Gheg and Tosk K15 clusters

[Kelmendasi]

I may of made some small errors near the end because I was rushing but I think the errors are minor if I did make any.

Gheg cluster(majority are from Kosova with the rest being from Montenegro and northern Albania):
https://s11.postimg.org/sj8tlzvib/Gheg_cluster_K15.png




Tosk cluster(Thanks to Safinator for providing more Tosk samples. All are from southern Albania):
https://s15.postimg.org/yeq7rkhff/Tosk_cluster_K15.png

[safinator]

I have a lot of samples, both gheg and tosk, i will put some tosk ones below to see if you already put them in the map.

A967727
M120552
FE12439
M054311
M884924
A866661
A906637
A981233
M686162
M184127
M013610
A137680
M832372
A958517
M127068
M850601
M701496
M424408
T634730
T188616
A889964

[Kelmendasi]

I have a lot of samples, both gheg and tosk, i will put some tosk ones below to see if you already put them in the map.

A967727
M120552
FE12439
M054311
M884924
A866661
A906637
A981233
M686162
M184127
M013610
A137680
M832372
A958517
M127068
M850601
M701496
M424408
T634730
T188616
A889964
Thanks man, will add them now. Do you know if any are from Greece and other regions apart from Albania?

[safinator]

Thanks man, will add them now. Do you know if any are from Greece and other regions apart from Albania?

All of them Albanian tosks aka none is from places like Cameria or Ohrid area in Macedonia.

[Kelmendasi]

All of them Albanian tosks aka none is from places like Cameria or Ohrid area in Macedonia.
Thanks. Would be great if we could find some Arbereshe or Arvanite samples, i'll try and look for some

[The Illyrian Warrior]

Just take average from all regions separately and see where each cluster.

[safinator]

Thanks. Would be great if we could find some Arbereshe or Arvanite samples, i'll try and look for some

The problem with such samples is that the Albanians mixed respectively with Italians and Greeks since the migrations happened hundred of years ago, the odds of finding a pure Arvanite or Arbereshe are minimal.

[Sikeliot]

Ghegs seem to shift toward West Europe and Italy, and Tosks are more similar to mainland Greeks.

[The Illyrian Warrior]

The problem with such samples is that the Albanians mixed respectively with Italians and Greeks since the migrations happened hundred of years ago, the odds of finding a pure Arvanite or Arbereshe are minimal.

Exactly, they would plot no different from rest of people where they are geographically closest.

[Kelmendasi]

The problem with such samples is that the Albanians mixed respectively with Italians and Greeks since the migrations happened hundred of years ago, the odds of finding a pure Arvanite or Arbereshe are minimal.
True, but I still think it will be interesting to see where they plot

[Kelmendasi]

Just take average from all regions separately and see where each cluster.
Will do that later maybe.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Why they are not homogeneous at all?

[Kelmendasi]

Why they are not homogeneous at all?
They are, I thought it would be cool to see if Tosks actually were all that southern when compared with Ghegs genetically

[Lek]

Ghegs seem to shift toward West Europe and Italy, and Tosks are more similar to mainland Greeks.

Yeah, the Gheg ones who plot North and show no north euro and slavic admix, sure but look at how south some others plot. There were Tosk migrations into Ghegnia and vice versa.

Atleast half of the Ghegs on this forum seem to be Tosk derived. And some even get slavic and north euro yet plot more south than me still.

Proper Ghegs/Northern Ilyrians would of never in a million years plotted with mainland Greeks /tuscans or get Greek on Dna test.

Except for some coastal colonizations, Ilyrian areas like North Albania, montenegro, dalmatia, hercegovina, bosnia, etc had nothing to do with anything genetically greek or south of the Balkans.

They were northern plotting people similar to that of northern Italians if not even more north.

[Kelmendasi]

Yeah, the Gheg ones who plot North and show no north euro and slavic admix, sure but look at how south some others plot. There were Tosk migrations into Ghegnia and vice versa.

Atleast half of the Ghegs on this forum seem to be Tosk derived. And some even get slavic and north euro yet plot more south than me still.


Proper Ghegs/Northern Ilyrians would of never in a million years plotted with mainland Greeks /tuscans or get Greek on Dna test.

Except for some coastal colonizations, Ilyrian areas like North Albania, montenegro, dalmatia, hercegovina, bosnia, etc had nothing to do with anything genetically greek or south of the Balkans.

They were northern plotting people similar to that of northern Italians if not even more north.
Ghegs that plot south may just have more Neolithic admix it doesn't necessarily mean that they are derived from Tosks

[safinator]

Ghegs that plot south may just have more Neolithic admix it doesn't necessarily mean that they are derived from Tosks

It means nothing in fact some tosks plot quite north so it does not tell much.

[Kelmendasi]

It means nothing in fact some tosks plot quite north so it does not tell much.
Yh, some Tosks plot with Bulgarians and north Italians. This doesn't mean that they are derived from Ghegs or Slavs, it means that they have more Steppe or HG admix IMO and less Neolithic

[Kelmendasi]

I have updated the Tosk PCA

[safinator]

Btw who is the top guy between Serbians and Croatians on your gheg map?

The northernmost Albanian among Albanians on Gedmatch it's still lower than Serbians and the one on the map does not look albanian like?

[Dibran]

I may of made some small errors near the end because I was rushing but I think the errors are minor if I did make any.

Gheg cluster(majority are from Kosova with the rest being from Montenegro and northern Albania):
https://s11.postimg.org/sj8tlzvib/Gheg_cluster_K15.png


Tosk cluster(Thanks to Safinator for providing more Tosk samples. All are from southern Albania):
https://s15.postimg.org/yeq7rkhff/Tosk_cluster_K15.png


So south north plotting doesn't mean anything I suppose. Considering they plot relatively the same and you have more northern shifted tosks and some southern shifted Ghegs.

[Dibran]

True, but I still think it will be interesting to see where they plot

Living actually shifts me more toward my father and thessaly but still a bit to the top left of him towards tuscany.

LivingDNA result:


Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 West_Med 23.7
2 East_Med 23.28
3 North_Sea 12.79
4 West_Asian 12.77
5 Atlantic 11.82
6 Baltic 8.65
7 Eastern_Euro 6.99

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek_Thessaly 7.65
2 Greek 8.39
3 Central_Greek 9.59
4 Tuscan 10.48
5 Italian_Abruzzo 10.79
6 East_Sicilian 10.82
7 West_Sicilian 11.38
8 South_Italian 11.65
9 Ashkenazi 12.17
10 Bulgarian 13.52
11 North_Italian 14.16
12 Romanian 15.44
13 Italian_Jewish 15.75
14 Algerian_Jewish 16.77
15 Sephardic_Jewish 17.63
16 Serbian 18.14
17 Portuguese 21.16
18 Tunisian_Jewish 21.47
19 Libyan_Jewish 21.47
20 Spanish_Galicia 21.53

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 83.7% Greek_Thessaly + 16.3% Sardinian @ 5.49
2 84.4% Greek + 15.6% Sardinian @ 6.72
3 66.2% Greek_Thessaly + 33.8% Greek @ 7.37
4 81.5% Central_Greek + 18.5% Sardinian @ 7.4
5 79.6% Greek_Thessaly + 20.4% Tuscan @ 7.41
6 82.6% Greek_Thessaly + 17.4% South_Italian @ 7.41
7 87% Greek_Thessaly + 13% North_Italian @ 7.44
8 83.7% Greek_Thessaly + 16.3% West_Sicilian @ 7.46
9 92.7% Greek_Thessaly + 7.3% Spanish_Andalucia @ 7.48
10 79% Greek_Thessaly + 21% Central_Greek @ 7.48
11 91.3% Greek_Thessaly + 8.7% Algerian_Jewish @ 7.52
12 96.4% Greek_Thessaly + 3.6% French_Basque @ 7.54
13 95.1% Greek_Thessaly + 4.9% Spanish_Cantabria @ 7.55
14 94.7% Greek_Thessaly + 5.3% Spanish_Valencia @ 7.55
15 95.4% Greek_Thessaly + 4.6% Spanish_Aragon @ 7.55
16 95.1% Greek_Thessaly + 4.9% Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha @ 7.56
17 92.5% Greek_Thessaly + 7.5% Italian_Jewish @ 7.57
18 95.8% Greek_Thessaly + 4.2% Southwest_French @ 7.57
19 89.8% Greek_Thessaly + 10.2% Italian_Abruzzo @ 7.6
20 96% Greek_Thessaly + 4% Cyprian @ 7.6

[ChocolateFace]

Here is where I plot on the map

http://i447.photobucket.com/albums/qq200/yankeesfan0130/gedmk15_zpsmqz6rnac.png

[Dusan]

Thanks. Would be great if we could find some Arbereshe or Arvanite samples, i'll try and look for some

I made a thread that includes Arbereshe from a peer review study , both Tosks and Arbereshe are more Southern or, am I reading it wrong? the Arb is Arbereshe,


https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?239342-Tosk-vs-Gheg-vs-Arbereshe-PCA-map

And here is the pca map,

https://media.nature.com/original/nature-assets/ejhg/journal/v24/n4/extref/ejhg2015138x3.jpg

[Iremo]

Kind of late to this post, But if you need a Cham Albanian sample I'd be happy to provide my kit number.

[kleenex]

Ghegs seem to shift toward West Europe and Italy, and Tosks are more similar to mainland Greeks.

Are you serious? Which mainland Greeks certainly not Western Peloponnesians.

[Kelmendasi]

Are you serious? Which mainland Greeks certainly not Western Peloponnesians.
Tosks plot with Ghegs in general but they are slightly more southern shifted and so plot a bit more with Greeks from the mainland, on K15 the closest Greeks were those from Thessaly

[Coolguy1]

Tosks plot with Ghegs in general but they are slightly more southern shifted and so plot a bit more with Greeks from the mainland, on K15 the closest Greeks were those from Thessaly

From the averages I have collected Labs and Chams can shift west towards to Central Italians compared to Greeks. Tosks from the southeast are more northeast shifted.

[safinator]

From the averages I have collected Labs and Chams can shift west towards to Central Italians compared to Greeks. Tosks from the southeast are more northeast shifted.

That's right and chams among the southern Albanian groups are the moust South Eastern shifted which is not surprising.