Do Germans are genetically more similar to Scandinavians or French?

[AphroditeWorshiper]

I know the question is stupid and probably there another thread about this, but I didn't found, I was just wondering :confused:

[Dick]

I know the question is stupid and probably there another thread about this, but I didn't found, I was just wondering :confused:

Depends on the regions. Some closer to French, other to scandinavians and easterly to Poles

[Septentrion]

Germans are genetically closer to the French obviously. Since both are predominantly Western and Central European genetically.

[Dandelion]

The ones from Schleswig-Holstein might be closer to Scandinavians and the ones from Rhineland closer to France, actually closer to the Low Countries.

[Jana]

Overall average is quite closer to France.

[Septentrion]

For a better picture, let us compare their genomic pictures:

French (Only for ethnic French people, not others!) genome:
Western & Central Europe = 59%
Southern Europe = 21%
Great Britain & Ireland = 7%
Eastern Europe = 5%
Jewish Diaspora = 3%
Scandinavia = 2%
Northern Africa = 2%

German (Only ethnic Germans) genome:
Western & Central Europe = 42%
Eastern Europe = 16%
Scandinavia = 14%
Great Britain & Ireland = 11%
Southern Europe = 6%
Finland & Northern Siberia = 6%
Jewish Diaspora = 5%

Dutch (Only for ethnic people of the Netherlands) genome:
Western & Central Europe = 59%
Great Britain & Ireland = 19%
Scandinavia = 13%
Eastern Europe = 6%
Southern Europe = 3%

[Peterski]

North Germans are closer to Scandinavians.

Germans from Schleswig are actually just Germanized Danes, for the most part:

https://s23.postimg.org/ah4dme1aj/Germanized.png

https://s23.postimg.org/ah4dme1aj/Germanized.png

[Dandelion]

North Germans are closer to Scandinavians.

Germans from Schleswig are actually just Germanized Danes, for the most part:

https://s23.postimg.org/ah4dme1aj/Germanized.png

https://s23.postimg.org/ah4dme1aj/Germanized.png

Oldenburg (Starigrad) was formerly Slavic land. I didn't know. Ten years ago I had an internet friend from there. Little does he know he'll be soon part of the Polish Empire.

EDIT: He was from the other Oldenburg, not from Oldenburg in Holstein. ;)

[Ülev]

Oldenburg (Starigrad) was formerly Slavic land. I didn't know. Ten years ago I had an internet friend from there. Little does he know he'll be soon part of the Polish Empire.

EDIT: He was from the other Oldenburg, not from Oldenburg in Holstein. ;)

whatever, new Polish EmpiR1e will take everything

[Jana]

PS: I don't think east Germans are exactly same like Poles. More like Czechs or more northwest shifted-Hungarians. Poles are more northern on average than them, and actually closer to north Germans if I remember well.

[Leto]

and easterly to Poles
Rather to Czechs. Czechs are kind of a mix of West Germans and Belorussians.

[Septentrion]

PS: I don't think east Germans are exactly same like Poles. More like Czechs or more northwest shifted-Hungarians. Poles are more northern on average than them, and actually closer to north Germans if I remember well.

Poles are not more "northern" than Germans, O.K.
They are a prevalently an Eastern European people. Though they have mixed with Germans and other nearby people through the course of history!

[Jana]

Poles are not more "northern" than Germans, O.K.
They are a prevalently an Eastern European people. Though they have mixed with Germans and other nearby people through the course of history!

Nope. Poles have much less mediterranean ancestry than Germans. So they are northeastern shifted compared with German average.

[Böri]

Germans plot closer to Danes than to both French or Poles.
Poles and French must fight with each other to decide who is closer to Germans between the two.

[Mucius Scaevola]

Northern Germans to Scandinavians, Eastern to Poles and Western to French, probably.

[Jana]

Germans plot closer to Danes than to both French or Poles.
Poles and French must fight with each other to decide who is closer to Germans between the two.

the answer is czechs
https://i.imgur.com/X34pUEM.png

[Septentrion]

Nope. Poles have much less mediterranean ancestry than Germans. So they are northeastern shifted compared with German average.

No, dear. I am afraid but you are mistaken. When we compare both the overall German and Polish genomes with biogeographic regions, it is to tell which population has more genomic affinity with Mediterranean regions.
1.) German genome:
Western & Central Europe = 42%
Eastern Europe = 16%
Scandinavia = 14%
Great Britain & Ireland = 11%
Southern Europe = 6%
Finland & Northern Siberia = 6%
Jewish Diaspora = 5%

2.) Polish genome:
Eastern Europe = 59%
Western & Central Europe = 13%
Southern Europe = 7%
Jewish Diaspora = 6%
Asia Minor = 5%
Finland and Northern Siberia = 5%
Central Asia = 3%
Scandinavia = 2%
Thus it is pretty clear, that Poles are not any more northern genetically than Germans as a whole. Mediterranean genes ( Southern Europe + Asia Minor especially to a lesser extent Jewish Diaspora) are more numerous in the Polish than the German population.

[Septentrion]

PS: I don't think east Germans are exactly same like Poles. More like Czechs or more northwest shifted-Hungarians. Poles are more northern on average than them, and actually closer to north Germans if I remember well.

Oh well, there is the Czech genome:
Eastern Europe = 46%
Western & Central Europe = 28%
Southern Europe = 11%
Jewish Diaspora = 4%
Asia Minor = 4%
Scandinavia = 2%
Central Asia = 2%
The Czech share more similarities with Germans than Poles, but are still "eastern-oriented" as Poles. Finally they are not more "northern"- shifted than either Germans or Poles.

[Bobby Martnen]

Scandinavians.

Ethnically French people (i.e. not Alsatians, who are Germanic; or Bretons, who are Celtic) are a SW-Euro/Mediterranean people, like Spaniards or Italians.

Germans are NW-Euro/North Atlantic like Scandinavians, British Isles, and the Dutch/Flemish

[Zroota]

French on average.

[Leto]

Oh well, there is the Czech genome:
Eastern Europe = 46%
Western & Central Europe = 28%
Southern Europe = 11%
Jewish Diaspora = 4%
Asia Minor = 4%
Scandinavia = 2%
Central Asia = 2%
The Czech share more similarities with Germans than Poles, but are still "eastern-oriented" as Poles. Finally they are not more "northern"- shifted than either Germans or Poles.
Do you have the data on other Slavs?

[Leto]

Scandinavians.

Ethnically French people (i.e. not Alsatians, who are Germanic; or Bretons, who are Celtic) are a SW-Euro/Mediterranean people, like Spaniards or Italians.
I don't think Nortwestern and Northeastern France is like Spain or Italy.

[Jana]

No, dear. I am afraid but you are mistaken. When we compare both the overall German and Polish genomes with biogeographic regions, it is to tell which population has more genomic affinity with Mediterranean regions.
1.) German genome:
Western & Central Europe = 42%
Eastern Europe = 16%
Scandinavia = 14%
Great Britain & Ireland = 11%
Southern Europe = 6%
Finland & Northern Siberia = 6%
Jewish Diaspora = 5%

2.) Polish genome:
Eastern Europe = 59%
Western & Central Europe = 13%
Southern Europe = 7%
Jewish Diaspora = 6%
Asia Minor = 5%
Finland and Northern Siberia = 5%
Central Asia = 3%
Scandinavia = 2%
Thus it is pretty clear, that Poles are not any more northern genetically than Germans as a whole. Mediterranean genes ( Southern Europe + Asia Minor especially to a lesser extent Jewish Diaspora) are more numerous in the Polish than the German population.

This is from geno, and those cathegories are geographic not genetic. For example lot of mediterranean ancestry is hidden in western european cathegory. :)

[Jana]

Data from MDLP K16

Germany Neolithic = 27,19% (average from 5 German regional averages)
Poland Neolithic = 22,86% (average from 4 Polish regional averages)

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Lot of Germans are actually genetically similar to Balts and Slavs (Prussian ancestry). And it is well-known fact!

[Jana]

Lot of Germans are actually genetically similar to Balts and Slavs (Prussian ancestry). And it is well-known fact!
Yes, but their average is still closer to northern/eastern France and Belgium.

There is a reason why 23andme can't separate French and German cathegories in ancestry breakdown, because they're quite similar.

[Vlatko Vukovic]

Yes, but their average is still closer to northern/eastern France and Belgium.

There is a reason why 23andme can't separate French and German cathegories in ancestry breakdown, because they're quite similar.

Maybe is, but still, Eastern Germany is full of Baltic admixture.

[Leto]

Maybe is, but still, Eastern Germany is full of Baltic admixture.
West Germany received at least 12 million people from the former Third Reich territories (Poland, Czechoslovakia, Hungary, etc.).

[Petalpusher]

Data from MDLP K16

Germany Neolithic = 27,19% (average from 5 German regional averages)
Poland Neolithic = 22,86% (average from 4 Polish regional averages)

And the average for Norway is 26.85 and Sweden 25.67. There are Swedes here who score 28 neolithic on this test, which is probably more the average when you remove the north that has a bit of siberian stuff. I don't think anybody would believe Scandinavia is more mediteranean than Poland (even for whatever that means)


Everybody is tricked by the same thing i ve noticed, there are two types of farmers, the Barcin type we refer as early neo or simply neolithic and the Zagros farmer which is similar and derived to CHG/Iran_neolithic that came at different time, through different means, later, mostly in the Bronze Age. People somehow think only one is southern and the other is something like neutral or i don't know, because the first usually fall into components named "mediterranean" or something simply called "neolthic", rather than Caucasian, caucasus etc.., when in reality it's actually the Zagros type of farmer ancestry that has the most basal substrat in it, and by quite a margin. So in a way yes even Scandinavians are more med than Poles but they have less Iran neolithic, less near east, less everything else, overall they are less basal.

[Jana]

And the average for Norway is 26.85 and Sweden 25.67. There are Swedes here who score 28 neolithic on this test, i don't think anybody would believe Scandinavia is more mediteranean than Poland (even for whatever that means)


Everybody is tricked by the same thing i ve noticed, there s two types of farmers, the Barcin type we refer as early neo or simply neolithic and the Zagros farmer which is similar and derived to CHG/Iran_neolithic that came at different time, through different means, later, mostly in the Bronze Age. People somehow think only one is southern and the other is something like neutral or i don't know, because the first usually fall into components named "mediterranean" or something simply called "neolthic", rather than Caucasian, caucasus etc.., when in reality it's actually the Zagros type of farmer ancestry that has the most basal substrat in it, and by quite a margin. So in a way yes Scandinavians are more med than Poles but they have less Iran neolithic, less near east, less everything else, overall they are less basal.

Yes. But I know that. Neolithic peaks in Sardinians, while caucasus is type of farmer ancestry middle easterners have. However I'm not quite clear what it is, since it looks like ANE mixed with natufian like ancestry.

Scandinavians are less basal than Poles but as a whole Germans are not. Poles also score more mesolithic admixture than Germans do.

[Petalpusher]

Yes. But I know that. Neolithic peaks in Sardinians, while caucasus is type of farmer ancestry middle easterners have. However I'm not quite clear what it is, since it looks like ANE mixed with natufian like ancestry.

Scandinavians are less basal than Poles but as a whole Germans are not. Poles also score more mesolithic admixture than Germans do.

They are both mainly basal+WHG or Basal+ANE in different proportions, a Palestinian is only 18% neolithic in that test, which is way less than Scandinavians (and even Poles...) This is why middle easterns score the most ANE here and actually not much neolithic. All-in for example is the most ANE guy on Apricity among the W.Eurasians, because he is very Iran_N/CHG like so lots of basal and ANE.

In mesolithic, Poles are more comparable to southern and central Germans i would say, but that's just one comparison of many that could be done.

[Jana]

They are both mainly basal+WHG or Basal+ANE in different proportions, a Palestinian is only 18% neolithic in that test, which is way less than Scandinavians (and even Poles...) This is why middle easterns score the most ANE here and actually not much neolithic. All-in for example is the most ANE guy on Apricity among the W.Eurasians, because he is very Iran_N/CHG like so lots of basal and ANE.
Agreed :)


In mesolithic, Poles are more comparable to southern and central Germans i would say, but that's just one comparison of many that could be done.

North east European = 26.22% average (Germany) vs. 31.17% average (Poland). Since this admixture peaks in Latvians/Lithuanians it should be good benchmark for mesolithicness, no ?

[Petalpusher]

Agreed :)



North east European = 26.22% average (Germany) vs. 31.17% average (Poland). Since this admixture peaks in Latvians/Lithuanians it should be good benchmark for mesolithicness, no ?

Latvians/Lithuanians are certainly some of the most mesolithic, if not the most, but they are not just that so it's always hard to tell with a modern reference, you score more what these people score than something clearly and only mesolithic . Even Baltics are no more than 60-70% mesolithic depending on how narrow you evaluate it and mesolithic is also high in some other regions, so Germans can get some of their overal mesolithic through other components. Even "neolithic" has a lot in it.

[Bobby Martnen]

I don't think Nortwestern and Northeastern France is like Spain or Italy.

Any part of France (excl. Alsace and Brittany) is much more Mediterranean than any German speaking population

[Ouistreham]

Any part of France (excl. Alsace and Brittany) is much more Mediterranean than any German speaking population
Remarkably ridiculous assumption.
Just FYI: Alsatians are hardly distinguishable from other Frenchmen, and Bretons are actually darker than the average (just like Welsh and Cornish are in the UK).

I have often seen (on that board and other fora) Anglo-ignorants assuming that Brittany —probably mainly because of its name— must have some Germanic input.
Actually, Brittany was probably the only French region that wasn't impacted by Frankish settlements, and didn't undergo any significant Saxon or Scandinavian invasion.

[Leto]

Remarkably ridiculous assumption.
Just FYI: Alsatians are hardly distinguishable from other Frenchmen, and Bretons are actually darker than the average (just like Welsh and Cornish are in the UK).
Northern France looks more like this :p
http://www.african-european.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Emmanuel-Macron_square500x500.jpg

[Petalpusher]

Remarkably ridiculous assumption.
Just FYI: Alsatians are hardly distinguishable from other Frenchmen, and Bretons are actually darker than the average (just like Welsh and Cornish are in the UK).

I ve never found a Breton genetically really northern, for some reasons they are a lot of time barely in the average maybe some closer to Normandy arent, and Alsatians overlap normaly with other eastern regions, Burgundy, Rhone, Swiss,.. even some Provencal match them in admixture.

The 2 regions that diverged more clearly from the average are the southwest, and anecdotically people with deep roots from Paris who for a lot of them have some levels of Jewish admixture, to the point many people from the capital don't even cluster in France.

http://secher.bernard.free.fr/blog/public/2015_SaintPierre_Figure6.jpg

[Ouistreham]

Northern France looks more like this :p
http://www.african-european.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Emmanuel-Macron_square500x500.jpg

Macron?
He's a mix of Northern and Southern French, i.e. subnordid meets submediterranean.
"Atlantid" is an imaginary concoction that was invented to describe individuals who mix Nordid and Mediterranean features without any sizeable Alpinid intermediate (there are some in the British Isles and Belgium), but Macron should qualify as a so-called "Atlantid".

[Leto]

Macron?
He's a mix of Northern and Southern French, i.e. subnordid meets submediterranean.
"Atlantid" is an imaginary concoction that was invented to describe individuals who mix Nordid and Mediterranean features without any sizeable Alpinid intermediate (there are some in the British Isles and Belgium), but Macron should qualify as a so-called "Atlantid".
Wiki says he's 1/4 British.

[Tong]

France

[Petalpusher]

Wiki says he's 1/4 British.

He s 1/4 northern France (Amiens) 1/4 Brit and 1/2 southwest, half Basque probably even, as his family is from Hautes-Pyrénées which is neighbour region really next to it.

[Ouistreham]

He s 1/4 northern France (Amiens) 1/4 Brit and 1/2 southwest, half Basque probably even, as his family is from Hautes-Pyrénées which is neighbour region really next to it.

1/8 English actually
http://ethnicelebs.com/emmanuel-macron

[Bobby Martnen]

Remarkably ridiculous assumption.
Just FYI: Alsatians are hardly distinguishable from other Frenchmen, and Bretons are actually darker than the average (just like Welsh and Cornish are in the UK).

I have often seen (on that board and other fora) Anglo-ignorants assuming that Brittany —probably mainly because of its name— must have some Germanic input.
Actually, Brittany was probably the only French region that wasn't impacted by Frankish settlements, and didn't undergo any significant Saxon or Scandinavian invasion.

Alsatians aren't French - they're West Germans that were conquered by France and forcibly Frenchified. They're no more French than the Irish are Anglo-Saxon because they mostly speak English now.

Bretons plot near other NW Europeans, not near French

[Jana]

Alsatians aren't French - they're West Germans that were conquered by France and forcibly Frenchified. They're no more French than the Irish are Anglo-Saxon because they mostly speak English now.

Bretons plot near other NW Europeans, not near French

It's more complex than that. Alsatians aren't genetic outliers compared with other eastern French, in fact west Germans and eastern French are closely related genetically.

[cosmoo]

Latvians/Lithuanians are certainly some of the most mesolithic, if not the most, but they are not just that so it's always hard to tell with a modern reference, you score more what these people score than something clearly and only mesolithic . Even Baltics are no more than 60-70% mesolithic depending on how narrow you evaluate it and mesolithic is also high in some other regions, so Germans can get some of their overal mesolithic through other components. Even "neolithic" has a lot in it.

Nice fanfic.

[Not a Cop]

Nice fanfic.

So what is your version?

[cosmoo]

So what is your version?
My version is pretty simple: if it walks like a dog, barks like a dog, and looks like a dog- then it is a dog. Functional proximity is of paramount importance, and Balts are not even close in taking a title Petalpusher ascribed to them.

[Not a Cop]

My version is pretty simple: if it walks like a dog, barks like a dog, and looks like a dog- then it is a dog. Functional proximity is of paramount importance, and Balts are not even close in taking a title Petalpusher ascribed to them.

So you say that due to phenotypical differences between modern Balts and Mesolithic Euros (WHGs) it's impossible for Balts to have this amount of WHG ancestry?

[cosmoo]

So you say that due to phenotypical differences between modern Balts and Mesolithic Euros (WHGs) it's impossible for Balts to have this amount of WHG ancestry?

Yes, same goes for the Basques, who, as has been shown several times before on similar threads, have effectively higher WHG than Balts.
Also, the way many of those components are interwired (one being composed significantly of other) and the way founder effects, small effective population sizes (not to be confused with total population sizes) and migrations affect their ratios rather randomly and non-functionally make their importance quite small. Of course, those who made up a whole religion based on those ("no blue eyes, not true European WHG", "get atleast 60% of Villabrunna-like on Davidski custom $$_xXx_$$ calc or u no human") will just continue sperging no matter what.

[RN97]

Yes, same goes for the Basques, who, as has been shown several times before on similar threads, have effectively higher WHG than Balts.
Also, the way many of those components are interwired (one being composed significantly of other) and the way founder effects, small effective population sizes (not to be confused with total population sizes) and migrations affect their ratios rather randomly and non-functionally make their importance quite small. Of course, those who made up a whole religion based on those ("no blue eyes, not true European WHG", "get atleast 60% of Villabrunna-like on Davidski custom $$_xXx_$$ calc or u no human") will just continue sperging no matter what.

Aren't Lithuanians pred. east baltic that's considered a reduced or altered borreby? Something of that nature? I don't get what makes Lithuanians so un-WHG like. They're not similar to the situation with Basques as they're clearly different phenotypically.

[cosmoo]

Aren't Lithuanians pred. east baltic that's considered a reduced or altered borreby? Something of that nature? I don't get what makes Lithuanians so un-WHG like. They're not similar to the situation with Basques as they're clearly different phenotypically.

Balts are a mixture of Nordic and East Baltic types, later does have UP strain, but a very dilluted and altered one, and it is far from being anything close to a "reduced Borreby" as you put it.
And I mentioned Basques for the same reason- they have similar/greater WHG levels compared to Balts, yet not a trace of unaltered Mesolithic phenotypes.