New Mycenaean study does suggest large amount of Dorian and later, Slavic in modern Greeks.

[Sikeliot]

The study tried to spin it otherwise, but it does.

If Mycenaean is best modeled by Sicilian, and we assume slightly more Northern input came with the Dorians, and we can typically model modern Greeks as 2/3 to 3/4 Sicilian and the rest NE European, then it means that up to 25-33% of modern mainland Greeks' DNA predates that of the Mycenaeans.

So while Sicilian can be seen as "proto-Greek" (even though I believe ancient Sicilians were more Levantine than today, it is MODERN Sicilians who are Mycenaean-like), modern Greeks shift much north of this.

[Kamal900]

There's a genetic study on the ancient Mycenaean Greeks? 2017 really is indeed a very good year for genetics on the ancient peoples like the ancient Egyptians, Canaanites and so on.

[Peterski]

But they sampled mostly Mycenaean peasants. I suppose that they had less of Steppe ancestry than Mycenaean aristocracy. Just like today Bolivian peasants have less of Iberian ancestry than Bolivian landowners (aristocracy), who are Mestizos:


That Peloponnesian elite sample was probably like Evo Morales in Bolivia - one of first important indigenous figures.

On the other hand that elite Cretan woman was like Bolivian Mestizos - who are landowners / aristocracy there:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wj6yez66ws

"What are you doing here you Pelasgian?! You smell like a sheep."

^^^

One aristocratic sample from Crete has 1/3 of Steppe ancestry, much more than modern Cretans (!):


Elite Cretan is 1/3 Steppe, that's a lot (I guess she was of aristocratic blood - remember that not all members of the elite had to be of aristocratic blood, because SOCIAL MOBILITY is a thing - "Pelasgians" with not much of IE ancestry could become elite thanks to their merits):

http://i.imgur.com/hgGmGHl.png

Edit:

Greek Dilemma: :laugh:

http://i.imgur.com/z8rsUEB.png

[Kamal900]

But they sampled mostly Mycenaean peasants. I suppose that they had less of Steppe ancestry than Mycenaean aristocracy.

Just like today Bolivian peasants have less of Iberian ancestry than Bolivian landowners (aristocracy), who are Mestizos:

Which suggests that the Indo-European migrants of Greece were largely the ruling elite like the Anatolians.

[Sikeliot]

There's a genetic study on the ancient Mycenaean Greeks? 2017 really is indeed a very good year for genetics on the ancient peoples like the ancient Egyptians, Canaanites and so on.

Yes. Mycenaeans were close to modern Sicilians. This means Sicilians are like "proto-Greeks" and modern Greeks have very much Slavic influence, but as I have said it is important to note, this is MODERN Sicily. Ancient Sicily would have likely had even more Levantine shift than Mycenaeans because Sicilians have some Italian from the mainland, minor Norman, and Doric Greek (and Dorians surely were more Steppe influenced than Mycenaeans).

Minoans were like Sicilians but shifted slightly toward Anatolia Neolithic, best proxied by modern Sardinians. Though one of the ancient Cretan samples was very northward shifting, more than the Mycenaeans and almost as much as modern Greeks.

[Peterski]

Mycenaean is best modeled by Sicilian

Mycenaean PEASANT is best modeled by Sicilian. They were descended from Pelasgians.

Just like today Bolivian peasant is best modeled by Quechua.

However, Bolivian landowner is best modeled by Mestizo.

Probably Mycenaean landowner was also genetically different than Mycenaean peasant.

[Sikeliot]

Mycenaean PEASANT is best modeled by Sicilian.

So basically, Sicilians best proxy the Mycenaeans who would have had the bare minimum of Steppe ancestry.

[Voskos]

But they sampled mostly Mycenaean peasants. I suppose that they had less of Steppe ancestry than Mycenaean aristocracy. Just like today Bolivian peasants have less of Iberian ancestry than Bolivian landowners (aristocracy), who are Mestizos:



^^^

One aristocratic sample from Crete has 1/3 of Steppe ancestry, much more than modern Cretans (!):

See the figures.All the minoans share more drift with modern cretans, sicilians , west turks and greece-balkans rather than with north euros.

[nightrider+]

Which suggests that the Indo-European migrants of Greece were largely the ruling elite like the Anatolians.No, it doesn't. The paper clearly states that Peloponnese Mycenean elite didn't differ genetically from the other burials. Litvin is just coping.

[Sikeliot]

See the figures.All the minoans share more drift with modern cretans, sicilians , west turks and balkans rather than with north euros.

The Minoans are close to Sicilians, but with a shift toward the West Med component (which really is Neolithic Anatolian, but it peaks today in Sardinians and Berbers). Mycenaeans are close to modern Sicilians, which means Greeks with the bare minimum of Indo-European DNA they ever would have had were like Sicily.

But I do think that Greeks who settled Sicily would have, by the time of settlement, had more Indo-European than the Mycenaeans, hence why some parts of Sicily deviate from the average.

[Sikeliot]

No, it doesn't. The paper clearly states that Peloponnese Mycenean elite didn't differ genetically from the other burials. Litvin is just coping.

How are YOU coping knowing how much Slavic DNA you really have?

[Voskos]

The Minoans are close to Sicilians, but with a shift toward the West Med component (which really is Neolithic Anatolian, but it peaks today in Sardinians and Berbers). Mycenaeans are close to modern Sicilians, which means Greeks with the bare minimum of Indo-European DNA they ever would have had were like Sicily.

But I do think that Greeks who settled Sicily would have, by the time of settlement, had more Indo-European than the Mycenaeans, hence why some parts of Sicily deviate from the average.

Im not talking about the pca. See the figure showing shared drift with moderns that nightrider posted in the other thread.

[nightrider+]

Im not talking about the pca. See the figure showing shared drift with moderns that nightrider posted in the other thread.He's desperate. He ignores evidence and contradicts himself in a lame attempt to troll and wind up as usual.

[Sikeliot]

Im not talking about the pca. See the figure showing shared drift with moderns that nightrider posted in the other thread.

I am confused what you mean. It does not appear to me that any of the ancient samples, except one of the Cretans with abnormally high northern affinity, plot like modern mainland Greeks.

Modern Cretans also seem more Caucasian than the Minoans were.

[Peterski]

Peloponnese Mycenean elite didn't differ genetically from the other burials.

This is just one person. You can sample Evo Morales and then claim that the ruling elite of Bolivia is 100% Native. Which is of course not true, because Evo Morales is just one exception.

What about the Cretan elite - how do you explain as much as 30% Steppe?

[nightrider+]

This is just one person. You can sample Evo Morales and then claim that the ruling elite of Bolivia is 100% Native. Which is of course not true, because Evo Morales is just one exception.

What about the Cretan elite - how do you explain as much as 30% Steppe?Yes, it's one male vs one female. But whatever, keep coping.

[Voskos]

I am confused what you mean. It does not appear to me that any of the ancient samples, except one of the Cretans with abnormally high northern affinity, plot like modern mainland Greeks.

Modern Cretans also seem more Caucasian than the Minoans were.

I don't see what your point is though.are you saying that sicilians are the only descendants of ancient greeks?

[Sikeliot]

I don't see what your point is though.are you saying that sicilians are the only descendants of ancient greeks?

No. I think Sicilians have significant Levantine and North African DNA, and the mixture of that balanced out with actual Greek influence, Italic, and even some Norman brings them to an intermediate position close to what Mycenaeans were.

But I definitely do not think modern mainland Greeks proxy well the Mycenaeans, not at all.

[Voskos]

No. I think Sicilians have significant Levantine and North African DNA, and the mixture of that balanced out with actual Greek influence, Italic, and even some Norman brings them to an intermediate position close to what Mycenaeans were.

But I definitely do not think modern mainland Greeks proxy well the Mycenaeans, not at all.

The fst figure does show sicilians, albanians,west turks, mainland greeks , tuscans and cretans as closest to the ancients.

[Sikeliot]

The fst figure does show sicilians, albanians,west turks, mainland greeks , tuscans and cretans as closest to the ancients.

Maybe. But my point is, Sicilians and Cretans back in the era of those Mycenaean samples might have been more outlying than they are today.

[Voskos]

Maybe. But my point is, Sicilians and Cretans back in the era of those Mycenaean samples might have been more outlying than they are today.

Yes my first impression is that their neolithic was extremely high.

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Seems like people want to be close to ancient greek.

[Sikeliot]

Yes my first impression is that their neolithic was extremely high.

Yes. What is interesting is Minoans were more Sardinian-like than modern Cretans and less CHG.

[Peterski]

How are YOU coping knowing how much Slavic DNA you really have?

Greek Dilemma: :laugh:

http://i.imgur.com/z8rsUEB.png

[Sikeliot]

Greek Dilemma: :laugh:

http://i.imgur.com/z8rsUEB.png

LOL omg. Either way what is clear is, if Mycenaeans were best proxied by Sicilians (whether this means Sicilians are really full Mycenaean or whether they are a mixture of Greek, Levantine, and Italic that average that way, and I go with the latter), then Greeks DO have significant Slavic influence and it cannot be wiped away so easily.

Also note that Lazaridis' plot used originally Trapani and Ragusa for Sicily, and these are the northward shifting Sicilians. So those are the Mycenaean like ones. People in Messina, Agrigento, Palermo would be less Steppe.

[Voskos]

Greek Dilemma: :laugh:

http://i.imgur.com/z8rsUEB.png

I dont see why you have to troll to make a point. Steppe admixture is sort of irrelevant when even gultekin is more mycenean than your average northeast euro.

[Sikeliot]

I dont see why you have to troll to make a point. Steppe admixture is sort of irrelevant when even gultekin is more mycenean than your average northeast euro.

Mycenaeans were not significantly NE Euro (hence why they end up near Sicily). Modern day Greeks certainly have non-negligible amounts though, which make up the balance of their ancestry.

In your case, Crete seems slightly CHG shifted compared to Minoans and less Sardinian like, but clearly some ancient Cretans did have large Steppe components.

[Voskos]

Mycenaeans were not significantly NE Euro (hence why they end up near Sicily). Modern day Greeks certainly have non-negligible amounts though, which make up the balance of their ancestry.

In your case, Crete seems slightly CHG shifted compared to Minoans and less Sardinian like, but clearly some ancient Cretans did have large Steppe components.

I think the study speaks for itself. J2a peaks in Crete and is generally associated to Greeks, italians and west asians. What else do you need for proof?

[Sikeliot]

I think the study speaks for itself. J2a peaks in Crete and is generally associated to Greeks, italians and west asians. What else do you need for proof?

I am unsure your point. J2a likely ended up in Crete, Italy, etc. in a common wave of migration out of west Asia that hit all the islands.

The point I am making is unrelated: I am suggesting that as Dorians, Thracians, and eventually Slavs settled Greece, Greeks became less Mycenaean and Sicilian-like, and more like their modern selves.

Dodecanese too are seemingly Mycenaean like.

[Voskos]

I am unsure your point. J2a likely ended up in Crete, Italy, etc. in a common wave of migration out of west Asia that hit all the islands.

The point I am making is unrelated: I am suggesting that as Dorians, Thracians, and eventually Slavs settled Greece, Greeks became less Mycenaean and Sicilian-like, and more like their modern selves.

Dodecanese too are seemingly Mycenaean like.

Well you did say that mainland greeks are slavs which is inaccurate.anyway, you are entitled to your opinion

[Sikeliot]

Well you did say that mainland greeks are slavs which is inaccurate.anyway, you are entitled to your opinion

So how do you explain why they're not close to Sicilians or Mycenaeans and shift noticeably northeast (1/4 of the way to modern Russians from them)?

[Voskos]

So how do you explain why they're not close to Sicilians or Mycenaeans and shift noticeably northeast (1/4 of the way to modern Russians from them)?

I shift towards albania compared to sicily.does that make me an albo?

[Sikeliot]

I shift towards albania compared to sicily.does that make me an albo?

No. But Mycenaeans are Greeks' ancestors (Sicilians are not their direct ancestors, they just proxy them) so shifting northeast of Mycenaeans means they have REAL northeastern DNA.

[Dibran]

The study tried to spin it otherwise, but it does.

If Mycenaean is best modeled by Sicilian, and we assume slightly more Northern input came with the Dorians, and we can typically model modern Greeks as 2/3 to 3/4 Sicilian and the rest NE European, then it means that up to 25-33% of modern mainland Greeks' DNA predates that of the Mycenaeans.

So while Sicilian can be seen as "proto-Greek" (even though I believe ancient Sicilians were more Levantine than today, it is MODERN Sicilians who are Mycenaean-like), modern Greeks shift much north of this.

source/link to the study?

[Sikeliot]

Anyway I would say Greeks are 75% or so Mycenaean for sure -- but obviously they do not plot right with them. This needs to be acknowledged.

However the claim Greeks have been entirely replaced is clearly false. Also Sicilians are not full Mycenaeans, the composite of their DNA just comes out averaged there (though obviously they do have Greek and Mycenaean ancestry, too).

[catgeorge]

A Sicilian & A Slav walk into a bar........

[Sikeliot]

A Sicilian & A Slav walk into a bar........

And then they fuck and out pops a Greek.

[catgeorge]

And then they fuck and out pops a Greek.

two males mating can not have babies.

[Sikeliot]

two males mating can not have babies.


Who said they were men?

[Taiguaitiaoghyrmmumin]

Who said they were men?
2 women mating and one got the other pregnant?

[nightrider+]

I am unsure your point. J2a likely ended up in Crete, Italy, etc. in a common wave of migration out of west Asia that hit all the islands.

The point I am making is unrelated: I am suggesting that as Dorians, Thracians, and eventually Slavs settled Greece, Greeks became less Mycenaean and Sicilian-like, and more like their modern selves.

Dodecanese too are seemingly Mycenaean like.Thracians never settled Greece and there's no evidence that Dorians came from anywhere out of Greece.
Don't talk about things you don't know and don't rush into conclusions because you are going to be proven wrong for the 100th time. Should I dig up one of your many posts that claimed modern Greeks are more MENA than the ancients? It's also obvious you haven't even read the study yet. NW Sicilians share more genetic drift with Mycenaeans than do SE ones btw.

[catgeorge]

Sikeliot you are African - why does this concern you so much.

[Queen B]

The study tried to spin it otherwise, but it does.

Surely, we are to believe anthrotards and not scientists. Oh well...

I am unsure your point. J2a likely ended up in Crete, Italy, etc. in a common wave of migration out of west Asia that hit all the islands.
The point I am making is unrelated: I am suggesting that as Dorians, Thracians, and eventually Slavs settled Greece, Greeks became less Mycenaean and Sicilian-like, and more like their modern selves.
Dodecanese too are seemingly Mycenaean like.
You assume that Ancient Greeks were all 1 homogenous group, and this is just stupid, hence you are making those assumptions.

[Lollipop]

We are now waiting for Hellenas to spam his propaganda from his free my-bb website,of anonymous greek nationalist authors, of how greeks are unchanged since ancient Greece times.

[catgeorge]

We are now waiting for Hellenas to spam his propaganda from his free my-bb website,of anonymous greek nationalist authors, of how greeks are unchanged since ancient Greece times.

I dont think Greeks really care about it to be honest. Maybe we already knew is enough - those who want to be make up stories let them... despite having only fantasies backing up their claims.

The more crap that comes out of these anti-Hellene the more these studies come out as a response. I have no interest espousing the known. To me all that matters is this.

Its only for us....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X5umvqiHVFg&t=26s

[nightrider+]

http://i.imgur.com/WK6QnI2.png

[nightrider+]

Minoans were lighter than Mycenaeans.

http://i.imgur.com/iuhTx2B.png

[Peterski]

Minoans were lighter than Mycenaeans.

One Minoan was black-haired, while no Mycenaean was black-haired.

[nightrider+]

One Minoan was black-haired, while no Mycenaean was black-haired.

And one was possibly blond haired. On average they were obviously lighter in both hair and eye color.

[Peterski]

And one was possibly blond haired. On average they were obviously lighter in both hair and eye color.

Mycenaeans = Minoans + some EHG ancestry. And EHG were light. So why would Mycenaeans be darker than Minoans?

[nightrider+]

Mycenaeans = Minoans + some EHG ancestry. And EHG were light. So why would Mycenaeans be darker than Minoans?

Because that's what the data says? Because maybe Minoans liked lighter hair and selected it? Maybe because they both might have had Eastern origins and the pre-Minoan population of Crete was lighter? Who knows? It's a fact though.

[Peterski]

Because that's what the data says?

No it doesn't. One Minoan is even darker than all of Mycenaeans. And 3 people is by no means a representative sample.

I guess they were about the same in pigmentation.

But with a sample size of 100 Minoans and 100 Mycenaeans, there would be more light individuals among the latter IMO.

[nightrider+]

No it doesn't. One Minoan is even darker than all of Mycenaeans. And 3 people is by no means a representative sample.

I guess they were about the same in pigmentation.

But with a sample size of 100 Minoans and 100 Mycenaeans, there would be more light individuals among the latter IMO.

Yes, in your opinion, which is based on barely anything other than wishful thinking.

[Sikeliot]

We are now waiting for Hellenas to spam his propaganda from his free my-bb website,of anonymous greek nationalist authors, of how greeks are unchanged since ancient Greece times.

He can say it but it would not be true. If we model Mycenaean as modern Sicilians (though I maintain ancient Sicilians were more Levant shifted than we are now), modern mainland Greeks can be as much as 1/3 NE European shifted compared to Sicily.

Even Cretans have more CHG (Caucasus/Iran) type ancestry than the Minoans did. No one is unchanged.

[brennus dux gallorum]

I think post-dorian steppe admixture in Greece is like 3%-23%, mostly Slavic 1-15/20% considering studies I have seen, and the rest scythian, germanic etc

[Sikeliot]

I think post-dorian steppe admixture in Greece is like 3%-23%, mostly Slavic 1-15/20% considering studies I have seen, and the rest scythian, germanic etc

Yes.

And do you agree with my thought that ancient Sicilians were more Levant shifted than modern Sicilians/Mycenaeans, and our Italic and Norman pushed us to where we are now?

[brennus dux gallorum]

Yes.

And do you agree with my thought that ancient Sicilians were more Levant shifted than modern Sicilians/Mycenaeans, and our Italic and Norman pushed us to where we are now?

Maybe yes for italics, but I think that at least Normans affected mostly or only the aristocracy in the urban centres, not that much the rural majority, the way it happened here with Frankish, venetians or bavarians in the modern Greek Kingdom

[Dick]

Ancient greeks were nordic afterall

[Freeroostah]

Sikeliot you are African - why does this concern you so much.

Because of the inferiority complex that white Americans carry....

[Sikeliot]

Maybe yes for italics, but I think that at least Normans affected mostly or only the aristocracy in the urban centres, not that much the rural majority, the way it happened here with Frankish, venetians or bavarians in the modern Greek Kingdom

See this:
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?217159-nMonte-simulations-for-Sicilians-Greeks-based-on-Mycenaean-DNA

[Lavrentis]

Greek Dilemma: :laugh:

http://i.imgur.com/z8rsUEB.png

Is Polish history so shit that people like you and Rethel try to associate themselves with the ancient Greek elite? I mean, you once opened a post about Slavic looks in ancient Greeks. What is wrong? This Slavist shit is so 19th-20th century. Stick to your country's history.

[Peterski]

Crete_Armenoi could be Dorian, and much more Steppe-shifted:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?217238-Mycenaean-sample-Gedmatch-(c-1600%961100-BC)&p=4556551&viewfull=1#post4556551

Look at K13 (this elite sample gets 1/2 Sardinian + 1/2 Polish).

[brennus dux gallorum]

Greek Dilemma: :laugh:

http://i.imgur.com/z8rsUEB.png

Lol I would press both, maybe partially hellenic (which I can't understand why you call aristocracy) and partially later (Slavic, germanic, skythian etc)

[Sikeliot]

It seems the Atlantic/West Med components in Greeks are native and can go back to Mycenaeans, so that is where the Sardinian and "Celtic' like DNA entered into the picture.

[brennus dux gallorum]

It seems the Atlantic/West Med components in Greeks are native and can go back to Mycenaeans, so that is where the Sardinian and "Celtic' like DNA entered into the picture.

Could we associate this" celtic like"with the fact that Greek language is centum?