Cana'anite DNA

[Longbowman]

From a paper released today.

http://www.cell.com/ajhg/fulltext/S0002-9297(17)30276-8

5 Canaanite individuals from Israel, 1700BC. 2 males, 3 females.

They compared them autosomally to Lebanese people and found 91% similarity, which is a little surprising; also that they cluster with EBA people from Jordan, showing genetic continuity in the region for thousands of years, etc. Authors hypothesise that J came to the Levant alongside Iran_Chalcolithic type ancestry as it was absent before that (ie, Natufians were E).

Sidon_BA (ancient Lebanon) was found to be closer to Assyrians, MENA Jews and even Sephardim than Lebanese Muslims, however.

YDNA
1x J1-P58
1x J2-M12

the former very common amongst Jews, Arabs, Levantines, the latter found over the MENA and Albania too.

MTDNA
1x N1a3a
1x HV1b1
1x K1a2
1x R2
1x H1bc

Very varied, nothing out of the ordinary for a MENA group however.

[Sacrificed Ram]

Cohen'nanites.

[Longbowman]

Cohen'nanites.

J1-P58 is found at much higher frequencies amongst certain Arab groups than Cohanim, which are a bottlenecked population anyhow (most Cohen J1-p58 comes from one individual who lived 2600 years ago). Three quarters of marsh arabs have it. Anyhow this does prove J1-P58 was in Israel before it was Israel.

Seems today's Lebs can be modelled (doesn't mean they are) as 93% Canaanite, 7% Steppe. Christian Lebs only though.

[Sacrificed Ram]

It just means canaanites were already an intrusion, they weren't just a continuum of natufians. Natufians were E-Z830 yDNA.

[Sikeliot]

Where is their Gedmatch ID?

[Longbowman]

It just means canaanites were already an intrusion, they weren't just a continuum of natufians. Natufians were E-Z830 yDNA.

Probably means E-Z830 was pre-Semitic.

[Sacrificed Ram]

Probably means E-Z830 was pre-Semitic.

Were Semitics calcolithics from Iran?

[Hamlet]

Are there GEDmatches for any ancient DNA?

[Rethel]

Ergo not originals.


Probably means E-Z830 was pre-Semitic.

Finally you got it. :thumb001:
Better late, than at all.

[Longbowman]

Finally you got it. :thumb001:
Better late, than at all.

Of course, this would assume that the Bible is mostly fictional, as we have here Canaanites who are J1-P58!

[Hamlet]

Are Jews really different from Canannites? The lore says Jews come from Mesopotamia, which sort of makes sense given the whole Armenoid thing, but there is no archaeological record of this (no, not Jews returning from Babylonian exile), so it's probably fiction like the rest of the Bible. I think what we have here is DNA from the "original" Jews, which I didn't think we had before.

A good test would be to see if the results are indicative of red hair alleles, as I'm pretty positive this was present in the ancient Judean population.

[Hamlet]

I fucking wish there was a GEDmatch for this, they better upload at some point...

[Palopalo]

Both Jordan_BA and Sidon_BA overlap the Palestinian cluster, actually.

https://i.imgur.com/UEhNgkb_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=high

[Hamlet]

Both Jordan_BA and Sidon_BA overlap the Palestinian cluster, actually.

https://i.imgur.com/UEhNgkb_d.jpg?maxwidth=640&shape=thumb&fidelity=high

Really? That seems super unlikely to me.

[Governor]

Longbow, have you ever searched gedmatch for this?

[Palopalo]

Seems today's Lebs can be modelled (doesn't mean they are) as 93% Canaanite, 7% Steppe. Christian Lebs only though.

Hm no. That average includes Christians and Muslims/Druzes.

''A pooled Lebanese sequence dataset (99 low coverage plus 4 high coverage) was used in all analyses except for the PCA and ADMIXTURE where a subset of 15 randomly selected individuals (5 from EACH group described in Figure S5) was used to avoid sample size bias.''

[Palopalo]

Really? That seems super unlikely to me.

Not really, Lebs and Palestinians plot close to each other, the main difference is the Steppe admixture in Lebs which lacks among Palestinians and Sidon_BA/Jordan_BA, which is enough to pull the Lebs a bit northward.

[Rethel]

Of course, this would assume that the Bible is mostly fictional, as we have here Canaanites who are J1-P58!

:picard2:

As always - zero logic, only hate.

[Longbowman]

Longbow, have you ever searched gedmatch for this?

Idk if they have a GEDmatch account, it's been a day.

[Longbowman]

Hm no. That average includes Christians and Muslims/Druzes. '

Sorry, by Lebanese I mean only Christian Lebanese, they were the ones in the study because Druze and Muslim Lebanese are known to have recent admixture.

[Longbowman]

:picard2:

As always - zero logic, only hate.

As always, further posts from you on this thread will be deleted.

[Kamal900]

Sorry, by Lebanese I mean only Christian Lebanese, they were the ones in the study because Druze and Muslim Lebanese are known to have recent admixture.

Yeah. Muslim Levantines have Arabian and SSA admixture than their Christian counterparts, though I'm not so sure about the Druze. I do wish that they compare the samples with other peoples of the Levant other than the Christians. Hopefully, they will release their gedmatch kits to see their oracle results.

[Sikeliot]

Yeah. Muslim Levantines have Arabian and SSA admixture than their Christian counterparts

and European, which is likely British, French, and Norman.

[Kamal900]

and European, which is likely British, French, and Norman.

That too. In the past, I thought that European admixture in Levantines are found in Christians, but the truth is that it's found in Muslims which makes sense because Islam actually forbids the idea of borders and racism in general, and of course due to the slave trade and all that as well.

[Sikeliot]

That too. In the past, I thought that European admixture in Levantines are found in Christians, but the truth is that it's found in Muslims which makes sense because Islam actually forbids the idea of borders and racism in general, and of course due to the slave trade and all that as well.

I think it is reflected in haplogroups I1 and R1b, which are rare in Lebanon but exists only in some Muslims and match that of the Celto-Italic branches.

[Longbowman]

Yeah. Muslim Levantines have Arabian and SSA admixture than their Christian counterparts, though I'm not so sure about the Druze. I do wish that they compare the samples with other peoples of the Levant other than the Christians. Hopefully, they will release their gedmatch kits to see their oracle results.

It's not about SSA, some Druze came from places like Yemen. They're quite heterogeneous.

[Kamal900]

It's not about SSA, some Druze came from places like Yemen. They're quite heterogeneous.

Yeah. I remember one druze guy from Syria told me that they're from the Arabian tribe called Banu Judham. I say that the Christians and the Jews from Syria, Iraq and other MENA countries are very closely related to these ancient Canaanite people in this study since they have very little foreign admixture in their genepool.

[Longbowman]

Yeah. I remember one druze guy from Syria told me that they're from the Arabian tribe called Banu Judham. I say that the Christians and the Jews from Syria, Iraq and other MENA countries are very closely related to these ancient Canaanite people in this study since they have very little foreign admixture in their genepool.

That's what the study found.

[Kamal900]

That's what the study found.

Which is a very good and insightful study, yes. 2017 is indeed a good year.

[Sacrificed Ram]

It's not about SSA, some Druze came from places like Yemen. They're quite heterogeneous.

Isn't only druzes that claims origins in Yemen...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnCwuiYqjnE

[Palopalo]

Sorry, by Lebanese I mean only Christian Lebanese, they were the ones in the study because Druze and Muslim Lebanese are known to have recent admixture.

Out of the 99 modern Lebanese in the study, Muslims/Druzes are the majority and Muslims alone the plurality. Christians also have recent admixture, Armenian ancestry is widespread among Maronites for instance.

[Palopalo]

Isn't only druzes that claims origins in Yemen...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnCwuiYqjnE

Right. Most Levantine Arab Christians claim their roots back to Yemen. Basically everyone in the Levant does actually lol

[Pulsa Dinura]

Armenian ancestry is widespread among Maronites for instance. Lol, but please continue...:cool:

[Pulsa Dinura]

Right. Most Levantine Arab Christians claim their roots back to Yemen. Basically everyone in the Levant does actually lol"Levantine Arab Christians" and "Levantine Arab Jews" do not exist except in the mind of Arab nationalists. Real Arab Christians were decimated in Arabia or became Muslims.

[Pulsa Dinura]

Out of the 99 modern Lebanese in the study, Muslims/Druzes are the majority and Muslims alone the plurality. Christians also have recent admixture, Armenian ancestry is widespread among Maronites for instance.Under Figure 7 you can read:

"We chose Lebanese_Christian to represent present-day Lebanese in this test as this population has been shown to be relatively isolated and had no significant admixture in recent times with neighbouring populations. In this and following figures we plot the f4 statistic value and ±3 standard errors."

http://www.cell.com/ajhg/pdfExtended/S0002-9297(17)30276-8

Salutations to Armenia 🇦🇲 and Yemen 🇾🇪

[Sacrificed Ram]

"Levantine Arab Christians" and "Levantine Arab Jews" do not exist except in the mind of Arab nationalists. Real Arab Christians were decimated in Arabia or became Muslims.

According your criterion all arabs are extinct, after they mixed with a lot of circassian, balkanics, tatar, blacks, indo-malaio, etc.

[Kamal900]

"Levantine Arab Christians" and "Levantine Arab Jews" do not exist except in the mind of Arab nationalists. Real Arab Christians were decimated in Arabia or became Muslims.

Ironically, it's the Christians of the Levant that invented Arab nationalism or Baathism in the first place, lol. Jews are an ethno-religious group, and they're certainly aren't Arabs regardless that the Jews that used to live in the Arab world spoke Arabic as their first language. There are some Bedouins in Jordan that are still adhering to the Christian faith today though.

[Sikeliot]

Ironically, it's the Christians of the Levant that invented Arab nationalism or Baathism in the first place, lol. Jews are an ethno-religious group, and they're certainly aren't Arabs regardless that the Jews that used to live in the Arab world spoke Arabic as their first language. There are some Bedouins in Jordan that are still adhering to the Christian faith today though.

I know some Iraqi Jews who identify as "Arab Jews" for some reason. I never understood it.

[Köstebek]

Out of the 99 modern Lebanese in the study, Muslims/Druzes are the majority and Muslims alone the plurality. Christians also have recent admixture, Armenian ancestry is widespread among Maronites for instance.

Are Lebanese christians Anatolian mix?

[Kamal900]

I know some Iraqi Jews who identify as "Arab Jews" for some reason. I never understood it.

Either because they're sympathetic to the Arabs or they simply adhere to the local culture of Iraq which is Arabic.

[Longbowman]

I know some Iraqi Jews who identify as "Arab Jews" for some reason. I never understood it.

Mostly internet leftwingers born and raised in America or elsewhere in the West. I think we're both thinking of the same people.

[Sacrificed Ram]

Arabs converted to judaism isn't absurd. The herodian rulers of Judah are claimed be of arab origin. Possibly yemeni jews are arab converts.

[Pulsa Dinura]

Ironically, it's the Christians of the Levant that invented Arab nationalism or Baathism in the first place, lol.

"Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no one was listening, everything must be said again." André Gide


Arab Nationalism

"Sāṭi` al-Ḥuṣrī (in Arabic: ساطع الحصري, in Turkish: Mustafa Satı Bey, August 1880 – 1968) was an Ottoman and Syrian writer, educationalist and an influential Arab nationalist thinker in the 20th century."

Mustafa, a Christian from the Levant, mou?

Arabic only spread through northern Mesopotamia and Egypt after the Muslim conquest. Arabic was not used in these areas.

What if the Umeyyads succeeded in occupying Spain and France (till Poitiers), like they occupied the whole actual "arab world” , would Spain and France become Arab today?

Baathism:

Not only Michel Aflaq, one of the founders of the Baath party converted to Islam, but he also linked unfailingly the Arab identity to Islam.

He died Ahmad Michel Aflaq.

Here’s a pic of his tomb, where you can quietly recite Surat Al Fatiha.

66111

So Baathism was not created for Levantine Christians nor by Levantine Christians.


Jews are an ethno-religious group, and they're certainly aren't Arabs regardless that the Jews that used to live in the Arab world spoke Arabic as their first language. Levantine Christians were Arabs before the Arab razzia?


There are some Bedouins in Jordan that are still adhering to the Christian faith today though.Some? 10, 50? they must be the remnants of the last Arab Christians Dhimmis.

https://joshuaproject.net/people_groups/10758/JO

According to this website, Jordanian Christian Bedouins represent 0,01 % of the Bedouin population.

From the same site:

"What are their (Jordanian Bedouins) beliefs?

Islam's prophet Mohammed was born and raised in the Bedouin tribe of the Quraish. The Qur'an, first revealed to Mohammed, was later written and compiled in the Arabic language. The first converts to Islam came from the Bedouin tribes living in and around Mecca. Therefore, Islam is embedded and deeply rooted in Bedouin culture. Although there are pockets of Christians in Bedouin tribes, by and large the word Bedouin is synonymous with being a follower of Islam Prayer is an integral part of Bedouin life. As there are no formal mosques in the desert, they pray where they are, facing Mecca and performing the ritual washing, preferably with water. Since water is not always readily available, they 'wash' with sand instead."

[Sacrificed Ram]

What does differ Iranian Chalcolithic from current iranians?

[Pulsa Dinura]

According your criterion all arabs are extinct.No, Arabs are not extinct, they are all living in the Arabian Peninsula.


after they mixed with a lot of circassian, balkanics, tatar, blacks, indo-malaio, etc.Does it mean that Circassians, Balkanites, Tatars, Blacks, Indo-Malay... became Arabs?

[Sacrificed Ram]

No, Arabs are not extinct, they are all living in the Arabian Peninsula.

Does it mean that Circassian, Balkanites, Tatars, Blacks, Indo-Malay... became Arabs?

You know that muslim arabs tend to have many wives and some even distant places of the world (I know even brazilian women married with muslim arabs). Are their mutt offspring creditable to be called arabs?

[Pulsa Dinura]

You know that muslim arabs tend to have many wives and some even distant places of the world (I know even brazilian women married with muslim arabs). Are their mutt offspring creditable to be called arabs?
Do those Muslim Arabs have a nationality? If they are from the Arabian Peninsula, then definitely they are Arabs.

[Sacrificed Ram]

Do those Muslim Arabs have a nationality? If they are from the Arabian Peninsula, then definitely they are Arabs.

Jus Soli. I'm an amerind.

[jingorex]

how very disappointing that must be.

no G1.

[Kamal900]

"Everything that needs to be said has already been said. But since no one was listening, everything must be said again." André Gide


Arab Nationalism

"Sāṭi` al-Ḥuṣrī (in Arabic: ساطع الحصري, in Turkish: Mustafa Satı Bey, August 1880 – 1968) was an Ottoman and Syrian writer, educationalist and an influential Arab nationalist thinker in the 20th century."

Mustafa, a Christian from the Levant, mou?

Arabic only spread through northern Mesopotamia and Egypt after the Muslim conquest. Arabic was not used in these areas.

What if the Umeyyads succeeded in occupying Spain and France (till Poitiers), like they occupied the whole actual "arab world” , would Spain and France become Arab today?

Baathism:

Not only Michel Aflaq, one of the founders of the Baath party converted to Islam, but he also linked unfailingly the Arab identity to Islam.

He died Ahmad Michel Aflaq.

Here’s a pic of his tomb, where you can quietly recite Surat Al Fatiha.

66111

So Baathism was not created for Levantine Christians nor by Levantine Christians.

Levantine Christians were Arabs before the Arab razzia?

Some? 10, 50? they must be the remnants of the last Arab Christians Dhimmis.

https://joshuaproject.net/people_groups/10758/JO

According to this website, Jordanian Christian Bedouins represent 0,01 % of the Bedouin population.

From the same site:

"What are their (Jordanian Bedouins) beliefs?

Islam's prophet Mohammed was born and raised in the Bedouin tribe of the Quraish. The Qur'an, first revealed to Mohammed, was later written and compiled in the Arabic language. The first converts to Islam came from the Bedouin tribes living in and around Mecca. Therefore, Islam is embedded and deeply rooted in Bedouin culture. Although there are pockets of Christians in Bedouin tribes, by and large the word Bedouin is synonymous with being a follower of Islam Prayer is an integral part of Bedouin life. As there are no formal mosques in the desert, they pray where they are, facing Mecca and performing the ritual washing, preferably with water. Since water is not always readily available, they 'wash' with sand instead."

The word Levantine was an Arabic term given by the invading Arab armies in the 7th century. Um, yes, Levantine christians had a large role in the Arab nationalist movement:

Arabism and regional patriotism (such as in Egypt or in the Levant) mixed and gained predominance over Ottomanism among some Arabs in Syria and Lebanon. Ibrahim al-Yazigi, a Lebanese Christian philosopher, called for the Arabs to "recover their lost ancient vitality and throw off the yoke of the Turks" in 1868. A secret society promoting this goal was formed in the late 1870s, with al-Yazigi as a member. The group placed placards in Beirut calling for a rebellion against the Ottomans. Meanwhile, other Lebanese and Damascus-based notables, mostly Muslims, formed similar secret movements, although they differed as Christian groups who disfavoured Arabism called for a completely independent Lebanon while the Muslim Arab societies generally promoted an autonomous Greater Syria still under Ottoman rule.[12]

As early as 1870, Syrian Christian writer Francis Marrash distinguished the notion of fatherland from that of nation; when applying the latter to Greater Syria, he pointed to the role played by language, besides customs and belief in common interests, in defining national identity.[13] This distinction between fatherland and nation was also made by Hasan al-Marsafi in 1881. By the beginning of the 20th century, groups of Muslim Arabs embraced an Arab nationalist "self-view" that would provide as the basis of the Arab nationalist ideology of the 20th century. This new version of Arab patriotism was directly influenced by the Islamic modernism and revivalism of Muhammad Abduh, the Egyptian Muslim scholar. Abduh believed the Arabs' Muslim ancestors bestowed "rationality on mankind and created the essentials of modernity," borrowed by the West. Thus, while Europe advanced from adopting the modernist ideals of true Islam, the Muslims failed, corrupting and abandoning true Islam.[12] Abduh influenced modern Arab nationalism in particular, because the revival of true Islam's ancestors (who were Arabs) would also become the revival of Arab culture and the restoration of the Arab position as the leaders of the Islamic world. One of Abduh's followers, Abd al-Rahman al-Kawakibi, openly declared that the Ottoman Empire should be both Turkish and Arab, with the latter exercising religious and cultural leadership.[14]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_nationalism#Origins

Again, just the fact that the Christians, Druze and the 3alawis are more purer than others that doesn't mean they have cultural links to the ancient Canaanite tribes like the Jews do today. In fact, maronites are more Syriac than Phoenician culturally, and the Phoenician language was long extinct before the arrival of Islam in the 7th century. Yes, these Bedouins are Christians which further proves the point that Arabs as a whole existed way before Islam. The Ghassinids and the Lakhmids were the two notable Arab christian tribes in pre-Islamic times.

[jingorex]

are they called canaanite because of brother Caine and Abel?

[Sacrificed Ram]

are they called canaanite because of brother Caine and Abel?

No, it is how the ancient egyptians called the lands in Southern Levant.

[Pulsa Dinura]

are they called canaanite because of brother Caine and Abel?

http://www.ancient.eu/canaan/

The origin of the name `Canaan’ for the land comes from various ancient texts (among them the Hebrew Bible) and there is no scholarly consensus on precisely where the name originated nor what it was intended to convey about the land. According to the Bible the land was named after a man called Canaan, the grandson of Noah (Genesis 10). Other theories cite `Canaan’ as derived from the Hurrian language for `purple’ and, as the Greeks knew the Canaanites as `Phoenicians’ (Greek for `purple’ as the Phoenicians worked, primarily at the city of Tyre, in purple dye and so were called by the Greeks `purple people’) this explanation is the most probable but, by no means, provable.

[Palopalo]

Under Figure 7 you can read:

"We chose Lebanese_Christian to represent present-day Lebanese in this test as this population has been shown to be relatively isolated and had no significant admixture in recent times with neighbouring populations. In this and following figures we plot the f4 statistic value and ±3 standard errors."

http://www.cell.com/ajhg/pdfExtended/S0002-9297(17)30276-8

Salutations to Armenia 🇦🇲 and Yemen 🇾🇪

Only in the affinity test. Here's the PCA of the 99 modern Lebs used in the study, majority are Muslims/Druzes.

http://i.imgur.com/FWJoFTn.png?1

''A pooled Lebanese sequence dataset (99 low coverage plus 4 high coverage) was used in all analyses except for the PCA and ADMIXTURE where a subset of 15 randomly selected individuals (5 from each group described in Figure S5) was used to avoid sample size bias.''

What I'm trying to say is even if Christians have more actual Canaanite given the affinity results, the 93% figure includes the three groups (Muslims, Christians, Druzes) and not only the Christians.

[Palopalo]

I know some Iraqi Jews who identify as "Arab Jews" for some reason. I never understood it.

It'd make more sense if they identified as ethnic Assyrians given that they mostly descend from Assyrian converts. Just like Yemeni Jews descend from Yemeni/South Arabian converts.

[Longbowman]

It'd make more sense if they identified as ethnic Assyrians given that they mostly descend from Assyrian converts. Just like Yemeni Jews descend from Yemeni/South Arabian converts.

Nnnno.

[safrax]

Cohen'nanites.

interesting. There are lots of blue-eyed blondes under the Levites and Kohanim.

[Selurong]

In the Bible, the Jews invaded and expelled the Canaanites from the Levant. I'm surprised to learn that both Jews and Canaanites we're related.

[Enflamme]

Indo-europeans... true Europeans

[Longbowman]

In the Bible, the Jews invaded and expelled the Canaanites from the Levant. I'm surprised to learn that both Jews and Canaanites we're related.

As it turns out the Bible is mostly nonsense.

[Longbowman]

interesting. There are lots of blue-eyed blondes under the Levites and Kohanim.

Sorry what?

[Sikeliot]

What I'm trying to say is even if Christians have more actual Canaanite given the affinity results, the 93% figure includes the three groups (Muslims, Christians, Druzes) and not only the Christians.

Lebanese Christians are likely close to 100% Canaanite. The Muslims seem to have some West European which might increase the Steppe admixture.

[Rethel]

Lebanese Christians are likely close to 100% Canaanite.

All have one hg? http://emotikona.pl/emotikony/pic/036.gif

[Longbowman]

All have one hg? http://emotikona.pl/emotikony/pic/036.gif

Jesus Christ please shut the fuck up. We get it, you have a hard on for YDNA. No one else does. Stop following people around the forum and making the same stupid post over and fucking over again. This thread isn't for you as you don't consider either male Canaanite to be Canaanite as neither is E3b, so why don't you fuck off?

[Babak]

So what about the case in saudis then?

[Longbowman]

So what about the case in saudis then?

Idk man what about the Incas

[Babak]

Idk man what about the Incas

i remember you saying j1-p58 is what muhammad was lol and thats why most muslims are p58. Or probably it was someone else

[Kamal900]

As it turns out the Bible is mostly nonsense.

Well, we shouldn't look at religions for answers on history and whatnot. I mean, like, the Quran mentions on the fact that both Arabs and the Jews have a common ancestry from a biblical character named "Shem" or "Samy" in Arabic. But what genetic studies have shown is that the ancestors of the modern day Arabians and Jews were already diverged from one another in much earlier period before such ethnic distinction ever existed, and the closest genetic relatives of modern day Arabians are the Egyptians - both ancient and modern ones - who are neither Arabs or Semites but a unique Afro-Asiatic people native to North-East Africa which is part of the middle east(Egyptians are genetically middle eastern, not North Africans).

[Rethel]

This thread isn't for you

For all.


as you don't consider either male Canaanite to be Canaanite as neither is E3b,


If this is Canaanite lineage...


so why don't you fuck off?

Becasue idiocy is speading all around internet and ths forum too.
You can't be a medieval Frank and suddenly become a Canaanite... no way.
Canaaniteness is not a au/race - everyone who suggest that is an idiot.

[Rethel]

Well, we shouldn't look at religions for answers on history and whatnot.

Bible is correct about Canaanites, what this and other samples proved.
The fact than Longbowman said it isn't, doesn't make it true. He hates
his own culture, much more he hates the Bible, he also does not know
this book, so beliving him in that matter is simply nonsensical, cause he
will never admit he's wrong, he will never admit the Bible says truth even
if it is proven black on white, becasue he is purposly blinded and his goal
is to fight the God and the Bible even in such quite tiny matters like the
one-sentenced ancient statement about some ancient small tribe.

[Rethel]

Well, we shouldn't look at religions for answers on history and whatnot.

It depends which religion and what source.
Not all are equall. False religion is obviously
wrong - so, if you look at forgerd text it is
nothing strange, that he is not correct.


I mean, like, the Quran mentions

Koran is obviously a book full of lies and delusions,
so it is not good idea to looking there for historical
truth - but if some informations are rewritten from
the Bible, then they should be correct if were not
twisted - not because Koran says so, but because
the Bible was the source of it.


on the fact that both Arabs and the Jews have a common ancestry from a biblical character named "Shem" or "Samy" in Arabic.

Partialy yes.


But what genetic studies have shown is that the ancestors

And you are wrong at the start, because you did not read, what the Bible says, and
you took wrong measurment. Bible absolutly doesn't claim that Jews and Arabs have
the same autosomal ingridients. If you want to look at that this way, then obviously
your conclusions must be different than biblical. But people at that time were normal,
were not mentaly castrated like majority of TA-members, and when they said/wrote,
that some peoples are related to each other, then they meant, that they are coming
from the same forefather - definitly not that this what we call today autosomality was
the same and will be (from their point of view) not changed during next 4000 years.


of the modern day Arabians and Jews were already diverged from one another in much earlier period before such ethnic distinction ever existed,

As above. They did not known the word ethnic.
They were from that family or from another. Or
some slaves could be a property of that family
of another. Modern ethnicity, in addition viewed
as racial autosomal entity is huge missunderstanding.


and the closest genetic relatives of modern day Arabians are the Egyptians

You see, if you would at least read the Bible and some comments about
her, you would know, that before Semites in Arabia lived Hamites, and that
Ismael's mother was Egyptianess. You would also know, that Ishmael's wife
was from Egypt - then you would not accuse the Bible of saying untrue,
neither blaspheme supporting your claims by delusions of Mahomet and
Xth century comentators, which created many fictional genealogies.


- both ancient and modern ones - who are neither Arabs or Semites but a unique Afro-Asiatic people native to North-East Africa which is part of the middle east(Egyptians are genetically middle eastern, not North Africans).

It doesn;t matter who they are genetically, because their Semiteness does
not depends on their race, neither on migrations during last 4000 years... :picard2:

[Longbowman]

i remember you saying j1-p58 is what muhammad was lol and thats why most muslims are p58. Or probably it was someone else

It's very common amongst Arabs from Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria (Sunni Arabs from the ME basically) so it might be the case, but we don't know.


If this is Canaanite lineage...

You said you think it was!

[Rethel]

You said you think it was!

Yes, I said, and it is probably this, if Natufians were E, and if Canaanites were Natufians.

Just to few samles to say it on 100%, but I guess it will be this hg.

Canaanites definitly were not J or R.

In the preflood times, wich you do not remember,
it was thought, that Canaanites were T, some
people claimed that G. So, we'll see.

[Kamal900]

It's very common amongst Arabs from Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria (Sunni Arabs from the ME basically) so it might be the case, but we don't know.



You said you think it was!

Palestinian muslims and Jordanians also have high J1e as well:


In a genetic study of Y-chromosomal STRs in two populations from Israel and the Palestinian Authority Area: Christian and Muslim Palestinians showed genetic differences. The majority of Palestinian Christians (31.82%) were a subclade of E1b1b, followed by G2a (11.36%), and J1 (9.09%). The majority of Palestinian Muslims were haplogroup J1 (37.82%) followed by E1b1b (19.33%), and T (5.88%). The study sample consisted of 44 Palestinian Christians and 119 Palestinian Muslims.[180]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians#DNA_and_genetic_studies

[Rethel]

Palestinian muslims and Jordanians also have high J1e as well:

What is so strage if these lands were inhabited by Hebrews?
Israelites, Moabites, Ammonites, Edomites, Nabateans, Itureans aso?

[Longbowman]

Yes, I said, and it is probably this, if Natufians were E, and if Canaanites were Natufians.

Just to few samles to say it on 100%, but I guess it will be this hg.

Canaanites definitly were not J or R.

In the preflood times, wich you do not remember,
it was thought, that Canaanites were T, some
people claimed that G. So, we'll see.

You said all Hamites were E, you flaker.

[Selurong]

As it turns out the Bible is mostly nonsense.

Well, as a Catholic, the position of the Catholic Church was that the Bible shouldn't be open to personal interpretation and requires critical analysis. This was the case until, the Protestants came and opened it to personal interpretation.

Then we see the rise of people who takes the Bible literally instead of figuratively.

Furthermore, the Second Vatican Council approved that some parts of the Bible aren't consistent at all.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/is-everything-in-the-bible-true


According to Scripture scholar Raymond Brown, the awareness of these so-called historical errors moved the Church at Vatican II to teach that the Bible is free from error only in matters of faith and morals and not in matters of history and science (New Jerome Biblical Commentary, 1169). Brown supports this claim by appealing to section 11 of the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation (Dei Verbum), which reads, "we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture, firmly, faithfully and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures." The phrase "for the sake of our salvation" is the key reference used to argue that only those things needed for our salvation (i.e., faith and morals) and not history and science, are free from error.


Tell me please, what do Orthodox Jews think about the Pentateuch right now? Have they shifted from a literalist interpretation to a more pragmatic one yet?

[Selurong]

Bible is correct about Canaanites, what this and other samples proved.
The fact than Longbowman said it isn't, doesn't make it true. He hates
his own culture, much more he hates the Bible, he also does not know
this book, so beliving him in that matter is simply nonsensical, cause he
will never admit he's wrong, he will never admit the Bible says truth even
if it is proven black on white, becasue he is purposly blinded and his goal
is to fight the God and the Bible even in such quite tiny matters like the
one-sentenced ancient statement about some ancient small tribe.

I agree with you, that Longbowman, as an Atheist has an obvious, and sometimes controversial grudge against the Bible, but the Bible isn't the supreme authority of our Catholic faith. It's the Church itself, under the Magisterium, which has the power to interpret the Bible. The Bible has nuances and contexts that wouldn't make sense if all of it was just taken literally. Hence the need for an authority to interpret it.

[Rethel]

You said all Hamites were E, you flaker.

No. I said all E are Hamites. It is a difference.
But if you put it that way, the original speakers
of hamitic language/members of the north african
prototribe - were all E. Some other hgs can be and
surely are, descendent from Ham also, for example
A or B, but surely not J and not R.

[Rethel]

Well, as a Catholic, the position of the Catholic Church was that the Bible shouldn't be open to personal interpretation and requires critical analysis. This was the case until, the Protestants came and opened it to personal interpretation.

Then we see the rise of people who takes the Bible literally instead of figuratively.

Say it to pre-secundumvatikanists or even just post-2vaticanistic traditionalists.
They not only beive in the Bible literarly, but also in old church writings...


Furthermore, the Second Vatican Council approved that some parts of the Bible aren't consistent at all.

Vaticanum 2 was the apostasy from the apostasy, so what do you want to prove by this?


I agree with you, that Longbowman, as an Atheist has an obvious, and sometimes controversial grudge against the Bible, but the Bible isn't the supreme authority of our Catholic faith. It's the Church itself, under the Magisterium, which has the power to interpret the Bible.

So which interpretations are correct, these from XVth century or from XXIst?


The Bible has nuances and contexts that wouldn't make sense if all of it was just taken literally. Hence the need for an authority to interpret it.

The more you study this book, the more you will understand that
all has perfect coherent sense, and there is no "wrong" nuances.
If you never did it - so, how can you know? You only repeat the
statement of sombody's else.

[Morena]

Bible is correct about Canaanites, what this and other samples proved.
The fact than Longbowman said it isn't, doesn't make it true. He hates
his own culture, much more he hates the Bible, he also does not know
this book, so beliving him in that matter is simply nonsensical, cause he
will never admit he's wrong, he will never admit the Bible says truth even
if it is proven black on white, becasue he is purposly blinded and his goal
is to fight the God and the Bible even in such quite tiny matters like the
one-sentenced ancient statement about some ancient small tribe.

the bible claims that they are related. also the Arab thing, it says that Ishmael founded the ishmaelites.

[Longbowman]

Well, as a Catholic, the position of the Catholic Church was that the Bible shouldn't be open to personal interpretation and requires critical analysis. This was the case until, the Protestants came and opened it to personal interpretation.

Then we see the rise of people who takes the Bible literally instead of figuratively.

Furthermore, the Second Vatican Council approved that some parts of the Bible aren't consistent at all.
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/print-edition/is-everything-in-the-bible-true


According to Scripture scholar Raymond Brown, the awareness of these so-called historical errors moved the Church at Vatican II to teach that the Bible is free from error only in matters of faith and morals and not in matters of history and science (New Jerome Biblical Commentary, 1169). Brown supports this claim by appealing to section 11 of the Dogmatic Constitution on Divine Revelation (Dei Verbum), which reads, "we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture, firmly, faithfully and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures." The phrase "for the sake of our salvation" is the key reference used to argue that only those things needed for our salvation (i.e., faith and morals) and not history and science, are free from error.


Tell me please, what do Orthodox Jews think about the Pentateuch right now? Have they shifted from a literalist interpretation to a more pragmatic one yet?

Ultra/strictly - literal
Modern - 'pragmatic'

ofc as a Christian you are obliged not to take your holy books literally.

[Longbowman]

No. I said all E are Hamites. It is a difference.

no it isn't, you hypocrite, you insist on direct line male decent for everything. Only one line can be Hamite. Also you specifically said otherwise many times.

[Rethel]

the bible claims that they are related.

Bible only says, that some tribes in the northern Arabia are descendants
of Ishmael and other sons of Abraham. From the history it is known, that
some of them did migrate into deeper Arabia, like Kedarites, Dedanites or
Nabateans. So, it is possible, that part of Arabs does descend from Ismael,
and becasue they speak semitic - that much more are descendats of Shem.

Muslim sources are totaly worthless, becasue even Mahomet didn't know, who
is a descendant of Ishmael. He himself did not know. All muslim geanealogies were
created in Xth century or later. This so called "tradition" is quite new in reality.

Interesting fact is, that Mahomet knew only 17 ancestors and he cursed everyone
who would claim, that he had more. So his geanealogy ended somewhere in the first
or second century AD. To the Ishmael there is yet 2000 years 60-100 generations...

[Rethel]

no it isn't, you hypocrite, you insist on direct line male decent for everything. Only one line can be Hamite. Also you specifically said otherwise many times.

Take unto accountm, that Hamite depends of contexts. It is either descendants
of Ham or the people traditionaly called Hamites. Insted of dazzling by nagative
atheistic emotions, focuse on the matter, until another time you will say again to
someone, that he did claim something what he did not. Btw, if the matter is more
complex, it is obvious, that not at every occasion someone was explaining all this
complexity. So, please, do not try be more rethel than rethel himself.

[Sacrificed Ram]

i remember you saying j1-p58 is what muhammad was lol and thats why most muslims are p58. Or probably it was someone else

Most muslims are O-M175, Indonesia is the great muslim country of the world.

[Babak]

Most muslims are O-M175, Indonesia is the great muslim country of the world.

Err sorry i meant just saudi muslims lol

[Sacrificed Ram]

Err sorry i meant just saudi muslims lol

They are 70% J-P58, Yemenis reach 90% J-P58. But they are monotonous clades, the most diversity of J-P58 is in triple border Syria-Turkey-Iraq (kurds?). It shows the origin of this clade is in this area and after migrated to south into arabian penisula.

[justme]

Sorry, by Lebanese I mean only Christian Lebanese, they were the ones in the study because Druze and Muslim Lebanese are known to have recent admixture.
biggest bullshit I've heard in my life, more likely Christian Lebanese are mixed with European ancestry, no wonder why most of them speak french and can pass as Balkanites...

[Rethel]

no wonder why most of them speak french...

As every true Outremerian should :)

[Sikeliot]

When will their GEDmatch result be released? I would really like to see it.

[Sacrificed Ram]

Only remember:

This study doesn't say Lebaneses are descendents of Canaanites, but that Lebaneses and Canaanites are result of the same Neolithic and Iran-Chalcolithic admixture.

[Longbowman]

biggest bullshit I've heard in my life, more likely Christian Lebanese are mixed with European ancestry, no wonder why most of them speak french and can pass as Balkanites...

I'm sorry you don't like facts, and I'm sorry you for some reason find this personally offensive, but I'm not obliged to cater to your fantasies.

[justme]

I'm sorry you don't like facts, and I'm sorry you for some reason find this personally offensive, but I'm not obliged to cater to your fantasies.
ok whatever you say white wannabe

[Sikeliot]

ok whatever you say white wannabe

A. It is Lebanese MUSLIMS with minor European (and likely Norman/French) ancestry,
B. Lebanese do not look Balkan at all.

Sorry.

[Rethel]

ok whatever you say white wannabe

What wannabe?

[Longbowman]

ok whatever you say white wannabe

I don't identify as white, quite the opposite. My profile, literally three centimetres to the left of this sentence, makes that obvious. Why are you so offended? Muslim sympathies working in tandem with archaic and non-Islamic esteem for indigeneity?

either way please calm down, you're being hysterical.

[Neon Knight]

Muslim sympathies working in tandem with archaic and non-Islamic esteem for indigeneity?Try saying that when you've had a few!

[Dema]

What is this j2b-m12?



IT could be brother clade to j2b1 and j2b2 or?

[Natufian Kang]

Nothing surprising.

"Canaanites" were Hurrians (thus J1 and J2 carriers)according to the Egyptians, as for the Hebrews, just like Samaritan Cohanim and other Afrasians, they were E.

[Rethel]

Nothing surprising.

"Canaanites" were Hurrians (thus J1 and J2 carriers)according to the Egyptians, as for the Hebrews, just like Samaritan Cohanim and other Afrasians, they were E.

:picard2:



I don't identify as white, quite the opposite.

Really? Are you a black then? Brown? Beige? :bored:

[Natufian Kang]

https://img15.hostingpics.net/pics/620696Hurrians.png (https://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=620696Hurrians.png)

This is true tho.

[Rethel]

This is true tho.

The fact, that in Cisjordania were different people than Canaanites
(which I never denied) does not yet make from the real Canaanites
Semites or other people... They were who they were, regardless of
who arrived later. And Canaanites are precisly identfied, so there is
no way they could miraculously change their provenance.

[Catholic Riffs]

Davidic line is J..... E monkeys are shivering...

[Kamal900]

:picard2:




Really? Are you a black then? Brown? Beige? :bored:

He simply identifies himself as a Jew, no more no less. In my own opinion, they're in their own category.

[Natufian Kang]

Davidic line is J..... E monkeys are shivering...

Then David was not an Hebrew but a Canaanite/Hurrian language shifter, and J cucks are so weak that their languages were utterly destroyed by R1a and E warriors.

[Sikeliot]

He simply identifies himself as a Jew, no more no less. In my own opinion, they're in their own category.

If Jews aren't white then neither are Sicilians and Cretans.

[Longbowman]

If Jews aren't white then neither are Sicilians and Cretans.

Whiteness is social, not genetic. Sicilians are viewed as white and Jews often aren't.

[Longobarda]

Of course, this would assume that the Bible is mostly fictional, as we have here Canaanites who are J1-P58!

in Bronze age in Canaan there were sea people, i.e. Shardana, Thuata de Danaan, Meshwesh, Aquawash, Sakalasa etc. etc. Nearby in Lebanon existed the phoenician cities. These in brief. Furthermore the sea people went to their "original" lands (this is debated), i.e. Sardinia, Danemark, Achaia (Greece), Sicily. As far as we know also Ireland.

Yesterday I've read about the phoenician DNA and surprisingly there was no Lebanese corresponding to that DNA. What can we assume if the canaanite DNA has been foun in Lebanon?

[Decius]

Whiteness is social, not genetic. Sicilians are viewed as white and Jews often aren't.

Jews are usually viewed as white but the term white doesn't really mean anything I'm much more proud of being European heritage then white.

[Longbowman]

in Bronze age in Canaan there were sea people, i.e. Shardana, Thuata de Danaan, Meshwesh, Aquawash, Sakalasa etc. etc. Nearby in Lebanon existed the phoenician cities. These in brief. Furthermore the sea people went to their "original" lands (this is debated), i.e. Sardinia, Danemark, Achaia (Greece), Sicily. As far as we know also Ireland.

Yesterday I've read about the phoenician DNA and surprisingly there was no Lebanese corresponding to that DNA. What can we assume if the canaanite DNA has been foun in Lebanon?

AFAIK there are papers in the pipeline for Philistine (sea people) DNA so we will see about that soon.

What do you mean by your last question?

[Sikeliot]

Jews are usually viewed as white but the term white doesn't really mean anything I'm much more proud of being European heritage then white.

I am the reverse. I claim myself as white, but I don't view my heritage as fully European.

[Decius]

I am the reverse. I claim myself as white, but I don't view my heritage as fully European.

No one is really 100 percent euro

[Kamal900]

Of course, this would assume that the Bible is mostly fictional, as we have here Canaanites who are J1-P58!

Which tells us quite well on where the Arabs or Arabians originated. Yes, Arabians and Egyptians share the same ancestry in the Levant between late neolithic and early Bronze age periods. Yes, indeed. The bible is indeed a book of lolzy fiction as in the case for other religious texts.

[Sikeliot]

No one is really 100 percent euro

Sicilians are peripherally European/genetically it is questionable if they should be considered European, while I also have recent/traceable Cape Verdean ancestry. I understand myself to be racially white but I don't feel "European".

[spik]

Sicilians are peripherally European/genetically it is questionable if they should be considered European, while I also have recent/traceable Cape Verdean ancestry. I understand myself to be racially white but I don't feel "European".

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/163/392/8d5.gif

[Sikeliot]

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/163/392/8d5.gif

What do I have to do with her? She is of full North European descent but claims to be black. I recognize myself as white BUT I also have a mixed great grandmother, and my father is Sicilian which is peripherally European.

[Decius]

Sicilians are peripherally European/genetically it is questionable if they should be considered European, while I also have recent/traceable Cape Verdean ancestry. I understand myself to be racially white but I don't feel "European".

I consider you as a person of predominantly European descent but not fully because of youre Cape Verdean which groups do you plot closest to

[Sikeliot]

I consider you as a person of predominantly European descent but not fully because of youre Cape Verdean which groups do you plot closest to

North-central Italians, Balkan Slavs, Albanians, and northern Greeks.

[JQP4545]

So did the Semitic languages come with the Iranian Chalcalithic DNA or were they already there with Natufian? Did the ancient Egyptian culture come with this Chalcolithic DNA or was it founded by a native North African people?

[Sacrificed Ram]

So did the Semitic languages come with the Iranian Chalcalithic DNA or were they already there with Natufian? Did the ancient Egyptian culture come with this Chalcolithic DNA or was it founded by a native North African people?

Neolithics were afro-asiatic speakers, probable iranian chalcolitics were related with hurro-urartian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurro-Urartian_languages). Maybe semitic could be a result of a fusion.

Now about Ancient Egypt ever interacted with Levant, then something was obviously shared, like cattle and metalurgy.

[Haider]

Sidon_BA:ERS1790733

Global25

> getMonte('input.txt','target.txt')
[1] "1. CLOSEST SINGLE ITEM DISTANCES"

Lebanese_Christian 0.01462824
Lebanese_Druze 0.01633365
Lebanese_Muslim 0.01690026
Cypriot 0.01738823
Palestinian 0.01853043
Samaritan 0.02178326
Iraqi_Jew 0.02440474
Assyrian 0.02735772
Tunisian_Jew 0.02742950
England_Roman_o 0.02814001
Egyptian 0.02913936
Egyptian_mummy_769-560calBCE 0.03021738
Levant_BA 0.03439273

[Levant15]

Why you say that? MDLP K16 shows I have 8% steppe
Not really, Lebs and Palestinians plot close to each other, the main difference is the Steppe admixture in Lebs which lacks among Palestinians and Sidon_BA/Jordan_BA, which is enough to pull the Lebs a bit northward.

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