Could Indo-Europeans have spread by sea?

[Nyx]

Apparently the Indo-European language contains many words related to boat/boating sea and lake. Here's a quote from an interesting article:


I took a good look at the terms describing the PIE homeland. There are several words meaning sea, lake and shore, and several for mountain or hill. There are quite a few terms describing trees of various species; yew, beech, willow, birch, fir, ash, oak/hornbeam; all of these describe a fairly cool environment. There’s also a word for snow, and one for ice. Wherever they lived had big lake/seas and boats, as well as mountians. It also knew bears, wolves and and lions (lions used to be seen all through Eurasia and Africa). There have been attempts to put words like monkey and elephant into PIE, but these seem to be Semitic loan words. Leopard however, may deserve a place, as these are found in mountainous areas in the Caspain/Black Sea area. The flora suggests somewhere cooler than Anatolia.


This area is also mountainous; and home to willow, birch,yew and hornbeam trees. It even has a leopard native to it (suggested but not proven as a PIE word). The best match I can find for the flora is on the Black Sea coast of the trans-Caucasus area around Krasnodar, so pretty much the area that was picked for the Kurgan hypothesis, just slightly more into the mountainous areas to the South. I’m not pro the steppes areas in the more Northern possible zone as a homeland, as these wouldn’t account for the plethora of sea/boating related terms, or the trees, or the mountains. These people had plenty of words for mountain and boating, and the steppes, by their nature, are flat, fairly treeless and not easy to sail on.

Something I've been wondering as well is that some of the Gallic tribes (who descended from IE) were experts at seafaring, which doesn't make sense since if IE spread only by land, the knowledge about seafaring would have been lost. Also from the black sea the entire coast of Europe is available for colonization. It could also explain the r1b in Africa since you would need a boat traversing the Nile to get there.

I don't know anything about genetics, anyone knows if that's possible?

[Ouistreham]

This is quite interesting, and I'd like it to be true (I have a passion for sailing, I'm just back from a cruise in the Swedish West Coast archipelago — Göteborg - Marstrand - Lysekil, for those who know).

Alas, there is no much doubt that IE invasions and conquests were primarily made by horse riding warriors, by land, and that only in the second phase they begun developping sea-faring abilities. This is the story of the Greeks, the Celts, the Romans, the Germanics.

Besides, the fact that IE Urheimat was extending from the Caspian Sea to the Baltic Sea (an area with plenty of mighty rivers in the South-East, and lakes in the North-West) may explain the many commonalities between IE languages as for the words related to waterways and navigation.

[Nyx]

This is quite interesting, and I'd like it to be true (I have a passion for sailing, I'm just back from a cruise in the Swedish West Coast archipelago — Göteborg - Marstrand - Lysekil, for those who know).

Alas, there is no much doubt that IE invasions and conquests were primarily made by horse riding warriors, by land, and that only in the second phase they begun developping sea-faring abilities. This is the story of the Greeks, the Celts, the Romans, the Germanics.

Besides, the fact that IE Urheimat was extending from the Caspian Sea to the Baltic Sea (an area with plenty of mighty rivers in the South-East, and lakes in the North-West) may explain the many commonalities between IE languages as for the words related to waterways and navigation.

There's no reason to think they couldn't have used both methods. The Veneti in Gaul as an example were very different culturally from the surrounding tribes and didn't see themselves as Celts. Read this excerpt, I think you'll find it interresting. I've highlighted the important part.

"Here is how Caesar describes the Veneti: "This people is very much the strongest on the maritime coast. It is they who possess the greatest number of ships, and its fleet engages in trade with the Isle of Britain. It is superior to others by its navigational science and experience. Finally, as the sea is violent and liberally beats upon a coast where there are but few ports, of which they are the masters, almost all those who normally sail in these waters are their serviteurs".

These Veneti, who occupied the southern coast of Armorica, almost the entire expanse between the Vilaine and the Odet, were the masters of navigation in the Atlantic, but also in the Channel since they had commercial ties with the Isle of Britain. In any event, this contradicts the earlier assertion that the Celts were land bound. Or else, it implies that the Celts were amenable to the fact that the Veneti occupied themselves with navigation in their stead. If this is the case, it would further support the contention that the Veneti were not Celts, but a Celtically influenced nonindigenous population. What complicates this matter is that there were Veneti elsewhere who were by chance, skillful navigators. These are the Veneti of the Adriatic, otherwise known as the Venetians. Regarding them the Greek historian Polybius said, "This ancient nation is hardly distinguishable from the other Gallic peoples by dress and custom, but they speak a different language" (II, 17). But Strabo is more affirmative: "I would be inclined to believe that the Adriatic Veneti are a colony of the Oceanic Veneti" (IV, 4). In addition one cannot help but compare the name of the Veneti with that of the Venedotia from northwest Wales, which in Welsh becomes Gwynedd. And as if by chance, it was those Britons, who for the most part came from the northern area of Wales, that emigrated during the sixth and seventh centuries to the ancient land of the Veneti and formed there the Browaroc'h, or the Vannetais. It so happens that Gwynedd was a strong kingdom in permanent contact with Ireland that was seemingly subject to a Gaelic influence that certain Welsh mythological tales would seem to bear out. This doesn't rule out the possiblity of Gwynedd's reciprocal Welsh influence upon the Irish. And in this case, what do we make of the strange warrior fraternity of the Fiana of Ireland whose king is Finn? The name of Finn and that of the Fiana are indeed from the same root as that of Gwynedd, Venedotia, and Veneti. The name of Veneti, which has provided the Italian Venezia, the French Vannes (and through reconstruction Venetes "Veneti"), and the Armorican Breton Gwyned, in fact from the ancient Celtic vindo that has a meaning of "white, handsome blond, sacred, of good race."

As you can see there is some evidence that the Veneti from Gaul could have a connection with the Venetians in Italy and the Venedotia in wales. Still doesn't prove anything but it's interesting to note.

[Rethel]

So, we now know, what is this story really about... :)

https://naekranie.pl/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Wikingowie-4.jpg

[Nyx]

I also wanted to add, like I said there is a connection between the Veneti of Gaul, the Venetians of Italy and Venedotia in Wales, which aren't celts and have a strong seafaring culture. I just found out there is also the Wends which are supposedly ancient Slavs who were living near modern day Germany and the Baltic coast.

The word "Wends" Translates into Latin as Veneti as well. I wonder what this means...


The term "Wends" derived from the Roman-era people called in Latin Veneti, Venedi or Venethi, in Greek Ουενεδαι / Ouenedai. This people was mentioned by Pliny the Elder and Ptolemy as inhabiting the Baltic coast.

[Fractal]

So, we now know, what is this story really about... :)

https://naekranie.pl/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Wikingowie-4.jpg

I thought the Vikings were Scandinavians, and not Poles.

[Ouistreham]

I also wanted to add, like I said there is a connection between the Veneti of Gaul, the Venetians of Italy and Venedotia in Wales, which aren't celts and have a strong seafaring culture. I just found out there is also the Wends which are supposedly ancient Slavs who were living near modern day Germany and the Baltic coast.

The word "Wends" Translates into Latin as Veneti as well. I wonder what this means...

This is purely coincidental.
None of those groups was related in any way to any of the others.

BTW Venice became a formidable sea power but quite late in history. The town was founded by Veneti who took refuge on muddy islands off the coast at the time the Roman Empire was crumbling down and Hunnic and Germanic invasions ware raging.


"Here is how Caesar describes the [Gallic] Veneti: "This people is very much the strongest on the maritime coast. It is they who possess the greatest number of ships, and its fleet engages in trade with the Isle of Britain. It is superior to others by its navigational science and experience. Finally, as the sea is violent and liberally beats upon a coast where there are but few ports, of which they are the masters, almost all those who normally sail in these waters are their serviteurs".

These Veneti, who occupied the southern coast of Armorica, almost the entire expanse between the Vilaine and the Odet, were the masters of navigation in the Atlantic, but also in the Channel since they had commercial ties with the Isle of Britain. In any event, this contradicts the earlier assertion that the Celts were land bound. Or else, it implies that the Celts were amenable to the fact that the Veneti occupied themselves with navigation in their stead. If this is the case, it would further support the contention that the Veneti were not Celts, but a Celtically influenced nonindigenous population.

The Veneti (of present-day Brittany) occupied a strategic location on the Tin Route that connected English Cornwall to the Mediterranean area. The paramount importance of tin as a component of bronze alloys made it a very sought after resource in the Bronze Age. Most probably they were taught shipbuilding and sailing by (non-IE) Phoenicians, and then Greek merchants. (This very ancient Mediterranean connection could perhaps offer a explanation for the more than normal Med presence in Brittany, Cornwall and Wales)

http://www.geocities.ws/lanecki_fr/ariolica/etain.gif

Those Veneti were and are still Celts. However, the Vannetais (as they are called nowadays) have always stood apart from other tribes in present day Western France. Their Breton dialect is completely different from the others. Some scholars have speculated that the Vannetais (in department Morbihan) could be actually more Gallic than insular Celts, other suppose it might be the other way around.

Anyway, the Celts have never been, by and large, great navigators in ancient times, less so than their geographical locations would suggest. The Germanics have been a lot more convincing in that department. Very early, as soon as the Saxons developed their techniques to build longboats, they were challenging Roman fleets along the Atlantic, Channel anhd North Sea coasts, thus predating the Vikings by a few centuries.

[cosmoo]

Alas, there is no much doubt that IE invasions and conquests were primarily made by horse riding warriors
A little remark- they didn't actually ride them for most of the time, they mostly used them to draw wagons and chariots. They also used chariots in battle. Riding itself was used most commonly while maintaining herds of livestock.
By the way, evidence of horses being ridden can be seen in cave art of Palaeolithic/Mesolithic Europe, although most of archaeological evidence suggests that they never domesticated horses. I wonder if perhaps it was sporadic taming rather than total domestication.
Supposed Grotte de La Marche cave drawing:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-AeKxetXUtwk/TXLxXUVUHEI/AAAAAAAAAqA/mf0azPHik9o/s1600/rider002.jpg

So, we now know, what is this story really about... :)

https://naekranie.pl/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Wikingowie-4.jpg

Actually, IE learned craft of boat building from pre-IE inhabitants of the north. After learning it, ships seem to have supplanted horses in some areas.

The worshippers of Odin and Frey were especially interested in the horse; horse sacrifices were made to these gods, and to Frey was dedicated the cult of the embalmed horse's penis. In Norway the horse was replaced to a certain extent as a funeral object by the ship; and the ships were made by the carls, who had learned their craft from their Megalithic predecessors and ancestors. With the introduction of iron, ship-building flourished, and the Viking was nothing more nor less than a sea-going central European Nordic, who had exchanged his horse for a steed suited to a new environment, with the coöperation of a vigorous body of indigenous craftsmen and warriors, into whose racial body his own group was soon blended.

[Peterski]

A little remark - they didn't actually ride them for most of the time

Actually there is evidence that they frequently rode horses, at least this Bell Beaker guy:

I0805, Quedlinburg, Germany (2467-2142 BC)
Y-DNA haplogroup: R1b1a1a2a1a2b-U152

"This 35-45 year-old individual is osteologically and genetically male. The body was buried in NO-SW orientation with the head in the north facing east. Grave goods include three silex arrowheads, a few potsherds, and animal bones. A notable observation from the physical anthropological examination is traits at the acetabulum and the femur head suggesting that the individual frequently rode horses."

[blondbeast]

Apparently the Indo-European language contains many words related to boat/boating sea and lake. Here's a quote from an interesting article:



No.

Germanic words of non ie origin
Here are some Germanic words of non Indo European origin according to Hawkins:

Seafaring

ship Schiff schip skepp navis πλοίο
(ploio) плот (судно, корабль)
(plot (sudno, korabl))
strand (beach) Strand strand strand litus, acta παραλία
(paralia) берег
(bereg)
ebb Ebbe eb ebb decessus, recessus άμπωτις
(ampotis) отлив
(otliv)
steer steuern besturen styra guberno κυβερνώ
(kuberno) управлять
(upravlyat)
sail segeln zeilen segla navigo πλέω
(pleo) плавать
(plavat)
north Norden noorden nord septentriones βορράς
(borras) север
(sever)
south Süden zuiden syd australis, meridies νότος
(notos) юг
(yug)
east Osten oosten öst oriens ανατολή (anatoli) восток
(vostok)
west Westen westen väst occidens δύση
(dysi) запад
(zapad)

[Rethel]

No.

Germanic words of non ie origin
Here are some Germanic words of non Indo European origin according to Hawkins:

Long time ago most of them was debunked.


(ploio) плот (судно, корабль)
(plot (sudno, korabl))

This is good examle how such comparing can
be missleading. These are russian words. Polish
are łódź, statek and okręt. Two slavic languages.
Show me similarites. None? So which are pre-IE :laugh:


north Norden noorden nord septentriones βορράς
(borras) север
(sever) south Süden zuiden syd australis, meridies νότος
(notos) юг
(yug)
east Osten oosten öst oriens ανατολή (anatoli) восток
(vostok)
west Westen westen väst occidens δύση
(dysi) запад
(zapad)


Again: in polish północ, południe, wschód, zachód. It provs nothing...

[Nyx]

This is purely coincidental.
None of those groups was related in any way to any of the others.

BTW Venice became a formidable sea power but quite late in history. The town was founded by Veneti who took refuge on muddy islands off the coast at the time the Roman Empire was crumbling down and Hunnic and Germanic invasions ware raging.



The Veneti (of present-day Brittany) occupied a strategic location on the Tin Route that connected English Cornwall to the Mediterranean area. The paramount importance of tin as a component of bronze alloys made it a very sought after resource in the Bronze Age. Most probably they were taught shipbuilding and sailing by (non-IE) Phoenicians, and then Greek merchants. (This very ancient Mediterranean connection could perhaps offer a explanation for the more than normal Med presence in Brittany, Cornwall and Wales)

http://www.geocities.ws/lanecki_fr/ariolica/etain.gif

Those Veneti were and are still Celts. However, the Vannetais (as they are called nowadays) have always stood apart from other tribes in present day Western France. Their Breton dialect is completely different from the others. Some scholars have speculated that the Vannetais (in department Morbihan) could be actually more Gallic than insular Celts, other suppose it might be the other way around.

Anyway, the Celts have never been, by and large, great navigators in ancient times, less so than their geographical locations would suggest. The Germanics have been a lot more convincing in that department. Very early, as soon as the Saxons developed their techniques to build longboats, they were challenging Roman fleets along the Atlantic, Channel anhd North Sea coasts, thus predating the Vikings by a few centuries.

Interesting thanks. I still find it's a strange coincidence that the word "Veneti" is so common along the coast, but you're probably right.

[Miekka]

Actually there is evidence that they frequently rode horses, at least this Bell Beaker guy:

I0805, Quedlinburg, Germany (2467-2142 BC)
Y-DNA haplogroup: R1b1a1a2a1a2b-U152

"This 35-45 year-old individual is osteologically and genetically male. The body was buried in NO-SW orientation with the head in the north facing east. Grave goods include three silex arrowheads, a few potsherds, and animal bones. A notable observation from the physical anthropological examination is traits at the acetabulum and the femur head suggesting that the individual frequently rode horses."

Quintessentially, you are attempting to persuade your audience that there is evidence that they not only rode horses but frequently rode horses based on...... “at least this (one) Bell Beaker guy”. Excellent logic and analysis, there.


Actually, IE learned craft of boat building from pre-IE inhabitants of the north. After learning it, ships seem to have supplanted horses in some areas.

Don't hold your breath for Rethel to understand or comprehend that or anything else that you wrote.

[blondbeast]

Don't hold your breath for Rethel to understand or comprehend that or anything else that you wrote.

I look forward to him having a heart attack when they find out that his tv hero that he jerks off to every day, Ragnar Lothbrok, was I1. Kusipää.

[Ouistreham]

Interesting thanks. I still find it's a strange coincidence that the word "Veneti" is so common along the coast, but you're probably right.

... and you can add to the list Vineta, a mythical harbour town established on the shores of the Baltic Sea, supposedly destroyed to punish the sins of its dirt rich citizens... Its name was possibly inspired by Venice.

more about it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vineta


No.

Germanic words of non ie origin
Here are some Germanic words of non Indo European origin according to Hawkins:

Seafaring

ship Schiff schip skepp navis πλοίο
(ploio) плот (судно, корабль)
(plot (sudno, korabl))
strand (beach) Strand strand strand litus, acta παραλία
(paralia) берег
(bereg)
ebb Ebbe eb ebb decessus, recessus άμπωτις
(ampotis) отлив
(otliv)
steer steuern besturen styra guberno κυβερνώ
(kuberno) управлять
(upravlyat)
sail segeln zeilen segla navigo πλέω
(pleo) плавать
(plavat)
north Norden noorden nord septentriones βορράς
(borras) север
(sever)
south Süden zuiden syd australis, meridies νότος
(notos) юг
(yug)
east Osten oosten öst oriens ανατολή (anatoli) восток
(vostok)
west Westen westen väst occidens δύση
(dysi) запад
(zapad)

Actually a couple of those words appear to be of IE origin.

Anyway, the early Germanic maritime vocabulary has been utterly authoritative — all of those words, along with countless others, have been passed to French.
On the other hand, there are very few Gaulic or Breton terms I can think of in French seamen's language.

And —back to topic—, the fact that in Europe the sea is predominantly Germanic, although the Germanics were the last ones to settle in Western Europe, shows that, nope, the Indo-Europeans didn't spread by sea.

[Fantomas]

There's no reason to think they couldn't have used both methods. The Veneti in Gaul as an example were very different culturally from the surrounding tribes and didn't see themselves as Celts. Read this excerpt, I think you'll find it interresting. I've highlighted the important part.

"Here is how Caesar describes the Veneti: "This people is very much the strongest on the maritime coast. It is they who possess the greatest number of ships, and its fleet engages in trade with the Isle of Britain. It is superior to others by its navigational science and experience. Finally, as the sea is violent and liberally beats upon a coast where there are but few ports, of which they are the masters, almost all those who normally sail in these waters are their serviteurs".

These Veneti, who occupied the southern coast of Armorica, almost the entire expanse between the Vilaine and the Odet, were the masters of navigation in the Atlantic, but also in the Channel since they had commercial ties with the Isle of Britain. In any event, this contradicts the earlier assertion that the Celts were land bound. Or else, it implies that the Celts were amenable to the fact that the Veneti occupied themselves with navigation in their stead. If this is the case, it would further support the contention that the Veneti were not Celts, but a Celtically influenced nonindigenous population. What complicates this matter is that there were Veneti elsewhere who were by chance, skillful navigators. These are the Veneti of the Adriatic, otherwise known as the Venetians. Regarding them the Greek historian Polybius said, "This ancient nation is hardly distinguishable from the other Gallic peoples by dress and custom, but they speak a different language" (II, 17). But Strabo is more affirmative: "I would be inclined to believe that the Adriatic Veneti are a colony of the Oceanic Veneti" (IV, 4). In addition one cannot help but compare the name of the Veneti with that of the Venedotia from northwest Wales, which in Welsh becomes Gwynedd. And as if by chance, it was those Britons, who for the most part came from the northern area of Wales, that emigrated during the sixth and seventh centuries to the ancient land of the Veneti and formed there the Browaroc'h, or the Vannetais. It so happens that Gwynedd was a strong kingdom in permanent contact with Ireland that was seemingly subject to a Gaelic influence that certain Welsh mythological tales would seem to bear out. This doesn't rule out the possiblity of Gwynedd's reciprocal Welsh influence upon the Irish. And in this case, what do we make of the strange warrior fraternity of the Fiana of Ireland whose king is Finn? The name of Finn and that of the Fiana are indeed from the same root as that of Gwynedd, Venedotia, and Veneti. The name of Veneti, which has provided the Italian Venezia, the French Vannes (and through reconstruction Venetes "Veneti"), and the Armorican Breton Gwyned, in fact from the ancient Celtic vindo that has a meaning of "white, handsome blond, sacred, of good race."

As you can see there is some evidence that the Veneti from Gaul could have a connection with the Venetians in Italy and the Venedotia in wales. Still doesn't prove anything but it's interesting to note.
Absolutely groundless proposition. To claim that Venetians are different folk from another Celts just because they're skilful in sea going navigation?! Actually all Celtic civilization was developed as oriented toward the sea

http://i.imgur.com/SSKmw3a.pnghttp://i.imgur.com/dzrNxVb.jpg

I'm not sure about another IE, but Celtic (proto-Celtic) spreading in Europe and later development of Celtic nations were linked with sea and water routs obviously. Even ancient Celts themselves thought that their origin was linked with ocean

Ammianus Marcellinus.Rerum Gestarum
Liber XV

The Drysidae (Druids) say that a part of the people was in fact indigenous, but that others also poured in from the remote islands and the regions across the Rhine, driven from their homes by continual wars and by the inundation of the stormy sea.

[Ouistreham]

I'm not sure about another IE, but Celtic (proto-Celtic) spreading in Europe and later development of Celtic nations were linked with sea and water routs obviously.
Definitely not, I'm sorry.
The Celts originated from Continental central Europe and spread by land.
Despite they ended up occupying coastal and insular locations, sea-faring played a very minor role in the Celtic expansion.
The Veneti of Armorica were more an exception than the rule.


"The Drysidae (Druids) say that a part of the people was in fact indigenous, but that others also poured in from the remote islands and the regions across the Rhine, driven from their homes by continual wars and by the inundation of the stormy sea.
Then how can you explain that the main forces behind European maritime expansion just originated from those regions around the German Bight, i.e. Holland, Frisia, Lower Saxony, Angeln, South Jutland? Those "remote islands and the regions across the the Rhine" were the craddle of Germanic powerful maritime cultures, but the Celts were unable to take advantage of those locations they previously occupied and had to flee?

There are many expert fishermen on Europe's Celtic fringe, but Celtic cultures contributed barely anything to naval technologies and the history of offshore navigation.

French maritime culture is 100% Norman, 0% Breton.

Iberian maritime tradition owes everything to the Basques and to the Mediterranean world (primarily Genoa), nothing to anything Celtic.

And so on.

[Fantomas]

Definitely not, I'm sorry.
The Celts originated from Continental central Europe and spread by land.
Despite they ended up occupying coastal and insular locations, sea-faring played a very minor role in the Celtic expansion.
The Veneti of Armorica were more an exception than the rule.
Actually, no. All of the ancient sources agree on a fact, that Celts invaded central Europe from west.

Veneti of Armorica were not exception of the rule, you forgot that Roman fleet was also consisted of ships from another Celtic tribes.


Then how can you explain that the main forces behind European maritime expansion just originated from those regions around the German Bight, i.e. Holland, Frisia, Lower Saxony, Angeln, South Jutland? Those "remote islands and the regions across the the Rhine" were the craddle of Germanic powerful maritime cultures,but the Celts were unable to take advantage of those locations they previously occupied and had to flee?
European maritime tratidition originated from Roman provincial tradition (which was Celtic in substance), not from German Bight. Germanic tribes in iron age period ,unlike Celts, were absolutely unskillful in maritime affairs. Even Scandinavians, despite of they used boats, did not know about sails up to the middle ages.
You've interpreted "across the Rhine" incorrectly. That part of Celts that came from "Remote islands" can be only from Brit Isles and "across the Rhine" is just one of their way into central Europe.


There are many expert fishermen on Europe's Celtic fringe, but Celtic cultures contributed barely anything to naval technologies and the history of offshore navigation.

French maritime culture is 100% Norman, 0% Breton.

Iberian maritime tradition owes everything to the Basques and to the Mediterranean world (primarily Genoa), nothing to anything Celtic.

And so on.
We are talking here about ancient maritime, and we know about at least two ancient Celtic sea going traditions, Irish and Gaulic. Also the best and largest Roman trading fleet in Atlantic was of Turdetanian (Celtic related nation). Statement that western Europeans did not know ships at all, until Normans taught them, is interesting and entirely corresponds to the "old good tradition" of Germanic-centrist position among some scientific clerisy of the past, that ancient Germans invented everything in Europe, but hardly corresponds to reality.

[Percivalle]

I also wanted to add, like I said there is a connection between the Veneti of Gaul, the Venetians of Italy and Venedotia in Wales, which aren't celts and have a strong seafaring culture. I just found out there is also the Wends which are supposedly ancient Slavs who were living near modern day Germany and the Baltic coast.

The word "Wends" Translates into Latin as Veneti as well. I wonder what this means...

It's probably a common IE root.

[Ouistreham]

"I also wanted to add, like I said there is a connection between the Veneti of Gaul, the Venetians of Italy and Venedotia in Wales, which aren't celts and have a strong seafaring culture. I just found out there is also the Wends which are supposedly ancient Slavs who were living near modern day Germany and the Baltic coast.

The word "Wends" Translates into Latin as Veneti as well. I wonder what this means..."

"The Wends" (modern German "Die Wenden", adj. windisch) was the generic naming given by ancient Germanics to all Balto-Slavic tribes, wherever they were located, and not only on the Baltic shores.

There used to be a famous Austrian town called Windischgraz.
Now it's on the Slovenian side of the border.
Guess what it's called now: Slovenj Gradec !

Basically, windisch meant "Slavic".

[War Chef]

Yep. I think you're onto something. Hittite & Luwian would be easily explained by I-E vikings raiding from across Black Sea. Something like this.

http://i.imgur.com/yZgtLDH.jpg

[Dr. Bambo]

No, by land mostly. Except Greeks and Vikings.

[Nyx]

Actually, even the guy at eupedia seems to agree with me:


Combined with advanced bronze weapons and their sea-based culture, the western branch (R1b) of the Indo-Europeans from the Black Sea shores are excellent candidates for being the mysterious Sea Peoples, who raided the eastern shores of the Mediterranean during the second millennium BCE.

I think that makes sense to me. If you take a look at the weapons of the Sea Peoples (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples), they are very reminiscent of the swords of the ancient Celts in many way:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b6/Medinet_Habu_Ramses_III._Tempel_Nordostwand_Abzeic hnung_01.jpg?__hstc=199074032.a23aa07469484e914d6c 7abafc78663e.1473849022498.1473849022498.147384902 2498.1&__hssc=199074032.1.1473849022498&__hsfp=2348363873


On a side note, the tribe of Dan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribe_of_Dan), one of the twelve tribe of Israel, may have been a group within the Sea People called the "Denyen" who attacked Egypt:


The fact that the Biblical maritime Tribe of Dan was initially located between the Philistines and the Tjekker, has prompted some to suggest that they may originally have been Denyen. Sherden seem to have been settled around Megiddo and in the Jordan Valley, and Weshwesh (Biblical Asher) may have been settled further north.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c2/12_Tribes_of_Israel_Map.svg


Their primary trade characteristic was seafaring, unusual for the Israelite tribes. In the Song of Deborah the tribe is said to have stayed on their ships with their belongings.

If this is true then the Jews who fled Egypt in the Bible were led by indo-europeans and everything pertaining to the tribe of Dan is Indo-European.

"But the Danites had difficulty taking possession of their territory, so they went up and attacked Leshem, took it, put it to the sword and occupied it. They settled in Leshem and NAMED IT DAN after their forefather" (Josh. 19:47).

"Gilead stayed beyond the Jordan. And Dan, why did he linger by the ships? Asher remained on the coast and stayed in his coves." Judges 5:17

[Fantomas]

I think that makes sense to me. If you take a look at the weapons of the Sea Peoples (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples), they are very reminiscent of the swords of the ancient Celts in many way:


There're some circumstantial evidence supporting "Celtic" presence in pre-historical time in the Mediterranean like names of Brettii, Temesa, Morgantium:

Strabo.VI

3.Beyond Thurii lies also the country that is called Tauriana. The Leucani are Samnite in race, but upon mastering the Poseidoniatae and their allies in war they took possession of their cities. At all other times, it is true, their government was democratic, but in times of war they were wont to choose a king from those who held magisterial offices. But now they are Romans.

4.The seaboard that comes next after Leucania, as far as the Sicilian Strait and for a distance of thirteen hundred and fifty stadia, is occupied by the Brettii.

But the Brettii are situated beyond the Leucani; they live on a peninsula, but this peninsula includes another peninsula which has the isthmus that extends from Scylletium to the Hipponiate Gulf. The name of the tribe was given to it by the Leucani, for the Leucani call all revolters "brettii." The Brettii revolted, so it is said (at first they merely tended flocks for the Leucani, and then, by reason of the indulgence of their masters, began to act as free men), at the time when Dio made his expedition against Dionysius and aroused all peoples against all others. So much, then, for my general description of the Leucani and the Brettii.

5.The next city after Laüs belongs to Brettium, and is named Temesa, though the men of to‑day call it Tempsa; it was founded by the Ausones, but later on was settled also by the Aetolians under the leadership of Thoas; but the Aetolians were ejected by the Brettii, and then the Brettii were crushed by Hannibal and by the Romans.

People say that Homer has in mind this Temesa, not the Tamassus in Cyprus (the name is spelled both ways), when he says "to Temesa, in quest of copper.

And in fact copper mines are to be seen in the neighbourhood, although now they have been abandoned. Near Temesa is Terina, which Hannibal destroyed, because he was unable to guard it, at the time when he had taken refuge in Brettium itself. Then comes Consentia, the metropolis of the Brettii; and a little above this city is Pandosia, a strong fortress, near which Alexander the Molossian was killed. He, too, was deceived by the oracle

6.According to Antiochus, the Siceli and Morgetes had in early times inhabited the whole of this region, but later on, being ejected by the Oenotrians, had crossed over into Sicily. According to some, Morgantium also took its name from the Morgetes of Rhegium.

Also there're some similar to IE (Celtic) tribe names on ancient Sardinia like: Celsitani, Cunusitani, Galillesi and Lugudonensi, just like names of some Sea Peoples: Deneyen-Irish Danaans, Ekwesh- Equaesi from Atlantic Iberia, Lukka-name of Celtic god Lugh was the root for many Celtic placenames tribe and some tribes, Weshesh- Osismii the Gallic tribe or Uxisame island (Ushant today), Turshu-Tersites ot Turdetans not Celtic but maybe related to Celts

Strabo.III

Along with the happy lot of their country, the qualities of both gentleness and civility have come to the Turdetanians; and to the Celtic peoples, too, on account of their being neighbours to the Turdetanians, as Polybius has said, or else on account of their kinship; but less so the Celtic peoples, because for the most part they live in mere villages.

I.5

We must still add, he says, the bulge of Europe outside the Pillars, which lies over against Iberia and leans westward, reaching not less than three thousand stadia; we must also add all the capes, but in particular that of the Ostimians, called Cabaeum, and the islands about it — the outermost of which, Uxisame, Pytheas says, is a three days' sail distant. And after mentioning these last places, though all of them in their stretch add nothing to the length of the inhabited world, he has added the regions in the neighbourhood of the capes, of the Ostimians, of Uxisame, and of all the islands he names. (In fact, these places all lie towards the north and belong to Celtica, not to Iberia — or rather they are inventions of Pytheas.) And he adds to the aforesaid length-distances still other stadia, namely, two thousand on the west, and two thousand on the east, in order to keep the breadth from being more than half the length.

[Linebacker]

I hate it when the word "spread" is used in such themes.

Diseases and rodents spread,as well as legs.

People Migrate.

[Nyx]

There're some circumstantial evidence supporting "Celtic" presence in pre-historical time in the Mediterranean like names of Brettii, Temesa, Morgantium:

Strabo.VI

3.Beyond Thurii lies also the country that is called Tauriana. The Leucani are Samnite in race, but upon mastering the Poseidoniatae and their allies in war they took possession of their cities. At all other times, it is true, their government was democratic, but in times of war they were wont to choose a king from those who held magisterial offices. But now they are Romans.

4.The seaboard that comes next after Leucania, as far as the Sicilian Strait and for a distance of thirteen hundred and fifty stadia, is occupied by the Brettii.

But the Brettii are situated beyond the Leucani; they live on a peninsula, but this peninsula includes another peninsula which has the isthmus that extends from Scylletium to the Hipponiate Gulf. The name of the tribe was given to it by the Leucani, for the Leucani call all revolters "brettii." The Brettii revolted, so it is said (at first they merely tended flocks for the Leucani, and then, by reason of the indulgence of their masters, began to act as free men), at the time when Dio made his expedition against Dionysius and aroused all peoples against all others. So much, then, for my general description of the Leucani and the Brettii.

5.The next city after Laüs belongs to Brettium, and is named Temesa, though the men of to‑day call it Tempsa; it was founded by the Ausones, but later on was settled also by the Aetolians under the leadership of Thoas; but the Aetolians were ejected by the Brettii, and then the Brettii were crushed by Hannibal and by the Romans.

People say that Homer has in mind this Temesa, not the Tamassus in Cyprus (the name is spelled both ways), when he says "to Temesa, in quest of copper.

And in fact copper mines are to be seen in the neighbourhood, although now they have been abandoned. Near Temesa is Terina, which Hannibal destroyed, because he was unable to guard it, at the time when he had taken refuge in Brettium itself. Then comes Consentia, the metropolis of the Brettii; and a little above this city is Pandosia, a strong fortress, near which Alexander the Molossian was killed. He, too, was deceived by the oracle

6.According to Antiochus, the Siceli and Morgetes had in early times inhabited the whole of this region, but later on, being ejected by the Oenotrians, had crossed over into Sicily. According to some, Morgantium also took its name from the Morgetes of Rhegium.

Also there're some similar to IE (Celtic) tribe names on ancient Sardinia like: Celsitani, Cunusitani, Galillesi and Lugudonensi, just like names of some Sea Peoples: Deneyen-Irish Danaans, Ekwesh- Equaesi from Atlantic Iberia, Lukka-name of Celtic god Lugh was the root for many Celtic placenames tribe and some tribes, Weshesh- Osismii the Gallic tribe or Uxisame island (Ushant today), Turshu-Tersites ot Turdetans not Celtic but maybe related to Celts

Strabo.III

Along with the happy lot of their country, the qualities of both gentleness and civility have come to the Turdetanians; and to the Celtic peoples, too, on account of their being neighbours to the Turdetanians, as Polybius has said, or else on account of their kinship; but less so the Celtic peoples, because for the most part they live in mere villages.

I.5

We must still add, he says, the bulge of Europe outside the Pillars, which lies over against Iberia and leans westward, reaching not less than three thousand stadia; we must also add all the capes, but in particular that of the Ostimians, called Cabaeum, and the islands about it — the outermost of which, Uxisame, Pytheas says, is a three days' sail distant. And after mentioning these last places, though all of them in their stretch add nothing to the length of the inhabited world, he has added the regions in the neighbourhood of the capes, of the Ostimians, of Uxisame, and of all the islands he names. (In fact, these places all lie towards the north and belong to Celtica, not to Iberia — or rather they are inventions of Pytheas.) And he adds to the aforesaid length-distances still other stadia, namely, two thousand on the west, and two thousand on the east, in order to keep the breadth from being more than half the length.

That was very interesting, it does seem like wherever the IE went they named their cities with the name of each clan's respective patriarch. I think "Dan" could have been one of those.

"There is no grander theme upon the scrolls of history than the story of this struggle of the Anglo-Saxons westward. The very streams of Europe mark their resting places, and in the root of nearly all their ancient names (Dan, or Don) recall the sacred stream Jor-dan river of rest-- from whose hands, so far away, as exiles, they set out. It was either the little colony of Dan, obeying its tribal proclivity for naming everything it cap- turied (Jud. 18:1-29) after their father, or else the mere survival of a word and custom; but, none the less, it serves to trace these wanderers like a trail. Hence the Dan-ube, the Dan-ieper, the Dan-iester, the Dan-au, the Daci and Davi, the Dan, the Don, the U-Don, the Eri-don, and the thousand other dans and dons of ancient and early geography, down to the Danes in Dan-emerke, or 'Dan's last resting place'" (quoted in Allen, Judah's Sceptre and Joseph's Birthright, p. 263-64)."

[Fantomas]

That was very interesting, it does seem like wherever the IE went they named their cities with the name of each clan's respective patriarch. I think "Dan" could have been one of those.

"There is no grander theme upon the scrolls of history than the story of this struggle of the Anglo-Saxons westward. The very streams of Europe mark their resting places, and in the root of nearly all their ancient names (Dan, or Don) recall the sacred stream Jor-dan river of rest-- from whose hands, so far away, as exiles, they set out. It was either the little colony of Dan, obeying its tribal proclivity for naming everything it cap- turied (Jud. 18:1-29) after their father, or else the mere survival of a word and custom; but, none the less, it serves to trace these wanderers like a trail. Hence the Dan-ube, the Dan-ieper, the Dan-iester, the Dan-au, the Daci and Davi, the Dan, the Don, the U-Don, the Eri-don, and the thousand other dans and dons of ancient and early geography, down to the Danes in Dan-emerke, or 'Dan's last resting place'" (quoted in Allen, Judah's Sceptre and Joseph's Birthright, p. 263-64)."
It's not surprising, at least "dun" means settlement or fort in Celtics, and there're tons of the ancient place names in Europe with this either ending or root