View Full Version : Farewell to eastern Europe
Farewell to eastern Europe (http://www.economist.com/node/17493330)
Mud, vodka, chaos and crime? Not any more
http://www.economist.com/sites/default/files/images/images-magazine/2011/01/31/EU/20110131_EUD009.jpg
Fold up those old stereotypes and put them in the cupboard: two decades after the dust settled on communism, “eastern Europe” has come of age—and is ready to junk its out-of-date label. In 2011 what was once the ex-communist part of Europe will no longer look any worse than or different from the luckier lands to the west of the old Iron Curtain.
Take politics. The old stereotype was that “east” European governments were unstable and chaotic. Not any more. Almost the longest-serving prime minister in the European Union next year will be Andrus Ansip of Estonia, in office since April 2005 (he’s beaten only by the eternal Jean-Claude Juncker of Luxembourg and the embattled José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero of Spain). Poland’s Donald Tusk, likely to win re-election in late 2011, will be that country’s longest-serving prime minister since 1989 and another of the new breed of quietly impressive leaders.
Dump too the old stereo-type about corruption: it will be increasingly clear that the dividing line is north-south, not east-west. Estonia and Slovenia already do better than Spain, Italy or Portugal in anti-corruption rankings (and almost all the “east Europeans” do better than “west” European Greece, which is actually in the continent’s far south-east). The coming year will bring a crop of pleasing upgrades in league tables ranging from competitiveness to creditworthiness.
The coming year will bring a crop of pleasing upgrades
Having been scared by the phantom danger of default and devaluation during the downturn, investors are now reassessing their prejudices: there will be booming investment and rising living standards in places like Poland. Estonia will join the euro zone at the start of 2011, bringing investors piling in, whereas countries like Greece will languish in the danger zone.
The generous sowing of EU money will start bearing real fruit in 2011. New highways and faster railways will erode painful memories of squalid trains and bumpy roads. A new bridge over the Danube between Romania and Bulgaria will open in late 2011, ending one of the most scandalous bottlenecks in Europe.
Introducing the ACES in Europe’s pack
Nor will it be fair to see the ex-communist countries as marginal in diplomatic terms. Poland, newly friendly with France, Germany and Russia, will have its chair firmly pulled up to the big boys’ table in 2011, just as Spain’s place looks increasingly precarious. The Obama administration will hold the biggest military exercise so far in the Baltic region in 2011, underlining its commitment to the security of Poland and the always-jumpy Baltic states.
Finally, forget the old notion of a region living in fear of Russian energy cut-offs. Latvia and Lithuania are building a “power bridge” to Sweden. Other countries will be well on their way to building terminals to import liquefied natural gas or to developing their own gas reserves. Spurred by Poland and Hungary, the European Union will finance interconnecting pipelines from north to south, breaking Russia’s old east-to-west gas monopoly.
So, by the end of 2011, life in most of the newish eastern members of the EU will be a lot better, and their prospects a lot brighter, than ever before in their history. It will be time to find them a new name. How about the ACES—the “advancing countries of Europe”?
...
This is a rather interesting article, which mentions the north-south differences also. Like Northern-European Estonia having a considerably lower corruption level than all the Southern-European countries.
Eldritch
11-26-2010, 09:21 PM
...
So, by the end of 2011, life in most of the newish eastern members of the EU will be a lot better, and their prospects a lot brighter, than ever before in their history. It will be time to find them a new name.
How about the ACES—the “advancing countries of Europe”?
No, thanks. That's actually much worse than what they want to replace. It's not because I want to deny that these countries in fact are advancing, but because sticking new labels on anything seems, well, tacky, artificial and unnecessary.
The reason why stereotypes about Eastern-Europe/ex-communist part of Europe aren't true is because ethnoculturally Central-European countries like the Czech Republic or Northern-European Estonia have been labeled Eastern-European. Thus it's logical that the stereotypes do not apply. The capitalist and ex-communist divide doesn't work and is illogical from the start.
For instance, a capitalist/"Western" country like Greece is ethnoculturally Eastern when compared to culturally western countries like Estonia or Slovakia. When one could say that Slovakians are Eastern-European because they're Slavic, then no cultural nor ethnic definition would make Estonians, Eastern-European.
esaima
11-27-2010, 09:49 AM
Mhmm, there is still pretty big difference between ex-communist and old "capitalist" countries.Different mentalities, at least in everyday life, IMO.
Mhmm, there is still pretty big difference between ex-communist and old "capitalist" countries.Different mentalities, at least in everyday life, IMO.
There are definitely two completely different mentalities when comparing a country like Russia and the United Kingdom.
There are definitely two completely different mentalities when comparing a country like Russia and the United Kingdom.
I can assure you, from what I've seen on these boards, there is also a huge gulf in the mentalities between countries like Estonia and the United Kingdom.
esaima
11-27-2010, 10:06 AM
There are definitely two completely different mentalities when comparing a country like Russia and the United Kingdom.
Indeed, Russians and Britons are very different, they are even, I´d say, antipodes.British culture is considered to be the most individualistic in the world.
Magister Eckhart
11-27-2010, 10:06 AM
[insert pithy comment about the clean, pure peoples of Northern Europe running their countries better than the swarthy, criminal Mediterraneans]
Actually, it seems to me that despite a major cultural divide between North and South that pre-dates even the martyrdom of Jan Hus, the real deciding factor is "new EU" countries versus "old EU" countries, and given long enough, these so-called "ACES" will be in the same shape in which Greece and Spain now find themselves.
For instance, a capitalist/"Western" country like Greece is ethnoculturally Eastern when compared to culturally western countries like Estonia or Slovakia.
What does "ethnoculturally Eastern" mean, and how can you apply that to Greece, and not Estonia? Estonia is an Eastern European country, albeit one of the most developed and that shares some similarities with Scandinavia and Finland. But Poland is probably more "Western" than Estonia. If there is such a thing.
When one could say that Slovakians are Eastern-European because they're Slavic, then no cultural nor ethnic definition would make Estonians, Eastern-European.
Why not? It's not only Slavs who live in Eastern Europe.
The Ripper
11-27-2010, 10:15 AM
Mhmm, there is still pretty big difference between ex-communist and old "capitalist" countries.Different mentalities, at least in everyday life, IMO.
I would say that even Finland has a rather different mentality from "old capitalist" countries. Or at least had until recently. Perhaps its due to "residual communism" like the YYA-treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Soviet_Treaty_of_1948) and Finlandization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization), coupled with a rather "corporatist" social democratic state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Income_Policy_Agreement)? ;)
I can assure you, from what I've seen on these boards, there is also a huge gulf in the mentalities between countries like Estonia and the United Kingdom.
Definitely, considering the radically different problems those 2 countries have.
What does "ethnoculturally Eastern" mean, and how can you apply that to Greece, and not Estonia? Estonia is an Eastern European country, albeit one of the most developed and that shares some similarities with Scandinavia and Finland.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/V%C3%A4steuropa-karta.png
The European territory of the West according to Huntington. The map represented the Orthodox East and Western Christian (Catholic-Protestant) West. Through the centuries, the Great Schism caused determinant differences in societal structure, in ruling forms, in applied technologies and economic development, in philosophy and ethics, in architecture, in fine-arts and clothing.
But Poland is probably more "Western" than Estonia. If there is such a thing.
Not really, they share more (cultural) ties with Belorussians, Ukrainians and other Eastern-Europeans.
Why not? It's not only Slavs who live in Eastern Europe.
But it's the Slavic culture and mentality which is used synonymously with Eastern-European.
The Ripper
11-27-2010, 10:21 AM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/V%C3%A4steuropa-karta.png
The European territory of the West according to Huntington. The map represented the Orthodox East and Western Christian (Catholic-Protestant) West. Through the centuries, the Great Schism caused determinant differences in societal structure, in ruling forms, in applied technologies and economic development, in philosophy and ethics, in architecture, in fine-arts and clothing.
Not really, they share more (cultural) ties with Belorussians, Ukrainians and other Eastern-Europeans.
Also we share ties with Orthodox Setos, Karelians, etc and have been ruled by Orthodox Russia for significant periods of time. Its no good to pretend we're completely "untainted" of this foul easterness. Better to accept it and move on. :)
But it's the Slavic culture and mentality which is used synonymously with Eastern-European.
If the terms are used synonymously, they're being abused.
Not really, they share more (cultural) ties with Belorussians, Ukrainians and other Eastern-Europeans.
They share ties with other Slavs as you have mentioned, but also have strong ties with Germany. I consider Poland more "Western" than Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Geographically it certainly is, and culturally the designations are probably more subjective.
But it's the Slavic culture and mentality which is used synonymously with Eastern-European.
What Slavic culture and mentality? Is there such a monolithic thing? There is great variation among Slavs, too.
And no, when I think "Eastern Europe" I do not only think Slavic. There are Latvians, Lithuanians and Estonians too, for starters. But Slavs dominate in every way in that region because of their abundance, of course.
esaima
11-27-2010, 10:29 AM
I would say that even Finland has a rather different mentality from "old capitalist" countries. Or at least had until recently. Perhaps its due to "residual communism" like the YYA-treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Soviet_Treaty_of_1948) and Finlandization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finlandization), coupled with a rather "corporatist" social democratic state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Income_Policy_Agreement)? ;)
Yeah, for me social democratic and Nordic (!:D) are nearly synonyms.
For some reason Estonia is not so social democratic:confused3:
Also we share ties with Orthodox Setos, Karelians, etc and have been ruled by Orthodox Russia for significant periods of time. Its no good to pretend we're completely "untainted" of this foul easterness. Better to accept it and move on. :)
So, you are saying that 10 000 people affected the entire almost 1 million population of Estonians enough for there being something Orthodox/eastern about us?
If the terms are used synonymously, they're being abused.
Well, Finland is geographically located in Eastern-Europe just as much as Estonia. But no one calls Finns, Eastern-Europeans. Because the term is used synonymously everywhere and by everyone with Slavic culture etc.
Finland was also part of the Russian Empire and it became independent at the same time as Estonia. But 50 years of Soviet rule "magically" changed 1000 years of history and turned people who have been historically in the Central- and Northern-European cultural sphere, into Eastern-Europeans. Estonians are Eastern-European in the same sense as Germans from Brandernburg. In any other definition, we aren't.
Tomasz
11-27-2010, 10:32 AM
Poland is geographically Central European and culturally Western. However we were always bordering Eastern countries, many Ruthenians were living inside of Poland's borders. But in most cases they were forcibly polonized and "Westernized" rather than other way around (which caused anti-Polish riots by the way). These close ties with some Eastern people surely had some impact on Polish culture but we are predominantly Western anyway.
Poles considered themselves to be eastern outpost of the West and defenders of western christianity in this area of Europe.
Oh, and Karl - I don't see anything wrong with being "Eastern" anyway. I'm myself fascinated by Russian culture, I'm planning to learn this language and travel through this country. :)
They share ties with other Slavs as you have mentioned, but also have strong ties with Germany. I consider Poland more "Western" than Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania. Geographically it certainly is, and culturally the designations are probably more subjective.
What Slavic culture and mentality? Is there such a monolithic thing? There is great variation among Slavs, too.
And no, when I think "Eastern Europe" I do not only think Slavic. There are Latvians, Lithuanians and Estonians too, for starters. But Slavs dominate in every way in that region because of their abundance, of course.
By the same sense, Northern-Koreans aren't Koreans.
Yeah, for me social democratic and Nordic (!:D) are nearly synonyms.
For some reason Estonia is not so social democratic:confused3:
Estonia was very social democratic before WW2, probably more social democratic than some countries across the Baltic sea, they dominated the politics for the short time of independence. That's why all the former Baltic-German estates were given away to the people. Things have changed now and most Estonians do not like anything containing the word socialism.
Estonia was very social democratic before WW2, probably more social democratic than some countries across the Baltic sea, they dominated the politics for the short time of independence. That's why all the former Baltic-German estates were given away to the people. Things have changed now and most Estonians do not like anything containing the word socialism.
Well, Estonia perhaps needs to shrug off the Soviet past and move on - back to where they once were.
Poles considered themselves to be eastern outpost of the West and defenders of western christianity in this area of Europe.
I'll show you the historic outpost and border between the West and the East.
http://www.klint.envir.ee/klint/Pildid/650/61-narva.jpg
On one side(the Estonian/western side), there's the Hermann Castle, founded by the Danes in 1256, which was purchased by the Livonian Teutonic Knights Order on 29 August 1346. On the other side, the Russian/eastern side is the Ivangorod fortress, which was built in 1492.
This border between the West and the East is almost a milennia old.
Oh, and Karl - I don't see anything wrong with being "Eastern" anyway. I'm myself fascinated by Russian culture, I'm planning to learn this language and travel through this country. :)
Me neither, I just dislike being wrongly labeled. I do not have any bad feelings towards Belorussians, Ukrainians etc.
Tomasz
11-27-2010, 10:49 AM
Estonia was very social democratic before WW2
Nothing to be proud of to be honest. :wink
Well, Estonia perhaps needs to shrug off the Soviet past and move on - back to where they once were.
Socialism wouldn't work here anymore, the immigrant population is too large. I would be a supporter of socialism in a homogeneous country. But currently I am a strong supporter of the right-wing conservatives.
Nothing to be proud of to be honest. :wink
Well, in those circumstances it worked. I see no harm in taking away the land of the rich Baltic-Germans who ruled us for centuries and giving it back to the people. :p
Socialism wouldn't work here anymore, the immigrant population is too large. I would be a supporter of socialism in a homogeneous country.
Uhm, Estonia is fortunate enough to have very few non-European immigrants. The bulk of your immigrants are Russians from the Soviet era, so I can't see what the problem is. I wish the UK was in that position!
Albion
11-27-2010, 11:17 AM
East and West Europe? Why do these terms even still exist? We're just Europe, I use such terms in a geographical sense only.
Lumping nations together as "Eastern" or "Western" European is rubbish in this day and age, none of them are the same.
Uhm, Estonia is fortunate enough to have very few non-European immigrants. The bulk of your immigrants are Russians from the Soviet era, so I can't see what the problem is.
That's the main reason why we cannot understand each other. The possible extinction of Estonians is a big problem for me. But looks like it isn't for some people on a Cultural & Ethnic European Preservationist forum. :)
I wish the UK was in that position!
So, you would wish that some dictator's plan of completely eliminating the native population(s) of the UK would be half-done and still in action?
The Ripper
11-27-2010, 11:24 AM
Uhm, Estonia is fortunate enough to have very few non-European immigrants. The bulk of your immigrants are Russians from the Soviet era, so I can't see what the problem is. I wish the UK was in that position!
They were the people brought in to replace and rule over the remaining Estonian population, colonists in the true sense of the word. They were imposed by a very anti-Estonian regime, their presence is no cause for jubilation, and they have been from the beginning supporters of Moscow's interests and have acted as a fifth column.
That's the main reason why we cannot understand each other. The possible extinction of Estonians is a big problem for me. But looks like it isn't for some people on a Cultural & Ethnic European Preservationist forum. :)
Estonians are not going extinct anytime soon. They are a small nation, yes, but far from extinction.
They were the people brought in to replace and rule over the remaining Estonian population, colonists in the true sense of the word. They were imposed by a very anti-Estonian regime, their presence is no cause for jubilation, and they have been from the beginning supporters of Moscow's interests and have acted as a fifth column.
They are not in power anymore, though, and suffer from discrimination in the country they were born in.
Estonians are not going extinct anytime soon. They are a small nation, yes, but far from extinction.
Define ethnic preservation for me. Our definitions may differ...
If 30% of the British population wouldn't be from the UK and would start assimilating into the native English/Welsh/Scottish population. Then wouldn't the result be that Brits from 1980 wouldn't recognize the Brits from 2080?
They are not in power anymore, though, and suffer from discrimination in the country they were born in.
Now you're making baseless claims. Russians in Estonia have more privileges and rights than any immigrant group in Western-Europe. This is not an Estonian opinion, that's the conclusion of everyone who have researched the situation here, including Brussels/EU.
The Ripper
11-27-2010, 12:46 PM
They are not in power anymore, though, and suffer from discrimination in the country they were born in.
Oh come on, don't tell me you buy into the victim-propaganda. Estonia has every right to be an Estonian nation-state. The Russians must adjust to that fact.
Now you're making baseless claims. Russians in Estonia have more privileges and rights than any immigrant group in Western-Europe. This is not an Estonian opinion, that's the conclusion of everyone who have researched the situation here, including Brussels/EU.
You are the one speaking baseless.
You should inform yourself about the positive discrimination that have the inmigrants from Southamerica in Spain... and then know what are really privileges.
As an example, I will tell you than in Catalonia, the latin kings, violent band of "latinos", receive money and are valued as CULTURAL ASSOCIATION. No, its not a joke.
Compare then with your eastern country, that receives Russians and not amerindians as migrants. You are, compared to western europe, lucky... yesterday I read about the number of people with AIDS. The numbers in western Europe were impressive compared with the ones in East, mainly because the "quality" of our inmigration (in the west and in the east).
I am sure you have more in common with a russian than to an amerindian or negro... even I preffer and I see as a cousin a russian, compared to the inmigrants we have in the West.
You should visit Spain (1) or France(2) or Britain(3) to understand my words and appreciate better the quality of your neighbours, your inmigrants, after seeing what is going on in here.
(1)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Wt5fEfiCuTA/StH5U2aVnyI/AAAAAAAAAPQ/Vv0uaSPgsiU/s400/trini.jpg
(2)
http://www.elpais.com/recorte/20071127elpepuint_8/XLCO/Ies/20071127elpepuint_8.jpg
(3)
http://www.limitstogrowth.org/WEB-Graphics/londonmuslims.jpg
You are the one speaking baseless.
You should inform yourself about the positive discrimination that have the inmigrants from Southamerica in Spain... and then know what are really privileges.
As an example, I will tell you than in Catalonia, the latin kings, violent band of "latinos", receive money and are valued as CULTURAL ASSOCIATION. No, its not a joke.
Compare then with your eastern country, that receives Russians and not amerindians as migrants. You are, compared to western europe, lucky... yesterday I read about the number of people with AIDS. The numbers in western Europe were impressive compared with the ones in East, mainly because the "quality" of our inmigration (in the west and in the east).
I am sure you have more in common with a russian than to an amerindian or negro... even I preffer and I see as a cousin a russian, compared to our inmigrants in the West.
You should visit Spain or France or Britain to understand my words and appreciate better the quality of your neighbours, your inmigrants, after seeing what is going on in here.
Sigh...
1.There's no separate education system in Spain for African/South-American immigrants. Enough said.
The immigrants here are so privileged that they have their own schools, with their own teachers, in their own language.
There are 62 Russian upper secondary schools in Estonia. That's a lot, when compared to the number of Estonian upper secondary schools.
2. By percentage, Estonia is the most HIV-infected country in Europe. With about ~12 000 people. The majority of them are Russian drug addicts who got it by sharing needles.
Ironically, the biggest HIV problem is in the 3rd biggest city in Estonia, Narva. The population is ~97% Russian.
The immigrants here cause all kinds of problems, ranging from crime to spreading HIV.
It may come as a surprise, but I have always respected and liked Estonians. May I remind you that South Africa was at the forefront in the fight against Communism. Many anti-Apartheid activists were educated in Moscow. Yet, I do not hold Russians responsible for the Stalinist era. I wish Estonians the very best. I think the difference is that I do not share the hatred for Russians.
It may come as a surprise, but I have always respected and liked Estonians. May I remind you that South Africa was at the forefront in the fight against Communism. Many anti-Apartheid activists were educated in Moscow. Yet, I do not hold Russians responsible for the Stalinist era. I wish Estonians the very best. I think the difference is that I do not share the hatred for Russians.
Hatred of immigrants is a very common thing on these kind forums, as they're a threat to the cultural & ethnic preservation of different European ethnicities.
The Russians in Estonia aren't immigrants in the same sense as Turks are in Germany or Pakistanis are in the UK. Most of the 3rd world individuals emigrated into the UK, France, Germany etc, to live a better life. While the Russians were brought here as colonists, with one goal, to replace the native population.
...
Anyway, I'll quite Toomas Hendrik Ilves, the Estonian president. On the topic of immigrants/Russians having more rights/privileges than in any other EU countries.
Ilves was asked whether he would want that 139,000 residents who are not citizens of Estonia left the country. He responded: "I would certainly not want for my compatriots to leave Estonia and they are not doing this, despite the invitations and calls to leave Estonia, which, for example, were voiced by the president of Russia. When someone asked the Russian ambassador how many Russians have left Estonia, he answered: fifteen - they want to study there. For some reason people do not want to leave Estonia despite the flow of propaganda which says how awful and bad it is to live in Estonia. Obviously, this propaganda does not work as people do not want to leave Estonia. Quite the other way round - many in Russia would like to come to Estonia. Why would they like to do this - one could ask them - if the situation here is so bad? They are not leaving for Russia, therefore the situation does not correspond to the image that one is trying to create about us." "If you look at what rights the population speaking other languages has in other countries of the European Union, then the foreign-language population in Estonia has many more rights than in other countries of the European Union." Ilves explained that the language test that non-citizens have to take to gain citizenship was an easy one so that about a dozen Belarusian students who have escaped Belarus have reached the required language standard in three months after arriving in Tartu.
(1)
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Wt5fEfiCuTA/StH5U2aVnyI/AAAAAAAAAPQ/Vv0uaSPgsiU/s400/trini.jpg
(2)
http://www.elpais.com/recorte/20071127elpepuint_8/XLCO/Ies/20071127elpepuint_8.jpg
(3)
http://www.limitstogrowth.org/WEB-Graphics/londonmuslims.jpg
1.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_GzQNaaZsh_8/Stx3uJaur4I/AAAAAAAAeMU/VT7Dr1llhPQ/s1600/russian_wiggaz_26.jpg
2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sg8329uIKcw&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKpXqwE2rg8&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hBeKUgFI13s&feature=player_embedded
3.
http://maaelu.postimees.ee/foto/7/4/11894746f8f2e100ec6_3.jpg
Mordid
11-27-2010, 02:22 PM
Russian in Estonia are probably not ethnic Russian.
Peasant
11-27-2010, 03:08 PM
Russian in Estonia are probably not ethnic Russian.
:confused:
Mordid
11-27-2010, 03:12 PM
:confused:
I've seen a picture of them in Estonia and they looks like mongoloidish. They are probably Tartar or something.
Mordid
11-27-2010, 03:12 PM
1.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_GzQNaaZsh_8/Stx3uJaur4I/AAAAAAAAeMU/VT7Dr1llhPQ/s1600/russian_wiggaz_26.jpg
Right one doesn't looks like Russian.
:confused:
It's amazing isn't it? Someone with such a low level of intelligence is capable of using a keyboard. Although, not very successfully.
Russian in Estonia are probably not ethnic Russian.
I've seen a picture of them in Estonia and they looks like mongoloidish. They are probably Tartar or something.
Right one doesn't looks like Russian.
I do not like to throw around insults, but you're an idiot. On second thought, it isn't an insult. Although this particular word is used a lot, it actually applies to you.
There are 2000 Tatars in Estonia and 350 000 Russians.
Some of the people I've met on the internet have very idealistic views of Russians. The individual on the right wouldn't look out of place in a crowd of Russians. I see Russians with clear mongoloid features, daily. That's the result of Russian imperialism, the native populations were always assimilated and the Mongol/Tatar rule in the past played a role too.
Still, Russians are mostly European.
Mordid
11-27-2010, 03:32 PM
Sigh.........
Austin
11-27-2010, 04:16 PM
The average person in the U.S. would know what Poland is. That sad place that we always hear sad stories about. Estonia would bring questions in relation to the flintstones cartoon and once that was ruled out blank faces would appear.
Breedingvariety
11-27-2010, 04:27 PM
There are Lithuanians with quite strong mongoloid features, honestly. So I imagine these features are even more common among Russians.
Albion
11-27-2010, 04:34 PM
Oh come on, don't tell me you buy into the victim-propaganda. Estonia has every right to be an Estonian nation-state. The Russians must adjust to that fact.
I agree, but if Narva really is 97% Russian its a lost cause, let Russia annex it.
I agree, but if Narva really is 97% Russian its a lost cause, let Russia annex it.
By the same logic, Somalia should annex Malmö and Turkey should annex a few towns in Germany.
Narva was forcefully turned into a Russian city in the USSR era. The Estonians who fled the town during WW2 to escape the bombing, were forbidden to resettle in Narva. I checked the percentage and Narva is 93% Russian.
Albion
11-27-2010, 05:08 PM
By the same logic, Somalia should annex Malmö and Turkey should annex a few towns in Germany.
Narva was forcefully turned into a Russian city in the USSR era. The Estonians who fled the town during WW2 to escape the bombing, were forbidden to resettle in Narva. I checked the percentage and Narva is 93% Russian.
I was thinking of Narva being the exception.
I was thinking of Narva being the exception.
Russia is occupying a large enough part of Estonian territory, there's no reason to give away more land.
poiuytrewq0987
11-27-2010, 05:30 PM
By the same logic, Somalia should annex Malmö and Turkey should annex a few towns in Germany.
Narva was forcefully turned into a Russian city in the USSR era. The Estonians who fled the town during WW2 to escape the bombing, were forbidden to resettle in Narva. I checked the percentage and Narva is 93% Russian.
Except Narva borders Russia whereas Malmo and Berlin doesn't. Texas, for one, was won by Americans because ethnic Americans flowed into Texas and outnumbered ethnic Mexicans which led to the inevitable Mexican-American War and the annexation of Texas to the USA.
Megrez
11-27-2010, 05:38 PM
I have to agree that perhaps Mordid has a point. I wouldn't doubt that the soviets deliberately sent the worst elements from Russia, those of asian origin, to colonize Estonia.
Russia has invited ethnic Russians in Estonia to come back to Russia, but they refused to do so. This attitude doesn't seem characteristic of people of higher racial stock, holding high values and bent to strive for the good of the group they belong to. Such an attitude is rather characteristic of scum of inferior racial stock, people prone to live as leeches having an easy life in a richer country. True Russian nationalists should only loathe these people.
Except Narva borders Russia whereas Malmo and Berlin doesn't. Texas, for one, was won by Americans because ethnic Americans flowed into Texas and outnumbered ethnic Mexicans which led to the inevitable Mexican-American War and the annexation of Texas to the USA.
Well, I meant that massive Russian immigration to Estonia is as recent as Turkish immigration to Germany.
Pallantides
11-27-2010, 05:46 PM
There are Lithuanians with quite strong mongoloid features, honestly. So I imagine these features are even more common among Russians.
Well Lithuanians appear to be the purest "North Europeans" without any Asian input according to Dienekes admixture analysis;
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TOAbjajWtcI/AAAAAAAAC40/GmUk005OYlU/s1600/ADMIXTURE10.jpeg
It's pretty much simillar on other admixture analysis.
I have to agree that perhaps Mordid has a point. I wouldn't doubt that the soviets deliberately sent the worst elements from Russia, those of asian origin, to colonize Estonia.
Russia has invited ethnic Russians in Estonia to come back to Russia, but they refused to do so.
The Russians of Estonia are as Asian as the average Russian in Russia. Sadly, the ethnic Russian population probably has had the most Asian/Tatar/Mongol/Turkic et cetera influences, when we are talking about European populations. They're mostly European, but the Asian heritage is definitely visible when you walk around in Tallinn.
No difference was made between Russians, when they were sent to Estonia. The main goal was just to russify Estonia, no one cared how the Russians looked like. As I said before, the Russian population of Estonia doesn't differ much from the Russians of Russia.
If the opposite would have been true, then Estonia wouldn't have only 2000 Tatars.
This attitude doesn't seem characteristic of people of higher racial stock, holding high values and bent to strive for the good of the group they belong to. Such an attitude is rather characteristic of scum of inferior racial stock, people prone to live as leeches having an easy life in a richer country.
You summed that up quite nicely. I have said on several occasions that the Russians residing in Estonia are subhumans who leech on Estonia. These words may be harsh, but that's the reality.
Svanhild
11-27-2010, 06:04 PM
The reason why stereotypes about Eastern-Europe/ex-communist part of Europe aren't true is because ethnoculturally Central-European countries like the Czech Republic or Northern-European Estonia have been labeled Eastern-European.
Have you ever been to Czech Republic? It's not Central European. There's a clear cultural divide and gap in terms of civilization. You enter Czech Republic and you feel that you've crossed the border to the Eastern part of Europe. Don't let affect you by the condition of Prague. Prague isn't tantamount to Czech Republic as an entirety and has been under German influence for a rather long time, same goes for some towns in Böhmen. Visit the Czech countryside and the smaller Czech towns and you'll feel Eastern vibe. That isn't necessarily negative. But Central European? It isn't.
By the same logic, Somalia should annex Malmö and Turkey should annex a few towns in Germany.
That's nonsense. No German town has a Turkish majority, let alone a share of 95%. You can't compare Narva with our towns. But hey, I agree with you: Narva is supposed to be Estonian. Take it back one day. :)
Breedingvariety
11-27-2010, 06:20 PM
I see no point of having a territory entirely populated by different nationality, especially if the nationality is of inferior racial stock. Would Germany take back Konigsberg with all the people that live there now?
Tomasz
11-27-2010, 06:26 PM
I see no point of having a territory entirely populated by different nationality, especially if the nationality is of inferior racial stock. Would Germany take back Konigsberg with all the people that live there now?
Nation cannot be of inferior racial stock unless we speak about nations belonging to completely different racial families, f.e. black vs White or yellow vs Dravidian, etc.
Russians aren't of inferior racial stock than Estonians. Of course there are individuals in Russia who deserve to be called "subhumans" but Russia is "quite big" country, you know? There are Russians of all different subraces, starting from tall and blond Nordids ending at short and dark Mongolo-Tartars. To generalize this whole population into one is a big mistake. All European nations are mixtures of various subraces in different proportions.
Have you ever been to Czech Republic? It's not Central European. There's a clear cultural divide and gap in terms of civilization. You enter Czech Republic and you feel that you've crossed the border to the Eastern part of Europe. Don't let affect you by the condition of Prague. Prague isn't tantamount to Czech Republic as an entirety and has been under German influence for a rather long time, same goes for some towns in Böhmen. Visit the Czech countryside and the smaller Czech towns and you'll feel Eastern vibe. That isn't necessarily negative. But Central European? It isn't.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbcH_qYkeTc
Skip to 1.48 :D I know that this is about Bratislava and Slovakia, but this video came into my mind when I did read your post.
That's nonsense. No German town has a Turkish majority, let alone a share of 95%. You can't compare Narva with our towns. But hey, I agree with you: Narva is supposed to be Estonian. Take it back one day. :)
Not even small towns with a population of 20 000?
The thing I am always trying to draw parallels with Germany and the UK as most people have no idea about the situation here.
Tomasz
11-27-2010, 06:38 PM
Skip to 1.48 I know that this is about Bratislava and Slovakia, but this video came into my mind when I did read your post.
That's how indeed it might look in Slavic country... when you get into Gypsy district.
Breedingvariety
11-27-2010, 06:45 PM
Nation cannot be of inferior racial stock unless we speak about nations belonging to completely different racial families, f.e. black vs White or yellow vs Dravidian, etc.
Russians aren't of inferior racial stock than Estonians. Of course there are individuals in Russia who deserve to be called "subhumans" but Russia is "quite big" country, you know? There are Russians of all different subraces, starting from tall and blond Nordids ending at short and dark Mongolo-Tartars. To generalize this whole population into one is a big mistake. All European nations are mixtures of various subraces in different proportions.
IMO, it all goes down to averages and selective pressures within nations. Nations form reproductive groups that lead to formation of distinct races in a long run. If nation is already of inferior kind on average and hasn't good selective mechanism, it is better to separate from such nations.
That's how indeed it might look in Slavic country... when you get into Gypsy district.
This is another difference between Eastern-Europe and Estonia. There are no Gypsy districts here and the Gypsy population is small if not non-existent. I have never seen an Estonian Gypsy.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Romani_population_average_estimate.png
Albion
11-27-2010, 06:57 PM
This is another difference between Eastern-Europe and Estonia. There are no Gypsy districts here and the Gypsy population is small if not non-existent. I have never seen an Estonian Gypsy.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Romani_population_average_estimate.png
Lucky you. I take it that map is of Roma only, because the British Isles have the Irish and Scottish travellers - whites from said countries which became nomadic. Scandinavia also has the Norwegian travellers, again Norwegians who became nomadic.
Besides, do you think we choose to have gypsies? Why post that up, we're debating Estonians and Russians aren't we? Gypsies are separate peoples.
poiuytrewq0987
11-27-2010, 07:05 PM
This is another difference between Eastern-Europe and Estonia. There are no Gypsy districts here and the Gypsy population is small if not non-existent. I have never seen an Estonian Gypsy.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9f/Romani_population_average_estimate.png
The presence of Roma gypsies is the result of 500 years of Ottoman occupation of the Balkans. The effects of the occupation is still visible today even afte 100-200 (varies by country) years of independence from the Ottomans.
The presence of Roma gypsies were the result of 500 years of Ottoman occupation of the Balkans. The effects of the occupation is still visible today even afte 100-200 (varies by country) years of independence from the Ottomans.
I do know that, but the Czech and Slovak area has never been ruled by the Ottomans.
Tomasz
11-27-2010, 07:10 PM
IMO, it all goes down to averages and selective pressures within nations. Nations form reproductive groups that lead to formation of distinct races in a long run. If nation is already of inferior kind on average and hasn't good selective mechanism, it is better to separate from such nations.
IMO it's nonsense.
First, you must define what do you consider to be "superior racial stock". It seems that you're nordicist of some sort so I will assume that you mean Nordoids and other "progressive" types but I'm not sure.
Your type of thinking would be correct if Russians were nation of 10 million people or something like that. But there are actually about 115 millions of Russians living in Russia. That means that there are more Nordids in Russia than in Norway and Estonia combined. It cannot be underestimated and ignored because "they are only 10-20% of the population" (which is a lot anyway). And there are many other racial types living in Russia that are of good stock and worth preserving, namely Baltoids, Dinarids, Norids, Pontids. Non-Whites are minority among ethnic Russian population.
This is another difference between Eastern-Europe and Estonia. There are no Gypsy districts here and the Gypsy population is small if not non-existent. I have never seen an Estonian Gypsy.
What does it have to do with Russians or Poles? It's like saying that Germans are criminal scum because there are many Turks there. Just irrevelant.
poiuytrewq0987
11-27-2010, 07:17 PM
I do know that, but the Czech and Slovak area has never been ruled by the Ottomans.
Yeah, you have to go across the Atlantic to reach Czechoslovakia.
Yeah, you have to go across the Atlantic to reach Czechoslovakia.
I understand your point, the Ottoman area was quite close to Czechoslovakia. Thus going to that area shouldn't have been that difficult.
Osweo
11-27-2010, 08:01 PM
When one could say that Slovakians are Eastern-European because they're Slavic, then no cultural nor ethnic definition would make Estonians, Eastern-European.
Well... There is the old tendency for large peasant estates under Junker type aristos... ;)
So, you would wish that some dictator's plan of completely eliminating the native population(s) of the UK would be half-done and still in action?
Hmmm... Execution and/or expulsion of aristocrats, civil servants, magnates and clergy... Pushing of proletarians into higher education and state service at levels hitherto unimaginable... Damn it, it's bloody tempting. :eek: Heh, easterners who resent this phase in their history aren't aware of what it's LIKE to still live with the remnants of class privilege and snobbery!
If 30% of the British population wouldn't be from the UK and would start assimilating into the native English/Welsh/Scottish population. Then wouldn't the result be that Brits from 1980 wouldn't recognize the Brits from 2080?
I think you've just described the reality here rather well, not made an imaginary comparison. :(
It's rather absurd to compare different immigrants from a certain point of view - the grass will always be greener on the other side - but still, I run the risk of having grandchildren who look like Obama, whereas yours will at worst look like Lenin. :ohwell:
Right one doesn't looks like Russian.
He does. :shrug:
There are Lithuanians with quite strong mongoloid features, honestly. So I imagine these features are even more common among Russians.
I know what you mean, it's just that you've given it a term that isn't really appropriate.
No difference was made between Russians, when they were sent to Estonia.
I'm actually interested; do you know how such settlers were recruited? Who organised it? Have you heard from your Russian neighbours and colleagues about their particular stories on this?
Have you ever been to Czech Republic? It's not Central European. There's a clear cultural divide and gap in terms of civilization. You enter Czech Republic and you feel that you've crossed the border to the Eastern part of Europe. ... Visit the Czech countryside and the smaller Czech towns and you'll feel Eastern vibe. That isn't necessarily negative. But Central European? It isn't.
Very interesting! But would I recognise this 'easternness' as comparable to the Russian one with which I'm familiar? Or is it just a kind of non-German 'central European'? Historical factors would have me suggest that the Czechs are still Catholic at least - doesn't this strike you when you're there? Does the older Slavonic feel 'shine through' this veneer?
Mordid
11-27-2010, 08:05 PM
He does. :shrug:
Are you kidding me ? He look like he have some Asian influence. :shrug:
Osweo
11-27-2010, 08:41 PM
Are you kidding me ? He look like he have some Asian influence. :shrug:
Go to Russia, kid. Then go to Asia. You might know what you're talking about then.
Mordid
11-27-2010, 08:44 PM
Go to Russia, kid. Then go to Asia. You might know what you're talking about then.
I will not go there because they will rape me.
Pallantides
11-27-2010, 09:13 PM
Go to Russia, kid. Then go to Asia. You might know what you're talking about then.
The guy just looks Slavic imo, not really Asian.
Mordid
11-27-2010, 09:21 PM
This guy doesn't looks Slavic. :confused:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac236/david100_photo/russian_wiggaz_26-1.jpg
Tomasz
11-27-2010, 09:35 PM
He looks somewhat like stereotypical Slav for Western European. Of course such stereotypes don't invent themselves, there are reasons for them to exist. But they are always way exagerrated. People with such "Slavic look" compromise minority of East Slavic population (although noticeable).
There are similiar stereotypes about every group. "Celts are redheads" - in reality no more than 10% of Irish are. "Scandinavians are all tall, blond, blue-eyed Nordics" - some of them are, some of them not. "Jews have hooked, downturned noses" - some have but many of them don't. Et cetera.
Mordid
11-27-2010, 09:38 PM
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/169/421008297_4809bd7b35.jpg
Svanhild
11-27-2010, 09:46 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbcH_qYkeTc
Skip to 1.48 :D I know that this is about Bratislava and Slovakia, but this video came into my mind when I did read your post.
Most Czech towns look alike. You have the rather pictoresque historic town centres with German influenced medieval style and then you have these USSR/Warsaw pact style apartment buildings all around. Worn down and Eastern European by all vibes. There is also the fact that a lot of Vietnamese and gypsies subsist there. The outskirts of Prague look equally.
http://n-tier.i-s-o.org/media/plattenbau-04.jpg
Yes, that's the other, unknown side of Prague. Could be Kiev or Minsk by the same token, huh?
Not even small towns with a population of 20 000?
Turks basically gather in the larger towns. The cities with the largest Turkish population have ~8% Turks.
Very interesting! But would I recognise this 'easternness' as comparable to the Russian one with which I'm familiar?
I'm certain that you would recognise this easterness and feel familar to your time in Russia. Village and town names like Stary Dvur, Chudenice, Kalinova Ves, Zelcany, Mirosov, Havlickuv Brod, Koromov or Horovice should sound resemblant in your russophile mind. :wink
Or is it just a kind of non-German 'central European'? Historical factors would have me suggest that the Czechs are still Catholic at least - doesn't this strike you when you're there?
There're some churches like everywhere in Eastern Europe. Mere relicts. As a matter or fact, Czechs are the most athestic people in Europe. A minority actively believes in Christianity.
Does the older Slavonic feel 'shine through' this veneer?
You bet. Most of Czech Republic is like Poland, Belarus, Slovakia or Russia. The language is a bit different but the people have the slavic vibe and the slavic faces. I can't describe it to you and I don't know if you believe me. Just visit the country, you'll agree with me afterwards. For a certainty. :)
Mordid
11-27-2010, 09:48 PM
slavic faces.
Like this one :
http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/blond-mongol-girl.jpg
Right ?
Tomasz
11-27-2010, 09:55 PM
Most Czech towns look alike. You have the rather pictoresque historic town centres with German influenced medieval style and then you have these USSR/Warsaw pact style apartment buildings all around. Worn down and Eastern European by all vibes. There is also the fact that a lot of Vietnamese and gypsies subsist there. The outskirts of Prague look alike.
I agree completely. I have been to Czech Republic and it looks a lot alike Poland if we speak of architecture and general look of towns/cities. This raw and ugly building style in West/East Slavic countries is mainly result of communist "proletarian architecture" which was unlike the "rotten West". :wink
Like this one :
http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/blond-mongol-girl.jpg
Right ?
I think Svanhild refers to stereotypically West Slavic racial types a la Gorid (East-Alpinid) and so forth.
Osweo
11-27-2010, 09:57 PM
This guy doesn't looks Slavic. :confused:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac236/david100_photo/russian_wiggaz_26-1.jpg
The lad is Russian. Russians are Slavs. Get over it. Millions of Russians without known foreign ancestry look like that, from Tallinn to Alaska.
(Did the original Slovene have members who looked like that? This is a different question. But even then I'd suppose that a few of them did.)
Like this one :
http://pastmist.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/blond-mongol-girl.jpg
Right ?
God, Mordid. :tsk: We are SICK of you posting your relatives pics in EVERY thread! :rage
Mordid
11-27-2010, 09:59 PM
I agree completely. I have been to Czech Republic and it looks a lot alike Poland if we speak of architecture and general look of towns/cities. This raw and ugly building style in West/East Slavic countries is mainly result of communist "proletarian architecture" which was unlike the "rotten West". :wink
I've notice that some Czech looks very Western.
I think Svanhild refers to stereotypically West Slavic racial types a la Gorid (East-Alpinid) and so forth.
Like this one ? :
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac236/david100_photo/IMG_0008.jpg
Mordid
11-27-2010, 10:01 PM
The lad is Russian. Russians are Slavs. Get over it. Millions of Russians without known foreign ancestry look like that, from Tallinn to Alaska.
I suppose so but i havn't seen any Poles who looks like him.
Svanhild
11-27-2010, 10:10 PM
I think Svanhild refers to stereotypically West Slavic racial types a la Gorid (East-Alpinid) and so forth.
Exactly, and I don't use it in a negative way.
The average Czech looks like that:
http://blog.scad.edu/sasc/files/2009/03/eliska-decka1.jpg
http://www.cz-wellmed.de/images/bruenn/poliklinik_bruenn_dr_fracu.jpg
http://nimg.sulekha.com/others/original700/czech-republic-velvet-revolution-anniversary-2009-11-17-8-11-56.jpg
I've been to Czech Republic more than once and there aren't Czech supermodel types all around. :wink They're Western slavs of all forms, not dark or wogish forms. But the slavic vibe is clearly visible.
Megrez
11-27-2010, 10:23 PM
God, Mordid. :tsk: We are SICK of you posting your relatives pics in EVERY thread! :rage
Then:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac236/david100_photo/IMG_0008.jpg
Wow Mordid. You should win a prize.
Osweo
11-27-2010, 10:24 PM
I suppose so but i havn't seen any Poles who looks like him.
If this post had been written in Bialystok instead of London, I might pay more attention.
Mordid
11-27-2010, 10:30 PM
Wow Mordid. You should win a prize.
YAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
Tomasz
11-27-2010, 10:30 PM
If this post had been written in Bialystok instead of London, I might pay more attention.
As a Pole, I can only say that this Russian guy (exhibiting "Slavic look") is very East Slavic looking, however I think he would look a bit out of place in Poland. Stereotypically Polish/Czech/Slovakian types were posted by Svanhild on previous page.
KARL:
(...) Estonia having a considerably lower corruption level than all the Southern-European countries
Poor boy.
poiuytrewq0987
11-27-2010, 10:52 PM
As a Pole, I can only say that this Russian guy (exhibiting "Slavic look") is very East Slavic looking, however I think he would look a bit out of place in Poland. Stereotypically Polish/Czech/Slovakian types were posted by Svanhild on previous page.
The pictures weren't very fair. It'd be like showing this picture
http://www.streetsblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2007/08_20/berliners.jpg
or this one where we can see a sea of blond-haired people in Germany's glorious capital, Berlin
http://www.germany.info/Vertretung/usa/en/09__Press__InFocus__Interviews/03__Infocus/04__Without__Walls/Feature__1/Timeline__Trabis__CC__B,property=Galeriebild__gros s.jpg
Lábaru
11-27-2010, 10:55 PM
KARL:
Estonia having a considerably lower culture level than all the Southern-European countries
Fixed.
Breedingvariety
11-28-2010, 06:32 AM
First, you must define what do you consider to be "superior racial stock". It seems that you're nordicist of some sort so I will assume that you mean Nordoids and other "progressive" types but I'm not sure.
1.Nordid & harmonized blends
2.Mediterranid & harmonized blends
3.Other progressive and/or harmonized (even if not progressive) European types
Your type of thinking would be correct if Russians were nation of 10 million people or something like that. But there are actually about 115 millions of Russians living in Russia. That means that there are more Nordids in Russia than in Norway and Estonia combined. It cannot be underestimated and ignored because "they are only 10-20% of the population" (which is a lot anyway). And there are many other racial types living in Russia that are of good stock and worth preserving, namely Baltoids, Dinarids, Norids, Pontids. Non-Whites are minority among ethnic Russian population.
I agree with what you say. But my point still stands on averages.
It's rather absurd to compare different immigrants from a certain point of view - the grass will always be greener on the other side - but still, I run the risk of having grandchildren who look like Obama, whereas yours will at worst look like Lenin. :ohwell:
Either way, they would look foreign.
He does. :shrug:
Indeed
I'm actually interested; do you know how such settlers were recruited? Who organised it? Have you heard from your Russian neighbours and colleagues about their particular stories on this?
I have no idea from what regions the Russians are from. Russians came here from entire Russia, thus they're a diverse bunch but still all Russian.
Immediately after the war, Stalin carried out a major colonization and de facto Russification campaign in what were now the three Baltic Soviet republics. Many of the Russians, along with a smaller number from other ethnic groups, who migrated from other parts of the USSR to the Baltic republics, arrived to rebuild their heavily war-damaged economies. Mostly they were factory and construction workers who settled in major urban areas, as well as military personnel stationed in the region in significant numbers due to the border location of the Baltic republics within the Soviet Union. Many military retirees chose to stay in the region, which featured higher living standards compared to most of the USSR.
There're some churches like everywhere in Eastern Europe. Mere relicts. As a matter or fact, Czechs are the most athestic people in Europe. A minority actively believes in Christianity.
Actually, Estonians(14%) are the least religious people in Europe and in the world. Followed by other Nordic people, Swedes(17%), Danes(18%) and Norwegians(20%). The Czech people come fifth with 21% of the population being religious.
http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4077
Poor boy.
Fixed.
How does it feel to live in a corrupt country? I heard that in most cases you can avoid a speeding ticket in Russia, if you give the police officer some money. How does it feel to share such "cultural" ties with "Easterners"? :pound:
How does it feel to live in a corrupt country?
Obviously you don't know what you are talking about.
How does it feel to share such "cultural" ties with "Easterners"? :pound:
Nothing, we do share almost nothing with you.
We are in the farest point from your kind.
I'm sorry.
http://www.floresdenieve.cepe.unam.mx/veintitres/imagenes/cuerpo/hombros.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_x6Y4ZgFsZdY/THayWhv-w7I/AAAAAAAAAYw/ew7YwZrSlJI/s1600/Myres+maps+R1b1b2a1+frequencies.jpeg
Tomasz
11-28-2010, 01:21 PM
Lol, you're both talking like Easterners would be some sort of animals. :p
This guy doesn't looks Slavic. :confused:
http://i903.photobucket.com/albums/ac236/david100_photo/russian_wiggaz_26-1.jpg
This is nothing out of the ordinary. You can find many English chavs who look like that.
Lol, you're both talking like Easterners would be some sort of animals. :p
Well, the Spaniard views them as animals, I'm just trying to follow his logic and pull his leg.
So I figured that he will be quite pissed off, when his people and his country resemble the "Easterners"/animals(lol) more than my (Northern-European) people.
I do not have the same views as the Spaniard and I do not have anything against the Eastern-Europeans/Slavs who are living in their native homeland. Nor do I view them as "animals". I only dislike the immigrants here.
Megrez
11-28-2010, 01:58 PM
I tend to agree that Romance people are prone to corruption.
Peasant
11-28-2010, 04:21 PM
This is nothing out of the ordinary. You can find many English chavs who look like that.
I have never seen anyone that looks like that.
You should come to London ;)
I have never seen anyone that looks like that.
Mordid
11-28-2010, 04:26 PM
You should come to London ;)
I live in London and i have never seen anyone who looks like this Russian boy.
London chav tend to have Atlantid or Nordid looks. This Russian guy look like something else with Mongoloid influence.
Tomasz
11-28-2010, 04:29 PM
I live in London and i have never seen anyone who looks like this Russian boy.
London chav tend to have Atlantid or Nordid looks. This Russian guy look like something else with Mongoloid influence.
Funny thing is that you repeatedly told me in the past that English chavs often look like stereotypical "Russians". :p
Mordid
11-28-2010, 04:32 PM
Funny thing is that you repeatedly told me in the past that English chavs often look like stereotypical "Russians". :p
English chav to have ''East Nordid'' looks and sometime they have Baltid looks which is why i associate them with Russian.
Albion
11-28-2010, 04:46 PM
English chav to have ''East Nordid'' looks and sometime they have Baltid looks which is why i associate them with Russian.
I always thought of them as having narrow faces, I've seen some people suggest Nord-Atlantid for the Neds (Scottish Chavs) :(
Mordid
11-28-2010, 04:55 PM
I always thought of them as having narrow faces, I've seen some people suggest Nord-Atlantid for the Neds (Scottish Chavs) :(
They do, indeed. Have you notice that some English chav have pseudo Baltid looks ?
Like this one :
http://files.myopera.com/josh1/albums/502144/chav.jpg
The Lawspeaker
11-29-2010, 10:41 AM
Well regardless of the fact that we have cultural differences in Europe (fact of life I suppose. We have 'em here too in our own country ;) ) Eastern European economic growth has been considerable and chances are one day Western and Eastern Europe will have a similar standard of living. Then we can become a European family of nations that are wealthy, well-tended and civilized.
But then again.. before we applaud and congratulate ourselves let's first deal that hold us back and make sure that we can reach our full potential and take matters into our own hands (democracy and national self-preservation).
Besides.. we can always use new definitions as based on a similar culture: West, Central, North, South, Southeast and East. And it would make more sense to group countries with a culture that has similarities into one group: Bulgaria, Russia, Belarus and the Ukraine are Eastern Europe. While Poland, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Latvia and Lithuania are Central Europe. Estonia would definitely belong more in Northern Europe if it wasn't for the Russian minority. And sometimes the definitions we use already can be different within the borders of a single nation: take for instance Germany that is considered both West- and Central European on maps.
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