"Germans" from East Prussia

[Peterski]

http://s30.postimg.org/3mbtub10x/image.jpg

BOBERN
Fritz Soboll
Fritz Gerlach
Johann Melza
Johann Brozio
August Janz

DEUMENRODE
Rudolf Meyer
August Maslowski
Gust. Krause

DLUGOSSEN
Johann Fabritzki
Max Kruschinski
Gustaw Moysiszik
Herm. Doliwa
Martin Stanull
Ludwig Symanzik
Ludwig Pietrzyk
Adolf Komossa
Joh. Murawski
Gustav Dolenga
Ludwig Dolenga
Hermann Maczeyzik
Johann Wiersbitzki

EICHENSEE
Martin Sollmann
August Jenzelewski
Hermann Fröhlich
Karl Schwetzko
Jakob Waschkewitz
Adam Sobottka
Gustav Dombrowski
Joh. Dombrowski
Gustav Wernik
Joh. Glam
Ludwig Niklas
Aug. Bartholomeyzik
Friedrich Sdorra
Johann Lask
Johann Rafael
Johann Koczik
Ludwig Budzinski
Ludwig Woydak
Ludwig Wernik
August Borutta
Wilhelm Gallmeister
Martin Scheyko
Hermann Riesy

GLINKEN
Joh. Sulewski
Rudolf Truskowski

HELLMAHNEN
August Maczeyzik
Emil Zielazko

KOBYLINNEN
Fritz von Glinski
Wilhelm Schattkowski

LANGSEE
Paul Albin
August Donder
Johann Kornatzki
Friedr. Lukaschewski
Waldemar Marczinski
Adolf Olschewski
Karl Philippzik
Johann Walendy
Johann Olschewski

LIPINSKEN
Friedr. Jestremski
Ludwig Czybulka
Friedr. Czybulka
Rud. Czybulka
Wilh. Czybulka

MYLUSSEN
Gustav Borawski
Fritz Borawski
Gust. Borawski
Joh. Bannewitz
Friedrich Brosziewski
Michael Chedor
Gustav Cirnetzki
Karl Cirnetzki
Franz Gossing
Karl Heisel
August Kloss
Joh. Marczinowski
Gottlieb Marczinowski
Fritz Rabialski
Wilh. Schwidereck
Otto Smentek
Joh. Czech
Rud. Trustkowski

NIEDZWEDZKEN
Karl Purwien
Ludwig Rogowski
Hermann Rosinski
Adolf Dubaschny
Fritz Piechottka
Ludwig Piechottka

OSTROKOLLEN
Herm. Bartholomeyzik
Ludwig Borutta
Karl Makoschey
Karl Michalzyk
Johann Mozarski
Aug. Symanzik
Friedr. Willimzik

POPOWEN
Franz Donder
Wilh. Kordas
Franz Kowalewski
Johann Olschewski

PROSTKEN
August Adamzik
Johann Bondzio
August Brodowski
Johann Brodowski
Bruno Buchholz
Karl Buczilowski
Otto Denzer
Kurt Doliwa
August Donder
Herm. Hartmann
Fritz Hellmich
Max Jasch
Gustav Karpinski
Herm. Karpinski
Otto Klimaschewski
Ludwig Kloss
Aug. Koslowski
August Krupinski
Herm. Kulschewski
Gustav Lamowski
Wilh. Losch
Gottfried Maslo
Ernst Neumann
Rudolf Neumann
Jakob Nikulka
Paul Nisch
Franz Olschewski
Gust. Reinhardt
Franz Schmidt
Friedr. Schmidt
Gottlieb Schulz
Joh. Stutzkowitz
Friedr. Wilimzik
Aug. Wrobel
Aug. Zielinski
Kurt Bergmann

SCHIKORREN
Gottlieb Rukowski

SDUNKEN
August Plaga
Joh. Frohlian
Joh. Niedzwietzki
Ludw. Czubayko
Gust. Czubayko
Herm. Biernatzki
Gust. Dolenga
Johann Konietzko
Mich. Moskalewski
Alfred Zeysig

SOKOLKEN
Fritz Rinnewitz
Paul Domscheit
August Gryzan
Martin Tachil

SOLTMAHNEN
Reinhold Bickel
Hermann Kudritzki
Ludwig Kudritzki
Gustav Nikulski
Joh. Nikulski
Ludwig Nikulski
Gust. Pietrzik
August Trott I
August Trott II
August Wilk
Franz Zeisig

ZIELASKEN
Ludwig Lojewski
Adolf Lojewski
Friedrich Katzbrowski

https://s24.postimg.org/9zgz796yt/image.jpg

August Dombrowitzki † 23.8.14.
Max Jung † 28.8.14.
Richard Grӓff † 28.8.14.
Emil Langkath †31.8.14.
Heinr. v. Sommerfeld † 5.9.14.
Albert Wessollek † 13.9.14.
August Krolzik † 25.10.14.
Wilhelm Jaschinski † 7.11.14.
Friedrich Ritzki † 18.11.14.
Gustav Kurginski † 12.12.14.
Emil Lewandowski † 15.12.14.
Karl Ritzki † 18.12.14.
Adolf Bloch † 23.12.14.
Friedrich Jeglinski † 1.2.15.
Erich Hinz † 3.2.15.
Johann Nickel † 11.2.15.
Eugen Kuschmierz † 18.2.15.
Johann Wieczorrek † 19.2.15.
Gustav Makofka † 23.2.15.
Gustav Lafer † 4.3.15.
August Wiktorowitz † 7.3.15.
Otto Schrӧder † 24.3.15.
Friedrich Jeromin † 13.5.15.
Adolf Kutschewski † 20.7.15.
Emil Konopatzki † 11.8.15.
Georg Molitor † 16.8.15.
Wilhelm Burbulla † 18.8.15.
Fritz Koenert † 4.9.15.
Friedrich Powalka † 16.9.15.
Fritz Beysen † 4.10.15.
Friedrich Burbulla † 13.11.15.
Friedrich Kuschmierz † 21.3.16.

https://s24.postimg.org/76nrn86md/image.jpg

Rudolf Nendza † 4.6.16.
Adolf Zanerra † 6.6.16.
Reinhold Wrona † 8.6.16.
Georg Jӓger † 4.7.16.
Baltasar Hӧffgen † 28.8.16.
Emil Slopianka † 30.8.16.
Karl Klosz † 8.9.16.
Adolf Josefowitz † 7.10.16.
Fridrich Pillath † 20.10.16.
Gustav Dudda † 7.11.16.
Franz Helminger † 13.11.16.
Friedrich Bernatzki † 7.3.17.
Friedrich Bernatzki † 5.4.17.
Fritz Schliewe † 14.6.17.
August Ziadak † 6.7.17.
Wilhelm Hoffmann † 1.8.17.
Rudolf Kittelmann † 12.9.17.
Emil Gudrian † 17.11.17.
August Jeglinski † 20.2.18.
Gustav Trawny † 28.3.18.
Gustav Kutschewski † 10.4.18.
Friedrich Butzek † 10.4.18.
Friedich Potschwadek † 17.4.18.
Gottl. Kwiatkowski † 27.4.18.
Johann Josephowitz † 10.6.18.
Otto Sdrenka † 5.7.18.
Kurt Eitner † 28.8.18.
Otto Buttler † 29.8.18.
Gustav Buttler † 8.10.18.
Gustav Klosz † 24.10.18.
Johann Danelzik † 2.11.18.
Johann Przystawik † 8.3.20.

[Peterski]

Karl Pissanski
Gottlieb Lommot
August Piotrowski
Ernst Klimmek

http://s12.postimg.org/al40g4f7x/image.jpg

https://s3.postimg.io/b2jm8u2a9/DSCF4606.jpg

https://s3.postimg.io/b3tk29441/DSCF4580.jpg

https://s9.postimg.org/emi2g1fyl/image.jpg


Johann "John" Naschinski was born 21 August 1858 in Kunchengut, Kreis Osterode, Ostpreussen, the son of Adam Naschinski and Katharina Rykowski. He married Maria Rettkowski and had the following children: Gustav, Emil, Marie, Emma, Wilhelm, Martha, Elfrieda, Amelia Charlott, Louise, and Adina Anna. Maria Rettkowski was born in East Prussia, the daughter of Daniel Rettkowski and Marie Witwiski.

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/find-a-grave-prod/photos/2009/0/5492069_123085280265.jpg

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/find-a-grave-prod/photos/2005/3/5492008_110485634130.jpg


According to the back of his immigration card in the "U.S., Border Crossings from Canada to U.S., 1895-1956" database (ancestry.com), Leopold Bardeschewski's / Bardischewski's birthplace is given as Langendorf, Kreis Sensburg - which is located in the former German Province of East Prussia.

https://s31.postimg.org/6djpm2m4p/132723782_1435944526.jpg


Edward Kordatsky was born in Sommerau, Kreis Rosenberg, West Prussia (now Ząbrowo, Województwo Warmińsko-Mazurskie, Republic of Poland), the third son of Peter and Wilhelmine (Ehlert) Kordatzki. He arrived in Baltimore on March 29, 1890 aboard the steamship SS Rhein from Bremen.

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/find-a-grave-prod/photos/2010/222/24886075_128159041879.jpg


Friedrich "Fred" Woickowski / Woiczechowski was born in Gross Starkenau, Westpreussen, Germany (now Starzykowo, Ilawa, Warminsko-Mazurskie, Poland).

https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/find-a-grave-prod/photos/2009/348/34773291_126088440027.jpg


Wilhelm Schittek was born 27 May 1893 in Mingfen, Landkreis Ortelsburg, Königsburg, Germany

https://s31.postimg.org/szp0yszux/76529607_138610033006.jpg

[Peterski]

http://goldap.org.pl/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/zabin_I_wojna_7.jpg

http://goldap.org.pl/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/zabin_I_wojna_10.jpg

http://s32.postimg.org/ivn7y76o5/image.jpg

G. GLOWIENKA
F. ZARNETZKI
F. STURMOWSKI
J. PIPLACK
R. WEISSNER
M. GLOWIENKA
R. FALLAK
H. WISCHNIEWSKI
K. PICHOTTKA
G. HEYDASCH
E. SCHELLONG
G. GEINIG
O. STABBA
F. HÜBNER
K. WLOTZKA
E. LIEBELT
P. JORZIK
P. SCHIEMANN
A. CHOCHOLEK
R. GRANITZA
H. HEYDASCH
R. BORRIES
D. GÖRKE

http://s33.postimg.org/fz3wc5gu7/szczecinki_tablica.jpg

Emil Alexy
Aug. Buberreck
Herm. Balzer
Fritz Bannasch
Otto Bannasch
Johann Bernecker
Karl Belusa
August Buberrek
Gustav Buberrek
August Czylmik
Fritz Dombrowski
August Dwojakowski
Friedrich Dwojakowski
Ludwig Dybus
Franz Domass
Ludwig Dybus
Adolf Dudda
Fritz Dusay
Max Dusay
Paul Dzikonski
Fritz Guthold
Franz Härich
Otto Himwert
Gust. Koss
Friedr. Konopka
Gust. Kowalzik
Franz Knoch
Gust. Knoch
Joh. Krupinski
Karl Krusko
Franz Kütza
Ernst Kulessa
Hermann Kullack
Fritz Kupczyk
August Lapschiess
August Lyss
Otto Lyss
Richard Lyss
Gust. Nientkewitz
Jak. Nowak
Aug. Ollech
Franz Polatzek
Paul Polatzek
Ad. Radzio
Fritz Reuter
Fr. Rieck
Fr. Romanowski
Gust. Romanowski
Max Romanowski
Julius Schütz
Ludwig Schütz
Gustav Siegmund
Otto Schwarz
Paul Schwarz
Friedr. Sawitzki
Albert Struwe
Herm. Sych
Adam Tertel
Franz Tertel
Herm. Tertel
Friedr. Trochim
Lud. Ulkowski
Gustav Well
Ernst Weidekamm
Friedr. Weidekamm
Karl Wieczorek
Friedrich Wrobel
Otto Zander

[Rethel]

A to znowu ci się odmieniło i na patrylinearność się nawróciłeś?

[Peterski]

Michael Choynowski (†1870) and Friedrich Lipka (†1871):

http://s12.postimg.org/ud8f4tv5p/image.jpg

Carl Chrzanowski (†1866):

http://s12.postimg.org/w2hicwav1/image.jpg

Buwellno
Richard Pietraß, † 17.11.14

Chmielewen
Robert Wietrek, † 20.11.14
Richard Kurtnik, † 29.12.14
Johann Glebba, † 2.2.15
Johann Oßa, † 27.3.15
Rob. Jastrzemski, † 6.4.18
Emil Kurtnik, † 21.4.18

Dombrowken
Fritz Soboll, † 27.8.14
Gustav Sartorius, † 11.9.14
Paul Nagurka, † 29.11.14
Karl Slowik, † 28.12.14
Wilh. Bahr, † 27.3.15
Friedrich David, † 9.9.15
Fritz Drzewek, † 20.9.15
Gust. Sarzecki, † 30.9.15
Ludwig Lojewski, † 6.10.15
Gust. Möwe, † 6.5.16
Herm. Balzer, † 21.9.16
Friedr. Huser, 4.9.17
August Soboll, † 13.9.17
Ant. Wessollek, † 22.1.18
Gust. Sabor, † 31.3.18
Adolf Schillak, † 17.7.18
Friedr. Andrischewski, † 13.9.17
Paul Steffens, † 8.8.18
Eduard Prengel, † 1915
(...)

http://s7.postimg.org/ibpjau74b/p6140062.jpg

Wilh. Badorrek, † 17.11.1917
Fritz Bloch, † 20.5.1918
Gustav Badorrek, † 19.3.1915
Otto Sczepan, † 26.10.1918
Otto Konietzka, † 21.12.1918
Aug. Merchel, † 17.12.1915
Wilh. Bannach, † 28.10.1914
Otto Gosdzienski, † 27.7.1916
Julius Janowski, † 1.9.1914
Johann Ksionsek, † 10.8.1915
August Lork, † 29.10.1914
Emil Blech, † 1.4.1915
Wilh. Sczepan, † 17.10.1917
Gustav Napierski, † 17.10.1918

http://s27.postimg.org/f1q2ny2wz/p6261048.jpg

Gottlieb Latza
Emanuel Schutter
Gottlieb Rosmanek
Jacob Zielinski
Christoph Grzesnÿ
Michael Macieÿ
Johann Mroczek

http://s11.postimg.org/6g2u443pf/dscf5690.jpg

For comparison some Germans from Germany:

http://www.kn-online.de/var/storage/images/kn/in-ausland/politik/weniger-tuerken-empfinden-deutschland-als-ihre-heimat/24104534-2-ger-DE/Weniger-Tuerken-empfinden-Deutschland-als-ihre-Heimat_ArtikelQuer.jpg

[Peterski]

Surnames of East Prussian soldiers from Kąpity/Kompitten, Biesal/Biessellen, Tomaszyn/Tomascheinen, Mańki/Manchengut, Mycyny/Meitzen, Zezuty/Sensutten, Gębiny/Heinrichsdorf, Makruty/Makrauten, Spoguny/Spogahnen, Guzowy Piec/Gusenofen, Witułty/Witulten, Jadaminy/Adamsgut, Samagowo/Sabangen, Śródka/Mittelgut, Zezuj/Sensujen who died during WW1:

Emil Koschorrek, Biessellen. † 20.8.14
Aug. Schwezig, Tomascheinen. † 23.8.14
Adolf. Gross, Manchengut. † 11.9.14
Wilh. Wÿrostek, Manchengut. † 9.14
Rudolf Windt, Tomascheinen. † 11.10.14

Aug. Brosda, Kompitten. † 15.10.14
Paul Striewski, Meitzen. † 16.10.14
Paul Krajewski, Sensutten. † 18.10.14
Paul Mazinski, Biessellen [Biesellen]. † 25.10.14
Herm. Kollack, Heinrichsd. † 29.10.14.

Adolf Uschack, Makrauten. † 18.11.14
Gust. Kitscha, Biessellen. † 6.12.14
Robert Pokojewski, Manchengut. † 25.12.14
Karl Brosda, Spogahnen. † 8.2.15
Erich Bahlo, Biessellen. † 22.2.15

Aug. Brosda, Spogahnen. † 12.2.15
Ed. Kischelewski, Spogahnen. † 23.2.15
Emil Komorowski, Gusenofen. † 7.3.15
Erich Duscha, Heinrichsdorf. † 5.5.15
Adolf Lischewski, Gusenofen. † 6.5.15

Karl Grolla, Gusenofen. † 14.5.15
Otto Bastkowski, Witulten. † 9.6.15
Adolf Schumbrutzki, Adamsgut. † 22.6.15
Emil Schumbrutzki, Adamsgut. † 20.7.15
Emil Gralka, Gusenofen. † 30.6.15

Wilh. Kolodzeÿ, Sensutten. † 21.7.15
Gust. Kollack, Heinrichsdorf. † 26.7.15
Emil Malinowski, Gusenofen. † 26.7.15
Aug. Kollack, Heinrichsdorf. † 17.8.15
Wilh. Twardack, Manchengut. † 20.8.15

Fritz Zebrowski, Biessellen. † 10.9.15
Heinr. Zebrowski, Sabangen. † 15.9.15
Herm. Trawinski, Manchengut. † 24.9.15
Karl Rettkowski, Gusenofen. † 16.10.15
Rud. Zitzwitz, Tomascheinen. † 5.12.16

Heinr. Samel, Sensutten. † 28.2.16
Gust. Wischnewski, Mittelgut. † 5.3.16
Wilh. Taube, Gusenofen. † 17.3.16
Aug. Kitscha, Kompitten. † 21.3.16
Paul Witulski, Sensujen. † 9.7.16

Johann Wolowski, Mittelgut. † 31.8.16
Adolf Langowski, Mittelgut. † 29.9.16
Karl Samel, Sensutten. † 26.12.16
Karl Dankowski, Heinrichsdorf. † 15.2.17
Wilh. Mlodochowski, Kompitten. † 9.4.17

Gust. Sabelek, Biessellen. † 16.4.17
Otto Gross, Manchengut. † 21.4.17
Karl Pelka, Meitzen. † 22.4.17
Rud. Hildebrandt, Biessellen. † 20.5.17
Wilh. Schweda, Gusenofen. † 7.6.17

Julius Rzendowski, Tomascheinen. † 18.6.17
Gust. Hepprich, Manchengut. † 22.7.17
Emil Kopatzki, Tomascheinen. † 25.7.17
Wilh. Naglatzki, Manchengut. † 31.7.17
Adolf Scharnewski, Witulten. † 22.8.17

Christoph Augustin, Gusenofen. † 28.8.17
Wilh. Stach, Manchengut. † 27.9.17
Wilh. Kitscha, Biessellen. † 2.11.17
Emil Gerschöwski, Tomasch. † 9.12.17
Gust. Schwesig, Sabangen. † 21.3.18

Paul Schulz, Gusenofen. † 11.3.18
Aug. Gross, Gusenofen. † 30.3.18
Alb. Langowski, Gusenofen. † 1.4.18
Otto Belss, Witulten. † 5.4.18
Paul Bednarski, Gusenofen. † 11.4.18

Aug. Jedamski, Sensutten. † 13.4.18
Wilh. Pokojewski, Tomasch. † 28.5.18
Kurt Küssner, Mortzfeld. † 1.6.18
Herm. Komorowski, Gusenofen. † 6.6.18
Emil Samel, Sensutten [Senutten]. † 16.7.18

Herm. Rzendowski, Tomascheinen. † 17.7.18
Fritz Tÿbussek, Sabangen. † 17.7.18
Gust. Jakowski, Makrauten. † 19.7.18
Otto Spiewack, Manchengut. † 23.7.18
Adolf Pokojewski, Meitzen. † 24.7.18

Adolf Woÿna, Gusenofen. † 30.7.18
Gust. Twardack, Manchengut. † 20.8.18
Gust. Pannek, Manchengut. † 2.9.18
Gust. Schweda, Gusenofen. † 7.9.18
Otto Koschorrek, Biessellen. † 17.9.18

Wilh. Striewski, Biessellen. † 25.9.18
Paul Prazeus, Heinrichsdorf. † 30.9.18
Wilh. Krajewski, Sensutten. † 9.10.18
Herm. Twardack, Manchengut. † 8.10.18
Aug. Twardack, Manchengut. † 4.11.18

Wilh. Putzka, Biessellen. † 5.11.18
Adolf Schelongowski, Biessellen. † im Jahre 18
Otto Samel, Sensutten. † 12.3.19
Artur Elwitz, Makrauten. † 5.4.19
Wilh. Tulikowski, Gusenofen. † 13.10.19

Herm. Schwesig, Tomascheinen. † 11.8.20
Fried. Gromotka, Meitzen. † im Jahre 15
Emil Pschack, Manchengut. † 2.9.18
Gust. Schwesig, Manchengut. † 30.10.18
Paul Kniffka, Biessellen. † 30.9.18

=================

Günter Chrzonszcz from Stug.Abt.277 became Carsten after WW2:

https://forum.axishistory.com//viewtopic.php?f=50&t=70558&sid=528798d19c9f2907332cf6e69f4abd8b#p636627


Chrzonszcz, Günter - 23 kills (Stug.Abt.277)

last rank : Leutnant ; changed his surname to Carsten after the war

Other examples of Germanization of Polish surnames:

http://s11.postimg.org/sjguikygj/Surname_Germanization.png

http://s11.postimg.org/sjguikygj/Surname_Germanization.png

[Peterski]

Fallen soldiers from Groß Konopken (Konopki Wielkie):

FRIEDRICH BOGEL
FRIEDRICH BRZOSKA
JOH. CZEPLUG
JOH. CWALINNA
MAX. CZYGAN
FRIEDR. DEKARZ
EMIL/JOH. DENNIG
FRIEDRICH GROSS
AUG. KUTZBORSKI
GUST. PARACNIK
ADOLF. SCHARNA
HERM. STENZEL
GUSTAV WASCHK

http://images66.fotosik.pl/861/d103a45edeec6b95.jpg

http://images68.fotosik.pl/1024/6ddf06841c9c4d18.jpg

[Sekarotuinen]

East Prussia had been majority German for years following the Germanization of the native Wendish people undertaken by the crusaders, but many were forced to take Slavic last names by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, following their conquest of the area.

Those people were Germans by culture and by blood.

It is a shame the soviety deported them all from their homeland, and a greater shame that they then deported Poles from their rightful lands to the east to fill the void.

[Peterski]

East Prussia had been majority German for years following the Germanization of the native Wendish people undertaken by the crusaders, but many were forced to take Slavic last names by the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, following their conquest of the area.

Those people were Germans by culture and by blood.

Wrong.

1) The native population in East Prussia was Baltic Old Prussian, not Wendish:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?212757-Old-Prussian-ancestry-of-East-Prussians&p=4499310&viewfull=1#post4499310

2) There was actual Polish immigration to East Prussia from 1400 AD onwards:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?212757-Old-Prussian-ancestry-of-East-Prussians&p=4459328&viewfull=1#post4459328

[Rethel]

2) There was actual Polish immigration to East Prussia from 1400 AD onwards:

Even earlier, becasue Galindia was empty even before Krzyżakis arrived.

[Sekarotuinen]

Wrong.

1) The native population in East Prussia was Baltic Old Prussian, not Wendish:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?212757-Old-Prussian-ancestry-of-East-Prussians&p=4499310&viewfull=1#post4499310

2) There was actual Polish immigration to East Prussia from 1400 AD onwards:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?212757-Old-Prussian-ancestry-of-East-Prussians&p=4459328&viewfull=1#post4459328
Of EAST Prussia, not of west Prussia. By the 20th century Balts were only present in Memel.

[Peterski]

Of EAST Prussia, not of west Prussia. By the 20th century Balts were only present in Memel.

Original East Prussia is everything to the east of the Vistula River.

Here is the ethno-linguistic map of the area around year 1815:

https://s29.postimg.org/eson19i79/Prussia_ethnic_1800_B.png

There were also Curonians, who lived along the Curonian Spit:

http://wiki-commons.genealogy.net/images/9/92/Bild_Karte_Das_lettische_Sprachgebiet_in_Ostpreuss en.gif

This map shows the original homeland of Baltic Old Prussians:

https://s18.postimg.org/ugrj31r1l/Prussians.png

[Sekarotuinen]

East Prussia is everything to the east of the Vistula River.

Here is an ethno-linguistic map of the area as of ca. 1800:

https://s29.postimg.org/eson19i79/Prussia_ethnic_1800_B.png
LOL, that much of the land was not Baltic by the Napoleonic wars, you are kidding yourself. Napoleon took a census of the land and Balts were only a majority in memel.

[Peterski]

Ethnic statistics per county for areas with a lot of Polish-speaking population:

Sprache / Muttersprache = language
Konfession = religious denomination

1) Kreis Angerburg (Węgorzewo):

http://s12.postimg.org/4lykvlptp/Angerburg.png

2) Kreis Goldap (Gołdap):

http://s29.postimg.org/iawes28rb/Goldap.png

3) Kreis Johannisburg (Pisz):

http://s4.postimg.org/hp3y8108t/Johannisburg.png

4) Kreis Lötzen (Łuczany / Giżycko):

http://s4.postimg.org/qyapvvyil/Loetzen.png

5) Kreis Lyck (Łek / Ełk):

http://s12.postimg.org/abetfwvzx/Gumbinnen.png

6) Kreis Mohrungen (Morąg):

http://s7.postimg.org/gq21hrncb/Mohrungen.png

7) Kreis Neidenburg (Nibork / Nidzica):

http://s16.postimg.org/9767ssobp/Neiderung.png

8) Kreis Oletzko (Olecko):

http://s10.postimg.org/6z6gg6bvd/Oletzko.png

9) Kreis Ortelsburg (Szczytno):

http://s29.postimg.org/jfqgxfv87/Ortelsburg.png

10) Kreis Osterode (Ostróda):

http://s28.postimg.org/ydgjcysn1/Osterode.png

11) Kreis Rastenburg (Rastembork / Kętrzyn):

http://s8.postimg.org/fmiz13net/Rastenburg.png

12) Kreis Rosenberg (Susz):

http://s2.postimg.org/4n5ncnamx/Rosenberg.png

13) Kreis Sensburg (Ządzbork / Mrągowo):

http://s4.postimg.org/xftmfe8vx/Sensburg.png

14) Summary for Pisz, Lötzen, Lyck, Neidenburg, Oletzko, Ortelsburg, Osterode & Sensburg:

http://s13.postimg.org/pg7psa8zb/Summary_8_Kreise.png


LOL, that much of the land was not Baltic by the Napoleonic wars, you are kidding yourself. Napoleon took a census of the land and Balts were only a majority in memel.

No, all of that area was still very Lithuanian at the beginning of the 1800s.

Lithuanians declined in numbers only later, due to Germanization policies.

Percent of Lithuanian-speakers among the population of East Prussia:

Year - % of Lithuanian-speakers in East Prussia:

1820 - 18,52% (estimate)
1825 - 12,13% (census)
1837 - 11,49% (census)
1848 - 10,26% (census)
1871 - 7,65% (census)
1878 - 6,91% (census)
1890 - 6,19% (census)

^^^ It continued to decline after 1890, but I don't have exact data.

If you think that those people were "German by blood" just because they stopped speaking Lithuanian and started speaking German (due to Germanization policies), you are fooling yourself.

[Sekarotuinen]

Ethnic statistics per county for areas with a lot of Polish-speaking population:

Sprache / Muttersprache = language
Konfession = religious denomination

1) Kreis Angerburg (Węgorzewo):

http://s12.postimg.org/4lykvlptp/Angerburg.png

2) Kreis Goldap (Gołdap):

http://s29.postimg.org/iawes28rb/Goldap.png

3) Kreis Johannisburg (Pisz):

http://s4.postimg.org/hp3y8108t/Johannisburg.png

4) Kreis Lötzen (Łuczany / Giżycko):

http://s4.postimg.org/qyapvvyil/Loetzen.png

5) Kreis Lyck (Łek / Ełk):

http://s12.postimg.org/abetfwvzx/Gumbinnen.png

6) Kreis Mohrungen (Morąg):

http://s7.postimg.org/gq21hrncb/Mohrungen.png

7) Kreis Neidenburg (Nibork / Nidzica):

http://s16.postimg.org/9767ssobp/Neiderung.png

8) Kreis Oletzko (Olecko):

http://s10.postimg.org/6z6gg6bvd/Oletzko.png

9) Kreis Ortelsburg (Szczytno):

http://s29.postimg.org/jfqgxfv87/Ortelsburg.png

10) Kreis Osterode (Ostróda):

http://s28.postimg.org/ydgjcysn1/Osterode.png

11) Kreis Rastenburg (Rastembork / Kętrzyn):

http://s8.postimg.org/fmiz13net/Rastenburg.png

12) Kreis Rosenberg (Susz):

http://s2.postimg.org/4n5ncnamx/Rosenberg.png

13) Kreis Sensburg (Ządzbork / Mrągowo):

http://s4.postimg.org/xftmfe8vx/Sensburg.png

14) Summary for Pisz, Lötzen, Lyck, Neidenburg, Oletzko, Ortelsburg, Osterode & Sensburg:

http://s13.postimg.org/pg7psa8zb/Summary_8_Kreise.png



No, all of that area was still very Lithuanian at the beginning of the 1800s.

Lithuanians declined in numbers only later, due to Germanization policies.

Percent of Lithuanian-speakers among the population of East Prussia:

Year - % of Lithuanian-speakers in East Prussia:

1825 - 12,13%
1837 - 11,49%
1848 - 10,26%
1871 - 7,65%
1878 - 6,91%
1890 - 6,19%

^^^ It continued to decline after 1890, but I don't have exact data.

If you think that those people were "German by blood" just because they stopped speaking Lithuanian and started speaking German (due to Germanization policies), you are fooling yourself.
No, they werent German by blood, but as your own charts prove, Balts assimilated to either Polish or German culture and language and by the Napoleonic wars they were a small minority.

[Peterski]

No, they werent German by blood, but as your own charts prove, Balts assimilated to either Polish or German culture and language and by the Napoleonic wars they were a small minority.

Here I agree with you.

Actually the original Old Prussian language got extinct already in the 1700s, but some Old Prussians also assimilated into Lithuanian culture. There was Lithuanian immigration as well.

That's why Lithuanian was spoken in eastern part of East Prussia.


and by the Napoleonic wars they were a small minority.

But eastern parts of East Prussia were sparsely populated.

They were a minority but inhabited a quite large area.

[Peterski]

And data from von Haxthausen's book for year 1825:

Regierungs-Bezirk Gumbinnen:

Name der Kreise - deutsche / polnische / lithaunische:

Kreis Johannisburg - 2146 / 28552 / -
Kreis Lyck - 3296 / 26144 / -
Kreis Sensburg - 3769 / 22391 / 5
Kreis Lötzen - 2959 / 18449 / -
Kreis Oletzko - 4734 / 18828 / 22
Kreis Angerburg - 11756 / 12535 / 60

Kreis Goldapp - 17412 / 3940 / 3559

Kreis Stallupönen - 20430 / 356 / 5435
Kreis Darkehmen - 20373 / 485 / 2992

Kreis Gumbinnen - 33651 / 19 / 254

Kreis Heydekrug - 6446 / - / 16502
Kreis Niederung - 18711 / 291 / 18336
Kreis Tilsit - 19283 / 660 / 18057
Kreis Ragnit - 17140 / 192 / 15522
Kreis Pillkallen - 17032 / - / 11271
Kreis Insterburg - 30393 / - / 10108

Regierungs-Bezirk Königsberg:

Name der Kreise - deutsche / polnische / lithaunische:

Kreis Ortelsburg - 3100 / 34928 / -
Kreis Neidenburg - 2149 / 27467 / 1
Kreis Allenstein - 4927 / 25530 / -
Kreis Osterode - 8920 / 22552 / -

Kreis Rößel - 23927 / 6778 / -
Kreis Rastenburg - 28034 / 1744 / -

Kreis Memel - 16440 / 27 / 24196
Kreis Labiau - 25182 / 43 / 12948

Kreis Mohrungen - 34473 / 883 / -
(...)

I listed counties with significant Polish or Lithuanian populations.

[Peterski]

Teutonic Order GEDmatch results:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?221019-Teutonic-Order-German-GEDmatch

Old Prussian ancestry estimates:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?212757-Old-Prussian-ancestry-of-East-Prussians

[Peterski]

Sorry, wrong thread.

[Bobby Martnen]

The border changes after WWII weren't justifiable at all from an ethnic or moral standpoint. That said, reverting them now would fall into the category of "two wrongs don't make a right"

[Óttar]

Well they sure af had German forenames, and not all of their surnames are Polish.

[Peterski]

The border changes after WWII weren't justifiable at all from an ethnic or moral standpoint.

I have to disagree. Taking land away from Germany was justifiable because they started and then lost the war. East Prussia should have never become part of Germany to begin with, because it had no land connection with the rest of Germany.

If anything it could be a separate state like Switzerland for example.

[Bobby Martnen]

I have to disagree. Taking land away from Germany was justifiable because they started and then lost the war. East Prussia should have never become part of Germany to begin with, because it had no land connection with the rest of Germany.

If anything it could be a separate state like Switzerland for example.

Ethnically cleansing tens of millions of people because of the actions of their government is not justifiable. Giving some border areas with a mostly Polish or mixed population would have been fine, giving away the eastern quarter of the country and violently expelling all of the inhabitants was a war crime committed by Stalin.

Alaska has no land connection with America, should it never have become part of America?

[Peterski]

Most of them escaped on their own before the war ended. See here:

http://s17.postimg.org/p21tw8a67/Page_1.png
http://s22.postimg.org/freqd79yp/Page_2.png
http://s24.postimg.org/o5nsps5ph/Page_3.png
http://s18.postimg.org/nmjaxy6sp/Page_4.png
http://s13.postimg.org/cm2ehqpdj/Page_5.png
http://s16.postimg.org/eunh1k145/Page_6.png
http://s27.postimg.org/zbn0otcwj/Refugees.png
http://s13.postimg.org/w2b64jc3b/Refugees_2.png

And Christopher Duffy in his "Red Storm on the Reich" wrote:

"(...) Again and again we hear of the Russian tank forces opening fire on trains, or driving straight down columns of civilian refugees, crushing people and animals and machine-gunning the survivors in the ditches and fields. Massacre, rape and plunder contributed to the very marked decline in discipline that was evident in the last ten days of January, when the Russians moved into German territory. The marshals were appalled, and in his ferocious order of 27 January [1945] Konev cited a number of spectacular lapses and gave a long list of commanders who had been consigned to penal battalions. One of his officers remarked on a tank battalion where the tanks were so tightly packed with loot and plunder that the members of the crew could not move inside and would have been unable to go into action in case of emergency. (...) The Russian way with German civilians first became known after the Germans recaptured the town of Nemmersdorf in East Prussia, which was the scene of a wholesale massacre of the population in October 1944. This experience was relived on every theatre of the Eastern Front, and on every occasion it provoked in the German troops an intense desire for revenge. In Silesia the grisly findings extended into March. At Sagan the Germans beat Russians to death with shovels and rifle butts; at Striegau, which was cleared by the 208th Infantry Division, the few surviving civilians were wandering around literally out of their minds. 'After Striegau there was no question of giving quarter. When the soldiers were asked to hold themselves back, they replied in words to the effect that: 'After what we saw and lived through at Striegau, you can't ask us to take prisoners' (Ahlfen, 1977, 169; see also Neidhardt, 1981, 379). (...)"

That triggered a huge panic-driven flight of German civilians:

"(...) As early as 28 January 1945, the Wehrmacht calculated that 3.5 million German civilians were on the move in the East. By the end of the war the number of German non-combatants fleeing from the Russians had nearly doubled to about 7 million. Most of those who tried to stay in their homes were evicted after the war, a process which by 1950 brought the number of Germans displaced by the Russians and their clients to a final total of 11 million. (...)"

And who says about expelling the rest? They can stay, but the territory goes to Poland.

I mean that's what I would do: annex the area with the inhabitants.


Alaska has no land connection with America, should it never have become part of America?

The USA did not invade Canada and start a World War over land connection with Alaska.

And they did not genocide 6 million of Canadians in the process.

[Bobby Martnen]

Most of them escaped on their own before the war ended. See here:

http://s17.postimg.org/p21tw8a67/Page_1.png
http://s22.postimg.org/freqd79yp/Page_2.png
http://s24.postimg.org/o5nsps5ph/Page_3.png
http://s18.postimg.org/nmjaxy6sp/Page_4.png
http://s13.postimg.org/cm2ehqpdj/Page_5.png
http://s16.postimg.org/eunh1k145/Page_6.png
http://s27.postimg.org/zbn0otcwj/Refugees.png
http://s13.postimg.org/w2b64jc3b/Refugees_2.png

And Christopher Duffy in his "Red Storm on the Reich" wrote:

"(...) Again and again we hear of the Russian tank forces opening fire on trains, or driving straight down columns of civilian refugees, crushing people and animals and machine-gunning the survivors in the ditches and fields. Massacre, rape and plunder contributed to the very marked decline in discipline that was evident in the last ten days of January, when the Russians moved into German territory. The marshals were appalled, and in his ferocious order of 27 January [1945] Konev cited a number of spectacular lapses and gave a long list of commanders who had been consigned to penal battalions. One of his officers remarked on a tank battalion where the tanks were so tightly packed with loot and plunder that the members of the crew could not move inside and would have been unable to go into action in case of emergency. (...) The Russian way with German civilians first became known after the Germans recaptured the town of Nemmersdorf in East Prussia, which was the scene of a wholesale massacre of the population in October 1944. This experience was relived on every theatre of the Eastern Front, and on every occasion it provoked in the German troops an intense desire for revenge. In Silesia the grisly findings extended into March. At Sagan the Germans beat Russians to death with shovels and rifle butts; at Striegau, which was cleared by the 208th Infantry Division, the few surviving civilians were wandering around literally out of their minds. 'After Striegau there was no question of giving quarter. When the soldiers were asked to hold themselves back, they replied in words to the effect that: 'After what we saw and lived through at Striegau, you can't ask us to take prisoners' (Ahlfen, 1977, 169; see also Neidhardt, 1981, 379). (...)"

That triggered a huge panic-driven flight of German civilians:

"(...) As early as 28 January 1945, the Wehrmacht calculated that 3.5 million German civilians were on the move in the East. By the end of the war the number of German non-combatants fleeing from the Russians had nearly doubled to about 7 million. Most of those who tried to stay in their homes were evicted after the war, a process which by 1950 brought the number of Germans displaced by the Russians and their clients to a final total of 11 million. (...)"

And who says about expelling the rest? They can stay, but the territory goes to Poland.

I mean that's what I would do: annex the area with the inhabitants.



The USA did not invade Canada and start a World War over land connection with Alaska.

And they did not genocide 6 million of Canadians in the process.

In my opinion, two wrongs don't make a right. Instead of letting those who fled the Red Army become refugees, the allies should have guaranteed them a safe return to their homelands, and also ensured that no borders were changed.

The only reason any borders were shifted were Stalin's lust for more land.

I'm not advocating a return of the Eastern formerly German territories now, nor do I think Poland has any blame for what happened, but I still think it was wrong and it shouldn't have happened.

[Peterski]

In my opinion, two wrongs don't make a right. Instead of letting those who fled the Red Army become refugees, the allies should have guaranteed them a safe return to their homelands, and also ensured that no borders were changed.

I'm not advocating a return of the Eastern formerly German territories now, nor do I think Poland has any blame for what happened, but I still think it was wrong and it shouldn't have happened.

Territorial change wasn't wrong, those were rightfully Polish lands anyway.

Just because someone speaks German doesn't mean they have to be part of Germany. The whole idea of ethnic-based nation states is stupid, and it was never implemented in Western Europe (Spain, France, Italy, Belgium, Switzerland and the UK have always been multi-ethnic).

BTW, when is the USA going to give California back to Mexico? Already 45% of its population are Hispanics, and soon they will be the majority.

You stole it from Mexico in 1848 and expelled its Hispanic inhabitants to the south.


The only reason any borders were shifted were Stalin's lust for more land.

Sorry but this is total bullshit. Your President and British Prime Minister also wanted it. Ever heard about the Morgenthau Plan? Its implementation was also seriously considered.

BTW, my family lost many lifes during WW2. Mainly murdered by the Germans. And then you sold my country to Commies for 45 years. Americans have no moral high ground.


In my opinion, two wrongs don't make a right.

As I said, expulsion was wrong, but annexation of territory was right. Nothing wrong about it at all. That had been Polish land before.

In fact Americans planned to totally dismantle Germany and split it into several smaller countries, but later changed their mind.

[Peterski]

and also ensured that no borders were changed.

After every war, the losers have to cede some territory to the victors.

It works like this since the beginning of human civilization. Look for example what happened to Paraguay after the War of the Triple Alliance. I don't know why do you think that Germans deserved special treatment despite starting a World War and genociding entire nations.

Not to mention that support for Hitler was especially high among Eastern Germans, ca. 50% of them were fervent Nazis.

In fact I believe that Stalin showed mercy by letting them live.

[Bobby Martnen]

Territorial change wasn't wrong, those were rightfully Polish lands anyway.

Just because someone speaks German doesn't mean they have to be part of Germany. The whole idea of ethnic-based nation states is stupid, and it was never implemented in Western Europe (Spain, France, Italy, Belgium, Switzerland and the UK have always been multi-ethnic).

BTW, when is the USA going to give California back to Mexico? Already 45% of its population are Hispanics, and soon they will be the majority.

You stole it from Mexico in 1848 and expelled its Hispanic inhabitants to the south.



Sorry but this is total bullshit. Your President and British Prime Minister also wanted it. Ever heard about the Morgenthau Plan? Its implementation was also seriously considered.

BTW, my family lost many lifes during WW2. Mainly murdered by the Germans. And then you sold my country to Commies for 45 years. Americans have no moral high ground.



As I said, expulsion was wrong, but annexation of territory was right. Nothing wrong about it at all. That had been Polish land before.

In fact Americans planned to totally dismantle Germany and split it into several smaller countries, but later changed their mind.

It's clear that we have fundamentally different worldviews about ethnicity and nationality.

Hispanics have mostly immigrated to California in the last 60 years - it's completely different from Pomerania et. al.

Roosevelt and Churchill betrayed Eastern Europe, I don't disagree on that. I don't think they have moral high ground.

Some of the land had been Polish almost a millenia before - it would be like Greece claiming all of Asia Minor, the Levant, and Egypt based on the Byzantine Empire.


After every war, the losers have to cede some territory to the victors.

It works like this since the beginning of human civilization. Look for example what happened to Paraguay after the War of the Triple Alliance. I don't know why do you think that Germans deserved special treatment despite starting a World War and genociding entire nations.

Not to mention that support for Hitler was especially high among Eastern Germans, ca. 50% of them were fervent Nazis.

In fact I believe that Stalin showed mercy by letting them live.

France didn't lose any French territory after Napoleon (I'm not counting Napoleon's conquests - Germany should have lost all land conquered after 1933, but not Weimar land)

Paraguayans are linguistically and culturally very similar to their neighbors, unlike Germans and Poles. That's more equivalent to Canada annexing Oregon without any ethnic cleansing.

At least the craziest idea (Germany loses all land east of the Elbe) didn't pass.

[Peterski]

Paraguayans are linguistically and culturally very similar to their neighbors.

No they aren't. Ask any Argentinian, Uruguayan or Brazilian if Paraguay is culturally close.

For example Brazilians speak Portuguese while Paraguayans speak Spanish and Guarani.


Hispanics have mostly immigrated to California in the last 60 years.

California was part of Mexico all the way until 1848, and Spanish colonies before that.

Nowadays Mexicans who immigrate to California are just returning to their native lands.


Some of the land had been Polish almost a millenia before.

But most of it had been Polish much more recently. For example entire East Prussia had been Polish until 1657, and some parts of East Prussia had been Polish even longer - until the First Partition in 1772 (for example the region of Warmia).

[Bobby Martnen]

No they aren't. Ask any Argentinian, Uruguayan or Brazilian if Paraguay is culturally close.

For example Brazilians speak Portuguese while Paraguayans speak Spanish and Guarani.



California was part of Mexico all the way until 1848, and Spanish colonies before that.

Nowadays Mexicans who immigrate to California are just returning to their native lands.



But most of it had been Polish much more recently. For example entire East Prussia had been Polish until 1657, and some parts of East Prussia had been Polish even longer - until the First Partition in 1772 (for example the region of Warmia).

I don't know much about South America, sorry if I misrepresented things there.

There was virtually no Hispanic population in the American Southwest - the vast majority of Hispanics were in the land that is today Mexican.

I'm talking about Silesia, Pomerania, and West Brandenburg. East Prussia was a unique case, but had a mostly German population, and thus should have become an independent state - a Baltic Austria - if detached from Germany.

I also want to make it clear that I don't think Poland is to blame for the ethnic cleansing or border changes, nor do I think they should be reversed today. They were a nasty part of the past that shouldn't have happened, and I think it's important to recognize that they were unjust, but that they cannot be reverted without an even greater injustice.

[Peterski]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Confederation


The Prussian Confederation (German: Preußischer Bund, Polish: Związek Pruski) was an organization formed on 21 February 1440 at Marienwerder by a group of 53 nobles and clergy and 19 cities in Prussia, to oppose the arbitrariness of the Teutonic Knights. It was based on the basis of an earlier similar organization, the Lizard Union established in 1397 by Chełmno Land nobles. In 1454, the leader of the Confederation, Johannes von Baysen (Jan Bażyński), formally asked King Casimir IV Jagiellon, to incorporate Prussia into the Kingdom of Poland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lizard_Union_(medieval)


The Lizard Union or Lizard League (German: Eidechsenbund; Polish: Związek Jaszczurczy) was an organization of Prussian nobles and knights established in Culmerland (Chełmno Land) in 1397. Its declared goal was to combat lawlessness, although it discreetly sought the transfer of Culmerland from the Teutonic Knights to Poland.[1] The union was founded by Nicholas von Renys, John of Pulkow, Frederick of Kitnow, and Nicholas of Kitnow. It was named after its emblem, a lizard (eyne eydechse), and expanded its influence to other provinces. (...) it laid the foundation of the later Prussian Confederation, which requested the annexation of the Monastic State of the Teutonic Knights into Poland in 1454.