Old Prussian ancestry of East Prussians

[Peterski]

Old Prussians were the native Baltic-speaking inhabitants of East Prussia before the area was conquered by the Teutonic Order. We have a lot of evidence of Prussian language being used long after the conquest, including texts in Prussian. The language got finally extinct at the beginning of the 1700s, its last speakers died in the Sambia Peninsula.

We have documents from the early 15th century which confirm that Old Prussians were not slaughtered during the conquest, but continued to be the main ethnic group of the area even over one century after the crusade. Here is the count of native Prussian farmsteads (families) in lands administered directly by the Teutonic Knights in year 1404:

Komturei - number of Prussian serf families / number of Prussian free families:

Marienburg - 444 / 57
Christburg - 1336 / 290
Elbing - 706 / 200
Balgen - 1935 / 908
Brandenburg (Pokarben) - 1148 / 450
Osterode - 97 / 9
Koenigsberg - 1610 / 1661
Ragnit - 108 / 121

In total - 7384 (serf) / 3696 (free) = ca. 11,100

But this doesn't include Prussian families in lands owned by bishops and in private estates, these are estimated as:

In areas administered by bishops estimated ca. 5,500 Prussian farmsteads
In areas owned by private owners estimated ca. 5,500 Prussian farmsteads

So another 11,000. In total over 22,000 farmsteads inhabited by Old Prussian rural population. Prussians of the Sambia Peninsula numbered ca. 4,400 families according to that census from year 1404 (they are already included in those 22,000 above).

In Kulmer Recht villages (they were new settlements established primarily for German and Polish immigrants) there were ca. 20,000 families (ca. 1000 villages x 20). It is said that in these villages the majority were immigrants (largely Germans) and Prussians were up to 25%, which is ca. 5,000 families.

Average size of a farmstead / familiy is estimated to be 5 people.

Those estimates above refer only to rural population, to settled peasants & petty nobles with their own farmsteads. It is estimated that there were also ca. 10,000 Prussian so-called "loose people" (advenae), hirelings (hired laborers) & social margins.

Moreover in 56 towns and cities existing in Prussia as of 1404 as well as in their suburbs, there lived ca. 50,000 people (including 9,000 in Koenigsberg and 9,000 in Elbing). It is estimated that Prussians were at least 10% of this urban & sub-urban population, so at least 5,000. But in reality that was rather closer to 6,500. It seems for example, that in Koenigsberg Prussians were 28% of the population (high % in the suburbs, low % in the Old Town) and in Elbing - around 6%. So in Koenigsberg and Elbing combined, Prussians were 17% - or 3,000 out of 18,000.

The remaining ca. 50 towns had 32,000 people, including at least 10% Prussians. I assumed 3,500 Prussians.

All in all, in 1404 Prussians were probably 50% up to 60% (average 55%), of population of their original territory as of 1220. But later their proportion declined after each subsequent war / epidemic, followed by new immigration waves. So my estimate is that by year 1816 no more than 1/3 of ancestry of population of East Prussia was Old Prussian. I chose 1816 because that's approximately when population of the "original Prussia" hit one million people.

My calculations/estimates for % of Prussian ancestry in East Prussia range from low 20% to high 35%.

This graph shows the option with high % of surviving Prussian ancestry (32-33%) - it shows estimated total population size, and estimated % origins of the population over time:

https://s17.postimg.org/5z2blsm33/East_Prussians_B.png

I also found 84 people with East Prussian ancestry in FTDNA Haplogroup Projects.

Y-DNA frequencies of modern Lithuanians and of pre-1945 East Prussians:

N1 - 40.53% (122) / 22.62% (19)
R1a - 42.19% (127) / 45.23% (38)
I2a - 2.33% (7) / 4.76% (4)
R1b - 4.32% (13) / 15.48% (13)
I1 - 4.65% (14) / 7.14% (6)
E1b - 2.66% (8) / 1.19% (1)
J - 1.33% (4) / 1.19% (1)
G - 1.00% (3) / 1.19% (1)
I2b - 0.33% (1) / 0.00% (0)
other - 0.66% (2) / 1.19% (1)

Total sample - 301 / 84

So, compared to Lithuanians, in East Prussia there was:

- 1.8 times less of N1c
- 2.2 times less of E1b
- 1.1 times less of J

- 3.6 times more of R1b
- 2.0 times more of I2a
- 1.5 times more of I1
- 1.1 times more of R1a

And when it comes to share of M458 in R1a:

Lithuanians (sample 127):

R1a(xM458) - 100 (= 78.74% of R1a)
R1a-M458 - 27 (= 21.26% of R1a)

East Prussia (sample 33 + 5 unknown):

R1a(xM458) - 27 (= 81.82% of R1a)
R1a-M458 - 6 (= 18.18% of R1a)

Unknown R1a - 5 (in total 33+5=38)

East Prussians with typically Balto-Slavic haplogroups (+ their surnames):

https://s31.postimg.org/mfwjkq5or/Old_Prussian_R1a_surnames.png

The most numerous subclade of N1c in East Prussia is Z16975 / FGC13372:

https://www.yfull.com/arch-3.15/tree/N-Z16975/

This is why I think that this branch of N1c can be called the Prussian branch:

http://i.imgur.com/liyBy1Y.png

[Peterski]

Is there anyone on TA who has this "Old Prussian branch" of N1c haplogroup?

==================

On GEDmatch, I've found a few people with 50% of East Prussian ancestry.

So far I wasn't able to find anyone with 100% of ancestry from East Prussia.

[Peterski]

Prussian Z16975 as well as Latvian Z16981, are common branches of N1c in Poland:

http://www.gwozdz.org/Results.html

http://i.imgur.com/ZSkWSHk.png

^ Z16981 is pretty much the same thing as CTS8173 (a common branch in Latvia):

https://www.yfull.com/arch-3.15/tree/N-Z16981/

https://www.yfull.com/arch-3.15/tree/N-CTS8173/

Typically Lithuanian branches are L551 and BY158. I didn't find info about their frequencies in Poland. What exactly is NY5580 - is this subclade listed on YFull, and is it common in Lithuania?

[Peterski]

The most numerous subclade of N1c in East Prussia is Z16975 / FGC13372:

https://www.yfull.com/arch-3.15/tree/N-Z16975/

This is why I think that this branch of N1c can be called the Prussian branch:

http://i.imgur.com/liyBy1Y.png

The distribution of N1c Z16975 / FGC13372 (situation before the World Wars):

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10956-Old-Prussian-ancestry-of-East-Prussians&p=256929&viewfull=1#post256929

http://i.imgur.com/2cBD3qc.jpg

[Peterski]

GEDmatch results:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?221019-Teutonic-Order-German-GEDmatch&p=4638124&viewfull=1#post4638124

[Bobby Martnen]

The post-war ethnic cleansing of Eastern Europe was a human tragedy on a massive scale. Germany and Poland both should have gotten to keep their Eastern lands. Stalin was a truly evil man for what he did, and he will burn in hell until the end of forever.

[Veslan]

The post-war ethnic cleansing of Eastern Europe was a human tragedy on a massive scale. Germany and Poland both should have gotten to keep their Eastern lands. Stalin was a truly evil man for what he did, and he will burn in hell until the end of forever.

Nothing would have changed if Germany didn't start the war in the first place. They deserved to lose these territories, and we deserved a better developped territories as a sort of recompense.

[Bobby Martnen]

Nothing would have changed if Germany didn't start the war in the first place. They deserved to lose these territories, and we deserved a better developped territories as a sort of recompense.

No, the actions of a government don't justify the ethnic cleansing of tens of millions of their citizens.

You deserved monetary reparations, and to keep your 1933 borders. Stalin had no right to the Kresy.

[Veslan]

No, the actions of a government don't justify the ethnic cleansing of tens of millions of their citizens.

You deserved monetary reparations, and to keep your 1933 borders. Stalin had no right to the Kresy.

The "actions of the government" were heavily supported by the Germans who lived in Prussia. They should have thought more carefully before agreeing to start a war.

But I agree that we deserve monetary reparations, as a supplement to our new territories. And Kresy would have been lost by us sooner or later anyway because of the ethnic instabillity.

[Bobby Martnen]

The "actions of the government" were heavily supported by the Germans who lived in Prussia. They should have thought more carefully before agreeing to start a war.

But I agree that we deserve monetary reparations, as a supplement to our new territories. And Kresy would have been lost by us sooner or later anyway because of the ethnic instabillity.

Here's how I see it:

1. Two wrongs don't make a right. The Allies should have taken the moral high ground and left all of the pre-1933 borders.

2. I don't think Poles or Poland are to blame for what happened to the Eastern Germans - it's mostly Stalin/the USSR's fault, although the Western Allies were complicit.

3. The Kresy had a large Polish population that was even the majority in some places (i.e. Lemberg, Grodno, Vilna), and the plurality in others. It was becoming more and more Polish as time went by, and thus would not have been lost eventually.

4. Trying to undo what was done in the 1940s now would just cause more suffering, and is thus not a wise idea. Although I wouldn't mind Poland getting Lemberg back...

[Peterski]

The Allies should have taken the moral high ground and left all of the pre-1933 borders.

There was no way anyone would allow East Prussia to remain part of Germany, because it was one of causes of WW2.

At best you could hope for something like this (but this would be good around 1918, in 1945 it was too late for this):

https://i.imgur.com/xjSI0IE.png

[Bobby Martnen]

There was no way anyone would allow East Prussia to remain part of Germany, because it was one of causes of WW2.

At best you could hope for something like this (but this would be good around 1918, in 1945 it was too late for this):

https://i.imgur.com/xjSI0IE.png

East Prussia should have been turned into it's own state - German-speaking without expulsions - sort of like a Baltic version of Austria

[Peterski]

East Prussia should have been turned into it's own state - German-speaking without expulsions - sort of like a Baltic version of Austria

Not all of East Prussia was German-speaking, there were Polish-speaking and Lithuanian-speaking areas too.

[Bobby Martnen]

Not all of East Prussia was German-speaking, there were Polish-speaking and Lithuanian-speaking areas too.

The problem is that the Polish-speaking parts that were left with Germany after WWI voted to stay German - there should have been another plebiscite in that area - Polish or Lithuanian areas that wanted to join those countries should have been able to, and the German parts and parts that didn't should have either stayed with Germany or become independent

[Peterski]

The problem is that the Polish-speaking parts that were left with Germany after WWI voted to stay German

Yeah because most of them were Lutheran, not Catholic.

But the plebiscite took place when Poland was in a very difficult military situation, fighting against the Soviets.

[Bobby Martnen]

Yeah because most of them were Lutheran, not Catholic.

But the plebiscite took place when Poland was in a very difficult military situation, fighting against the Soviets.

I agree that there should have been another plebiscite post-WWII. If the allies had truly cared about fairness and self-determination (instead of allowing Stalin's greedy land grab), they would have done that in all German-Polish, German-Czech, German-French border zones + South Tyrol and Danzig/Gdansk.

[Peterski]

Self-determination is mostly a hoax anyway. Just look at your own country in 1861, or Catalonia now.

[Bobby Martnen]

Self-determination is mostly a hoax anyway. Just look at your own country in 1861, or Catalonia now.

When done through a free and fair vote, it is a wonderful thing. When done through a rigged election (i.e. French annexation of Savoy in the mid-19th century), it's a hoax

[Veslan]

Here's how I see it:

1. Two wrongs don't make a right. The Allies should have taken the moral high ground and left all of the pre-1933 borders.

2. I don't think Poles or Poland are to blame for what happened to the Eastern Germans - it's mostly Stalin/the USSR's fault, although the Western Allies were complicit.

3. The Kresy had a large Polish population that was even the majority in some places (i.e. Lemberg, Grodno, Vilna), and the plurality in others. It was becoming more and more Polish as time went by, and thus would not have been lost eventually.

4. Trying to undo what was done in the 1940s now would just cause more suffering, and is thus not a wise idea. Although I wouldn't mind Poland getting Lemberg back...
1. "Wrong" is a relative term. The Germans took up brutality and disrespect, they got brutality and disrespect in return. As simple as that.

2. The true Polish government wanted some new territories as well. Maybe a bit more limited, in comparison to what Poland has reveied at the end, while still keeping the Kresy. The Germans would have been deported anyway as traitors or simply people unwanted on the Polish soil, just like in Czechoslovakia by the Polish government anyway if the Soviets didn't take care of it first. Also in my opinion Poland should ave actually received even more lands from Germany, more precisely Sorbian Lusatia and the entire Belt area. The Lusatians Slavs were left under the Germanic boot, and that is not good.

3. Only in Lithuania, big cities in Belarus, and territories nearby Lwów. There was actually an idea of Poland still having Grodno, Brześć and Lwów, but Allies have given it up. And Kresy would not have been fully polonized because of Ukrainian and to a esser degree Belarusian nationalists making terrorist attacks against the Polish population and the state.

4. There are no serious plans of taking Kresy back. This would be a similiar idea to for an example the British trying to re-annect Zimbabwe, because in one moment it had a significant White Anglo-Saxon population. Our government focus on influencing Ukraine in a diplomatic way and aim to create Central European alliance instead of attacking it's neighbours and annecting territory just becasue 80 years ago it had a Polish majority. In my opinion it should care a little more about Poles left in Central Lithuania though, because they are seriously discrimanted and if for an example Poland was acting in the same manner to Polish Germans as Lithuania acts to Lithuanian Poles, we would have been already sanctioned if not invaded.

[Bobby Martnen]

1. "Wrong" is a relative term. The Germans took up brutality and disrespect, they got brutality and disrespect in return. As simple as that.

2. The true Polish government wanted some new territories as well. Maybe a bit more limited, in comparison to what Poland has reveied at the end, while still keeping the Kresy. The Germans would have been deported anyway as traitors or simply people unwanted on the Polish soil, just like in Czechoslovakia by the Polish government anyway if the Soviets didn't take care of it first. Also in my opinion Poland should ave actually received even more lands from Germany, more precisely Sorbian Lusatia and the entire Belt area. The Lusatians Slavs were left under the Germanic boot, and that is not good.

3. Only in Lithuania, big cities in Belarus, and territories nearby Lwów. There was actually an idea of Poland still having Grodno, Brześć and Lwów, but Allies have given it up. And Kresy would not have been fully polonized because of Ukrainian and to a esser degree Belarusian nationalists making terrorist attacks against the Polish population and the state.

4. There are no serious plans of taking Kresy back. This would be a similiar idea to for an example the British trying to re-annect Zimbabwe, because in one moment it had a significant White Anglo-Saxon population. Our government focus on influencing Ukraine in a diplomatic way and aim to create Central European alliance instead of attacking it's neighbours and annecting territory just becasue 80 years ago it had a Polish majority. In my opinion it should care a little more about Poles left in Central Lithuania though, because they are seriously discrimanted and if for an example Poland was acting in the same manner to Polish Germans as Lithuania acts to Lithuanian Poles, we would have been already sanctioned if not invaded.

1. The German government's atrocious actions don't justify committing atrocious actions against innocent civilians.

2. The true Polish government's territorial demands were much more limited and reasonable. You seem to view shrinking Germany as much as possible as desirable.

3. The Allies betrayed the Poles to the Soviets, I completely agree. More and more Polish settlement would have eventually reduced the Ruthenians to a very small minority.

4. In 1800, there were no serious plans for Jews to take Palestine back. Things can change.

[Veslan]

1. The German government's atrocious actions don't justify committing atrocious actions against innocent civilians.

2. The true Polish government's territorial demands were much more limited and reasonable. You seem to view shrinking Germany as much as possible as desirable.

3. The Allies betrayed the Poles to the Soviets, I completely agree. More and more Polish settlement would have eventually reduced the Ruthenians to a very small minority.

4. In 1800, there were no serious plans for Jews to take Palestine back. Things can change.

1. It does. The German government is an instution representing the German people. And in the case of Prussia the majority of people voted NSDAP.

2. Yes, Germany had mostly negative impact on Europe. This is why I think it should have much weaker position than it does have today.

3. No they would not. Have you read about Volhynia massacre? This is what would happen to Poles on a much bigger scale if we have not lost Kresy.

4. Jews didn't have a state, while Poles of today do have a state. What's more annecting an underdevelopped region instead of turning our sight to the developped regions in the west is pointless. If Poland deserves more land, then on the west. Especially the Lusatian region I have already mentioned.

[Bobby Martnen]

1. It does. The German government is an instution representing the German people. And in the case of Prussia the majority of people voted NSDAP.

2. Yes, Germany had mostly negative impact on Europe. This is why I think it should have much weaker position than it does have today.

3. No they would not. Have you read about Volhynia massacre? This is what would happen to Poles on a much bigger scale if we have not lost Kresy.

4. Jews didn't have a state, while Poles of today do have a state. What's more annecting an underdevelopped region instead of turning our sight to the developped regions in the west is pointless. If Poland deserves more land, then on the west. Especially the Lusatian region I have already mentioned.

1. If you ethnically cleanse people, you have no moral high ground. The goal of the allies should have been liberty and justice, not revenge.

2. Germany has had its bad times (1933-1945 and more recently Merkel/EU), but otherwise has contributed greatly to Europe and the world.

3. I'm well aware of the Volhynia massacre. That doesn't change the fact that interwar Polonization was fairly successful, and would have continued to be successful. Ruthenian terrorists would have been caught eventually and destroyed, just like how there is no more terrorism in Northern Ireland.

4. Germany already lost 1/4 of their country, isn't that enough for you?

[Veslan]

1. If you ethnically cleanse people, you have no moral high ground. The goal of the allies should have been liberty and justice, not revenge.

2. Germany has had its bad times (1933-1945 and more recently Merkel/EU), but otherwise has contributed greatly to Europe and the world.

3. I'm well aware of the Volhynia massacre. That doesn't change the fact that interwar Polonization was fairly successful, and would have continued to be successful. Ruthenian terrorists would have been caught eventually and destroyed, just like how there is no more terrorism in Northern Ireland.

4. Germany already lost 1/4 of their country, isn't that enough for you?

1. The goal of allies was liberty, justice and rebalancing Europe, this is why they gave us recovered territories.

2. Nowadays they don't have bad times, at least not in an economical way, this is why they are still dangerous and deserve to lose more lands for better balance in Europe.

3. It was not succesful, and would sooner or later end in a rebellion. And there is no terrorism in Northern Ireland because it's a part of the EU just like the Republic of Ireland and it doesn't change much if they are part of Britain or not.

4. No, they are still too powerful, therefore too dangerous. Also they opress and discriminate my Sorbian Slavic brothers, who btw. in 1945 prefered to join Poland, but the allies thought that Germany has been already punished enough, sadly they were wrong.

[Peterski]

As of year 1404 the share of Old Prussians among rural population was 35-40% in western parts of East Prussia, 50% in northern part of the Bishopric of Ermland, 75% in southern part of the Bishopric of Ermland, 90% in Natangia, 100% in Sambia.

Sambia Peninsula was where Old Prussian language survived until the early 1700s.

[Silver Lining]

First of all, Poland wanted war, too. Second, the massacres the Poles commited after WW2 were simply sadistic and born (sawing women apart, stuffing puppes into the ripped opened bellies of pregnant women) out their inferiority complex of getting even (first massacre was actualyl three days after the war started, a massacre that seems to have been planned in advance). And third, the USSR only took back the territories the Poles stole in early 1920s(?). Poland = no victim. There is a reason why the French and most of the European people didn't give a fuck at all when Poland got attacked. Poland attacked Germany, the USSR, took part in the end of Czechoslovakia, provoked the Lithuanians multiple times, and heavily surpressed the German Protestant and Ukrainian Orthodox communities (violating the Little Treaty of Versailles, which said that all ethnic groups had to have the same rights).

Deal with it, everything I have written is true.

[Peterski]

Second, the massacres the Poles commited after WW2 were simply sadistic

There is no actual evidence that any of that happened. It was German propaganda just like about Czech massacres:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hprV2nQRvbc

[Peterski]

And third, the USSR only took back the territories the Poles stole in early 1920s(?).

That's wrong, the USSR took also Eastern Galicia which was never Russian, it was Austrian before World War 1.

Lwow was never a Russian city. It was Polish for centuries and then it was Austrian after the Partitions of Poland:

http://s1.postimg.org/67d3le1zz/Zabory.png

[Token]

Luckily Prussia was abolished, or else Germans would have been eventually contaminated by inferior blood.