Did the Vandals and generally the Germanic tribes who invaded North Africa left any genetic impact

[Lavrentis]

..in North Africa?

[Kelmendasi]

Some did leave a genetic impact. I have seen some northern Africans score Northern European and this I believe is from them

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

In some yes

[Smeagol]

No. No proof of that at all.

[brennus dux gallorum]

no

[Lavrentis]

No. No proof of that at all.

But they settled North Africa in big numbers, right?

[Cristiano viejo]

But they settled North Africa in big numbers, right?
300.000 or so.

[Sekarotuinen]

Yes, they did, especially in what is now Tunisia. They also left a linguistic impact on the Arabic language in respect to place-names.

[Lavrentis]

300.000 or so.

That's big.

[Cristiano viejo]

That's big.

I dont think so.

[Lavrentis]

Yes, they did, especially in what is now Tunisia. They also left a linguistic impact on the Arabic language in respect to place-names.

Really? Can you expand on the linguistic impact and the place names?

[Smeagol]

But they settled North Africa in big numbers, right?

Not relative to North African numbers in general though. Surely they got absorbed into the general population but it's unlikely that they affected them genetically in any significant way.

[Lavrentis]

I dont think so.

Do we know the population of North Africa at the time?

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Do we know the population of North Africa at the time?

They were garamantes and roman immigrants in north africa. Other berber groups as well. And vandal invasion of north africa.

[Sekarotuinen]

Really? Can you expand on the linguistic impact and the place names?
Just as an example, the name Andalusia. Vandal -> Vandalusia -> Andalusia -> Al-Andalus.

[Ülev]

yes, they were I2a1 M-26
from IJK y-dna branch, I was born somewhere in Iran (Persia), some I stayed in Europe some go far away, reached N. Africa


While a European point of origin has often been proposed – as I-M170 has not found outside Europe in Paleolithic remains – the modern populations with the greatest proportions of basal, undiverged I* are found in the Caucasus and Iran. These include the Darginians (Dargwa) and North Ossetians of the North Caucasus,[3] and ethnic Iranians from Tehran and Isfahan.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M170



http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp6/gothorum1/kerava/I2a1_zps7ypxptsj.jpg

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/NE_600ad.jpg/1280px-NE_600ad.jpg

[Kelmendasi]

yes, they were I2a1 M-26
from IJK y-dna branch, I was born somewhere in Iran (Persia), some I stayed in Europe some go far away, reached N. Africa



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M170



[mg]http://i392.photobucket.com/albums/pp6/gothorum1/kerava/I2a1_zps7ypxptsj.jpg[/img]
Really? I heard that haplogroup I was born in Europe

[Africa]

300.000 or so.

80.000

[Dandelion]

They probably have. They faded in obscurity and I doubt they were all carried off as slaves or slaughtered. One century did they have their kingdom in North Africa, until the Eastern Romans reconquered the land.

Once they lost power they just assimilated into the local culture, either Greek or Berber. That's what I assume. Some might have left for Iberia, where the Visigoths were in power.

After their conquest they lost their privileged status and were easily assimilated as they were but a tiny population surrounded by a population that was 13 times larger than theirs.

[MsSPF]

Intermixing probably occured but I highly doubt they left any noticeable genetic impact in the population. They were between 80 000 and 20 000 of them, the numbers aren't exact.
Most vandals and alans (because there were some of them as well) in the region (coastal Algeria+Tunisia+Eastern Libya) just assimilated at the end of their reign. Only a matter of individual case then...

I would not say the same about romans and phoenicians.

[Dandelion]

No Algerian is going to claim Germanic pride and ancestry in other words. ;)

[Hamilcar]

Vandals left no genetic traces in North Africa simply because they were a small group of 80 000 individuals (women and children included) who lived in the rich and fertile countryside of carthage and their christian doctrine (arianism) prevented them from mixing with the local catholic romano-africans even with the african aristocracy who was obviously not willing to mix with people who exiled, killed or despoiled them.


We do not see, in the sources, any indication of a promotion towards "Germanity", whereas in the Roman Empire, all pilgrims had a vocation to become a citizen. Moreover, confessional hostility prohibited mixed marriages, so that it can be said that two peoples coexisted in the kingdom. [...] Certain authors, like F.Martroye affirm that the vandal kings were hostile to mixed unions for fear of seeing the discipline of their warriors dissolve in Africitas. We are all the more justified in doubting the homogeneity of society - it was in fact limited to the merger between the Vandals and Alans - that it is difficult to believe in a "class collaboration", insofar as the aristocracy, ousted and despoiled, held a grudge against the Vandals even if some of its members had escaped exile. Even those who had loyally "collaborated" with the Vandals, such as Carthage proconsul Victorianus, whose dedication to the king is remembered, were ultimately eliminated for religious reasons.

source : Africa quasi Roma by Jean-Marie Lassère, p671

They were defeated by Byzantines in 533 and expelled from Africa ( the last king Gelimer was sent to Galatia, his soldiers were enslaved and the elite of it was transferred in the East : one part incorporated into the imperial guard in Constantinople and the rest formed five units of cavalry called "Vandali Iustiniani" and were installed along the shores of the Euphrates)

[SharpFork]

The best way to know would be to see an in-depth Y-DNA study in Tunisia and Algeria and see the amount of Y-DNA we can reasonably trace to North-Central Europe. But even there we would be speaking of Y-DNA levels of less than 5% if we add everything up:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3576335/

Who knows how much there was by 550 CE though, North Africa experienced many demographical events since then through Arab conquest and migrations, trans-Saharan slavery, mediterranean slavery etc.

[Hamilcar]

The best way to know would be to see an in-depth Y-DNA study in Tunisia and Algeria and see the amount of Y-DNA we can reasonably trace to North-Central Europe. But even there we would be speaking of Y-DNA levels of less than 5% if we add everything up:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3576335/

Who knows how much there was by 550 CE though, North Africa experienced many demographical events since then through Arab conquest and migrations, trans-Saharan slavery, mediterranean slavery etc.

I posted sources and no Y-DNA won't tell us much because south euros themselves can carry these North-central european haplogroups. That's what the study says (you didn't even understand it well) : "Taken together, these values would suggest around 5% male Maghreb input in Mediterranean Europe. In turn, E-V13, R-M412, R-S116, and R-U152 could be used to infer the male European input in the Maghreb, giving a value around 8%. " ...just for your information contacts with Europe go back to the late neolithic at least if not earlier

[SharpFork]

I posted sources and no Y-DNA won't tell us much because south euros themselves can carry these North-central european haplogroups. That's what the study says (you didn't even understand it well) : "Taken together, these values would suggest around 5% male Maghreb input in Mediterranean Europe. In turn, E-V13, R-M412, R-S116, and R-U152 could be used to infer the male European input in the Maghreb, giving a value around 8%. " ...just for your information contacts with Europe go back to the late neolithic at least if not earlier
It's not neolithic contacts, they couldn't have brought any of those lineages given the TMRCA of those lineages is 3rd millennium BCE at their earliest and they originated in Central or Western Europe so their entrance in north Africa is certainly not that far back.

Also North Africa experienced a strong founder effect with E-M183 having a TMRCA in the 1st millennium BCE and compromising much of the Y-DNA lineages today, so those 8% would certainly date to either the Roman or post-Roman period and some of them could be Vandal but again North Africa was not static and experienced many changes and minor Y-DNA lineages could die easily in such circumstances.

[Hamilcar]

It's not neolithic contacts, they couldn't have brought any of those lineages given the TMRCA of those lineages is 3rd millennium BCE at their earliest and they originated in Central or Western Europe so their entrance in north Africa is certainly not that far back.

Also North Africa experienced a strong founder effect with E-M183 having a TMRCA in the 1st millennium BCE and compromising much of the Y-DNA lineages today, so those 8% would certainly date to either the Roman or post-Roman period and some of them could be Vandal but again North Africa was not static and experienced many changes and minor Y-DNA lineages could die easily in such circumstances.

I invite you to read my thread about megalithic culture in north africa and what it obviously implies from a genetic point of view : https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?335580-Megalithic-culture-in-the-maghreb

As for the founder effect it drastically reduced the local diversity indeed but not entirely and already during the late punic era we see movements of population especially between iberia and North Africa (in some cases italy too with italian merchants being present in Numidia). I will of course not mention the roman era which facilitated movements between SE and NA and later we do know that the byzantine soldiers (at the order of the local Duces ) stayed in Africa and married local women. Finally don't forget moriscos...


(also I don't see why you avoided my first answer on this thread it's literally the opinion of specialists)

[SharpFork]

I invite you to read my thread about megalithic culture in north africa and what it obviously implies from a genetic point of view : https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?335580-Megalithic-culture-in-the-maghreb
That's irrelevant to the Y-DNA that originates after the IE expansion, who knows how much pre-IE y-dna from Europe exists today and even if does it's basically completely native by the time the Vandals came and would be easy to recognize.


As for the founder effect it drastically reduced the local diversity indeed but not entirely and already during the late punic era we see movements of population especially between iberia and North Africa (in some cases italy too with italian merchants being present in Numidia). I will of course not mention the roman era which facilitated movements between SE and NA and later we do know that the byzantine soldiers (at the order of the local Duces ) stayed in Africa and married local women. Finally don't forget moriscos...
Well it depends on the exact haplogroups, obviously ones that peak in Italy and Iberia could have come with Vandals only as non-Vandal and non-Alan followers, but any non Southern European haplogroup has a good chance to have come with Vandals, given that Germanic and Eastern European Y-DNA is not that widespread in Iberia anyway and where it peaks like Galicia and Catalonia were not under Muslim role for long and didn't make the bulk of the Morisco population.
Same goes for Byzantine soldiers, they could have only really brought E-V13, although you could make the case that there could have been soldiers of East Germanic descent which settled there, but regardless in the study there was little clearly Germanic Y-DNA, who knows if there are small lineages that survived since then, at the end of the day it's rather chance whether one survives or not especially when it's that small in frequency.


(also I don't see why you avoided my first answer on this thread it's literally the opinion of specialists)
Your quote doesn't say anything about what happened after, saying that ALL Vandals went away or were killed is pure speculation.

[Hamilcar]

That's irrelevant to the Y-DNA that originates after the IE expansion, who knows how much pre-IE y-dna from Europe exists today and even if does it's basically completely native by the time the Vandals came and would be easy to recognize.


Well it depends on the exact haplogroups, obviously ones that peak in Italy and Iberia could have come with Vandals only as non-Vandal and non-Alan followers, but any non Southern European haplogroup has a good chance to have come with Vandals, given that Germanic and Eastern European Y-DNA is not that widespread in Iberia anyway and where it peaks like Galicia and Catalonia were not under Muslim role for long and didn't make the bulk of the Morisco population.
Same goes for Byzantine soldiers, they could have only really brought E-V13, although you could make the case that there could have been soldiers of East Germanic descent which settled there, but regardless in the study there was little clearly Germanic Y-DNA, who knows if there are small lineages that survived since then, at the end of the day it's rather chance whether one survives or not especially when it's that small in frequency.


Your quote doesn't say anything about what happened after, saying that ALL Vandals went away or were killed is pure speculation.

You're simply arguing for the sake of arguing you don't have any consistent evidence to back up your claims. I2a (which there is a high chance was the main paternal haplogroup of Vandals : https://originhunters.blogspot.com/2012/09/vandals-dna-leaving-genetic-graffiti.html ) peaks in andalusia and Aragon and is almost non-existent in Tunisia and even when taking all the european haplogroups into account, the influence is negligeable :

"The most common lineage was the North African haplogroup E‐M81 (71%), being fixed in two Berber samples (Chenini–Douiret and Jradou), suggesting isolation and genetic drift. Differential levels of paternal gene flow from the Near East were detected in the Tunisian samples (J‐M267 lineage over 30%); however, no major sub‐Saharan African or European influence was found. " https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/ajpa.21581

As for these byzantine soldiers, you're again showing your ignorance here because they were diverse (Anatolians, Syrians, Germans, Caucasians, Slavs and even Huns) and my source is quite clear about their fate and how separated they were from africans (Procopius himself is quite clear about it and clearly said that they fled and many of them went to Spain)

[Adamm]

European haplogroups in North Africa are almost 'rare', North Africa is dominated by E-M81.

[Hamilcar]

This is a huge contrast to Iberia, where even if it is small, Germanic left a tiny impact on specific regions on Portugal and Spain, Galicia and Northern Portugal to be exact.

It's not really comparable because the scale is different we're talking about 300 000 Visigoths (I don't know if this number includes suebians too) while only 80K vandals concentrated in northern tunisia. And if I remember correctly Visigoths ended up converting to catholicism while Vandals stayed arian.

Also the visigothic kingdom lasted a bit more than 200 years while the vandal kingdom only 100

[Solitude]

It's not really comparable because the scale is different we're talking about 300 000 Visigoths (I don't know if this number includes suebians too) while only 80K vandals concentrated in northern tunisia. And if I remember correctly Visigoths ended up converting to catholicism while Vandals stayed arian.

Also the visigothic kingdom lasted a bit more than 200 years while the vandal kingdom only 100

Visigoths kingdom + asturias kingdom would be +- 500 years, a lot of descendeants of suebians and visigoths lived in these regions in northwest iberia while moors conquered south and northeast iberia, i ve found a lot european haplos from north africa in a group facebook , i ve found a Y4355 that was common to germanic tribes

[MBVC]

Maybe they have (a little bit).
https://i.postimg.cc/xCKC9yQ2/v1.png
https://i.postimg.cc/Y0MS0G2m/v2.png

[Solitude]

The problem is that people read the numbers and think, 50, 100 years were few, it's absurd to say that because in 1 century a lot of things happens, these people who think that way should live 1 century to be able to give an opinion like that

[Abaddon]

No.

[Solitude]

No.

foram 100 anos de reinado , concerteza deixaram alguma coisa , tanto que tem até populações com fenotipos mais distintos da media da população , conhecidos como Kabyles que por coêcidencia vem da região onde os vandals se fixaram durante o seu reinado

[Abaddon]

foram 100 anos de reinado , concerteza deixaram alguma coisa , tanto que tem até populações com fenotipos mais distintos da media da população , conhecidos como Kabyles que por coêcidencia vem da região onde os vandals se fixaram durante o seu reinado

Se deixaram alguma coisa, trata-se de uma marca neglígivel, assim como os visigodos na península ibérica.

Os Kabyles geneticamente são semelhantes a qualquer outro berbere, exceto que eles também são mais Western-shifted por possuírem percentuais elevados de WHG e Neolítico, porém carecem do componente ANE e isso significa que eles têm pouca ou nenhuma ancestralidade européia recente; no final das contas os vândalos deixaram um legado insignificante.

[Solitude]

essa afirmação dos visigodos não faz nenhum sentido sendo que o Y deles é encontrado a quase 12 porcento em northwest iberia