German-speaking Cimbrians from Lessina in Verona, Italy [Archive] - The Apricity Forum: A European Cultural Community

Lucas

06-23-2017, 03:09 PM

The earliest record of the movement of Bavarians to Verona dates to ca. 1050 (Bayerische Staatsbibliothek Cod. lat. 4547). The settlement continued during the 11th and 12th centuries.

A theory of Lombardic origin of the Zimbern was proposed in 1948 by Bruno Schweizer and again in 1974 by Alfonso Bellotto.[4] The debate was again revived in 2004 by Cimbrian linguist Ermenegildo Bidese.[5] The majority of linguists remains committed to the hypothesis of medieval (11th to 12th century) immigration.[6]

The presence of Germanic-speaking communities in Italy was discovered in the 14th century by the Italian humanists, who associated them with the Cimbri who arrived in the region in the 2nd century BC. This is the likely origin of the current endonym (Zimbar). An alternative hypothesis derives the name from a term for "carpenter", cognate with English timber (lit. "timberer").

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbrian_language

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Zimbern.png

I uploaded to Gedmatch few Cimbrian genomes (not end yet, there will be 36). All from Lessina in Verona, Italy.

Some are interesting...

This one is most Germanic.

Amerindian 0
Arabian 2,87
Armenian 0
Basque 3,73
Central_African 0
Central_Euro 6,24
East_African 0
East_Asian 0
East_Balkan 6,92
East_Central_Asian 0,23
East_Central_Euro 10,71
East_Med 5,96
Eastern_Euro 0,46
Fennoscandian 2,92
French 4,72
Iberian 8,13
Indo0Chinese 0
Italian 13,97
Malayan 0
Near_Eastern 2,99
North_African 0
North_Atlantic 9,24
North_Caucasian 0
North_Sea 13,17
Northeast_African 0
Oceanian 0,6
Omotic 0
Pygmy 0
Siberian 0
South_Asian 0
South_Central_Asian 0
South_Chinese 0
Volga0Ural 0,39
West_African 0
West_Caucasian 0
West_Med 6,74

https://s3.postimg.org/lkhtuqvs3/cimbr.jpg

Admix4 gone crazy but is showing evident Germanic admixture.

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 IT_Veneto @ 11,766664
2 South_Germany @ 12,182471
3 Swiss_German @ 12,693688
4 IT_Friuli @ 12,896785
5 German_West @ 12,928033
6 Austria_Tyrol @ 13,153015
7 Austria @ 13,8478
8 Macedonia_FYROM @ 13,953444
9 West_Serbian @ 14,762345
10 Montenegro @ 14,974083
11 Serbian @ 15,068267
12 Romania_SW @ 15,124449
13 IT_Piedmont @ 15,23755
14 Albania_Montenegro @ 15,30034
15 Romania_Central @ 15,342262
16 Romania_SE @ 15,38344
17 South_Romania @ 15,454483
18 Bosnian @ 15,522113
19 Croatian @ 15,635734
20 Hungary @ 15,827859
330 iterations.

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 Albania_North+SE_England @ 8,629309
2 Albania_North+Central_Dutch @ 8,70577
3 Kosovo+SE_England @ 8,843956
4 Greek_Macedonia+SE_England @ 8,845993
5 Albania_Montenegro+SE_England @ 8,848762
6 Albania_North+German_North @ 8,904113
7 Kosovo+Central_Dutch @ 8,919005
8 Albania_North+North_Dutch @ 8,944017
9 Albania_South+SE_England @ 9,064257
10 Albania_North+South_Dutch @ 9,10854

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% IT_Veneto +25% Romania_SW +25% North_Dutch @ 8,416227
2 50% SE_England +25% GR_Thrace +25% Albania_North @ 8,446895
3 50% Albania_North +25% North_Dutch +25% SE_England @ 8,449906
4 50% SE_England +25% Sicily_Ragusa +25% Romania_SW @ 8,500778
5 50% SE_England +25% Romania_SW +25% Albania_South @ 8,503735
6 50% IT_Veneto +25% GR_Central +25% North_Dutch @ 8,508368
7 50% SE_England +25% GR_Thrace +25% Albania_Montenegro @ 8,523577
8 50% SE_England +25% GR_Thrace +25% Kosovo @ 8,525214
9 50% IT_Veneto +25% GR_Thrace +25% North_Dutch @ 8,53437
10 50% Albania_North +25% Central_Dutch +25% SE_England @ 8,543842

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 FR_Corsica+Albania_South+North_Dutch+Pl_north @ 8,208543
2 FR_Corsica+Albania_South+North_Dutch+PL_Wielkopols ka @ 8,221136
3 FR_Corsica+Albania_North+Central_Dutch+Pl_north @ 8,231159
4 FR_Corsica+Albania_South+Central_Dutch+Pl_north @ 8,231248
5 FR_Corsica+Albania_North+North_Dutch+PL_Wielkopols ka @ 8,277928
6 FR_Corsica+Albania_North+North_Dutch+Pl_north @ 8,280381
7 FR_Corsica+Albania_South+South_Dutch+Pl_north @ 8,281631
8 FR_Corsica+Albania_North+South_Dutch+Pl_north @ 8,287219
9 FR_Corsica+Albania_North+Central_Dutch+PL_Wielkopo lska @ 8,351734
10 GR_Thrace+FR_Corsica+SE_England+PL_Wielkopolska @ 8,359039

Gaussian method.
Noise dispersion set to 0,130062

Using 1 population approximation:
1 IT_Friuli @ 5,127868
2 IT_Piedmont @ 5,49684
3 IT_Veneto @ 5,816402
4 IT_North @ 5,940023
5 Swiss_Italian @ 6,026563
6 Macedonia_FYROM @ 6,256788
7 West_Serbian @ 6,316644
8 Serbian @ 6,329545
9 Spain_Canarians @ 6,366477
10 IT_Aosta @ 6,393126
11 Bosnian @ 6,615817
12 Albania_Montenegro @ 6,664674
13 Croatian @ 6,794473
14 Spain_Baleares @ 6,90542
15 Swiss_German @ 6,909936
16 Romania_Central @ 6,922317
17 Romania_SW @ 6,926643
18 Kosovo @ 6,931124
19 Albania_North @ 7,008223
20 South_Romania @ 7,05714
330 iterations.

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 GR_Central+SE_England @ 4,925852
2 FR_Corsica+PL_Wielkopolska @ 4,934636
3 GR_Central+South_Dutch @ 4,974656
4 FR_Corsica+German_East @ 4,990261
5 Greek_Peloponnes+South_Dutch @ 5,003142
6 IT_Tuscany+German_East @ 5,006243
7 GR_Central+France_NorthWest @ 5,006609
8 FR_Corsica+Pl_north @ 5,012481
9 Greek_Macedonia+France_NorthWest @ 5,017276
10 GR_Central+Central_Dutch @ 5,018177

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% IT_Aosta +25% GR_Central +25% PL_Wielkopolska @ 4,733222
2 50% France_Central +25% GR_Central +25% PL_Wielkopolska @ 4,77766
3 50% IT_Aosta +25% GR_Central +25% Pl_Kashubians @ 4,778464
4 50% IT_Veneto +25% GR_Central +25% North_Dutch @ 4,78086
5 50% IT_Aosta +25% Greek_Peloponnes +25% PL_Wielkopolska @ 4,802628
6 50% France_Central +25% Greek_Peloponnes +25% PL_Wielkopolska @ 4,804631
7 50% France_Central +25% GR_Crete +25% PL_Wielkopolska @ 4,808805
8 50% IT_Piedmont +25% GR_Central +25% North_Dutch @ 4,811462
9 50% IT_Aosta +25% GR_Central +25% Pl_north @ 4,812505
10 50% IT_Friuli +25% France_South +25% PL_Wielkopolska @ 4,814089

Using 4 populations approximation:
1 GR_Central+Swiss_Italian+France_Central+PL_Wielkop olska @ 4,712531
2 GR_Central+IT_Aosta+France_Central+PL_Wielkopolska @ 4,724523
3 GR_Central+Swiss_Italian+France_South+PL_Wielkopol ska @ 4,727161
4 GR_Central+IT_Aosta+Swiss_Italian+PL_Wielkopolska @ 4,730812
5 GR_Central+IT_Aosta+IT_Aosta+PL_Wielkopolska @ 4,733222
6 Greek_Peloponnes+Swiss_Italian+France_South+PL_Wie lkopolska @ 4,734428
7 GR_Central+Swiss_Italian+France_Central+Pl_Kashubi ans @ 4,739648
8 GR_Central+Swiss_Italian+France_NorthWest+PL_Wielk opolska @ 4,747123
9 GR_Central+Swiss_Italian+PL_Wielkopolska+NE-England @ 4,749381
10 GR_Central+FR_Corsica+PL_Wielkopolska+NE-England @ 4,751585

nMonte restricted
Albania_South 20.90
SE_England 14.55
North_Dutch 14.45
PL_Sudovia 9.70
Central_Dutch 9.30
IT_Sardinia 8.80
IT_Veneto 8.45
GR_Thrace 8.05
Saudi 3.65
Albania_North 2.15

nMonte unrestricted
Albania_South 21.05
SE_England 14.40
North_Dutch 14.30
PL_Sudovia 9.70
Central_Dutch 9.60
IT_Sardinia 8.80
IT_Veneto 8.20
GR_Thrace 7.80
Saudi 3.65
Albania_North 2.20
Melanesian 0.20
France_SW 0.10

[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"
IT_Veneto South_Germany Swiss_German IT_Friuli German_West
11.76196 12.17652 12.69159 12.88987 12.92319
Austria_Tyrol Austria Macedonia_FYROM
13.14086 13.83192 13.92948

Percivalle

06-23-2017, 03:20 PM

Cimbrians surely mixed with local population but at least 25% of genome is still very Germanic in this one.

1 50% IT_Veneto +25% Romania_SW +25% North_Dutch @ 8,416227

Moving on from groups to single populations, we observed the strongest signals of isolation in Sauris and Sappada (...) By contrast, the weakest signal of isolation is provided by the Cimbrians, who show the lowest values for all measures (...) A high level of genetic drift can be observed for the entire Sardinian branch, and, even more pronounced for single German-speaking islands of Sappada, Sauris and Timau. Interestingly, the Cimbrians from Lessinia are more closely related to the Northern Italians and are located in the tree upstream to all northern and western European populations. (...) A breakdown of the cultural barrier might account for the behavior of Cimbrians. In fact, only a limited number of individuals is today able to use the Cimbrian language, a situation in contrast with the persistence of the original linguistic features in other German speaking communities. This form of cultural assimilation, which started in the middle of the 16th century, probably increased the permeability of Cimbrians to gene flow from neighbouring populations.

In the case of the German-speaking islands, signals of heterogeneity among populations seem to prevail. Sappada, Sauris and Timau were found to be clearly different from each other both regarding intra and inter-population diversity. High genetic distances among Sauris, Sappada and Timau have already been observed with unilinear markers9, a pattern that is probably associated with the occurrence of a form of social behaviour which we termed “local ethnicity”. Despite their closely related languages and shared traditions, members of Alpine linguistic islands tend to identify their ancestry with their own village rather than considering themselves as part of the same ethnic group9. Such strong territoriality when defining ethnic identities and boundaries may have played a role in marriage strategies, decreasing the genetic exchange among the three linguistic islands. This “isolation among isolates” might have also led to the genomic structure of each of them evolving independently.