No to the multietnic national team!

[Foxy]

http://www.calciomercato.com/prima-pagina/il-caso-italia-multietnica-lo-striscione-prandelli-balotelli-e-zenga-il-sondaggio-462577

On Wednesday, during the friendly match of Klagenfurt (Italy-Romania), a group of Italian fans of <<Ultrà Italia>> shows a banner with the words "No to the multiethnic Italy" and welcomes with a "buuuu" the two players Cristian Ladesma and Mario Balotelli, respectively Italian-Argentinian and Italian-Ghanese.

The banner has been removed after some minutes and a poll made on Calciomercato after this event shows that 62% of voters are in favour of a multiethnic national team.


My question is: who is Italian and what is the base of the Italianess for you?

[Libertas]

http://www.calciomercato.com/prima-pagina/il-caso-italia-multietnica-lo-striscione-prandelli-balotelli-e-zenga-il-sondaggio-462577

On Wednesday, during the friendly match of Klagenfurt (Italy-Romania), a group of Italian fans of <<Ultrà Italia>> shows a banner with the words "No to the multiethnic Italy" and welcomes with a "buuuu" the two players Cristian Ladesma and Mario Balotelli, respectively Italian-Argentinian and Italian-Ghanese.

The banner has been removed after some minutes and a poll made on Calciomercato after this event shows that 62% of voters are in favour of a multiethnic national team.
My question is: who is Italian and what is the base of the Italianess for you?

If 62pc are truly in favour of a multi-ethnic Italy team then all I can say is: "Those whom the gods would destroy they first make mad."

[Tyrrhenoi]

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My question is: who is Italian and what is the base of the Italianess for you?

-Language and blood - no more, no less (just like the Jus Sanguinis tells)

[Debaser11]

Doomed. And Italy is supposed to be one of the more vigorous states.

The white peoples of the world don't even believe they have a legitimate right to a soccer team that reflects THEM. How senile. Truly the multi-cultural rhetoric and battlecries that come from the mouths of hapless whites represent the death pangs of a decaying race soon to be wiped clean off the slate as any meaningful entity.

[Wyn]

Doomed. And Italy is supposed to be one of the more vigorous states.

Does anybody have any up to date Italian statistics or 'official' (not necessarily to be trusted, but just something to go by) estimates regarding immigration/ethnic groups etc?


The white peoples of the world don't even believe they have a legitimate right to a soccer team that reflects THEM.

Silence, Nazi!



Truly the multi-cultural rhetoric and battlecries that come from the mouths of hapless whites represent the death pangs of a decaying race soon to be wiped clean off the slate as any meaningful entity.

Those opposed to the multikult (or antikult) can at least say we had no hand in advancing this state of affairs and can try to 'keep things going' for as long as possible. Dum spiro spero - While I breathe, I hope.

[Tyrrhenoi]

Does anybody have any up to date Italian statistics or 'official' (not necessarily to be trusted, but just something to go by) estimates regarding immigration/ethnic groups etc?

No, no figures - but the immigration laws are one of the hardest in Europe -

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8170187.stm

[Foxy]

Well, Italians usually associate them as being a mixed country. Let me explain better what I mean with "mixed". I don't mean that we are partially black and partially white, like many Southern American countries, but, since pre-history, Italy was settled by at least, an with "at least" I mean that the effective number could be far superior, by 5 peoples (Celts, Greeks, Italics, Etruscans and some Pelasgian peoples, especially in the South). The same Romans were a mix of Latins and Sabines (Italics) and Etruscan. To this already complicated ethnic group, it must be added the following invasions: at least 4 germanic peoples (Longobards, Normans, Franks and Ostrogotes, but also Vandals and Visigothes came in the peninsula), Arabs, who occupied Sicily and some coasts of Apulia and Calabria, Bizantines, then, in more recent times, French troops, Spanish troops and Austrians.
To this you have to add also the Albaneses who came in 5 different invasions in Italy, especially after the invasion of the Balkans by the Turks, Albanians who were allowed to enter Italy as mercenaries or as colons by Spaniards and also by some Italian cities, including Venice.
Other slavs were sent as colons in Friuli and some operated in Venice, as the Serenissima had regular trades with the Balkans (obviously also many Italians went to the Balkans, especially in Istria and Dalmatia).

So, my question was, who is Italian? What makes a person Italian? Only the language? Which are those elements that Italians, from Friuli to Sicily, share in common?

[Murphy]

Nations will always be multi-ethnic. Always have been and always will be. I see no problem with minority ethnic groups playing in a national team. It should not be like France though. It should be fair.

[Tyrrhenoi]

So, my question was, who is Italian? What makes a person Italian? Only the language? Which are those elements that Italians, from Friuli to Sicily, share in common?

Let me put it like this:
If someone can prepare a great 'Ossobuco alla Milanese' -
then that person can call itself Italian ;):D -

http://www.essen-und-trinken.de/food/images/rezepte/klassiker/ossobuco/ossobuco-gross.jpg

It's haute cuisine - al' Italiana ;)

[Foxy]

@Tyrrenoi: maybe yours was a joke, but if you read the thread "the Italian identity" (that I must still finish anyway) you see that some people saw in the cuisine an element of unification. Other elements of Italianess are : the art (Italian art has got an own style), the architecture of city, almost all neo-classical, with arcs and columns that remind the Roman style, the language, the cuisine (though these two elements are often mixed with local peculiarities), the familism, the oligarchy, the relations with the Church and the position of the intellectuals and the historical absence of the State (these last elements will be explained in the thread I have mentioned you). :)
What we know is that Italy ran the risk to finish like the Balkans (totally divided and in a constant war), on the contrary Italians are today more or less all in the same State (except Italian -Suisses and Italians of Dalmatia and Istria) and, despite the disputes we have, we are pretty united, I mean, we feel a nation. :)

[Falkata]

Balotelli case is complicated. He was born in Palermo (ganhese parents) and he was adopted by an italian family when he was 3 years old. +
Christian Ledesma is just a mestizo argentinian dude with some italian ancestry (like the majority of argentinians) who arrived to the Calcio a few years ago...
By blood Ledesma is more italian. By culture, Balotelli is.

[Heretik]

What we know is that Italy ran the risk to finish like the Balkans (totally divided and in a constant war),

Sad to see that even our neighbors see things here as americans do. And italians had their share of involvement in events on the balkans. Not directly but ethnic intolerance didn't come from itself.

[Wyn]

Nations will always be multi-ethnic. Always have been and always will be.

Do you mean state? The 'nation' by definition is a collection of individuals with shared ethnic backgrounds/ancestries.


I see no problem with minority ethnic groups playing in a national team. It should not be like France though. It should be fair.

In that case, where is the line drawn? If you see no problem with it why is there anything wrong with the 'French' team?

[San Galgano]

Since multietnich countries, thanks to our western values, are becoming day after day a reality who seems like an inarrestable process(unfortunately), the only thing i can say IMO, the italians are:
1)The ones with a well known italian ancestry(i read the various preromans people you mentioned. Those are our ancestors by now, not an ancient melting pot, otherwise almost all Europe would be a preroman melting pot) .
2)The mixed italians like Ledesma, with a christian background and with many italian values, who will be not a problem when facing hordes of muslims in future.
3)Every foreign who will feel like he was italian defending italian soil when islam and muzzies will try to fuck us.


Essentially whoever who is not muslim, cause our history make us the most distant thing from that world.

[Foxy]

Sad to see that even our neighbors see things here as americans do. And italians had their share of involvement in events on the balkans. Not directly but ethnic intolerance didn't come from itself.

Can you explain yourself better, please? I think that the biggest fault is of the Ottoman domination, there is no more disgregant force than that. But I admit my ignorance about the Balcans...

[Heretik]

Ottoman influence was big but "divide et impera" politics in the Balkans by Italians in Dalmatia and by Hungarians and Austrians in central Croatia were the ones which fucked up the relations of Croats and Serbs. Somebody whispered in the ears of that minority of extreme nationalists and shit happened.

Yes, Italian ignorance about the Balkans is well known until it comes to irredentism.

[Falkata]

Ledesma is a castillian surname by the way. Ramiro Ledesma was an important fascist leader from Falange

http://hispaniainfo.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/ramiro-ledesma-765.jpg

How much italian ancestry Christian Ledesma has? He looks totally mestizo

http://www.juventusclubmalta.com/blog/blogImages/1008CRISTIAN%20LEDESMA.jpg

[Tyrrhenoi]

But I admit my ignorance about the Balcans...

LoL - It is forgiven - because nobody gives a shit about it - ;) The Slavic blames the Italians and the Austrians for fucking up their internal relations -

It's a common human reaction to blame others of mistakes who are made by themself -

[Heretik]

I see you know your geopolitics and history very well. You will go far! :thumbs up

[San Galgano]

Ledesma is a castillian surname by the way. Ramiro Ledesma was an important fascist leader from Falange

http://hispaniainfo.files.wordpress.com/2008/10/ramiro-ledesma-765.jpg
It's okay to me until the moment it is an european name and not muslim.


How much italian ancestry Christian Ledesma has? He looks totally mestizo

http://www.juventusclubmalta.com/blog/blogImages/1008CRISTIAN%20LEDESMA.jpg

Probably very few to none, but my point is that i prefer one like hime who will stand in front of an italian church defending it from muslims(in an hipotetic dramatic future), than whoever else with more european feautures named Abdullah.

[Tyrrhenoi]

I see you know your geopolitics and history very well. You will go far! :thumbs up

Nah - but I understand what you are saying -

The Italians tought the Germans well - ;) - 'lebensraum' is a german word - but an Italian idea - Italy always has been a very dangerous country - somehow things always start in Italy -

Like you said: divide et impera

[Heretik]

It's not that I'm blaming anybody. We were the ones who were mislead and that's it.

[Foxy]

LoL - It is forgiven - because nobody gives a shit about it - ;) The Slavic blames the Italians and the Austrians for fucking up their internal relations -

It's a common human reaction to blame others of mistakes who are made by themself -

It is not true that nobody gives a fuck about them. Sometimes school books of history prefers to fly some subjects. For istance in Japan it is not taught that Japan lost the war, in Italy, until the 50s, it was taught almost nothing of the Italian partisans, becouse it was a shame, for us, to have betryaled the Axis (anyway it is not true that nobody was loyal: in Northern Italy there was the Republic of Salò, in Azio and Nettuno there went Italian SSs to fight and won, but these are other subjects usually not cited in school books). Still today, school books don't speak very much about the Balcans. Of the II WW studied at school I remember that the explanation of the way Mussolini took the power lasts 50 pages and the II WW 5 pages. :D
I found no mention to the fact that Italy had 15.000 SSs, nothing is said about the concentration camp Risiera (or Stalag 339) sited in Trieste, etc. etc.

*In Risiera were killed between 3-5000 people, only a small part of them were Jews. The others were Croatians, Istrians, Triestins, Dalmatians, Slovenjans, Friulans, in particular slavic and Italian partisans. But the real purpose of the champ was to send people to the other lagers in Poland and Germany.

[Libertas]

Since multietnich countries, thanks to our western values, are becoming day after day a reality who seems like an inarrestable process(unfortunately), the only thing i can say IMO, the italians are:
1)The ones with a well known italian ancestry(i read the various preromans people you mentioned. Those are our ancestors by now, not an ancient melting pot, otherwise almost all Europe would be a preroman melting pot) .
2)The mixed italians like Ledesma, with a christian background and with many italian values, who will be not a problem when facing hordes of muslims in future.
3)Every foreign who will feel like he was italian defending italian soil when islam and muzzies will try to fuck us.


Essentially whoever who is not muslim, cause our history make us the most distant thing from that world.

Only de sanguinis Italians and assimilated whites from Europe and elsewhere are acceptable to me.

[Murphy]

Do you mean state? The 'nation' by definition is a collection of individuals with shared ethnic backgrounds/ancestries.

There are several definitions for the word "nation" today. Suffice it to say that I used it interchangeably with "state".


In that case, where is the line drawn? If you see no problem with it why is there anything wrong with the 'French' team?

I don't think a quota should exist exactly.. just bring on the best footballers they can find. In the case of France however they seem to, on purpose, completely avoid the presence of native Franks on the team.

[San Galgano]

Only de sanguinis Italians and assimilated whites from Europe and elsewhere are acceptable to me.

Of course, if that was possible. But i'm talking about a dramatic scenario due to the weakness of our European politicians, and i have choosen the ones i think that could affect less our safety and freedom.

[Wyn]

I don't think a quota should exist exactly.. just bring on the best footballers they can find. In the case of France however they seem to, on purpose, completely avoid the presence of native Franks on the team.

Perhaps the French Football Federation simply thinks those are the best men for the job?

Going back to this comment:


I see no problem with minority ethnic groups playing in a national team. It should not be like France though. It should be fair.

If the FFF believes that those minority players are the best footballers eligible for a place in the team, is that fair? Perhaps those 11 Africans, Asians etc. are the finest 11 the state has to offer. Much easier to avoid the debate altogether and have a French football team, no? If you want a multi-ethnic team, but don't want a minority dominated team and don't want quotas, where do you go from there? Who decides what is 'fair'?

[Debaser11]

The concept of a nation is tied to race. It's not just based on some geographical location where you stand and make money to buy a house, car, and whatever junk it is we're told to buy to be complete people. The fact that nations have always had some element of mixture within their population does not change what the ideal of such a concept rests upon. Going against such a principle concept for what defines a nation (from allowing everyone in the third world inside as if borders were something just drawn on maps to allowing invaders to represent your people in a soccer match) will eventually undo the entities themselves in any meaningful sense.

Even liberal-minded people (which is not a reference to anyone commenting on this thread) who watch the World Cup seem taken back by the amount of blacks on the French team. They're just too chicken shit to say what they really think.

[MagnaLaurentia]

If the FFF believes that those minority players are the best footballers eligible for a place in the team, is that fair? Perhaps those 11 Africans, Asians etc. are the finest 11 the state has to offer. Much easier to avoid the debate altogether and have a French football team, no? If you want a multi-ethnic team, but don't want a minority dominated team and don't want quotas, where do you go from there? Who decides what is 'fair'?

The real problem is that young French kids (not immigrants) can't improve their talent. The young immigrants from the suburbs + their parents (Blacks, Arabs...) intimidate the French on the field and in the stadium (death threat, violence, cars demolished in the parking...).

[MagnaLaurentia]

Of course, if that was possible. But i'm talking about a dramatic scenario due to the weakness of our European politicians, and i have choosen the ones i think that could affect less our safety and freedom.

I'm so agree with you my friend!

[Foxy]

So the real question is: is it less bad to be muslims or to be niggas? :rolleyes:
My opinion is that even if Italy became muslim, Italians would never become like Arabic Muzzies. Christianism itself is a semitic religion, then mediated by the Church that made it more semipagan than other, especially in its catholic form. I think that even when Italy became muslim, it will have an other Renaissance, an other mediation etc.etc. thank to our Roman syncretism and platonism. But if we become black, well, that is irreversible. Not only, the Italianess itself would disappear, not only racially but, even worse, culturally.
That's my opinion.
Anyway, white and not muslims in da best, so I turn into a strong conservationism.

[SaxonCeorl]

I miss all of the older players like Cannavaro, Del Piero, Inzaghi, Pirlo, Maldini, etc. That was a classic generation.


My opinion is that even if Italy became muslim, Italians would never become like Arabic Muzzies.

Don't worry, that's never going to happen.

You know, you had another post in which you expressed your distaste for the level of involvement of the Catholic Church in Italy. I agree with you, but perhaps a strong Christian presence such as that found in Italy will help stave off Islamic influence.

My personal opinion is that an Italian is any ethnic European who has Italian citizenship. I wouldn't want to see too much immigration to Italy, as that would reduce the number of Italian surnames which, in my opinion, are the most beautiful names in the world.

[AntonyCapolongo]

For me : an Italian is just nothing! An artificial nation, without culture. There is no ressemblance with a Germanic Venetian who speak is language, a Sicle from Sicily who speak Sicilian or a Latin from Rome.

[Foxy]

For me : an Italian is just nothing! An artificial nation, without culture. There is no ressemblance with a Germanic Venetian who speak is language, a Sicle from Sicily who speak Sicilian or a Latin from Rome.

The mother of trolls and idiots is always pregnant.:rolleyes:

Ps: Venetians are not germanic and both Sicilians and Venetes consider themselves Italians. Venetian is a romance language as well as Sicilian (and in Sicily it is spoken something like 4 languages of which one of gallic-Italian).

[AntonyCapolongo]

Venetian aren't germanics? Maybe they're Latins? haha!
And someone from Südtirol or a Occitan from the west of Piedmont, is he italian? No :)

[Vasconcelos]

Wow, Venezia is a germanic now? What did I miss?

[Foxy]

Venetian aren't germanics? Maybe they're Latins? haha!
And someone from Südtirol or a Occitan from the west of Piedmont, is he italian? No :)

In Veneto people have never spoken Austrian, while in Sudtirol they still speak German. In Sudtirol people have Meier and Muller for surnames, in Veneto Rossi and Verdone. In Veneto there is some germanic community, but we are speaking of 4-5 villages with some thousands of inhabitants. All the others are Italian, very Italian (Venetes are called "terroni of the North") :D (hoping that no Venetian is passing here).

[AntonyCapolongo]

I don't say Germanic in language, or nickname. Venetian have romance name and language, I know this, because I am part Venetian. But Venetian are germanics by race, like people from Aoste/Padania are gaulish or Sicilian are sicles.
I don't really thing that Italians irredentist lies about "Great Italia" are true! I don't know any Corsican or any Savoyard or Nissart who tell about is people are "Italians".

[Foxy]

I don't say Germanic in language, or nickname. Venetian have romance name and language, I know this, because I am part Venetian. But Venetian are germanics by race, like people from Aoste/Padania are gaulish or Sicilian are sicles.
I don't really thing that Italians irredentist lies about "Great Italia" are true! I don't know any Corsican or any Savoyard or Nissart who tell about is people are "Italians".

Indeed Corsica is not Italy and was not in the plans of whom who made the unity. Venetians germanics?? Ancient Venetians were a mix of Gauls, Illyrians, Etruscans and Venetes, an autoctonus people of northern Italy. The Venetes were the biggest part and they were an Italic tribe of the Osco-falisc family, like Latins and Romans.

[AntonyCapolongo]

Corse, never plans of Garibaldi or Mussolini ? I don't think so...
Venetian, Illyrians? Do you really think that Venetians looks like an Mehmet from Albania ? :D
Don't you remember the Wisigoths ?

[Foxy]

Corse, never plans of Garibaldi or Mussolini ? I don't think so...
Venetian, Illyrians? Do you really think that Venetians looks like an Mehmet from Albania ? :D
Don't you remember the Wisigoths ?

As I said, most Venetes descend from Ancient Venetes, a people very similar to Romans, belonging of their same stock. Venetes, through history, mixed a bit with Etruscans, Illirians, Romans etc. like it happens in every Italian region, but the substratus is Venetic, therefore, Italic.