Proto-Slavs: I1b

[Guapo]

I used to think that R1a was "typical" of the Proto-Slavs, due to the fact that R1a has very high frequencies in modern Slavic populations. I have changed my opinion recently because of a few factors:

- R1a is very old and has a wide distribution in Eurasia
- R1a is found in Indo-Iranians, and may represent an Iranian subtratum in Slavic populations
- R1a is found in the Near East and Western Europe which did not experience Slavic intrusions.

The argument that R1a is associated with Proto-Slavs is weak, because using the same reasoning one could also say that R1b should be associated with Celts, since it is high in populations that are/were Celtic. But, we know that R1b represents the aboriginal Western Europeans (pre-Celts). It's not unlikely that R1b also represents the pre-Slavs in Eastern Europe.

A particular subclade of haplogroup I, namely I1b seems to be frequent in all Slavic populations, but rare elsewhere. Importantly, I1b is not significant outside Europe (where the Slavs didn't go), and it's not significant in most of the Germanic world. But, it is also found at appreciable frequencies in Balts, the linguistic brothers of the Slavs. Furthermore, its diffusion from a Balkan or Central European origin harmonize with the prevalent view of a Central European origin of the Slavs and with mtDNA evidence about the southern Europoid origin of Slavic matrilineages.

As a result, I now think that I1b is more likely to have been typical of the Proto-Slavs, although I must stress that (a) I1b was never exclusively a "Slavic" marker, since Slavic ethnogenesis took place in the 5th-6th century AD, long after the time that I1b originated, and (b) the Proto-Slavs probably also had a high frequency of R1a, but I suspect that I1b is more diagnostic of Slavic heritage than R1a.

[Kayhan Leir]

Interesting theory, a plausible one at that. I also have always found it quite odd that R1a was the "Slavic HG" since it was common in non-Slavs too. However that could be attributed to the Slavs' predecessor, the Sarmatians (that is, if they're considered Slavs' predecessor). I1b is definitely more concentrated compared to R1a where it is spread all over many different peoples unlike I1b.

[Osweo]

I always thought of it as more Balkan/Danubian, myself. How prevalent is it among the NW Slavs? Or among Albanians and Vlachs?

All depends on where you find your Urheimats. I'd see the Iranians and proto Slavs as very close relations at a very early period (before the former went off on their great nomadic adventure), with both sharing R1a as a common inheritance. Do they have distinct sets of subclades?

[Monolith]

It's pre-Indo-European paleobalkan HG, and it's called I2a2 nowadays. Current genetic data suggests it's native to the Balkans since it's most heterogeneous there, i.e. there was enough time for it to differentiate. 5th and 6th century Slavic colonists may have brought a part of it here, as that HG had spread northwards, towards their original urheimat, long before the great migrations started.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253976/bin/gr3.jpg

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2253976/bin/gr4.jpg

[Tomasz]

There is no such thing as "Slavic haplogroup" or "Germanic haplogroup". It would be absurd to suggest that random genetic mutations are synchronized perfectly with formation of ethno-linguistic groups. Haplogroup R1a1a predates formation of Slavic, Iranic or whatever ethno-linguistic group. It's nothing strange in fact that Slavs, Scythians or Tocharians for that matter show high frequencies of R1a1a. Such common haplogroup by no means suggest definite mixing so it's wrong to say that "R1a Slavs are descendants of Scythians".

Ancient Corded racial type that would be considered Proto-Nordid, early Nordid or nordiform Mediterranoid was notable of having high R1a1a frequencies if I remember correctly. I myself support the view that they had definite role in spreading Aryan languages in Europe. As far as I know, earliest Slavs were - as other Indo-Europeans predominantly of this Nordid subrace. It differed slightly from present-day "Hallstatt-Nordids", f.e. they were notably high-skulled and probably not yet fully depigmented.

[Guapo]

The Y-DNA I2a2b haplogroup is strongly correlated with the spread of Slavic languages, as is the subclade R1a1a7

http://www.buildinghistory.org/dista...tml#conclusion

[Foxy]

What I have found about the I1b haplogroup is this:

I1b-M227 (M227) Appears to be limited to a marginally low frequency of approximately 1% among Slavic and Uralic peoples of Eastern Europe; also detected in a single Lebanese man

So, where is it common?

I-M253

Density map of HG I1. The darkest areas approach only around 45% of the population.Main article: Haplogroup I1 (Y-DNA)
Haplogroup I-M253 (M253, M307, P30, P40) displays a very clear frequency gradient, with a peak frequency of approximately 35% among the populations of southern Norway, southwestern Sweden, and Denmark, and rapidly decreasing frequencies toward the edges of the historically Germanic-influenced world. A notable exception is Finland, where frequency in West Finns is up to 40%, and in certain provinces like Satakunta more than 50%.

Outside Fennoscandia, distribution of Haplogroup I-M253 is closely correlated with that of Haplogroup I-M436; but among Scandinavians (including both Germanic and Uralic peoples of the region) nearly all the Haplogroup I Y-chromosomes are I-M253. Another characteristic of the Scandinavian I-M253 Y-chromosomes is their rather low haplotype diversity (STR diversity): a greater variety of Haplogroup I-M253 Y-chromosomes has been found among the French and Italians, despite the much lower overall frequency of Haplogroup I-M253 among the modern French and Italian populations


The haplogroup interesting the Balkanian peninsula isn't I1b but I2a2.

I2a2a-L69.2 (L69.2(=T)/S163.2) Typical of the Balkan populations, especially the populations of Bosnia and Herzegovina and Croatia; also found with high frequency in Moldavia and Romania and high haplotype diversity values, but lower overall frequency, among the populations of Slovakia and the Czech Republic

I-M423
Haplogroup I-M423 is the most frequent Y-chromosome Haplogroup I in Central and Eastern European populations, reaching its peak in the Western Balkans, most notably in Dalmatia (50-60% [1]) and Bosnia-Herzegovina (up to 71% [17], avg. 40-50% [1]). A greater variance of this group has been found in Ireland and Great Britain, but overall frequency is very low (2-3%). Haplogroup I-M423 is virtually absent in Fennoscandia, Western and Southwestern Europe.

And again, Sardinians and Iberos have an other subclade of I.
I-M26
Main article: Haplogroup I-M26 (Y-DNA)
Haplogroup I-M26 is notable for its strong presence in Sardinia. Haplogroup I comprises approximately 40% of all patrilines among the Sardinians, and I-M26 is the predominant type of I among them.

Haplogroup I-M26 is practically absent east of France and Italy.[27], while it is found at low but significant frequencies outside of Sardinia in the Balearic Islands, Castile, the Basque Country, the Pyrenees, southern and western France, and parts of the Maghreb in North Africa, Great Britain, and Ireland. Haplogroup I-M26 appears to be the only subclade of Haplogroup I found among the Basques, but appears to be found at somewhat higher frequencies among the general populations of Castile in Spain and Béarn in France than among the population of ethnic Basques. The M26 mutation is found in native males inhabiting every geographic region where megaliths may be found, including such far-flung and culturally disconnected regions as the Canary Islands, the Balearic Isles, Corsica, Ireland, and Sweden.[27]

The distribution of M26 also mirrors that of the Atlantic Bronze Age cultures, which indicates a potential spread via the obsidian trade or a regular maritime exchange of some of metallurgical products.[27]

I-M26 and M423 are subclades of I2, while Scandinavians, Germans and in lower proportions also French and Italians have subclades of I1.

[Ibericus]

The haplogroup I can't be slavic since the slavs were indo-europeans and the haplogroup I is pre-Indoeuropean.

[hereward]

Guapo is referring to I2a2 (I-M423) which was formerly known as I1b1. Guapo is correct; this Haplogroup, more importantly certain specific subclades of (largely unknown), were part of the Ethnogenesis of the Slav's, along with certain subclades of R1a and to a lesser extent, subclades of various other haplogroups; even some subclades of R1b depending on the Slavic Population one wishes to study.
I2a2 is found in all Slavic Countries at varying frequencies, usually forming the second or third most common Haplogroup encountered. It is also found in non Slavic countries such as Hungary and Romania, there are even ancient clades of I2a2 found at low levels in the British Isles, which has been speculated on Forums to be the residue of the pre-Celtic populations!
As with all Haplogroups, it is the subclades found way down stream that are/ will be important to understanding population movements, not the superclades. For instance, Croatia could have subclades of I2a2 inherited from the pre Slavic populations and Slavic populations, the formers making the majority.
Please remember that the arrival of the Indo Europeans and other events in pre history probably predate the formation of all Meta Ethnicities/Ethnicities in Europe

[Guapo]

Guapo is referring to I2a2 (I-M423) which was formerly known as I1b1. Guapo is correct; this Haplogroup, more importantly certain specific subclades of (largely unknown), were part of the Ethnogenesis of the Slav's, along with certain subclades of R1a and to a lesser extent, subclades of various other haplogroups; even some subclades of R1b depending on the Slavic Population one wishes to study.
I2a2 is found in all Slavic Countries at varying frequencies, usually forming the second or third most common Haplogroup encountered. It is also found in non Slavic countries such as Hungary and Romania, there are even ancient clades of I2a2 found at low levels in the British Isles, which has been speculated on Forums to be the residue of the pre-Celtic populations!
As with all Haplogroups, it is the subclades found way down stream that are/ will be important to understanding population movements, not the superclades. For instance, Croatia could have subclades of I2a2 inherited from the pre Slavic populations and Slavic populations, the formers making the majority.
Please remember that the arrival of the Indo Europeans and other events in pre history probably predate the formation of all Meta Ethnicities/Ethnicities in Europe

My results were the old Y chromosome haplogroup I1b. Today this branch is found distributed in the Balkans and Eastern Europe, and extends further east with Slavic-speaking populations like I stated if people actually read my post, more likely to have been typical of the "Proto-Slavs". Thank you.

[safinator]

I believe this was the haplogroup of the Sarmatians.

[Frederick]

I dont believe in haplogroups beeing "the" haplogroup of ancient people.

"Smith" is ONE english name. I dont think "Smith" is THE name of the ancient English. ;)

And Haplogroups are nothing but surnames.

[Slav]

It was of one variety, 391 = 11. In this spread it reached,
among others, the proto-slavs who according to many sources had their earliest homeland in the Pripet marshes area which I believe are on the Poland/Ukraine/Byelarus border area. Among the proto-slavs a new variety with 391 = 10 was founded and thrived and became competitive with the original 391 = 11 in population. Only in the 5th and 6th century A.D. or so did the Slavs really start to expand in eastern Europe to populate the many places we find them today; westward as far as present-day Eastern Germany, eastward into Russia, and southwestward into the Balkans, Czechoslovakia, etc.

...
The areas of greatest percentage of 391 = 10 variety will be close to the home area up in Poland/Ukraine/Byelarus where it was born.

Down in the Balkans it would seem that where a lot of R1a was brought in by the slavs, I should expect more percentage of the 391 = 10 I1b brought in by the slavs according to this hypothesis.

Ken Nordtvedt

[Duke]

Ken Nordtvedt

... is full of shit.
:D

Slavs are I-E people

[Kanuni]

... is full of shit.
:D

Slavs are I-E people

IE people where not composed solely of R1a or R1b.:D

[Duke]

IE people where not composed solely of R1a or R1b.:D

No, they were R1a, R1b came from anatolia.

R1a brought I-E languages which are spoken in Europe today, so they also brought Slavic one.
Example of non I-E language that is connected with R1b is Basque.
This is easily seen with genetic trace left from India to Europe, thus Indo-European.
Haplogroup I is not found outside of Europe, so it cant be I-E

[Kanuni]

No, they were R1a, R1b came from anatolia.

R1a brought I-E languages which are spoken in Europe today, so they also brought Slavic one.
Example of non I-E language that is connected with R1b is Basque.
This is easily seen with genetic trace left from India to Europe, thus Indo-European.
Haplogroup I is not found outside of Europe, so it cant be I-E

Out of context post.:p

I2a2 was Indo-Europeanized in East Europe earlier and when Slavs settled in Balkans they were largely R1a+I2a2 with some neolithic haplogroups like EV13 in minority.

[Duke]

Out of context post.:p

I2a2 was Indo-Europeanized in East Europe earlier and when Slavs settled in Balkans they were largely R1a+I2a2 with some neolithic haplogroups like EV13 in minority.

Thats pushing it, because I2b is rare in northern Slavs, while its dominant in south ones.

Lets say that 10-20 million people( which would be minimum) moved into balkans in some massive migration, which is also preposterous idea, but then they should have identical picture with northen ones, or northern ones are not Slavs if that premise was true.

I think E came to balkans with Greeks, a first wave in antic times, then inter-Byzantium movement of populace, and rest of it with Ottomans

[safinator]

Thats pushing it, because I2b is rare in northern Slavs, while its dominant in south ones.

Lets say that 10-20 million people( which would be minimum) moved into balkans in some massive migration, which is also preposterous idea, but then they should have identical picture with northen ones, or northern ones are not Slavs if that premise was true.

I think E came to balkans with Greeks, a first wave in antic times, then inter-Byzantium movement of populace, and rest of it with Ottomans
I2a2 center of diversity is in Northern Romania/Southwestern Ukraine so most likely originated there.
About E-V13 it must have likely been there from ancient times since it's mostly Paleobalkanic.

[Slav]

I2a was spread out of the territory of Ukraine (Polesie). This fact correlates with Polesian (and total Ukrainian) concetration.
I2a 20% among Ukrainians.


Ukrainians (1101)
R1a- 39,22
I2a- 20,41
E- 6,95

Balanovsky, Pshenichnov et others.

By the way, Polesie was epicentre of Slavonic ethnogenesis.

[Duke]

I2a2 center of diversity is in Northern Romania/Southwestern Ukraine so most likely originated there.
About E-V13 it must have likely been there from ancient times since it's mostly Paleobalkanic.

E is neolithic at best, and its most frequent, and most diverse HG among north Africans, Moors and such

Abut diversity as core, its an assumption not proven fact, while difference in diversity is minimal anyway.

Still, for instance Herodotus spoke how Illyrians were related to people living at north coast of black sea...

[safinator]

E is neolithic at best, and its most frequent, and most diverse HG among north Africans, Moors and such


I guess you're not good at understanding.

E-V13 is found only in the Balkans. It splited something like 8000 years ago.

[Duke]

I guess you're not good at understanding.

E-V13 is found only in the Balkans. It splited something like 8000 years ago.

Its just different subclade, but then again I2b in the north is of different subclade from ours.

Same difference is in our subcaldes of I2b, as is with E subclades found with moors, and in Balkan.

But lets say all of what you are saying is true, then how can Kosovars be descended from Dardanians??????'


Slavs moved down, and butchered the native population.
Serb core from which they spread, was in Kosovo.


700.
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/700/700.jpg

800.
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/800/800.jpg

they fought with Bulgars and many of them died, but they asked help from Croats, and together we managed to push of Bulgarians off
Later on they spread on other parts.

When ottomans came, battle in Kosovo was huge, and they killed almost everybody there, and what was left Kosovo mostly, was remains of ottoman army, with spared women.

So most of the population of Kosovo would be descendant from ottoman army men, and Serb women( since there Slavs killed Illyrians).

Male heritage there is mostly E hg.

hmm

[Kanuni]

Male heritage there is mostly E hg.

hmm

Again EV13 is just one of the founding haplogroups of ancient Illyrians, they were not solely EV13 homogenous population.EV13 mixed with other haplogroups like J2b and R1b to create the ancient Illyrians.

[Ushtari]

Its just different subclade, but then again I2b in the north is of different subclade from ours.

Same difference is in our subcaldes of I2b, as is with E subclades found with moors, and in Balkan.

But lets say all of what you are saying is true, then how can Kosovars be descended from Dardanians??????'


Slavs moved down, and butchered the native population.
Serb core from which they spread, was in Kosovo.



they fought with Bulgars and many of them died, but they asked help from Croats, and together we managed to push of Bulgarians off
Later on they spread on other parts.

When ottomans came, battle in Kosovo was huge, and they killed almost everybody there, and what was left Kosovo mostly, was remains of ottoman army, with spared women.

So most of the population of Kosovo would be descendant from ottoman army men, and Serb women( since there Slavs killed Illyrians).

Male heritage there is mostly E hg.

hmm
Already been used, already been trashed.

[Slav]

Serb core from which they spread, was in Kosovo.

Common archeological culture of Serbs was formed near Danube, where they mixed with Moravians and lived near (Eastern) Romans. First archeological memorials were found near Singidun (nowadays Belgrad) and nearby districts (see "Археолошки споменици и налазишта у Србиjи. Т. II. Београд, 1956. С. 231; Седов, 1995. С. 333, 335.").

So, near Singidun-Belgrad and in Duklya (except towns) were founded first Serbian settlements (see "Народы I. С. 418–419, 489–491."). The main duke of Sebrs ruled Zagorie and Rashka, and independent one was in Duklya (see Шишић, 1928. С. 313–314).

Serbs lived among Illirians, Vlachs and Greeks so the last ones influenced them and their culture.

The Slavic influence among Serbs is stronger not in Kosovo, but in the North part of Serbia (Voyvodina) and Central Serbia (Shumadia etc.). Those Serbs belong to Carpathian group of populations like many other Slavs - see Sergey Segeda "Antropological structure of Ukrainian people". In his list for the Carpathian group of populations are the most groups of Ukrainians and Croats (except Dalmatians, I guess), some groups of Czechs, Hungarians and Romanians, Poles-Gurals, Eastern Slovaks, Central and Northern Serbs and North-Western Bulgarians. According to him this complex was supposebly formed in Early Meddle Ages.

[Foxy]

I guess you're not good at understanding.

E-V13 is found only in the Balkans. It splited something like 8000 years ago.

:confused:

E-V13 diffusion

http://web.me.com/brewpe/Adam_BrouwerDNA/Adams_Haplogroup_files/E-V13%20concentration.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a2_(E-V13).jpg
http://oi54.tinypic.com/10yqc07.jpg

It is definitely connected to ancient Illirians, but Illirians settled also Southern Italy and partially the Adriatic coast of central Italy.

[safinator]

:confused:

E-V13 diffusion

http://web.me.com/brewpe/Adam_BrouwerDNA/Adams_Haplogroup_files/E-V13%20concentration.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a2_(E-V13).jpg
http://oi54.tinypic.com/10yqc07.jpg

It is definitely connected to ancient Illirians, but Illirians settled also Southern Italy and partially the Adriatic coast of central Italy.
Yep, obviously i meant it's mainly found in the Balkans.

[morski]

Its just different subclade, but then again I2b in the north is of different subclade from ours.

Same difference is in our subcaldes of I2b, as is with E subclades found with moors, and in Balkan.

But lets say all of what you are saying is true, then how can Kosovars be descended from Dardanians??????'


Slavs moved down, and butchered the native population.
Serb core from which they spread, was in Kosovo.


700.
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/700/700.jpg

800.
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/800/800.jpg

they fought with Bulgars and many of them died, but they asked help from Croats, and together we managed to push of Bulgarians off
Later on they spread on other parts.

When ottomans came, battle in Kosovo was huge, and they killed almost everybody there, and what was left Kosovo mostly, was remains of ottoman army, with spared women.

So most of the population of Kosovo would be descendant from ottoman army men, and Serb women( since there Slavs killed Illyrians).

Male heritage there is mostly E hg.

hmm

Complete bullshit. Kosovo was never Serbian. Their core area was Zagorie - Raska, Bosnia and Primorie - Zahulmije (with the Croats), Travunija, Duklja(Zeta).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/Serb_lands04.png

<a title="By Jaspe [Public domain], via Wikimedia Commons" href="http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File%3ASrbsko_IX_sr.svg"><img width="512" alt="Srbsko IX sr" src="//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c9/Srbsko_IX_sr.svg/512px-Srbsko_IX_sr.svg.png"/></a>

[Sinclair]

I used to think that R1a was "typical" of the Proto-Slavs, due to the fact that R1a has very high frequencies in modern Slavic populations. I have changed my opinion recently because of a few factors:

- R1a is very old and has a wide distribution in Eurasia
- R1a is found in Indo-Iranians, and may represent an Iranian subtratum in Slavic populations
- R1a is found in the Near East and Western Europe which did not experience Slavic intrusions.

The argument that R1a is associated with Proto-Slavs is weak, because using the same reasoning one could also say that R1b should be associated with Celts, since it is high in populations that are/were Celtic. But, we know that R1b represents the aboriginal Western Europeans (pre-Celts). It's not unlikely that R1b also represents the pre-Slavs in Eastern Europe.

A particular subclade of haplogroup I, namely I1b seems to be frequent in all Slavic populations, but rare elsewhere. Importantly, I1b is not significant outside Europe (where the Slavs didn't go), and it's not significant in most of the Germanic world. But, it is also found at appreciable frequencies in Balts, the linguistic brothers of the Slavs. Furthermore, its diffusion from a Balkan or Central European origin harmonize with the prevalent view of a Central European origin of the Slavs and with mtDNA evidence about the southern Europoid origin of Slavic matrilineages.

As a result, I now think that I1b is more likely to have been typical of the Proto-Slavs, although I must stress that (a) I1b was never exclusively a "Slavic" marker, since Slavic ethnogenesis took place in the 5th-6th century AD, long after the time that I1b originated, and (b) the Proto-Slavs probably also had a high frequency of R1a, but I suspect that I1b is more diagnostic of Slavic heritage than R1a.

Actually no. HG I has been in Europe long before any "Slavics" showed up there. If there was one HG which was representative of Slavic expansion and settlement in Europe, it was R1a, which certainly would have absorbed many pre-existing I's on the Balkan Peninsula. The Balkan Peninsula was a "refugia", an area of Paleolithic refuge during the LGM, during which hg I was present; long, long, long before any "slavic" anything showed up, which came a very long time later from the Indo-Aryan migrants, and the ancient Caucuses/Steppes culture.

[Bakura]

I think ancient Slavs had pure Nordic ancestry and presence of any non-Nordish phenotypes at modern Slavs are result of intermixing between Slavs and another non-Slavic peoples.

[hajduk]

I think ancient Slavs had pure Nordic ancestry and presence of any non-Nordish phenotypes at modern Slavs are result of intermixing between Slavs and another non-Slavic peoples.

unfortunately today slavs are racially bastardizated with Baltids, Pontids, Dinarics, etc :D

[Bakura]

unfortunately today slavs are racially bastardizated with Baltids, Pontids, Dinarics, etc :D

Baltids belongs to Nordish racial spectrum.

http://www.racialcompact.com/nordishrace.html