Myheritage result: half Reggio Calabria, half Sicilian from Messina

[Sikeliot]

Greek 43.8%
Sardinian 14.6%
Ashkenazi Jews 8.4%
Irish, Scottish, and Welsh 3.1%
Middle East 12.5%
North Africa 11.1%
West Asia 6.5%


So this is another one that is "normal" in that it is 30% or so MENA and the rest European with the majority being Greek.

[Iloko]

Have you seen any Sicilians or Southern Italians who scored some N&W Euro?

N&W Euro would probably be much more common in Spaniard populations correct?

[Sikeliot]

Have you seen any Sicilians or Southern Italians who scored some N&W Euro?

N&W Euro would probably be much more common in Spaniard populations correct?

Yes. This is the second one I have seen to score it of about 15.

[Isleño]

Greek 43.8%
Sardinian 14.6%
Ashkenazi Jews 8.4%
Irish, Scottish, and Welsh 3.1%
Middle East 12.5%
North Africa 11.1%
West Asia 6.5%


So this is another one that is "normal" in that it is 30% or so MENA and the rest European with the majority being Greek.
Speaking of MENA, I was just reading this study about MENA in Europe by Capelli et al. 2009. It mentions Southern Italy near Lucera/Apulia as well as Sicily. Check it out,

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947089/

[Sikeliot]

Speaking of MENA, I was just reading this study about MENA in Europe by Capelli et al. 2009. It mentions Southern Italy near Lucera/Apulia as well as Sicily. Check it out,

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947089/


Yes. The mainland south will have less as will the east coast of Sicily. See the map below. The Arab conquest barely affected the east coast, with the exception of inland areas, but the western part of Messina province did receive the influences and these results show it.

http://lostislamichistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Aghlabid.png

[Isleño]

Yes. The mainland south will have less as will the east coast of Sicily. See the map below. The Arab conquest barely affected the east coast, with the exception of inland areas, but the western part of Messina province did receive the influences and these results show it.

http://lostislamichistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/Aghlabid.png

Yes, I know. Also, don't forget Frederick II removed the Arabs from Sicily to Lucera.

[Sikeliot]

Yes, I know. Also, don't forget Frederick II removed the Arabs from Sicily to Lucera.

We don't know if that is entirely true, but what I do know is that a lot of people had assimilated and intermixed by that time, and people were given the option to convert to Christianity. It seems many did, due to the genetic structure we see today.

[Enflamme]

30% of extra-european blood.. this is very, very big.

How can we consider these people as European with this kind of result ...

[Berlko2]

I thought Sicilians were at most 15% non-European. How common is 30% non-European blood in Sicily?

[RN97]

30% of extra-european blood.. this is very, very big.

How can we consider these people as European with this kind of result ...

It's all about the algorithm. They don't have "southern Italian" in their algorithm, thereby producing such results. The average Sicilians are slightly less European than the average Greeks. If they only had Tunisian and Norwegian in their algorithm, the French would probably come out as 90% Norwegian, 10% Algerian.

[Sikeliot]

It's all about the algorithm. They don't have "southern Italian" in their algorithm, thereby producing such results. The average Sicilians are slightly less European than the average Greeks. If they only had Tunisian and Norwegian in their algorithm, the French would probably come out as 90% Norwegian, 10% Algerian.


Even with a Greek reference the MENA is still 30%.

[kingjohn]

30% of extra-european blood.. this is very, very big.

How can we consider these people as European with this kind of result ...


a}culture
b}Greek blood in there veins https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GsKZl1QMXss :thumb001:

[RN97]

Even with a Greek reference the MENA is still 30%.

That must either be a very northern Greek one, or the Sicilian is more MENA leaning than average. PCA plots show that Greek + 30% MENA makes little sense.

[Ylla]

Do you think the ashkenazi is real?

[kingjohn]

you only score 1% it is probably noise
me and longbowman are the only jews here :)

regards
adam


p.s
you are to pretty :cool:
you are gentile from head to toe :)

[Sikeliot]

That must either be a very northern Greek one, or the Sicilian is more MENA leaning than average. PCA plots show that Greek + 30% MENA makes little sense.



It makes sense when Greek is mainland.

[Voskos]

do you have results from Napoli?

[Sikeliot]

This Sicilian is less exotic than about half of the results I have but I do have one that is over 80% European and it's from inland.

[Isleño]

We don't know if that is entirely true, but what I do know is that a lot of people had assimilated and intermixed by that time, and people were given the option to convert to Christianity. It seems many did, due to the genetic structure we see today.

Of course it's true. It's recorded history. I'm sure he didn't get them all out before some assimilated, which we see in modern genetics, but he got them out eventually. There was a recorded Arab community in Apulia in 1336, compromised of Sicilian Arabs. However, the bulk of the MENA in Sicilians is from ancient times (possibly Phoenicians, or other ancient sources) rather than the more recent Moorish invasion (4.4% E1b1b, 3.2% J1).

[Isleño]

30% of extra-european blood.. this is very, very big.

How can we consider these people as European with this kind of result ...
This is all exaggerated. Sicilians average 11.9% Southwest Asian and 4.1% Northwest African in Dodecad 12b, which equals 16%. These are the two components that make MENA's significantly different from Europeans since the rest of their components are the same Neolithic Mediterranean and Caucasus/Gedrosia found in Europeans, minus the extra percent SSA, that does not exist in Europeans, or is at least totally minor to less than 2%. The significant WHG in Europeans is also a difference between Europeans and MENA's, which Sicilians have, albeit not as much as other Europeans. Sure, Sicilians are at the periphery of the European cluster, but this idea that they are not Europeans is nonsense. If that's the case, we might as well call anyone with Neolithic Mediterranean admixture as non-European, but that would make no European a European.

[Isleño]

I thought Sicilians were at most 15% non-European. How common is 30% non-European blood in Sicily?
Yes, that's right. Dodecad has them at 16% average (11.9% Southwest Asian/4.1 Northwest African) So they would be like 84% European and 16% MENA. Similar to the results on 23andme results. Take a look:

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=41342

[Isleño]

It's all about the algorithm. They don't have "southern Italian" in their algorithm, thereby producing such results. The average Sicilians are slightly less European than the average Greeks. If they only had Tunisian and Norwegian in their algorithm, the French would probably come out as 90% Norwegian, 10% Algerian.

Exactly. Then you'd have some Apricians running around claiming the French are 10% North African, an exaggeration. Much like we are seeing with some Apricians and this MENA Sicilian thing.

[Berlko2]

Yes, that's right. Dodecad has them at 16% average (11.9% Southwest Asian/4.1 Northwest African) So they would be like 84% European and 16% MENA. Similar to the results on 23andme results. Take a look:

http://www.forumbiodiversity.com/showthread.php?t=41342

If 16% is the average, there must be an important share of population with more than 30% MENA. Buddy Balastro comes to my mind when I think about what would they look like.

[Sikeliot]

do you have results from Napoli?

No.

[Isleño]

If 16% is the average, there must be an important share of population with more than 30% MENA. Buddy Balastro comes to my mind when I think about what would they look like.

There may be a few, but I wouldn't say that they were numerous, because I don't think they are. There are also Sicilians with MENA in the single digits Such as 4%. I think the bulk of them probably have between 6%-14%, from what I've seen. On the thread I posted, the bulk seemed to be in that 6%-14% range, with a few that were low like 4%-5% and a few that were high like 16%-18% and there was like one with 20%. So again, I think the bulk of them have like between 6%-14%. Dodecad has a sample of 15 and calculated 16% total MENA.

However, in the link I posted, there are 58 Sicilian results and I calculated the MENA and it came to 522.4. To find the average, you divide the sum by the count (number of results). So 522.4÷58=9.00689, so the average among the 23andme results on the thread I posted is 9% total MENA. This sample is almost 4x larger than the Dodecad sample. So with the larger sample, there is actually less total MENA than Dodecad's 16%. 9% total MENA is not that much. 9% is a good median between that 6%-14% range I gave above.

But then, that would be 91% Italian+9% MENA. If we are to account for the MENA in the Italian reference population (Bergamo/Tuscany) of 23andme, the median percent MENA is around 6%, add that to the 9% and you are back to 15%. So Sicilians really have 15% total MENA. That would put them at 85% European, 15% MENA. Back to my first prediction of 84% European, 16% MENA based on the total found in the Dodecad results.

[Sikeliot]

There may be a few, but I wouldn't say that they were numerous, because I don't think they are. There are also Sicilians with MENA in the single digits Such as 4%. I think the bulk of them probably have between 6%-14%, from what I've seen. On the thread I posted, the bulk seemed to be in that 6%-14% range, with a few that were low like 4%-5% and a few that were high like 16%-18% and there was like one with 20%. So again, I think the bulk of them have like between 6%-14%. Dodecad has a sample of 15 and calculated 16% total MENA.

However, in the link I posted, there are 58 Sicilian results and I calculated the MENA and it came to 522.4. To find the average, you divide the sum by the count (number of results). So 522.4÷58=9.00689, so the average among the 23andme results on the thread I posted is 9% total MENA. This sample is almost 4x larger than the Dodecad sample. So with the larger sample, there is actually less total MENA than Dodecad's 16%. 9% total MENA is not that much. 9% is a good median between that 6%-14% range I gave above.


You are going by GEDmatch calculators with components, not ones comparing people to distinct ethnicities. This is comparing apples and oranges. But on Ancestry and MyHeritage, even when mainland Italian and Greek samples are used, there is an excess MENA that is typically 25-35% and can be as low as 20% and as high as 45%.

Unlike you I group Caucasus with MENA, not European.

For comparison on MyHeritage, a Cretan was around 20%. GEDmatch would come out similar for them as for a Sicilian.

[Isleño]

You are going by GEDmatch calculators with components, not ones comparing people to distinct ethnicities. This is comparing apples and oranges. But on Ancestry and MyHeritage, even when mainland Italian and Greek samples are used, there is an excess MENA that is typically 25-35% and can be as low as 20% and as high as 45%.

Unlike you I group Caucasus with MENA, not European.

For comparison on MyHeritage, a Cretan was around 20%. GEDmatch would come out similar for them as for a Sicilian.
But it's not apples and oranges. We don't know when and how the bulk of the SW Asian component came to Sicily, so comparing them to modern ethnicities is a red herring argument. The point blank is, Sicilians are like completely like Bergamo (North Italy), but with the addition of about 9% more MENA and a little more Caucasus. C'mon man, MyHeritage is bullshit and Ancestry.com test has more holes in it than a colander.

You are inflating the true MENA.

We can look at the findings of professional studies, and it shows Sicilians to be exactly like a North Italian (Bergamo) but with added Caucasus, SW Asian and NW African. Take a look for yourself:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Admixtures-Lazaridis.png

[Isleño]

Unlike you I group Caucasus with MENA, not European.Thats where you go wrong. The Caucasus is not Middle East or North Africa. It's it's own thing. It's found in most all Europeans and is not counted as MENA in genetic studies.

If you take a Lebanese, add 20% WHG, remove a significant portion of Caucuses and remove a bunch of the SW Asian and the SSA, you'd have a Sicilian. Remove about half the MENA of the Sicilian (SwAsian/NW African) and add a little more Caucasus, you'd have a North Italian (Bergamo). Simple. You are inflating the true MENA.

[Sikeliot]

The point blank is, Sicilians are like completely like Bergamo (North Italy), but with the addition of about 9% more MENA.

No... on most GEDmatch calculators Sicilians are halfway between North Italians and Lebanese.

Ancestry and MyHeritage have a Roman and mainland Greek sample and EVEN WITH THESE the MENA elements in Sicily add up. In Apulia, they come to under 10% on those calculators, making Apulia 90%+ European.

[Sikeliot]

And don't misquote Lazaridis et al. It says Sicilians, Ashkenazim, and Maltese are so outlying they don't even fall into genetic Europe.

[Isleño]

You are going by GEDmatch calculators with components, not ones comparing people to distinct ethnicities. This is comparing apples and oranges. But on Ancestry and MyHeritage, even when mainland Italian and Greek samples are used, there is an excess MENA that is typically 25-35% and can be as low as 20% and as high as 45%.

Unlike you I group Caucasus with MENA, not European.

For comparison on MyHeritage, a Cretan was around 20%. GEDmatch would come out similar for them as for a Sicilian.
23andme is not labeling the Caucasus as MENA, because it's a component found in nearly all Europeans. A Sicilian has just a little more Caucasus than a North Italian (Bergamo), and just over double the true MENA (SW Asian/NW African) than a North Italian. That's why they list Sicilians as, for example 85% European, 15% MENA.

[Sikeliot]

23andme is not labeling the Caucasus as MENA, because it's a component found in nearly all Europeans. A Sicilian has just a little more Caucasus than a North Italian (Bergamo), and just over double the true MENA (SW Asian/NW African) than a North Italian. That's why they list Sicilians as, for example 85% European, 15% MENA.

Sicilians even if you remove the MENA, they will not have nearly enough North European to plot with a North Italian. They wouldn't even have as much as a mainland Greek. Removing the MENA would also scale up the Caucasian too high for a North Italian, as it's already much higher now.

Removing the MENA from Apulians would, however, make them close to Albanians and mainland Greeks, which they're already close to now. And it might make SOME Campanians into Tuscans.

[Isleño]

No... on most GEDmatch calculators Sicilians are halfway between North Italians and Lebanese.

Ancestry and MyHeritage have a Roman and mainland Greek sample and EVEN WITH THESE the MENA elements in Sicily add up. In Apulia, they come to under 10% on those calculators, making Apulia 90%+ European.

But that's where components come in. Looking at the distance on a PCA only is inconclusive. And MyAncestry nor Ancestry.com has a good reputation. They use a less reliable molecular clock method than 23andme.

What exactly is a North Italian? Well in a nutshell, a North Italian has just a little less Caucasus and SW Asian and a lot less NW African than a Sicilian. So again, you are comparing Sicilians to modern populations. As a member here said, if a calculator said the French are 90% Norwegian and 10% Algerian, according to how you are interpreting these results, if you'd use this method, you'd have to make an argument that the French were 10% Algerian, which they are not. It's just an intermediate position, it doesn't have to mean they are mixed with a certain ethnicity to be who they are. That's where Sicilians are. They are basically North Italians with elevated Caucasus, SW Asian and NW African. Most all Europeans have Caucasus so it's not some foreign admixture to Europeans, it's actually a component of Europeans. So counting it as MENA would mean most all Europeans are part MENA, which they are not, so that's a faulty method of identification. But what is foreign to most Europeans is SW Asian and NW African. And that's what makes Europeans different from modern MENA's, along with the absence of WHG and the presence of significant SSA.

[Isleño]

And don't misquote Lazaridis et al. It says Sicilians, Ashkenazim, and Maltese are so outlying they don't even fall into genetic Europe.

I never misquoted Lazaridis. I posted a link to his admixture run to show you Sicilians were like North Italians, but with slightly more Caucasus and just over double SW Asian and more NW African. You misunderstood me. But calm down, no need to get bent out of shape, it's just a debate.

[Isleño]

Sicilians even if you remove the MENA, they will not have nearly enough North European to plot with a North Italian. They wouldn't even have as much as a mainland Greek. Removing the MENA would also scale up the Caucasian too high for a North Italian, as it's already much higher now.

Removing the MENA from Apulians would, however, make them close to Albanians and mainland Greeks, which they're already close to now. And it might make SOME Campanians into Tuscans.
I'm not using Apulians, because they are not in the core of Europe like a North Italians. They are like Sicilians, toward the periphery of Europe rather than the core of Europe.

The added Caucasus has pushed out some of the WHG, and the added true MENA (SW Asian/NW African) have done so as well. Like I said, a Sicilian is a North Italian, but with more Caucasus and just over double the SW Asian and the addition of more NW African.

[Isleño]

And don't misquote Lazaridis et al. It says Sicilians, Ashkenazim, and Maltese are so outlying they don't even fall into genetic Europe.Genetic Europe is the core. The periphery is where Sicilians are.

[Sikeliot]

I'm not using Apulians, because they are not in the core of Europe like a North Italians. They are like Sicilians, toward the periphery of Europe rather than the core of Europe.

The added Caucasus has pushed out some of the WHG, and the added true MENA (SW Asian/NW African) have done so as well. Like I said, a Sicilian is a North Italian, but with more Caucasus and just over double the SW Asian and the addition of more NW African.

My point is Apulians are not by any means as peripheral as Sicilians, nor are most people in Campania. The periphery is really only Sicily, Calabria, Malta, Crete, the Dodecanese, and Ashkenazim.

Either way, on a modern PCA plot, Sicilians end up halfway between northern Italians and Lebanese, so this to me doesn't sound like "north Italians with slightly more MENA" any more than it is "Lebanese with slight Italic."

[Berlko2]

There may be a few, but I wouldn't say that they were numerous, because I don't think they are. There are also Sicilians with MENA in the single digits Such as 4%. I think the bulk of them probably have between 6%-14%, from what I've seen. On the thread I posted, the bulk seemed to be in that 6%-14% range, with a few that were low like 4%-5% and a few that were high like 16%-18% and there was like one with 20%. So again, I think the bulk of them have like between 6%-14%. Dodecad has a sample of 15 and calculated 16% total MENA.

However, in the link I posted, there are 58 Sicilian results and I calculated the MENA and it came to 522.4. To find the average, you divide the sum by the count (number of results). So 522.4÷58=9.00689, so the average among the 23andme results on the thread I posted is 9% total MENA. This sample is almost 4x larger than the Dodecad sample. So with the larger sample, there is actually less total MENA than Dodecad's 16%. 9% total MENA is not that much. 9% is a good median between that 6%-14% range I gave above.

But then, that would be 91% Italian+9% MENA. If we are to account for the MENA in the Italian reference population (Bergamo/Tuscany) of 23andme, the median percent MENA is around 6%, add that to the 9% and you are back to 15%. So Sicilians really have 15% total MENA. That would put them at 85% European, 15% MENA. Back to my first prediction of 84% European, 16% MENA based on the total found in the Dodecad results.

Pretty accurate. I've known Sicilians and they didn't look so different than other mainland central Italians.

[Sikeliot]

Pretty accurate. I've known Sicilians and they didn't look so different than other mainland central Italians.

Well, genetically they're shifted toward MENA peoples. They don't even plot similarly to mainland Greeks.

[Sikeliot]

If it really was true they were "only slightly" more MENA than central Italians and mainland Greeks, then if those are the Italian and Greek samples on MyHeritage, they should be scoring 90%+ combined Italian and Greek exactly as Apulians do. Apulians score 70% Greek and then the rest Italian, with 10% or less MENA.

But Sicilians don't score like this.

[Isleño]

My point is Apulians are not by any means as peripheral as Sicilians, nor are most people in Campania. The periphery is really only Sicily, Calabria, Malta, Crete, the Dodecanese, and Ashkenazim.

Either way, on a modern PCA plot, Sicilians end up halfway between northern Italians and Lebanese, so this to me doesn't sound like "north Italians with slightly more MENA" any more than it is "Lebanese with slight Italic."
Yes, well we know the base population for Sicilians before the admixture event was certainly not Levantine, so it's more likely to say North Italian with additives, rather than Levantines with subtractions.

Using any population that is not in the core European cluster doesn't really make much sense for a European DNA vs. MENA DNA argument, so that's why I'm not using any Southern Italian populations for my argument. Even North Italians have too much MENA (5.8% Dodecad) for the best comparison for such an argument, but I used North Italian as an example because at least they are still Italian, have closer percentages of components to Sicilians than other Europeans in the core cluster and basically just because it's the best example to use as a pre-extra MENA admixture event base, to find out how Sicilians came to drift away from this Italian population located in the European core cluster.

As for Sicily's position on a PCA plot, it just means they have enough SW Asian and Caucasus to put them at an intermediate position. It doesn't necessarily mean Sicilians are half Levantine. Remember, much of these ancestries in these populations are ancient and ancient populations usually are not the same genetically to modern populations. If I take a Dominican of 75% Iberian descent and 25% SSA, he'll plot near a Mozabite, because of similar Caucasoid/Negroid percentages without being mixed with or completely of Mozabite ancestry. It's the same thing here. Even modern Caucasians (Caucasus) have 10% SW Asian today. We don't know if the bulk of the extra SW Asian in Sicilians came from Anatolia, the Caucasus or the Levant, in the case of Sicily. North Italians have 6% SW Asian, so we know at least 6% in Sicilians came from the same admixture event as North Italy. Sicily has only 6% more SW Asian than North Italians in the same calculator. Sicily-11.9%, N. Italy-5.8% Dodecad.

And the SW Asian goes up the further down you go in the peninsula, indicating an ancient admixture event in later waves. It's likely the 6% of the 12% of Sicilian's SW Asian is from ancient Anatolia, same as North Italy. We just don't know if the other 6% is from Anatolia, the Levantine or the Caucasus in ancient times. We know Phoenicians are part of the puzzle, but we don't know how many puzzle pieces they contributed. It could have came from extra Anatolian. Who knows.

[Isleño]

Pretty accurate. I've known Sicilians and they didn't look so different than other mainland central Italians.

Thanks. I try to get this right you know. It takes lots of reading, searching and brainstorming. Basically, Sicilians are around 85% European, 15% true MENA.

[Sikeliot]

Yes, well we know the base population for Sicilians before the admixture event was certainly not Levantine, so it's more likely to say North Italian with additives, rather than Levantines with subtractions.

Using any population that is not in the core European cluster doesn't really make much sense for a European DNA vs. MENA DNA argument, so that's why I'm not using any Southern Italian populations for my argument. Even North Italians have too much MENA (5.8% Dodecad) for the best comparison for such an argument, but I used North Italian as an example because at least they are still Italian, have closer percentages of components to Sicilians than other Europeans in the core cluster and basically just because it's the best example to use as a pre-extra MENA admixture event base, to find out how Sicilians came to drift away from this Italian population located in the European core cluster.

They don't. Sicilians come out more like mainland Greeks with both additions and subtractions, North Italians are WAY off in terms of Caucasus and North European. Mainland Greeks are just off with regards to North Euro and MENA but the difference is smaller. It makes zero sense to assume the Sicilian population ever plotted as far north as mainland Greeks do now, let alone northern Italians.

Even if you removed all of the MENA from Sicilians, the rest of the components would still not be similar to northern Italians. And if you're arguing they are you should be providing proof by analyzing the amount of the other components.

Sicilians now score much more Caucasian than do North Italians. Without the MENA, it'd be even higher of a disparity, and the North Euro would never be nearly as high.

I don't get why you aren't trying to model pre-MENA Sicilians as Albanians or mainland Greeks which makes much more sense.

[Isleño]

Well, genetically they're shifted toward MENA peoples. They don't even plot similarly to mainland Greeks.
They don't plot that far from Greeks though. In a similar area as them, just a little more south. But yes, Sicilians are more MENA shifted than Central Italians (who are 2.3% NW African, 8.7% SW Asian). Sicilians have 1.8% more NW African and 3.2% more SW Asian.

[Sikeliot]

Dodecad K12b gives them this:

Sicily:
Caucasus: 36.54
Atlantic-Med: 30.03
North Euro: 11.91
SW Asian: 11.91
North Africa: 4.10
Gedrosia: 4.5

North Italians:
Caucasus: 22.78
Atlantic-Med: 41.16
North Europe: 23.68
Gedrosia: 5.69
SW Asian: 5.59

The disparities in the Atlantic-Med, North Euro, and Caucasus CANNOT be accounted for by the difference in the MENA. Sicilians never could have been like modern North Italians.

[Sikeliot]

They don't plot that far from Greeks though. In a similar area as them, just a little more south. But yes, Sicilians are more MENA shifted than Central Italians (who are 2.3% NW African, 8.7% SW Asian). Sicilians have 1.8% more NW African and 3.2% more SW Asian.

Sicilians plot shifted toward the Levant when compared to mainland Greeks, whom are closer to Albanians and halfway to Bulgaria.

It is mathematically impossible that they were ever like modern North Italians. I refuse to continue arguing it with you.

[Isleño]

If it really was true they were "only slightly" more MENA than central Italians and mainland Greeks, then if those are the Italian and Greek samples on MyHeritage, they should be scoring 90%+ combined Italian and Greek exactly as Apulians do. Apulians score 70% Greek and then the rest Italian, with 10% or less MENA.

But Sicilians don't score like this.
Stay away from MyHeritage. Not a good reputation. Stick with 23andme, more accurate. Sicilians score mainly 6%-14% MENA on average and the rest is European. Even Dodecad puts Sicilians only 1.8% NW African and 3.2% SW Asian more than Central Italians. But that's not my argument here about peripheral populations.

[Sikeliot]

If we took out the North African and SW Asian entirely, Sicilians would roughly be:

Caucasus: 36.54*1.1191*1.0410 = 42.57
Atlantic-Med: 30.03*1.1191*1.0410 = 34.98
North Euro: 11.91*1.1191*1.0410 = 13.87
Gedrosia: 4.5*1.1191*1.0410 = 5.24

plus trace amounts of the rest. Does this look a damn thing like North Italians? NO. It wouldn't plot with any people in existence now.

[Sikeliot]

Stay away from MyHeritage. Not a good reputation. Stick with 23andme, more accurate.

Well on there, the most MENA any European can score is the 30% maximum I've seen in a Sicilian from Messina. The next highest are 20% in a few Sicilians and Cretans.

I calculated an average and the average Sicilian score for MENA was like 12-16% depending on adding new people into the sample, but removing this DOES NOT turn them into North Italians, see above.

[Sikeliot]

Even if you removed the MENA, it wouldn't plot Sicilians with mainland Greeks because the North European is much too low.

[Isleño]

They don't. Sicilians come out more like mainland Greeks with both additions and subtractions, North Italians are WAY off in terms of Caucasus and North European. Mainland Greeks are just off with regards to North Euro and MENA but the difference is smaller. It makes zero sense to assume the Sicilian population ever plotted as far north as mainland Greeks do now, let alone northern Italians.

Even if you removed all of the MENA from Sicilians, the rest of the components would still not be similar to northern Italians. And if you're arguing they are you should be providing proof by analyzing the amount of the other components.

Sicilians now score much more Caucasian than do North Italians. Without the MENA, it'd be even higher of a disparity, and the North Euro would never be nearly as high.

I don't get why you aren't trying to model pre-MENA Sicilians as Albanians or mainland Greeks which makes much more sense.
Because Albanians and Greeks are not in Italy. It's obvious the base for a pre-extra MENA event in Sicily is what was in the rest of the peninsula and North Italian being the closest to the ancient Italian population to what a people that filtered down into the rest of Italy would have been like genetically. Forget Greece and Albania. Greece is a peripheral population. Albania is not even on the same peninsula. Sure, genetically Greece and Albania are closer, but Greece is peripheral and Albania is not on the peninsula where people filtered down into south Italy and Sicily from the north, on foot. I keep using North Italy because we are making comparisons between European DNA vs MENA DNA, ON THE ITALIAN PENINSULA.

So with this said, a North Italian-like population filtered down into Sicily from the North of the peninsula by foot. Later, this same population would acquire a little more MENA in possibly multiple ancient admixture events. I hope you understand now why I am using North Italian as a pre-extra admixture event population and benchmark.

[Sikeliot]

Because Albanians and Greeks are not in Italy. It's obvious the base for a pre-extra MENA event in Sicily is what was in the rest of the peninsula and North Italian being the closest to the ancient Italian population to what a people that filtered down into the rest of Italy would have been like genetically. Forget Greece and Albania. Greece is a peripheral population. Albania is not even on the same peninsula. Sure, genetically Greece and Albania are closer, but Greece is peripheral and Albania is not on the peninsula where people filtered down into south Italy and Sicily from the north, on foot. I keep using North Italy because we are making comparisons between European DNA vs MENA DNA, ON THE ITALIAN PENINSULA.

So with this said, a North Italian-like population filtered down into Sicily from the North of the peninsula by foot. Later, this same population would acquire a little more MENA in possibly multiple ancient admixture events. I hope you understand now why I am using North Italian as a pre-extra admixture event population and benchmark.

You have NO idea whether the pre-MENA influenced Sicilians were the same as the people on the rest of the Italian peninsula. Moreover, North Italians have always been closer to their neighbors in southern France (they were all Gallic). And mainland Greeks are not in fact peripheral Europeans, they plot firmly with other Europeans, only the islanders are peripheral.

Everything you are saying here is conjecture and has no basis in fact other than in your head. You are trying to appeal to the notion of a relatively unmixed, pure Europe but this is not the reality.

[Myanthropologies]

Thanks. I try to get this right you know. It takes lots of reading, searching and brainstorming. Basically, Sicilians are around 85% European, 15% true MENA.

I've been reading both sides of the argument, and you both have fair points. It's still arguable what the population of Sicily used to be like genetically, but they are definitely significantly mena shifted. They are genetically in between the Lebanese and North Italians, which is why they cluster with Jews.

I disagree with you that Caucasus and east med components are European. Both of those components peak in Middle Easterners more than they do in Europe, even if Europeans score a significant amount. The sw_asian influence in Lebanese is highly overemphasized (as well as the exotic influence in all non euro caucasoids).

[Sikeliot]

I've been reading both sides of the argument, and you both have fair points. It's still arguable what the population of Sicily used to be like genetically, but they are definitely significantly mena shifted. They are genetically in between the Lebanese and North Italians, which is why they cluster with Jews.

It is however mathematically impossible to assume Sicilians were ever like North Italians unless you also give them a 50% Levantine influx.

[Isleño]

Dodecad K12b gives them this:

Sicily:
Caucasus: 36.54
Atlantic-Med: 30.03
North Euro: 11.91
SW Asian: 11.91
North Africa: 4.10
Gedrosia: 4.5

North Italians:
Caucasus: 22.78
Atlantic-Med: 41.16
North Europe: 23.68
Gedrosia: 5.69
SW Asian: 5.59

The disparities in the Atlantic-Med, North Euro, and Caucasus CANNOT be accounted for by the difference in the MENA. Sicilians never could have been like modern North Italians.

You are missing everything I've been saying. Sicilians were North Italians, but later acquired the increase in Caucasus, NW Asian and Southwest Asian in admixture events. The addition of the Caucasus pushed some of the WHG out. Some components get pushed out when others enter. Sicily was populated from the north originally.

[Sikeliot]

You are missing everything I've been saying. Sicilians were North Italians, but later acquired the increase in Caucasus, NW Asian and Southwest Asian in admixture events. The addition of the Caucasus pushed some of the WHG out. Some components get pushed out when others enter. Sicily was populated from the north originally.

Ok and who then brought all of those other elements? It would have had to be Elymian, Phoenician, Carthaginian, and eventually Arab/Berber.

Greeks would have been similar to the people in the Italian Peninsula already so their input is not easy to trace, and Italic peoples then may not have been what they are now.

[Isleño]

Sicilians plot shifted toward the Levant when compared to mainland Greeks, whom are closer to Albanians and halfway to Bulgaria.

It is mathematically impossible that they were ever like modern North Italians. I refuse to continue arguing it with you.
Sicilians don't plot that far from Greeks. They are more Levantine shifted than Greeks, but they are not that far away. C'mon man, don't make me post PCA plots. It's not mathematically impossible that Sicilians were once like North Italians. Central Italy only has more MENA than Northern Italy because an admixture event from Anatolia in a later time frame. Sicily endured a similar fate. They were all like North Italians at one point, until they endured further admixture events later in time. The south was populated from the north, by foot.

You don't have to continue debating if you don't want to. You are getting angry, but it's not that serious. Control your emotions man.

[Isleño]

If we took out the North African and SW Asian entirely, Sicilians would roughly be:

Caucasus: 36.54*1.1191*1.0410 = 42.57
Atlantic-Med: 30.03*1.1191*1.0410 = 34.98
North Euro: 11.91*1.1191*1.0410 = 13.87
Gedrosia: 4.5*1.1191*1.0410 = 5.24

plus trace amounts of the rest. Does this look a damn thing like North Italians? NO. It wouldn't plot with any people in existence now.
What are you doing? You don't know how much DNA would be present per component if you removed components. DNA is too random. It's like taking a cup and scooping out a random colored bit of marbles from a bowl. You can't predict how many red or green marbles you would get. You'd have to remove the MENA and some of the Caucasus, but then trying to get back the WHG that was pushed out millenia ago, well good luck with that.

[Sikeliot]

Sicilians don't plot that far from Greeks. They are more Levantine shifted than Greeks, but they are not that far away. C'mon man, don't make me post PCA plots. It's not mathematically impossible that Sicilians were once like North Italians. Central Italy only has more MENA than Northern Italy because an admixture event from Anatolia in a later time frame. Sicily endured a similar fate. They were all like North Italians at one point, until they endured further admixture events later in time. The south was populated from the north, by foot.

You don't have to continue debating if you don't want to. You are getting angry, but it's not that serious. Control your emotions man.

Greeks plot halfway between Bulgaria and Sicily, which is testament to the noticeably larger North European element in Greece.

My emotions are controlled, thank you very much. I'd appreciate you keep the personal attacks to a minimum just like I omit things out of courtesy to you.

[Sikeliot]

How do you explain the disparity in North Euro between Greece and Sicily? The MENA input in Sicily diluting what was once higher North Euro, or the Slavic input in Greece increasing theirs?

[Isleño]

Well on there, the most MENA any European can score is the 30% maximum I've seen in a Sicilian from Messina. The next highest are 20% in a few Sicilians and Cretans.

I calculated an average and the average Sicilian score for MENA was like 12-16% depending on adding new people into the sample, but removing this DOES NOT turn them into North Italians, see above.
MyHeritage does not have a proven reputation, I don't fool with them. 23andme has proven to be the most accurate of commercial DNA tests, I'll stick with that.

And on 23andme, a Sicilian that scores 30% MENA is rare, if you can even find one. I've seen only one or two that were even 20%. The vast majority are between 6%-14% with a few that are 16%-18% MENA. Dodecad gives a total MENA as 16% (NwAfrican/SW Asian combined). I calculated 9% total MENA out of 58 Sicilian 23andme results, almost 4x the amount of Dodecad. But add that 9% to the 6% in North Italians, and you have an average of a 23andme result of 85% European and 15% MENA.

And yes, simply removing the MENA does not turn them into North Italians. You'd have to remove some of the Caucasus and get back the WHG that the Caucasus pushed out and you'd certainly have a North Italian.

[Isleño]

Even if you removed the MENA, it wouldn't plot Sicilians with mainland Greeks because the North European is much too low.

Have you not been listening? The addition of the Caucasus pushed out the WHG. They are similar in percentages, the WHG that would have been pushed out and the difference in Caucasus from what is present in North Italians.

[Sikeliot]

MyHeritage does not have a proven reputation, I don't fool with them. 23andme has proven to be the most accurate of commercial DNA tests, I'll stick with that.

And on 23andme, a Sicilian that scores 30% MENA is rare, if you can even find one. I've seen only one or two that were even 20%. The vast majority are between 6%-14% with a few that are 16%-18% MENA. Dodecad gives a total MENA as 16% (NwAfrican/SW Asian combined). I calculated 9% total MENA out of 58 Sicilian 23andme results, almost 4x the amount of Dodecad. But add that 9% to the 6% in North Italians, and you have an average of a 23andme result of 85% European and 15% MENA.

And yes, simply removing the MENA does not turn them into North Italians. You'd have to remove some of the Caucasus and get back the WHG that the Caucasus pushed out and you'd certainly have a North Italian.


Sicily never would have been like North Italy though. If we assume it was like Neolithic Greece (you can see those results posted in another thread), then it would have been more Sardinian like if anything. I'd even go so far as to say the North Euro in Sicily is higher now than it has ever been in history, and around 1000 BC it would have been around 5%, just above that of Cypriots.

Caucasian elements came during the Bronze Age and likely, some mediated later by Elymians, as well as Byzantine settlers from West Asia (Armenians, Pontians, and so on).

[Sikeliot]

Have you not been listening? The addition of the Caucasus pushed out the WHG. They are similar in percentages, the WHG that would have been pushed out and the difference in Caucasus from what is present in North Italians.

You literally only began saying this on the last page, it's not like you have been saying it for pages and it has gone ignored.

[Isleño]

You have NO idea whether the pre-MENA influenced Sicilians were the same as the people on the rest of the Italian peninsula. Moreover, North Italians have always been closer to their neighbors in southern France (they were all Gallic). And mainland Greeks are not in fact peripheral Europeans, they plot firmly with other Europeans, only the islanders are peripheral.

Everything you are saying here is conjecture and has no basis in fact other than in your head. You are trying to appeal to the notion of a relatively unmixed, pure Europe but this is not the reality.
Hey man, you need to relax, you are getting bent out of shape. Debate without getting angry, please.

It's not conjecture and it's not all in my head. It's recorded in pre-history the peninsula was populated from a north to south cline. That's absolute proof. Just because North Italians are close to French, doesn't mean they couldn't travel south and settle. And yes, Greeks are peripheral Europeans. They are just not as peripheral as Sicilians, but they do not cluster with the core European population.

I never said anything about an unmixed, pure Europe. That's nonsense. Please don't put words in my mouth.

[Sikeliot]

Hey man, you need to relax, you are getting bent out of shape. Debate without getting angry, please.

It's not conjecture and it's not all in my head. It's recorded in pre-history the peninsula was populated from a north to south cline. That's absolute proof. Just because North Italians are close to French, doesn't mean they couldn't travel south and settle. And yes, Greeks are peripheral Europeans. They are just not as peripheral as Sicilians, but they do not cluster with the core European population.

I never said anything about an unmixed, pure Europe. That's nonsense. Please don't put words in my mouth.


I am not the one getting angry, you are. If you were having the discussion in person you'd see this. You are reading anger into my words where it does not exist. That is how I type, it is not anger or being tense.

[Isleño]

I've been reading both sides of the argument, and you both have fair points. It's still arguable what the population of Sicily used to be like genetically, but they are definitely significantly mena shifted. They are genetically in between the Lebanese and North Italians, which is why they cluster with Jews.

I disagree with you that Caucasus and east med components are European. Both of those components peak in Middle Easterners more than they do in Europe, even if Europeans score a significant amount. The sw_asian influence in Lebanese is highly overemphasized (as well as the exotic influence in all non euro caucasoids).
Yes, but I never said the Caucasus component is European. I said it's found in nearly all Europeans and is a component in the European make up, therefore is not foreign to Europe. However, it's its own thing. East Med is the Neolithic Mediterranean component found in both Europeans and MENA's, but I never mentioned it. My whole argument was about the MENA, which is the SW Asian and NW African.


Sicilians do cluster between North Italians/Iberians and Levantines, yes. But that's because of there added components (Caucasus, MENA) and reduction of WHG from being pushed out at the admixture event.

And yes, it is debatable about the origins of Sicilians. But we do know the Italian peninsula was populated from the south, so the most likely population to travel south were the North Italians. Considering their components are closest among thos north of the peninsula at the base of the peninsula.

[Isleño]

Ok and who then brought all of those other elements? It would have had to be Elymian, Phoenician, Carthaginian, and eventually Arab/Berber.

Greeks would have been similar to the people in the Italian Peninsula already so their input is not easy to trace, and Italic peoples then may not have been what they are now.Yes, it would have been Anatolians mainly, but with some additions from others such as Phoenicians and other MENA's along the way. Yes, Greeks and Albanians were probably similar to those in the Italian peninsula. I think Albanians would have been closer. I think Greeks had more admixture events to place them where they currently plot.

[Sikeliot]

Yes, it would have been Anatolians mainly, but with some additions from others such as Phoenicians and other MENA's along the way. Yes, Greeks and Albanians were probably similar to those in the Italian peninsula. I think Albanians would have been closer. I think Greeks had more admixture events to place them where they currently plot.

I think Albanians are a good representation for ancient mainland Greeks as they are less Slavicized but also do not have as much influence from Anatolia via Pontic Greeks and whatnot.

[Isleño]

Greeks plot halfway between Bulgaria and Sicily, which is testament to the noticeably larger North European element in Greece.

My emotions are controlled, thank you very much. I'd appreciate you keep the personal attacks to a minimum just like I omit things out of courtesy to you.
I've never attacked you. I did ask questions like, "are you listening to me?" Because I felt like you were not getting what I was saying p. But it's no big deal, I'm not mad at all. I'm really trying to debate civil, but I can detect your emotions flaring in your comments. I view you as a friend, I have no desire to belittle you at all. It's just a debate, that's all.

[Isleño]

Greeks plot halfway between Bulgaria and Sicily, which is testament to the noticeably larger North European element in Greece.

My emotions are controlled, thank you very much. I'd appreciate you keep the personal attacks to a minimum just like I omit things out of courtesy to you.
Yes, Greeks have more WHG. Notice all the populations in both the Italian peninsula and the Balkans. But the Sicilians acquired the lowest. In my opinion, this is rock-solid proof that they were all like that, just Sicilians took on more admixture than the rest, putting them where they are today. Being North Italians are at the base of Italy, it's more likely it was they that populated the Italian peninsula southward, but these later southern-traveled Northern Italians had more admixture events, putting them where they are today.

[Isleño]

How do you explain the disparity in North Euro between Greece and Sicily? The MENA input in Sicily diluting what was once higher North Euro, or the Slavic input in Greece increasing theirs?

Well being that the WHG is significant in North Italians, Central Italians, Albanians, Bulgarians and other Balkans, I'd say it was the Sicilians that had admixture events that pushed out some of their WHG. Notice the difference in the amount of Caucasus between North Italians and Sicilians is similar in number to the difference of WHG between the two. I think there is a link there. Look where Caucasus is located in the admixture run, it's always next to the WHG in DNA, so it's the likely suspect of pushing out the WHG, in my opinion.

[Isleño]

Sicily never would have been like North Italy though. If we assume it was like Neolithic Greece (you can see those results posted in another thread), then it would have been more Sardinian like if anything. I'd even go so far as to say the North Euro in Sicily is higher now than it has ever been in history, and around 1000 BC it would have been around 5%, just above that of Cypriots.

Caucasian elements came during the Bronze Age and likely, some mediated later by Elymians, as well as Byzantine settlers from West Asia (Armenians, Pontians, and so on).

If all the surrounding populations of Italy and the Balkans have significant WHG, why would you assume Sicily had less in the Neolithic than now? I don't get that one. Could you post the thread page with the info you are quoting? I could follow what you are saying better.

Yes, Caucasian elements came early on, I agree. There's no reason for me to believe Sicily had more Caucasian than North Italy during that time. I believe a later admixture event caused the extra Caucasian found in Sicilians of today.

I think maybe we can work together to research for sure the pre-history of Italy, so we are much more certain. I think we both know bits and pieces well, but I think further study of pre-history would be beneficial to an agreement.

[Sikeliot]

Ok fair enough, I see your point now.

For what it's worth, the southeast of the island is more like mainland Greece than is the rest of the island, and most of the MENA affinity is among the northeast regions, Palermo, and Agrigento.

[Isleño]

You literally only began saying this on the last page, it's not like you have been saying it for pages and it has gone ignored.

I meant, were you listening to me when I did say it. But no big deal if you didn't. I think we can try our best to understand each other's view points.

[Isleño]

I am not the one getting angry, you are. If you were having the discussion in person you'd see this. You are reading anger into my words where it does not exist. That is how I type, it is not anger or being tense.
Ok, no problem. Maybe I misread. But maybe you did to, because I've been calm the whole time. I have not been mad at all. I like debating actually. It educates all parties involved. Sometimes you get to be the one with the answer, sometimes not. It's been fun so far.

[Isleño]

I think Albanians are a good representation for ancient mainland Greeks as they are less Slavicized but also do not have as much influence from Anatolia via Pontic Greeks and whatnot.

I agree with this 100% :)

[Isleño]

Ok fair enough, I see your point now.

For what it's worth, the southeast of the island is more like mainland Greece than is the rest of the island, and most of the MENA affinity is among the northeast regions, Palermo, and Agrigento.
I kinda view the Sicilians as the Canarians of Italy, kinda. There are some similarities in situations. We are basically the exotic parts of Europe (well technically the Canaries is not geographically in Europe, but genetically we are a peripheral population of Europe, much like Sicilians.

[Sikeliot]

I kinda view the Sicilians as the Canarians of Italy, kinda. There are some similarities in situations. We are basically the exotic parts of Europe (well technically the Canaries is not geographically in Europe, but genetically we are a peripheral population of Europe, much like Sicilians.

A better comparison to me is Sicily is Italy's version of what Crete is to Greece. :lol:

[Isleño]

A better comparison to me is Sicily is Italy's version of what Crete is to Greece. :lol:

Well, I didn't mean by component, I kinda meant by peripheral. I notice they always use the same Canarian sample in all these studies with only 11% North African (they are more like me, actually) but there are Canarians with 15%, 20%, 25%, 30%, even higher than that, in Gomera there are people that are half NW African, but they are not the average for the archipelago.

A Gomeran with high NW African would not plot next to Iberia like the Canarian samples in most of these studies. I suspect those samples were from Tenerife or Gran Canaria, where the NW African is the lowest, and would plot close to Iberia. Actually I'm mainly descended from those two islands, but I do have partial Gomeran descent. Just not one of those high NW African Gomeran lines. I think my Gomeran line was around 25%, I assume. I have 10% NW African, my sister has 13%. My cousin has 17%, so I'm just of the ones with the least amount. My cousin had my grandfather tested before he died and he had 24.5%. I'm 90% European, 10% NW African. We are all over the place lol



The average is more like the averages for MENA in Sicily, but just a bit higher, 10%-21%. But we are still 80%-90 European for most of us.

[Voskos]

Here's a Maltese recontruction from 3600 BC. Do you think she looks Nordic-Baltic? Obviously not.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JiIIjSTDCM4/UZEfVCaTlGI/AAAAAAAAIyY/RBvpCG7a_kY/s1600/7a753cbd2417521537a3469abe8ccea92667737087-1367955467-5189580b-620x348.jpg

[Sikeliot]

Here's a Maltese recontruction from 3600 BC. Do you think she looks Nordic-Baltic? Obviously not.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JiIIjSTDCM4/UZEfVCaTlGI/AAAAAAAAIyY/RBvpCG7a_kY/s1600/7a753cbd2417521537a3469abe8ccea92667737087-1367955467-5189580b-620x348.jpg

Sardinian.

I think pre-Caucasus influx Sicilians were like Sardinians, not north Italians, which is also what Greece was once like. Also, 3600 BC Maltese would have been Sicanians, same tribe as in Sicily.

They would have likely been West Med, some East Med, SW Asian, and North African.

[Voskos]

Sardinian.

I think pre-Caucasus influx Sicilians were like Sardinians, not north Italians, which is also what Greece was once like. Also, 3600 BC Maltese would have been Sicanians, same tribe as in Sicily.

They would have likely been West Med, some East Med, SW Asian, and North African.

I think SW Asian was a bit lower but North African was obviously already present in these ancients.

[Sikeliot]

I think SW Asian was a bit lower but North African was obviously already present in these ancients.

SW Asian would have been lower than today, but certainly present. Either way, I do believe Sicilians would have once been more MENA than today, because I think their SW Asian predates their North European (and would have been higher when Phoenicians settled).

I don't think they were ever like northern Italians. Sardinian-like makes more sense and if we ever find ancient remains this will be clear.

[Berlko2]

Well, genetically they're shifted toward MENA peoples. They don't even plot similarly to mainland Greeks.

Mainland Greeks differ a lot from Sicilians. I knew people from Thessaloniki who looked Slavic, being more similar to Ukrainians than Sicilians.

[Sikeliot]

Mainland Greeks differ a lot from Sicilians. I knew people from Thessaloniki who looked Slavic, being more similar to Ukrainians than Sicilians.


Do you think there is no MENA influence in Sicilian phenotypes and genes, or just less than what is often assumed?

Cretans are usually closest to Sicily.

[Berlko2]

Do you think there is no MENA influence in Sicilian phenotypes and genes, or just less than what is often assumed?

Cretans are usually closest to Sicily.

I think there's obviously MENA influence in Sicilians, genetically and phenotypically. Just said that they differ a lot from mainland Greeks. Sicilians are phenotipically, IMO, related to Cretans and Cypriots, although I've seen a lot of Sicilians who looked northern Italian.

[Sikeliot]

I think there's obviously MENA influence in Sicilians, genetically and phenotypically. Just said that they differ a lot from mainland Greeks. Sicilians are phenotipically, IMO, related to Cretans and Cypriots, although I've seen a lot of Sicilians who looked northern Italian.

Some Sicilians are northern Italian, if from the Lombard towns inland :) But yes, in general Crete is our closest kin, as well as Cyprus, Dodecanese and Ashkenazi Jews.