afro centeric claims latin culture and germanic is a myth

[blan]

there were some haitians on a web forum that were shocked that haiti was defined as a latin country. i explained why it was considered as such for linguistic reasons, and that though most people are not of latin racial stock that cultural, historic and linguistic reasons define it as such.

his response

There is no latin people/nation/culture/country. There was a language called Latin. There are languages derived from the vulgar latin of the roman conquerors....that's all.

For example romanians are a dacian people with a latin based language.....while spaniards are a Mediterranean people with a latin based language........northern french are a celtic and germanic people with a latin based language........the only commonality is the linguistic family branch of their language....inherited thru conquest. That family is the ITALIC family more commonly called romance/latin.

The same way icelandic, norwegian, Swedish, Danish, English, German, Dutch, flemish are part of the Germanic family of languages.

Another example is how african countries/peoples have adopted a european language thru colonization.........that does not make the french speaking senegalese latin or latino......nor the english speaking kenyan or nigerian a german/germano/germanic person.

i never made these claims but he seems to love contention...like many people here, trying to think of a good response, to say there is no latin culture or people sounds like bullshit, any suggestions?

[Hellfuhrer]

Well ,afrocentrists are butt hurt idiots that are jealous because Whites and Asians have more achievements than Sub-Saharan Africans do. They make up silly stories that cant possible true, they claim the ancient Egyptians, The Romans, The Greeks and even the Chinese were black. They also believe they could fly before the White man took away their magic powers. Arguing with an afrocentrist is like arguing with a child who believes stories he makes up are true.

[Bloodeagle]

there were some haitians on a web forum that were shocked that haiti was defined as a latin country. i explained why it was considered as such for linguistic reasons, and that though most people are not of latin racial stock that cultural, historic and linguistic reasons define it as such.

his response

There is no latin people/nation/culture/country. There was a language called Latin. There are languages derived from the vulgar latin of the roman conquerors....that's all.

For example romanians are a dacian people with a latin based language.....while spaniards are a Mediterranean people with a latin based language........northern french are a celtic and germanic people with a latin based language........the only commonality is the linguistic family branch of their language....inherited thru conquest. That family is the ITALIC family more commonly called romance/latin.

The same way icelandic, norwegian, Swedish, Danish, English, German, Dutch, flemish are part of the Germanic family of languages.

Another example is how african countries/peoples have adopted a european language thru colonization.........that does not make the french speaking senegalese latin or latino......nor the english speaking kenyan or nigerian a german/germano/germanic person.

i never made these claims but he seems to love contention...like many people here, trying to think of a good response, to say there is no latin culture or people sounds like bullshit, any suggestions?
For the record, I cannot stand the whole bunch of afrocentrist, who claim history was written by white men for white men and the blacks have had their historic achievements hijacked by the white man.
That said, I understand where this afrocentrist poster was coming from with his attack against the Latin linguistic dominator culture and the often meaningless tie between language and culture.
For some reason I do not associate much of French culture nor Romanian as being very Latin in nature, "I may be wrong", yet they are of the Romance languages.
More importantly, I believe that our current western world of laws and institutions, Germanics included, have more in common with the Latins than the ex-slaves of Haiti do, considering the wealth of African customs and creole culture that exists there.
I am curious whether or not the whole Caribbean region is considered part of Latin America. Is Jamaica with its Germanic language considered part of Germanic America?

[blan]

For the record, I cannot stand the whole bunch of afrocentrist, who claim history was written by white men for white men and the blacks have had their historic achievements hijacked by the white man.
That said, I understand where this afrocentrist poster was coming from with his attack against the Latin linguistic dominator culture and the often meaningless tie between language and culture.
For some reason I do not associate much of French culture nor Romanian as being very Latin in nature, "I may be wrong", yet they are of the Romance languages.
More importantly, I believe that our current western world of laws and institutions, Germanics included, have more in common with the Latins than the ex-slaves of Haiti do, considering the wealth of African customs and creole culture that exists there.
I am curious whether or not the whole Caribbean region is considered part of Latin America. Is Jamaica with its Germanic language considered part of Germanic America?

African-Anglo is what Jamaica and the former british isles are considered, though the last of the white Jamaicans are mainly of Germanic stock and a very small portion would have there roots to latin culture but all Jamaican Nationals keep english/Jamaican Creole as there first language. as far as latin people in Haiti yes some spanish, Italian, and some french Haitians still reside in the country and Latin influence from the spanish and french is very obvious, in the food, music, language, school system, law, government, ect.
i told them dont worry latin europe and latin america will never confuse you as one of them so dont fret it is purely technical terms for lingustic and historic reasons, then they got more angry because they feel left out and.
the conversation ended with him insulting me.
i honestly give up. they look for any excuse to argue with white people most blacks have a built in complex and will do anything to belittle a white person and contradict them just so they can feel better, i feel bad because there are blacks that are great people who can get along with people so well,
its just that people like this guy i come into contact with are a constant everyday thing. i really have lost my patients.

[blan]

For the record, I cannot stand the whole bunch of afrocentrist, who claim history was written by white men for white men and the blacks have had their historic achievements hijacked by the white man.
That said, I understand where this afrocentrist poster was coming from with his attack against the Latin linguistic dominator culture and the often meaningless tie between language and culture.
For some reason I do not associate much of French culture nor Romanian as being very Latin in nature, "I may be wrong", yet they are of the Romance languages.
More importantly, I believe that our current western world of laws and institutions, Germanics included, have more in common with the Latins than the ex-slaves of Haiti do, considering the wealth of African customs and creole culture that exists there.
I am curious whether or not the whole Caribbean region is considered part of Latin America. Is Jamaica with its Germanic language considered part of Germanic America?

with all this said though i explained to the people on this forum that latin and latino is not a racial grouping it is a linguistic/cultural grouping, purely technical because Haiti is linked to french language, the fellow claiming that there is no such things a latin people or culture, then told me i was confused of the difference of race and ethnic groups based on language and then told everyone the same thing i said that latin is a linguistic grouping based on language and that i was confused and not to listen to me, he said what i said only re worded it, i know i am a masochist. to think i could tried to have an intelligent conversation with them

[Comte Arnau]

This all comes from the typical confusion people have to distinguish race, ethnicity and identity.

But there's a point in saying Haiti is not a Latin country, not even a Latino one. The African element (physical and cultural: language, religion) is extremely prevailing even when compared to other Caribbean countries. And while French is the language in official contexts, the one spoken by the whole population is Haitian Creole. If Haiti is Latin America, then I guess we can also talk about Latin African countries.

[Óttar]

I don't care for the term Latino, Latin America, or hispanic myself. "Latinos" and "Latin" Americans have little to do with the Romans. "Hispanic" coming as it does from Hispania, the Roman name for Spain, is a misnomer, and this term in the US has basically come to mean a Spanish speaking person (mostly Mestizos). I think Mexican, Central and South Americans, should just identify themselves by the country they come from. I once knew a white girl who explained to me that because she was of Sicilian extraction, and Sicily was once under Spanish rule, she was Latina. :rolleyes2: :stop

[The Lawspeaker]

Just one word: LOL !

[blan]

This all comes from the typical confusion people have to distinguish race, ethnicity and identity.

But there's a point in saying Haiti is not a Latin country, not even a Latino one. The African element (physical and cultural: language, religion) is extremely prevailing even when compared to other Caribbean countries. And while French is the language in official contexts, the one spoken by the whole population is Haitian Creole. If Haiti is Latin America, then I guess we can also talk about Latin African countries.

85-95 percent of Haitian kreyol/creole is rooted in french and even has spanish and other latin influence, the african words are much less than the French.
so still Haitian Kreyol is still a latin based creole.
African customs live on, Haitian Vodou((fused with Catholic tradition)) is african based, very few foods can be traced to african roots, and some music influence mainly within drum can be traced to african influence,
but most music such as compas, zouk, orchestra, jazz, music has just as much latin/spanish influence and european influence as african if not more.
art such as wood cut and and painting has more african influence but many artists study in paris and the usa so traditional french and european styles are prevalent but yes african often wins out in art.
food is more spanish and french influenced than african, buildings that are worth something are more french influenced than anything, the buildings that are celebrated that is, french school system french governmental system, french style courts/law my point is european culture has had a equal/ in some areas more important role than african, the reason why so many Haitians reject european or other latin influence is because of there hate for non blacks. religion wise, there are more christians than vodou i think at this point in History but no doubt in many regions vodou does dominate.

[blan]

I don't care for the term Latino, Latin America, or hispanic myself. "Latinos" and "Latin" Americans have little to do with the Romans. "Hispanic" coming as it does from Hispania, the Roman name for Spain, is a misnomer, and this term in the US has basically come to mean a Spanish speaking person (mostly Mestizos). I think Mexican, Central and South Americans, should just identify themselves by the country they come from. I once knew a white girl who explained to me that because she was of Sicilian extraction, and Sicily was once under Spanish rule, she was Latina. :rolleyes2: :stop

well the confusion and debate on these words latin, latino, latina, hispanic are being used by many different people for many different reasons, even the word spanish is used by mix breeds from puerto rico and DR and south and central maerica as a racial classification many white americans think that spanish equals mixed breed, i am talking about linguistics not race,
spanish is not a race it is a culture of people and nation in europe and the only people i think who should be able to call themselves spanish are people from spain or those who have there direct roots from spain,
hispanic simply means spanish speaking plain and simple it is a linguistic term,
latin, latino, latina are also confused, i think that true latin culture is also of europe but again it can be a grouping term based on language,
honestly i would not count any black ((unless they were born and raised in europe)) as a latin or a person of latin background they are not part of that blood line but the fact remains latin culture has done more for afro french/spanish speaking nations than there african heritage has

[blan]

regardless this is all meaningless my question and frustration came from the statement that this afro centric made that there is no latin based culture or people, if told blacks that there was no such thing as african culture or people and that african culture was a myth they would be up in arms about it,

[Comte Arnau]

85-95 percent of Haitian kreyol/creole is rooted in french and even has spanish and other latin influence, the african words are much less than the French.
so still Haitian Kreyol is still a latin based creole.
African customs live on, Haitian Vodou((fused with Catholic tradition)) is african based, very few foods can be traced to african roots, and some music influence mainly within drum can be traced to african influence,
but most music such as compas, zouk, orchestra, jazz, music has just as much latin/spanish influence and european influence as african if not more.
art such as wood cut and and painting has more african influence but many artists study in paris and the usa so traditional french and european styles are prevalent but yes african often wins out in art.
food is more spanish and french influenced than african, buildings that are worth something are more french influenced than anything, the buildings that are celebrated that is, french school system french governmental system, french style courts/law my point is european culture has had a equal/ in some areas more important role than african, the reason why so many Haitians reject european or other latin influence is because of there hate for non blacks. religion wise, there are more christians than vodou i think at this point in History but no doubt in many regions vodou does dominate.

A creole is a creole, regardless of the origin of the words. The grammar changes completely. By that logic, one would have to include languages from Asia and the Pacific in the Latin family too...

But sure, if what you mean is that there are more obvious 'Latin' elements in Haiti than in, say, Bhutan, then yeah. For the same reason we should consider Angola a Latin country too.

[Comte Arnau]

regardless this is all meaningless my question and frustration came from the statement that this afro centric made that there is no latin based culture or people, if told blacks that there was no such thing as african culture or people and that african culture was a myth they would be up in arms about it,

What does Latin culture exactly mean? And what is African culture?

[Ibericus]

What does Latin culture exactly mean? And what is African culture?
African culture = Culture from Africa
Latin cultura = Culture from Latin (European) countries

[blan]

What does Latin culture exactly mean? And what is African culture?

good point this can be a abstract subject, african culture does not mean black culture, north africans such as many egyptians, moroccans, ect are not black and have little to nothing to do with black culture, and even sub saharan africa changes based on each country you go to, ivory coast is not the same as zimbabwe, and rawanda is different than libera, and is different than the congo, so yes there is no one form of african culture, but we as people of European stock have big differences based on our regions and countries as well, white americans are different than northern europeans and they are different from the meds, the greeks are different from italians ect, but if i made a statement like (( there is no such thing as European people or culture it is a myth)) then that would cause a reaction with people i am sure.

[Comte Arnau]

Then better talk about cultures. A cultural unit needs two basic things: a set of relevant common elements and a community of people who are characterized by/identified with them.

[SaxonCeorl]

He sounds correct to me; there's nothing remotely 'Latin' about Haiti.


regardless this is all meaningless my question and frustration came from the statement that this afro centric made that there is no latin based culture or people, if told blacks that there was no such thing as african culture or people and that african culture was a myth they would be up in arms about it,

From the way you presented it, it doesn't sound like he's claiming that (whoever you're thinking of) don't have a culture, he seems to be saying that there may be Italian culture or Spanish culture or even Mediterranean culture, but no "Latin culture" because Latin is merely a language. It all boils down to semantics to me.

[blan]

[QUOTE=SaxonCeorl;309462]He sounds correct to me; there's nothing remotely 'Latin' about Haiti.

i think you need to learn the history of Haiti before you make such statements, latin culture was on the island of hispaniola long before black culture , and maybe learn the influences of Haitian music such as ochestra and compas both are rooted in latin styles of music, and learn the Language structure of Haitian Kreyol as well as the official language of French, as well as creole foods, that are rooted on spanish and french cooking traditions, as well as the catholic faith, these are all influenced by latin culture

[blan]

A creole is a creole, regardless of the origin of the words. The grammar changes completely. By that logic, one would have to include languages from Asia and the Pacific in the Latin family too...

But sure, if what you mean is that there are more obvious 'Latin' elements in Haiti than in, say, Bhutan, then yeah. For the same reason we should consider Angola a Latin country too.

yes a creole is its own language i agree English is just as much of a creole, it certainly does not make it french or latin because it has been influenced as such but is still a creole, it is more germanic than anything but it has heavy influence of non germanic language, does that make english non germanic?

[Comte Arnau]

the influences of Haitian music such as ochestra and compas both are rooted in latin styles of music, and learn the Language structure of Haitian Kreyol as well as the official language of French, as well as creole foods, that are rooted on spanish and french cooking traditions, as well as the catholic faith, these are all influenced by latin cultures,

It seems to me that culture is that vague term people associate to either a local population, an ethnic group or a whole civilization, according to what is needed for their arguments. What is 'Spanish cooking tradition', when there is not one single tradition in Spain?

As I said, I guess you must consider Sub-Saharian African countries colonized by France, Portugal and Spain as Latin countries too.


yes a creole is its own language i agree English is just as much of a creole, it certainly does not make it french or latin because it has been influenced as such but is still a creole, it is more germanic than anything but it has heavy influence of non germanic language, does that make english non germanic?

English is a special case indeed, but it's not a creole the way creoles are classified.

[Curtis24]

"Latin American" culture is actually a synthesis of European and Amerindian culture and beliefs.

That being said, I believe most culture is racially based so I agree that Haiti is more "African" - or at least, something different - culturally than other Latin American countries. Just like AFrican-Americans in the U.S. have a much different culture than whites.

[Ibericus]

It seems to me that culture is that vague term people associate to either a local population, an ethnic group or a whole civilization, according to what is needed for their arguments. What is 'Spanish cooking tradition', when there is not one single tradition in Spain?

As I said, I guess you must consider Sub-Saharian African countries colonized by France, Portugal and Spain as Latin countries too.
But according to this there would be no catalan culture because for example the culture of La Vall d'Aran is different than culture of Barcelona...When you I see spanish culture I refer to all the cultures of Spain. European culture, the cultures of EUrope, so on.

[Aviane]

afro centeric people can be very extreme, well some of them at least when they claim everthing historical.

[Piparskeggr]

Historical footnote: The Latins were a tribe in the area of the Italian peninsula called Latium, which includes past and present day Rome.

Their grouping of villages and clans were known as the Latin League, which contended with both the Etruscans and Romans for control of the area.

One could say that the Latins were the overall winners, though absorbed into the Roman Collective, as theirs is the language, which survives.

Vampire of Venice (nee Roman Queen) would likely have a better take on this.

[Comte Arnau]

But according to this there would be no catalan culture because for example the culture of La Vall d'Aran is different than culture of Barcelona...

The Aranese are politically Catalonians, but no, they are not Catalans, ethnolinguistically speaking. They are Catalonian Gascons, if you want me to put it that way. They decided to remain in Catalonia by themselves. Fortunately for them, because otherwise they wouldn't have preserved their language and culture. Nowadays Aranese is the third official language of Catalonia, btw, even if only spoken by some 4,000 people. Spain should learn something from this.

That is why I prefer to associate culture with specific ethnic groups, it's much simpler and makes much more sense. But obviously culture is a very vague term, so it can work in many different ways. North-Western Pyrenean Catalans are closer to other Pyreneans in many aspects than to coastal Catalans, for instance. Mediterranean Catalans have traditionally had a cuisine that was closer in some aspects to that of other Meds than to the cuisine of North-Western Iberians. Weather and availability of resources, geography and trade routes, there are many particularities that make areas of different ethnicities share a common way of life. Whether that can be called common culture or should be called with a different name, I don't know.

[SaxonCeorl]

[QUOTE=SaxonCeorl;309462]He sounds correct to me; there's nothing remotely 'Latin' about Haiti.

i think you need to learn the history of Haiti before you make such statements, latin culture was on the island of hispaniola, and maybe learn the influences of Haitian music such as ochestra and compas both are rooted in latin styles of music, and learn the Language structure of Haitian Kreyol as well as the official language of French, as well as creole foods, that are rooted on spanish and french cooking traditions, as well as the catholic faith, these are all influenced by latin cultures,

Yeah, none of that has anything to do with Latin.

[blan]

It seems to me that culture is that vague term people associate to either a local population, an ethnic group or a whole civilization, according to what is needed for their arguments. What is 'Spanish cooking tradition', when there is not one single tradition in Spain?

regardless the cooking styles were brought from europe not from Africa in most dishes served in most parts of the Caribbean in the case of Haiti they are not influenced by a Germanic style and Germanic culture varies as well but that does not mean that Germanic people and culture are a myth simply becuase there are differences. middle eastern culture/arab varies greatly but few people would go as far to say that middle eastern culture is a myth they certainly have a style to there culture within music, food, art, clothing regardless of the fact that it changes nation to nation, but there are Historic and contemporary definitions of latin peoples, foods, and culture.



As I said, I guess you must consider Sub-Saharian African countries colonized by France, Portugal and Spain as Latin countries too.

i would based on linguistics and historical/cultural influence. it does not mean i wold say ((oh yes they are just like europe)) it means the imprint is very obvious.


English is a special case indeed, but it's not a creole the way creoles are classified.
regardless the cooking styles were brought from europe not from Africa in most dishes served in most parts of the Caribbean in the case of Haiti they are not influenced by a Germanic style and Germanic culture varies as well but that does not mean that Germanic people and culture are a myth simply becuase there are differences. middle eastern culture/arab varies greatly but few people would go as far to say that middle eastern culture is a myth they certainly have a style to there culture within music, food, art, clothing regardless of the fact that it changes nation to nation, but there are Historic and contemporary definitions of latin peoples, foods, and culture.



yes you are right about english but it is the same principle a language was reconstructed by meshing other languages creating something new, there are some creoles that are not that hard to understand and are well rooted to there original roots and some can sound so different it may seem there is nothing left in common,

[blan]

"Latin American" culture is actually a synthesis of European and Amerindian culture and beliefs.

That being said, I believe most culture is racially based so I agree that Haiti is more "African" - or at least, something different - culturally than other Latin American countries. Just like AFrican-Americans in the U.S. have a much different culture than whites.

but an american black is still a Anglo based on the language he speaks, he would not be classified as a Hispanic, he would be classified based on his or her first language .

and i am aware that when people say latin american they mean spanish/admerindian the same as when many americans and hispanics use the word spanish to describe non spanish Hispanics, but i am more concerned where the origions of language and culture are really from and not what the US census office uses to sound PC. honestly i think its insane that people actually use the word spanish to describe a nativo mexican or a mixed dominican, there is a whole generation of whites and mixed hispanics that are unaware of who the true spanish are.

[blan]

[QUOTE=blan;309468]

Yeah, none of that has anything to do with Latin.

look up what latin music is, forgive the sin of using wikipedia links but it gets the point to you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_American_music

look up latin people of europe and latin america

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latins

and heck just look up latin food/latin cooking

so yes latin europe brought many influence to the americas, i was not speaking of the dead language of latin, i am sure you are aware of this
if we are getting back to linguistics then yes again the language is based on Latin based romance languages, there is a culture that is described as latin both in the americas and in europe,

[blan]

Historical footnote: The Latins were a tribe in the area of the Italian peninsula called Latium, which includes past and present day Rome.

Their grouping of villages and clans were known as the Latin League, which contended with both the Etruscans and Romans for control of the area.

One could say that the Latins were the overall winners, though absorbed into the Roman Collective, as theirs is the language, which survives.

Vampire of Venice (nee Roman Queen) would likely have a better take on this.

i am well aware as to the latins in a historical text but i am speaking in contemporary both in Europe and in the americas,

[CelticTemplar]

Well ,afrocentrists are butt hurt idiots that are jealous because Whites and Asians have more achievements than Sub-Saharan Africans do. They make up silly stories that cant possible true, they claim the ancient Egyptians, The Romans, The Greeks and even the Chinese were black. They also believe they could fly before the White man took away their magic powers. Arguing with an afrocentrist is like arguing with a child who believes stories he makes up are true.

Bingo, you get two cookies.

[billErobreren]

Negroids are a sad, SAD bunch.:loco: truly pathetic riddled with inferiority complex whom have accomplished nothing & lacking evidence never seem to shut up about how every race snatched everything from them.:grumpy: I swear, we should have left those sorry loincloth wearing bastards to cannibalize & rape each other in that wasteland called Africa. :mad:

[Dario Argento]

My two cents on the issue: Haiti is not LATIN AMERICA. There are more factors supporting my belief than factors contradicting it. Haiti is a predominantly Congoid country where most of the population, at the time of independence, had not more than 20 years living there and a lot were brought directly from Africa, they were not even Creole Congoids like most African Americans or Blacks in Brazil or the rest of Hispanic America. Haiti's majority Negro population had no ties to the land and as many were brought directly from the bush, the country became very pure African in beliefs, costumes, race and behavior. Even crossing from the Dominican Republic (Hispanic America's blackest place) to Haiti is like entering another dimension. Haitians have this uppity and animalesque, out of the jungle look most bush Africans have. Haitians lack the significant Native Taino and Spanish admixture the Dominicans have.

Haiti's independence was a cross between a zombie attack and a pogrom. And when I say zombie attack I really mean it, the mostly unharmed black slave population lynched their whole white population like if it was Resident Evil III. Haiti has been de-estabilized since, since it was mostly populated by incompetent and illiterate Africans.

Nowadays I'd truly call Haiti as "Afro-America" rather than Caribbean and/or Latin America. It's truly a piece of African land put on the Americas.

[Boudica]

Well ,afrocentrists are butt hurt idiots that are jealous because Whites and Asians have more achievements than Sub-Saharan Africans do. They make up silly stories that cant possible true, they claim the ancient Egyptians, The Romans, The Greeks and even the Chinese were black. They also believe they could fly before the White man took away their magic powers. Arguing with an afrocentrist is like arguing with a child who believes stories he makes up are true.

Those are sadly not the only ridiculous stories that they have, I've heard them claiming that "african americans" are "god's chosen people for the new Israel, the US", and Obama's lovely pastor said in one of his disgusting rants that "Jesus was a black man, and the white man, the Romans killed him". LOL.. VERY amusing..

[Albion]

It just goes to show how very little these dimwits know. The worst form of Afrocentrism is when they try to claim Greco-Roman or Barbarian civilizations as their own and that white people infiltrated these systems and bred the blacks out. Fucking thieving retards, now they want to knick our history as well. :mad::mad:

[The Journeyman]

This cracked me up. There are tons of videos like this all over youtube. :p

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