I don't feel Iranic anymore

[Myanthropologies]

I don't have anything to do with the proto-Iranics, they were white and I'm not. I don't have anything to do with Kurds or Persians either, genetically, apparently. They seem to have dibs on being "real iranics" in modern day.

When I grew up and before I took a DNA test, I used to feel very ethnically close to Persians and sort of ethnically close to Kurds. After taking a DNA test, I feel like a fake Iranic or knock off Iranic. Well, it wasn't just taking my dna test that makes me feel that way, it's what has been said to me on anthropology forums over the last year. Kurds and Persians on anthropology forums like to distance me from them, group me with Punjabis and even Gujaratis sometimes, and claim that they are closer to Southern Europeans than to me, or are an extension of mediterranian people. Or they will say they are west eurasian and that I'm not. It's kind of weird, because Persians and Kurds in person try to relate to me a lot and definitely consider me the same race as them and consider pashtuns similar to them in looks, but the ones on anthropology forums don't want anything to do with me, and I bet they don't want anything to do with me even more so now after viewing my ancestry results.

I try to tell myself that DNA doesn't matter, but it's hard to tell myself that sometimes even if I know it's very true, because everyone likes to put people in boxes and categories based on these numbers and think that they can just change a person's thought process and identity by one forum post.

The only South-Central Asian "Iranic" people that west iranics on forum boards seem to care about are Pamiri Tajiks, because of their association with Scythians, yet they even try to distance me from Pamiris. Pashtuns are just tossed aside as some pedophilic iranicized punjabis, and it further makes me feel like a fake iranic. It even makes me feel less close to the Persians and Kurds I know in person (ethnically).

[catgeorge]

What?

[wvwvw]

https://youtu.be/Du_YaEXVv2Y

[Demon Revival]

It's because you're a twink with dyed hair and gay western mannerisms. If you were to be a bearded taliban with a turban who follows trival laws all the Persians and Kurds would revere you like a god.

[Myanthropologies]

What?

Don't talk to autistic people like that, it's rude.

[Myanthropologies]

It's because you're a twink with dyed hair and gay western mannerisms. If you were to be a bearded taliban with a turban who follows trival laws all the Persians and Kurds would revere you like a god.

What are you even talking about?

[TheForeigner]

Well average non-MENA people consider all these groups as Middle Eastern, if that helps. They don't know there is a difference between Persians and Afghanis.

[de Burgh II]

Genetically speaking, you would be an Eastern extension of the plethora Of Iranic tribes inhabiting Central and West Asia.

Nevertheless, the key is not to get overly attached to such ethnicities. Meaning that, we don't control whatever ethnicity a person is born into.

Which is why it should be imperative to not let one's emotions get too involved in what happens on the internet. At the end of the day, they are merely the opinions of others; they only have "meaning" when we let it get to us on a personal level.

[Myanthropologies]

Genetically speaking, you would be an Eastern extension of the plethora Of Iranic tribes inhabiting Central and West Asia.

Nevertheless, the key is not to get overly attached to such ethnicities. Meaning that, we don't control whatever ethnicity a person is born into.

Which is why it should be imperative to not let one's emotions get too involved in what happens on the internet. At the end of the day, they are merely the opinions of others; they only have "meaning" when we let it get to us on a personal level.

Of course I agree with that, I just wish other people thought like that, too.

[Voskos]

me neither, ever since I scored some slavic on them calcs.

[Hadouken]

wtf are you talking :lol:

which members said such things to you ? I have not seen any kurdish members at least saying such stuff to you to give you any reason for these thoughts and this thread

and you are very iranic . iranic means having ancestry from androvono central asia indoiranian people which you do . what you have not understood in the past is that an "iranic" race or ethnicity does not exist and that iranic people are diverse and have their own admixtures etc. .

[Herr Abubu]

Man, shut the fuck up.

[Herr Abubu]

Man, shut the fuck up. This shit is embarrassing to read. You aren't "Iranic" because you don't speak the language and have nothing to do with these people culturally. You're yet another American kid who thinks he has some interesting identity because he hyphenates his ancestry to Afghan-American or something like that. You're just a rootless American like Sikeliot who thinks an ethnicity is something like a purse.

[Herr Abubu]

Man, shut the fuck up. This shit is embarrassing to read. You aren't "Iranic" because you don't speak the language and have nothing to do with these people culturally. You're yet another American kid who projects his American mentality onto the question of identity and treats it like something equivalent to a purse or some other shit.

[Peterski]

I don't have anything to do with the proto-Iranics, they were white and I'm not. I don't have anything to do with Kurds or Persians either, genetically, apparently. They seem to have dibs on being "real iranics" in modern day.

When I grew up and before I took a DNA test, I used to feel very ethnically close to Persians and sort of ethnically close to Kurds. After taking a DNA test, I feel like a fake Iranic or knock off Iranic. Well, it wasn't just taking my dna test that makes me feel that way, it's what has been said to me on anthropology forums over the last year. Kurds and Persians on anthropology forums like to distance me from them, group me with Punjabis and even Gujaratis sometimes, and claim that they are closer to Southern Europeans than to me, or are an extension of mediterranian people. Or they will say they are west eurasian and that I'm not. It's kind of weird, because Persians and Kurds in person try to relate to me a lot and definitely consider me the same race as them and consider pashtuns similar to them in looks, but the ones on anthropology forums don't want anything to do with me, and I bet they don't want anything to do with me even more so now after viewing my ancestry results.

I try to tell myself that DNA doesn't matter, but it's hard to tell myself that sometimes even if I know it's very true, because everyone likes to put people in boxes and categories based on these numbers and think that they can just change a person's thought process and identity by one forum post.

The only South-Central Asian "Iranic" people that west iranics on forum boards seem to care about are Pamiri Tajiks, because of their association with Scythians, yet they even try to distance me from Pamiris. Pashtuns are just tossed aside as some pedophilic iranicized punjabis, and it further makes me feel like a fake iranic. It even makes me feel less close to the Persians and Kurds I know in person (ethnically).

Don't worry, you can be part of Slavic people. :grouphug:

[Peterski]

Kurds and Persians on anthropology forums like to distance me from them, group me with Punjabis and even Gujaratis sometimes, and claim that they are closer to Southern Europeans than to me, or are an extension of mediterranian people.

Fuck Mediterranian people. You can be a honorary Slav. :grouphug:

[Herr Abubu]

Man, shut the fuck up. This shit is embarrassing to read. You aren't "Iranic" because you don't speak the language and have nothing to do with these people culturally, not because of this genotard bs. You're yet another American kid who projects his American mentality onto the question of identity and treats it like something equivalent to a purse or some other shit.

[Dandelion]

You should embrace the Helleno-Buddhist past of Afghanistan.

[jatt]

one of the reason why i am not taking DNA test.. what if instead of Jatt i turned out some iranic and shit... End of the day we are what we are born as. Noone care about genetics in real life.

[Pahli]

Of course we're not like the early Indo-Iranians, but if all IE groups were genetically similar to their ancestors there would be a majority of white people now in the world xD

Also it doesn't matter anyway, IMO being Iranian is more about culture, linguistics and such.

[Hadouken]

wtf are you talking again ? :D

I havent seen any Kurdish member saying such things to you and I dont know what the problem is right now . you are making problems where there arent any .

and you ARE Iranic . part of your ancestry comes from central asia Androvono IndoIranian people . your ethnicity speaks an iranic language . so you are Iranic . however you were just incorrect in the assumption that an uniform iranic race/ethnicity exists ...it doesnt . but only because of that it doesnt mean that you are not iranic . so put Iranic in your profile again now :cool:

[Pahli]

You don't need to be white to be Iranic lmfao, I'm barely Iranic if you look at my haplogroups and NE. Euro admix. :lol:

[RN97]

The Proto–Indo-Iranians were the descendants of the Indo-European Sintashta culture and the subsequent Andronovo culture, located at the Eurasian steppe that borders the Ural River on the west, the Tian Shan on the east.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians

Genetics show those two cultures to be white even by modern standards. I actually didn't know that, but they must have mixed with the locals quite quickly considering the depiction of the ancient persians as brown.
http://i.imgur.com/EK93S8A.jpg
Then again, you have shit like this:
http://i.imgur.com/PrQ9Gui.jpg
Sassanid floor mosaic detail from the palace of Shapur I.
IDK, the people that brought the indo-Iranian language were white, but IDK how white they were for much longer after that. Pashtuns do have ANE levels similar to proto-Iranics, but they had much more European HG-related ancestry.

[kingjohn]

you score 16% indo -iranian in dna land
you are iranic don't worry :)

[kingjohn]

you score 16% indo-iranian in dna land
you are iranic do not worry

[Hadouken]

test test

ok seems to work again

here my response :


wtf are you talking again ? :D

I havent seen any Kurdish member saying such things to you and I dont know what the problem is right now . you are making problems where there arent any .

and you ARE Iranic . part of your ancestry comes from central asia Androvono IndoIranian people . your ethnicity speaks an iranic language . so you are Iranic . however you were just incorrect in the assumption that an uniform iranic race/ethnicity exists ...it doesnt . but only because of that it doesnt mean that you are not iranic . so put Iranic in your profile again now :cool:

[Karol Klačansky]

Man, shut the fuck up. This shit is embarrassing to read. You aren't "Iranic" because you don't speak the language and have nothing to do with these people culturally, not because of this genotard bs. You're yet another American kid who projects his American mentality onto the question of identity and treats it like something equivalent to a purse or some other shit.
And what are you lol? Saying DNA has nothing to do with ethnicity is like saying sex has nothing to do with gender.

[Kelmendasi]

You don't need to be white to be Iranic lmfao, I'm barely Iranic if you look at my haplogroups and NE. Euro admix. :lol:
Your Ydna haplogroup is probably from the same clade as the one found among the Scytho-Sarmatian samples so it is related to Iranics but it isn't a classic Indo-European/Indo-Iranian haplogroup but still found among them though

[Wanderer]

Man, shut the fuck up. This shit is embarrassing to read. You aren't "Iranic" because you don't speak the language and have nothing to do with these people culturally, not because of this genotard bs. You're yet another American kid who projects his American mentality onto the question of identity and treats it like something equivalent to a purse or some other shit.

Man, shut the fuck up. How many duplicates of the same post are you going to publish?

[wvwvw]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Iranians

Genetics show those two cultures to be white even by modern standards. I actually didn't know that, but they must have mixed with the locals quite quickly considering the depiction of the ancient persians as brown.
http://i.imgur.com/EK93S8A.jpg
Then again, you have shit like this:
http://i.imgur.com/PrQ9Gui.jpg
Sassanid floor mosaic detail from the palace of Shapur I.
IDK, the people that brought the indo-Iranian language were white, but IDK how white they were for much longer after that. Pashtuns do have ANE levels similar to proto-Iranics, but they had much more European HG-related ancestry.

Persian came from Greek when they were conquered by the Mycenean Greeks when Perseas came to Persia in 1340 BC and formed the Archemeneid Dynasty hence the mythology of Persians being descendants of Perseus.

Read what Herodotus has to say about the Archemenians. The Persians concurred with Herodotus. They even used the prophesy that a descendent of Perseus would conquer Lydia as justification for their defeat of Croesus.

And Sanskrit came from Persian when Persians (and later the Greeks) conquered the Indians.

[Kelmendasi]

Persian came from Greek when they were conquered by the Mycenean Greeks when Perses came to Persia in 1340 BC and formed the Archemeneid Dynasty hence the mythology that Persians being descendants of Perseus.

Read what Herodotus has to say about the Archemenians. The Persians concurred with Herodotus. They even used the prophesy that a descendent of Perseus would conquer Lydia as justification for their defeat of Croesus.

And Sanskrit came from Persian from when Persians (and later Greeks) conquered the Indians.
They don't though, they come from proto-Indo-Europeans who migrated eastward to form the Indo-Iranians and then the Iranians. This was way before Greeks started forming as an ethnogenesis. Also Sanskrit is Indo-Aryan and not part of the Iranic languages so it cant come from them

[wvwvw]

They don't though, they come from proto-Indo-Europeans who migrated eastward to form the Indo-Iranians and then the Iranians. This was way before Greeks started forming as an ethnogenesis. Also Sanskrit is Indo-Aryan and not part of the Iranic languages so it cant come from them
The Greeks existed long before the Hellenes, Greek was spoken in the Greek peninsula from at least 2000 BC. To Egyptians, Hittites and others the Greeks were known by their tribal names, Acheans, Argives, Pelasgians, Ionians etc.

The Steppe people that conquered the Indians did not speak an IE language. The Indo-European theory of a proto Indo-European language is rejected by half the linguistic community, and most of those who who promote it come either from former communist Slavic or former nazi Germanic countries.

There is not even any evidence of such an indo-europran civilisation, no buildings, no pottery, metalwork, nothing in their alleged homeland on the plains of Russia, but there is plenty of evidence for trade across the whole of Europe.

Sanskrit is part of the Indo-Iranian family of languages. The Iranians traded with India for centuries and conquered it in the time of Cyrus. This resulted in Dravidian being replaced by Indo-Persian as the language of commerce but no populations moved. Sanskrit became the written language of the rulers and then spread to the people through the written holy books.

[Kelmendasi]

The Greeks existed long before the Hellenes, Greek was spoken in the Greek peninsula from at least 2000 BC. To Egyptians, Hittites and others the Greeks were known by their tribal names, Acheans, Argives, Pelasgians, Ionians etc.

The Steppe people that conquered the Indians did not speak an IE language. The Indo-European theory of a proto Indo-European language is rejected by half the linguistic community, and most of those who who promote it come either from former communist Slavic or former nazi Germanic countries.

There is not even any evidence of such an indo-europran civilisation, no buildings, no pottery, metalwork, nothing in their alleged homeland on the plains of Russia, but there is plenty of evidence for trade across the whole of Europe.

Sanskrit is part of the Indo-Iranian family of languages. The Iranians traded with India for centuries and conquered it in the time of Cyrus. This resulted in Dravidian being replaced by Indo-Persian as the language of commerce but no populations moved. Sanskrit became the written language of the rulers and then spread to the people through the written holy books.
What are you on about? Indo-European theories are the most accepted linguistics theories by far to the point that nowadays it is considered fact, it is also supported by genetics also there were Indo-European cultures from the Steppe like Yamnaya, Andronovo etc. Sanskrit is part of Indo-Aryan which does come from Indo-Iranian but not Iranian itself which is spoken by Persians. Greeks come from Indo-Europeans btw

The steppe people that conquered India were Indo-Aryan Indo-Europeans btw

[wvwvw]

They don't though, they come from proto-Indo-Europeans who migrated eastward to form the Indo-Iranians and then the Iranians.

There is no evidence whatsoever that the Steppe people (R1a, R1b) spoke an IE language. Italo-Celts, Slavs and Germanics NEVER belonged to the Indo-European language group until Roman times. Just look at the Basques who belong 99% to the Steppe R1b linage, who's language was not IE.

All Indo-European languages evolved from a proto-Hittite-Pelasgian language spoken in 3000 BC throughout Anatolia and Greece and it was very similar to proto-Greek and was spread by contact with that civilisation from 2000 BC onwards.

The Hittites soon lost their original language due to Assyrian domination after the fall of the Mittani (the real ancestors of Abraham) and what was left was completely replaced by Turkish.

The proto-Germanic (I ydna) spoke something very similar to Sardinian and the Italo-Celts who formed the Iberian group spoke something very similar to Basque. All of these groups lost their original language because they became subjects of the technologically more advanced Pelasgian civilisation, then the Mycenaean's, and then the Romans.

[Kelmendasi]

There is no evidence whatsoever that the Steppe people (R1a, R1b) spoke an IE language. Italo-Celts, Slavs and Germanics NEVER belonged to the Indo-European language group until Roman times. Just look at the Basques who belong 99% to the Steppe R1b linage, who's language was not IE.

All Indo-European languages evolved from a proto-Hittite-Pelasgian language spoken in 4000 BC throughoutAnatolia and Greece and it was very similar to proto-Greek and was spread by contact with that civilisation from 2000 BC onwards.

The Hittites soon lost their original language due to Assyrian domination after the fall of the Mittani (the real ancestors of Abraham) and what was left was completely replaced by Turkish.

The proto-Germanic (I ydna) spoke something very similar to Sardinian and the Italo-Celts who formed the Iberian group spoke something very similar to Basque. All of these groups lost their original language because they became subjects of the technologically more advanced Pelasgian civilisation, then the Mycenaean's, and then the Romans.
There is though, all of those languages come from the same language which is now a fact and not a theory. As for Basques there is something called genetic drift. Sardinian is a romance language btw which in turn is Indo-European. Germanics are mainly R1b but also I1 due to founder effect and assimilation of natives by Indo-Europeans. Btw Pelasgian may not even be a Indo-European language. Stop trying to promote your propaganda and belief that everything is Greek, this is actual fact and not myth like your belief, you even believe that Phoenicians were Hellenic when in fact they were Semitic speakers and not Indo-European Greeks. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages

[wvwvw]

What are you on about? Indo-European theories are the most accepted linguistics theories by far to the point that nowadays it is considered fact, it is also supported by genetics also there were Indo-European cultures from the Steppe like Yamnaya, Andronovo etc. Sanskrit is part of Indo-Aryan which does come from Indo-Iranian but not Iranian itself which is spoken by Persians. Greeks come from Indo-Europeans btw

The steppe people that conquered India were Indo-Aryan Indo-Europeans btw

LOL.... All these well established linguists are Germanic and Slavic. Germanic and Slavic linguistics was concocted form political ends by the forerunners of the nazis and the Communists. Its not surprising then that they would pick a bunch of nomads from the Russian steeps as the ancestors of the PIE although all aracolgical evidence place Civilastion and Argriculte in Greece and Anatolia/middle east. How the hell can these nomadic so-called Aryans have introduced agricultural terms in the so-called NON EXISTENT proto-Indo-European langue when they were hunter gatherers and not a shred of evidence showing them possessing agriculture.

The Greeks do not originate from the Steppe only. Like I have said many times before they came from Anatolia (Minoans, but evolved in Greece) Cyprus and Iberia. The Greeks were the only group of mixed linages up until Roman times. Prior to 1200 BC the Celts were a single undiluted tribal grouping carrying the R1b lineage who came from Iberia. Prior to 200 BC the Germanics were single undiluted tribal grouping carrying the I lineage. Prior to 600 BC the Slavs undiluted tribal grouping carrying the R1a lineage who came from Central Asia and originallyspoke a Dravidic-Altaic-Uralic dialect etc.

[Kelmendasi]

LOL.... All these well established linguists are Germanic and Slavic. Germanic and Slavic linguistics was concocted form political ends by the forerunners of the nazis and the Communists. Its not surprising then that they would pick a bunch of nomads from the Russian steeps as the ancestors of the PIE although all aracolgical evidence place Civilastion and Argriculte in Greece and Anatolia/middle east. How the hell can these nomadic so-called Aryans have introduced agricultural terms in the so-called NON EXISTENT proto-Indo-European langue when they were hunter gatherers and not a shred of evidence showing them possessing agriculture.

The Greeks do not originate from the Steppe only. Like I have said many times before they came from Anatolia (Minoans, but evolved in Greece) Cyprus and Iberia. The Greeks were the only group of mixed linages up until Roman times. Prior to 1200 BC the Celts were a single undiluted tribal grouping carrying the R1b lineage who came from Iberia. Prior to 200 BC the Germanics were single undiluted tribal grouping carrying the I lineage. Prior to 600 BC the Slavs undiluted tribal grouping carrying the R1a lineage who came from Central Asia and originallyspoke a Dravidic-Altaic-Uralic dialect etc.
:picard1:

[Herr Abubu]

And what are you lol? Saying DNA has nothing to do with ethnicity is like saying sex has nothing to do with gender.

What comes first: DNA or language and culture?

[Herr Abubu]

Man, shut the fuck up. How many duplicates of the same post are you going to publish?

It's the forum glitching you massive dago moron.

[wvwvw]

There is though, all of those languages come from the same language which is now a fact and not a theory. As for Basques there is something called genetic drift. Sardinian is a romance language btw which in turn is Indo-European. Germanics are mainly R1b but also I1 due to founder effect and assimilation of natives by Indo-Europeans. Btw Pelasgian may not even be a Indo-European language. Stop trying to promote your propaganda and belief that everything is Greek, this is actual fact and not myth like your belief, you even believe that Phoenicians were Hellenic when in fact they were Semitic speakers and not Indo-European Greeks. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages

You are a fool. The Indo-European language spread mainly from the Minoans and Pelasgians who spoke proto-Greek. These were the only major civilizations at that time capable of spreading a common language. Greek since the time of Minoans were the most dominant sea faring and trading civilisation.

That is what is shown by archaeology which has discovered Greek ships and trade with the whole of the Mediterranean region and Asia dating from at 3000 BC if not 8000 BC when the first cats were domesticated in Cyprus, and since Cyprus was the first place to domesticate Cats the Greek word Gata entered the language of every place they were exported to and the same with the names of other domestic animals and commodities traded by the Greeks.

On the basis of Archaeology and Genetic Population movements all Indo-European languages evolved from Minoan Greek starting in about 3000 BC. DNA research suggests that the Minoan evolved Greek DNA linage traveled from Greece to India but no native Indian DNA lineages travelling to Greece.

There is NO Archaeological or Genetic evidence whatsoever of any so-called proto-Indo-European language. Language spread from Greece to the rest of Europe and India through trade whereby the inventors of new technology and the breeders of new farm animals gave them names which everyone else they traded with used and these trades invented the common number system. Everything else came from Greek poetry and philosophy and from the Greek bible which as has already been shown was transliterated almost word for word into Gothic and the corrupted orally through the process of consonantal shift.

The Steppe had a very limited vocabulary of about 100 words since they were nomadic hunter gatherers who not civilised and 100 words is all they needed. Where was the Germanic Homer. Where was their Plato and Aristotle and their Pindar, and Aristophanes and Euripides and Sophocles and Aesshlesu
and their Anaxagoras and Parmenides. The Germanic tribes had no need for a complex langue since they had no idea of what to express in it. All they needed was 100 words, hunt, kill, eat etc Everything else was adopted from Greek.

We know from primary historical sources, Herodotus, Thucydides and Plato hunted gatherers had no spare time to create anything or philosophise. It was a battle just to stay alive. The words appeared and developed at the same time as writing. If writing had not been invented then they would have been generic grunts. Nobody would know what they referred to unless it was pointed out to them. That's what the cave paintings were for.

Humans had 135,000 years to develop language but it only happened after the first cities appeared when writing was invented. If language had existed 135,000 years ago we would have been on the moon 50,000 years ago. It is a historical fact stated by Herodotus that leisure and its associated pastimes like philosophy and mathematics and arts did no come about until people settled done and farmed the land in peace and security and didn't have to worry about where the next meal was coming from on a daily basis.

If hunting gave people so much free time then why hadn't hunter gathers invented the mobile phone and satellite tracking systems 200,000 years ago considering they would have had plenty of time to develop the technology that would have led to them.

[Kelmendasi]

You are a fool. The Indo-European language spread mainly from the Minoans and Pelasgians who spoke proto-Greek. These were the only major civilizations at that time capable of spreading a common language. Greek since the time of Minoans were the most dominant sea faring and trading civilisation.

That is what is shown by archaeology which has discovered Greek ships and trade with the whole of the Mediterranean region and Asia dating from at 3000 BC if not 8000 BC when the first cats were domesticated in Cyprus, and since Cyprus was the first place to domesticate Cats the Greek word Gata entered the language of every place they were exported to and the same with the names of other domestic animals and commodities traded by the Greeks.

On the basis of Archaeology and Genetic Population movements all Indo-European languages evolved from Minoan Greek starting in about 3000 BC. DNA research suggests that the Minoan evolved Greek DNA linage traveled from Greece to India but no native Indian DNA lineages travelling to Greece.

There is NO Archaeological or Genetic evidence whatsoever of any so-called proto-Indo-European language. Language spread from Greece to the rest of Europe and India through trade whereby the inventors of new technology and the breeders of new farm animals gave them names which everyone else they traded with used and these trades invented the common number system. Everything else came from Greek poetry and philosophy and from the Greek bible which as has already been shown was transliterated almost word for word into Gothic and the corrupted orally through the process of consonantal shift.

The Steppe had a very limited vocabulary of about 100 words since they were nomadic hunter gatherers who not civilised and 100 words is all they needed. Where was the Germanic Homer. Where was their Plato and Aristotle and their Pindar, and Aristophanes and Euripides and Sophocles and Aesshlesu
and their Anaxagoras and Parmenides. The Germanic tribes had no need for a complex langue since they had no idea of what to express in it. All they needed was 100 words, hunt, kill, eat etc Everything else was adopted from Greek.

We know from primary historical sources, Herodotus, Thucydides and Plato hunted gatherers had no spare time to create anything or philosophise. It was a battle just to stay alive. The words appeared and developed at the same time as writing. If writing had not been invented then they would have been generic grunts. Nobody would know what they referred to unless it was pointed out to them. That's what the cave paintings were for.

Humans had 135,000 years to develop language but it only happened after the first cities appeared when writing was invented. If language had existed 135,000 years ago we would have been on the moon 50,000 years ago. It is a historical fact stated by Herodotus that leisure and its associated pastimes like philosophy and mathematics and arts did no come about until people settled done and farmed the land in peace and security and didn't have to worry about where the next meal was coming from on a daily basis.

If hunting gave people so much free time then why hadn't hunter gathers invented the mobile phone and satellite tracking systems 200,000 years ago considering they would have had plenty of time to develop the technology that would have led to them.
Yes we are all Greeks ;). Explain your Steppe derived genes found among all Europeans

[wvwvw]

Yes we are all Greeks ;). Explain your Steppe derived genes found among all Europeans

I see no contradiction here. A Steppe linage/people combined with the Helladic agricultural linages of Greece J2 and Ev13 and formed the Ancient Greeks.

Before those Steppe people, the whole Balkans to Greece to Anatolia spoke a Greco-Hittite or Greco-Phoenician language which was very similar to proto-Greek.

The Steppe people Indo-Europanized their language after interracting with the Helladic indigenous population of Greece. They contributed with some words to the new language and that is how proto Greek was born.

The Hittites and Persians remained unaffected by the Steppe people, who arrived at the Balkans, and later Hittites fell under the influence of Assyrians and their language was Semitized.

[Karol Klačansky]

What comes first: DNA or language and culture?
Dna

[Kamal900]

..Honestly, I only associate myself to my family and people. I care not about the whole world really since they are very little importance to me. You shouldn't associate yourself or your people to groups just to feel more accepted among them. The reason why I left the ABF is to get away from retarded peoples on the internet like EliasAlucard and etc who kept on fantasizing their own peoples just to associate and garner acceptance from peoples like Whites. Just be yourself and never bother to these trivial matters that means nothing in the end.

[Porn Master]

It's because you're a twink with dyed hair and gay western mannerisms. If you were to be a bearded taliban with a turban who follows trival laws all the Persians and Kurds would revere you like a god.




like this one?

http://68.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lqu7m8nATz1qlz354.jpg


or this?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/db/db/f8/dbdbf83f78dae11011e6b3e565375b47.jpg








xD

[zhaoyun]

#PashtunProblems

[Egyptian]

You're welcome to be considered as Egyptian

[Babak]

Persian came from Greek when they were conquered by the Mycenean Greeks when Perseas came to Persia in 1340 BC and formed the Archemeneid Dynasty hence the mythology of Persians being descendants of Perseus.

Read what Herodotus has to say about the Archemenians. The Persians concurred with Herodotus. They even used the prophesy that a descendent of Perseus would conquer Lydia as justification for their defeat of Croesus.

And Sanskrit came from Persian when Persians (and later the Greeks) conquered the Indians.

Can you shut the fuck up and stop trying to connect everything to greeks for fucks sake? It was the Indo-Iranians who shaped the Persian identity, not greeks.

[Demhat]

I don't have anything to do with the proto-Iranics, they were white and I'm not. I don't have anything to do with Kurds or Persians either, genetically, apparently. They seem to have dibs on being "real iranics" in modern day.

When I grew up and before I took a DNA test, I used to feel very ethnically close to Persians and sort of ethnically close to Kurds. After taking a DNA test, I feel like a fake Iranic or knock off Iranic. Well, it wasn't just taking my dna test that makes me feel that way, it's what has been said to me on anthropology forums over the last year. Kurds and Persians on anthropology forums like to distance me from them, group me with Punjabis and even Gujaratis sometimes, and claim that they are closer to Southern Europeans than to me, or are an extension of mediterranian people. Or they will say they are west eurasian and that I'm not. It's kind of weird, because Persians and Kurds in person try to relate to me a lot and definitely consider me the same race as them and consider pashtuns similar to them in looks, but the ones on anthropology forums don't want anything to do with me, and I bet they don't want anything to do with me even more so now after viewing my ancestry results.

I try to tell myself that DNA doesn't matter, but it's hard to tell myself that sometimes even if I know it's very true, because everyone likes to put people in boxes and categories based on these numbers and think that they can just change a person's thought process and identity by one forum post.

The only South-Central Asian "Iranic" people that west iranics on forum boards seem to care about are Pamiri Tajiks, because of their association with Scythians, yet they even try to distance me from Pamiris. Pashtuns are just tossed aside as some pedophilic iranicized punjabis, and it further makes me feel like a fake iranic. It even makes me feel less close to the Persians and Kurds I know in person (ethnically).

Which Kurds have distanced you from thelselves towards Punjabis or Gujaratis. I have seen Kurds (including me) trying to explain you that there is a genetic gap between West and East Iranics but we have also tried to explain you that this doesn't mean you are genetically closer to South Asians. It simply means East Iranics are a genetic group of themselves. And certanly you are not less Iranic because Iranic is a ethno-linguistic designation.

2. Iranics where not "white", because white is a modern Anglo_Saxon term. Therefore just like a Blonde Afghan is a Afghan and not White/European, so weren't ancient Iranics white.

3. Even if we went strictly by looks, even the "proto Iranics" were not white in modern North, Northwest/East European sense. But more akine to Balkan Slavs, at best Central Europeans such as Austrians, Swiss, French, Hungarians. There are several cultures connect to Indo_iranians, such as Srubna, Poltavka, Sintashta/Andronovo, Yaz and Kura Araxes to some extend.
Sintashta taken for example have been identified via DNA to have had a frequency of 60% of light hair and light eyes. Now you need to take into consideration that in these studies, everything lighter than dark brown is considered light hair and everything lighter than brown as light eyes. So in many cases it is not necessary blond and blue eyed.

4. Sintashta is only one Indo Iranian culture and by that only a Proto_Indo-Iranic culture and not necessary the forefather of all Iranics let alone West Iranics. By the time West Iranics evolved from a fusion of Yaz culture and Kura Araxes (who on themselves where predominantly Mediterranean pigmented), they were already very similar to how they look today.

As I have pointed out in the past Tajiks, Pashtuns, Pamiri/Yaghnobi, Baloch, Turkmens and to some extend Uzbeks are very similar to West Iranics but there is still a significant gap. Therefore it is best to list them as their own "East Iranic" group. Best described as Western_Central Asians (as the Western part of Central Asia, while the Eastern Part is more East Eurasian).

[Babak]

I don't have anything to do with the proto-Iranics, they were white and I'm not. I don't have anything to do with Kurds or Persians either, genetically, apparently. They seem to have dibs on being "real iranics" in modern day.

When I grew up and before I took a DNA test, I used to feel very ethnically close to Persians and sort of ethnically close to Kurds. After taking a DNA test, I feel like a fake Iranic or knock off Iranic. Well, it wasn't just taking my dna test that makes me feel that way, it's what has been said to me on anthropology forums over the last year. Kurds and Persians on anthropology forums like to distance me from them, group me with Punjabis and even Gujaratis sometimes, and claim that they are closer to Southern Europeans than to me, or are an extension of mediterranian people. Or they will say they are west eurasian and that I'm not. It's kind of weird, because Persians and Kurds in person try to relate to me a lot and definitely consider me the same race as them and consider pashtuns similar to them in looks, but the ones on anthropology forums don't want anything to do with me, and I bet they don't want anything to do with me even more so now after viewing my ancestry results.

I try to tell myself that DNA doesn't matter, but it's hard to tell myself that sometimes even if I know it's very true, because everyone likes to put people in boxes and categories based on these numbers and think that they can just change a person's thought process and identity by one forum post.

The only South-Central Asian "Iranic" people that west iranics on forum boards seem to care about are Pamiri Tajiks, because of their association with Scythians, yet they even try to distance me from Pamiris. Pashtuns are just tossed aside as some pedophilic iranicized punjabis, and it further makes me feel like a fake iranic. It even makes me feel less close to the Persians and Kurds I know in person (ethnically).
.

[zarzian]

I don't have anything to do with the proto-Iranics, they were white and I'm not. I don't have anything to do with Kurds or Persians either, genetically, apparently. They seem to have dibs on being "real iranics" in modern day.

When I grew up and before I took a DNA test, I used to feel very ethnically close to Persians and sort of ethnically close to Kurds. After taking a DNA test, I feel like a fake Iranic or knock off Iranic. Well, it wasn't just taking my dna test that makes me feel that way, it's what has been said to me on anthropology forums over the last year. Kurds and Persians on anthropology forums like to distance me from them, group me with Punjabis and even Gujaratis sometimes, and claim that they are closer to Southern Europeans than to me, or are an extension of mediterranian people. Or they will say they are west eurasian and that I'm not. It's kind of weird, because Persians and Kurds in person try to relate to me a lot and definitely consider me the same race as them and consider pashtuns similar to them in looks, but the ones on anthropology forums don't want anything to do with me, and I bet they don't want anything to do with me even more so now after viewing my ancestry results.

I try to tell myself that DNA doesn't matter, but it's hard to tell myself that sometimes even if I know it's very true, because everyone likes to put people in boxes and categories based on these numbers and think that they can just change a person's thought process and identity by one forum post.

The only South-Central Asian "Iranic" people that west iranics on forum boards seem to care about are Pamiri Tajiks, because of their association with Scythians, yet they even try to distance me from Pamiris. Pashtuns are just tossed aside as some pedophilic iranicized punjabis, and it further makes me feel like a fake iranic. It even makes me feel less close to the Persians and Kurds I know in person (ethnically).


BULLSHIT, Original Iranics were NOT white, there is no merit to this bullshit garbage spewed by non cultured slavs, slavs were not even attested before 1000AD.

[Myanthropologies]

You should embrace the Helleno-Buddhist past of Afghanistan.

Well the thing is, I dont care about this on real life, Im talking about where I fall here on anthropology forums. My identity in real life is strictly american, and I feel closer to all Americans regardless of their race. But when I'm on geese anthropology forums, what race I am or what I am supposedly ethnically close to seems to be defined by genetics sometimes, how I look other times, and actual cultures other times.

Honestly I sounded a little dramatic in the opening post on purpose, because I wanted to start discussion, but it didn't end up how I wanted. It ended up being fighting that the Greeks were PIE lol

[Sekarotuinen]

You look completely white imo, lol.

[Leto]

BULLSHIT, Original Iranics were NOT white, there is no merit to this bullshit garbage spewed by non cultured slavs, slavs were not even attested before 1000AD.
They had much more Euro hunter-gatherer blood than any modern Iranic-speaking people.

[Babak]

Well the thing is, I dont care about this on real life, Im talking about where I fall here on anthropology forums. My identity in real life is strictly american, and I feel closer to all Americans regardless of their race. But when I'm on geese anthropology forums, what race I am or what I am supposedly ethnically close to seems to be defined by genetics sometimes, how I look other times, and actual cultures other times.

Honestly I sounded a little dramatic in the opening post on purpose, because I wanted to start discussion, but it didn't end up how I wanted. It ended up being fighting that the Greeks were PIE lol

Raine is always trying to connect everything to greeks, dont worry about it

[Demhat]

They had much more Euro hunter-gatherer blood than any modern Iranic-speaking people.

as well allot more Iranian/Caucasus-Herder DNA than any modern European.

[Leto]

as well allot more Iranian/Caucasus-Herder DNA than any modern European.
I didn't say they were like modern East Europeans. They were somewhere in between, say, Poles and Ossetians, I guess. But they were not dark-skinned. I suppose Bactria-Margiana people were dark as hell and they diluted the lighteness of Proto-Iranians.

[Pahli]

I didn't say they were like modern East Europeans. They were somewhere in between, say, Poles and Ossetians, I guess. But they were not dark-skinned. I suppose Bactria-Margiana people were dark as hell and they diluted the lighteness of Proto-Iranians.

This is from Andronovo:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 55.73
2 West_Asia 17.68
3 SW_Europe 17.59
4 South_Asia 4.08
5 Siberia 2.47
6 Americas 2.4
7 Oceania 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Mordovian 10.44
2 Russian 12.06
3 Belarusian 13.22
4 Ukrainian 13.46
5 Polish 13.99
6 Estonian 16.06
7 Slovak 16.19
8 German_North 16.64
9 Lithuanian 16.76
10 Latvian 16.94
11 Swedish 17.14
12 Norwegian 17.21
13 Moldavian 17.91
14 Slovene 18.04
15 Tatar 18.27
16 Hungarian 19.13
17 Irish 19.81
18 Utahn_European 20.09
19 Scottish 20.11
20 Orcadian 20.33

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 73.8% Lithuanian + 26.2% Afghan_Pashtun @ 4.71-> 75% Baltic + 25% Myanthropologies :laugh:
2 70.4% Latvian + 29.6% Tadjik @ 4.77
3 70.7% Lithuanian + 29.3% Tadjik @ 4.79
4 73.6% Latvian + 26.4% Afghan_Pashtun @ 4.79
5 74.8% Estonian + 25.2% Afghan_Pashtun @ 4.98

[Leto]

This is from Andronovo:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 55.73
2 West_Asia 17.68
3 SW_Europe 17.59
4 South_Asia 4.08
5 Siberia 2.47
6 Americas 2.4
7 Oceania 0.04

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Mordovian 10.44
2 Russian 12.06
3 Belarusian 13.22
4 Ukrainian 13.46
5 Polish 13.99
6 Estonian 16.06
7 Slovak 16.19
8 German_North 16.64
9 Lithuanian 16.76
10 Latvian 16.94
11 Swedish 17.14
12 Norwegian 17.21
13 Moldavian 17.91
14 Slovene 18.04
15 Tatar 18.27
16 Hungarian 19.13
17 Irish 19.81
18 Utahn_European 20.09
19 Scottish 20.11
20 Orcadian 20.33

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 73.8% Lithuanian + 26.2% Afghan_Pashtun @ 4.71-> 75% Baltic + 25% Myanthropologies :laugh:
2 70.4% Latvian + 29.6% Tadjik @ 4.77
3 70.7% Lithuanian + 29.3% Tadjik @ 4.79
4 73.6% Latvian + 26.4% Afghan_Pashtun @ 4.79
5 74.8% Estonian + 25.2% Afghan_Pashtun @ 4.98
Which calc is this?

[Pahli]

Which calc is this?

PuntDNAL K13 Global

[Myanthropologies]

BULLSHIT, Original Iranics were NOT white, there is no merit to this bullshit garbage spewed by non cultured slavs, slavs were not even attested before 1000AD.

I was joking about that part. Proto-Iranians were like no modern ethnicity but they were between eastern iranics and eastern afghans. Also I'm out of all the members on this site, I'm one of the only members who even scores yamnya and scythians in ancient oracles at all

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?215141-puntDNAL-K12-Ancient-Oracle

[Leto]

PuntDNAL K13 Global
Mine for comparison:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 56.46
2 SW_Europe 19.25
3 West_Asia 9.92
4 Siberia 4.74
5 SW_Asia 4.68
6 Americas 1.59
7 SE_Asia 1.25
8 NE_Asia 0.85
9 South_Africa 0.67
10 South_Asia 0.57
11 West_Africa 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Mordovian 4.28
2 Russian 5.64
3 Belarusian 8.22
4 Polish 9.34
5 Ukrainian 10.42
6 Estonian 11.4
7 Lithuanian 12.37
8 Latvian 12.54
9 Swedish 13.24
10 German_North 13.75
11 Slovak 13.89
12 Norwegian 14.15
13 Slovene 15.77
14 Finnish 16.45
15 Utahn_European 16.94
16 Moldavian 17.1
17 Hungarian 17.27
18 Irish 17.38
19 Tatar 17.65
20 Orcadian 17.94

[Pahli]

Mine for comparison:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 NE_Europe 56.46
2 SW_Europe 19.25
3 West_Asia 9.92
4 Siberia 4.74
5 SW_Asia 4.68
6 Americas 1.59
7 SE_Asia 1.25
8 NE_Asia 0.85
9 South_Africa 0.67
10 South_Asia 0.57
11 West_Africa 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Mordovian 4.28
2 Russian 5.64
3 Belarusian 8.22
4 Polish 9.34
5 Ukrainian 10.42
6 Estonian 11.4
7 Lithuanian 12.37
8 Latvian 12.54
9 Swedish 13.24
10 German_North 13.75
11 Slovak 13.89
12 Norwegian 14.15
13 Slovene 15.77
14 Finnish 16.45
15 Utahn_European 16.94
16 Moldavian 17.1
17 Hungarian 17.27
18 Irish 17.38
19 Tatar 17.65
20 Orcadian 17.94

Pretty similar, they just have less SW_Europe and more West Asian

[Demhat]

I didn't say they were like modern East Europeans. They were somewhere in between, say, Poles and Ossetians, I guess. But they were not dark-skinned. I suppose Bactria-Margiana people were dark as hell and they diluted the lighteness of Proto-Iranians.

Read my comment here, especially the bolded part.

Which Kurds have distanced you from thelselves towards Punjabis or Gujaratis. I have seen Kurds (including me) trying to explain you that there is a genetic gap between West and East Iranics but we have also tried to explain you that this doesn't mean you are genetically closer to South Asians. It simply means East Iranics are a genetic group of themselves. And certanly you are not less Iranic because Iranic is a ethno-linguistic designation.

2. Iranics where not "white", because white is a modern Anglo_Saxon term. Therefore just like a Blonde Afghan is a Afghan and not White/European, so weren't ancient Iranics white.

3. Even if we went strictly by looks, even the "proto Iranics" were not white in modern North, Northwest/East European sense. But more akine to Balkan Slavs, at best Central Europeans such as Austrians, Swiss, French, Hungarians. There are several cultures connect to Indo_iranians, such as Srubna, Poltavka, Sintashta/Andronovo, Yaz and Kura Araxes to some extend.
Sintashta taken for example have been identified via DNA to have had a frequency of 50% of light hair and light eyes. Now you need to take into consideration that in these studies, everything lighter than dark brown is considered light hair and everything lighter than brown as light eyes. So in many cases it is not necessary blond and blue eyed.

4. Sintashta is only one Indo Iranian culture and by that only a Proto_Indo-Iranic culture and not necessary the forefather of all Iranics let alone West Iranics. By the time West Iranics evolved from a fusion of Yaz culture and Kura Araxes (who on themselves where predominantly Mediterranean pigmented), they were already very similar to how they look today.

As I have pointed out in the past Tajiks, Pashtuns, Pamiri/Yaghnobi, Baloch, Turkmens and to some extend Uzbeks are very similar to West Iranics but there is still a significant gap. Therefore it is best to list them as their own "East Iranic" group. Best described as Western_Central Asians (as the Western part of Central Asia, while the Eastern Part is more East Eurasian).

the Iranics were not all between Ossetians and East Europeans. Some Proto_Indo_Iranian cultures were. But Iranics had a little more diversity. Some were inbetween East Euros and North Caucasians, others were very similar to Tajiks, Pamiris, Pashtuns. Ancient West Iranics were almost carbon copies of Kurds, South Caspian Iranics (Mazandarani, Gilaki, Semnani) Azeris or Persians.

[Demhat]

PuntDNAL K13 Global

Take calc. with a grain of salt. If you know how they work, you know how easy it is to manipulate them in the way to gain the confirmation bias you are looking for.

[Dandelion]

Well the thing is, I dont care about this on real life, Im talking about where I fall here on anthropology forums. My identity in real life is strictly american, and I feel closer to all Americans regardless of their race. But when I'm on geese anthropology forums, what race I am or what I am supposedly ethnically close to seems to be defined by genetics sometimes, how I look other times, and actual cultures other times.

Honestly I sounded a little dramatic in the opening post on purpose, because I wanted to start discussion, but it didn't end up how I wanted. It ended up being fighting that the Greeks were PIE lol

One Afghan-American YT'er I used to follow:

https://www.youtube.com/user/Behrudy

Very likeable guy and skilled at fighting games to boot.

Born in Voronezh, Russia.

[Wadaad]

I don't have anything to do with the proto-Iranics, they were white and I'm not. I don't have anything to do with Kurds or Persians either, genetically, apparently. They seem to have dibs on being "real iranics" in modern day.

When I grew up and before I took a DNA test, I used to feel very ethnically close to Persians and sort of ethnically close to Kurds. After taking a DNA test, I feel like a fake Iranic or knock off Iranic. Well, it wasn't just taking my dna test that makes me feel that way, it's what has been said to me on anthropology forums over the last year. Kurds and Persians on anthropology forums like to distance me from them, group me with Punjabis and even Gujaratis sometimes, and claim that they are closer to Southern Europeans than to me, or are an extension of mediterranian people. Or they will say they are west eurasian and that I'm not. It's kind of weird, because Persians and Kurds in person try to relate to me a lot and definitely consider me the same race as them and consider pashtuns similar to them in looks, but the ones on anthropology forums don't want anything to do with me, and I bet they don't want anything to do with me even more so now after viewing my ancestry results.

I try to tell myself that DNA doesn't matter, but it's hard to tell myself that sometimes even if I know it's very true, because everyone likes to put people in boxes and categories based on these numbers and think that they can just change a person's thought process and identity by one forum post.

The only South-Central Asian "Iranic" people that west iranics on forum boards seem to care about are Pamiri Tajiks, because of their association with Scythians, yet they even try to distance me from Pamiris. Pashtuns are just tossed aside as some pedophilic iranicized punjabis, and it further makes me feel like a fake iranic. It even makes me feel less close to the Persians and Kurds I know in person (ethnically).

There are colonized Iranics and Iranians. Colonized Iranics base their identity on what the White man taught them about themselves. Aryan,Scythian, etc...all were minor terminologies in IRANICA until 19th century Europeans made them more important.

As far as I'm concerned, you are from Khorasan, which is the heartland of Persia, according to Persians (pre-Islamic and post).

[Registan]

Why not? Your results are similar to other Afghan Pashtuns and Tajiks who have been tested. Many of the most prominent Iranic empires and historical figures originate in our region (Greater Khorasan i.e. Afghanistan, Eastern Iran, Tajikistan & Uzbekistan). You're prolly 35-40% Steppe in other tools, ADMIXTURE isn't everything

Also, Pamiris are not the only Tajik subgroup. There are many other Tajik subgroups who are much more accomplished and relevant like Tajiks from Balkh, Herat, Samarqand, Bukhara, Badakhshan, Panjsher, etc. Some of them are even closer to Pashtuns genetically than Pamiris are. People on anthro-fora have only heard of Pamiris and over-hype them! In Afghan Badakhshan it is actually Sunni and Persian-speaking Tajiks who are the majority.

[Dandelion]

There are colonized Iranics and Iranians. Colonized Iranics base their identity on what the White man taught them about themselves. Aryan,Scythian, etc...all were minor terminologies in IRANICA until 19th century Europeans made them more important.

As far as I'm concerned, you are from Khorasan, which is the heartland of Persia, according to Persians (pre-Islamic and post).

Well, linguistics only really took off in the 19th century in Europe or so. No idea why you turn this into a 'white thing'.

[Leto]

Well, linguistics only really took off in the 19th century in Europe or so. No idea why you turn this into a 'white thing'.
What can you expect from a Muslim and black supremacist living in the West...:rolleyes:

[Wadaad]

What can you expect from a Muslim and black supremacist living in the West...:rolleyes:

Instead of refuting you just ad-hom like the low intellect that you are...

[Wadaad]

[ comment ] Everybody has heard about Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time, the recent Walt Disney blockbuster featuring Jake Gyllenhaal in the role of...a prince of Persia. That a rather fair actor with Swedish and Ashkenazi heritage plays the lead role in a story set in ancient Iran caused a minor controversy. Some enlightened people believe that Hollywood missed an opportunity to transcend its stereotypical depictions of non-Europeans, particularly Middle Easterners, by offering the part to a brownish hero. Of course, in private discussions, many Iranians, always prompt to portray themselves as "Aryans," concurred that Gyllenhaal accurately embodies how their ancestors must have looked, before Arabs invaded and imposed both their religion and complexion at the point of the sword.
So far, nothing unusual. What is surprising and alarming, however, is that serious intellectuals condoned these views. Asked to comment on producer Jerry Bruckheimer's declaration to The Times of London that many Iranians were "blond and blue-eyed" until "the Turks kinda changed everything," American-Iranian author Reza Aslan asserted that, indeed, Iranians were Aryans. "If we went back in time 1,700 years to the mythological era," Aslan said, "all Iranians would look like Jake Gyllenhaal." This pronouncement highlights the resilience of what I call the "Aryan syndrome" in modern Iran. A historical detour is necessary to show why it is so problematic.

Aryanism is a system of thought born in early-nineteenth-century Europe that divides mankind into different "races." It deems the Aryan race to be "superior," more creative and morally upright than "inferior" races. Those Semites, "Negroes," and others were believed to be characterized by vicious simplicity, cupidity, treacherousness, and an incapacity to grasp metaphysics. It all started soon after Sir William Jones discovered in 1786 that Sanskrit and Persian were related to Latin and Greek, within what later came to be called the Indo-European family of languages.

The term "Aryan" itself is a neologism coined by a French Orientalist of the era, Abraham-Hyacinthe Anquetil-Duperron. It is synonymous with "Indo-European," although the latter has a more geographic connotation. In a Zeitgeist where nations and national cultures were given shape, where myths of genealogy were particularly appealing to intellectuals, and where some were grappling with the moral dilemma of colonizing people in far-off lands, Jones's linguistic theory was swiftly manipulated into a racial one -- linguistic similarity was assumed to denote racial kinship.

Throughout the nineteenth century, Aryanism was wrapped into the discourse of science. Racial anthropology came into being as a discipline claiming to classify humans into different racial categories with immutable psychological features by measuring noses, skulls, and ears. As we know all too well, Aryanists, in particular one Adolf Hitler, became increasingly obsessed with racial purity and elevated the opposition between Aryan and Semite to the level of paradigmatic antagonism. This opened the way for the next stage: extermination. Aryanism provided the ideological backbone for Nazi atrocities.


Despite the rather inglorious legacy of Aryanism, many Iranians still nonchalantly seize every opportunity to emphasize their "Aryanness." But how did Aryanism reach Iran in the first place? Iranian Aryanists would have us believe that we have referred to ourselves as ariya since time immemorial, and that this epithet is a racial one, used to distinguish those who are ariya from those who are not. The claim is fallacious. The term occurs only a handful of times in ancient inscriptions in the Avesta, and on the bas-reliefs of Naqsh-e Rostam and Bisotun. Absolutely no consistent meaning can be derived from these occurrences.

In spite of many attempts to force ariya into Aryanist assumptions, recent scholarship -- in particular the work of Gherardo Gnoli -- has shown that ariya was not quite a racial category. According to Gnoli, in Achaemenid times, ariya was a cultural and religious term to evoke the kings' origin, like a title of particular nobility. In its very restricted, exclusivist nature, that is quite different from a racial category. Moreover, as already mentioned, the term "Aryan" was coined by Anquetil-Duperron. The neologism is charged with modern and romantic European conceptions of "race" that did not exist in Eastern antiquity. Even more importantly, in the entire corpus of Persian literature, verse and prose, there is no reference to an Aryan race until the twentieth century.

[Dandelion]

'Aryan race'. It's so odd to emphasis on such idiocy (and I hope few Iranic people take part in it). The term is a cultural and linguistic term rather the way I understand.

[wvwvw]

Raine is always trying to connect everything to greeks, dont worry about it

The Persians themselves claimed to be descendents of Perseus which firmly dates them to 1320 BC. This is the date when they were speaking an indo-European language which derived from Pelasgian Greek because this is when Perses the son of Perseus became their ruler and imposed Greek on the population.

"As the son of Uranus, Iapetus is linked to the expansion of the most
ancient of the Hellenes into Mesopotamia. The toponymics Ur, Urartou,
Uroúk, in the region which extends from the estuaries to the sources
of the two main rivers -- the Tigris and the Euphrates -- cannot have
come about by mere chance. The astonishing similarities between the
Hellenic Minyan-Aegean civilization, and that of the Sumerians -- a
fantastic race whose very name is the product of the fertile
imaginations of the British archaeologists who first excavated the
cities of this lost civilization -- have already been emphasized. From
the moment we acknowledge that the Greeks were already seafaring from
the middle of the 5th millennium B.C., with what were at that time
state-of-the-art ships, we can speak about their initial expansion
starting from the Palestinian coast. ... From there it would have been
easy to migrate inland to Mesopotamia, even reaching as far as exotic
India (which would explain the many myths concerning the expeditions to
that place by Dionysus at first and Hercules afterwards). We must not
forget that Alexander the Great followed in the footsteps of his
ancestors. And we are not speaking here about migrations of Hellenes to
those faraway places, but rather of expeditions for trade and
discovery, similar to that of the Argonauts.

However, while in the pursuit of trade and an increase of knowledge,
the Hellenes also transmitted the light of their civilization to the
indigenous populations, greatly influencing them in turn. After the
mist-shrouded ages of Dionysus and Hercules, the Minoan Greeks returned
to these lands, establishing trading posts along the rich Arabian Sea
and Persian Gulf. Lending credibility to this assertion is the
persistence -- as the historian Diodorus Siculus informs us -- of the
Yemenis in the belief that they are descended from the Minoans: and the
aforementioned archaeological finds testify to the accuracy of
Diodorus' account. From the Greeks, therefore, the natives in the lands
that extend from the southern borders of the Caspian region to the
foothills of the Caucasus Mountains, most likely learned new crafts and
skills. This is especially true insofar as metallurgy is concerned, and
explains why the acquisition of a Greek sword or dagger by one of that
region's kings was regarded as a great honor, even down to the
Mycenaean period.

In exchange, the Greeks secured a supply of metals and other valuable
raw materials. This held true up to the regions surrounding the estuary
of the Danube River in the north as well. And here, too, the Greeks,
just as during more ancient times, established trading posts for the
purpose of acquiring raw materials. This resulted in the native
populations of these regions becoming somewhat Hellenized. Continuously
exposed as they were, however, to the persistent raids and incursions
of the barbarians in the hinterlands, they never managed to match the
rate of development of the Greeks. We are of course referring here to
the non-Hellenic populations of the northern Balkans, and not to the
Hellenic Thracians, who, because of similar problems, also did not
follow the rate of development of the Greeks in the south or Asia
Minor, the result being they they are today characterized as
non-Greeks."

[Babak]

The Persians themselves claimed to be descendents of Perseus which firmly dates them to 1320 BC. This is the date when they were speaking an indo-European language which derived from Pelasgian Greek because this is when Perses the son of Perseus became their ruler and imposed Greek on the population.

"As the son of Uranus, Iapetus is linked to the expansion of the most
ancient of the Hellenes into Mesopotamia. The toponymics Ur, Urartou,
Uroúk, in the region which extends from the estuaries to the sources
of the two main rivers -- the Tigris and the Euphrates -- cannot have
come about by mere chance. The astonishing similarities between the
Hellenic Minyan-Aegean civilization, and that of the Sumerians -- a
fantastic race whose very name is the product of the fertile
imaginations of the British archaeologists who first excavated the
cities of this lost civilization -- have already been emphasized. From
the moment we acknowledge that the Greeks were already seafaring from
the middle of the 5th millennium B.C., with what were at that time
state-of-the-art ships, we can speak about their initial expansion
starting from the Palestinian coast. ... From there it would have been
easy to migrate inland to Mesopotamia, even reaching as far as exotic
India (which would explain the many myths concerning the expeditions to
that place by Dionysus at first and Hercules afterwards). We must not
forget that Alexander the Great followed in the footsteps of his
ancestors. And we are not speaking here about migrations of Hellenes to
those faraway places, but rather of expeditions for trade and
discovery, similar to that of the Argonauts.

However, while in the pursuit of trade and an increase of knowledge,
the Hellenes also transmitted the light of their civilization to the
indigenous populations, greatly influencing them in turn. After the
mist-shrouded ages of Dionysus and Hercules, the Minoan Greeks returned
to these lands, establishing trading posts along the rich Arabian Sea
and Persian Gulf. Lending credibility to this assertion is the
persistence -- as the historian Diodorus Siculus informs us -- of the
Yemenis in the belief that they are descended from the Minoans: and the
aforementioned archaeological finds testify to the accuracy of
Diodorus' account. From the Greeks, therefore, the natives in the lands
that extend from the southern borders of the Caspian region to the
foothills of the Caucasus Mountains, most likely learned new crafts and
skills. This is especially true insofar as metallurgy is concerned, and
explains why the acquisition of a Greek sword or dagger by one of that
region's kings was regarded as a great honor, even down to the
Mycenaean period.

In exchange, the Greeks secured a supply of metals and other valuable
raw materials. This held true up to the regions surrounding the estuary
of the Danube River in the north as well. And here, too, the Greeks,
just as during more ancient times, established trading posts for the
purpose of acquiring raw materials. This resulted in the native
populations of these regions becoming somewhat Hellenized. Continuously
exposed as they were, however, to the persistent raids and incursions
of the barbarians in the hinterlands, they never managed to match the
rate of development of the Greeks. We are of course referring here to
the non-Hellenic populations of the northern Balkans, and not to the
Hellenic Thracians, who, because of similar problems, also did not
follow the rate of development of the Greeks in the south or Asia
Minor, the result being they they are today characterized as
non-Greeks."

Persians were calling themselves "Pars" and they named the capital of Persian empire "Parseh" which was called Persepolis by the Greeks. That doesnt mean they descended from greeks.

The idea of the Persians being descended from Perseus was probably used for propaganda purposes by different sets of people, likely to claim legitimacy of some sort over others, like you for example.

[Wanderer]

'Aryan race'. It's so odd to emphasis on such idiocy (and I hope few Iranic people take part in it). The term is a cultural and linguistic term rather the way I understand.

Anyone who takes this "Aryan" shit seriously is a loon in my book. Normal nationalists don't.

[Myanthropologies]

Anyone who takes this "Aryan" shit seriously is a loon in my book. Normal nationalists don't.

Nationalism in general has unessecary purposes. Its only necessary in cases of cultural genocide

[Myanthropologies]

Why not? Your results are similar to other Afghan Pashtuns and Tajiks who have been tested. Many of the most prominent Iranic empires and historical figures originate in our region (Greater Khorasan i.e. Afghanistan, Eastern Iran, Tajikistan & Uzbekistan). You're prolly 35-40% Steppe in other tools, ADMIXTURE isn't everything

Also, Pamiris are not the only Tajik subgroup. There are many other Tajik subgroups who are much more accomplished and relevant like Tajiks from Balkh, Herat, Samarqand, Bukhara, Badakhshan, Panjsher, etc. Some of them are even closer to Pashtuns genetically than Pamiris are. People on anthro-fora have only heard of Pamiris and over-hype them! In Afghan Badakhshan it is actually Sunni and Persian-speaking Tajiks who are the majority.

Im actually still close to pamiris genetically anyways

[Sekarotuinen]

Nationalism in general has unessecary purposes. Its only necessary in cases of cultural genocide
The USA is the greatest nation on earth.

[Registan]

Im actually still close to pamiris genetically anyways


True but that wasn't my point.

[zarzian]

[ comment ] Everybody has heard about Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time, the recent Walt Disney blockbuster featuring Jake Gyllenhaal in the role of...a prince of Persia. That a rather fair actor with Swedish and Ashkenazi heritage plays the lead role in a story set in ancient Iran caused a minor controversy. Some enlightened people believe that Hollywood missed an opportunity to transcend its stereotypical depictions of non-Europeans, particularly Middle Easterners, by offering the part to a brownish hero. Of course, in private discussions, many Iranians, always prompt to portray themselves as "Aryans," concurred that Gyllenhaal accurately embodies how their ancestors must have looked, before Arabs invaded and imposed both their religion and complexion at the point of the sword.
So far, nothing unusual. What is surprising and alarming, however, is that serious intellectuals condoned these views. Asked to comment on producer Jerry Bruckheimer's declaration to The Times of London that many Iranians were "blond and blue-eyed" until "the Turks kinda changed everything," American-Iranian author Reza Aslan asserted that, indeed, Iranians were Aryans. "If we went back in time 1,700 years to the mythological era," Aslan said, "all Iranians would look like Jake Gyllenhaal." This pronouncement highlights the resilience of what I call the "Aryan syndrome" in modern Iran. A historical detour is necessary to show why it is so problematic.

Aryanism is a system of thought born in early-nineteenth-century Europe that divides mankind into different "races." It deems the Aryan race to be "superior," more creative and morally upright than "inferior" races. Those Semites, "Negroes," and others were believed to be characterized by vicious simplicity, cupidity, treacherousness, and an incapacity to grasp metaphysics. It all started soon after Sir William Jones discovered in 1786 that Sanskrit and Persian were related to Latin and Greek, within what later came to be called the Indo-European family of languages.

The term "Aryan" itself is a neologism coined by a French Orientalist of the era, Abraham-Hyacinthe Anquetil-Duperron. It is synonymous with "Indo-European," although the latter has a more geographic connotation. In a Zeitgeist where nations and national cultures were given shape, where myths of genealogy were particularly appealing to intellectuals, and where some were grappling with the moral dilemma of colonizing people in far-off lands, Jones's linguistic theory was swiftly manipulated into a racial one -- linguistic similarity was assumed to denote racial kinship.

Throughout the nineteenth century, Aryanism was wrapped into the discourse of science. Racial anthropology came into being as a discipline claiming to classify humans into different racial categories with immutable psychological features by measuring noses, skulls, and ears. As we know all too well, Aryanists, in particular one Adolf Hitler, became increasingly obsessed with racial purity and elevated the opposition between Aryan and Semite to the level of paradigmatic antagonism. This opened the way for the next stage: extermination. Aryanism provided the ideological backbone for Nazi atrocities.


Despite the rather inglorious legacy of Aryanism, many Iranians still nonchalantly seize every opportunity to emphasize their "Aryanness." But how did Aryanism reach Iran in the first place? Iranian Aryanists would have us believe that we have referred to ourselves as ariya since time immemorial, and that this epithet is a racial one, used to distinguish those who are ariya from those who are not. The claim is fallacious. The term occurs only a handful of times in ancient inscriptions in the Avesta, and on the bas-reliefs of Naqsh-e Rostam and Bisotun. Absolutely no consistent meaning can be derived from these occurrences.

In spite of many attempts to force ariya into Aryanist assumptions, recent scholarship -- in particular the work of Gherardo Gnoli -- has shown that ariya was not quite a racial category. According to Gnoli, in Achaemenid times, ariya was a cultural and religious term to evoke the kings' origin, like a title of particular nobility. In its very restricted, exclusivist nature, that is quite different from a racial category. Moreover, as already mentioned, the term "Aryan" was coined by Anquetil-Duperron. The neologism is charged with modern and romantic European conceptions of "race" that did not exist in Eastern antiquity. Even more importantly, in the entire corpus of Persian literature, verse and prose, there is no reference to an Aryan race until the twentieth century.

Doesn't matter if Europeans helped revive the term, Ancient Persians did consider and refer to themselves as "Arya", and the piece of shit author of that comment just brushed the very detailed and exact usage of the term in Darius's Behestun inscriptions to the side as insignificant because it completely destroys his argument. The name Iran, which dates back to atleast the Sassanian times, Eyran, as it was called, was the actual name the Persians called their land, the name Persia to refer to the Iranian Plateau, or land of the Persians, was a Greek name. Iranians just called Pars (Persia in Greek) as the name of the Province which is currently called Fars, but we have always called our whole collective land as Iran.

[Demhat]

[ comment ] Everybody has heard about Prince of Persia: The Sands of Time, the recent Walt Disney blockbuster featuring Jake Gyllenhaal in the role of...a prince of Persia. That a rather fair actor with Swedish and Ashkenazi heritage plays the lead role in a story set in ancient Iran caused a minor controversy. Some enlightened people believe that Hollywood missed an opportunity to transcend its stereotypical depictions of non-Europeans, particularly Middle Easterners, by offering the part to a brownish hero. Of course, in private discussions, many Iranians, always prompt to portray themselves as "Aryans," concurred that Gyllenhaal accurately embodies how their ancestors must have looked, before Arabs invaded and imposed both their religion and complexion at the point of the sword.
So far, nothing unusual. What is surprising and alarming, however, is that serious intellectuals condoned these views. Asked to comment on producer Jerry Bruckheimer's declaration to The Times of London that many Iranians were "blond and blue-eyed" until "the Turks kinda changed everything," American-Iranian author Reza Aslan asserted that, indeed, Iranians were Aryans. "If we went back in time 1,700 years to the mythological era," Aslan said, "all Iranians would look like Jake Gyllenhaal." This pronouncement highlights the resilience of what I call the "Aryan syndrome" in modern Iran. A historical detour is necessary to show why it is so problematic.

Aryanism is a system of thought born in early-nineteenth-century Europe that divides mankind into different "races." It deems the Aryan race to be "superior," more creative and morally upright than "inferior" races. Those Semites, "Negroes," and others were believed to be characterized by vicious simplicity, cupidity, treacherousness, and an incapacity to grasp metaphysics. It all started soon after Sir William Jones discovered in 1786 that Sanskrit and Persian were related to Latin and Greek, within what later came to be called the Indo-European family of languages.

The term "Aryan" itself is a neologism coined by a French Orientalist of the era, Abraham-Hyacinthe Anquetil-Duperron. It is synonymous with "Indo-European," although the latter has a more geographic connotation. In a Zeitgeist where nations and national cultures were given shape, where myths of genealogy were particularly appealing to intellectuals, and where some were grappling with the moral dilemma of colonizing people in far-off lands, Jones's linguistic theory was swiftly manipulated into a racial one -- linguistic similarity was assumed to denote racial kinship.

Throughout the nineteenth century, Aryanism was wrapped into the discourse of science. Racial anthropology came into being as a discipline claiming to classify humans into different racial categories with immutable psychological features by measuring noses, skulls, and ears. As we know all too well, Aryanists, in particular one Adolf Hitler, became increasingly obsessed with racial purity and elevated the opposition between Aryan and Semite to the level of paradigmatic antagonism. This opened the way for the next stage: extermination. Aryanism provided the ideological backbone for Nazi atrocities.


Despite the rather inglorious legacy of Aryanism, many Iranians still nonchalantly seize every opportunity to emphasize their "Aryanness." But how did Aryanism reach Iran in the first place? Iranian Aryanists would have us believe that we have referred to ourselves as ariya since time immemorial, and that this epithet is a racial one, used to distinguish those who are ariya from those who are not. The claim is fallacious. The term occurs only a handful of times in ancient inscriptions in the Avesta, and on the bas-reliefs of Naqsh-e Rostam and Bisotun. Absolutely no consistent meaning can be derived from these occurrences.

In spite of many attempts to force ariya into Aryanist assumptions, recent scholarship -- in particular the work of Gherardo Gnoli -- has shown that ariya was not quite a racial category. According to Gnoli, in Achaemenid times, ariya was a cultural and religious term to evoke the kings' origin, like a title of particular nobility. In its very restricted, exclusivist nature, that is quite different from a racial category. Moreover, as already mentioned, the term "Aryan" was coined by Anquetil-Duperron. The neologism is charged with modern and romantic European conceptions of "race" that did not exist in Eastern antiquity. Even more importantly, in the entire corpus of Persian literature, verse and prose, there is no reference to an Aryan race until the twentieth century.

In recent times many Iranian refugees have arrived in Germany. I can tell you that Jake, especially in the way he was portraited in Prince of Persia wouldn't stand out from a Iranian crowd. He is well suited for the role.

Obviously claiming all Iranians would have looked like Jake would take it too far. We have an Iron_Age Iranian Plateau sample from the Western part. And it is extremely similar to modern Kurds and Persian. With the difference of being a little less Steppic mixed because it predates some later Iranic waves such as the Scythian dominance.

ancient West Iranics would have looked very similar to modern once.

Aryan is not synonymous with Indo_European. European anthropologists and scientists did that later in time. Prior and Originally it was a self designation/title used by Iranic and Indo_Aryan speakers.

The author of the article talks out of his ass if he believes Aryan was only used few times on inscriptions and the Avesta. Cyrus, and many more leaders called themselves Aryan. So did Greek historians record how Medes only called themselves Aryan before changing to Medes.

[Demhat]

The Persians themselves claimed to be descendents of Perseus which firmly dates them to 1320 BC. This is the date when they were speaking an indo-European language which derived from Pelasgian Greek because this is when Perses the son of Perseus became their ruler and imposed Greek on the population.

"As the son of Uranus, Iapetus is linked to the expansion of the most
ancient of the Hellenes into Mesopotamia. The toponymics Ur, Urartou,
Uroúk, in the region which extends from the estuaries to the sources
of the two main rivers -- the Tigris and the Euphrates -- cannot have
come about by mere chance. The astonishing similarities between the
Hellenic Minyan-Aegean civilization, and that of the Sumerians -- a
fantastic race whose very name is the product of the fertile
imaginations of the British archaeologists who first excavated the
cities of this lost civilization -- have already been emphasized. From
the moment we acknowledge that the Greeks were already seafaring from
the middle of the 5th millennium B.C., with what were at that time
state-of-the-art ships, we can speak about their initial expansion
starting from the Palestinian coast. ... From there it would have been
easy to migrate inland to Mesopotamia, even reaching as far as exotic
India (which would explain the many myths concerning the expeditions to
that place by Dionysus at first and Hercules afterwards). We must not
forget that Alexander the Great followed in the footsteps of his
ancestors. And we are not speaking here about migrations of Hellenes to
those faraway places, but rather of expeditions for trade and
discovery, similar to that of the Argonauts.

However, while in the pursuit of trade and an increase of knowledge,
the Hellenes also transmitted the light of their civilization to the
indigenous populations, greatly influencing them in turn. After the
mist-shrouded ages of Dionysus and Hercules, the Minoan Greeks returned
to these lands, establishing trading posts along the rich Arabian Sea
and Persian Gulf. Lending credibility to this assertion is the
persistence -- as the historian Diodorus Siculus informs us -- of the
Yemenis in the belief that they are descended from the Minoans: and the
aforementioned archaeological finds testify to the accuracy of
Diodorus' account. From the Greeks, therefore, the natives in the lands
that extend from the southern borders of the Caspian region to the
foothills of the Caucasus Mountains, most likely learned new crafts and
skills. This is especially true insofar as metallurgy is concerned, and
explains why the acquisition of a Greek sword or dagger by one of that
region's kings was regarded as a great honor, even down to the
Mycenaean period.

In exchange, the Greeks secured a supply of metals and other valuable
raw materials. This held true up to the regions surrounding the estuary
of the Danube River in the north as well. And here, too, the Greeks,
just as during more ancient times, established trading posts for the
purpose of acquiring raw materials. This resulted in the native
populations of these regions becoming somewhat Hellenized. Continuously
exposed as they were, however, to the persistent raids and incursions
of the barbarians in the hinterlands, they never managed to match the
rate of development of the Greeks. We are of course referring here to
the non-Hellenic populations of the northern Balkans, and not to the
Hellenic Thracians, who, because of similar problems, also did not
follow the rate of development of the Greeks in the south or Asia
Minor, the result being they they are today characterized as
non-Greeks."
Persian is a Greekified version of the word Pars. Pars is believe by historians to derive from Parsu a region around Urmiya from where the started to migrate to the modern province of Fars. Parsu is a term probably given to them by the Medes as it's meaning is rib, as in the way they are apart of the bigger group (neighbours).

Ancient Greeks liked to connect the heritage of Persians and Medes to their people. They claimed for example the Medes only started to call themselves this way because of a Greek princess called Medea. While Mede has an ancient Iranic root and means something like "the Middle".

[Kamal900]

Nationalism in general has unessecary purposes. Its only necessary in cases of cultural genocide

Basically this. Nationalism has brought nothing but pain and misery especially in the middle east.

[Wanderer]

Nationalism in general has unessecary purposes. Its only necessary in cases of cultural genocide

Do you consider yourself patriotic? If so, where do you draw the line between patriotism and nationalism?

[Myanthropologies]

Which Kurds have distanced you from thelselves towards Punjabis or Gujaratis. I have seen Kurds (including me) trying to explain you that there is a genetic gap between West and East Iranics but we have also tried to explain you that this doesn't mean you are genetically closer to South Asians. It simply means East Iranics are a genetic group of themselves. And certanly you are not less Iranic because Iranic is a ethno-linguistic designation.

2. Iranics where not "white", because white is a modern Anglo_Saxon term. Therefore just like a Blonde Afghan is a Afghan and not White/European, so weren't ancient Iranics white.

3. Even if we went strictly by looks, even the "proto Iranics" were not white in modern North, Northwest/East European sense. But more akine to Balkan Slavs, at best Central Europeans such as Austrians, Swiss, French, Hungarians. There are several cultures connect to Indo_iranians, such as Srubna, Poltavka, Sintashta/Andronovo, Yaz and Kura Araxes to some extend.
Sintashta taken for example have been identified via DNA to have had a frequency of 60% of light hair and light eyes. Now you need to take into consideration that in these studies, everything lighter than dark brown is considered light hair and everything lighter than brown as light eyes. So in many cases it is not necessary blond and blue eyed.

4. Sintashta is only one Indo Iranian culture and by that only a Proto_Indo-Iranic culture and not necessary the forefather of all Iranics let alone West Iranics. By the time West Iranics evolved from a fusion of Yaz culture and Kura Araxes (who on themselves where predominantly Mediterranean pigmented), they were already very similar to how they look today.

As I have pointed out in the past Tajiks, Pashtuns, Pamiri/Yaghnobi, Baloch, Turkmens and to some extend Uzbeks are very similar to West Iranics but there is still a significant gap. Therefore it is best to list them as their own "East Iranic" group. Best described as Western_Central Asians (as the Western part of Central Asia, while the Eastern Part is more East Eurasian).

Define "significant" gap though? I still cluster relatively close to West Asians on a PCA and don't see how Pashtuns and Tajiks are so different from Western Asians and Western Iranics.

http://i.imgur.com/ijadifQ.jpg

Are Chechens and Lezgins not West Asians too? Why do i plot closer to some supposedly west asian groups than other supposedly west asian groups do if I'm not one?

Over 60% of my DNA is west asian as west asian one gets

Western Central Asian is another bogus term, if anything, they're eastern Western Asians, or south central asians.

the rest of what you said, I agree with.

[Myanthropologies]

Do you consider yourself patriotic? If so, where do you draw the line between patriotism and nationalism?

I'm not nationalistic. Nationalistic people tend to be facist and racist, and I'm not about that. I don't want to slam to the door in the face of anyone who needs a spot in my country and is willing to respect my country's values, culture, etc. And since America is a giant melting pot, it mostly certain values than a specific culture. The beautiful thing about America is the fact that we are a melting pot. Our people are brown, black, white, asian, etc. And most Americans do feel close to each other, regardless of their race (as do i). So I guess, I'm a little patriotic and I do love America, but at the same time, I'm not going to sit there and act like America is a perfect place just because there are worse places in the world. America has a very negative history involving racism and genocide, and I am not proud of that or patriotic about that at all. But I still love my country and love my American people. At the end of the day, we are all human through, and it is really dull to separate yourself from the world that has no limitations.

Like I said, nationalism is necessary when a culture may face (real) genocide, but the extent to which the nationalism goes should be restricted. Nationalism is a failed expirement and it's really just very inhumane imo.

[Babak]

In recent times many Iranian refugees have arrived in Germany. I can tell you that Jake, especially in the way he was portraited in Prince of Persia wouldn't stand out from a Iranian crowd. He is well suited for the role.

Obviously claiming all Iranians would have looked like Jake would take it too far. We have an Iron_Age Iranian Plateau sample from the Western part. And it is extremely similar to modern Kurds and Persian. With the difference of being a little less Steppic mixed because it predates some later Iranic waves such as the Scythian dominance.

ancient West Iranics would have looked very similar to modern once.

Aryan is not synonymous with Indo_European. European anthropologists and scientists did that later in time. Prior and Originally it was a self designation/title used by Iranic and Indo_Aryan speakers.

The author of the article talks out of his ass if he believes Aryan was only used few times on inscriptions and the Avesta. Cyrus, and many more leaders called themselves Aryan. So did Greek historians record how Medes only called themselves Aryan before changing to Medes.

Are you sure about that bro?

[Kamal900]

Are you sure about that bro?

The ancient West Iranic groups that first entered Iran more than 3000 years ago were pretty similar to central Asiatics than today's western Iranic peoples like Balochis, Persians and etc. Besides, being Iranic is just an ethno-linguistic grouping. I mean, Assyrians, who are Semites, genetically cluster the closest to Armenians, Kurds and other west Asiatics who are neither Afro-Asiatics or Semites. Arabians, who are central Semitic peoples native to Arabia, and Egyptians, who are not Semitic or Arabs, genetically cluster to one another than to other middle easterners.

[Demhat]

Define "significant" gap though? I still cluster relatively close to West Asians on a PCA and don't see how Pashtuns and Tajiks are so different from Western Asians and Western Iranics.

http://i.imgur.com/ijadifQ.jpg

Are Chechens and Lezgins not West Asians too? Why do i plot closer to some supposedly west asian groups than other supposedly west asian groups do if I'm not one?

Over 60% of my DNA is west asian as west asian one gets

Western Central Asian is another bogus term, if anything, they're eastern Western Asians, or south central asians.

the rest of what you said, I agree with.

You didn't seem to understand the definition of gap. There is no gap betwen Ossetians and Persians. There are several groups inbetween but than I never considered North Caucasians as "West Asian" to begin with. I have always pointed out that for me West Asian means Anatolia, South_Caucasus, Iranian Plateau, Mesopotamia and the Levant. Within this Anatolia-Mesopotamia-South_Caucasus-Iranian Plateau build their own cluster. while the Levant it's own.

Significant doesn't mean it is huge. It simply means it is big enough to be recognized.

The map you posted above is just a 2 dimensional PCA. From different ankles (more dimensions) you will see what I mean.

But as I have pointed out in the past already. West_Central Asia looks like a extension of Western Asia. I never claimed a opposite.

I used to call it South_Central Asia, but you didn't seem to like it. Now I am calling it Western_Central Asia. But if you like the idea more, fine than let's call it Eastern West Asia.

[Babak]

The ancient West Iranic groups that first entered Iran more than 3000 years ago were pretty similar to central Asiatics than today's western Iranic peoples like Balochis, Persians and etc. Besides, being Iranic is just an ethno-linguistic grouping. I mean, Assyrians, who are Semites, genetically cluster the closest to Armenians, Kurds and other west Asiatics who are neither Afro-Asiatics or Semites. Arabians, who are central Semitic peoples native to Arabia, and Egyptians, who are not Semitic or Arabs, genetically cluster to one another than to other middle easterners.

yea thats what im saying but demhat says otherwise, which is why i questioned him

[Drawing-slim]

https://youtu.be/Du_YaEXVv2Y

Damn this song brought me memories. Long time ago

[Myanthropologies]

You didn't seem to understand the definition of gap. There is no gap betwen Ossetians and Persians. There are several groups inbetween but than I never considered North Caucasians as "West Asian" to begin with. I have always pointed out that for me West Asian means Anatolia, South_Caucasus, Iranian Plateau, Mesopotamia and the Levant. Within this Anatolia-Mesopotamia-South_Caucasus-Iranian Plateau build their own cluster. while the Levant it's own.

Significant doesn't mean it is huge. It simply means it is big enough to be recognized.

The map you posted above is just a 2 dimensional PCA. From different ankles (more dimensions) you will see what I mean.

But as I have pointed out in the past already. West_Central Asia looks like a extension of Western Asia. I never claimed a opposite.

I used to call it South_Central Asia, but you didn't seem to like it. Now I am calling it Western_Central Asia. But if you like the idea more, fine than let's call it Eastern West Asia.

1. Afganistan is part of the Iranian Plateau. It is actually a major chunk of it.

2. Most pca plots are 2D anyway. Dodecad world9 is a really good pca for west asians and not just Europeans as well.

3..I don't want to be argumentative with you because I actually am fond of you as a person. Just saying that as a disclaimer.

4. If Levantines can be considered west asian, I don't see why afghans can't. Western Iranics and Turks cluster pretty much just as far from both, and Afghans have a lot of real west asian dna. Eastern West Asia is probably the best label for them considering their culture, history, genetic, and most importantly geography (go a look at a map of Asia and draw a line in the center of it. You will be in the middle of China and not near Afghanistan at all). Afghans are already considered "Middle Eastern" people by most in the West anyways, and Afghanistan seems to be the cut off of that generally, too.

[Kamal900]

1. Afganistan is part of the Iranian Plateau. It is actually a major chunk of it.

2. Most pca plots are 2D anyway. Dodecad world9 is a really good pca for west asians and not just Europeans as well.

3..I don't want to be argumentative with you because I actually am fond of you as a person. Just saying that as a disclaimer.

4. If Levantines can be considered west asian, I don't see why afghans can't. Western Iranics and Turks cluster pretty much just as far from both, and Afghans have a lot of real west asian dna. Eastern West Asia is probably the best label for them considering their culture, history, genetic, and most importantly geography (go a look at a map of Asia and draw a line in the center of it. You will be in the middle of China and not near Afghanistan at all). Afghans are already considered "Middle Eastern" people by most in the West anyways, and Afghanistan seems to be the cut off of that generally, too.

Not all Levantines are genetically west Asiatics. Palestinians, Jordanians and Syrians are genetically south-west Asiatics, and they cluster the closest to Arabians, North and East Africans while the genetic isolated groups of the Levant like the Druze and the Maronites cluster to west Asia. Yes, Afghans in general are not seen any differently from MENA peoples in general. Personally, Pashtuns have high self respect and honor than their Iranian and Turkish counterparts.

[Babak]

Not all Levantines are genetically west Asiatics. Palestinians, Jordanians and Syrians are genetically south-west Asiatics, and they cluster the closest to Arabians, North and East Africans while the genetic isolated groups of the Levant like the Druze and the Maronites cluster to west Asia. Yes, Afghans in general are not seen any differently from MENA peoples in general. Personally, Pashtuns have high self respect and honor than their Iranian and Turkish counterparts.


I heard druze are rather a classic mix of Persians, arabs, and native levants. But yea, they have more of a west asian pull.

[Wadaad]

Rumi was born in Balkh...This was an outpost in Khorasan. When he left there for the 'west' Seljuq territory of "Rum"...He did not consider to be travelling to a foreign land. The Seljuqs were as Persianate as he was. Back then it was all Iranica. I understand that events since has made Turkish feel different from Afghans who feel different from Kurds or whatever. Back then, they were all town based identity...Balkh was different from Merv which was different from Tabriz which was different from Shiraz. But the whole was part of the Ummah and they spoke Fars, Arabic for high society stuff...and maybe Turki or Kurdi in the home.

Balkh was the 'vanguard' region where Yazdgard the last Sassanian prince fomented his Persian resistance against the Muslim invaders. It accepted Islam 2 centuries later

Balkh is in present day Pashtun or tajik country I believe. Afghanistan or Tajikistan.

Myanthro, dont forget everything is a social construct, and you have to ask yourself why some constructs are discarded, or derided more than others ;)

[Registan]

^Balkh is in northern Afghanistan, its main ethnic groups are Tajiks and Uzbeks. Greater Balkh includes parts of southern Tajikistan as well as northeast and central Afghanistan.

[Mingle]

Which Kurds have distanced you from thelselves towards Punjabis or Gujaratis. I have seen Kurds (including me) trying to explain you that there is a genetic gap between West and East Iranics but we have also tried to explain you that this doesn't mean you are genetically closer to South Asians. It simply means East Iranics are a genetic group of themselves. And certanly you are not less Iranic because Iranic is a ethno-linguistic designation.

As I have pointed out in the past Tajiks, Pashtuns, Pamiri/Yaghnobi, Baloch, Turkmens and to some extend Uzbeks are very similar to West Iranics but there is still a significant gap. Therefore it is best to list them as their own "East Iranic" group. Best described as Western_Central Asians (as the Western part of Central Asia, while the Eastern Part is more East Eurasian).

Afaik, the "significant gap" is mainly because Persians from eastern Iran (Khorasan, Semnan) are not included in DNA results. The DNA results of Iranians mainly just includes Iranians from central Iran and western Iran. If it were to include to genetic results of Khorasanis, then they would complete the continuum between Afghanistan and central Iran. Do you happen to have any data regarding people from eastern Iran (Khorasan, Semanan) and see how they compare to East Iranics (Pashtuns, Pamiris) and Baloches?

[Babak]

Afaik, the "significant gap" is mainly because Persians from eastern Iran (Khorasan, Semnan) are not included in DNA results. The DNA results of Iranians mainly just includes Iranians from central Iran and western Iran. If it were to include to genetic results of Khorasanis, then they would complete the continuum between Afghanistan and central Iran. Do you happen to have any data regarding people from eastern Iran (Khorasan, Semanan) and see how they compare to East Iranics (Pashtuns, Pamiris) and Baloches?

Heres one from gorgan:

# Population Percent
1 Caucasus_HG 44.17
2 Anatolian_NF 19.31
3 South_Asian 13.84
4 Near_East 13.11
5 European_HG 4.94
6 East_Asian 1.78
7 Siberian 1.41
8 South_African_HG 0.66
9 Sub-Saharan 0.65
10 Oceanian 0.14



Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Iranian 7.19
2 Kurdish 11.7
3 Turkish 13.74
4 Georgian_Jew 15.97
5 Kumyk 16.29
6 Afghan_Pashtun 16.37
7 Laz 16.72
8 Turkish_Trabzon 17
9 Turkish_Kayseri 17.1
10 Chechen 17.15
11 Assyrian 17.57
12 Iranian_Jew 17.91
13 Armenian 18.04
14 North_Ossetian 18.29
15 Balkar 19.62
16 Adygei 20.04
17 Balochi 20.36
18 Abkhasian 20.66
19 Makrani 21.05
20 Pakistan_Pashtun 21.3

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 64.3% Georgian_Jew + 35.7% Burusho @ 1.98
2 80.5% Iranian + 19.5% Burusho @ 2
3 63.1% Georgian_Jew + 36.9% Pathan @ 2.45
4 82% Iranian + 18% Kashmir @ 2.57
5 80.2% Iranian + 19.8% Pathan @ 2.7
6 81.4% Iranian + 18.6% Sindhi @ 2.72
7 87.2% Iranian + 12.8% Bengali_Muslim @ 2.74
8 56.1% Makrani + 43.9% Cypriot @ 2.81
9 82.2% Iranian + 17.8% Punjabi_Jatt_Muslim @ 2.91
10 80.4% Iranian + 19.6% Punjabi_Jatt_Sikh @ 2.99
11 76.4% Iranian + 23.6% Pakistan_Pashtun @ 3.06
12 66.1% Georgian_Jew + 33.9% Kashmir @ 3.08
13 84.3% Iranian + 15.7% UP_Muslim @ 3.16
14 88.2% Iranian + 11.8% Keralam @ 3.19
15 81.9% Iranian + 18.1% Haryana_Jatt @ 3.21
16 86.9% Iranian + 13.1% Gujarati @ 3.22
17 57.4% Georgian_Jew + 42.6% Pakistan_Pashtun @ 3.25
18 63.1% Georgian_Jew + 36.9% Punjabi_Jatt_Sikh @ 3.28
19 57.1% Afghan_Pashtun + 42.9% Iraqi_Jew @ 3.28
20 71.6% Iranian + 28.4% Afghan_Pashtun @ 3.33

[Registan]

Afaik, the "significant gap" is mainly because Persians from eastern Iran (Khorasan, Semnan) are not included in DNA results. The DNA results of Iranians mainly just includes Iranians from central Iran and western Iran. If it were to include to genetic results of Khorasanis, then they would complete the continuum between Afghanistan and central Iran. Do you happen to have any data regarding people from eastern Iran (Khorasan, Semanan) and see how they compare to East Iranics (Pashtuns, Pamiris) and Baloches?

There is a Khorasani Persian sample from Iran on Harappa, he has more of a shift toward Pashtuns, Tajiks and Pamiris. Tajiks from Herat in western Afghanistan would also fill the gap because they overlap with Persians from northeast Iran.

Here are my MDLP K23b results (I'm 1/2 Tajik and 1/2 Pashtun), the Iranian sample here is from South Iran. I'd get an Herati Tajik or Persian from eastern Iran at a closer distance.


# Population Percent
1 South_Central_Asian 34.15
2 Caucasian 21.50
3 South_Indian 16.72
4 European_Hunters_Gatherers 10.30
5 Ancestral_Altaic 8.47
6 Amerindian 2.58
7 Near_East 2.13
8 Tungus-Altaic 1.84

Least-squares method.

Using 1 population approximation:
1 Afghan_Pushtun @ 6.022763
2 Pashtun_Afghani @ 6.598314
3 Tajik_Pomiri_Ishkashim @ 7.877693
4 Pakistani_Pushtun @ 10.038360
5 Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan @ 10.918867
6 Tajik_Pomiri_Rushan @ 11.797170
7 Uzbek_Afghan @ 13.621663
8 Tajik_Afghan @ 14.289532
9 Pathan @ 15.131264
10 Tajik_Yagnobi @ 15.695024
11 Parsi @ 16.078205
12 Burusho @ 18.395235
13 Jatt_Haryana @ 19.676146
14 Jatt_Pahari @ 20.610188
15 Iranian @ 22.572412
16 Punjabi_Gujjar @ 22.696201
17 Sindhi @ 24.821438
18 Jatt_Muslim @ 25.668371
19 Turkmen_Uzbekistan @ 25.870001
20 Mumbai_Jew @ 25.994358

Using 2 populations approximation:
1 50% Pakistani_Pushtun +50% Tajik_Pomiri_Shugnan @ 4.334452

Using 3 populations approximation:
1 50% Pathan +25% Tabassaran +25% Tajik_Pomiri_Ishkashim @ 3.331667

[Hadouken]

1. Afganistan is part of the Iranian Plateau. It is actually a major chunk of it.

2. Most pca plots are 2D anyway. Dodecad world9 is a really good pca for west asians and not just Europeans as well.

3..I don't want to be argumentative with you because I actually am fond of you as a person. Just saying that as a disclaimer.

4. If Levantines can be considered west asian, I don't see why afghans can't. Western Iranics and Turks cluster pretty much just as far from both, and Afghans have a lot of real west asian dna. Eastern West Asia is probably the best label for them considering their culture, history, genetic, and most importantly geography (go a look at a map of Asia and draw a line in the center of it. You will be in the middle of China and not near Afghanistan at all). Afghans are already considered "Middle Eastern" people by most in the West anyways, and Afghanistan seems to be the cut off of that generally, too.

so you jumped from not feeling iranic anymore and having not much in common with us straight to saying you are very west asian ...so what exactly do you want can you make up your mind ?

you are calling people out for no reason and making a riot for no reason lol

[Vyasa]

it doesn't matter what you feel man. You are an Iranic in the eyes of the world.

[Myanthropologies]

so you jumped from not feeling iranic anymore and having not much in common with us straight to saying you are very west asian ...so what exactly do you want can you make up your mind ?

you are calling people out for no reason and making a riot for no reason lol

Making a riot how? By just stating some thoughts I have? It's not my fault if others can't have a mature dialogue. I'm not calling anyone here names, nor saying offensive things to them.

I can't remember where I mentioned any names either. I never said I was talking about TA kurds and Persians, I said Internetkurds and Persians, which isn't limited to TA only.

And yes, I stopped feeling Iranic because of what people on anthroforums say. What's the point of feeling iranic when all other Iranics are apparently racially different from me and western iranics take the name in modern times?

[Hadouken]

Making a riot how? By just stating some thoughts I have? It's not my fault if others can't have a mature dialogue. I'm not calling anyone here names, nor saying offensive things to them.

I can't remember where I mentioned any names either. I never said I was talking about TA kurds and Persians, I said Internetkurds and Persians, which isn't limited to TA only.

And yes, I stopped feeling Iranic because of what people on anthroforums say.

nobody said anything though :lol: . I havent seeen any kurd or persian (still dont know why we get called as a couple ethnicity as if we are the same but okay ...) saying such things to you . it is your own thoughts that you seem to project on kurdish and persian members

[Registan]

Making a riot how? By just stating some thoughts I have? It's not my fault if others can't have a mature dialogue. I'm not calling anyone here names, nor saying offensive things to them.

I can't remember where I mentioned any names either. I never said I was talking about TA kurds and Persians, I said Internetkurds and Persians, which isn't limited to TA only.

And yes, I stopped feeling Iranic because of what people on anthroforums say. What's the point of feeling iranic when all other Iranics are apparently racially different from me and western iranics take the name in modern times?

Join this guy's UNITED NATIVES OF ARYANA movement, he wants to unite East Iranics, Nuristanis & Dards xD

http://www.pashtunforums.com/political-talk-/44433-united-natives-aryana-read.html

http://s3.postimg.org/vpja9b86b/rraaaryapng.png

[Myanthropologies]

Join this guy's UNITED NATIVES OF ARYANA movement, he wants to unite East Iranics, Nuristanis & Dards xD

http://www.pashtunforums.com/political-talk-/44433-united-natives-aryana-read.html

http://s3.postimg.org/vpja9b86b/rraaaryapng.png

Thanks, but no thanks. I'm not into nationalism. It's a very ugly thing.

[Kamal900]

Join this guy's UNITED NATIVES OF ARYANA movement, he wants to unite East Iranics, Nuristanis & Dards xD

http://www.pashtunforums.com/political-talk-/44433-united-natives-aryana-read.html

http://s3.postimg.org/vpja9b86b/rraaaryapng.png

It's very close to the UAE. Maybe I can go there by boat even though I'm not an ethnic Aryan, lol.

[Isleño]

I don't have anything to do with the proto-Iranics, they were white and I'm not. I don't have anything to do with Kurds or Persians either, genetically, apparently. They seem to have dibs on being "real iranics" in modern day.

When I grew up and before I took a DNA test, I used to feel very ethnically close to Persians and sort of ethnically close to Kurds. After taking a DNA test, I feel like a fake Iranic or knock off Iranic. Well, it wasn't just taking my dna test that makes me feel that way, it's what has been said to me on anthropology forums over the last year. Kurds and Persians on anthropology forums like to distance me from them, group me with Punjabis and even Gujaratis sometimes, and claim that they are closer to Southern Europeans than to me, or are an extension of mediterranian people. Or they will say they are west eurasian and that I'm not. It's kind of weird, because Persians and Kurds in person try to relate to me a lot and definitely consider me the same race as them and consider pashtuns similar to them in looks, but the ones on anthropology forums don't want anything to do with me, and I bet they don't want anything to do with me even more so now after viewing my ancestry results.

I try to tell myself that DNA doesn't matter, but it's hard to tell myself that sometimes even if I know it's very true, because everyone likes to put people in boxes and categories based on these numbers and think that they can just change a person's thought process and identity by one forum post.

The only South-Central Asian "Iranic" people that west iranics on forum boards seem to care about are Pamiri Tajiks, because of their association with Scythians, yet they even try to distance me from Pamiris. Pashtuns are just tossed aside as some pedophilic iranicized punjabis, and it further makes me feel like a fake iranic. It even makes me feel less close to the Persians and Kurds I know in person (ethnically).You could always just be American and be done with it.

[Freeroostah]

Well the thing is, I dont care about this on real life, Im talking about where I fall here on anthropology forums. My identity in real life is strictly american, and I feel closer to all Americans regardless of their race. But when I'm on geese anthropology forums, what race I am or what I am supposedly ethnically close to seems to be defined by genetics sometimes, how I look other times, and actual cultures other times.

Honestly I sounded a little dramatic in the opening post on purpose, because I wanted to start discussion, but it didn't end up how I wanted. It ended up being fighting that the Greeks were PIE lol

You should embrace your heritage in real life too bro!
Make your DNA results part of yourself and be proud of them!

[lameduck]

well you are iranic major chunk of Your ancestry is very Indo iranic its just that many indics from Indus Valley like Jatts also have lot of indo Iranic ancestry

[Pahli]

Thanks, but no thanks. I'm not into nationalism. It's a very ugly thing.

Nationalism over Islam 100%, no one says nationalism needs to be extreme like certain retards do it * cough cough * some Turks here.

[Hadouken]

well you are iranic major chunk of Your ancestry is very Indo iranic its just that many indics from Indus Valley like Jatts also have lot of indo Iranic ancestry

indians dont score any indoiranian from what I have seen . please prove your statement

[Babak]

Jatts have indo-aryan ancestry, not indo-iranian

[lameduck]

indians dont score any indoiranian from what I have seen . please prove your statement

my point was that just that some communities in North West South Asia have a pull toward South Central Asia and higher Gedrosia it doesnt mean that Pashtuns have suddenly become indians difference between Pashtun and average South Asian is still quite significant genetically.

BY Indo Iranic Ancestry I mean Gedrosia+Steppe

[Hadouken]

my point was that just that some communities in North West South Asia have a pull toward South Central Asia and higher Gedrosia it doesnt mean that Pashtuns have suddenly become indians difference between Pashtun and average South Asian is still quite significant genetically.

BY Indo Iranic Ancestry I mean Gedrosia+Steppe

I dont know if that qualifies as iranic ancestry because gedrosia and steppe are also scored by even south europeans etc. . on dna land I have not seen one single indian scoring indoiranian either . I think you are mixing things up . however ...I know what you are trying to say and what you mean

[Registan]

Jatts have indo-aryan ancestry, not indo-iranian

Indo-Aryan is a branch of Indo-Iranian so he is right.

And the Indo-Iranian component on DNA Land is based on Balochs, it's not really steppe-related.

see here, Scythian sample scores Indus Valley but not INdo-Iranian

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?215282-Myanthropologies-DNA-LAND-ancestry-results&p=4518265#post4518265

[Babak]

Indo-Aryan is a branch of Indo-Iranian so he is right.

And the Indo-Iranian component on DNA Land is based on Balochs, it's not really steppe-related.

see here, Scythian sample scores Indus Valley but not INdo-Iranian

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?215282-Myanthropologies-DNA-LAND-ancestry-results&p=4518265#post4518265

yea i knew that

[Demhat]

Are you sure about that bro?

i am pretty sure.

[Demhat]

The ancient West Iranic groups that first entered Iran more than 3000 years ago were pretty similar to central Asiatics than today's western Iranic peoples like Balochis, Persians and etc. Besides, being Iranic is just an ethno-linguistic grouping. I mean, Assyrians, who are Semites, genetically cluster the closest to Armenians, Kurds and other west Asiatics who are neither Afro-Asiatics or Semites. Arabians, who are central Semitic peoples native to Arabia, and Egyptians, who are not Semitic or Arabs, genetically cluster to one another than to other middle easterners.

Incorrect. West Iranic groups where born in West Iran to begin with. The forefathers of the West Iranic tribes came from the Yaz culture and merged with Kura Araxes culture. Yaz culture is located in Northeast Iran, not Central Asia.

Yaz culture was not yet West Iranic.

We have Iron Age sample from West Iran it is identical to modern West Iranics with the difference of having little less Steppic admixture than modern Iranics.

Yaz Culture would look like 65% Iran_Neo/CHG 15% Anatolian_Levant Neolithic and 20% EHG.

[Demhat]

Not all Levantines are genetically west Asiatics. Palestinians, Jordanians and Syrians are genetically south-west Asiatics, and they cluster the closest to Arabians, North and East Africans while the genetic isolated groups of the Levant like the Druze and the Maronites cluster to west Asia. Yes, Afghans in general are not seen any differently from MENA peoples in general. Personally, Pashtuns have high self respect and honor than their Iranian and Turkish counterparts.

Not correct at all. Syrians, Palestinians and even Jordanians cluster just inbetween Mesopotamia/Iranian Palteau/Anatolia on one hand and Arabian Peninsula on the other, with Gaza Palestinians being a little shifted towards Egyptians.

You can divide the "Near East" roughly into three sections. A Anatolian_Mesopotamian_IranianPLateau_South Caucasian section. A Levantine section and a Arabian section.

[Demhat]

Afaik, the "significant gap" is mainly because Persians from eastern Iran (Khorasan, Semnan) are not included in DNA results. The DNA results of Iranians mainly just includes Iranians from central Iran and western Iran. If it were to include to genetic results of Khorasanis, then they would complete the continuum between Afghanistan and central Iran. Do you happen to have any data regarding people from eastern Iran (Khorasan, Semanan) and see how they compare to East Iranics (Pashtuns, Pamiris) and Baloches?

This is only partly correct. "Eastern Persians" as you call them have been tested. I have seen Persian samples all the way to the East and Northeast (Khorasan) province and they were just a little more EHG ASI/East Eurasian shifted Persians but not significantly more, they still form a cluster. Southeast Iranian on the other hand do cluster a little bit different but they are not really Persians but Baloch.

However as I said anyways I have no problems calling Pashtuns, Pamiris/Yaghnobi, Baloch and Turkmens Eastern West Asians or Iranian Plateau people. I just thought Western_Central Asians would be more fitting. How you call it is up to you.

[Leto]

Read my comment here, especially the bolded part.


the Iranics were not all between Ossetians and East Europeans. Some Proto_Indo_Iranian cultures were. But Iranics had a little more diversity. Some were inbetween East Euros and North Caucasians, others were very similar to Tajiks, Pamiris, Pashtuns. Ancient West Iranics were almost carbon copies of Kurds, South Caspian Iranics (Mazandarani, Gilaki, Semnani) Azeris or Persians.
Well, you identify as Muslim and Middle Eastern and don't want to associate with white people or Europeans (whatever you call them), so no wonder you deny any connection between Proto-Iranians and Europeans. But the Proto-Iranians (Sintashta/Andronovo) were not Middle Eastern. Achaemenid Persians might have been Middle Eastern (although probably with a higher amount of white blood than nowadays), but Sintashta people certainly weren't.

[Babak]

Well, you identify as Muslim and Middle Eastern and don't want to associate with white people or Europeans (whatever you call them), so no wonder you deny any connection between Proto-Iranians and Europeans. But the Proto-Iranians (Sintashta/Andronovo) were not Middle Eastern. Achaemenid Persians might have been Middle Eastern (although probably with a higher amount of white blood than nowadays), but Sintashta people certainly weren't.

Proto-west iranics were most probably highly aryanized BMAC people. Not all of them had "Lots of white blood" (whatever the fuck that means), and they certainly were not all blue eyed either.

Modern day Iranians are a mix between Iran_CHL+Pamiri/Pashtun. 60% native-40% Indo-iranian. It was genetically more western than previous Iran_Neolithic which more Baluch/Brahui-like. Modern day Iranians seem to have some extra ASI/South Asian compared to Iran_Chalcolithic. They got this extra South Asian admixture from South Central Asian Indo-Iranians (BMAC) which were Pamiri/Pashtun-like.

Achaemenid persians were most likely half native and half Indo-iranian. Anatolian farmer and near eastern increased as the rest were absorbed mixing with elamites.

This is the average, but obviously some will score higher than others. Yamnaya was 50% Iran-CHL btw as well as Andronovo being more south-asian shifted.

Iranians

66.9% Iran_ChL
24.6% Steppe_MLBA
5.6% Kharia
1.9% She
1.0% Yoruba

distance=4.9775

[Leto]

Proto-west iranics were most probably highly aryanized BMAC people. Not all of them had "Lots of white blood" (whatever the fuck that means), and they certainly were not all blue eyed either.

Modern day Iranians are a mix between Iran_CHL+Pamiri/Pashtun. 60% native-40% Indo-iranian. It was genetically more western than previous Iran_Neolithic which more Baluch/Brahui-like. Modern day Iranians seem to have some extra ASI/South Asian compared to Iran_Chalcolithic. They got this extra South Asian admixture from South Central Asian Indo-Iranians (BMAC) which were Pamiri/Pashtun-like.

Achaemenid persians were most likely half native and half Indo-iranian. Anatolian farmer and near eastern increased as the rest were absorbed mixing with elamites.

This is the average, but obviously some will score higher than others. Yamnaya was 50% Iran-CHL btw as well as Andronovo being more south-asian shifted.

Iranians

66.9% Iran_ChL
24.6% Steppe_MLBA
5.6% Kharia
1.9% She
1.0% Yoruba

distance=4.9775
Interesting. Do you have any Eastern Iranian kit numbers? I'm talking about Khorasan in particular.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/IranOldProvinceKhorasan.png/519px-IranOldProvinceKhorasan.png
Though I was talking about the Sintashta culture, not ancient Persians or West Iranians.

[Babak]

Interesting. Do you have any Eastern Iranian kit numbers? I'm talking about Khorasan in particular.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/48/IranOldProvinceKhorasan.png/519px-IranOldProvinceKhorasan.png
Though I was talking about the Sintashta culture, not ancient Persians or West Iranians.

I had some. Gotta look for them, ill let you know

[Myanthropologies]

This is only partly correct. "Eastern Persians" as you call them have been tested. I have seen Persian samples all the way to the East and Northeast (Khorasan) province and they were just a little more EHG ASI/East Eurasian shifted Persians but not significantly more, they still form a cluster. Southeast Iranian on the other hand do cluster a little bit different but they are not really Persians but Baloch.

However as I said anyways I have no problems calling Pashtuns, Pamiris/Yaghnobi, Baloch and Turkmens Eastern West Asians or Iranian Plateau people. I just thought Western_Central Asians would be more fitting. How you call it is up to you.

Actually, there was a member on here named the caspian, and he was pretty genetically close to pashtuns. He was probably eastern persian. The genetic difference barely has anything to do with the ASI, the main reason is because afghans lack a lot of the Natufian Persians have.

[Myanthropologies]

Proto-west iranics were most probably highly aryanized BMAC people. Not all of them had "Lots of white blood" (whatever the fuck that means), and they certainly were not all blue eyed either.

Modern day Iranians are a mix between Iran_CHL+Pamiri/Pashtun. 60% native-40% Indo-iranian. It was genetically more western than previous Iran_Neolithic which more Baluch/Brahui-like. Modern day Iranians seem to have some extra ASI/South Asian compared to Iran_Chalcolithic. They got this extra South Asian admixture from South Central Asian Indo-Iranians (BMAC) which were Pamiri/Pashtun-like.

Achaemenid persians were most likely half native and half Indo-iranian. Anatolian farmer and near eastern increased as the rest were absorbed mixing with elamites.

This is the average, but obviously some will score higher than others. Yamnaya was 50% Iran-CHL btw as well as Andronovo being more south-asian shifted.

Iranians

66.9% Iran_ChL
24.6% Steppe_MLBA
5.6% Kharia
1.9% She
1.0% Yoruba

distance=4.9775

I found this on eurogenes

Pathan: Iranian_Neolithic / Epipaleolithic 54 (Iran_Neolithic 23.15, Iran_Late_Neolithic 17.85, Iran_Hotu 13.04), Steppe 34.1 (Yamnaya 14.15, Andronovo 19.95), Agta 11.8

Kalash: Iranian_Neolithic / Epipaleolithic 52.65 (Iran_N 38.6 + Iran_Hotu 10.6 + Iran_LN 3.45), Steppe 37.75 ( Yamnaya 17.5, Afanasievo 16.5, Andronovo 3.8), Agta 9.57

There are no afghan pashtun samples there, but still interesting to see pak pashtuns and dards.

[Gangrel]

Define "significant" gap though? I still cluster relatively close to West Asians on a PCA and don't see how Pashtuns and Tajiks are so different from Western Asians and Western Iranics.

http://i.imgur.com/ijadifQ.jpg

Are Chechens and Lezgins not West Asians too? Why do i plot closer to some supposedly west asian groups than other supposedly west asian groups do if I'm not one?

Over 60% of my DNA is west asian as west asian one gets

Western Central Asian is another bogus term, if anything, they're eastern Western Asians, or south central asians.

the rest of what you said, I agree with.

How'd you plot yourself on the graph bro? New to this shit

[Milo]

No u r a white proto iranic steppeboi, kk?

[Rethel]

Bump

[Rethel]

After taking a DNA test, I feel like a fake Iranic or knock off Iranic.

It witness only, that you are perfectly fine and sane.
Just rediscover now your G-roots and everything will be fine.
hence you have such feeling and you live abroad, it will not
interrupts you in your way to the real identity...

[Rethel]

I try to tell myself that DNA doesn't matter, but it's hard to tell myself that sometimes even if I know it's very true,

Of course that matters, becasue it puts a man into right true unfasyfied
way making life perfectly coherent, rooted and more goalfull. Finaly man
knows who he is, regardless lack of memory or historical event, which
putted you where you are know. More than that - a man has a great
opportunity to not decieve next generation for which it will be normal
since the beginning of the wornd... and line.

[Myanthropologies]

How'd you plot yourself on the graph bro? New to this shit

I got ibericus to do it

[Wanderer]

I try to tell myself that DNA doesn't matter, but it's hard to tell myself that sometimes even if I know it's very true, because everyone likes to put people in boxes and categories based on these numbers and think that they can just change a person's thought process and identity by one forum post.

DNA test results don't matter (in most cases, that is, where it doesn't refute your actual documented ancestry). Otherwise, what you know about your own ancestry is what matters.

[Óttar]

What are you then? You seem Persianate to me.

[Konpirike]

How'd you plot yourself on the graph bro? New to this shit

What map is that? How can I see where I end up on this map? I would like to see where I cluster according to that map.

[Konpirike]

Define "significant" gap though? I still cluster relatively close to West Asians on a PCA and don't see how Pashtuns and Tajiks are so different from Western Asians and Western Iranics.

http://i.imgur.com/ijadifQ.jpg

Are Chechens and Lezgins not West Asians too? Why do i plot closer to some supposedly west asian groups than other supposedly west asian groups do if I'm not one?

Over 60% of my DNA is west asian as west asian one gets

Western Central Asian is another bogus term, if anything, they're eastern Western Asians, or south central asians.

the rest of what you said, I agree with.

How can I use that PCA map, I want to see where I cluster?

[Rethel]

DNA test results don't matter (in most cases, that is, where it doesn't refute your actual documented ancestry). Otherwise, what you know about your own ancestry is what matters.

:picard2:

Are people who knows nothing.
Are people who knows something,
but are disgusted by it - as you are.

He just get the knowlegde and he knows.
The same as he would be told since the early childhood.

So, you are not only talking a nonsense, and
stories for whoresons (as usuall), but you are
contradicting yourself in the very statement.


What are you then? You seem Persianate to me.

He's obviously a Pontian or kartvelo-pontian.