nMonte simulations for Sicilians/Greeks based on Mycenaean DNA.

[Sikeliot]

1. Greeks come up 28% Slavic and the rest Mycenaean
2. Sicilians are a mixture of North Italian like DNA, Levantine, and Mycenaean, with the Levantine higher in the west and the Mycenaean higher in the east.
3. Mainland south Italians have less Mycenaean than the central and east Sicilians, and more Levantine than all Sicilians.


Greek

Mycenaean:I9041 46.7
Ukrainian_East 27.9
Mycenaean:I9006 25.4

[1] "distance%=0.2857 / distance=0.002857"

Greek

Mycenaean:I9041 47.0
Mycenaean:I9006 24.9
Belarusian 18.1
Slav_Czech:RISE569 10.0

[1] "distance%=0.1993 / distance=0.001993"

Italian_CentralSicilian

Italian_Bergamo 34.8
Samaritan 31.1
Mycenaean:I9033 24.6
Crete_Armenoi:I9123 9.5

[1] "distance%=0.1678 / distance=0.001678"

Italian_EastSicilian

Italian_Bergamo 35.5
Mycenaean:I9033 33.8
Samaritan 27.4
Crete_Armenoi:I9123 3.3

[1] "distance%=0.2484 / distance=0.002484"

Italian_WestSicilian

Italian_Bergamo 57.4
Samaritan 32.0
Mycenaean:I9033 8.2
Crete_Armenoi:I9123 2.4

[1] "distance%=0.2286 / distance=0.002286"

Italian_South

Italian_Bergamo 46.5
Samaritan 39.1
Mycenaean:I9033 14.4

[brennus dux gallorum]

*Ukrainian, not Slavic. Not disputing that Slavic admixture obviously exists, at least half of this 28% is pre-slavic

[Sikeliot]

*Ukrainian, not Slavic. Not disputing that Slavic admixture obviously exists, at least half of this 28% is pre-slavic


You were right though that Sicily has a large amount of Levantine.

[Dibran]

1. Greeks come up 28% Slavic and the rest Mycenaean
2. Sicilians are a mixture of North Italian like DNA, Levantine, and Mycenaean, with the Levantine higher in the west and the Mycenaean higher in the east.
3. Mainland south Italians have less Mycenaean than the central and east Sicilians, and more Levantine than all Sicilians.


Greek

Mycenaean:I9041 46.7
Ukrainian_East 27.9
Mycenaean:I9006 25.4

[1] "distance%=0.2857 / distance=0.002857"

Greek

Mycenaean:I9041 47.0
Mycenaean:I9006 24.9
Belarusian 18.1
Slav_Czech:RISE569 10.0

[1] "distance%=0.1993 / distance=0.001993"

Italian_CentralSicilian

Italian_Bergamo 34.8
Samaritan 31.1
Mycenaean:I9033 24.6
Crete_Armenoi:I9123 9.5

[1] "distance%=0.1678 / distance=0.001678"

Italian_EastSicilian

Italian_Bergamo 35.5
Mycenaean:I9033 33.8
Samaritan 27.4
Crete_Armenoi:I9123 3.3

[1] "distance%=0.2484 / distance=0.002484"

Italian_WestSicilian

Italian_Bergamo 57.4
Samaritan 32.0
Mycenaean:I9033 8.2
Crete_Armenoi:I9123 2.4

[1] "distance%=0.2286 / distance=0.002286"

Italian_South

Italian_Bergamo 46.5
Samaritan 39.1
Mycenaean:I9033 14.4

Can you run this with My results to see what it looks like? what would you need?

[Coolguy1]

Its dishonest to say that all of the 28% is Slavic, when the Dorian age Cretan sample clusters very closely to modern mainland Greek populations. It may just be a model, but it should be specified that not all of it is derived from Slavic ancestry.

[Sikeliot]

Its dishonest to say that all of the 28% is Slavic, when the Dorian age Cretan sample clusters very closely to modern mainland Greek populations. It may just be a model, but it should be specified that not all of it is derived from Slavic ancestry.


It's northeast Euro but I shouldn't have said Slavic. What do you make of the Sicilians?

[Coolguy1]

It's northeast Euro but I shouldn't have said Slavic. What do you make of the Sicilians?

I notice that the eastern Sicilians come up as more Mycenean than the western Sicilians, which makes sense to me, they also have a large amount of Levantine. What program is this based on?

[Coolguy1]

Sikeliot, what is your take on the Dorian age Cretan sample?

[Sikeliot]

Sikeliot, what is your take on the Dorian age Cretan sample?


I do not know but it is very northeast shifted and north of the Sicilians by a noticeable amount. I don't know why.

What do you think explains West Sicily cluster more Levantine and not much Greek?

[Coolguy1]

I do not know but it is very northeast shifted and north of the Sicilians by a noticeable amount. I don't know why.

What do you think explains West Sicily cluster more Levantine and not much Greek?

The sample post-dates both Minoan and Mycenean periods. I think it is a Dorian sample that has not mixed with the Minoan descended native population yet.

As for Sicily, I guess it's just logic that the eastern half would have more Greek influence. Maybe the west has more Carthaginian influence given its proximity to Northern Africa.

[Coolguy1]

I do not know but it is very northeast shifted and north of the Sicilians by a noticeable amount. I don't know why.

What do you think explains West Sicily cluster more Levantine and not much Greek?

Also, what do you think of Pontian Turks (Islamized Greek Pontians) deriving 1/3 of their ancestry from a Mycenaean source?

[1] "distance%=0.5051 / distance=0.005051"

Turkish_Trabzon

Armenia_EBA:I1635 66.65
Mycenaean:I9033 21.25
Mycenaean:I9006 11.05
Armenia_EBA:I1633 1.05

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?11538-Genetic-origins-of-the-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans/page30

Seems to pop that Hellenized Caucasian theory. Pontians do have Greek ancestry.

[Sikeliot]

Seems to pop that Hellenized Caucasian theory. Pontians do have Greek ancestry.

Well they do, but a large part of their ancestry is in fact native Caucasian. 2/3 in fact.

[Sikeliot]

As for Sicily, I guess it's just logic that the eastern half would have more Greek influence. Maybe the west has more Carthaginian influence given its proximity to Northern Africa.

My guess is the Samaritan type DNA is higher in the western Sicily sample is because of Phoenicians. Though it is worth noting the sample there is from Trapani, which has less Levantine ancestry than Agrigento and Palermo do, so it really is higher for many areas than that sample says.

[blondbeast]

*Ukrainian, not Slavic. Not disputing that Slavic admixture obviously exists, at least half of this 28% is pre-slavic

Dear Brown subhuman,

During WW 2, one of the Scottish Highlander officers asked a soldier play the bagpipes during the Normandy invasion, as they were going ashore, while being shot at by the Germans. He at first objected, saying that it was against the British Army rules. The officer said in so many word that we are Scots, we don' t need to follow their rules. The Germans later said they didn't shoot the guy as they thought he must be crazy. look it up yourself...if you doubt the story...easy to find.

[Coolguy1]

Well they do, but a large part of their ancestry is in fact native Caucasian. 2/3 in fact.

Yes, but it would be a lie to call them as just a Hellenized Caucasian people, they do in fact have Greek ancestry, even more so than western Sicilians apparently lol.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Dear Brown subhuman,

During WW 2, one of the Scottish Highlander officers asked a soldier play the bagpipes during the Normandy invasion, as they were going ashore, while being shot at by the Germans. He at first objected, saying that it was against the British Army rules. The officer said in so many word that we are Scots, we don' t need to follow their rules. The Germans later said they didn't shoot the guy as they thought he must be crazy. look it up yourself...if you doubt the story...easy to find.

So, you are that guy that until yesterday you were Russian?

Seriously, how has a professional troll like you survived here for 5 years? :D

[Sikeliot]

Yes, but it would be a lie to call them as just a Hellenized Caucasian people, they do in fact have Greek ancestry, even more so than western Sicilians apparently lol.

Western Sicilians may as well be like Ashkenazim because it seems they formed through similar admixture events (Italic and Levantine). Samaritans are close to ancestral Jews and may also proxy Phoenicians well too.

Central Sicily was at the crossroads of the Greek and the Levantine influenced parts so they have high of both.

[Iloko]

Is there a tutorial for how to run nMonte?

[pmv74]

I'm 1/4 Sicilian and the rest from other parts of southern Italy. My Sicilian side was from the town of enna in the center of Sicily. I would say I have a lot of Levantine in my genetics, possibly some Phoenician as well. My gedmatch eurogenes comes up 29-30% East Mediterranean which probably backs that up as well. Not sure how much of that would be greek though


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ADonkeyBrain]

Interesting experiment and results, I'm sure it's not the whole story but it does show some reasonable things, Greeks as locals with some additional Northeast European (and yeah I'm sure a lot of that is Slavic even considering the Armenoi higher-steppe sample and I think the non-mainland samples will show a bit more 'Caucasian' = post-Bronze Age Anatolian), Sicilians as a mix of locals, Greeks and Levant. Greek influence being always greater in East Sicily and the Phoenicians directly settling West Sicily is my take for the time being but we'll need to see what Sicily looked like in the Bronze Age in the first place. Maybe the Levant was there before the 'Greek' even.

[Peterski]

Crete_Armenoi could be Dorian, and much more Steppe-shifted:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?217238-Mycenaean-sample-Gedmatch-(c-1600%961100-BC)&p=4556551&viewfull=1#post4556551

Look at K13 (this elite sample gets 1/2 Sardinian + 1/2 Polish).

[Sikeliot]

Interesting experiment and results, I'm sure it's not the whole story but it does show some reasonable things, Greeks as locals with some additional Northeast European (and yeah I'm sure a lot of that is Slavic even considering the Armenoi higher-steppe sample and I think the non-mainland samples will show a bit more 'Caucasian' = post-Bronze Age Anatolian), Sicilians as a mix of locals, Greeks and Levant. Greek influence being always greater in East Sicily and the Phoenicians directly settling West Sicily is my take for the time being but we'll need to see what Sicily looked like in the Bronze Age in the first place. Maybe the Levant was there before the 'Greek' even.

When you see Mycenaeans on GEDmatch they shift toward Sardinia, and are less Levantine than modern Sicilians and Cretans. This implies to me a later, intrusive Levantine element is responsible for the plotting of modern day Sicilians, and it is likely from Phoenicians, Carthaginians, and Arabs. Since Mycenaeans didn't have it, then it shows it is not a native element to Southeastern Europe.

[ADonkeyBrain]

When you see Mycenaeans on GEDmatch they shift toward Sardinia, and are less Levantine than modern Sicilians and Cretans. This implies to me a later, intrusive Levantine element is responsible for the plotting of modern day Sicilians, and it is likely from Phoenicians, Carthaginians, and Arabs. Since Mycenaeans didn't have it, then it shows it is not a native element to Southeastern Europe.

Did you read the paper and see what seems to have roughly happened? The Minoans look a lot like a Neolithic + Bronze Age Anatolian population and the Mycenaeans like a Minoan one with extra steppe. Compared to the Myc samples, contemporary Greeks seem to be a bit more post-Neolithic Anatolian and much more steppe/northeast European, both of which seem to have lowered the Neolithic affinity (your West Med/Atlanto-Med whatever components). Sicilians seem a lot more Levantine and less Neolithic but we obviously don't know what Bronze Age Sicily was like in the first place like I wrote, maybe some expansions from the Levant affected it back then already. All this except the last one are addressed in the paper already.

Stop going so wild all over the place and read the thing. :)

[Sikeliot]

Did you read the paper and see what seems to have roughly happened? The Minoans look a lot like a Neolithic + Bronze Age Anatolian population and the Mycenaeans like a Minoan one with extra steppe. Compared to the Myc samples, contemporary Greeks seem to be a bit more post-Neolithic Anatolian and much more steppe/northeast European, both of which seem to have lowered the Neolithic affinity (your West Med/Atlanto-Med whatever components). Sicilians seem a lot more Levantine and less Neolithic but we obviously don't know what Bronze Age Sicily was like in the first place like I wrote, maybe some expansions from the Levant affected it back then already. All this except the last one are addressed in the paper already.

Stop going so wild all over the place and read the thing. :)

I did read it. I felt like they simplified it too much without going into depth about the modern day implications which is more what I care about :)

Minoans should be even more "Sardinian" like than Mycenaeans it seems. Then again Sardinians or the "West Med" component may peak there now, but it is really a snapshot of Neolithic Anatolia, so maybe calling it West Med (which you didn't do, but I am just putting it in context) is a misnomer.

[ADonkeyBrain]

I did read it. I felt like they simplified it too much without going into depth about the modern day implications which is more what I care about :)

Minoans should be even more "Sardinian" like than Mycenaeans it seems. Then again Sardinians or the "West Med" component may peak there now, but it is really a snapshot of Neolithic Anatolia, so maybe calling it West Med (which you didn't do, but I am just putting it in context) is a misnomer.

As you know, those components are usually named for convenience by where they peak so understandably Neolithic Anatolia (the vast majority of Sardinian ancestry) will be represented to a large degree by "West Med/Atlantic Med" or whatever. And yes the Mycenaeans come out as less Neolithic [deleted something after re-checking the paper] than the Minoans in these since they have more steppe ancestry.

I wouldn't say the paper simplified, they just don't have enough data to come up with further scenaria that don't veer into less substantiated threads like we can on casual anthrofora. In fact, if you caught it in the paper, they couldn't entirely reject the possibility of an intrusion from the East ('Armenia' due to the available Armenian samples of course) bringing Greek rather than from the North, either, though this doesn't seem to have been discussed as much. The latter is more plausible all things considered but it'd probably be weird to come to further conclusions than the data allow in a paper. And running those samples over and over again in various calculators that often give very different results is barely more informative (and sometimes misleading) to be honest. With all respect, I haven't you seen you glean any more info that wasn't already available in the paper for example. And quite a few people by now have referred to the low-coverage apparently 14th century Armenoi woman (including you from what I saw) in a 14th-12th century necropolis as a Dorian because of its perhaps elevated steppe, as if the paper didn't mention any details on the individual.

Relax until the next papers covering Italy and the Balkans better, temporally and spatially, come out. In fact this paper already ties well to the previous Balkan one that showed an increase on average of steppe and Caucasus and a decrease in Neolithic since ancient times (though the Minoans and Myceneans already show a great degree of the 'Caucasus' which I wasn't surprised by since the Bronze Age Aegean had some ties to Anatolia).

As for modern-day implications, they wrote this which covers the topic in the only way those data allow without going into all the side discussions:


We estimated the fixation index, FST, of Bronze Age populations with present-day West Eurasians, finding that Mycenaeans were least differentiated from populations from Greece, Cyprus, Albania, and Italy (Fig. 2), part of a general pattern in which Bronze Age populations broadly resembled present-day inhabitants from the same region (Extended Data Fig. 7). Modern Greeks occupy the intermediate space of the PCA along principal component 1 (Fig. 1b) between ancient European and Near Eastern populations, such as those of the Bronze Age. They are not, however, identical to Bronze Age populations, as they are above them along principal component 2 (Fig. 1b). This is because Neolithic farmers shared fewer alleles with Modern Greeks than with Mycenaeans (Extended Data Fig. 8), consistent with additional later admixture

[Danaan]

1. Greeks come up 28% Slavic and the rest Mycenaean
2. Sicilians are a mixture of North Italian like DNA, Levantine, and Mycenaean, with the Levantine higher in the west and the Mycenaean higher in the east.
3. Mainland south Italians have less Mycenaean than the central and east Sicilians, and more Levantine than all Sicilians.


Greek

Mycenaean:I9041 46.7
Ukrainian_East 27.9
Mycenaean:I9006 25.4

[1] "distance%=0.2857 / distance=0.002857"

Greek

Mycenaean:I9041 47.0
Mycenaean:I9006 24.9
Belarusian 18.1
Slav_Czech:RISE569 10.0

[1] "distance%=0.1993 / distance=0.001993"

Italian_CentralSicilian

Italian_Bergamo 34.8
Samaritan 31.1
Mycenaean:I9033 24.6
Crete_Armenoi:I9123 9.5

[1] "distance%=0.1678 / distance=0.001678"

Italian_EastSicilian

Italian_Bergamo 35.5
Mycenaean:I9033 33.8
Samaritan 27.4
Crete_Armenoi:I9123 3.3

[1] "distance%=0.2484 / distance=0.002484"

Italian_WestSicilian

Italian_Bergamo 57.4
Samaritan 32.0
Mycenaean:I9033 8.2
Crete_Armenoi:I9123 2.4

[1] "distance%=0.2286 / distance=0.002286"

Italian_South

Italian_Bergamo 46.5
Samaritan 39.1
Mycenaean:I9033 14.4

If you did those, try not using Crete_Armenoi (?)