Y-DNA from Iron Age & Early Medieval Poland

[Peterski]

All of the samples published so far are from 7 locations:

Late Iron Age (dates) samples:

KO = Kowalewko (100-300 AD)
MZ = Maslomecz (200-400 AD)

Early Medieval (dates) samples:

NA = Niemcza (900-1000 AD)
SI = Sowinki (1000-1100 AD)
LO = Legowo (1000-1200 AD)
GO = Gniezno (1000-1200 AD)
ME = Markowice (1000-1200 AD)

https://s4.postimg.org/3n9kl6d5p/mapa.jpg

So far we can assign Y-DNA to the following samples:

KO_55, Kowalewko (100-300 AD), I1a3a1a1-Y6626
KO_45, Kowalewko (100-300 AD), I2a2a1b2a-L801
KO_22, Kowalewko (100-300 AD), G2a2b-L30
KO_57, Kowalewko (100-300 AD), G2a2b-L30

ME_7, Markowice (1000-1200 AD), I1a2a2a5-Y5384
NA_13, Niemcza, (900-1000 AD), I2a1b2-L621
NA_18, Niemcza, (900-1000 AD), J2a1a-L26

Other confirmed males (but no Y-DNA assignment) include:

Ancient group (3): KO_18, KO_36, KO_8
Medieval (7): NA_29, NA_2, NA_3, ME_4, LO_5, SI_10, SI_11

In total there must be 9 samples of I1, because ME_7 is not included here:

https://www.academia.edu/33791135/2017_Zenczak_.....Piontek_..._Y-chromosome_haplogroup_assignment_through_next_gene ration_sequencing_of_enriched_ancient_DNA_librarie s

Only samples from Kowalewko, Maslomecz, Legowo and Niemcza are here.

So I1a2a2a5-Y5384 from Early Medieval Markowice is our 9th sample of I1:

http://i.imgur.com/GSuhSG5.png

[Peterski]

That shortage of R1b and R1a makes me think that they deliberately published only Non-R1 samples.

But we shall find out later.

[Peterski]

This I1a3 from Iron Age Poland (Wielbark) does not confirm Scandinavian origin of Goths:

KO_55, Poland, Wielbark culture, Kowalewko (100-300 AD), I1a3a1a1-Y6626

See below:

https://aleximreh.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/goth1.png?w=768

From Eupedia:

"(...) It corresponds to the Z63+ subclade. I1a3-Z63+ subclade is virtually absent from Nordic countries. It is most common in Central Germany, the Benelux, England, Lowland Scotland, as well as Poland. It has also been found in Russia, Ukraine, the Balkans, Italy, Spain and Portugal. Y2245.2+ makes up a big part of the Z63 in Russia, Ukraine, Poland, the Balkans, Italy and Iberia. It could have been spread by the Goths. BY351+ is a subclade found in Portugal, Spain, Italy (including Sardinia). It was probably spread by the Visigoths and Ostrogoths. (...)"

[Peterski]

Autosomal DNA and mtDNA from Iron Age and Early Medieval Poland in this thread:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?212617-Iron-Age-and-Early-Medieval-Polish-DNA-coming-soon&p=4457132&viewfull=1#post4457132

[Damião de Góis]

This I1a3 from Iron Age Poland (Wielbark) does not confirm Scandinavian origin of Goths:

KO_55, Poland, Wielbark culture, Kowalewko (100-300 AD), I1a3a1a1-Y6626

See below:

https://aleximreh.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/goth1.png?w=768

From Eupedia:

"(...) It corresponds to the Z63+ subclade. I1a3-Z63+ subclade is virtually absent from Nordic countries. It is most common in Central Germany, the Benelux, England, Lowland Scotland, as well as Poland. It has also been found in Russia, Ukraine, the Balkans, Italy, Spain and Portugal. Y2245.2+ makes up a big part of the Z63 in Russia, Ukraine, Poland, the Balkans, Italy and Iberia. It could have been spread by the Goths. BY351+ is a subclade found in Portugal, Spain, Italy (including Sardinia). It was probably spread by the Visigoths and Ostrogoths. (...)"

Eupedia jumping into conclusions again.


It is most common in Central Germany, the Benelux, England, Lowland Scotland, as well as Poland. It has also been found in Russia, Ukraine, the Balkans, Italy, Spain and Portugal. Y2245.2+ makes up a big part of the Z63 in Russia, Ukraine, Poland, the Balkans, Italy and Iberia. It could have been spread by the Goths

How was it spread by the Goths? Were they ever in Benelux, England, Scotland or Russia?

As for the Wielbark culture sample, it could also be a Gepid.

[Peterski]

We already have at least 3 or 4 samples of I1a3a1a1 from Iron Age and Early Medieval Poland. Because apart from KO_55, there are also three samples identified as I1a3a1a1a by Zenczak:

http://i.imgur.com/GSuhSG5.png

Of course KO_55 can be one of them. This is why I wrote that we have either 3 or 4. In addition to that, we have two samples of I1a2a from Medieval (and Iron Age?) Poland, including ME_7.

[Peterski]

East Germanic tribes from Poland migrated all the way to Benelux and France in the 400s:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossing_of_the_Rhine


31 December 406 is the often-repeated date of the crossing of the Rhine by a mixed group of barbarians that included Vandals, Alans and Suebi. The Rhine-crossing transgressed one of the Late Roman Empire's most secure limites or boundaries, and so was a climactic moment in the decline of the Empire. It initiated a wave of destruction of Roman cities and the collapse of Roman civic order in northern Gaul. That, in turn, occasioned the rise of three usurpers in succession in the province of Britannia. Therefore, the crossing of the Rhine is a marker date in the Migration Period, during which various Germanic tribes moved westward and southward (...)

Later their descendants migrated from Benelux and France to Britain, as Anglo-Saxons and Normans. They became part of the so called Anglo-Saxons (in fact those were very mixed Germanic-speaking groups - and the most numerous part were Frisians, not Saxons) and migrated to Britain during the 400s-600s. Alternatively, they could become part of the Normans and move to Britain after 1066 AD.

Only finding I1a3 in older aDNA from outside of Poland can prove that I1a3 is not East Germanic.

So far all of the oldest samples of I1a3 are from Iron Age Poland.

And it is not impossble that I1a3 migrated to Britain from Poland, because it could be carried for example by the Vandals, who came from Poland, and who invaded Northern France after 31.12.406 AD. It is estimated that 150,000 people crossed the Rhine and moved into Northern France on that day.

[Rethel]

That shortage of R1b and R1a makes me think that they deliberately published only Non-R1 samples.

Why would they do that?

[Peterski]

ME_7, Markowice (1000-1200 AD), I1a2a2a5-Y5384

He is one of these peasant skeletons shown here:

http://strzelno3.bloog.pl/id,342547295,title,Odkrycia-archeologiczne-w-Markowicach,index.html?smoybbtticaid=6197b0


Leżące na najżyźniejszych glebach naszej gminy Markowice, zdają się swymi korzeniami sięgać bardzo odległych wieków. Bliskość Niemojewka i związane z tą miejscowością znaleziska, upewniają nas, że u zarania państwowości polskiej Markowice stanowić mogły wykształconą już osadę. Dotychczasowe znalezisko zdaje się utwierdzić moje domysły zawarte w tejże książce, że początki Markowic, jako wykształconej wsi i to dużej wsi sięgają początków chrześcijaństwa na tym terenie. Jednakże dopiero końcowe wyniki badań pozwolą na pełniejszy wgląd w pozostałości po pradziejowym osadnictwie na tym obszarze.

http://pu.i.wp.pl/bloog/94156279/48363111/DSC_0543_VH_big.jpg

An Early Medieval I2a-Din peasant (?) was also found:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?6522-Early-Medieval-aDNA-from-Poland-coming-soon&p=257687&viewfull=1#post257687

NA_13, Niemcza, (900-1000 AD), I2a1b2-L621

=======================

Markowice are Group NE (rural settlements), as for Niemcza I'm not sure if they are NE or E:

http://s4.postimg.org/cnzq9ygcd/Piast_realm.png

I've heard rumours / leaks about 2 samples from Group E (Elites) who are R1a.

Including one R1a-M458>L260 and one undetermined branch of R1a.

Meanwhile, Markowice I1-M253 is Non-Elites for sure, and Niemcza probably too.

The Piasts are confirmed R1b.

So far we have R1b Royalty > R1a Elites > other haplogroups in rural settlements.

One R1a is from a high-ranking aristocrat associated with the Komes of Wrocław:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komes

This R1a is not from the Komes himself, but from one of his high-ranking nobiles.

As for the Komes himself, I don't know what was his Y-DNA but he was also tested.

[Rethel]

It is interersting, that for the non Piastic groups
they are testing the same number of samples... :picard1:

It is fine of course, that Piasts are going to be
tested in such big collective, but in imply that
general population groups should be tested by
bigger number of samples, at least some couple
of thosands of samples for each group. 200 of
Piasts = 2/3 of all Piasts.

[Tschaikisten]

So far we have R1b Royalty > R1a Elites > other haplogroups in rural settlements.

:picard1:



KO_22, Kowalewko (100-300 AD), G2a2b-L30
KO_57, Kowalewko (100-300 AD), G2a2b-L30

This telling us nothing.

[cosmoo]

And again, you posting your wet dreams about I1/I2/J2 peasants in Medieval Poland and R1 nobility.
I know men capable of wishful thinking, but none of so lucid one.

[Dick]

:picard1:

This telling us nothing.

Neither does the I1 found. z63 has a lot of branches

[Dick]

And again, you posting your wet dreams about I1/I2/J2 peasants in Medieval Poland and R1 nobility.
I know men capable of wishful thinking, but none of so lucid one.

Like they knew everyone's ydna back then. Only I1/I2/J2 were exclusively peasants under law :lol:

[cosmoo]

Like they knew everyone's ydna back then. Only I1/I2/J2 were exclusively peasants under law :lol:
He even put his own haplogroup, R1b, as "royalty", while R1a apparently were lesser nobility. :rofl:

[Dick]

He even put his own haplogroup, R1b, as "royalty", while R1a apparently were lesser nobility. :rofl:

Ah well, we all want our Hg's to be special. Boys will be boys.

[Rethel]

An Early Medieval I2a-Din peasant (?) was also found:

NA_13, Niemcza, (900-1000 AD), I2a1b2-L621

Markowice are Group NE (rural settlements),

Meanwhile, Markowice I1-M253 is Non-Elites for sure, and Niemcza probably too.

other haplogroups in rural settlements.[/B]

Typical Goć...

http://img.wiocha.pl/images/2/8/283012300d58d75fe24810855c5f7f7b.jpg?s=1497811598

[Dick]

Typical Goć...

http://img.wiocha.pl/images/2/8/283012300d58d75fe24810855c5f7f7b.jpg?s=1497811598


He looks like you. Round face, no chin, noble Knight! :lol:

[Rethel]

He looks like you. Round face, no chin, noble Knight! :lol:

:picard2:

[Fustan]

IJ ruling poland til the end of the galaksy.

[Dick]

What about this reconstruction Cniva posted here? Goth peasant?



http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?212617-Iron-Age-and-Early-Medieval-Polish-DNA-coming-soon&p=4502468&viewfull=1#post4502468


http://i.imgur.com/TcWdbZN.jpg

[Peterski]

It is fine of course, that Piasts are going to be
tested in such big collective

They aren't, because most of 340 graves turned out to be empty.

[Rethel]

They aren't, because most of 340 graves turned out to be empty.

But assumptions were like that.
Should be different - as I said :)

[Rethel]

:)

[Peterski]

Goth peasant?

About Vandals who stayed in Poland (probably the same applied to Goths):

From Procopius, History of the Wars, III, xxii, 13-16:

"(...) Now as for those Vandals who remained in their native land, neither remembrance nor any name of them has been preserved to my time. (...) they were either overpowered by the neighbouring barbarians or they were mingled with them [Slavs] not at all unwillingly and their name gave way to that of their conquerors. Indeed, when the Vandals were conquered at that time by Belisarius, no thought occurred to them to go from there to their ancestral homes. For they were not able to convey themselves suddenly from Libya to Europe, especially as they had no ships at hand, but paid the penalty [2] there for all the wrongs they had done the Romans and especially the Zacynthians. (...)"

[2] In Arcana, 18, 5 ff., Procopius estimates the number of the Vandals in Africa, at the time of Belisarius, at 80,000 males, and intimates that practically all perished.

[Peterski]

"Archaeology of Early Medieval Poland" by Andrzej Buko (English edition):

https://brego-weard.com/lib/ns/The_Archaeology_of_Early_Medieval_Poland_Discov.pd f

https://books.google.pl/books?id=i6A3Q1WQIroC&pg=PA195&lpg=PA195&dq=Vladimir+went+to+Lachs+981&source=bl&ots=yLsVDe3ADn&sig=UcFvganPG-vlrKDE0FeCA2ECakw&hl=pl&sa=X&ei=G1KkU9epGe-h7AaA7IH4Dw&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Vladimir%20went%20to%20Lachs%20981&f=false