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Peterski
07-02-2017, 06:48 PM
Apparently they can be even up to a dozen or so percent Polish:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11124-A-new-paper-on-Ashkenazi-Jews&p=253600&viewfull=1#post253600



What I'd like to see is a study comparing modern AJ to the ancient Bronze Age Canaanite genomes analyzed in Haber et al 2017. Then we can really look at how much of their ancestry traces back to post Neolithic west Asians and how much is European admixture.

Haber et al. modeled the Sidon_BA samples as Levant_N + Iran_Chl, this is what Ashkenazi Jews get if I use K7:

[1] "distance%=0.2834 / distance=0.002834"

Ashkenazi_Jew:average

Levant_Neolithic:I1704 38.50
Italian_Tuscan:average 25.70
Iran_Chalcolithic:average 19.70
Polish:average 13.35
Lithuanian:average 2.75

A very good fit, which is in line with Ashkenazim being 55% to 60% Levantine in origin on average (usually around 57%).


Very neat! A little more Polish/Lithuanian than I had anticipated.

If you've got Sephardi and other Jewish groups as well, I'm curious to see how they'd compare.


I suspect the Eastern European is inflated by a factor of ~2 here. Anyway, this is what Sephardim get:

[1] "distance%=0.175 / distance=0.00175"

Sephardic_Jew:average

Levant_Neolithic:I1704 36.70
Italian_Tuscan:average 24.30
Iran_Chalcolithic:average 20.10
Italian_Bergamo:average 10.85
Spanish:average 6.35
Avar:average 1.70

Avar should be added to Levant_N and Iran_Chl, in many cases it improves the fit (my father is a pretty good example of this actually). All in all they're extremely similar to Ashkenazim (they're basically a single population anyway, but you won't see Elhaik saying it).

This is what Mizrahi Jews get:

[1] "distance%=0.1952 / distance=0.001952"

Iraqi_Jew:average

Assyrian:average 43.15
Levant_Neolithic:I1704 28.70
Iran_Chalcolithic:average 26.70
Avar:average 1.45

[1] "distance%=0.1909 / distance=0.001909"

Iranian_Jew:average

Assyrian:average 41.4
Iran_Chalcolithic:average 31.6
Levant_Neolithic:I1704 24.9
Iranian_Zoroastrian:average 2.1

Mizrahi Jews are by and large of Mesopotamian origin, so it's extremely likely Iran_Chl comprises some of their Mesopotamian ancestry. Samaritans are likely to be the closest contemporary population to Sidon_BA, so they're probably a better proxy for actual Judean ancestry in their case:

[1] "distance%=0.1369 / distance=0.001369"

Iraqi_Jew:average

Assyrian:average 47.05
Samaritan 39.30
Iran_Chalcolithic:average 9.85
Avar:average 3.80


[1] "distance%=0.1115 / distance=0.001115"

Iranian_Jew:average

Assyrian:average 39.95
Samaritan 36.65
Iran_Chalcolithic:average 18.45
Avar:average 4.00
Iranian_Zoroastrian:average 0.95

^^These fits make much more sense, they're in line with what Mizrahim usually get, like I said they're basically a Mesopotamian population. As incredible as it might sound, Western Jews (Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Italian, Romaniote, North African, Syrian, Egyptian, etc) seem to have inherited larger chunks of Israelite/Judean ancestry (between 55% and 60% on average) than them. Based on the above, I also think it's safe to conclude that the Assyrians are going to be very similar to their ancient namesake.

Lucas
07-03-2017, 09:01 AM
I'm sure what most Poles have in common with them is their Eastern Euro ancestry:)

Peterski
07-08-2017, 09:37 PM
Here is a good 2016 study about Ashkenazi (AJ) ancestry:

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2016/07/10/063099.full.pdf

https://s15.postimg.org/e9937ih5n/Ashkenazim.png

Ziveth
07-08-2017, 09:39 PM
Also 23andme consider Ashkenazi jews as "Polish".
https://qph.ec.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-d67780343882b846db553a528f155e6d

Ziveth
07-08-2017, 09:40 PM
I'm sure what most Poles have in common with them is their Eastern Euro ancestry:)

Ashkenazi jews have of course caucasian influences for have lived many years in Europe, yes.

Peterski
07-08-2017, 09:47 PM
Also 23andme consider Ashkenazi jews as "Polish".

It is more about geography.

In the late 1700s / early 1800s most of Ashkenazi Jews lived in Poland. They started to emigrate to America from Poland in the 1800s. And most of 23andMe customers are Americans.

MysteriousWays
07-08-2017, 09:50 PM
23andme classifies groups as "European" or whatever other region in the world they were in based on where that population was somewhere between 250-500 years ago, so it's not necessarily a genetic placement.

Iloko
07-10-2017, 01:41 AM
I've seen where they plot. They don't really pull towards Eastern Europe though right?

Peterski
07-10-2017, 01:56 AM
I've seen where they plot. They don't really pull towards Eastern Europe though right?

It depends on whether you count Albania as Eastern Europe or not.

They are quite close to Albania, Greece, Sicily, Cyprus, Lebanon, etc.

Peterski
09-17-2017, 12:20 AM
Anthropological types among Polish Jews (not sure if this data is correct?):

https://s27.postimg.org/3sie35hf7/Jewish_Anthro_Types.png

https://s27.postimg.org/3sie35hf7/Jewish_Anthro_Types.png

Dragoon
09-17-2017, 12:40 AM
Israel

Not very, because most Poles Jews were killed during WW2.
In Israel, you have combination of Askhenazi (including Russian Jews) and Mizrahi/Sephardi Jews.

USA

Here the Jews, are mostly Askhenazi. Probably most are Germanic or Slavic going back 300 years. If any are Polish, they would likely come before WW2.

Peterski
09-17-2017, 12:55 AM
Israel

Not very, because most Poles Jews were killed during WW2.
In Israel, you have combination of Askhenazi (including Russian Jews) and Mizrahi/Sephardi Jews.

USA

Here the Jews, are mostly Askhenazi. Probably most are Germanic or Slavic going back 300 years. If any are Polish, they would likely come before WW2.

There was immigration of Polish Jews to Israel already before 1939. American Jews are mostly descended from pre-1772 Polish Jews (who became German, Austrian and Russian Jews after the Partitions of Poland). Russia did not really have any Jews in early 1700s:

https://s3.postimg.org/4i1a8rjv7/Russian_pop.png

https://s3.postimg.org/4i1a8rjv7/Russian_pop.png

https://s17.postimg.org/4bwiz8uj3/Kabuzan_1.png

https://s3.postimg.org/gqad6028j/Kabuzan_2.png

Dragoon
09-17-2017, 01:26 AM
There was immigration of Polish Jews to Israel already before 1939. American Jews are mostly descended from pre-1772 Polish Jews (who became German, Austrian and Russian Jews after the Partitions of Poland). Russia did not really have any Jews in early 1700s:

Good charts/graph.

I agree the Russians had much less Jews in 1700s. They got lots of Jews after expanding the Russian Empire and population shifts.

However, you must remember that Jews were always moving everywhere in Europe. The Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth was so called tolerant.
This means that Jews were escaping from other places to Poland. They do not originate from Poland, but rather spend some time there.

In conclusion: Polish Jews (and most Jews) were mixed of Europeans and Semites. We can argue about Polish or German, but most of them were mixed between Germanics and Slavics on the European side. Recent ancestry has more impact on your dna than older.

Peterski
12-16-2017, 05:36 PM
I'm sure what most Poles have in common with them is their Eastern Euro ancestry:)

Most Poles test with FTDNA but the ones who test with 23andMe often get some minor Ashkenazi, see here:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?227828-Post-your-Ancestry-Timeline-(23andMe)&p=4788721&viewfull=1#post4788721