalusia were from the settled areas of the northern part of Andalusia that spurred the population growth, which goes back to my point about having many children after there is a depopulation. It wasn't a complete depopulation of the area because I said not all Muslims left.

So basically my belief (which is the correct belief based what we know of the demographics) is Andalusians are a blend of Castillians who settled in the northern part of Andalusia and later had a burst in population growth and Muslims who had not left for Granada and later converted to Christianity.

My tired and so I may not have written clearly. However, I post some quotes/sources to support my belief at some point.

[Potentia]

I don't agree with Sikeliot's belief. All of al-Andalusia except Granada and coastal areas were conquered in the 13th century, The Reconquista pretty much stopped in the 1250s and wasn't picked up again until the 1480s. We know Granada had a high population density but we also know many Muslims didn't migrate to Granada. We also know that because so much land was taken over in such a short period of time particular noble families received large tracts of land latifundia). This takes away an incentive to head south to settle new land if you're going to be a tenant of a larger land owner and without the rights that northerners typically had. The depopulation of Andalusia was an issue but when you have an area that once had a larger population with now a smaller population that smaller population is going to have a lot of fucking kids (think American frontier society) because working hands are needed. We also know that the Christians that helped repopulated Andalusia were from the settled areas of the northern part of Andalusia that spurred the population growth, which goes back to my point about having many children after there is a depopulation. It wasn't a complete depopulation of the area because I said not all Muslims left.

So basically my belief (which is the correct belief based what we know of the demographics) is Andalusians are a blend of Castillians who settled in the northern part of Andalusia and later had a burst in population growth and Muslims who had not left for Granada and later converted to Christianity.

My tired and so I may not have written clearly. However, I post some quotes/sources to support my belief at some point.

Ah, I see.

So, what you're saying is that the Andalusians are mostly descended from Northern Castilians, who mixed with the existing Muslim Population of Southern Spain? However, if this were true, what could explain the homogeneity of the peoples of the Iberian Peninsula?

[RN97]

Spaniards are not homogeneous.

[Autrigón]

So, after reading some older posts, I stumbled across a theory that Sikeliot put out there.



I, myself, am inclined to actually agree with this theory. As, it would explain the homogeneity of the current Spanish Population.

However, I feel as though that this theory could be expanded. In my opinion, I think that Latin Americans that have Colonial Ancestry are descended from these "original" Southern Spaniards. This would explain why a good amount of Latin Americans have different Caucasian Components than the Modern Spaniards.Yes, I'm more or less agree. The reconquest of Southern Spain was in some aspects similar that the conquest of the far West in United States...large lands empty of people and a necessity of repopulate the new reconquest territories with soldiers and their families from the north of Iberia. People who could establish and defend the frontiers.

[Potentia]

Spaniards are not homogeneous.

They are very similar, genetically.

[caviezel]

my parents went to visit Cordoba in 2014 and I called my mother to ask her how the people looked like there and she was like 'I can't tell because there were too many strangers and tourists'. It's quite telling that she had more sense than the majority of TA users who go places and pretend to judge the population as it was only locals.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

Ah, I see.

So, what you're saying is that the Andalusians are mostly descended from Northern Castilians, who mixed with the existing Muslim Population of Southern Spain? However, if this were true, what could explain the homogeneity of the peoples of the Iberian Peninsula?

Those Muslims were no different than their Christian counterparts except for cultural differences.

The impact of north Africans on the Iberian peninsula is mostly pre-Moorish invasion. The highest levels of North African tend to be in the north-West where the Moorish presence lasted no more than a few decades and only along the foothills, while areas that had centuries of Moorish rule have less. The NA is highest in the western part of Iberia and declines as you move east. That doesn't fit with what one would expect with the Moorish occupation but it does make sense for an ancient population movement.

[Friends of Oliver Society]

my parents went to visit Cordoba in 2014 and I called my mother to ask her how the people looked like there and she was like 'I can't tell because there were too many strangers and tourists'. It's quite telling that she had more sense than the majority of TA users who go places and pretend to judge the population as it was only locals.

That's an odd question to ask your mom while she's on vacation. If I asked my mother the same question she would say she was too busy looking at how jacked up are the prices to pay attention to what people look like and then go on about the most egregious example.

[Kriptc06]

can you please cite the source of this article, thanks

[Carlito's Way]

Mexico did not only have Andalusian immigrants (although the vast majority came from there), the next big Spanish population was coming from Extremadura, also from Valencia (majority coming from an area called Alicante), then from Castile-La Mancha or Castile y Leon (I always mix those two up but its one of those either way, those two regions became the second Spanish region to make it to Mexico), then it was the Basques and Navarros and lastly the other Northern Spaniards who were majority business people, rich and wealthy. Most of the wealthy criollo families of Mexico have majority their roots in Northern Spain because they descendant from those wealthy Northern Spanish families that made their way into Mexico. And yes, majority of them came with their families. While almost all of the Southern Spanish population in Mexico were peasants and low class people, Central Spanish people were a mix bag, some were poor while others were wealthy

I think majority of the wealthy Spaniards in Latin America will have Northern Spanish roots for the most part because many were wealthy people who decided to expand their wealthy in Latin America, that is why its not uncommon to find rich Latin American families with Northern Spanish surnames and shit like that


I read this on the Spanish immigration to Mexico and Latin America

[Tietar]

Ah, I see.

So, what you're saying is that the Andalusians are mostly descended from Northern Castilians, who mixed with the existing Muslim Population of Southern Spain? However, if this were true, what could explain the homogeneity of the peoples of the Iberian Peninsula?

Moors, like any other non-European ethnic group, were an isolated and minority community in Spain (as in the present day the groups of immigrants), even after they converted to Christianity, so they were subsequently expelled.

Some texts that show it (translated with google):


Arbitrator Cristóbal Pérez de Herrera:

I thought they were good, particularly to grow orchards; But looking at it, they were not for anything; They were only picking up the money, being mule drivers and resellers in eating shops, sucking on our money, helping one another so that there would be no poor people among them, taking away this exploitation from the old Christians ... and they did not spend anything that came In his possession; Not buying wine, which is what most ordinary people use, and what helps to pay the Millions and alcabalas, and bacon and other expensive maintenance, contributed much less than ours.

The colloquium of the dogs of Cervantes:

All his intent is to mince and keep money coined, and to get him work and not eat; In entering the real in his power, as it is not simple, condemn him to imprisonment perpetual and eternal darkness; So that always earning and spending never arrive and accumulate the largest amount of money in Spain. They are piggy banks, their moth, their itch and their weasels; Everything comes, everything is hidden and swallowed up. Consider that they are many, and that every day they gain and hide little or much ... we fall on foot, and with the fruits of our estates, that they resell us, they become rich


https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consecuencias_de_la_expulsi%C3%B3n_de_los_moriscos

Mixed marriages ?, I do not think


In 1252, Alfonso X of Castile became King of the greater Christian kingdom of the peninsula: Castile and Leon. He said: "If anyone is so unfortunate as to convert to Judaism or Islam, we will order his sentence to death." But let us remember that he also commanded that Muslims and Jews be respected on the Sabbath holy day and on Friday in the synagogues and in the mosques in their holy places. What he wanted was for the religions already present to spread no further.


About Toledo And their supposed coexistence of the three religions:


"I think it has been exaggerated a bit [...]. There was no multiculturalism, as it is today. Each one was taught his religion and each had his church, his synagogue, his mosque, his council, his aljama, his justice, and even marriages between Christians and Jews were prohibited, or that ... but there was a relationship Peaceful relationship between them. "

"The door of each of the neighborhoods was closed at night and this for me means something, and is that, there no was a perfect coexistence."



https://evacuentalahistoriadeespana.wordpress.com/2013/04/23/laespanacristianadelastresculturas/

[Carlito's Way]

I think Moors did make their way to Mexico, especially to New Spain and Peru which were in that time the most important and richest new discovered places
I say this because in Mexico we do have Moorish influence in the cuisine, architecture, words, ect. Spaniards for example dont say alberca, the only ones who use that term are mexicans, while they use piscina
alberca is a moorish/arab word


you also have the Tapada limeña, who were Peruvian from Lima who would cover themselves like Burqa muslims, how did this shit get there?? I doubt Spaniards were dressing like this
http://repositorio.pucp.edu.pe/index/bitstream/handle/123456789/9560/ELE-0265.jpg?sequence=4&isAllowed=y

[Potentia]

Mexico did not only have Andalusian immigrants (although the vast majority came from there), the next big Spanish population was coming from Extremadura, also from Valencia (majority coming from an area called Alicante), then from Castile-La Mancha or Castile y Leon (I always mix those two up but its one of those either way, those two regions became the second Spanish region to make it to Mexico), then it was the Basques and Navarros and lastly the other Northern Spaniards who were majority business people, rich and wealthy. Most of the wealthy criollo families of Mexico have majority their roots in Northern Spain because they descendant from those wealthy Northern Spanish families that made their way into Mexico. And yes, majority of them came with their families. While almost all of the Southern Spanish population in Mexico were peasants and low class people, Central Spanish people were a mix bag, some were poor while others were wealthy

I think majority of the wealthy Spaniards in Latin America will have Northern Spanish roots for the most part because many were wealthy people who decided to expand their wealthy in Latin America, that is why its not uncommon to find rich Latin American families with Northern Spanish surnames and shit like that


I read this on the Spanish immigration to Mexico and Latin America

Don't most Spanish surnames originate in the North? Because, my surname, Juárez, originates in Galicia. However, I do not think that my Spanish Ancestry is Northern in any way. My Great-Grandfather in Mexico, before he died, did own land in Zacatecas however. I'm not too sure that it makes us a more wealthy family.

[gold_fenix]

Well i am half Andalucian, half Castilla la Mancha , in my 23andme can be seen this you talk in the thread.

[Potentia]

Well i am half Andalucian, half Castilla la Mancha , in my 23andme can be seen this you talk in the thread.

Interesting.

I've seen your 23andme before. And, you're quite Northern shifted. Maybe you're a Northern transplant?

[Carlito's Way]

Don't most Spanish surnames originate in the North? Because, my surname, Juárez, originates in Galicia. However, I do not think that my Spanish Ancestry is Northern in any way. My Great-Grandfather in Mexico, before he died, did own land in Zacatecas however. I'm not too sure that it makes us a more wealthy family.

A lot of the Spanish settlers in Zacatecas were actually from Extremadura and Andalusia, I remember posting something about the early Spanish settlers of Zacatecas and majority were coming from those regions. Juarez might have originated in Galicia but it doesn't mean that there were no Juarez in Southern Spain.