Bronze Age Irish GEDmatch result.

[Sikeliot]

Someone posted this. It is incredible to me how close they are to German, Dutch, English, Irish. These similarities must predate the introduction of Celtic and Germanic languages.

Bronze Age from Rathlin Island, Co. Antrim, Ireland, an Irish proto-Celt?

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 32.45
2 North_Sea 31.58
3 Baltic 12.95
4 Eastern_Euro 11.65
5 West_Asian 3.29
6 South_Asian 3.17
7 Amerindian 1.87
8 Sub-Saharan 1.59
9 West_Med 1.39
10 Red_Sea 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_German 7.71
2 Danish 8.22
3 Irish 8.29
4 West_Scottish 8.61
5 North_Dutch 9.59
6 Southeast_English 9.62
7 Orcadian 10.88
8 Southwest_English 11.43
9 Norwegian 11.78
10 Swedish 12.03
11 South_Dutch 12.1
12 North_Swedish 12.51
13 West_Norwegian 12.98
14 Southwest_Finnish 14
15 East_German 14.55
16 West_German 14.87
17 Austrian 16.65
18 French 17.07
19 Finnish 17.76
20 Hungarian 18.8

[Coolguy1]

Interesting, so in other words it seems that the introduction of indo-European languages into the area had a minimal genetic impact.

[Sikeliot]

Interesting, so in other words it seems that the introduction of indo-European languages into the area had a minimal genetic impact.

Well this person could have spoken an Indo-European language, we do not know. But not a Celtic one yet most likely.

[Coolguy1]

Well this person could have spoken an Indo-European language, we do not know. But not a Celtic one yet most likely.

Id like to see his haplogroup, before the arrival of indoeuropean languages what do you think the inhabitants of ireland were like, Sardinian?

[Lucas]

Someone posted this. It is incredible to me how close they are to German, Dutch, English, Irish. These similarities must predate the introduction of Celtic and Germanic languages.

Bronze Age from Rathlin Island, Co. Antrim, Ireland, an Irish proto-Celt?



K13?

[Damião de Góis]

His sub-saharan is due to trans-atlantic slavery.

[Peterski]

Interesting, so in other words it seems that the introduction of indo-European languages into the area had a minimal genetic impact.

Nope - that Rathlin Islander already spoke Indo-European.

This is a Pre-Indo-European Irish (Ballynahatty, Co. Down):

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 43.2
2 Atlantic 32.67
3 North_Sea 8.68
4 East_Med 6.79
5 Red_Sea 3.22
6 Baltic 2.84
7 Northeast_African 1.36
8 Sub-Saharan 0.81
9 Southeast_Asian 0.43

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sardinian 14.46
2 Spanish_Andalucia 20.06
3 Spanish_Aragon 20.23
4 Spanish_Cantabria 20.49
5 Southwest_French 20.84
6 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 20.86
7 French_Basque 21.56
8 Spanish_Valencia 21.58
9 Spanish_Extremadura 22.8
10 Spanish_Murcia 23.18
11 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 23.36
12 Portuguese 23.64
13 Spanish_Cataluna 24.17
14 Spanish_Galicia 24.56
15 North_Italian 24.75
16 Tuscan 28.59
17 French 31.7
18 West_Sicilian 32.56
19 Greek 34.38
20 Italian_Abruzzo 34.65

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 61.4% Sardinian + 38.6% French_Basque @ 6.44
2 63% Sardinian + 37% Southwest_French @ 9.54
3 62.2% Sardinian + 37.8% Spanish_Aragon @ 9.58
4 62.8% Sardinian + 37.2% Spanish_Cantabria @ 9.77
5 63.9% Sardinian + 36.1% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 10.12
6 65.7% Sardinian + 34.3% Spanish_Valencia @ 10.65
7 63.6% Sardinian + 36.4% Spanish_Andalucia @ 10.75
8 68.7% Sardinian + 31.3% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 10.99
9 70.2% Sardinian + 29.8% Spanish_Cataluna @ 11.25
10 69.2% Sardinian + 30.8% Spanish_Murcia @ 11.31
11 68.9% Sardinian + 31.1% Spanish_Extremadura @ 11.37
12 82.1% Sardinian + 17.9% Irish @ 11.44
13 82.4% Sardinian + 17.6% West_Scottish @ 11.49
14 80.7% Sardinian + 19.3% Southwest_English @ 11.51
15 81.6% Sardinian + 18.4% Southeast_English @ 11.55
16 82.9% Sardinian + 17.1% Orcadian @ 11.62
17 70.7% Sardinian + 29.3% Portuguese @ 11.68
18 72.2% Sardinian + 27.8% Spanish_Galicia @ 11.86
19 83.6% Sardinian + 16.4% Danish @ 11.91
20 80.6% Sardinian + 19.4% South_Dutch @ 11.92

Similarity to modern populations:

http://linearpopulationmodel.blogspot.com/2016/01/irish-ancient-dna-from-rathlin-island.html

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QTTKmZFyLZk/VotKL3mFgAI/AAAAAAAAB88/5ZC9bJ3Am1Q/s1600/Bally.PNG

[Coolguy1]

Nope - that Rathlin Islander already spoke Indo-European.

This is a Pre-Indo-European Irish (Ballynahatty, Co. Down):

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 43.2
2 Atlantic 32.67
3 North_Sea 8.68
4 East_Med 6.79
5 Red_Sea 3.22
6 Baltic 2.84
7 Northeast_African 1.36
8 Sub-Saharan 0.81
9 Southeast_Asian 0.43

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sardinian 14.46
2 Spanish_Andalucia 20.06
3 Spanish_Aragon 20.23
4 Spanish_Cantabria 20.49
5 Southwest_French 20.84
6 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 20.86
7 French_Basque 21.56
8 Spanish_Valencia 21.58
9 Spanish_Extremadura 22.8
10 Spanish_Murcia 23.18
11 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 23.36
12 Portuguese 23.64
13 Spanish_Cataluna 24.17
14 Spanish_Galicia 24.56
15 North_Italian 24.75
16 Tuscan 28.59
17 French 31.7
18 West_Sicilian 32.56
19 Greek 34.38
20 Italian_Abruzzo 34.65

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 61.4% Sardinian + 38.6% French_Basque @ 6.44
2 63% Sardinian + 37% Southwest_French @ 9.54
3 62.2% Sardinian + 37.8% Spanish_Aragon @ 9.58
4 62.8% Sardinian + 37.2% Spanish_Cantabria @ 9.77
5 63.9% Sardinian + 36.1% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 10.12
6 65.7% Sardinian + 34.3% Spanish_Valencia @ 10.65
7 63.6% Sardinian + 36.4% Spanish_Andalucia @ 10.75
8 68.7% Sardinian + 31.3% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 10.99
9 70.2% Sardinian + 29.8% Spanish_Cataluna @ 11.25
10 69.2% Sardinian + 30.8% Spanish_Murcia @ 11.31
11 68.9% Sardinian + 31.1% Spanish_Extremadura @ 11.37
12 82.1% Sardinian + 17.9% Irish @ 11.44
13 82.4% Sardinian + 17.6% West_Scottish @ 11.49
14 80.7% Sardinian + 19.3% Southwest_English @ 11.51
15 81.6% Sardinian + 18.4% Southeast_English @ 11.55
16 82.9% Sardinian + 17.1% Orcadian @ 11.62
17 70.7% Sardinian + 29.3% Portuguese @ 11.68
18 72.2% Sardinian + 27.8% Spanish_Galicia @ 11.86
19 83.6% Sardinian + 16.4% Danish @ 11.91
20 80.6% Sardinian + 19.4% South_Dutch @ 11.92

Similarity to modern populations:

http://linearpopulationmodel.blogspot.com/2016/01/irish-ancient-dna-from-rathlin-island.html

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QTTKmZFyLZk/VotKL3mFgAI/AAAAAAAAB88/5ZC9bJ3Am1Q/s1600/Bally.PNG

Very interesting, very Sardinian like.

[Peterski]

Very interesting, very Sardinian like.

Taxonomy - Gracile Med?:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?212938-Classify-Megalithic-Irish-(is-she-Gracile-Med-)&p=4462764&viewfull=1#post4462764


K13?

Kit number: M232268

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 49.94
2 Baltic 27.52
3 West_Asian 7.16
4 West_Med 6.48
5 South_Asian 3.4
6 Amerindian 2.2
7 Sub-Saharan 1.91
8 Red_Sea 1.06
9 Siberian 0.34

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Norwegian 5.46
2 Swedish 5.89
3 Danish 6
4 North_Dutch 6.44
5 North_German 6.51
6 Irish 7.41
7 Orcadian 7.79
8 West_Scottish 8.03
9 Southeast_English 9.92
10 Southwest_English 10.55
11 North_Swedish 10.93
12 South_Dutch 12.97
13 West_German 13.32
14 East_German 15.24
15 Austrian 15.66
16 Southwest_Finnish 18.81
17 French 18.84
18 Hungarian 19.16
19 South_Polish 22.48
20 Polish 23.99

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 94.7% Norwegian + 5.3% Brahmin_UP @ 4.14
2 94.3% Norwegian + 5.7% Punjabi_Jat @ 4.15
3 95.1% Norwegian + 4.9% Gujarati @ 4.18
4 95.1% Norwegian + 4.9% Kshatriya @ 4.18
5 95% Norwegian + 5% Sindhi @ 4.24
6 95.6% Norwegian + 4.4% Kanjar @ 4.25
7 95.8% Norwegian + 4.2% Kurumba @ 4.26
8 94.5% Norwegian + 5.5% Kalash @ 4.26
9 95.8% Norwegian + 4.2% Velamas @ 4.27
10 96% Norwegian + 4% Piramalai @ 4.27
11 95.6% Norwegian + 4.4% Dharkar @ 4.29
12 95.9% Norwegian + 4.1% North_Kannadi @ 4.29
13 95.9% Norwegian + 4.1% Dusadh @ 4.29
14 95.7% Norwegian + 4.3% Uttar_Pradesh @ 4.29
15 95.8% Norwegian + 4.2% Kol @ 4.3
16 94.7% Norwegian + 5.3% Burusho @ 4.31
17 94.7% Norwegian + 5.3% Pathan @ 4.31
18 95.4% Norwegian + 4.6% Bangladeshi @ 4.33
19 96.1% Norwegian + 3.9% Sakilli @ 4.33
20 96.1% Norwegian + 3.9% Chamar @ 4.34

[de Burgh II]

It is quite interesting when you gather all the genomes together that helps shed some light on what "pre-Indo-Europeanized"/pre-Bronze Age Western Europeans were like before they were influenced by Celtic tribes moving into the British Isles from Central Europe along with Central European Bell Beakers who were "Indo-Europeanized" as well.

From the looks of it, it would seem that Western Europeans during this time mostly had Neolithic Farmer and WHG ancestry derived autosomally when you account for the Bellynatty gedmatch sample that coincides with the Neolithic period in Britain:


Ballynahatty

The Ballynahatty individual was a Neolithic woman from an early megalithic passage-like grave in Ballynahatty, County Down, Ireland, whose remains have been dated to between 3343-3020 years cal BC. DNA was extracted from the petrous portion of the temporal bone. The authors state that she had a genome of predominantly near-eastern origin and that she also had some hunter gatherer ancestry. The data is uploaded to GEDmatch as kit F999805. A one-to-many search reveals a surprising number of matches with living people.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-QeByKjuxj08/VvZIW2iyD9I/AAAAAAAAAAM/W9PimutySaQ_uyKURGoaws1UytbxN5vIw/s320/Ballynahatty%2Beye%2Bcolour.jpg

http://archaicdna.blogspot.com/

Eurogenes k15:
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 45.51
2 Atlantic 32.35
3 North_Sea 9.27
4 East_Med 6.91
5 Red_Sea 3.00
6 Baltic 2.31


Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Sardinian @ 16.120081
2 Spanish_Andalucia @ 24.401220
3 Spanish_Aragon @ 24.533072
4 Spanish_Cantabria @ 24.811859
5 Southwest_French @ 25.216400
6 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 25.267563
7 Spanish_Valencia @ 26.053078
8 French_Basque @ 26.163902
9 Spanish_Extremadura @ 27.390713
10 Spanish_Murcia @ 27.829931
11 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 28.075811
12 Portuguese @ 28.322252
13 Spanish_Cataluna @ 28.903093
14 Spanish_Galicia @ 29.345551
15 North_Italian @ 29.582592
16 Tuscan @ 34.019516
17 French @ 37.363857
18 West_Sicilian @ 38.699066
19 Mozabite_Berber @ 40.491131
20 Greek @ 40.752876

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% French_Basque +50% Sardinian @ 10.080624


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% French_Basque +25% Sardinian +25% Sardinian @ 10.080624


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 French_Basque + Sardinian + Sardinian + Sardinian @ 9.388393

Eurogenes ANE k7:
Population
ANE -
ASE -
WHG-UHG 60.48
East_Eurasian 2.00
West_African 0.39
East_African 1.26
ENF 35.86

Whereas the three Rathlin samples seem to coincide with considerable Steppe ancestry via Britain's early Bronze Age from 2500 to 700 BCE:

Rathlin

The Rathlin individuals were Early Bronze Age men from a cist burial on Rathlin Island, County Antrim, Ireland, whose remains have been dated to 2026-1534 years cal BC. DNA was extracted from the petrous portion of the temporal bones. The authors state that they had a Steppe genetic heritage, an indication of large European population upheavals over this period.

Rathlin1

Dated to between 2026-1885 years cal BC. The data is uploaded to GEDmatch as kit F999800. A one to many search again reveals a surprising number of matches with living people, one of whom is my uncle.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1FKYkFAsYIo/VvZSaTXaFGI/AAAAAAAAAAc/totQ2xtkNjshhL6cCkVBME_s9XssZjyFQ/s1600/Rathlin1%2Beye%2Bcolour.jpg

Rathlin2

Dated to between 2024-1741 years cal BC. The data is uploaded to GEDmatch as kit F999802. A one to many search reveals four matches with living people.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-BlHB51_N8n4/VvZWgCBVb1I/AAAAAAAAAAo/4T6HAX-7jT4vJrsGF9yLN6bWMbghg84Iw/s1600/Rathlin2%2Beye%2Bcolour.jpg

Rathlin3

Dated to between 1736-1534 years cal BC. The data is uploaded to GEDmatch as kit F999801. A one to many search reveals no current matches with living people, I hope that this encourages Irish DNA researchers who have yet to upload Irish DNA data to do so.

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-WOol_NPUv3M/VvZX28UprLI/AAAAAAAAAAw/eb9AQewqe3YSvBhpyVohmjeig-srhIJqA/s1600/Rathlin3%2Beye%2Bcolour.jpg

http://archaicdna.blogspot.com/

Rathlin 1:

Eurogenes k15:
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 32.97
2 North_Sea 31.86
3 Baltic 13.36
4 Eastern_Euro 12.48
5 West_Asian 3.37
6 South_Asian 2.75
7 Amerindian 1.93
8 West_Med 1.11


Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 North_German @ 8.951317
2 Danish @ 9.470197
3 Irish @ 9.631831
4 West_Scottish @ 9.931098
5 North_Dutch @ 11.123710
6 Southeast_English @ 11.158111
7 Orcadian @ 12.793127
8 Southwest_English @ 13.189925
9 Norwegian @ 13.726197
10 Swedish @ 14.034669
11 South_Dutch @ 14.087485
12 North_Swedish @ 14.322760
13 West_Norwegian @ 15.096670
14 Southwest_Finnish @ 15.755676
15 East_German @ 16.805922
16 West_German @ 17.541922
17 Austrian @ 19.418055
18 French @ 19.881250
19 Finnish @ 20.094070
20 La_Brana-1 @ 21.267290

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +50% North_German @ 8.803784


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +25% La_Brana-1 +25% West_Scottish @ 8.059885


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Irish + La_Brana-1 + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 8.044480

Eurogenes ANE k7:
Population
ANE 19.69
ASE 3.30
WHG-UHG 64.50
East_Eurasian 0.20
West_African 0.59
East_African 0.68
ENF 11.05

Rathlin 2:
Eurogenes k15:
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 41.45
2 Atlantic 32.38
3 Eastern_Euro 10.50
4 Baltic 9.00
5 West_Med 6.57


Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 West_Scottish @ 6.014477
2 Orcadian @ 6.026762
3 Irish @ 7.231737
4 Danish @ 8.250880
5 Southeast_English @ 8.316935
6 North_Dutch @ 8.445674
7 West_Norwegian @ 9.167817
8 Southwest_English @ 9.708560
9 Norwegian @ 10.406804
10 North_German @ 12.171433
11 Swedish @ 12.395818
12 South_Dutch @ 15.307277
13 North_Swedish @ 15.405574
14 West_German @ 16.176350
15 French @ 19.675318
16 East_German @ 21.733984
17 Southwest_Finnish @ 21.827551
18 Finnish @ 25.579117
19 Austrian @ 26.648561
20 Spanish_Cataluna @ 27.385948

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Orcadian +50% West_Scottish @ 5.753956


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Orcadian +25% West_Scottish +25% West_Scottish @ 5.753956


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++
1 Orcadian + Orcadian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 5.753956

Eurogenes ANE k7:
Population
ANE 17.03
ASE -
WHG-UHG 71.44
East_Eurasian -
West_African -
East_African -
ENF 11.53

Rathlin 3:
Eurogenes k15:
Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 43.70
2 Atlantic 33.46
3 Baltic 15.08
4 Eastern_Euro 5.88
5 West_Med 1.87


Finished reading population data. 207 populations found.
15 components mode.

--------------------------------

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 West_Scottish @ 10.780781
2 Irish @ 11.036201
3 Orcadian @ 11.360019
4 North_Dutch @ 11.706367
5 West_Norwegian @ 11.906609
6 Danish @ 12.343957
7 Norwegian @ 13.325996
8 Southeast_English @ 13.364996
9 Swedish @ 13.541843
10 North_German @ 14.867442
11 Southwest_English @ 15.128753
12 North_Swedish @ 17.574894
13 South_Dutch @ 19.987366
14 West_German @ 20.202303
15 Southwest_Finnish @ 23.266420
16 East_German @ 24.511795
17 French @ 24.553219
18 Finnish @ 26.617519
19 La_Brana-1 @ 28.435255
20 Austrian @ 29.076265

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +50% West_Norwegian @ 10.468497


Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Irish +25% West_Norwegian +25% West_Scottish @ 10.459722


Using 4 populations approximation:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +
1 West_Norwegian + West_Scottish + West_Scottish + West_Scottish @ 10.430428

Eurogenes ANE k7:
Population
ANE 14.71
ASE -
WHG-UHG 75.49
East_Eurasian -
West_African -
East_African -
ENF 9.80


In all, from a historical perspective, the "Indo-Europeanization" of Celtic languages to the British Isles via the Central European Celts and Bell Beakers seemed to bring substantial Steppe derived ancestry that minimized neolithic farmer ancestry and accelerated ANE and WHG derived ancestry from the Eurasian Steppes that brought it closer to the greater "Indo-European" family linguistically speaking and genetically it would seem when the Celts got pushed out west via the Germanic tribes from the North that intermixed with them.

[Peterski]

According to this map from the study, Rathlin1 is more similar to Irish than to Scandinavians:

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.full

http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368/F3.large.jpg

[Percivalle]

Someone posted this. It is incredible to me how close they are to German, Dutch, English, Irish. These similarities must predate the introduction of Celtic and Germanic languages.

It's probably that guy who has introduced early Celtic languages in the British Isles, he has already steppe ancestry.

From the paper

"Three Bronze Age individuals from Rathlin Island (2026–1534 cal BC), including one high coverage (10.5×) genome, showed substantial Steppe genetic heritage indicating that the European population upheavals of the third millennium manifested all of the way from southern Siberia to the western ocean. This turnover invites the possibility of accompanying introduction of Indo-European, perhaps early Celtic, language. Irish Bronze Age haplotypic similarity is strongest within modern Irish, Scottish, and Welsh populations, and several important genetic variants that today show maximal or very high frequencies in Ireland appear at this horizon. "

Here are the populations showing who "received the most haplotypes" from Rathlin1.

Scottish 36.512
Ireland 36.313
Welsh 35.745
Germany Austria 33.658
French 32.299
English 32.213
Norwegian 31.425
Orcadian 30.072
Tuscan 29.202
Spanish 28.613
Hungarian 28.995
Belorussian 28.418
North Italian 27.829
Lezgin 27.029
Romanian 26.692
Polish 26.957
Finnish 26.431
Bulgarian 26.21
South Italian 26.127
Russian 25.537
Lithuanian 25.067
East Sicilian 24.689
Iranian 24.648
West Sicilian 24.509
Greek 24.341
Syrian 23.896
Turkish 23.886
Chuvash 23.865
Basque 23.824
Cypriot 23.720
Georgian 23.284
Armenian 23.060
Sardinian 22.989
Jordanian 21.811


http://www.pnas.org/content/113/2/368.abstract

[brennus dux gallorum]

It obviously predates the introduction of celtic and Germanic languages, as both differed very much from each other

If dna was congruent to language, then Irish would be associated with people in southern Europe, but they are not

[Percivalle]

If dna was congruent to language, then Irish would be associated with people in southern Europe, but they are not

Probably that's just me, but I do not understand the meaning of this phrase. Irish as a Gaelic is a Celtic language and proto-Celtic has been formed somewhere in Central Europe, English is a German language. Why Irish people should be associated with people in southern Europe?

[brennus dux gallorum]

Probably that's just me, but I do not understand the meaning of this phrase. Irish as a Gaelic is a Celtic language and proto-Celtic has been formed somewhere in Central Europe, English is a German language. Why Irish people should be associated with people in southern Europe?

Because proto-celtic is related to proto-italic, and according to some authors, to proto-greek too, proto germanic on contrary is related to protoslavic

But in terms of genetics it seems that other procedures occurred, such as assimilation of pre-indoeuropeans

[Jana]

Because proto-celtic is related to proto-italic, and according to some authors, to proto-greek too, proto germanic on contrary is related to protoslavic
But in terms of genetics it seems that other procedures occurred, such as assimilation of pre-indoeuropeans

Germanic languages are related with both Celtic and Italic, while Baltic is related with Slavic (centum vs satem). Irish have lot of steppe ancestry as do all other northern Europeans.

[Percivalle]

Because proto-celtic is related to proto-italic, and according to some authors, to proto-greek too, proto germanic on contrary is related to protoslavic

But in terms of genetics it seems that other procedures occurred, such as assimilation of pre-indoeuropeans

Who are the authors who state that proto-Italic and proto-Celtic are related to proto-Greek? All those languages, I don't know the proto-Greek, clearly were formed in their early steps somewhere in Central Europe.

[Peterski]

If dna was congruent to language, then Irish would be associated with people in southern Europe

LOL, why? Celtic languages originated in Central Europe, not in Southern Europe.

[brennus dux gallorum]

LOL, why? Celtic languages originated in Central Europe, not in Southern Europe.

Along with the languages in southern Europe, IN contrast to northern, created in northeastern Europe

[JQP4545]

Where does the sub-Saharan come from on this?

[Grace O'Malley]

Id like to see his haplogroup, before the arrival of indoeuropean languages what do you think the inhabitants of ireland were like, Sardinian?

All the Rathlin genomes were R1b-L21. One of them was tested down to DF21. Most Irishmen today are R1b-L21. The women tested was a European Farmer (Ballynahatty) but she has quite a bit of hunter gatherer as well. She was 1,000 years before Rathlin. People like Rathlin came to dominate in Ireland and the Early European Farmers pretty much disappeared. There might be a small remnant left in the Irish population today. I'll have to look at the paper Insular Celtic Population Structure again.

[Imperator Biff]

Interesting, so in other words it seems that the introduction of indo-European languages into the area had a minimal genetic impact.

There was near total genetic replacement of the Neolithic EEF population by Central European beakers, from which the Rathlin islanders were derived. Languages don’t just spread themselves.

[FilhoV]

Nope - that Rathlin Islander already spoke Indo-European.

This is a Pre-Indo-European Irish (Ballynahatty, Co. Down):

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 43.2
2 Atlantic 32.67
3 North_Sea 8.68
4 East_Med 6.79
5 Red_Sea 3.22
6 Baltic 2.84
7 Northeast_African 1.36
8 Sub-Saharan 0.81
9 Southeast_Asian 0.43

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sardinian 14.46
2 Spanish_Andalucia 20.06
3 Spanish_Aragon 20.23
4 Spanish_Cantabria 20.49
5 Southwest_French 20.84
6 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 20.86
7 French_Basque 21.56
8 Spanish_Valencia 21.58
9 Spanish_Extremadura 22.8
10 Spanish_Murcia 23.18
11 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 23.36
12 Portuguese 23.64
13 Spanish_Cataluna 24.17
14 Spanish_Galicia 24.56
15 North_Italian 24.75
16 Tuscan 28.59
17 French 31.7
18 West_Sicilian 32.56
19 Greek 34.38
20 Italian_Abruzzo 34.65

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 61.4% Sardinian + 38.6% French_Basque @ 6.44
2 63% Sardinian + 37% Southwest_French @ 9.54
3 62.2% Sardinian + 37.8% Spanish_Aragon @ 9.58
4 62.8% Sardinian + 37.2% Spanish_Cantabria @ 9.77
5 63.9% Sardinian + 36.1% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 10.12
6 65.7% Sardinian + 34.3% Spanish_Valencia @ 10.65
7 63.6% Sardinian + 36.4% Spanish_Andalucia @ 10.75
8 68.7% Sardinian + 31.3% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 10.99
9 70.2% Sardinian + 29.8% Spanish_Cataluna @ 11.25
10 69.2% Sardinian + 30.8% Spanish_Murcia @ 11.31
11 68.9% Sardinian + 31.1% Spanish_Extremadura @ 11.37
12 82.1% Sardinian + 17.9% Irish @ 11.44
13 82.4% Sardinian + 17.6% West_Scottish @ 11.49
14 80.7% Sardinian + 19.3% Southwest_English @ 11.51
15 81.6% Sardinian + 18.4% Southeast_English @ 11.55
16 82.9% Sardinian + 17.1% Orcadian @ 11.62
17 70.7% Sardinian + 29.3% Portuguese @ 11.68
18 72.2% Sardinian + 27.8% Spanish_Galicia @ 11.86
19 83.6% Sardinian + 16.4% Danish @ 11.91
20 80.6% Sardinian + 19.4% South_Dutch @ 11.92

Similarity to modern populations:

http://linearpopulationmodel.blogspot.com/2016/01/irish-ancient-dna-from-rathlin-island.html

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QTTKmZFyLZk/VotKL3mFgAI/AAAAAAAAB88/5ZC9bJ3Am1Q/s1600/Bally.PNG

Wow similar to Sardinians

[FilhoV]

Nope - that Rathlin Islander already spoke Indo-European.

This is a Pre-Indo-European Irish (Ballynahatty, Co. Down):

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 43.2
2 Atlantic 32.67
3 North_Sea 8.68
4 East_Med 6.79
5 Red_Sea 3.22
6 Baltic 2.84
7 Northeast_African 1.36
8 Sub-Saharan 0.81
9 Southeast_Asian 0.43

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sardinian 14.46
2 Spanish_Andalucia 20.06
3 Spanish_Aragon 20.23
4 Spanish_Cantabria 20.49
5 Southwest_French 20.84
6 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 20.86
7 French_Basque 21.56
8 Spanish_Valencia 21.58
9 Spanish_Extremadura 22.8
10 Spanish_Murcia 23.18
11 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 23.36
12 Portuguese 23.64
13 Spanish_Cataluna 24.17
14 Spanish_Galicia 24.56
15 North_Italian 24.75
16 Tuscan 28.59
17 French 31.7
18 West_Sicilian 32.56
19 Greek 34.38
20 Italian_Abruzzo 34.65

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 61.4% Sardinian + 38.6% French_Basque @ 6.44
2 63% Sardinian + 37% Southwest_French @ 9.54
3 62.2% Sardinian + 37.8% Spanish_Aragon @ 9.58
4 62.8% Sardinian + 37.2% Spanish_Cantabria @ 9.77
5 63.9% Sardinian + 36.1% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 10.12
6 65.7% Sardinian + 34.3% Spanish_Valencia @ 10.65
7 63.6% Sardinian + 36.4% Spanish_Andalucia @ 10.75
8 68.7% Sardinian + 31.3% Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon @ 10.99
9 70.2% Sardinian + 29.8% Spanish_Cataluna @ 11.25
10 69.2% Sardinian + 30.8% Spanish_Murcia @ 11.31
11 68.9% Sardinian + 31.1% Spanish_Extremadura @ 11.37
12 82.1% Sardinian + 17.9% Irish @ 11.44
13 82.4% Sardinian + 17.6% West_Scottish @ 11.49
14 80.7% Sardinian + 19.3% Southwest_English @ 11.51
15 81.6% Sardinian + 18.4% Southeast_English @ 11.55
16 82.9% Sardinian + 17.1% Orcadian @ 11.62
17 70.7% Sardinian + 29.3% Portuguese @ 11.68
18 72.2% Sardinian + 27.8% Spanish_Galicia @ 11.86
19 83.6% Sardinian + 16.4% Danish @ 11.91
20 80.6% Sardinian + 19.4% South_Dutch @ 11.92

Similarity to modern populations:

http://linearpopulationmodel.blogspot.com/2016/01/irish-ancient-dna-from-rathlin-island.html

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-QTTKmZFyLZk/VotKL3mFgAI/AAAAAAAAB88/5ZC9bJ3Am1Q/s1600/Bally.PNG


My enduring favorite Oracle (MDLP K23b): Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 French_South ( ) 11.06
2 Spanish_Aragon_IBS ( ) 11.47
3 Spanish_Cantabria_IBS ( ) 11.72
4 Sardinian ( ) 11.86
5 Spanish_Castilla_la_Mancha_IBS ( ) 12.06
6 Spanish_Valencia_IBS ( ) 13.08
7 Spanish_Andalucia_IBS ( ) 14.32
8 Spanish_Murcia_IBS ( ) 16.43
9 Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS ( ) 16.71
10 Spanish_Cataluna_IBS ( ) 16.97
11 Spanish_Galicia_IBS ( ) 17.74
12 Spanish_Pais_Vasco_IBS ( ) 18.15
13 Spanish_Extremadura_IBS ( ) 18.32
14 Spaniard ( ) 18.99
15 Spanish_Canarias_IBS ( ) 22.21
16 Portugese ( ) 23.45
17 Spanish_Baleares_IBS ( ) 23.84
18 Basque_Spanish ( ) 26.56
19 French ( ) 26.89
20 Basque_French ( ) 28.76

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 66.5% Sardinian ( ) + 33.5% Spanish_Canarias_IBS ( ) @ 4.62
2 51% Spanish_Aragon_IBS ( ) + 49% Sardinian ( ) @ 4.71
3 50.4% Spanish_Cantabria_IBS ( ) + 49.6% Sardinian ( ) @ 4.79
4 85.2% Sardinian ( ) + 14.8% Morocco_South ( ) @ 5
5 50.5% Sardinian ( ) + 49.5% Spanish_Castilla_la_Mancha_IBS ( ) @ 5.14
6 87.6% Sardinian ( ) + 12.4% Saharawi ( ) @ 5.15
7 84.2% Sardinian ( ) + 15.8% Algerian ( ) @ 5.26
8 59.9% Sardinian ( ) + 40.1% Spanish_Castilla_y_Leon_IBS ( ) @ 5.32
9 87% Sardinian ( ) + 13% Berber_WGA ( ) @ 5.43
10 61.8% Sardinian ( ) + 38.2% Spanish_Galicia_IBS ( ) @ 5.74
11 86.5% Sardinian ( ) + 13.5% Moroccan ( ) @ 5.76
12 53.1% Sardinian ( ) + 46.9% Spanish_Valencia_IBS ( ) @ 5.78
13 84.3% Sardinian ( ) + 15.7% Shaigi_Sudan ( ) @ 5.78
14 52.3% French_South ( ) + 47.7% Sardinian ( ) @ 5.82
15 84.9% Sardinian ( ) + 15.1% Tunisian ( ) @ 5.82
16 55.9% Sardinian ( ) + 44.1% Spanish_Andalucia_IBS ( ) @ 5.91
17 86.9% Sardinian ( ) + 13.1% Saami ( ) @ 5.96
18 62.8% Sardinian ( ) + 37.2% Spanish_Extremadura_IBS ( ) @ 5.99
19 59.9% Sardinian ( ) + 40.1% Spanish_Murcia_IBS ( ) @ 5.99
20 90% Sardinian ( ) + 10% Mozabite ( ) @ 6.2

[Bellbeaking]

Someone posted this. It is incredible to me how close they are to German, Dutch, English, Irish. These similarities must predate the introduction of Celtic and Germanic languages.

Bronze Age from Rathlin Island, Co. Antrim, Ireland, an Irish proto-Celt?

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Atlantic 32.45
2 North_Sea 31.58
3 Baltic 12.95
4 Eastern_Euro 11.65
5 West_Asian 3.29
6 South_Asian 3.17
7 Amerindian 1.87
8 Sub-Saharan 1.59
9 West_Med 1.39
10 Red_Sea 0.06

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_German 7.71
2 Danish 8.22
3 Irish 8.29
4 West_Scottish 8.61
5 North_Dutch 9.59
6 Southeast_English 9.62
7 Orcadian 10.88
8 Southwest_English 11.43
9 Norwegian 11.78
10 Swedish 12.03
11 South_Dutch 12.1
12 North_Swedish 12.51
13 West_Norwegian 12.98
14 Southwest_Finnish 14
15 East_German 14.55
16 West_German 14.87
17 Austrian 16.65
18 French 17.07
19 Finnish 17.76
20 Hungarian 18.8


Incredible