I2a-Din in 900s AD Poland

[Peterski]

This is now the oldest known sample of I2a-Din in ancient DNA, right?:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6522-Early-Medieval-aDNA-from-Poland-coming-soon&p=255823&viewfull=1#post255823

Niemcza_13 (900-1000 AD), I2a1b2-L621+, mtDNA J1c3e1

Location of Niemcza (to the west of Krosno):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Niemcza

http://chrzest966.pl/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/mapa-Millenium-Plus-Hanna-Kocka-ryc1.bmp

[Dick]

You Poles are funny. there is no I2a Dinaric North or I2a Dinaric South anymore, just I2а-CTS10228 with branches below. The I2a in majority of South Slavs is obviously from the Slavic men in present day poland that had the balls to trek southward and fight the Avars, eventually to become the forefathers of Serbs and Croats.

[Wrong]

Bosnian_Ilirian_Piramids in Medieval Poland?

[Lek]

You Poles are funny. there is no I2a Dinaric North or I2a Dinaric South anymore, just I2а-CTS10228 with branches below. The I2a in majority of South Slavs is obviously from the Slavic men in present day poland that had the balls to trek southward and fight the Avars, eventually to become the forefathers of Serbs and Croats.

Ive read that Slavs were led by the Avars. They raided the Balkans together.

While some sources say what youre saying.

I rather think there were different Slavic groups that came in different waves.

The Sclaveni and Antes were one of the first.

Also high I2a1b in Balkans seems to be a founder effect as its barely found in the Sorbs of Poland who are pred r1a

[Jana]

Ive read that Slavs were led by the Avars. They raided the Balkans together.
While some sources say what youre saying.
I rather think there were different Slavic groups that came in different waves.
The Sclaveni and Antes were one of the first.
Also high I2a1b in Balkans seems to be a founder effect as its barely found in the Sorbs of Poland who are pred r1a

Yes, there were many groups of Slavs that migrated south. Biggest groups (Sclaveni) were in alliance with the Avars, while White Croats and White Serbs came later from north-central Europe.
From De Administrando Imperio:


“But the Croats at that time were dwelling beyond Bavaria, where the Belocroats are now. From them split off a family of five brothers, Kloukas and Lobelos and Kosentzis and Mouchlo and Chrobatos, and two sisters, Touga and Bouga, who came with their folk to Dalmatia and found the Avars in possession of that land. After they had fought one another for some years, the Croats prevailed and killed some of the Avars and the remainder they compelled to be subject to them. And so from that time this land was possessed by the Croats, and there are still in Croatia some who are of Avar descent and are recognized as Avars. The rest of the Croats stayed over against Francia, and are now called Belocroats, that is, White Croats, and have their own prince; they are subject to Otto, the great king of Francia, or Saxony, and are unbaptized, and intermarry and are friendly with the Turks (Hungarians) :P. From the Croats who came to Dalmatia a part split off and possessed themselves of Illyricum and Pannonia; they too had an independent prince, who used to maintain friendly contact, though through envoys only, with the prince of Croatia. For a number of years the Croats of Dalmatia also were subject to the Franks, as they had formerly been in their own country; but the Franks treated when with such brutality that they used to murder Croat infants at the breast and cast them to the dogs. The Croats, unable to endure such treatment from the Franks, revolted from them, and slew those of them whom they had for princes. On this, a large army from Francia marched against them, and after they had fought one another for seven years, at last the Croats managed to prevail and destroyed all the Franks with their leader who was called Kotzilis. From that time they remained independent and autonomous, and they requested they holy baptism from the bishop of Rome, and bishops were sent who baptized them in the time of Porinos their prince. ''


''The Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called ‘white’, who live beyond Turkey (Hungary), in a place called by them Bo’iki, where their neighbour is Francia, as is also Great Croatia, the unbaptized, also called ‘white’; in this place, then, these Serbs also originally dwelt. But when two brothers succeeded their father in the rule of Serbia, one of them, taking one half of the folk, claimed the protection of Heraclius, the emperor of the Romans, and the same emperor Heraclius received him and gave him a place in the province of Thessalonica to settle in, namely Serbia, which from that time has acquired this denomination.''

[Voskos]

You do realize that those are Ostrogoths and not proto-slavs?

http://balkanpazar.org/Rome%20and%20Romania,%20Roman%20Emperors,%20Byzant ine%20Emperors,%20etc_dosyalar/rome2a.gif

[Jana]

You do realize that those are Ostrogoths and not proto-slavs?

http://balkanpazar.org/Rome%20and%20Romania,%20Roman%20Emperors,%20Byzant ine%20Emperors,%20etc_dosyalar/rome2a.gif

Niemza is Slavic medieval Poland, not Ostrogoth. Ostrogoth samples were from Wildebark culture.

[Voskos]

Niemza is Slavic medieval Poland, not Ostrogoth. Ostrogoth samples were from Wildebark culture.

in my personal opinion the slavic newcomers assimilated local Germanics.


Members of the Germanic Silingi tribe who did not participate in the Migration Period but stayed in Silesia chose the place in the 4th century as their fortified center of a Germanic settlement area between "mons Silencii" (Ślęża) and the river "Selenca" (Ślęza).[1] Slavs arrived after the 6th century and called this place "Nemci" ( = mute, metaphorically "those who do not speak our language").

[Peterski]

in my personal opinion the slavic newcomers assimilated local Germanics.

Markowice_7 is I1, so this one is a descendant of assimilated Germanics.

And Niemcza_18 belongs to Y-DNA haplogroup J2a, this is very surprising.


http://balkanpazar.org/Rome%20and%20Romania,%20Roman%20Emperors,%20Byzant ine%20Emperors,%20etc_dosyalar/rome2a.gif

These samples from Niemcza are dated to 900-1000 AD, not to 330 AD.

Niemcza was an important stronghold at the western border of Poland.

It probably had people from all around the kingdom, who defended it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Niemcza

[cosmoo]

It is not really sure if this sample is I2a1b-Din, but it most probably is.
Oldest I2a1b-Din was actually found in Motala12 sample (L147.2+).
In Niemcza we also have one not-so-Slavic result (J2a).
I don't know if you saw it on anthrogenica, but newly tested American with origin from Alsace (with earlier origin in Lower Rhine area) is I2a1b-Din but ancestral to all downstream clades, and he effectivly pushes TMRCA of I2a1b-Din as much as a few thousand years, with its origin much more westwards than originally thought.
I2a1b-Din did not participate in Slavic ethnogenesis, therefore it is not "as Slavic as", for example, R1a-M458/Z280.

[Peterski]

By the way some changes are going to happen when it comes to I2a-Din.

Here is what lgmayka (who is Polish and belongs to I2a-Din) wrote lately:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10749-Corded-Ware-origin-for-P312/page36&p=253265#post253265


I can reasonably state that I know no more about my patrilineage than I did 11 years ago, when Ken Nordtvedt classified me as I2a-Dinaric.

The next YFull haplotree will continue to classify me as a singleton of the I2a-Dinaric clade, which will presumably be renamed I-YP189 or some such. New entry YF09727 [from France] splits the old I-CTS10228 level: He tested negative for at least 6 of the SNPs currently listed as tree-equivalent to CTS10228. Thus, his patrilineage is a much earlier offshoot and not part of the I2a-Dinaric expansion.

Cosmoo:


I2a1b-Din did not participate in Slavic ethnogenesis, therefore it is not "as Slavic as", for example, R1a-M458/Z280.

How can you possibly know this?

[catgeorge]

I still don't understand why posters freak out over J so much. I + J is like saying R1a and R1b is it not?

[Peterski]

"I don't know if you saw it on anthrogenica, but newly tested American with origin from Alsace (with earlier origin in Lower Rhine area) is I2a1b-Din but ancestral to all downstream clades, and he effectivly pushes TMRCA of I2a1b-Din as much as a few thousand years, with its origin much more westwards than originally thought."

Yes, nobody expected that I2a-Din originated in North America.* ;)

One of very basal R1b subclades (I don't remember which) has been found only in Puerto Rico.

Probably all of this branch of R1b originates from Puerto Rico... ;)

*Except for Grab the Gauge, he predicted that Silvids are ancestors of Dinarids.


newly tested American with origin from Alsace (with earlier origin in Lower Rhine area)

Origin from America, with origin from Alsace, with origin from Lower Rhine area, with ultimate origin from... ???

Only ancient DNA actually matters, and this guy is a good example why it is the case.

[cosmoo]

How can you possibly know this?
It is distributed in Slavic-speaking lands in an extremely inequal fashion, plus, Dinaric being a subclade of Disles, which is mostly found in NW Europe, plus Nordtvedt locating Dinaric TMRCA 2500 years ago in (then non-Slavic) Poland, also points away from it. Also, some other ancient DNA which you conveniently omitted.



Yes, nobody expected that I2a-Din originated in North America.* ;)
You know very well what I meant.

Only ancient DNA actually matters, and this guy is a good example why it is the case.
Oh really? But when they discovered that Pole who was ancestral to most of Dinaric clades, then it was important? Then it was "WEWUZSLAVS" all over the place. Constant cherrypick.
And this guy effectively pushes back age of formation of Dinaric, no matter where he's from. And it is very, very unlikely that he has any male-line Slavic origin.

[Peterski]

Ancestors of this American lived in Lower Rhine area in 1700 AD (for example, I didn't check it, I'm just guessing).

But you have no idea, where did they live in 700 AD, or in 700 BC. This is why only ancient DNA is what matters.

[Tschaikisten]

how come the age of I2a2 Din subclade exactly coincides with the age of Bosnian Pyramids?

[Grishnack]

This pretty much settles it. I think we gotta reconsider the Romanian ethnogenesis.

[Peterski]

Oh really? But when they discovered that Pole who was ancestral to most of Dinaric clades, then it was important? Then it was "WEWUZSLAVS" all over the place.

Okay, but it was considered to be just a hint, not a definite proof.

Anyway, I2a-Din is much more common in Poland than in France.


And it is very, very unlikely that he has any male-line Slavic origin.

Who knows? There were Slavic slaves all over Western Eurasia and North Africa.

The Frankish Empire was very busy with attacking and enslaving Pagan Slavs.

[cosmoo]

Ancestors of this American lived in Lower Rhine area in 1700 AD (for example, I didn't check it, I'm just guessing).

But you have no idea, where did they live in 700 AD, or in 700 BC. This is why only ancient DNA is what matters.

Yeah, only because of lack of further evidence it's completely logical to assume they lived exactly in your fucking Pripyat marches.

Besides, even without this guy, you know very well why theory of I2a1b-Din participating in Slavic ethnogenesis doesn't work.

[cosmoo]

Anyway, I2a-Din is much more common in Poland than in France.
And R1b is much more common in France than in Ukraine. Yet situation was completely shifted few thousands of years earlier. Don't use reasoning of a 5 year old.

[Peterski]

it's completely logical to assume they lived exactly in your fucking Pripyat marches.

Pripyat marshes is not even the place where Proto-Slavs originated from. That area was pretty much uninhabited during the Bronze and Iron Ages. That area could not support hundreds of thousands of people (and this is how numerous Early Slavs had to be at the beginning of their expansion). If anything Proto-Slavs could perhaps live all around the Pripyat marshes, but not in the marshes themselves.

Eastern Poland is definitely not excluded from possible places of Slavic ethnogenesis.

[cosmoo]

Pripyat marshes is not even the place where Proto-Slavs originated from. That area was pretty much uninhabited during the Bronze and Iron Ages. That area could not support hundreds of thousands of people (and this is how numerous Early Slavs had to be at the beginning of their expansion). If anything Proto-Slavs could perhaps live all around the Pripyat marshes, but not in the marshes themselves.

Eastern Poland is definitely not excluded from possible places of Slavic ethnogenesis.

It was a figure of speech, as in "ok, just if we don't know his further ancestry, why assume it's Slavic out of blue"?
Damn, are you always so literal?

[Peterski]

I suspected that it was a figure of speech but just wanted to clarify that for everyone, because some people still think that the Pripyat marshes is the actual place where Slavs came from.

The Pripyat marshes were uninhabited (according to archaeologists).


Besides, even without this guy, you know very well why theory of I2a1b-Din participating in Slavic ethnogenesis doesn't work.

Why? Because it is originally Non-Indo-European?

But in such case you would also need to say that I1 did not participate in Germanic ethnogenesis.

[Peterski]

In Niemcza we also have one not-so-Slavic result (J2a).

Yes, but this sample has Eastern affinities.

It is probably a typically Ossetian subclade of J2a. Sarmatian?

[cosmoo]

Why? Because it is originally Non-Indo-European?

But in such case you would also need to say that I1 did not participate in Germanic ethnogenesis.
No, but because of reasons I mentioned hundreds of times in the past.
-I2a1b-Dinaric is subclade of Disles. Overwhelming majority of Disles is situated in non-Slavic lands.
-It is distributed extremelly inequally in Slavic-speaking lands. From virtually non-existent in some places in northern ones, to almost 70% in parts of Herzegovina. If it participated in ethnogenesis and blended into Slavs, it would only make sense for it to be at least somewhat more equally distributed. But it appears that most of (not all!) I2a1b-Din carriers arrived on Balkans separately from carriers of other Slavic haplogroups.
-It is distributed inequally even in Yugoslavia. I2a1b-Din is much more common in mountainous parts of Dinaric Alps, while R1a is most common in northern, more fertile parts. Doesn't sound as if they arrived in same migration, does it?
-Nordtvedt estimates TMRCA of I2a1b-Din at 500 B.C. somewhere around (then non-Slavic) course of Vistula (with this new result, its age will increase).
-Oldest I2a1b-Din is found in Motala12 sample.

[Peterski]

-Nordtvedt estimates TMRCA of I2a1b-Din at 500 B.C. somewhere around (then non-Slavic) course of Vistula (with this new result, its age will increase).

In 500 BC areas to the east of Vistula were "Slavic", or at least Balto-Slavic.

Germanic expansion to the east of the Vistula was several centuries later.


-It is distributed extremelly inequally in Slavic-speaking lands. From virtually non-existent in some places in northern ones, to almost 70% in parts of Herzegovina. If it participated in ethnogenesis and blended into Slavs, it would only make sense for it to be at least somewhat more equally distributed.

Ever heard about things such as genetic drift, bottleneck, founder effect?

If among ancestors of migrating Slavs there were 70 K with R1a and 30 K with I2a, and later 50 K of them went southward and became south Slavs, while 50 K went westward and became West Slavs, there is no certainty that the number of men with I2a was equal (15 K) in both groups. Due to factors such as random chance, I2a could be much more numerous in the group ancestral to South Slavs.

Proto-West Slavs could be for example 5 K of I2a and 45 K of R1a.

Proto-South Slavs could be for example 25 K of I2a and 25 K of R1a.

East Slavs - Ukrainians and Belarusians - have a lot of I2a. The only exception are Northern Belarusians who are not-so-Slavic (they are largely descended from Slavicized Balts).

[cosmoo]

In 500 BC areas to the east of Vistula were "Slavic", or at least Balto-Slavic.

Germanic expansion to the east of the Vistula was several centuries later.
Proto-Slavs expanded from their homeland to Poland after depopulation caused by East Germanic tribes migrating southeast.


IEver heard about things such as genetic drift, bottleneck, founder effect?

If among ancestors of migrating Slavs there were 70 K with R1a and 30 K with I2a, and later 50 K of them went southward and became south Slavs, while 50 K went westward and became West Slavs, there is no certainty that the number of men with I2a was equal (15 K) in both groups. Due to factors such as random chance, I2a could be much more numerous in the group ancestral to South Slavs.

Proto-West Slavs could be for example 5 K of I2a and 45 K of R1a.

Proto-South Slavs could be for example 25 K of I2a and 25 K of R1a.

Ever heard of probability? No? Then go and learn. Calculate me probability of I2a1b-Din being assimilated into Slavs, then suddenly becoming numerous in only some branches as they spread from homeland. Or better yet, calculate me probability of I2a1b-Din settling mountains on western Balkans, and R1a settling plains, if they were all part of the same migration as you suggest? Yeah... it is extremely low. I'm not interested in pseudo-scientific blabbering and grasping for the straws which relies on extremely small probability that something happened.

[Jana]

-It is distributed extremelly inequally in Slavic-speaking lands. From virtually non-existent in some places in northern ones, to almost 70% in parts of Herzegovina. If it participated in ethnogenesis and blended into Slavs, it would only make sense for it to be at least somewhat more equally distributed. But it appears that most of (not all!) I2a1b-Din carriers arrived on Balkans separately from carriers of other Slavic haplogroups.
-It is distributed inequally even in Yugoslavia. I2a1b-Din is much more common in mountainous parts of Dinaric Alps, while R1a is most common in northern, more fertile parts. Doesn't sound as if they arrived in same migration, does it?

Wrong. It is around 20% in Polesia, and Polesia has more inhabitants than dinaric alps togheder. By the way, why do you call Herzegovian hills ''mountanious areas'' ? We are spekaing about few hundered meters tall hills.
And R1a isn't distributed in plains of ex-Yugoslavia, it is most common in Slovenia, which is far more mountanious than all Herzegovina togheder.

You speak Slavic language, you have lot of north-east European admixture and no much north-western. It is obvioulsly a Slavic marker. And Croats and Serbs settled exactly in the dinaric alps, not in Panonnian plains (where they have spread afterwards). Gothic theory is your wishful thinking.

[Peterski]

June 8, 2017 Draft tree for I-L621:

http://i2aproject.blogspot.co.uk/2017/06/may-2017-draft-tree-for-i-l621.html


--I-CTS10228*: There are four known branches of the I-CTS10228 Dinaric branch, and for many years there was only one known man who was CTS10228+ but who didn't belong to any of the branches, this man has paternal ancestry from southeastern Poland. Now there is a second CTS10228+ A2512- Y4460- Z17855- S17250-, this man has paternal ancestry from Alsace (southwestern Germany/France border area, now part of France). The Polish-ancestry and Alsatian-ancestry man don't share any unique novel variants/SNPs. There are many SNPs listed as equivalent to CTS10228, and it's possible that the Alsatian-ancestry man is ancestral (negative) for some of these, he has submitted his BAM file to YFull and we will learn the answer soon. Like all other I-CTS10228 men, the Alsatian-ancestry man has the distinctive marker value DYS565=9.

Apparently we are talking about this guy's uncle:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?10676-I2a-in-Britain-which-boat-did-your-ancestor-get-on&p=251138&viewfull=1#post251138


I thought I would mention my uncle who I am the admin for tested positive for L621 and negative for I-CTS4002. My terminal SNP according to FTDNA is CTS10936. I apparently am the only sample so far like this so CTS10936 can no longer be considered the same as CTS4002 but rather came before it. My oldest paper trail comes from southwest Germany in Baden. I have submitted my sample to YFull but it won't be done until late October they say.
Thanks

[cosmoo]

Wrong. It is around 20% in Polesia, and Polesia has more inhabitants than dinaric alps togheder.
Absolute numbers don't mean shit. By your logic Germany is more of an I2a1b-Din land than Herzegovina.
No wonder you picked Polesia, most cherrypicked area out of all. I'm not denying northern Slavs do have I2a1b-Din. But it didn't participate in their ethnogenesis, it was gradually assimilated starting from the end of 5th century.

By the way, why do you call Herzegovian hills ''mountanious areas'' ? We are spekaing about few hundered meters tall hills.
And R1a isn't distributed in plains of ex-Yugoslavia, it is most common in Slovenia, which is far more mountanious than all Herzegovina togheder.
I am not talking about mere elevation. I am talking about harshness of terrain and suitability for agriculture. Slovenian mountains are consisted of woods, fields and pastures. Herzegovinian mountains are mostly extremely rocky. And I'm not only talking about your western Herzegovina, but also about eastern part. Why would invading Slavs, people heavily relying on agriculture, choose to settle in Herzegovinian rocks? They did indeed settle in Dinaric Alps, but only in "župas", fertile river plains. Mountains were inhabited by population that was considered non-Slavic, and was primarily pastoral.

You speak Slavic language, you have lot of north-east European admixture and no much north-western.
I'm not interested in "muh kalkulators" crap. Your precious calculators like GEDmatch and MDLP say we are closer to Romanians, Gagauz, and southern Germans, than we are to Bosnians (many of which, especially Serbs, hail from Montenegro). Not even going to mention other BS regarding them.
Anthropologically, we are nothing like Slavs.


You speak Slavic language
Frenchmen speak a Latin-derived language, yet they don't descend from Romans.

[Peterski]

Proto-Slavs expanded from their homeland to Poland after depopulation

East Germanic populations came to Poland after 200-100 BC. They were not yet in Poland in 500 BC. Bronze Age Trzciniec culture, considered as Proto-Balto-Slavic, covered all of Eastern Poland.

So if some I2a-Din was in Poland in 500 BC, it could not be Germanic.


caused by East Germanic tribes migrating southeast.

France, Iberia, Italy and North Africa are to the southwest, not southeast, of Poland.

[Peterski]

Frenchmen speak a Latin-derived language, yet they don't descend from Romans.

They have significant Italian admixture, as there were Roman colonies in France.

And a lot of veterans of Roman legionaries settled in Gaul, often with families.

There is a lot of Roman admixture in France, Iberia and even Southern Britain.

[cosmoo]

They have significant Italian admixture, as there were Roman colonies in France.

And a lot of veterans of Roman legionaries settled in Gaul, often with families.

There is a lot of Roman admixture in France, Iberia and even Southern Britain.

They have common ancestry with many of Italians, they don't have so much of actual "Italian admixture". But explaining this to kalkulatortards is an excercise in futility...
Predominant part of their ancestry stems from Gauls, with a bit of Germanic and Roman influences. It is pretty clear that there are many populations out there than do not speak language of majority of their ancestors.

[Jana]

Absolute numbers don't mean shit. By your logic Germany is more of an I2a1b-Din land than Herzegovina.
And 1/3 of Germany has Slavic admixture. Germans are far from pure Germanics. Slavic toponyms in Germany go as far as Berlin.

No wonder you picked Polesia, most cherrypicked area out of all. I'm not denying northern Slavs do have I2a1b-Din. But it didn't participate in their ethnogenesis, it was gradually assimilated starting from the end of 5th century.
We do not know that.

I am not talking about mere elevation. I am talking about harshness of terrain and suitability for agriculture. Slovenian mountains are consisted of woods, fields and pastures. Herzegovinian mountains are mostly extremely rocky. And I'm not only talking about your western Herzegovina, but also about eastern part. Why would invading Slavs, people heavily relying on agriculture, choose to settle in Herzegovinian rocks? They did indeed settle in Dinaric Alps, but only in "župas", fertile river plains. Mountains were inhabited by population that was considered non-Slavic, and was primarily pastoral.
Well, Montenegro which has serious mountains has lot of E-V13, too. Western Herzegovina where I2-dinaric peaks is connected to Neretva river valley, most fertile area in southern Europe! Looks like good place to settle I presume.

I'm not interested in "muh kalkulators" crap. Your precious calculators like GEDmatch and MDLP say we are closer to Romanians, Gagauz, and southern Germans, than we are to Bosnians (many of which, especially Serbs, hail from Montenegro). Not even going to mention other BS regarding them.
There is no need to trust calculators when we have scientific autosmal researches (like origin of Balto-Slavic speaking population from 2016), and there Montengerins are exactly where they should be considering history and geography.

Anthropologically, we are nothing like Slavs.
Depends which Slavs you mean. It is not like they look the same.

Frenchmen speak a Latin-derived language, yet they don't descend from Romans.
How can you compare modern nation of France, composed of numerous tribes and peoples of different origin, some forcefully assimilated only by 19th century ?

Croats and Serbs have their tribal names since early middle ages and established their tribal states much before any of French or Germans existed.

[cosmoo]

And 1/3 of Germany has Slavic admixture. Germans are far from pure Germanics. Slavic toponyms in Germany go as far as Berlin.
It was not my point to say that I2a1b-Din there is non-Slavic, but rather to point out how stupid it is to say that one country/area is more typically I2a1b-Din than the other just because of absolute numbers. So Germany, for example, is not more typically I2a1b than any country of western Balkans, despite having more of it in absolute numbers.

Well, Montenegro which has serious mountains has lot of E-V13, too. Western Herzegovina where I2-dinaric peaks is connected to Neretva river valley, most fertile area in southern Europe! Looks like good place to settle I presume.
Yes, and E-V13 in eastern parts of country descends from pastoralist clans, just like I2a1b-Din (btw, not connected to this discussion, number of our E-V13 on Eupedia is vastly exaggerated, as research was conducted solely in capital, which is area of Kuči E-V13 clan, plus it included "Bosniaks" and Albanians in research. I prefer statistics from Serbian DNA project).
River valleys are exceptions. If you look realistically at it, both Herzegovina and Montenegro in general are a totally shit place to settle if you are mainly agriculturalist. "Most fertile area in southern Europe"... OK, whatever makes you sleep well, I guess.

Depends which Slavs you mean. It is not like they look the same.
Choose whichever northern Slavic population you want, the fact remains that we are still very distant to them anthropologically.

How can you compare modern nation of France, composed of numerous tribes and peoples of different origin, some forcefully assimilated only by 19th century ?

Croats and Serbs have their tribal names since early middle ages and established their tribal states much before any of French or Germans existed.
It is the fact that Frenchmen which descend from Romans are a very small minority...

Serbs and Croats are so homogenous? Lmao. Your Croat from Herzegovina and Croat from Zagorje don't have much in common. Same goes from Serb from Herzegovina and Serb from east or south of Serbia Proper. Both are quite heterogenous nations. Original Croats and Serbs coming from western Slavic lands assimilated under their name the population that was here before them: earlier settlers from eastern Slavic lands, Illyrians, Goths, etc.

[Jana]

Choose whichever northern Slavic population you want, the fact remains that we are still very distant to them anthropologically.
OK, since I live in Budapest, I seen lot of Slovaks. They aren't terribly different from us, neither they look like East Baltics in majority.


Serbs and Croats are so homogenous? Lmao. Your Croat from Herzegovina and Croat from Zagorje don't have much in common. Same goes from Serb from Herzegovina and Serb from east or south of Serbia Proper. Both are quite heterogenous nations. Original Croats and Serbs coming from western Slavic lands assimilated under their name the population that was here before them: earlier settlers from eastern Slavic lands, Illyrians, Goths, etc.
Genetics don't agree with you. Croats are very homogenous people. I have Northern and Southern Croats GEDmatch kits, and they are similar (I am talking about average).
Only Croats that are dfferent are those with West Slavic or German admixture in the north (which is quite common) or those with Italian admixture on the cost. The unmixed ones are suprisingly similar genetically.
Serbs have more differenation than us because they are double bigger population- and separation is on western and eastern autosomally, rather than northern and southern.

Btw, we still have around 1/3 of native YDNA lineages and quite a lot of autosomal admixture from people who lived in region before Slavs. Including Goths, but it is small. As far as I know I1 isn't even rare in Montenegro but around 10%.

[Rethel]

Only ancient DNA actually matters, and this guy is a good example why it is the case.

Plus: a one swallow does not make the spring... he would have to be
confirmed plus Cosmoo didn;t present the year of origin. It all matters.
One test and claim mean nothing, becasue it can be known, if is right.

[Rethel]

Oh really? But when they discovered that Pole who was ancestral to most of Dinaric clades, then it was important? Then it was "WEWUZSLAVS" all over the place. Constant cherrypick.

No is not. Nothing to be exited about.


But in such case you would also need to say that I1 did not participate in Germanic ethnogenesis.

Of course not, becasue Germans are IEs, and IEs are R1.
Do you want to say, that Amerindians participated in WASP ethnogenesis? :laugh:
In Addition I1 is 3180 years old - id I1 participated, the same did rest of
the alphabet, becasue you can find there also E, J, N, Q aso. Just cause
today it is numerous, doesn;t change the thing. If I1 would be 1% in the
Scandia, then you would not add this as froming Germanic peoples?

[Rethel]

It is obvioulsly a Slavic marker.

Today is present among Slavs, yes.
But you must also consider two things:
1. I-din is quite young
2, Slavs did absorbed everything on their way.

We do not knwn yet original Slavic Heimat, and it is
not knwon, if they had I2 at all in their place of origin.

All of it is guessing.

A lot of non R1 in Poland (as R1 as well) is of pre-Slavic origin - just Vandals,
Rugians, Goths, Celts and Balts who did stay. How much? We do not know.

The same with Oldeuropeans, who lived here and around before.
Some OE caldes coul migrated in last millenians to Poland as well,
independently, not necessary being part of some migrating ethnicity,
especially if some hg is young and widespread.

[Rethel]

Anthropologically, we are nothing like Slavs.

So why did you put a slavic-looking picture in your profile? :)

[Rethel]

Including Goths, but it is small. As far as I know I1 isn't even rare in Montenegro but around 10%.

Do you suggest, that I1 in the Balkans is from Goths?

[Jana]

Do you suggest, that I1 in the Balkans is from Goths?
Yes! I1 was found in Wielbark samples but no I2-dinaric.

[Rethel]

Yes! I1 was found in Wielbark samples but no I2-dinaric.

Does not necessarly mean, that on the Balkans comes 100% from Goths.
The oldest I1 comes from Pannonia, and I1 is present everywhere - far
from germanic settle area like Komi, Ural, Kaukasus, Serbia aso... Partially
it can be descendent from Goths, but not all, especially, that Goths were
almost exterminate totally by Romans after osthrogothic wars.

[Dick]

And 1/3 of Germany has Slavic admixture. Germans are far from pure Germanics. Slavic toponyms in Germany go as far as Berlin.

We do not know that.

Well, Montenegro which has serious mountains has lot of E-V13, too. Western Herzegovina where I2-dinaric peaks is connected to Neretva river valley, most fertile area in southern Europe! Looks like good place to settle I presume.

There is no need to trust calculators when we have scientific autosmal researches (like origin of Balto-Slavic speaking population from 2016), and there Montengerins are exactly where they should be considering history and geography.

Depends which Slavs you mean. It is not like they look the same.

How can you compare modern nation of France, composed of numerous tribes and peoples of different origin, some forcefully assimilated only by 19th century ?

Croats and Serbs have their tribal names since early middle ages and established their tribal states much before any of French or Germans existed.I wouldn't mind settling into your fertile area, baby.

[Drawing-slim]

So when did I2 din first came to balkans? 1200 years ago?

[Tschaikisten]

Yes! I1 was found in Wielbark samples but no I2-dinaric.

There are different branches of I1 in the Balkans. For example I1-P109, which is probably from Normans.

[Jana]

I wouldn't mind settling into your fertile area, baby.
:speechless-smiley-0

[Dick]

Does not necessarly mean, that on the Balkans comes 100% from Goths.
The oldest I1 comes from Pannonia, and I1 is present everywhere - far
from germanic settle area like Komi, Ural, Kaukasus, Serbia aso... Partially
it can be descendent from Goths, but not all, especially, that Goths were
almost exterminate totally by Romans after osthrogothic wars.

R1etard. The I1 from Hungary is pre-I1. I've already went through that with you. The most popular subclade( key word: SUBCLADE) of I1 is Norman in the Balkans so don't talk about things you have no clue about. Learn about your own shitty ydna instead.

[Rethel]

So when did I2 din first came to balkans? 1200 years ago?

Nope. They could be there even before Slavs - at least it is not known at now.


For example I1-P109, which is probably from Normans.

Come on!


R1etard. The I1 from Hungary is pre-I1. I've already went through that with you. The most popular subclade( key word: SUBCLADE) of I1 is Norman in the Balkans so don't talk about things you have no clue about. Learn about your own shitty ydna instead.

Try to use more epithets, maybe it will help...

[Peterski]

Niemcza_18, 900-1000 AD, Y-DNA: J2a1a-L26+ (exact subclade under L26 uncertain).

This SNP - L26 - links Early Medieval Pole Niemcza_18 with Bronze Age Hungarian BR2:

https://www.yfull.com/tree/J-Y17946*/

http://i.imgur.com/T5OZYzB.png

Both Niemcza_18 and BR2 were J2a1, M410+ and L26+.

================

And autosomal similarity of BR2 to modern populations:

http://s10.postimg.org/dyq6cc0nt/BR2.png

[The Destroyer]

OK, since I live in Budapest, I seen lot of Slovaks. They aren't terribly different from us, neither they look like East Baltics in majority.


Genetics don't agree with you. Croats are very homogenous people. I have Northern and Southern Croats GEDmatch kits, and they are similar (I am talking about average).
Only Croats that are dfferent are those with West Slavic or German admixture in the north (which is quite common) or those with Italian admixture on the cost. The unmixed ones are suprisingly similar genetically.
Serbs have more differenation than us because they are double bigger population- and separation is on western and eastern autosomally, rather than northern and southern.

Btw, we still have around 1/3 of native YDNA lineages and quite a lot of autosomal admixture from people who lived in region before Slavs. Including Goths, but it is small. As far as I know I1 isn't even rare in Montenegro but around 10%.

Following this conversation, cosmo is pretty much right. Genetics may say one thing, but history and common logic seem to contradict it, from the uneven South-North (mountain-plains) spread of halogroups, to the heterogenous nature of people from the same nation and different region.

[The Destroyer]

how come the age of I2a2 Din subclade exactly coincides with the age of Bosnian Pyramids?

Ask scientist Ken Northwed about that, I quoted him there.

[Jana]

Following this conversation, cosmo is pretty much right. Genetics may say one thing, but history and common logic seem to contradict it, from the uneven South-North (mountain-plains) spread of halogroups, to the heterogenous nature of people from the same nation and different region.

Cosmoo supports Gothic theory not autochtonous like you do (which you do due political reasons), Btw, I2-dinaric is most dominant YDNA in Slavonia, R1a is dominant only in hilly north-western Croatia (Zagorje) and alpine Slovenia.
Sorry to tell you we aren't heterogenous at all, as much as you'd like it.

Your Illyrian theory can be pretty much trown out of the window.

[The Destroyer]

Cosmoo supports Gothic theory not autochtonous like you do (which you do due political reasons), Btw, I2-dinaric is most dominant YDNA in Slavonia, R1a is dominant only in hilly north-western Croatia (Zagorje) and alpine Slovenia.
Sorry to tell you we aren't heterogenous at all, as much as you'd like it.

Your Illyrian theory can be pretty much trown out of the window.

Nope, it's still the most logical theory, and no, I don't support it for political, but scientific reasons.

You are heterogenous, so-called "croatian" nation is made up of various different ethnicities which were assimilated into "croatdom" via Catholic religion. As cosmo has said, Catholic from West Herzegovina has more genetic similarity to his "sworn enemy" from Mostar or Trebinje than to Catholic from Zagreb.

Or to quote one of your own:

Jedan od tvoraca hrvatske nacije Talijan Ivan Kukuljević Sakcinski (de Sasi) 2. maja 1843. održao je govor u saboru. Govor počinje Rijećima: "MI SMO MALO LATINI, MALO NEMCI, MALO TALIANI MALO MAGJARI i MALO SLAVJANI A UKUPNO ISKRENO GOVOREĆI NISMO BAŠ NIŠTA!"

[Dick]

Ive read that Slavs were led by the Avars. They raided the Balkans together.

While some sources say what youre saying.


There really isnt any ydna connected to Avars down there except for example on the island of Hvar including mt-dna(even the name suggests an Avar connection even though the word for Avar is Obar/Obri plural in Slavic) maybe the Avars fled to Adriatic islands or were only a small elite or most were either killed or fled elsewhere.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12825075



Also high I2a1b in Balkans seems to be a founder effect as its barely found in the Sorbs of Poland who are pred r1a

There's plenty of south Slavs with the R1-M458 common in Poland and the Sorbs in eastern Germany.

[Rethel]

Your Illyrian theory can be pretty much trown out of the window.

But Illirians were also R1 per definitionem :p


There really isnt any ydna connected to Avars down there except for example on the island of Hvar including mt-dna(even the name suggests an Avar connection even though the word for Avar is Obar/Obri plural in Slavic) maybe the Avars fled to Adriatic islands or were only a small elite or most were either killed or fled elsewhere.

In Croatia is 1% of Q and 0,5% of N - maybe
this is from Avaras, at least partially I guess.
Some R1 also can be from them.

Avars were in majority decimated so, nothing strange that they
did not left so much genetic traces, but some surely exists.

[Dick]

But Illirians were also R1 per definitionem :p



In Croatia is 1% of Q and 0,5% of N - maybe
this is from Avaras, at least partially I guess.
Some R1 also can be from them.

Avars were in majority decimated so, nothing strange that they
did not left so much genetic traces, but some surely exists.

The link I posted has the P-xM173 ydna cluster at 14% on the island which may indicate a connection with the Avars. Definitely a bizarre ydna, never even heard of it.

[The Destroyer]

The link I posted has the P-xM173 ydna cluster at 14% on the island which may indicate a connection with the Avars. Definitely a bizarre ydna, never even heard of it.

If that P ydna is Avar, then it should be present more in Hungary, which it seems not to be.

[Rethel]

The link I posted has the P-xM173 ydna cluster at 14% on the island which may indicate a connection with the Avars. Definitely a bizarre ydna, never even heard of it.

It is just P, Q or R2.
P also exists as an independent hg.
At least is classyfy in such way, not
my fault that they prescribed her as
ancestral to R and Q.

[Dick]

If that P ydna is Avar, then it should be present more in Hungary, which it seems not to be.

P-xM173 is present in Szekler Hungarians.


The presence of central-Asian haplogroup P*(xM173) in Szeklers is unusual for a European population, since it is almost absent in continental Europe

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/hungarians.html

[Rethel]

If that P ydna is Avar, then it should be present more in Hungary, which it seems not to be.

There is a few Qs. But Avars before they came to
Pannonia, probably did absorb everything under way
from Mongolia - so also some R and few smaller clades.

[Lucas]

Actually it was another Niemcza, not western one:)

https://oup.silverchair-cdn.com/oup/backfile/Content_public/Journal/gigascience/PAP/10.1093_gigascience_gix044/2/gix044.pdf?Expires=1499371833&Signature=TSwtQM8dFG9wNIYWUVX-HFd1QEBAXuRK6wDC1rcL8snD-0CMVA1s~hOms7uyZZEN5JrmN03zIckxAth3EvQaSdjLmhYnhvm lVt3qnHoL9-Hx0m57wBRCwojidi5iJDfZQJM00O~LjsGY~1PoXzq2TQOst~mJ GqRNbMDPI25fY6l9EN1oGcXHDS~2NETsDP5mH~eqAdJU1SDBsB xx42ieBK3gVrc7ro3JUGMl6vPfbZ7l2mQSry2sOrdHm4CWswyA mI-Oj-xd8rbhftwM0APVbWTYOOzYnZX14aGGwIVtkVUgOJT06gecaEAi IgC6kxUmicd51pVr7pZzXpy87LsDzw__&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIUCZBIA4LVPAVW3Q

https://s4.postimg.org/3n9kl6d5p/mapa.jpg

[Rethel]

Actually it was another Niemcza, not western one:)

I was convinst that it was silesian one, since Litvin
was taking about siege, so, for me nothing changed :)

[Lek]

Slavs were led into Balkans by the Avars like a couple ofbitches and they went raiding with them. South slavs got mongolid genes from avars/huns even

[Tschaikisten]

we wuz illyrians muh i2a din since ice age fuck slavz and germanz

[Rethel]

we wuz illyrians muh i2a din since ice age fuck slavz and germanz

This is an oxymoron, casue Illirians were R1.
How many times it has to be repeated?

If you don't like Slavs and Germans, the same you
have to feel to Illirians, cause they are branches
of the same folk. R1 folk. Deal with that.

[Lek]

Bosniaks have the least avar genes btw. Its higher in croats and serbs.

Proto bosniaks were one of the first slavs to come into the balkans actually.. from sclaveni and antes. way before serbs and croats. they absorbed goths and illyrians/thracians which created modern Bosniaks.

Bosniaks are partially ilyrians/thracians without a doubt.. ive confused many for Albanians...

Actually, sclaveni settled in bosnia and most likely asimilated into the illyrian/celtic/ gothic ethno... and were not really proto bosniaks as the word bosnia is a ilyrian/thracian word that has been slavicized.. so basically bosniaks were the first south slavs in the balkans and they did not really adopt a slavic language until 2nd slavic migration.

I bought recently a book on bosnia and bosniaks by noel malcolm that i will read and that they are muslim serbs is huge propaganda.

[Jana]

Even my father doesn't believe it's Slavic. Why I asked him why, he answered:'' I don't have round face and blond hair'' :laugh:
It is a lost battle....

[Wrong]

Even my father doesn't believe it's Slavic. Why I asked him why, he answered:'' I don't have round face and blond hair'' :laugh:
It is a lost battle....
:cool:

[Wrong]

Bosniaks have the least avar genes btw. Its higher in croats and serbs.

Proto bosniaks were one of the first slavs to come into the balkans actually.. from sclaveni and antes. way before serbs and croats. they absorbed goths and illyrians/thracians which created modern Bosniaks.

Bosniaks are partially ilyrians/thracians without a doubt.. ive confused many for Albanians...

Actually, sclaveni settled in bosnia and most likely asimilated into the illyrian/celtic/ gothic ethno... and were not really proto bosniaks as the word bosnia is a ilyrian/thracian word that has been slavicized.. so basically bosniaks were the first south slavs in the balkans and they did not really adopt a slavic language until 2nd slavic migration.

I bought recently a book on bosnia and bosniaks by noel malcolm that i will read and that they are muslim serbs is huge propaganda.

Probably maternally yeah. Paternally Bosniaks have very little pre-Slavic yDNA, around 10-15% max iirc.

[Kelmendasi]

Bosniaks have the least avar genes btw. Its higher in croats and serbs.

Proto bosniaks were one of the first slavs to come into the balkans actually.. from sclaveni and antes. way before serbs and croats. they absorbed goths and illyrians/thracians which created modern Bosniaks.

Bosniaks are partially ilyrians/thracians without a doubt.. ive confused many for Albanians...

Actually, sclaveni settled in bosnia and most likely asimilated into the illyrian/celtic/ gothic ethno... and were not really proto bosniaks as the word bosnia is a ilyrian/thracian word that has been slavicized.. so basically bosniaks were the first south slavs in the balkans and they did not really adopt a slavic language until 2nd slavic migration.

I bought recently a book on bosnia and bosniaks by noel malcolm that i will read and that they are muslim serbs is huge propaganda.
They probably do have autosomal admix from Illyrians but in terms of Ydna they don't have any Illyrian haplogroups since I2a1b is most definitely not Illyrian. The only Bosniaks which have paternal Illyrian origin are the ones with R1b, J2b2, E-V13 and some I2a2 clades

[Wrong]

They probably do have autosomal admix from Illyrians but in terms of Ydna they don't have any Illyrian haplogroups since I2a1b is most definitely not Illyrian. The only Bosniaks which have paternal Illyrian origin are the ones with R1b, J2b2, E-V13 and some I2a2 clades
We don't know yet if all of those yDNA groups present in modern populations were part of Illyrians. We'll have to wait and see for ancient samples that match downstreams with modern population samples.

So far J2b2-L283 does it, for the rest I have not seen any confirmation yet.

[Kelmendasi]

Probably maternally yeah. Paternally Bosniaks have very little pre-Slavic yDNA, around 10-15% max iirc.
Maternally south Slavs have a lot of native Balkan haplogroups, for example T1a1l which I have is found mainly among south Slavs, Romanians and Albanians and it seems tobcome from the Starcevo culture and later on Illyrians/Thracians

[Peterski]

Even my father doesn't believe it's Slavic. Why I asked him why, he answered:'' I don't have round face and blond hair'' :laugh:
It is a lost battle....

According to this map, it seems that the roundest faces are among Romanians and Southern French, while the longest faces among British people, Iberians, Middle Easterners and North Africans:

Croatians have rounder faces than most of Northern Slavs, according to this map:

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/guntherfieur.jpg

http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/guntherfieur.jpg

[Kelmendasi]

We don't know yet if all of those yDNA groups present in modern populations were part of Illyrians. We'll have to wait and see for ancient samples that match downstreams with modern populations.

So far J2b2-L283 does it, for the rest I have not seen any confirmation yet.
Bro the ancestor of R1b-BY611 which is found among us was found in the Vucedol culture also I2a2 was found so many times in Serbia and other parts of the ancient Balkans as well as G2a. As for E-V13, its ancestor was found in Croatia so maybe it evolved around there

[Wrong]

Bro the ancestor of R1b-BY611 which is found among us was found in the Vucedol culture also I2a2 was found so many times in Serbia and other parts of the ancient Balkans as well as G2a. As for E-V13, its ancestor was found in Croatia so maybe it evolved around there
I was not informed of the other markers matching due to absence, but now since you mentioned it I know :cool:

[Peterski]

And South Slavics.

Some of them.

[Wrong]

They probably do have autosomal admix from Illyrians but in terms of Ydna they don't have any Illyrian haplogroups since I2a1b is most definitely not Illyrian. The only Bosniaks which have paternal Illyrian origin are the ones with R1b, J2b2, E-V13 and some I2a2 clades
Checked it now myself, you are correct.

Did any I2a2 lineages survive in the Balkan? Not-counting Goths and other Germanics. I saw Wielbark samples who are most probable Goth candidates had I1 and I2a2.

[cosmoo]

OK, since I live in Budapest, I seen lot of Slovaks. They aren't terribly different from us, neither they look like East Baltics in majority.
They are not very different from your average Purger. They are, however, very different from your average person from Dinaric Alps.
Besides, how would you explain presence of Borreby-like type noted by anthropologists in Montenegro (core) and Herzegovinia/Bosnia (extension)? It is lacking in both Slavic and Illyrian skeletal record. And that only leaves, well, one possibility.

Only Croats that are dfferent are those with West Slavic or German admixture in the north (which is quite common) or those with Italian admixture on the cost. The unmixed ones are suprisingly similar genetically.
Serbs have more differenation than us because they are double bigger population- and separation is on western and eastern autosomally, rather than northern and southern..
I'm not talking about that, rather about Y-DNA and from anthropological perspective. Of course every population living together in a relatively area for a few centuries will become "homogenous" according to those admix calculators.


Btw, we still have around 1/3 of native YDNA lineages and quite a lot of autosomal admixture from people who lived in region before Slavs. Including Goths, but it is small. As far as I know I1 isn't even rare in Montenegro but around 10%.
Nearly all I1 in Montenegrins and Serbs is P109. Moreover, nearly all of it comes from Montenegrin Drobnjak clan. And most importantly, it all comes from Normans which came in 12th century to wage war against Byzantium.
So according to your logic, a band of Norman mercenaries can come in 12th century and leave a lot of descendants behind them (research conducted in 2015 in Prijepolje in SW Serbia revealed that astonishing 25% of men there carry I1, almost all I1-P109), while more than 200.000 Goths can come to Balkans (remember that most of Ostrogoths stayed behind and didn't follow Theoderic into Italy. For more info read Wolfram's book), settle permanently, and yet leave absolutely no genetic trace?
I think you, like all other proponents of Slavic theory, will offer explanation along the lines of "but but but muh genetic drift and founder effect".


Yes! I1 was found in Wielbark samples but no I2-dinaric.
Actually samples that are known so far have nothing to do with Goths at all, as I have explained even before some of results were revealed.
At that time, almost all Goths were already in Ukraine. Kowalewko isn't even close to Ukraine- it is in western Poland. Only samples from the study that may have something to do with Goths are (yet unrevealed) Maslomecz ones, situated in southeasternmost Poland. But for that time period, even Maslomecz is located much more to the northwest than Gothic majority.
So, samples from Kowalewko definitely represent some other (East) Germanic tribe.


Btw, I2-dinaric is most dominant YDNA in Slavonia, R1a is dominant only in hilly north-western Croatia (Zagorje) and alpine Slovenia.
Keep in mind that both Croats and Serbs from Slavonia are in great deal settlers from Dinaric Alps, and that Zagorje and Slovenia are ten times more suitable for agriculture than Dinaric Alps. From my perspective calling Zagorje "hilly" seems almost like a joke.

So why did you put a slavic-looking picture in your profile? :)
I've been told here before that I look Slavic, but I don't really agree...
Anyways, forum anthrotardism focusing itself on subjectively perceived "vibes" and "passing" is totally opposite to real anthropology.

[cosmoo]

I saw Wielbark samples who are most probable Goth candidates had I1 and I2a2.
Read above- Kowalewko samples have nothing whatsoever to do with Goths, who were much, much more to the southeast at that time.
Besides, even tribes separated by merely hundred miles in Iron Age Poland had extremely different genetic structure:

Hints of deep genetic substructure in Iron Age Poland:

"The DNA of individuals from two early Roman-Period populations of Linowo and Rogowo was analysed. The distribution of three mutations varied significantly when compared to the modern Polish population. The TAFT analysis suggests that the decreased frequency of SLC11A1 D543N in modern Poles as compared to 2nd century Linowo samples is the result of non-stochastic mechanisms, such as purifying or balancing selection. The disparity in frequency of other mutations is most likely the result of genetic drift, an evolutionary force which is remarkably amplified in low-size groups. Together with the FST analysis, mtDNA haplotypes' distribution and deviation from the Hardy-Weinberg equilibrium, we suggest that the two populations were not interbreeding (despite the close proximity between them), but rather inbreeding, the results of which are particularly pronounced among Rogowo habitants.

Although no sound evidence of population differentiation was found when comparing the samples of Linowo and Rogowo, it is worth noticing that the distribution of mtDNA haplotypes between these two settlements differs remarkably. Apart from the two haplotypes (rCRS and 16126C) that occur in both studied groups, no other pattern of mtDNA SNPs is shared between them. The lack of reflection of these dissimilarities in the FST analysis is probably a result of the low-size group which is more exposed to result bias or low diversity of haplotypes among Rogowo individuals. All of the above allows to draw the theoretical conclusion that although these two settlements date back to the same period and are located within 55 km (or around 160 km along the Vistula River) of one another, they are genetically remote."

[Platinum]

Hail Iliria !!

Hail the I2a1b Ilirs, most paleo Balkan looking people !!

[Artek]

It is not really sure if this sample is I2a1b-Din, but it most probably is.
Oldest I2a1b-Din was actually found in Motala12 sample (L147.2+).
It was not an I2a1b-Din understood as Y3210, that by now symbolises so-called I2-Din clade.


I don't know if you saw it on anthrogenica, but newly tested American with origin from Alsace (with earlier origin in Lower Rhine area) is I2a1b-Din but ancestral to all downstream clades, and he effectivly pushes TMRCA of I2a1b-Din as much as a few thousand years, with its origin much more westwards than originally thought.

That's right, aside that it is just distantly related to I2-Din, most likely by ~1500 years. That's a lot in history.



I2a1b-Din did not participate in Slavic ethnogenesis, therefore it is not "as Slavic as", for example, R1a-M458/Z280.

It did, if we speak about Y3210. At the same time, various clades of Z280 and M458 did not participate in Slavic ethnogenesis

[Peterski]

At the same time, various clades of Z280 and M458 did not participate in Slavic ethnogenesis

Which clades of M458 did not participate in it?

[Artek]

Which clades of M458 did not participate in it?

These clades are obviously a tiny fraction of modern M458 as a whole but there are instances of M458 in Wales, Sardinia and in the Tatarstan/Caucasus that don't look like anything downstream from L260/CTS11962/L1029. It is mainly plain M458xPF7521, PF7521, PF6188, Y2604xL260,CTS11962. Although negative to M458, PF6155xM458 is also worth mentioning.

[Jana]

These clades are obviously a tiny fraction of modern M458 as a whole but there are instances of M458 in Wales, Sardinia and in the Tatarstan/Caucasus that don't look like anything downstream from L260/CTS11962/L1029. It is mainly plain M458xPF7521, PF7521, PF6188, Y2604xL260,CTS11962. Although negative to M458, PF6155xM458 is also worth mentioning.

What about PH908, most typical I2 subclade among dinaric Slavs ? It is younger than din-North clades, but not very common among Northern Slavs.

[Artek]

What about PH908, most typical I2 subclade among dinaric Slavs ? It is younger than din-North clades, but not very common among Northern Slavs.

On this https://www.google.com/maps/d/viewer?mid=131mHMXo8l7tgnlMT-bC5JY1iDg0&hl=pl&ll=48.00759819264768%2C22.076094300532304&z=6 map of "Dinaric" clade made by one of my colleagues (he is under S17250 clade himself) it is clearly visible that high frequency in the Balkans has to be explained mostly by the founder effects of few clans under Y3210, whereas the Y3210 seems to be the most diverse in the Ukraine and all clades have counterparts there.

But well, for example not so many Romanians are tested with that kind of resolution.

[Vojnik]

My Polish Grandfather. Does it mean i have some Polish in me? :P

[Bosniensis]

My Polish Grandfather. Does it mean i have some Polish in me? :P

According to TA, both you and me are from Polish and Ukrainian territories, a people who are usurping Albanian and Greek territory on Balkans.

[Vojnik]

According to TA, both you and me are from Polish and Ukrainian territories, a people who are usurping Albanian and Greek territory on Balkans.

I2a1b started in the Balkans and spread north. Don't worry about them.

[Kelmendasi]

I2a1b-Din is clearly of Slavic origin in the Balkans.

[Artek]

I don't know what's so wrong with that. But obviously, it seems that to some people possibility of Slavic ancestry on straight paternal line is not so cool as Illyrian or Celtic and Germanic ;D.

But aside that, it will be more interesting to find out how exactly Y-3210 ended up to participate in early Slavic ethnogenesis.

Even if it comes from one lineage that originated in the Balkans at some point of history, it does seem that the carriers who spread it were Slavic speakers from the Ukraine(?). But who cares ;D.

Damn, I don't know why so many Balkan people from such forum as this are so obsessed with trying to be autochtonous from forever on, just like Indians.

[Jana]

I don't know what's so wrong with that. But obviously, it seems that to some people possibility of Slavic ancestry on straight paternal line is not so cool as Illyrian or Celtic and Germanic ;D.

But aside that, it will be more interesting to find out how exactly Y-3210 ended up to participate in early Slavic ethnogenesis.

Even if it comes from one lineage that originated in the Balkans at some point of history, it does seem that the carriers who spread it were Slavic speakers from the Ukraine(?). But who cares ;D.

Damn, I don't know why so many Balkan people from such forum as this are so obsessed with trying to be autochtonous from forever on, just like Indians.

Identity crisis, it is pathetic.

[Bosniensis]

I2a1b-Din is clearly of Slavic origin in the Balkans.

J1 is Arab in origin everyone knows that.

It's highly possible that you are Albanized Arab.

We have an evidences that entire Europe was I2 and are True Proto-European people

while we have undisputed evidences that J1 is Arab.

The fact that only Sardinians and South Slavs represent I2 people today (predominantly) we don't have a chance to challenge a BIASED Indo-European and Greek world.

[Kelmendasi]

J1 is Arab in origin everyone knows that.

It's highly possible that you are Albanized Arab.

We have an evidences that entire Europe was I2 and are True Proto-European people

while we have undisputed evidences that J1 is Arab.

The fact that only Sardinians and South Slavs represent I2 people today (predominantly) we don't have a chance to challenge a BIASED Indo-European and Greek world.
Actually my paternal line is originally more like Illyrianized-Levantine, Romanized-Levantine or even Hellenified-Levantine. My paternal line came into the Balkans before Albanians were a thing, either during the Hellenic periods or Roman periods. It was part of the Albanian ethnogenesis

[Vojnik]

R1a and I2a1b are both Slavic, yeah guys?

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~klio/maps/rr/colonies.jpg

Or is it just assumed to be Slavic as most of it's carriers speak a Slavic language today?

[Kelmendasi]

R1a and I2a1b are both Slavic, yeah guys?

[IG]https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif[/IMG]

[MG]https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif[/IMG]

[IM]http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~klio/maps/rr/colonies.jpg[/IMG]

Or is it just assumed to be Slavic as most of it's carriers speak a Slavic language today?
No, it's Slavic or has origin in the area that Slavs came from because of the areas where it reaches highest diversity, TMRCAs and ancient samples

[Vojnik]

No, it's Slavic or has origin in the area that Slavs came from because of the areas where it reaches highest diversity, TMRCAs and ancient samples

So they dug up ancient remains in eastern Europe and found them to carry haplogroup I2a?

[Kelmendasi]

So they dug up ancient remains in eastern Europe and found them to carry haplogroup I2a?
The clade that is ancestral to the subgroup carried by Slavs was found in Sweden(SHG, Motala) so perhaps there was migration from this area into east Europe, but the I2a1b-Din samples have been found in Russia and Poland. Ancient Balkan I2 samples have all showed up as I2a2a apart from one I2a1a iirc

[Bosniensis]

R1a and I2a1b are both Slavic, yeah guys?

[IM]https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif[/IMG]

[IG]https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif[/IMG]

[IG]http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~klio/maps/rr/colonies.jpg[/IMG]

Or is it just assumed to be Slavic as most of it's carriers speak a Slavic language today?

I've figured that it's not our Haplogroup or anything they refuse to accept but that they have to denounce most of modern French, Germanic, Saxon people as barbarian invaders in case they recognize us.

It's easier to proclaim I2 people as steppe warriors who conquered Balkan, than to touch Majestic R1b haplogroup from Scandinavia.

Good question: Where are ALL I2 people from Gaul and Spain?

Answer: Massacred by those who today denounce Balkan people as Trash.

https://www.abroadintheyard.com/wp-content/uploads/Europe-c-2000-BC-8h-jpg.jpg

[Pribislav]

bump

[Xz2k9]

Obviously Polak ......... :D

[Dick]

Nope. Haplogroup I is indigenous to the Balkans