Whose language is euskara?

[Rethel]

C? I? G? :coffee:

[Ülev]

R1b

I1 + R1b - Germanic languages
I2a1 + R1a - Slavic languages
J2 + R1b - Latin/Roman languages


almost only R1b = Vasconic, almost R1a (or more properly without I and J) - Tajik languages



https://youtu.be/HvJxSnYWdp0

[Cristiano viejo]

r1b, as the Basques are.
No possible discussion about this.

[Rethel]

r1b, as the Basques are.
No possible discussion about this.

:picard2:

[Cristiano viejo]

:picard2:

what is wrong with my post, boy?

[Rethel]

what is wrong with my post, boy?

R1b are Indoeuropeans;
the language is a remain of other
people who originally spoke it.

[Ülev]

r1b, as the Basques are.
No possible discussion about this.

West Europe is already full of that, R1Bashirks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashkirs) from Bashkortostan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashkortostan) - predecessors of Basque people
just listen - Bashkirs = Basques

and look here:


No,she does not.It's probably the extra skin falling over her eyes that gives the "Pseudo Mongoloid" look at some of the pictures.:coffee:


Would definitely pass as a Basque woman as well. Also common among Bashkirs and Tatars.

http://www.classicdriver.com/sites/default/files/styles/article_full/public/sophie_marcieau_01.jpg?itok=04nSR1SD
(...)
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/cndy/attachement/jpg/site1/20090505/0013729e4a9d0b69c8be25.jpg

In her childhood:
(...)
http://de.web.img1.acsta.net/r_640_600/b_1_d6d6d6/medias/nmedia/18/62/90/68/18939141.jpg

[EL_BARBARO]

what is wrong with my post, boy?

nah, que me parece que está zumbao...

[Rethel]

https://youtu.be/HvJxSnYWdp0

She could be even indoeuropeanized :)

[Rethel]

nah, que me parece que está zumbao...

Or maybe you just don;t understand the main question :picard2:

[Cristiano viejo]

R1b are Indoeuropeans;
the language is a remain of other
people who originally spoke it.
Interesting (and crazy) theory... that you can not prove.


West Europe is already full of that, R1Bashirks (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashkirs) from Bashkortostan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bashkortostan) - predecessors of Basque people
just listen - Bashkirs = Basques

and look here:

So according you Basques are a luck of semi-Asians or something so, right?

[Rethel]

just listen - Bashkirs = Basques

This is quite interesting, and I pay my attention to this quite long ago.
It can be just some name used by R1b people, which remained among
R1b people - or rather was brought by them, when they themselves
changed their language. Coincidence is very unprobable. The interesting
fact is also, that both groups do not speak IE - but also do not speak one
and the same language, and both are on the borderline of IE settlement.
Additional factor can be redheadness, but on the west it survived quite
more on the north, what suggest, that in Basque case the name was
brought but R1b men, but in Baszkir case - can be a remain of the older
original R1b settlement - in both case language is a result of too long
childhood of the men sticking to their chidlish pantywaistic slang.

[Mens-Sarda]

I suppose I2 in origin, the pre-Roman language of Sardinia was supposedly related with Basque. Basques somehow managed to preserve their language but they inevitably mixed with the surrounding IE people, so they are now mostly R1b; Sardinians instead due to geographic isolation didn't mix too much with other peoples (39,5% of Sardinians are I2), but we lost our pre-IE language during the Roman occupation.

Haplogroup I is the oldest major haplogroup in Europe and in all probability the only one that originated there. The modern Sardinians and Basques inherited the biggest share of their genome from those Neolithic farmers from the Printed-Cardium Pottery culture.

Haplogroup I2a1a1 (M26)
I2a1a (M26, L158, L159.1/S169.1) was known as I1b2 until 2005, I1b1b in 2006-7, and I2a1 from 2008 to 2010. It is found in all Western Europe, and reaches maximum frequencies among the Sardinians (37.5%) and the Basques (5%), two population isolates. M26 is geographically restricted to the British Isles, the Low Countries, France, western Germany, Switzerland, Sardinia, Sicily, the west coast of Italy, Iberia and the Mediterranean coast of the Maghreb. The only M26 negative for the L160 mutation are confined to Ireland.



Haplogroup I2 is the most common paternal lineage in former Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria and Sardinia, and a major lineage in most Slavic countries. Its maximum frequencies are observed in Bosnia (55%, including 71% in Bosnian Croats), Sardinia (39.5%), Croatia (38%), Serbia (33%), Montenegro (31%), Romania (28%), Moldova (24%), Macedonia (24%), Slovenia (22%), Bulgaria (22%), Belarus (18.5%), Hungary (18%), Slovakia (17.5%), Ukraine (13.5%), and Albania (13.5%). It is found at a frequency of 5 to 10% in Germanic countries.

[Ülev]

http://генофонд.рф/wp-content/uploads/2.8-500x494.jpg
source: http://генофонд.рф/?page_id=5629

and R1a was once more western than today ---> R1a-L664 is essentially Northwest European, found chiefly in West Germany, the Low Countries and the British Isles http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

[Rethel]

Interesting (and crazy) theory... that you can not prove.

Look at my map in my signature. Half of this points if not more, are R1b.
The oldest are from Russia, Latvia, Ukraine and Tatarstan. The trek to
the Spain is the mark of old V88 migration to Africa. In that time whole
West Europe, especially Spain was settled by C1, I2 and later G2 people.

I don;t uderstand - you are on TA five years, and you do not know this?

I did get it 10 years ago, not having the access to such forums, becasue
I did not know the english, but it was the most resonable conclusion from
the historical, archeological and genetic knowlegde which I had. Now it is
proved beyond the boldest imagination back then.

[Cristiano viejo]

Look at my map in my signature. Half of this point of not more, are R1b.
The oldest are from Russia, Latvia, Ukraine and Tatarstan. The trek to
the Spain is a mark of old V88 migration to Africa. In that time whole
West Europe, especially spain was settled by C1, I2 and later G2 people.

I don;t uderstand - you are on TA five years, and you do not know this?

I did get it 10 years ago, not having the access to such forums, becasue
I did not know the english, but it was the most resonable conclusion from
the historical, archeological and genetic knowlegde which I had. Now it is
proved beyond the boldest imagination back then.

Yeah, we all know TA is an unparalleled source of knowledge :rolleyes:

[Ülev]

http://генофонд.рф/wp-content/uploads/2.8-500x494.jpg
source: http://генофонд.рф/?page_id=5629

and R1a was once more western than today ---> R1a-L664 is essentially Northwest European, found chiefly in West Germany, the Low Countries and the British Isles http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml

and IJ came from Asia, Persia & around

In addition, living examples of the precursor Haplogroup IJ* have been found only in Iran, among the Mazandarani and ethnic Persians from Fars.[5] This may indicate that IJ originated in South West Asia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M170

[Ülev]

R1a & R1b = Æsir (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86sir) & Vanir (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanir)

[Ülev]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86sir%E2%80%93Vanir_War

this is why R1a is more eastern and R1b more western today

[brennus dux gallorum]

R1b are Indoeuropeans;
the language is a remain of other
people who originally spoke it.

R1b is not indoeuropean

it's megalithic/Aquitani

[Rethel]

R1b is not indoeuropean

it's megalithic/Aquitani


Another one... :picard2:

[EL_BARBARO]

Or maybe you just don;t understand the main question :picard2:

no interest

[brennus dux gallorum]

Another one... :picard2:
Facepalm yourself as much as you want Indo-European dude, the fact that r1b carries the megalithic>aquitani pre-Indo-European past of Europe doesn't change

No, most of British and French ancestry is NOT Indo-European

[Not a Cop]

C? I? G? :coffee:

Most likely I or G, though we don't know for shure yet.

[Rethel]

Most likely I or G, though we don't know for shure yet.

And never will be known.

[Rethel]

Most likely I or G, though we don't know for shure yet.

And never will be known.

[Ülev]

And never will be known.


And never will be known.

und noch einmal

[Porn Master]

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d1/DeneCaucasian.png

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Den%C3%A9-Caucasian.JPG

http://ehl.santafe.edu/maps/Dene-Caucasian.gif

http://www.humanjourney.us/images/Cavalli-Sforza-LangMap.gif

http://starling.rinet.ru/maps/maps/world.gif

[Rethel]

She could be even indoeuropeanized :)

Nope. I change my opinion. This teledisc it is some fake.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/OitVf3w9c_0/maxresdefault.jpg
http://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/nouvelle-aquitaine/sites/regions_france3/files/styles/top_big/public/assets/images/2013/12/30/a_etchegoyen.jpg?itok=snwC_c8W
http://images.sudouest.fr/2013/07/09/57ebd45966a4bd6f77830065/widescreen/1000x500/meilleur-depart-des-ventes-dalbum-en-france-anne-etchegoyen-est-fiere-de-son-succes-mais-milite-pour-que-les-festivals-locaux-acceptent-au-moins-35-dartistes-basques.jpg

[Mens-Sarda]

Nice girl, looks Sardinian!

[Rethel]

Bump

[wvwvw]

The whole R1b linage must have spoken a Basque-like language.

[Rethel]

The whole R1b linage must have spoken a Basque-like language.

In Mongolia and Turkmenia also?

[wvwvw]

In Mongolia and Turkmenia also?

The Slavs who came from Asia and whose linage is a subset of R1b also didn't speak an IE language.

[Rethel]

The virginly IE land, as Icelabd, had very interesting law during 400 years... :)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/iceland/11635123/Iceland-abolishes-law-which-orders-Basques-to-be-killed-on-sight.html

Iceland abolishes law which orders Basques to be killed on sight
Iceland has repealed a 400-year-old law which said Spaniards
from the Basque Country should be killed as soon as they set
foot in the Westfjords region...

[Rethel]

The Slavs who came from Asia and whose linage is a subset of R1b also didn't speak an IE language.

:picard2:

[wvwvw]

:picard2:

Genetically "Indo-Europeans" or rather Steppe people, but linguistically not. The common IE words spread mainly from Greeks. In reality 4 tribal linag es contributed to PIE and the largest contribution came from the Greek language.

[Lluna Plena]

The Basques like the idea, which most evidence supports, that they are the original Europeans, predating all others. If true, it must have been an isolating experience, belonging to this ancient people whose culture had little in common with any of its neighbors. It was written over and over in the records of those who observed the Basques that they spoke a strange language that kept them apart from others. But it is also what kept them together as a people, uniting them to withstand Europe's great invasions.

http://www.rhnegativeregistry.com/the-basque-history-of-the-world-rh-negative-origin.html

[Proto-Shaman]

R1b

I1 + R1b - Germanic languages
I2a1 + R1a - Slavic languages
J2 + R1b - Latin/Roman languages


almost only R1b = Vasconic, almost R1a (or more properly without I and J) - Tajik languages



https://youtu.be/HvJxSnYWdp0

this.

[BarcelonaAtlantis]

The Basques like the idea, which most evidence supports, that they are the original Europeans, predating all others. If true, it must have been an isolating experience, belonging to this ancient people whose culture had little in common with any of its neighbors. It was written over and over in the records of those who observed the Basques that they spoke a strange language that kept them apart from others. But it is also what kept them together as a people, uniting them to withstand Europe's great invasions.

http://www.rhnegativeregistry.com/the-basque-history-of-the-world-rh-negative-origin.html

And now we know R1b(true royal haplogroup)is the basque haplogroup and king Tut's haplogroup, proving the true promised land is the west(the basque country all the way to catalonia)The hidden truth is in revelations 12:9 and 2:9 and DNA corroborates it.

The so called spanish in spain the anti basques/catalans are crypto pharisees giving us a bad image to slander the real thing/celtic spain=basque/catalan land.Now spanish is associated with the imposters(they created the so called hispanics) staining our stolen identity to make it harder to believe the hidden truth

[Rethel]

:picard2:

[Ülev]

And now we know R1b(true royal haplogroup)is the basque haplogroup and king Tut's haplogroup, proving the true promised land is the west(the basque country all the way to catalonia)The hidden truth is in revelations 12:9 and 2:9 and DNA corroborates it.

The so called spanish in spain the anti basques/catalans are crypto pharisees giving us a bad image to slander the real thing/celtic spain=basque/catalan land.Now spanish is associated with the imposters(they created the so called hispanics) staining our stolen identity to make it harder to believe the hidden truth

and it's France, at least this russian guy claim that (at 11:00): https://youtu.be/PlGdZQMJ35g

Saint-Nazaire - Nazareth
Parisians - Pharisees
Somme river was Samara - Samaria
Cannes - Galilean Cana
Kiberon - Hebron
Belleme - Bethleem
Bethune - Bethany
Saint Omer - Gomorra
Sedan - Sodom
Tours - Tyre

large hill Montmartre in Paris is the place of Crucifixion of Jesus

etc.

edit: and he said that these 'biblical' names in Palestine originated only in the XiX century (10 time less than in France)

[Сербо Макеридов]

Probably I.

[Lluna Plena]

https://www.facebook.com/notes/irene-ursoa-parot/el-pueblo-del-euskara-el-primer-pueblo-de-toda-europa/1526679260896878/

[Rethel]

:confused:

[Mikula]

mtDNA V :p

[Rethel]

mtDNA V :p

:D

So, do you really wish them so bad? :)

[Mikula]

:D

So, do you really whish them so bad? :)

What is bad about Velda?
This haplogroup appears mostly among Cantabrians, Basques, Saami and even I am blessed with it, too :)

[Peterski]

Basque language is from their women, so it is not associated with any Y-DNA.

[Mikula]

Basque language is from their women, so it is not associated with any Y-DNA.

Muttersprache, mateřský jazyk :thumb001:

[Rethel]

What is bad about Velda?
This haplogroup appears mostly among Cantabrians, Basques, Saami and even I am blessed with it, too :)

That I-men are sissy henpecks...


Basque language is from their women, so it is not associated with any Y-DNA.

It is not about present day.
And even if, then it was not intentional or purpouly structural,
neither was as such, when this language was originally speaking
across huge parts of Europe in many dead by now tounges/dialects.

[Mikula]

Wiki says (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basques#Society):
...matrilineal inheritance laws, and agricultural work performed by women continued in Basque country until the early twentieth century.

[Rethel]

Wiki says (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basques#Society):
...matrilineal inheritance laws, and agricultural work performed by women continued in Basque country until the early twentieth century.

And it;s ended, that originals were replaced by foreigners.

But what was before IEs?

Medieval and later Basques are not
representative for all pre-IE Europe.

Somebody has to speak this language
originaly in non mixed state.

[Rethel]

It is interesting that here is so many anty-IE haters or envies,
but they do not want even to vote about non-IE topic... :picard2:

[cosmoo]

Either a language of Early Neolithic farmers, or of pre-Phoenician western Asian seafarers, or combination of languages from both sources.
It is definitely NOT language of I haplogroup carriers. There are dozens of different theories on its origin, and not a single one mentions Palaeolithic/Mesolithic European hunter-gatherers.

[Cristiano viejo]

Either a language of Early Neolithic farmers, or of pre-Phoenician western Asian seafarers, or combination of languages from both sources.
It is definitely NOT language of I haplogroup carriers. There are dozens of different theories on its origin, and not a single one mentions Palaeolithic/Mesolithic European hunter-gatherers.

Because it is not.

[Melki]

As I'm not an anthrotard, I dunno what C, I, G actually mean. I just know I've recently (in July-August) been to Georgia and that a lot of people, especially in the Svan Country or in Mingrelia, reacted positively when I told them that I came from the Basque Country. "Then we are part of the same family" was what they often said.

The hypothesis that Basque is related to Kartvelian (or South Caucasian) languages like Svan, Mingrelian or Laz, in a possible Ibero-Caucasian family, first proposed by Georgian linguist Arnold Chikobava, and now abandonned, has still a lot of partisans in Georgia. That's why they treated me like a brother.

[Cristiano viejo]

As I'm not an anthrotard, I dunno what C, I, G actually mean. I just know I've recently (in July-August) been to Georgia and that a lot of people, especially in the Svan Country or in Mingrelia, reacted positively when I told them that I came from the Basque Country. "Then we are part of the same family" was what they often said.

The hypothesis that Basque is related to Kartvelian (or South Caucasian) languages like Svan, Mingrelian or Laz, in a possible Ibero-Caucasian family, first proposed by Georgian linguist Arnold Chikobava, and now abandonned, has still a lot of partisans in Georgia. That's why they treated me like a brother.

Cool story but you are not Basque.

[Melki]

Cool story but you are not Basque.

My grandmother was 100% Basque, like it or not.

[Rethel]

My grandmother was 100% Basque, like it or not.

= you are not bask.

[Melki]

= you are not bask.

I'm also only 25% ethnic French. Then it means I'm not French either...So what am I?

[Cristiano viejo]

My grandmother was 100% Basque, like it or not.
Mother of Obama is white, is Obama white perhaps?


I'm also only 25% ethnic French. Then it means I'm not French either...So what am I?
A mestizo.

[Melki]

Mother of Obama is white, is Obama white perhaps?


A mestizo.

Better Euromixed like me than Castillan inbred like you.

[Cristiano viejo]

Better Euromixed like me than Castillan inbred like you.

At all. Moreover, I bet MY LIFE you also have Castilian ancestry.

And you are not an Euromixed. Euromixeds dont have Inca ancestry.

[Melki]

At all. Moreover, I bet MY LIFE you also have Castilian ancestry.

And you are not an Euromixed. Euromixeds dont have Inca ancestry.

Yes, I'm not Basque even though my grandma was Basque, but nevertheless I'm an Inca only because my great-great-grandmother was Peruvian (with a French surname by the way)...makes sense.

Now I understand why all intellectuals are leftists and why football hooligans are right-wing. Tell me genius, what happened to your brain the day you were born? Did you fall head-first on the hospital floor?

[Cristiano viejo]

Yes, I'm not Basque even though my grandma was Basque, but nevertheless I'm an Inca only because my great-great-grandmother was Peruvian (with a French surname by the way)...makes sense.

Two months ago your Peruvian great-great-grandmother was of Castilian origin from Andalusia. Hidalgos, you called them.
Now they were French :rolleyes:

[Melki]

Two months ago your Peruvian great-great-grandmother was of Castilian origin from Andalusia. Hidalgos, you called them.
Now they were French :rolleyes:

In the meantime I asked my aunt, who's working our family-tree, and learned the truth. Now, perhaps I have old Amerindian roots, who knows? We were not able to find the old Peruvian archives, but DNA tests don't lie. I'll soon do one.

[Cristiano viejo]

In the meantime I asked my aunt, who's working our family-tree, and learned the truth. Now, perhaps I have old Amerindian roots, who knows? We were not able to find the old Peruvian archives, but DNA tests don't lie. I'll soon do one.
Peace and love Melki :thumb001:

[Rethel]

I'm also only 25% ethnic French. Then it means I'm not French either...So what am I?

Idk, you have to reveal where this 25% comes from.

My granny was a Yotvingian, by am I? No.


In the meantime I asked my aunt, who's working our family-tree, and learned the truth. Now, perhaps I have old Amerindian roots, who knows? We were not able to find the old Peruvian archives, but DNA tests don't lie. I'll soon do one.

:picard2:

Asking a woman who you are... :picard1:
Btw, her tree is totaly different than yous.
Either her table of ascendants is different than yours.
And their thinking about genealogy is different than normal.
So - the more :picard2:

[Melki]

Idk, you have to reveal where this 25% comes from.

My granny was a Yotvingian, by am I? No.



:picard2:

Asking a woman who you are... :picard1:
Btw, her tree is totaly different than yous.
Either her table of ascendants is different than yours.
And their thinking about genealogy is different than normal.
So - the more :picard2:

Listen, no matter my 25% to know who I am, I feel more French than German, despite being 50% German. That's simple, even if I claim I'm neutral, deep down in my heart, I will support France, and not Spain or Germany.

Because it's the country where I was born and raised, and to us, liberal left-wingers, the juridical concept of jus soli (the right to citizenship of a country based on being born in that country) matters more than anything else.
On the contrary, you conservative right-wingers, prefer to attach importance to jus sanguinis (birthright: citizenship policies, it is often difficult for foreigners to naturalise, even if they are long-term residents or were native born to the country.)

In predominantly conservative Poland, a Pole will always be a Pole, even if he was born in France, doesn't speak any word of Polish and has Jean-Luc :picard2: for first name.
Whereas in predominantly liberal Germany, a Turkish boy who spent most of his life in Germany will always be considered more German than you and me.

[Rethel]

Listen, no matter my 25% to know who I am,

Yes, it matters.


I feel

Oh, I didn't know, that we suddenly twisted to speaking about feelings, not about facts.


Because it's the country where I was born and raised,

Did I negate it?


and to us, liberal left-wingers, the juridical concept of jus soli (the right to citizenship of a country based on being born in that country)

But one doesn't contradict to another.


matters more than anything else.

Since when citizeship matters for leftist...?
Only when it is comfortable or benefiial for you? :picard1:


a Pole will always be a Pole, even if he was born in France, doesn't speak any word of Polish and has Jean-Luc :picard2: for first name.

Absolutly. We even honour haitian Poles.
Jean Luc it is just Jan Łukasz. No big deal.
It is just a verion of normal names in french,
translateable anyway into polish.


Whereas in predominantly liberal Germany, a Turkish boy who spent most of his life in Germany will always be considered more German

:picard2:


than you and me.

I don't care who is considering what, especially that I am from Poland, not
from Germany. They can even think, that all Alzatians or Lichtensteiners
are not Germans. They are so much idiot by now, that it is meaningless
what they think. soon, we will have there a Doychistan or New Turkey
Caliphate, so, why bother? FRG ended in 1975, when they broken the
act about citizenship (not perfect, but keeping main principle intact).

[Melki]

Yes, it matters.



Oh, I didn't know, that we suddenly twisted to speaking about feelings, not about facts.



Did I negate it?



But one doesn't contradict to another.



Since when citizeship matters for leftist...?
Only when it is comfortable or benefiial for you? :picard1:



Absolutly. We even honour haitian Poles.
Jean Luc it is just Jan Łukasz. No big deal.
It is just a verion of normal names in french,
translateable anyway into polish.



:picard2:



I don't care who is considering what, especially that I am from Poland, not
from Germany. They can even think, that all Alzatians or Lichtensteiners
are not Germans. They are so much idiot by now, that it is meaningless
what they think. soon, we will have there a Doychistan or New Turkey
Caliphate, so, why bother? FRG ended in 1975, when they broken the
act about citizenship (not perfect, but keeping main principle intact).

I always thought you had some Niemcy ancestry...

Yes, of course, my feelings matter more than my 25 or something % when it comes to build my national identity.
But I may feel more French than anything else, due to my mixed origins, I'm not chauvinistic or nationalist. Notice that I choose the European flag rather than the French tricolore in my profile. I define myself first and foremost as an European. And if I decided to add the ikurriña/I] (Basque flag) it's because I have deep family ties in Euskadi, not in Normandy, Brittany or Corsica.

Thinking about the concept of [I]jus sanguinis, I realize it's also very important to define the Turkic identity. For a pan-turkist, you may look like a yellow Mongolian with slanted eyes, a brown Persian with a big moustache or a blonde Volga Tatar with blue eyes, never mind, you were born anyway under Genghis Khan's yurt.
Speaking a Turkish language also plays a big role.

And language is also essential for the Basques. Since a minority of the ethnic Basque population speaks now Euskara, Basques value those who make efforts to speak their language.
To many of the Euskaldunak (Basques who speak euskara), an African who speaks fluent Basque (because he was adopted by a Bascophone family) will be more accepted in the community than a maketo (racial slur for the non-Basque Spaniards working in Euskadi) or even the Euskatarrak (ethnic Basques who only speak Erdara, in other words: French or Castilian Spanish).

That's precisely my uncle's tragedy. He's an abertzale (Basque nationalist), but in spite of all his efforts (Basque is a very difficult language to learn, and it was no longer spoken at home), he never managed to learn Euskara. He only has a basic knowledge of it, and speaks fluent Spanish and French. Basques have this saying: the Devil himself tried to learn Basque but renounced because it was too demanding.

[Rethel]

I always thought you had some Niemcy ancestry...

I always was saying it. :rolleyes:


Yes, of course, my feelings matter more than my 25 or something % when it comes to build my national identity.

And very wrong, because as the very word nation implies,
to be a part of the nation, you have to be born. Use speak
romanic language, and you use romanic word, not knowing,
what that word means? :picard1:


European flag rather than the French tricolore in my profile.

I myself don;t know, what is worse...


I define myself first and foremost as an European. And if I decided to add the ikurriña/I] (Basque flag) it's because I have deep family ties in Euskadi, not in Normandy, Brittany or Corsica.

:picard2:

You have none ties to Basks (if would would be I-man, then I would say nothing, regardless you current wishfullness :) ).


And language is also essential for the Basques.

And are you speaking it?


To many of the [I]Euskaldunak (Basques who speak euskara), an African who speaks fluent Basque (because he was adopted by a Bascophone family) will be more accepted in the community than a maketo (racial slur for the non-Basque Spaniards working in Euskadi) or even the Euskatarrak (ethnic Basques who only speak Erdara, in other words: French or Castilian Spanish).

So, this is why they failed...


That's precisely my uncle's tragedy. He's an abertzale (Basque nationalist), but in spite of all his efforts (Basque is a very difficult language to learn, and it was no longer spoken at home), he never managed to learn Euskara. He only has a basic knowledge of it, and speaks fluent Spanish and French. Basques have this saying: the Devil himself tried to learn Basque but renounced because it was too demanding.

Eeee... it is one of the easiest compering to others.

[Cristiano viejo]

That's precisely my uncle's tragedy. He's an abertzale (Basque nationalist), but in spite of all his efforts (Basque is a very difficult language to learn, and it was no longer spoken at home), he never managed to learn Euskara. He only has a basic knowledge of it, and speaks fluent Spanish and French. Basques have this saying: the Devil himself tried to learn Basque but renounced because it was too demanding.

http://emotikona.pl/emotikony/pic/2smiech.gifhttp://emotikona.pl/emotikony/pic/2smiech.gifhttp://emotikona.pl/emotikony/pic/2smiech.gif

well, that is the tragedy of most of Basques, not only of your uncle...


Peace and love, Melki :thumb001:

[Melki]

I always was saying it. :rolleyes:



And very wrong, because as the very word nation implies,
to be a part of the nation, you have to be born. Use speak
romanic language, and you use romanic word, not knowing,
what that word means? :picard1:



I myself don;t know, what is worse...


:picard2:

You have none ties to Basks (if would would be I-man, then I would say nothing, regardless you current wishfullness :) ).



And are you speaking it?



So, this is why they failed...



Eeee... it is one of the easiest compering to others.

I may not be an Euskaldun, rather a citizen of the world. You right-wing nationalists have troubles to understand what that concept means, to be a "global citizen". You rather remain closed into 4 tiny walls and don't even greet your neighbors.
During my life, I moved a lot, in different parts of France and several foreign countries. But I may have a nomadic existence, I'll always have a place called "home". And this home is the family house in the Basque Country.

I don't agree with you. Look at France, could you say we are a homogeneous Romance Nation-state? Not at all. The Germans made the same mistake when they thought they could keep Alsace.
France is a patchwork, but everywhere from Dunkerque to Ajaccio, from Hendaye to Wissembourg, from Brest to Wallis-et-Futuna you will find different people who will sing la Marseillaise in accord.
We may not be a true Nation-state, and we also have our independentist movements, but as a Nation united by common Republican values and principles, we are stable and work better than Spain, Belgium or Yougoslavie.
You should read Ernest Renan's famous 1882 lecture "What is a Nation?" and you will learn that a nation is a "daily plebiscite", a work in progress not based on ethnicity, language or religion.

And look, I'm 40 years old and you're the first person I hear who tells me that Basque is easier than any other language, but I'll forgive you because you obviously never tried to learn it.
Let's make a deal, first try to learn it and come back to see me in...let's say, 279 years when you're fluent.

[Dick]

Basque sounds like spanish to me or maybe it's the accent.



https://youtu.be/XWk76ojkHdc

[Veslan]

R1b. They probably came from the South Caucasus/East Anatolia, which was R1b even before Indo-Europeans came.

[Petalpusher]

Basque sounds like spanish to me or maybe it's the accent.



https://youtu.be/XWk76ojkHdc

Weirdly to me it sounds like Spanish spoken with an Italian accent. And absolutely no idea what they are saying.

[Mens-Sarda]

The journalist has an heavy Spanish accent, probably he's more used to speak Spanish than Basque, instead in Alonso I don't perceive any particular accent

[Cristiano viejo]

The journalist has an heavy Spanish accent, probably he's more used to speak Spanish than Basque, instead in Alonso I don't perceive any particular accent

Both of them speak Castilian daily, infinitely more than Basque. Alonso even has gone to live to Madrid with his family permanently.
Castilian accent in both is obvious.

[Melki]

Weirdly to me it sounds like Spanish spoken with an Italian accent. And absolutely no idea what they are saying.

Basque sounds different in France.

[Lluna Plena]

http://www.pamiela.com/es/ensayo/ensayo-y-testimonio/navarre-shall-be-la-tierra-del-euskera-y-las-islas-britanicas-detail

[Ülev]

unban Rethel

[Caveat Emptor]

Well, as far as I know - and that's according to the Vasconic Languages hypothesis - it's the original language developed during the neolithic, so Vasconic languages (related to Basque) were widespread in pre-indoeuropean Europe. But how would it work with the haplogroups?

[Erronkari]

Well, as far as I know - and that's according to the Vasconic Languages hypothesis - it's the original language developed during the neolithic, so Vasconic languages (related to Basque) were widespread in pre-indoeuropean Europe. But how would it work with the haplogroups?

Exactly, which you said is the most accurate.
But for any reason as Cristiano Viejo said most basques are R1b which is indoeuropean.
You can see this link which is very interesting and probably explaines quite well this subject, even is in spanish...
https://gigantesencasa.com/2017/09/27/casi-el-50-de-los-espanoles-y-de-entre-ellos-hasta-el-70-de-los-vascos-y-muchos-americanos-son-descendientes-de-un-mismo-hombre-que-nacio-hace-4-500-anos-entre-aragon-valencia-y-cataluna-un-supe/amp/

[Caveat Emptor]

Exactly, which you said is the most accurate.
But for any reason as Cristiano Viejo said most basques are R1b which is indoeuropean.
You can see this link which is very interesting and probably explaines quite well this subject, even is in spanish...
https://gigantesencasa.com/2017/09/27/casi-el-50-de-los-espanoles-y-de-entre-ellos-hasta-el-70-de-los-vascos-y-muchos-americanos-son-descendientes-de-un-mismo-hombre-que-nacio-hace-4-500-anos-entre-aragon-valencia-y-cataluna-un-supe/amp/

Right, that's fascinating, but is there like an official scientific answer to this? I love Basques by the way I've met some during a student exchange. They seem just like French/Spanish or even British/Irish in some cases.

I don't speak Spanish by the way but I've translated the link with google.

[Ülev]

Rethel, are you in Basque country now?
unban Rethel!

[HolyMoon]

R1b.

Basque is the language spoken by R1b men before they adopted IE from R1aryans. Basques kept their language and migrated along R1aryans and R1aryanized R1b people.

[acerocl]

R1b.

Basque is the language spoken by R1b men before they adopted IE from R1aryans. Basques kept their language and migrated along R1aryans and R1aryanized R1b people.

Sorry, but you are wrong. It has been recently proof that euskara is an ancient language from original settlers from Iberia. When the yanmayas (R1b) came to Iberia they took that languaje. In other words, euskara was in Iberia previously to the basque people (who are in a more than a 90% R1b). In this case, language was first, ethnicity second. Best!

[Rocinante]

I2 people.

[Rethel]

Some new conclusions?

[Gota_type_]

Today´s euskera is ARTIFICIAL. It is called Batua and it has like 50 years old. It is a mix of several basque dialects mixed with Spanish.

Euskera is the oldest language with the less written records. It probably was just an oral language which makes it even more valuable since it has survived for millenia.

In the East of Spain, Iberian was spoken (before the Romans came), and it is closely related with basque language. Even more, Iberian is more related with proto-basque (aquitanian) than with the oldest basque dialects that exist today. Iberian is also related with extinct Tartessian (SW Spain) which might even be related with etruscan and other ancient languages. In every place of Spain there are toponymia that is "basque" but nobody knows why in places without any basque inmigration there are toponymia that is basque (mostly related with rivers, mountains, and old things like these ones). So, it is probably that in most of Spain (even before the celtic languages arrived) a kind of language related with basque was spoken.

[Ülev]

Some new conclusions?

Euskara is R1a language - proof ---> gixajo is R1a

[Rethel]

It is a mix of several basque dialects mixed with Spanish.

So this is the reason why it soudns like spanish...

[Gota_type_]

So this is the reason why it soudns like spanish...

Well, it is a bit different. It sounds like castellano but more harsh. Castellano (the neutral Spanish) was born in an área where euskera and romance was spoken, so Spanish was born as a consequence of euskera+latin, so it is probable that the phonemas are vinculated.

And it is also curious that in the north of Castilla, where Spanish was born, it has the most neutral accent and the sound is similar to Swedish language (I say this because I have Heard it and said: "it sounds quite similar"), and in this área, the visigoths lived initially for 200 years. In Campos Góticos (Gothic Fields). So, there must be something there.

The rest of Spanish accents are more musical, less harsh, not so elegant.

[Frowning Man]

As I'm not an anthrotard, I dunno what C, I, G actually mean. I just know I've recently (in July-August) been to Georgia and that a lot of people, especially in the Svan Country or in Mingrelia, reacted positively when I told them that I came from the Basque Country. "Then we are part of the same family" was what they often said.

The hypothesis that Basque is related to Kartvelian (or South Caucasian) languages like Svan, Mingrelian or Laz, in a possible Ibero-Caucasian family, first proposed by Georgian linguist Arnold Chikobava, and now abandonned, has still a lot of partisans in Georgia. That's why they treated me like a brother.

In my country, this theory is no longer believed as it used to be.
We are Mingrelians, Svans and Laz, they are Kolkhi, that is, Western Georgians.
In ancient times, Eastern Georgians were called Iberians by the authors. This is where the theory about the relationship of Georgians and Basques originated.
I don't believe in her.
Everything is too exaggerated in this theory.

[Gota_type_]

Euskara is R1a language - proof ---> gixajo is R1a

The R1a of Gixajo come from his father that is from Andalucía. It is his mother the basque. He is 50% basque although lives in the basque región anyways.


A proof that basque and old Iberian language are related (ie, most of Spain spoke a basque like language, not just the basques):

The "bronce de botorrita" is written in Iberian (with some celtic words), and it has been translated with BASQUE. It is the link that proves that basque and iberian are totally related and half of Spain spoke some kind of proto-basque:

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronces_de_Botorrita




https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronces_de_Botorrita#/media/Archivo:Botorrita_1.jpg


Transcripción​[editar]
A.1. tirikantam percunetacam tocoitoscue sarnicio cue sua combalcez nelitomA.2. necue [u]ertaunei litom necue taunei litom necue masnai tizaunei litom soz aucuA.3. arestaio tamai uta oscues stena uerzoniti silabur sleitom conscilitom gabizetiA.4. cantom sancilistara otanaum tocoitei eni: uta oscuez boustomue coruinomueA.5. macasiamue ailamue ambitiseti camanom usabituz ozas sues sailo custa bizetuz iomA.6. asecati ambitincounei stena es uertai entara tiris matus tinbituz neito tiricantamA.7. eni onsatuz iomui listas titas zizonti somui iom arznas bionti iom custaicosA.8. arznas cuati ias ozias uertatosue temeiue robiseti saum decametinas datuz someiA.9. enitouzei iste ancios iste esancios uze areitena sarniciei acainacubosA.10. nebintor tocoitei ios ur antiomue auzeti aratimue decametam datuz iom tocoitoscueA.11. sarniciocue aiuizas combalcores aleites iste icues ruzimuz abulu ubocumB.1. lubos counesicum melnunos bintis letontu litocumB.2. abulos bintis melmu barauzanco lesunos bintisB.3. letontu ubocum turo bintis lubinaz aiu bercanticumB.4. abulos bintis tirtu aiancum abulos bintis abulu louzocumB.5. uzeisunos bintis acainaz letontu uicanocum suostuno/sB.6. bintis tirtanos statulicum lesunos bintis nouantutazB.7. letontu aiancum melmunos bintis useizu aiancum tauro [bin]/tisB.8. abulu aiancum tauro bintis letontu leticum abulos bintisB.9. [ ]ucontaz letontu esocum abulos bintis

[gixajo]

Euskara is R1a language - proof ---> gixajo is R1a

My R1a comes from my Andalusian paternal line.

Who is Basque is my mother, and her family, and she is H1q2

[gixajo]

The R1a of Gixajo come from his father that is from Andalucía. It is his mother the basque. He is 50% basque although lives in the basque región anyways.


A proof that basque and old Iberian language are related (ie, most of Spain spoke a basque like language, not just the basques):

The "bronce de botorrita" is written in Iberian (with some celtic words), and it has been translated with BASQUE. It is the link that proves that basque and iberian are totally related and half of Spain spoke some kind of proto-basque:

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronces_de_Botorrita




https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronces_de_Botorrita#/media/Archivo:Botorrita_1.jpg


Transcripción​[editar]
A.1. tirikantam percunetacam tocoitoscue sarnicio cue sua combalcez nelitomA.2. necue [u]ertaunei litom necue taunei litom necue masnai tizaunei litom soz aucuA.3. arestaio tamai uta oscues stena uerzoniti silabur sleitom conscilitom gabizetiA.4. cantom sancilistara otanaum tocoitei eni: uta oscuez boustomue coruinomueA.5. macasiamue ailamue ambitiseti camanom usabituz ozas sues sailo custa bizetuz iomA.6. asecati ambitincounei stena es uertai entara tiris matus tinbituz neito tiricantamA.7. eni onsatuz iomui listas titas zizonti somui iom arznas bionti iom custaicosA.8. arznas cuati ias ozias uertatosue temeiue robiseti saum decametinas datuz someiA.9. enitouzei iste ancios iste esancios uze areitena sarniciei acainacubosA.10. nebintor tocoitei ios ur antiomue auzeti aratimue decametam datuz iom tocoitoscueA.11. sarniciocue aiuizas combalcores aleites iste icues ruzimuz abulu ubocumB.1. lubos counesicum melnunos bintis letontu litocumB.2. abulos bintis melmu barauzanco lesunos bintisB.3. letontu ubocum turo bintis lubinaz aiu bercanticumB.4. abulos bintis tirtu aiancum abulos bintis abulu louzocumB.5. uzeisunos bintis acainaz letontu uicanocum suostuno/sB.6. bintis tirtanos statulicum lesunos bintis nouantutazB.7. letontu aiancum melmunos bintis useizu aiancum tauro [bin]/tisB.8. abulu aiancum tauro bintis letontu leticum abulos bintisB.9. [ ]ucontaz letontu esocum abulos bintis

1-Contrabia Belaisca(Botorrita) was a neighbouring city of Vascon zones(Alaun or Calagurris.)

2-Botorrita bronzes are supposed to be arbitration resolutions of disputes between neighboring cities. They should be exposed in public places, in all the cities related to the litigation. So if the dispute was with a neighboring Vascon city, and it had another language, even if Contrebia did not use the vascon language, it would have the vascon language in its bronze.(better the language used by Vascons, it could be the same that celtiberians used)

3-The only bronze translated accurately, is one written in Latin, the rest (have a little to translate, basically they are lists of people's names).

4-Many interpretations have been proposed, using different known languages ​​as an aid to aid in their translation. Basque is one more of those auxiliary languages ​​used, that interpretation using Basque as an auxiliary, is one more among many, which does not mean that Celtiberian and Basque are similar.(although everything seems to indicate that they were probably closely related.)

I think that nowadays Basque was related with prerroman languages used in the Iberian peninsula, but Botorrita Bronzes cannot demonstrate it.(in a way as definitive as it should be to be considered something totally true)

I opine also, that the "vasconización tardía" hypothesis is quite true also, and that that is the reason because Basque is spoken in Basque Country peninsula nowadays. The reduct of proto-Basque language was Aquitania (that was always related with Iberian and Iberians in Roman texts)at least one of proto-basque languages that existed, related with Iberian celtiberian languages but not exactly the same, and after the fall of Rome, they settled in the current Basque country and north of Navarre, displacing or mixing with local population, which by then would be mostly Romance speakers (although genetically very similar to the Aquitaine people).

And Euskera is not an artificial language strictally (as Esperanto is), Euskera batua could be considered as "artificial" but the word that defines it is "unified".People that use Euskera in their daily life, use the dialect of their areas. Batua is formed by a grammar and vocabulary selected among different dialects, so that any speaker of any Basque dialect can understand it.

[gixajo]

In short, for me Basque (genetically) and Iberian are the same. Only the current Basques have less foreign mix than the rest of the peninsulars. But the majority base is common. And that shared common base (except in individuals with recent foreign genetic contribution) is between 80 and 95%.

I am speaking about those considered "pure" basques genetically, that just now could be about 30% of the whole population of Basque Country and Navarre in Spain, and maybe the 10-15% of the whole population of Aquitaine.

[Rethel]

In my country, this theory is no longer believed as it used to be.
We are Mingrelians, Svans and Laz, they are Kolkhi, that is, Western Georgians.
In ancient times, Eastern Georgians were called Iberians by the authors. This is where the theory about the relationship of Georgians and Basques originated.
I don't believe in her.
Everything is too exaggerated in this theory.

As a caucasian speaker, do you see any resemblance between kartvelian and basque languages, and between kartvelian and other caucasian languages?

Couple of days ago, I heard Kadyrow in chechen. It sounded more like chinese, than georgian. Even not like dagestani languages which sounds more hard, like semitic.

But of course, sounding is one thing, and relation another. Do you see any?

[Rethel]

Only the current Basques have less foreign mix than the rest of the peninsulars

It depends what you mean as foreigners, because in the case of Basques, they have more IEs than the rest.
Basques up to 80-90%, rest of the penninsula around 65%. A huge difference.


I am speaking about those considered "pure" basques genetically,

No pure ones becasue as above. And none is pure WHG either.

[Rethel]

And Euskera is not an artificial language strictally (as Esperanto is), Euskera batua could be considered as "artificial" but the word that defines it is "unified".People that use Euskera in their daily life, use the dialect of their areas. Batua is formed by a grammar and vocabulary selected among different dialects, so that any speaker of any Basque dialect can understand it.

Do you speak it, or do you speak also some dialect?

[Gota_type_]

I said "today´s basque is artifical" in the sense that it only uses SOME of the dialects and they have made a mix that privileges some of the dialects over the others, so, it is not real old euskera, it should be noted as the real euskera spoken in a certain área (creo que es Vizcaya) but not the euskera spoken in let´s say in the north of Navarra. But, yes, I should have used "unified" as the proper adjetive (I am not used to that word that you probably hear more when dealing with basque language things). Everyone knows that basque is the oldest language in western Europa and it is something to be proud about it (aunq se deberían descartar los politiqueos pues solo sirven para excluir).

Los bronces de Botorrita son una serie de planchas de bronce del siglo I a. C. encontradas en Contrebia Belaisca, en Cabezo de las Minas, cerca de la actual Botorrita, en las proximidades de Zaragoza. Zona íbera o celtíbera, obviamente con vinculaciones "vascas" pues en aquellas épocas el euskera llegaba casi hasta Cataluña (por la parte del Pirineo).

Si la mayoría de los vascos son R1b DF27, al igual q la mayoría de los que habitan en la zona donde se hablaba el antiguo íbero, está claro que son grupos poblacionales vinculados y hermanados (tb con el resto de España, pero no hay una prueba lingüística tan clara por aquello de la llegada de los celtas más bien al Oeste y Norte de España). Así que el hecho de q se pueda traducir el bronce de botorrita con el aquitano, ya prueba q había demasiadas coincidencias entre lenguas. Y posiblemente los habitantes de toda la Península (antes de los celtas) y posiblemente de otras zonas de Europa, hablarían un lenguaje no muy diferente al íbero o al euskera. Baste ver que hay topónimos de ríos o montes, incluso en Avila o Granada que son claramente vinculados a algo en euskera.


1-Contrabia Belaisca(Botorrita) was a neighbouring city of Vascon zones(Alaun or Calagurris.)

2-Botorrita bronzes are supposed to be arbitration resolutions of disputes between neighboring cities. They should be exposed in public places, in all the cities related to the litigation. So if the dispute was with a neighboring Vascon city, and it had another language, even if Contrebia did not use the vascon language, it would have the vascon language in its bronze.(better the language used by Vascons, it could be the same that celtiberians used)

3-The only bronze translated accurately, is one written in Latin, the rest (have a little to translate, basically they are lists of people's names).

4-Many interpretations have been proposed, using different known languages ​​as an aid to aid in their translation. Basque is one more of those auxiliary languages ​​used, that interpretation using Basque as an auxiliary, is one more among many, which does not mean that Celtiberian and Basque are similar.(although everything seems to indicate that they were probably closely related.)

I think that nowadays Basque was related with prerroman languages used in the Iberian peninsula, but Botorrita Bronzes cannot demonstrate it.(in a way as definitive as it should be to be considered something totally true)

I opine also, that the "vasconización tardía" hypothesis is quite true also, and that that is the reason because Basque is spoken in Basque Country peninsula nowadays. The reduct of proto-Basque language was Aquitania (that was always related with Iberian and Iberians in Roman texts)at least one of proto-basque languages that existed, related with Iberian celtiberian languages but not exactly the same, and after the fall of Rome, they settled in the current Basque country and north of Navarre, displacing or mixing with local population, which by then would be mostly Romance speakers (although genetically very similar to the Aquitaine people).

And Euskera is not an artificial language strictally (as Esperanto is), Euskera batua could be considered as "artificial" but the word that defines it is "unified".People that use Euskera in their daily life, use the dialect of their areas. Batua is formed by a grammar and vocabulary selected among different dialects, so that any speaker of any Basque dialect can understand it.