Northern influence in Greeks.

[Lavrentis]

So lately this Forum has a dilemma: is the Northerh influence in Greeks Indo-European or Slavic?

1) Why not from Celts? Celtic invading tribes had even reached Peloponnese at one point.

2) Why don't they claim that is Germanic? For example, northern Greece was overrun by Germanic tribes, at one point they even reached Athens.

3) Anyone who has studied Byzantine history knows that the Byzantines slaughtered and expelled the Slavs who invaded Greece and settled them in Asia Minor other massacres followed, since the Slavs were rebellious and the Byzantines didn't like that.

But in my opinion, northern influence in Greece is a result of Indo-Europeans. I don't think that Celts and Germanics left many genetic traces in Greece, and as I said previously, the Byzantines eventually expelled the invading Slavs.

Discuss.

[Köstebek]

So lately this Forum has a dilemma: is the Northerh influence on Greeks Indo-European or Slavic?

1) Why not from Celts? Celtic tribes had even reached Peloponnese at one point.

2) Why they don't claim that is Germanic? For example, northern Greece was overrun by Germanic tribes at one point they even reached Athens.

3) Anyone who has studied Byzantine history knows that the Byzantiens slaughtered and expelled the Slavs who invaded Greece and settled them in Asia Minor other massacres followed, since the Slavs were rebellious and the Byzantines didn't like that.

But in my opinion, northern influence in Greece is a result of Indo-Europeans. I don't think that Celts and Germans left many genetic traces in Greece, and as I said previously, the Byzantines eventually expelled the invading Slavs.



There was no German or Celtic when they migrated to Crete, MORON. and yes they left genes. Thats why now you are gnetically mix of Anatolian and central european. Its proven with science. Your opinion doesnt matter

[Lavrentis]

There was no German or Celtic when they migrated to Crete, MORON. and yes they left genes. Thats why now you are gnetically mix of Anatolian and central european. Its proven with science. Your opinion doesnt matter

Who said that Celts and Germans migrated to Crete? Or you mean IE? You don't make sense.

[Dibran]

So lately this Forum has a dilemma: is the Northerh influence on Greeks Indo-European or Slavic?

1) Why not from Celts? Celtic invading tribes had even reached Peloponnese at one point.

2) Why don't they claim that is Germanic? For example, northern Greece was overrun by Germanic tribes, at one point they even reached Athens.

3) Anyone who has studied Byzantine history knows that the Byzantines slaughtered and expelled the Slavs who invaded Greece and settled them in Asia Minor other massacres followed, since the Slavs were rebellious and the Byzantines didn't like that.

But in my opinion, northern influence in Greece is a result of Indo-Europeans. I don't think that Celts and Germanics left many genetic traces in Greece, and as I said previously, the Byzantines eventually expelled the invading Slavs.

Discuss.

They only expelled the warring tribes. Theres clear mention of earlier slavic incursions that integrated/assimilated into Byzantine ethnogenesis without conflict. Everyone has a mix of DNA. Accept it.

[Köstebek]

Who said that Celts and Germans migrated to Crete? Or you mean IE? You don't make sense.

Have you ever bother read the last results of Mycenaean dna? Even that is mix with central Euro. And today Greeks 30% more slav-alike mixture than the old results (comparison). Which means more ancient Greeks were closer to Anatolian.

You trying to make Greeks something unrealted from nowhere or something? Do you think they came from Jüpiter?

[Sikeliot]

This is my opinion: I think that it arrived in two primary waves: Dorians, and Slavs. The majority of NE European DNA in the southern parts of Greece is likely to be Dorian, though some Slavic would exist... in northern Greece most of it is likely Slavic. "Atlantic" type DNA clearly existed in Mycenaeans similar to what exists in Sardinia, Iberia, and western Europe overall.

[Lavrentis]

They only expelled the warring tribes. Theres clear mention of earlier slavic incursions that integrated/assimilated into Byzantine ethnogenesis without conflict. Everyone has a mix of DNA. Accept it.

It's the Albanians here who are obsessed with genetic continuity, not me. I don't care about blood. I don't understand why internet Albanians are so obsessed with their genes. It's not like Albanians are genetically blessed Ubermensch, most of you look extremely Balkanic.

Those who were assimilated to the Byzantine ethnogenesis were those in Bulgaria, that's why after Bulgarians formed a kingdom they challenged the Byzantines. You realize that Byzantine doesn't mean Greek? And you realize that incursions in Byzantines territory mean not only in Greece, but in all Byzantine territories, like Serbia and Bulgaria?

[Sikeliot]

Some of the northern DNA is clearly Dorian, because the more Greek parts of Sicily have a slightly elevated Steppe admixture.

[Dibran]

Is there a method to(or perhaps undiscovered) that can distinguish between older Steppe admixture and more recent? If such a method exists, or is discovered to differentiate between ancient Steppe and modern steppe, then it can be laid to rest. I honestly think its anything between ancient and modern steppe introduction Indo and Slavic.

[Dibran]

It's the Albanians here who are obsessed with genetic continuity, not me. I don't care about blood. I don't understand why internet Albanians are so obsessed with their genes. It's not like Albanians are genetically blessed Ubermensch, most of you look extremely Balkanic.

Those who were assimilated to the Byzantine ethnogenesis were those in Bulgaria, that's why after Bulgarians formed a kingdom they challenged the Byzantines. You realize that Byzantine doesn't mean Greek? And you realize that incursions in Byzantines territory mean not only in Greece, but in all Byzantine territories, like Serbia and Bulgaria?

Clearly the obsession is your own since you feel the need to make a point with your thread. You also seriously need to pull our Albanian cocks out of your mouth and just stop bitching. The only Albanians on this post who are have an identity complex are the trolling J2 bros. Even they havent gone far as some of your own kin. I mean most these Albanians on here are fucking preteens and 20 year olds. Yet you have some of your compatriots pushing into their 50s calling themselves pure and everyone else gyspies. If anyone is obsessed with their genetics and need to feel relevant its clearly you.

I am extremely proud of looking Balkan. I am also proud of what genetic input I have that makes me me, be it Albanian, Greek, Italian, Asian w.e the fuck its mixed with. Its because I am not a xenophobic twat like you. Yes, I know exactly that Byzantines were not Greek, and a genetic mixture of different groups.

If you go far back enough, everyones related to some degree. I'm interested in colonizing space with the rest of the human race. I can give two shits what rock or old rotting ruins you think is your birth right. Or any Balkan person thinks for that matter.

If the Balkans were a united federation for mutual benefit, they would thrive and dominate Europe. You are too obsessed with your xenophobia though.

[Lavrentis]

Clearly the obsession is your own since you feel the need to make a point with your thread. You also seriously need to pull our Albanian cocks out of your mouth and just stop bitching. The only Albanians on this post who are have an identity complex are the trolling J2 bros. Even they havent gone far as some of your own kin. I mean most these Albanians on here are fucking preteens and 20 year olds. Yet you have some of your compatriots pushing into their 50s calling themselves pure and everyone else gyspies. If anyone is obsessed with their genetics and need to feel relevant its clearly you.

I am extremely proud of looking Balkan. I am also proud of what genetic input I have that makes me me, be it Albanian, Greek, Italian, Asian w.e the fuck its mixed with. Its because I am not a xenophobic twat like you. Yes, I know exactly that Byzantines were not Greek, and a genetic mixture of different groups.

If you go far back enough, everyones related to some degree. I'm interested in colonizing space with the rest of the human race. I can give two shits what rock or old rotting ruins you think is your birth right. Or any Balkan person thinks for that matter.

If the Balkans were a united federation for mutual benefit, they would thrive and dominate Europe. You are too obsessed with your xenophobia though.

You should stop calling me xenophobic just because I don't want to associate myself and my country with the Balkans. I'm the exact opposite of xenophobic, and had a lot of Albanian friends. They were not retards like the Albanians here though.

[Dibran]

You should stop calling me xenophobic just because I don't want to associate myself and my country with the Balkans. I'm the exact opposite of xenophobic, and had a lot of Albanian friends. They were not retards like the Albanians here though.

Key word, had. Yea I have Greek friends too, and they are not like You or your ilk either. So the question remains, is the internet the vent for true colors? or do we just get so many of the retards on all sides? I admit some Albanians on here are vile. The difference is I don't join the vile ones to gang up on an entire ethnic group like many of you and yours(of course not all). Truth be told, most people in the Balkans just want to live and let live. It could be so simple, peace and common goal. But religion among other things divides people.

You want nothing to do with the Balkans, yet cant change the fact that your are apart of it, culturally, genetically, historically. When the powers that be are done with the Balkans, you and everyone will look to their neighbors for solutions.

We let east and west pin us all against each other. The attitude of some on here(including you) contribute to that problem. The only time I have come at you Greeks is for the vile disugst you spew against ALL Albanians. Ever see me get on some Greek users who are normal human beings? no...because they are not drinking the cool aid.

[Tauromachos]

This is my opinion: I think that it arrived in two primary waves: Dorians, and Slavs. The majority of NE European DNA in the southern parts of Greece is likely to be Dorian, though some Slavic would exist... in northern Greece most of it is likely Slavic. "Atlantic" type DNA clearly existed in Mycenaeans similar to what exists in Sardinia, Iberia, and western Europe overall.

Dorians?

Why are you all so obssesed with the theory that Dorians where foreign invadors
from the North?

All of this was made up mostly by some Germans in the 19-th century and pushed forward by National Socialists and their propaganda textbooks.!
For obvious reasons;)

Dorians were clearly a Hellenic"Greek" people and closer related to Ionians,Acheans than anything else.
The Mycannean Greeks in Pre-Doric times had already some Northern Ancestry,so it didn't came there with the Dorians and never by any invasion.
The ruling clans"Aristocracy" of the
Dorians traced their origins to local Mycannean lines.
They called themselfes "Heracleids" sons of Heraclis.

Northern can mean alot of things.
The Northern ancestry in Mycanneans was Steppe related ancestry from Pontus and North Iran.
There has never been an influx of Germanic tribes in Greece comparable to that of Northern Italy.

What existed where Slavs and Varanges"Vikings" in Byzantium.
The Vikings a Northern Sea people made early on contact with the Byzantines and had trade relations,they also often
served as mercenaries in the Byzantine army,this is were some of them probably became permanently assimilated and helleno-romanized.

As mentioned before somewhere in Ancient Greece there were Celts and Scythians who adopted Greek language and customs
and mixed at certain times with native Greeks.

Germanics were not known at all in ancient Greece.
They first made contact with the South in the West"Ancient Rome" long before any Germanic tribes man appeared in Greek lands.

Slavs were not known in the Ancient world as such neither.
What was known,were ancient Scythians'Hyberboreans'
the Northernmost people ever mentioned by the Ancient Greeks themselfes.

[brennus dux gallorum]

So lately this Forum has a dilemma: is the Northerh influence on Greeks Indo-European or Slavic?

1) Why not from Celts? Celtic invading tribes had even reached Peloponnese at one point.

2) Why don't they claim that is Germanic? For example, northern Greece was overrun by Germanic tribes, at one point they even reached Athens.

3) Anyone who has studied Byzantine history knows that the Byzantines slaughtered and expelled the Slavs who invaded Greece and settled them in Asia Minor other massacres followed, since the Slavs were rebellious and the Byzantines didn't like that.

But in my opinion, northern influence in Greece is a result of Indo-Europeans. I don't think that Celts and Germanics left many genetic traces in Greece, and as I said previously, the Byzantines eventually expelled the invading Slavs.

Discuss.

I think nobody ever said that there was not celtic or germanic influence, on contrary nw influence (Atlantic +north) is higher than NE in most of the country

BTW celts were not north Europeans

Also, the fact that medieval Scandinavian mercenaries were assimilated is settled

I can give more info about it

[Sikeliot]

I think nobody ever said that there was not celtic or germanic influence, on contrary nw influence (Atlantic +north) is higher than NE in most of the country

Atlantic type admixture was already present in Mycenaeans.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Key word, had. Yea I have Greek friends too, and they are not like You or your ilk either. So the question remains, is the internet the vent for true colors? or do we just get so many of the retards on all sides? I admit some Albanians on here are vile. The difference is I don't join the vile ones to gang up on an entire ethnic group like many of you and yours(of course not all). Truth be told, most people in the Balkans just want to live and let live. It could be so simple, peace and common goal. But religion among other things divides people.

You want nothing to do with the Balkans, yet cant change the fact that your are apart of it, culturally, genetically, historically. When the powers that be are done with the Balkans, you and everyone will look to their neighbors for solutions.

We let east and west pin us all against each other. The attitude of some on here(including you) contribute to that problem. The only time I have come at you Greeks is for the vile disugst you spew against ALL Albanians. Ever see me get on some Greek users who are normal human beings? no...because they are not drinking the cool aid.

It is you the one that has no idea about Greek culture and history, and confuse it with Balkan

We are not here to explain to every single uneducated Albanian the reasons that we are not similar to him, visit us and see

Till then I have to apologize that since we met you first in 1991 we saw nothing familiar to the brachycephalic immigrants from Albania, there is nothing to divide us, we just have no things to connect us

[Lavrentis]

I think nobody ever said that there was not celtic or germanic influence, on contrary nw influence (Atlantic +north) is higher than NE in most of the country

BTW celts were not north Europeans

Also, the fact that medieval Scandinavian mercenaries were assimilated is settled

I can give more info about it

Yeah, Celts were not Northern Europeans but they were more Northern shifted than Greeks.

Btw do we know in which places were the Scandinavian mercenaries settled? I don't really know if they were heavily settled or something.

[Tauromachos]

I think nobody ever said that there was not celtic or germanic influence,

Celtic there was,but Germanic in Ancient Greece was zero,Sorry

As i said,it was Italy ,not Greece where Germanic tribes first entered.
In Greece the first Germanics appeared in Post Roman times"much later than in Italy" and their influx is not comparable to that in Northern Italy.




Also, the fact that medieval Scandinavian mercenaries were assimilated is settled


This is much more likely than anything else related to that topic.
I mentioned it also, by the way

[Lavrentis]

Key word, had. Yea I have Greek friends too, and they are not like You or your ilk either. So the question remains, is the internet the vent for true colors? or do we just get so many of the retards on all sides? I admit some Albanians on here are vile. The difference is I don't join the vile ones to gang up on an entire ethnic group like many of you and yours(of course not all). Truth be told, most people in the Balkans just want to live and let live. It could be so simple, peace and common goal. But religion among other things divides people.

You want nothing to do with the Balkans, yet cant change the fact that your are apart of it, culturally, genetically, historically. When the powers that be are done with the Balkans, you and everyone will look to their neighbors for solutions.

We let east and west pin us all against each other. The attitude of some on here(including you) contribute to that problem. The only time I have come at you Greeks is for the vile disugst you spew against ALL Albanians. Ever see me get on some Greek users who are normal human beings? no...because they are not drinking the cool aid.

Had, have, what's the big difference? I became lost with some after changing school and moving out.

[Peterski]

In terms of Y-DNA lineages in Greece, Slavic contribution is much greater than Germanic and Celtic. Admixture from all those 3 populations is present, but the majority of it is Slavic.

I'm talking about % of Slavic/Germanic/Celtic subclades of R1b, R1a, I1 and I2.

[brennus dux gallorum]

In terms of Y-DNA lineages in Greece, Slavic contribution is much greater than Germanic and Celtic. Admixture from all those 3 populations is present, but the majority of it is Slavic.

This is also what history says, yes, both celtic and germanic, along with other invasions and assimilations are recorded, but not as much as Slavic

[Sikeliot]

I think the further north and inland in Greece, the more of the northern admixture is Slavic versus native.

[brennus dux gallorum]

I think the further north and inland in Greece, the more of the northern admixture is Slavic versus native.

Yes, with inland vs coast coming first.

[Sikeliot]

Yes, with inland vs coast coming first.

I think inland Peloponnesians would be more Slavicized than those on the coast even. For whatever reason it is central Greece close to Attica with the least Slavic of all mainlanders.

[brennus dux gallorum]

I think inland Peloponnesians would be more Slavicized than those on the coast even. For whatever reason it is central Greece close to Attica with the least Slavic of all mainlanders.

I think the "inland effect" is something common in the country as a whole, not only peloponnese, except of mountainous areas, which also may protected from invasions as much as the castles of coast

[Sikeliot]

I think the "inland effect" is something common in the country as a whole, not only peloponnese, except of mountainous areas, which also may protected from invasions as much as the castles of coast

I am glad all the ancient DNA samples came out because they show neither Greek mainlanders nor islanders are unchanged, and neither were ever 100% like modern Sicilians and Dodecanese.

[Tauromachos]

I am glad all the ancient DNA samples came out because they show neither Greek mainlanders nor islanders are unchanged, and neither were ever 100% like modern Sicilians and Dodecanese.

???????
Which DNA samples?

The DNA studies referenced in the thread .linked below tell a different version
of the story

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?217162-Science-Greeks-are-direct-descendants-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans&p=4554739#post4554739


(https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?217162-Science-Greeks-are-direct-descendants-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans&p=4554739#post4554739)

[Sikeliot]

???????
Which DNA samples?

The DNA studies referenced in the thread .linked below tell a different version
of the story

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?217162-Science-Greeks-are-direct-descendants-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans&p=4554739#post4554739


(https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?217162-Science-Greeks-are-direct-descendants-of-Minoans-and-Mycenaeans&p=4554739#post4554739)


They say they are "direct descendants" but I am unsure why they think this when the results and plotting are so different. I would never have interpreted it that way, it's like I read an entirely different paper and saw entirely different charts.

[catgeorge]

Fantasies - Greek R1a is mostly PIE Celtic R1b is also mostly Celtic
Greek I2a is Sardinian. R-M512 is considered North Italian and where Greeks would have got it from
The percentage of Northern Influence post PIE is as miniscule to non existent as you can get

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/Greece/default.aspx?section=yresults

[Сербо Макеридов]

So lately this Forum has a dilemma: is the Northerh influence on Greeks Indo-European or Slavic?

1) Why not from Celts? Celtic invading tribes had even reached Peloponnese at one point.

2) Why don't they claim that is Germanic? For example, northern Greece was overrun by Germanic tribes, at one point they even reached Athens.

3) Anyone who has studied Byzantine history knows that the Byzantines slaughtered and expelled the Slavs who invaded Greece and settled them in Asia Minor other massacres followed, since the Slavs were rebellious and the Byzantines didn't like that.

But in my opinion, northern influence in Greece is a result of Indo-Europeans. I don't think that Celts and Germanics left many genetic traces in Greece, and as I said previously, the Byzantines eventually expelled the invading Slavs.

Discuss.
There is any Celtic haplogroup (or only in trace) among Greeks.
Celts were R1b-U152, R1b-L21, G2a-L496 and maybe R1b-DF27, these haplogroups do not exist or almost do not exist among Greeks.

Greeks have 16% R1b, but that branch have nothing to do with Celts, Greks mostly have eastern branch R1b-L23.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d2/95/6d/d2956de192a379b5eeddccf344356fd9.gif

Only Slavic influence is northern influence among Greeks, there is no Celtic and Germanic influence among Greeks.

[Lavrentis]

There is any Celtic haplogroup (or only in trace) among Greeks.
Celts were R1b-U152, R1b-L21, G2a-L496 and maybe R1b-DF27, these haplogroups do not exist or almost do not exist among Greeks.

Greeks have 16% R1b, but that branch have nothing to do with Celts, Greks mostly have eastern branch R1b-L23.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d2/95/6d/d2956de192a379b5eeddccf344356fd9.gif

Only Slavic influence is northern influence among Greeks, there is no Celtic and Germanic influence among Greeks.

I'm not going to trust the bullshit of some random Serbian pseudo-historian who has said that there was reverse migration from Serbia to the north.

There is no Slavic influence in Greece, it's IE. The Byzantines eventually exterminated the Slavs who invaded Greece.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Сербо Макеридов]

I'm not going to trust the bullshit of some random Serbian pseudo-historian who has said that there was reverse migration from Serbian to the north.

There is no Slavic influence in Greece, it's IE. The Byzantines eventually exterminated the Slavs who invaded Greece.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Dude, Greeks have 11,5% R1a and 9,5% I2a, and that is mostly Slavic legacy.

www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

[Tauromachos]

I think inland Peloponnesians would be more Slavicized than those on the coast even. For whatever reason it is central Greece close to Attica with the least Slavic of all mainlanders.

Peloponnesians??
Slavicized????

The Slavic element in Peloponnesians doesn't exceed 15 % in the whole Peninsular.
In some particular regions it is almost nonexistent "below 1%"

But all the Peloponnesse has some overlapp with Italy and Sicily,in certain regions of the Peninsular its 85% overlapp with
Southern Italians.

[Tauromachos]

Dude, Greeks have 11,5% R1a and 9,5% I2a, and that is mostly Slavic legacy.

www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml)

@Serbo Makeridov
Sorry to say this and no offence with real Serbs,Russians or other Slavs who have contributed also alot to mankind in all fields Sports,Science,Arts,Literature
or any problem with Slavic influences in Greece.

But 11,5% is not that much to talk about 'slavicized' Greeks as Sikeliot does who is neither Greek nor Slavic.
And its by far not sufficient to bag up Sikeliot's claim that Greeks are 30% Balto Slavic:rolleyes:

Or to support the theory of extinction of the Greeks in the Peloponnese and replacement by Slavs made up by
a german 18th-19th century lunatic Fallmereyer:rolleyes:

[Sikeliot]

But all the Peloponnesse has some overlapp with Italy and Sicily,in certain regions of the Peninsular its 85% overlapp with
Southern Italians.

And the other 15% is the northern influence. I am unsure where you get that Peloponnesians are similar to Sicilians because on GEDmatch they are not (not even Maniots) and in the new Sarno et al study I quote from often they said EVEN Peloponnesians fall outside of the eastern Mediterranean cluster occupied by Sicily and islands because of the higher NE European.

Sicilians and islanders clearly have Levantine input, Peloponnese do not.

[Tauromachos]

And the other 15% is the northern influence. I am unsure where you get that Peloponnesians are similar to Sicilians because on GEDmatch they are not (not even Maniots) and in the new Sarno et al study I quote from often they said EVEN Peloponnesians fall outside of the eastern Mediterranean cluster occupied by Sicily and islands because of the higher NE European.

Sicilians and islanders clearly have Levantine input, Peloponnese do not.

Honestly Dude
I never found Greeks in general and Peloponnesians specificly,very slavic looking.
Nor is there any tradition in Greece,that speaks about Slavic ancestors.

I don't know where you got that from that Greeks are 30% Balto-Slavs.:rolleyes:

Also if you talk about modern Greeks in general then this includes also the South East Aegean Islanders,who have 0 slavic.
Together with these included it impossible to model Greeks as 30% Balto Slavic.

And what means NE.?

Sicily has not had only migrations from Peloponnese Greeks,but even from Arvanites who came there as refugees from the
Peloponnese,something you yourself mentioned somewhere.

How is it possible that Sicilians don't have similarities with Peloponnesians and only with East Aegeans?


Never heard such Nonesense.

Sicilians should even have some Albanian element due to the Arvanite immigrations.

You yourself claimed the Levantine element is mostly present in the West of Sicily and in Eastern
Sicily completly absent in some regions.

Is Gedmatch comparable to real scientific studies and articles?

[Sikeliot]

Honestly Dude
I never found Greeks in general and Peloponnesians specificly,very slavic looking.
Nor is there any tradition in Greece,that speaks about Slavic ancestors.

I don't know where you got that from that Greeks are 30% Balto-Slavs.:rolleyes:

Also if you talk about modern Greeks in general then this includes also the South East Aegean Islanders,who have 0 slavic.
Together with these included it impossible to model Greeks as 30% Balto Slavic.

And what means NE.?

Sicily has not had only migrations from Peloponnese Greeks,but even from Arvanites who came there as refugees from the
Peloponnese,something you yourself mentioned somewhere.

How is it possible that Sicilians don't have similarities with Peloponnesians and only with East Aegeans?


Never heard such Nonesense.

Sicilians should even have some Albanian element due to the Arvanite immigrations.

You yourself claimed the Levantine element is mostly present in the West of Sicily and in Eastern
Sicily completly absent in some regions.

Is Gedmatch comparable to real scientific studies and articles?


Ok let me explain it in a way you will finally understand.

This is a map of Sicily:

https://grapecollective.com/media/wysiwyg/Sicily.map.png


This is the admixture chart from Sarno et al. From the RIGHT going leftward; Cyprus, Dodecanese, Crete, Trapani, Palermo, Agrigento, Enna, Ragusa, Catania. Three Sicilian provinces are not sampled: Syracuse, Caltanissetta, and Messina. Messina would be almost identical here to the Calabrese or to Catania, however.

http://i.imgur.com/OFZhscQ.png


As you can see, all of the Sicilians have more of the red "Levant/Arabia" component than any of the Greeks, minus Cyprus, and considerably more than the Peloponnese. In fact, the Peloponnese have more of the blue "Europe" component than do the Central Greeks (look over to the left), which means they have absorbed more Northern influences than have some of the mainlanders further north. Northern Greece has, by far, the most European elements, even more than Albania.

The Sicilians are close to the Cretans and Dodecanese, only the red component is higher and the Caucasian lower.

We can see that if you look at the Levantine element, for Sicily it appears to be lowest in Enna and Trapani. Enna is close to what Syracuse would score, and even though Ragusa has higher, they have more European also.

On the other hand, if we make the blue component symbolize Steppe type DNA, it is almost absent in Palermo and Catania.

Trapani is in western Sicily, but they seem to have been repopulated from the mainland during the Crusades and the Norman conquest, so they once would have been more in line with Agrigento and are today an outlier. But looking at the rest of the list, western Sicily indeed has the most Levantine influence, and then northeast regions like Catania, and then the least would be Ragusa/Enna and presumably Syracuse if it were sampled. It is the inland east and southeast which would have the most Greek influence.

If you use GEDmatch you see, also, higher Steppe influences in SE Sicily, and a closer proximity to Peloponnesians compared to people in Palermo or Agrigento.

[Tauromachos]

And the other 15% is the northern influence

Suppose the 15% are really Slavic.

And?
What does it mean?
Basicly not much!

It is 85% vs 15 % Dude!

How do you claim them to be Balto-Slavicised and ignore the dominating 85% of common overlapp with
Southern Italy?;)

[Sikeliot]

Suppose the 15% are really Slavic.

And?
What does it mean?
Basicly not much!

It is 85% vs 15 % Dude!

How do you claim them to be Balto-Slavicised and ignore the dominating 85% of common overlapp with
Southern Italy?;)


Southern Italians and Sicilians have Levantine ancestry and other sources of northern ancestry of equal amount to what Greeks have in Slavic, so it is relevant when describing phenotypical differences. Some places in Sicily, like Palermo, have more Levantine ancestry than Greek so it is relevant to discuss this.

[Tauromachos]

I never claimed that Sicilians have Slavic ancestry.

And i don't disagree that they have some Levantine.

But you talked more about Greeks here than about Sicilians.
You repeatly emphasized the supposed Slavicness of Greeks and call them 30%
Balto-Slavic and other things making it seem sometimes like you are a second Fallmereyer.

I didn't talked about Sicily and denied distinct features of Sicilians but specifcly referred to your claims
about Greeks.

[Sikeliot]

I never claimed that Sicilians have Slavic ancestry.

And i don't disagree that they have some Levantine.

But you talked more about Greeks here than about Sicilians.
You repeatly emphasized the supposed Slavicness of Greeks and call them 30%
Balto-Slavic and other things making it seem sometimes like you are a second Fallmereyer.

I didn't talked about Sicily and denied distinct features of Sicilians but specifcly referred to your claims
about Greeks.

This is what I notice. If you take the more "normal" Sicilian regions like Palermo and Messina and then compare population to them, this is what the balance of their ancestry usually looks like...

Trapani: Varying amounts of added mainland Italian, Iberian, Sardinian type admixture or NW European
SE Sicily: 10-12% "Slavic" groups
Peloponnesians: 19-25% "Slavic" groups
Rest of mainland Greece: 25-33% "Slavic" groups

This makes SE Sicily halfway between "regular" Sicily and Peloponnese, and pushes SE Sicily north of the Cretan/Aegean islands cluster.

[Tauromachos]

Peloponesians never have 25% Slavic.

Its not more than 15% by scientific articles i have read and Mani is one of the Places in the
Peloponese with the least Slavic not even 1%.

[Sikeliot]

Peloponesians never have 25% Slavic.

Its not more than 15% by scientific articles i have read and Mani is one of the Places in the
Peloponese with the least Slavic not even 1%.

I didn't say they did but on GEDmatch you can model them that way, implying that even without Slavic influence they still shift northeast of Sicily.

[Coolguy1]

This is what I notice. If you take the more "normal" Sicilian regions like Palermo and Messina and then compare population to them, this is what the balance of their ancestry usually looks like...

Trapani: Varying amounts of added mainland Italian, Iberian, Sardinian type admixture or NW European
SE Sicily: 10-12% "Slavic" groups
Peloponnesians: 19-25% "Slavic" groups
Rest of mainland Greece: 25-33% "Slavic" groups

This makes SE Sicily halfway between "regular" Sicily and Peloponnese, and pushes SE Sicily north of the Cretan/Aegean islands cluster.

If you consider that 10-12% northeastern ancestry in southeastern Sicilians as coming from the ancient Greeks that modern Peloponnesians should only be considered 10-13% Slavic.

[Loki]

But in my opinion, northern influence in Greece is a result of Indo-Europeans.


Yes, I agree with you. Greeks had IE-sourced Northern influence long before Slavs and Germanics came around. The Dorians for example were often fair.

[MagnusAurelius]

This is a stupid thread full of arguing fools. Lets go by facts, not the egotistic opinions of some anthrotard. It was most likely IndoEuropean migrants who mixed with the Indigenous Neolithic greeks, this mixing between 2 Caucasoid groups formed the Greek population since Ancient times.

http://archhades.blogspot.ca/2014/12/historical-greek-racial-continuity-and.html

Historical Greek racial continuity and Modern-Ancient Greek physical similarity is a reality.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/dna-analysis-sheds-light-mysterious-origins-ancient-greeks-180964314/

[Tauromachos]

This is a stupid thread full of arguing fools. Lets go by facts, not the egotistic opinions of some anthrotard. It was most likely IndoEuropean migrants who mixed with the Indigenous Neolithic greeks, this mixing between 2 Caucasoid groups formed the Greek population since Ancient times.

http://archhades.blogspot.ca/2014/12/historical-greek-racial-continuity-and.html

Historical Greek racial continuity and Modern-Ancient Greek physical similarity is a reality.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/dna-analysis-sheds-light-mysterious-origins-ancient-greeks-180964314/

Yes,very true
Indoeuropean is a more general term than Slavic,Germanic or Nordic.
Slavs and Nordic people are two subbranches of the broader spectrum of Indoeuropean people.

Even native Persians belong to the Indoeuropean family.

One of the most ancient Indoeuropean cultures in the Caucasus was Armenian.

Alot of people here are also racists with Armenians and talk about Armenians as if it would be something bad,
something i don't understand at all.

As for Greece,Armenians have never done anything bad to our Country and traditionally Greeks perceived them more as friends
and felt kinship to them.
There are also similarities between ancient Greek and Armenian language as someone mentioned.

[Lavrentis]

Yes,very true
Indoeuropean is a more general term than Slavic,Germanic or Nordic.
Slavs and Nordic people are two subbranches of the broader spectrum of Indoeuropean people.

Even native Persians belong to the Indoeuropean family.

One of the most ancient Indoeuropean cultures in the Caucasus was Armenian.

Alot of people here are also racists with Armenians and talk about Armenians as if it would be something bad,
something i don't understand at all.

As for Greece,Armenians have never done anything bad to our Country and traditionally Greeks perceived them more as friends
and felt kinship to them.
There are also similarities between ancient Greek and Armenian language as someone mentioned.

Kinship to Armenians? Maybe Anatolian Greeks.

[FroZzenMind]

Similar to S Italians

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IHlgWAewnrc/TgDoYbyYUMI/AAAAAAAAD18/YlPm4vCjgq4/s1600/West_Eurasian_12.png

[Tauromachos]

Kinship to Armenians? Maybe Anatolian Greeks.

And what is your problem with Armenians?

Was there ever an Armenian invasion in Greece?
Did Armenians ever troll Greeks and Greek threads,like alot of other people here do?...

[Lavrentis]

And what is your problem with Armenians?

Was there ever an Armenian invasion in Greece?
Did Armenians ever troll Greeks and Greek threads,like alot of other people here do?...

You just made a big strawman there.

Who said that there was an Armenian invasion of Greece and that Armenians troll us?

I simply said that we don't feel kinship with Armenians.

[MINARDOWICZ]

Based on the new DNA results, i bet it is Dorian.

[Сербо Макеридов]

@Serbo Makeridov
Sorry to say this and no offence with real Serbs,Russians or other Slavs who have contributed also alot to mankind in all fields Sports,Science,Arts,Literature
or any problem with Slavic influences in Greece.

But 11,5% is not that much to talk about 'slavicized' Greeks as Sikeliot does who is neither Greek nor Slavic.
And its by far not sufficient to bag up Sikeliot's claim that Greeks are 30% Balto Slavic:rolleyes:

Or to support the theory of extinction of the Greeks in the Peloponnese and replacement by Slavs made up by
a german 18th-19th century lunatic Fallmereyer:rolleyes:

Greeks have 15-20% Slavic Y DNA.
That is approximately similar such as Italians and Spaniards have Germanic influence.

In autosomal DNA Greeks probably have more North European admixture than southern Italians and Sicilians.

[Dorian]

Greeks have 15-20% Slavic Y DNA.
That is approximately similar such as Italians and Spaniards have Germanic influence.

In autosomal DNA Greeks probably have more North European admixture than southern Italians and Sicilians.

Great so we have like 2 million people with a slavic grand-grand******father?how many were the slavic settlers?I think you're being modest,I'd say 65%.

[Tauromachos]

You just made a big strawman there.

Who said that there was an Armenian invasion of Greece and that Armenians troll us?

I simply said that we don't feel kinship with Armenians.

You,personally!

Other Greeks do and traditionaly Greeks and Armenians where friends.

Doesn't mean that Greeks and Armenians are the same people.

But Greeks and Slavs are also different folks and not the same.

Nevertheless there are also historical bonds and traditional kinship between Greeks,Serbs and Russians,no doubt

At least common religion and struggle for freedom and independence unites them.
All 3 nations had to endure hardships in the past and know how to survive in difficult times

[Lollipop]

What's with the balkanites insecurity and slavs?

[Lavrentis]

You,personally!

Other Greeks do and traditionaly Greeks and Armenians where friends.

Doesn't mean that Greeks and Armenians are the same people.

But Greeks and Slavs are also different folks and not the same.

Nevertheless there are also historical bonds and traditional kinship between Greeks,Serbs and Russians,no doubt

At least common religion and struggle for freedom and independence unites them.
All 3 nations had to endure hardships in the past and know how to survive in difficult times

There is no tradional bond and kinship between Greeks and Serbs,Russians, that's Serbian propaganda. Greece has nothing to do with these countries.

FYROM is Orthodox too, doesn't mean that we have bonds with them.

Btw Armenians are not Orthodox, they are Apostolic.

[Lavrentis]

What's with the balkanites insecurity and slavs?

I think Balkan people have something on Greece.

Albanians claim that half of Greeks are Hellenized Albanians and now this Serbian dumbass claims that Greeks are 20% Slavic.

I think you guys should leave us alone.

[Lollipop]

I think Balkan people have something on Greece.

Albanians claim that half of Greeks are Hellenized Albanians and now this Serbian dumbass claims that Greeks are 20% Slavic.

I think you guys should leave us alone.

For harcore nationalist balkanites like albanians and Greeks, being slavic or having slavic influence seems to be a disease worse than cancer.

[Сербо Макеридов]

I think Balkan people have something on Greece.

Albanians claim that half of Greeks are Hellenized Albanians and now this Serbian dumbass claims that Greeks are 20% Slavic.

I think you guys should leave us alone.

From Albanian views Greeks are mostly Arvanites.

[Lavrentis]

From Albanian views Greeks are mostly Arvanites.

Arvanites are not even 100.000 though, they are probably less.

[Tauromachos]

For harcore nationalist balkanites like albanians and Greeks, being slavic or having slavic influence seems to be a disease worse than cancer.

Not at all and Greeks certainly are not Balkanite nationalists.

[Freeroostah]

I think the further north and inland in Greece, the more of the northern admixture is Slavic versus native.

If thats true then why do Greeks score towards Tuscany rather than Ukraine on GEDmatch?
As a mountain mainlander Greek, I always score 0% East European on the DNA tests while having significant Central European admixture and even Scandinavian(!)

I believe that Greeks have north influence from the NW rather than the NE.
Even phenotypically we have more similarities with the Bavarians and Swiss than Ukrainians or Polish.

[Tauromachos]

From Albanian views Greeks are mostly Arvanites.

And who cares about Albanian views???

[Сербо Макеридов]

@ Lavrentis

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3e/f2/b5/3ef2b5fc99b2430f5637d796de892348--ancestry-greece.jpg

Cheers! :cool:

[Lavrentis]

@ Lavrentis

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3e/f2/b5/3ef2b5fc99b2430f5637d796de892348--ancestry-greece.jpg

Cheers! :cool:

Only in Serbian pseudo-history fantasy maps you see half of Greece as Slavic/Serbian.

I can post other maps which completely minimize Slavic presence in Greece.

And finally, the Byzantines eventually kicked out all the Slavs. Did you know that after a Slavic rebellion in Greece, 200.000 Slavs were slaughtered and the survivors were exiled in Asia Minor?

[Сербо Макеридов]

Only in Serbian pseudo-history fantasy maps you see half of Greece as Slavic/Serbian.

I can post other maps which completely minimize Slavic presence in Greece.

And finally, the Byzantines eventually kicked out all the Slavs. Did you know that after a Slavic rebellion in Greece, 200.000 Slavs were slaughtered and the survivors were exiled in Asia Minor?

Greek pseudo-historians as you are claim that Greeks are descendants of Zeus and Apollo. :picard1:

[Lavrentis]

Greek pseudo-historians as you are claim that Greeks are descendants of Zeus and Apollo. :picard1:

Of Zeus and Apollo quite unlikely, but of Alexander and Socrates yes.

[Tauromachos]

Greek pseudo-historians as you are claim that Greeks are descendants of Zeus and Apollo. :picard1:

:picard2::picard2::picard2:

[catgeorge]

@ Lavrentis

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/3e/f2/b5/3ef2b5fc99b2430f5637d796de892348--ancestry-greece.jpg

Cheers! :cool:

It didnt last long

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Byzantine_Empire_Themes_1025-en.svg

The earliest evidence for a relocation of Slavs from the Balkans may be a seal dated to 650. In 658 and 688/9 the Byzantines relocated 50,000 groups of Slavic settlers to Bithynia. Constans II settled captured Slavs in Asia Minor, and 5,000 of these joined Abdulreman ibn Khalid in 664-665.

There was a town in Bithynia known as Gordoservon, mentioned in 680–81, whose name is derived from the Serbs resettled there from the areas "around river Vardar" by Byzantine Emperor Constans II (r. 641–668), in the mid-7th century (in ca. 649 or 667. The bishop of Gordoservon, an Isidor, is also mentioned; the fact that this town was an episcopal seat gives ground to the thesis that it had a large Serbian population. Around the year 1200 this city is mentioned as 'Servochoria' (Serbian habitation). There were 20,000 Slavs relocated from Peloponnesos.

Justinian II (685-695) also relocated as many as 80,000 Slavs from Macedonia, Epirus and Thrace in Asia Minor, in an attempt to boost military strength. Most of them however, with their leader Neboulos, deserted to the Arabs at the Battle of Sebastopolis in 692.

Military campaigns in northern Greece in 758 under Constantine V (r. 741–775) prompted a relocation of Slavs under Bulgar aggression, again in 783. The Bulgar expansion caused massive Slav migrations, and in 762, more than 350,000 people fled to Byzantine territory and were relocated to Asia Minor.

The most prominent among the Asia Minor Slavs was Thomas the Slav, a military commander who raised most of the empire in an unsuccessful revolt against Michael II the Amorian in the early 820s. Although the 10th-century chronicler Genesios calls him "Thomas from Lake Gouzourou, of Armenian race", most modern scholars support his Slavic descent and believe his birthplace to have been near Gaziura in the Pontus.

The Slavs of the Opsician Theme (Sklabesianoi) are still attested as a separate group in the 10th century, serving as marines in the Byzantine navy some 130,000 were relocated from Thessaly and southwards

The Serbs rose up against the Byzantines in 1127–29, probably with Hungarian support; After the Byzantine victory, 65,000 of the Serb population was deported to Asia Minor.

We did not kill you we deported you.

[Babak]

Arvanites are not even 100.000 though, they are probably less.

So arvantines are basically assmilated albanians right?

[Lavrentis]

So arvantines are basically assmilated albanians right?

They came from Albania, their mother language is Albanian so...

[catgeorge]

So arvantines are basically assmilated albanians right?

No one knows for sure as Arvanites are anthropologically Greeks. They could be Albanians but Arvanite is not 100% Albanian linguistically it is a mixture of Vlach and Greek where Greek made 30% of the vernacular. I think they are Greco-Vlachs picking up local dialects as Turks did not believe in schools.

The Albanian argument is the mussulman population which historians were writing about and Albanians here confuse them as Arvanites when Albanian is mentioned by historians. These Albanian Mussulmans and were plenty were cleansed.

[Lavrentis]

@Babak, they mixed with Greeks though, If you want to find pure Arvanites you have to go in the villages of Attica imo.

[Köstebek]

So arvantines are basically assmilated albanians right?

Arnavut is the way Turks call Albanians. So figüre out. They pretty much the same people. Athens were populated with them before the modern city Athens was built by Greeks again

[Babak]

Cool, thanks guys.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Greek pseudo-historians as you are claim that Greeks are descendants of Zeus and Apollo. :picard1:

Your map shows Slavic settlement in the parts of the country that not only remain the least populated today but also to a high degree by non Greek originated people

The core of Greek population which represents the 80% of the country lives near the coast of mainland (0-30km) or in the islands, in both cases non Slavic occupied according to your map

[catgeorge]

Your map shows Slavic settlement in the parts of the country that not only remain the least populated today but also to a high degree by non Greek originated people

The core of Greek population which represents the 80% of the country lives near the coast of mainland (0-30km) or in the islands, in both cases non Slavic occupied according to your map

Say again

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/f/fd/20110504064743%21Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.p ng

[brennus dux gallorum]

Say again

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/archive/f/fd/20110504064743%21Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.p ng

I am talking mostly about historical ages :)

[brennus dux gallorum]

For harcore nationalist balkanites like albanians and Greeks, being slavic or having slavic influence seems to be a disease worse than cancer.

I have nothing against you or balkans, but joining threads to advertise us as balkans will not make us to feel balkanic or to be perceived as such by the majority in Europe :)

As for slavs, I am personally OK with the fact that 1-7% of my ancestry is Slavic

[catgeorge]

Southern Greeks ex Peloponnesians and half of Crete are Bankids close to Levant - look what they have done to the country with corruption. They are culturally closer to Jews with their leftism.
Northern Greeks are more conservative, militant and austere.

[Tauromachos]

So will Sikeliot in the future start to claim that Turks are also Slavs and cluster Northern from Sicilians?

[brennus dux gallorum]

I think Balkan people have something on Greece.

Albanians claim that half of Greeks are Hellenized Albanians and now this Serbian dumbass claims that Greeks are 20% Slavic.

I think you guys should leave us alone.

Yes, for some reason they want to be somehow related to us, but the fact that we are very different from them doesn't change

[Ylla]

This is my opinion: I think that it arrived in two primary waves: Dorians, and Slavs. The majority of NE European DNA in the southern parts of Greece is likely to be Dorian, though some Slavic would exist... in northern Greece most of it is likely Slavic. "Atlantic" type DNA clearly existed in Mycenaeans similar to what exists in Sardinia, Iberia, and western Europe overall.

What about vlachs? That's more believable than you repeating Slavic influence. I2 and R1a are also found in Romanians. Vlahos (Βλάχος) is second most popular surname in Greece.

Not saying these influences exist but you have to consider other sources. For example Ghegs exaggerate Slavic influence in Tosks when this can simply be vlach settlements.

[brennus dux gallorum]

What about vlachs? That's more believable than you repeating Slavic influence. I2 and R1a are also found in Romanians. Vlahos (Βλάχος) is second most popular surname in Greece.

Not saying these influences exist but you have to consider other sources. For example Ghegs exaggerate Slavic influence in Tosks when this can simply be vlach settlements.

Vlachos as a surname means Shepherd, and it's much more common in parts of Greece where there were zero contacts with Latin vlachs, and where there were no vlach communities

I would agree with you, but there is particular reason that sikeliot is right: vlachs had the habit to not make families with natives, at least in Greece, in contrast to slavs who were assimilated

[Ujku]

What about vlachs? That's more believable than you repeating Slavic influence. I2 and R1a are also found in Romanians. Vlahos (Βλάχος) is second most popular surname in Greece.

Not saying these influences exist but you have to consider other sources. For example Ghegs exaggerate Slavic influence in Tosks when this can simply be vlach settlements.

vlachs are latinized LOCALS ffs. How many times do we have to say this??

Have you ever seen Albanian vlachs?? They look 100% Albanian same applies to Greek vlachs.

[Lollipop]

Have you ever seen Albanian vlachs?? They look 100% Albanian same applies to Greek vlachs.

Ofcourse they look the same, since the handfull of nomad sheep herders were assimilated.Instead of speaking out of your ass, why not use your brain?

[Ujku]

lollipop you Romanian idiot stop making 100 accounts ... you and your gay friend gave me all my thumb downs.

VLACHS ARE NOT ROMANIAN either you like it or not.

[brennus dux gallorum]

vlachs are latinized LOCALS ffs. How many times do we have to say this??

Have you ever seen Albanian vlachs?? They look 100% Albanian same applies to Greek vlachs.

I don't know if they are latinised natives, but from vlachs I know personally they were not married with non-vlachs until recently

As for the surname vlach, it usually means Shepherd or peasant

[Lollipop]

lollipop you Romanian idiot stop making 100 accounts ... you and your gay friend gave me all my thumb downs.

VLACHS ARE NOT ROMANIAN either you like it or not.

Crying like a whore and repeating sentences won't make people believe you.

[Ujku]

Crying like a whore and repeating sentences won't make people believe you.

Come face to face and I'll show you who is the whore latinized slav.

[Ujku]

I don't know if they are latinised natives, but from vlachs I know personally they were not married with non-vlachs until recently

As for the surname vlach, it usually means Shepherd or peasant

Have you ever seen Albanian vlachs ? they look Albanian except of few that in 91' become Greeks again.

[catgeorge]

I don't know if they are latinised natives, but from vlachs I know personally they were not married with non-vlachs until recently

As for the surname vlach, it usually means Shepherd or peasant

What? lol

[brennus dux gallorum]

What? lol

I am not an English speaking master, but I think you can easily understand what I'm saying

[catgeorge]

I am not an English speaking master, but I think you can easily understand what I'm saying

It is factually incorrect.

Anyway - Giorgos Vlachos is the founder of newspaper Kathimerini and this was his letter to Hitler

The most Epic Letter I have had the pleasure to read


To His Excellency, Adolf Hitler,
Translation of an open letter to Hitler from M. Georges Vlachos, published in the Kathimerini of Saturday, March 8th, 1941.

To His Excellency, Adolf Hitler,
Chancellor of the German Reich
Excellency,
As you are aware, Greece wanted to stay out of the current war. When it broke out, Greece was just recovering from a series of great wounds caused by wars abroad and domestic division; it had neither the strength nor the desire nor any reason to get involved in a war whose outcome will certainly have serious consequences for the whole world but whose onset did not present direct dangers to Greece. Even if one does not take into account Greece's direct statements, nor the documents that it published, nor the many speeches and documents certifying its intention to stay out of the war, one should pay heed to the following: That when the Greeks found the fragments of the torpedo that sank the light cruiser Elli in the port of Tinos (on August 15, 1940) and they confirmed that it was Italian, they hid the fact. Why? Because if they had revealed this they would have been obliged to declare war or to accept the declaration of war.

Greece did not want war with the Italians, neither on its own nor as part of an alliance, nor with other Balkan countries nor with the English. All it wanted was to live peacefully in this small corner of the world, because it was exhausted, because it had fought much and because its geographical position is such that it does not wish to have as its enemy the Germans on land nor the English at sea. Until that moment, the moment that the Elli was sunk, in addition to its pacifist inclinations, Greece also had the additional security of two signatures: An Italian non-aggression agreement and an English one guaranteeing Greece's territorial integrity. And so, shortly after the attack on the Elli, which provided tangible proof of future Italian aggression, convinced that the one signature was worthless, Greece still did not turn to the other side, as it ought to have done. Instead, it turned to you, Excellency. Do you recall? And it requested your protection. And what reply did Greece receive? I am not well-informed as to the reply. I know, however, according to our now-deceased prime minister, that Germany replied that we should not provide a pretext - that we should not mobilize, in other words - and for us to remain quiet. So we did not provide cause, we did not mobilize, we remained quiet. Or rather, we should say we slept quietly because a day earlier the Italians had hosted a dinner for us, when the Italian ambassador presented the ultimatum. And so, to whom would you expect Greece to turn? To the Italians, in the knowledge of where the torpedo came from, and the worthless signature? But they had declared war on Greece. Toward you? But you, unfortunately, were in Florence that very morning, on October 28. Should Greece stand alone? But it had neither an air force nor materiel nor money nor a fleet. So it turned toward the only other power whose signature it held. The English.

And they, even though their homeland was burning, who were on wary guard on the Channel's shores, who did not have enough means for their own security, heeded our call. They came immediately. Without demands, without negotiations, without documents. And after a few days, on the front that the brutal Italian surprise attack had established in the mountains of Epirus, the first Greek soldiers and the first English airman fell. You and the whole world know what happened after those hours. The Italians were defeated. And they were defeated in man-to-man fighting by us - the small, the weak. Not by the English. Because no English soldier set foot in Albania. The Italians were defeated. Why? Because they had no ideals, because they did not have the heart for this. Because... - But that is not our issue here. You remained a spectator of this battle, and we were told that you said: «This issue does not concern me. It is an Italian problem. I will not intervene unless English soldiers disembark in Thessaloniki in large numbers.» Since then, Excellency, we could ask you: «What about Florence? When, on the day that the Italians attacked Greece, you met with them on the banks of the Arno and handed over Greece?» But we did not wish to pose the question. Along with the fragments of the Italian torpedo we also hid in our pocket the meeting in Florence. And when some indiscreet voices would remind us of this we would reply: «The Germans disagreed. The Italians tricked them.» Why? Because we wanted to believe this. Because it was in our interest. Later, as we advanced into Albania, so did relations between Germany and Greece improve. The swastika flew above your Embassy in Athens at the start of the new year. It was lowered to half-staff when Prime Minister (Ioannis) Metaxas died.

Your ambassador visited to congratulate the new prime minister. Trade relations between our two countries had resumed. And you protested vigorously when an American newspaper reported that German tanks had appeared in Albania. So all was well. We were in Albania, you were spectators and our English allies took part only with their aircraft and their fleet. Only. You know how hard we tried to keep their participation at that. We need only recall that when a British airplane crashed in Thessaloniki we requested of the British that they not be the ones to recover it. So that not even 10 English soldiers be seen there. So that we do not provide a pretext. You laugh?... You should. But at this time, even though we had relations, even though Germany's position created a sense of some calm, you started to assemble forces in Romania. At first they were intended to train Romanians. Then they were to protect the oil there. Then they were to protect that country's borders. Then - then they were 400,000.

At that time, the undersigned visited Bulgaria on a journalistic mission and passed along the route that your troops are now passing. On his return, he told our late prime minister: «The road to Sofia has been widened. The wooden bridges have been recently fortified with supports. The shavings from the timber are still there. It is clear that the Bulgarians have worked hastily to prepare the road for an army to pass upon it...» After this, what was Greece to do? To request assistance? Not to request assistance? To show trust? Not to show trust? Could Greece remain unmoved when it saw the Germans on the Bulgarian border, when it counted them crossing the Danube, when it saw them entering Sofia and forging an alliance with the Bulgarians, when it heard the Bulgarians talk about the national goals that they wanted to achieve? Could Greece believe that the Germans were in Koula (on the Greek-Bulgarian border) in order to protect Romanian oil? But even so, let us leave all these incidents and declarations and history aside and let us come to the present. It appears, according to all the world's radio stations, that the Germans want to invade Greece. And we ask you: Why? If the operation against Greece were deemed necessary for the Axis from the start, then (Italian ambassador Count Emmanuele) Grazzi would not have appeared on his own (to Metaxas) four months ago at 3 o'clock in the morning.

Italy and Germany together would have presented another ultimatum, with different contents, with different deadlines. So, the operation against Greece was not deemed necessary for the Axis at the start. But is it now? Why? So that there may not be a new front against Germany in the Balkans? But that is nonsense. Neither Greece, which is at war, nor England (it clearly says as much in the official statement of two days ago, on March 6, but common sense argues for this even more strongly), nor Serbia, nor Turkey have any reason to provoke the further spread of the war. The war as it is is enough for them. In which case, why? Is it so that the Italians can be rescued in Albania? But what kind of rescue will this be? Will the Italians not be seen by the whole world to have been defeated totally, finally and for all time the moment the first German soldier sets foot in Greece? Will the whole world not cry out that all 45 million of them attacked our small nation of 8 million and they now call on the help of another 85 million to save them? And in the end, they may want to be rescued, but why should others come to their rescue in a way that is so demeaning? When we can help rescue them without making fools of them? Let the Italians leave Albania of their own accord... Let them tell everyone that they beat us, that they got tired of chasing us around, that they have had their fill of glory and are now leaving. We will help them. But you may ask, Excellency, «All this is well and good, but what about the English?»

However, Excellency, we did not bring the English to Greece, the Italians did. Can we now tell those whom the Italians brought to go? And let us say that we tell them to leave. Who do we address this to? To the living. But how do we ask for the removal of those who have died? Those who fell in our mountains, those who - wounded - landed their planes in Attica and left their last breath here, those who, though their own country was in flames, came and fought here and fell here and found their grave here? Listen, Excellency, there are shameful deeds that are not committed in Greece. And that would be a most shameful deed. We can chase out neither the living nor the dead. We will not chase out anyone. We will stand with them, here, until there is a ray of sunshine and the storm is over. And you? You - they always say - will try to invade Greece. And we?

We are a naive nation still and we do not believe this. We do not believe that an army with a long history and tradition - which even its enemies do not deny - will want to soil itself with a horribly wretched act. We do not believe that a heavily armed State of 85 million people fighting to create «a new world order» will ask for an attack on a small Nation that is fighting for its freedom against an Empire of 45 million. Because, what will this army do, Excellency, if instead of infantry, artillery and divisions Greece sends to its borders 20,000 wounded - without legs, without arms, in their bloodied bandages - to meet it? Is there an army anywhere that could attack such border guards? But no, this will not happen. If called upon, the army of Greece, whatever it is that remains free, will stand in Thrace they way it stood in Epirus. It will fight in Thrace as it did in Epirus. It will fight hard. It will die. And it will await the return from Berlin of the runner who came here five years ago and took with him the flame from Olympia, only to return with a torch to light a fire that threatens this land which may be small but is also great. This land that taught the world to live will now teach it how to die.

[Ujku]

Catgeorge i doubt if anyone is going to read that.

[Lollipop]

Come face to face and I'll show you who is the whore latinized slav.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_btrpe9ou5M

https://static1.fjcdn.com/comments/Haha+what+a+slut+_6155cdc5cdfe1deb83922ba425d7cc79 .png

[brennus dux gallorum]

It is factually incorrect.

Anyway - Giorgos Vlachos is the founder of newspaper Kathimerini and this was his letter to Hitler

The most Epic Letter I have had the pleasure to read

There is nothing incorrect about anything I wrote

http://www.diakonima.gr/2009/10/08/οι-βλάχοι-της-ελλάδας-1/

"until ww2 vlachs were not mixed with the local population"

From my personal experience I can ensure you that it was even more recently, like 60's and the particular source is vlach

As for the surnames, I can give plenty of sources writing that the particular surname, which is common everywhere else except of areas with vlach communities, means Shepherd or peasant, not vlach speaker

[Ujku]

,,,,,


hahahahhaha good one.

[Ujku]

There is nothing incorrect about anything I wrote

http://www.diakonima.gr/2009/10/08/οι-βλάχοι-της-ελλάδας-1/

"until ww2 vlachs were not mixed with the local population"

From my personal experience I can ensure you that it was even more recently, like 60's and the particular source is vlach

As for the surnames, I can give plenty of sources writing that the particular surname, which is common everywhere else except of areas with vlach communities, means Shepherd or peasant, not vlach speaker

I also know that many Arvanites got the Vlach surname.
Because arvanites were mainly shepherds like Albanians.

[catgeorge]

There is nothing incorrect about anything I wrote

http://www.diakonima.gr/2009/10/08/οι-βλάχοι-της-ελλάδας-1/

"until ww2 vlachs were not mixed with the local population"

From my personal experience I can ensure you that it was even more recently, like 60's and the particular source is vlach

As for the surnames, I can give plenty of sources writing that the particular surname, which is common everywhere else except of areas with vlach communities, means Shepherd or peasant, not vlach speaker

You're a fruit loop. Do you even know what a Vlach is?

[catgeorge]

Catgeorge i doubt if anyone is going to read that.

You should

Word for Word.

[Lollipop]

You should

Word for Word.

I did.I'm literally in tears.Not even hachiko made me cry like this.

[brennus dux gallorum]

I also know that many Arvanites got the Vlach surname.
Because arvanites were mainly shepherds like Albanians.

The majority of the world's population was consisted of shepherds before the industrial revolution in each country

[Lollipop]

The majority of the world's population was consisted of shepherds before the industrial revolution in each country

Hmm , no?Majority were cattle herders and farmers.Sheperding was done when they couldn't farm or grow animals.

[brennus dux gallorum]

Hmm , no?Majority were cattle herders and farmers.Sheperding was done when they couldn't farm or grow animals.

Animal keepers, anyway:)

[Lollipop]

Animal keepers, anyway:)

http://www.ancientfortresses.org/medieval-occupations.htm

[Lavrentis]

Ofcourse they look the same, since the handfull of nomad sheep herders were assimilated.Instead of speaking out of your ass, why not use your brain?

Stop with that Romanian propaganda. Most Greek Vlachs have nothing to do with Romania.

[Lollipop]

Stop with that Romanian propaganda. Most Greek Vlachs have nothing to do with Romania.

Stop with that Greek propaganda. Most Greek Vlachs have nothing to do with Greece.

[Laberia]

Stop with that Greek propaganda. Most Greek Vlachs have nothing to do with Greece.

But exist also the theory that Vlachs have nothing to do with Romania.

[Lollipop]

But exist also the theory that Vlachs have nothing to do with Romania.

But exists also the theory that Albanians have come from Caucasus.

[Laberia]

But exists also the theory that Albanians have come from Caucasus.

From Caucasus arrived your mom after being raped even in nose and in her ears. I don't know why this piece of shit is allowed to post in this forum.
P. S.
You didn't answer to my question. Why Vlachs in servia hate Romania?

[Сербо Макеридов]

But exists also the theory that Albanians have come from Caucasus.

Albanians are nowcomers to Europe, the come from the Caucasus (which is modern Azerbaijan) in 11th century in year 1042.


https://youtu.be/CCMu4QDn5GY
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Caucasus03.jpg

[Lollipop]

From Caucasus arrived your mom after being raped even in nose and in her ears. I don't know why this piece of shit is allowed to post in this forum.
P. S.
You didn't answer to my question. Why Vlachs in servia hate Romania?

Koko, I had a previous question too, that you didn't answer.It's not nice.Why don't you show that you have good manners, and answer this:Are you mentally disabled?

[Lavrentis]

Stop with that Greek propaganda. Most Greek Vlachs have nothing to do with Greece.

How about going to Greece and telling them that?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Laberia]

Koko, I had a previous question too, that you didn't answer.It's not nice.Why don't you show that you have good manners, and answer this:Are you mentally disabled?

You are the most idiot troll of this forum. No one knows the exact number of your accounts here.

[Lavrentis]

You are the most idiot troll of this forum. No one knows the exact number of your accounts here.

So he's a sock puppet? Which was his previous account?

[Laberia]

So he's a sock puppet? Which was his previous account?

He is a sock with thousands of accounts. He is the TROLL. The most famous account is Deymark the Bastard of Forum Romanum. Does not exist something that can be compared with him. Believe me, don't spend your time with him.

[Lavrentis]

He is a sock with thousands of accounts. He is the TROLL. The most famous account is Deymark the Bastard of Forum Romanum. Does not exist something that can be compared with him. Believe me, don't spend your time with him.

I remember that 'Deymark' guy was involved in a saga when I first joined. Something about Discord or something.

[Lollipop]

So he's a sock puppet? Which was his previous account?

I wouldn't waste my time with that paranoid buffoon, he's been attacking me non-stop ever since I joined this forum, 2 weeks ago .I mean, just take a look at his Received Reputation. 2,941 negatives?C'mon now...

[Laberia]

I remember that 'Deymark' guy was involved in a saga when I first joined. Something about Discord or something.

Yep, exactly. He is a medical case to study. There is nothing that can be compared with him. He is unique.

[Scholarios]

been over it many times. ydna evidence and historical, toponymic evidence says slavs did it. we also now know that myceneans had a northeast component, but it was not as high as modern greeks. also celts and germanics did not really settle in greece, tho they did raid.

[Lavrentis]

been over it many times. ydna evidence and historical, toponymic evidence says slavs did it. we also now know that myceneans had a northeast component, but it was not as high as modern greeks. also celts and germanics did not really settle in greece, tho they did raid.

Slavs settled only in Sklavinies which were segregated communities. After they revolted, the Byzantines kicked them out and settled them in Asia Minor. Then they revolted once again and the Byzantines slaughtered all of them.

[Sikeliot]

Slavs settled only in Sklavinies which were segregated communities. After they revolted, the Byzantines kicked them out and settled them in Asia Minor. Then they revolted once again and the Byzantines slaughtered all of them.

Genetics shows otherwise. Never trust any historical claim of any people being entirely slaughtered... people always survive and assimilate.

[Lavrentis]

Genetics shows otherwise. Never trust any historical claim of any people being entirely slaughtered... people always survive and assimilate.

What do genetics show? That Greeks have direct Slavic influence?

[Tauromachos]

Genetics shows otherwise. Never trust any historical claim of any people being entirely slaughtered... people always survive and assimilate.

Yes,and then i'm asking you again,how is it possible then that native Mycanaean Greeks didn't survive through the ages in the Greek Mainland,
but only Slavs and Arvanites?

[Lollipop]

been over it many times. ydna evidence and historical, toponymic evidence says slavs did it. we also now know that myceneans had a northeast component, but it was not as high as modern greeks. also celts and germanics did not really settle in greece, tho they did raid.

It's cringy when balkanites get slavic ydna or east european admixture or steppe admixture and they try to blame it on everyone other than slavs instead of saying"I'm PROUD of my SCYTO-SARMATIAN ancestors, who have conquered the entire Eurasia"

I mean, look at Rethel, he's a dumb egghead, but atleast he knows his game.

[Sikeliot]

Yes,and then i'm asking you again,how is it possible then that native Mycanaean Greeks didn't survive through the ages in the Greek Mainland,
but only Slavs and Arvanites?

Mycenaeans did survive and those are 70% of your ancestors, while Slavs and other people carrying Northeast Euro DNA are the other 30%.

And y-dna shows that subclades of I2 and R1a in Greece match those of Eastern Europe.

[Tauromachos]

Mycenaeans did survive and those are 70% of your ancestors, while Slavs and other people carrying Northeast Euro DNA are the other 30%.

And y-dna shows that subclades of I2 and R1a in Greece match those of Eastern Europe.

70% means also that modern Greeks are still predominantly the same people with the ancient native Population of Greece.
And thus have the legal right to identify first as Greek and claim Greece as their native homeland before everything else,no matter if some of them have more Slavic and others not.

Do you agree at least with this?

[Lavrentis]

Sikeliot, you didn't answer my question but I want to say something:

I didn't say that there is no Slavic input in Greece. There is, for example there are villages in northern Greece that still speak a Slavic language.

And also many Bulgarians and other Slavs were assimilated. I remember and old post of yours when you post a Greek who scored high Slavic yet his grandfather was born in FYROM, indicating direct Slavic ancestry.

What I want to say is that there is Slavic influence in Greece, but it's in northern Greece and only in some certain areas like Florina or the villages near the border with FYROM. And let's not forget that there are around 50.000 Muslim Bulgarians in Greece (Pomaks).

So saying that Greeks are 30% Slavic is really dumb.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Laberia]

What do genetics show? That Greeks have direct Slavic influence?

Greece was overruned by slavs. Later, Byzantines gathered some of them, we don't know exactly how, and settled them in Asia Minor, replacing them with people from Asia Minor and some from Italy. Ironically it's high probabile that some of them returned in Greece as prosfiges.

[Laberia]

Mycenaeans did survive and those are 70% of your ancestors, while Slavs and other people carrying Northeast Euro DNA are the other 30%.

And y-dna shows that subclades of I2 and R1a in Greece match those of Eastern Europe.

70% to me sounds a beautiful tale.

[Lavrentis]

Greece was overruned by slavs. Later, Byzantines gathered some of them, we don't know exactly how, and settled them in Asia Minor, replacing them with people from Asia Minor and some from Italy. Ironically it's high probabile that some of them returned in Greece as prosfiges.

The Byzantines gathered literally all of them, and after settling them in Asia Minor they revolted and that's what the end of them, 200.000 were slaughtered. So all of them.

If Greece was overrun by Slavs then all of Greece would be scoring high Eastern European now, when in reality this happens only in some places in northern Greece like Florina.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sikeliot]

70% means also that modern Greeks are still predominantly the same people with the ancient native Population of Greece.
And thus have the legal right to identify first as Greek and claim Greece as their native homeland before everything else,no matter if some of them have more Slavic and others not.

Do you agree at least with this?

Yes. Greeks are obviously heirs of their ancient past, BUT it should not be ignored they can have substantial (if Mycenaeans are a good proxy for pre-Slavic, then up to 30%) Slavic influence today if not higher in some undersampled regions, and that this can and does impact their phenotype and show up in their genes. This is why, as a whole, mainland Greeks are differentiable from southern Italians, Sicilians, and Cretans in group photos.

I don't deny Greeks descend from the ancients. I do however deny their Slavic influence is minor, inconsequential, and has no impact on their phenotype today.





Sikeliot, you didn't answer my question but I want to say something:

I didn't say that there is no Slavic input in Greece. There is, for example there are villages in northern Greece that still speak a Slavic language.

And also many Bulgarians and other Slavs were assimilated. I remember and old post of yours when you post a Greek who scored high Slavic yet his grandfather was born in FYROM, indicating direct Slavic ancestry.

What I want to say is that there is Slavic influence in Greece, but it's in northern Greece and only in some certain areas like Florina or the villages near the border with FYROM. And let's not forget that there are around 50.000 Muslim Bulgarians in Greece (Pomaks).

So saying that Greeks are 30% Slavic is really dumb.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I see what you are saying, but his result was no different than many other non-Peloponnesian mainlanders I have posted, especially inland ones. I could post all of them again if you wish. The real difference is some people in Attica and then in Laconia/Mani who seem to not only have less Slavic, but more affinity to Sicily or Crete.

[Сербо Макеридов]

Mycenaeans did survive and those are 70% of your ancestors, while Slavs and other people carrying Northeast Euro DNA are the other 30%.

And y-dna shows that subclades of I2 and R1a in Greece match those of Eastern Europe.

What obout Anatolian-Middle Eastern influence in Greeks?

Anatolian Greeks are 30% of population of Greece (source - Lavrentis), and among them is most dominant Anatolian and Middle Eastern genetic?

I ask this because Lavrentis claims that Anatolian Greeks are swarty wogs with alien genetic.

[Laberia]

The Byzantines gathered literally all of them, and after settling them in Asia Minor they revolted and that's what the end of them, 200.000 were slaughtered. So all of them.

If Greece was overrun by Slavs then all of Greece would be scoring high Eastern European now, when in reality this happens only in some places in northern Greece like Florina.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Lavrentis, genetics at this moment can tell you where your ancestors were 20.000 years ago. Your scholars are not credible. I doubt that Byzantines gathered all this armed population. Think how difficult is to menage the refugees today.
The most important scholar of XX century about Greece, who was also a famous philhellene, N.G.L.Hammond, is the author of a book, among many others, entitled "The migration in Greece and adjacent areas". I think the title explains everything. Now, this discussion of Greece is always source of shit storms and i doubt if we can continue a normal discussion here.

[Scholarios]

Slavs settled only in Sklavinies which were segregated communities. After they revolted, the Byzantines kicked them out and settled them in Asia Minor. Then they revolted once again and the Byzantines slaughtered all of them.

slavs settled throughout nearly every inch of greece, albania, moesia, etc. slavs assimilated and their grandchildren became greeks ( or vlachs). no more obstacle to intermixing with local romaioi. we have the ydna age of r1a and i2a1b and it's slavic. we had to listen that myceneans were some kind of balto-slavic chariot-riding scythians who introduced these clades to greece- which we all knew must have been total bullshit. but now we have proof. i expect classical greeks to be more steppe, of course. but without slavs, greece would be significantly less-so. It's time we get over this bizarre complex.

there's not a single hint that slavs were all slaughtered. If they were slaughtered why did the greeks keep using the name Μπελιγκρáδια in Mani until 1928? or Μπελιγρáδι in Messenia? at least they can do is change it to Ασπρόπυργος? or Σκλαβοχώρι in Lakonia and Crete? Or Βελεστινλή in Thessaly named after a damned Slavic god? Slavs survived in Greece until the Civil War...

[Sikeliot]

What obout Anatolian-Middle Eastern influence in Greeks?

Anatolian Greeks are 30% of population of Greece (source - Lavrentis), and among them is most dominant Anatolian and Middle Eastern genetic?

I ask this because Lavrentis claims that Anatolian Greeks are swarty wogs with alien genetic.


Pontic Greeks are, but here is an example of someone fully Istanbul Greek... they are pretty much like a mainlander as it is.

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 22.77
2 West_Asian 19.34
3 Atlantic 14.21
4 West_Med 12.15
5 Baltic 11.26
6 North_Sea 9.29
7 Eastern_Euro 7.41
8 Red_Sea 2.78
9 Oceanian 0.52
10 Amerindian 0.14
11 Siberian 0.14

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek 7.39
2 Central_Greek 8.63
3 Italian_Abruzzo 9.18
4 Greek_Thessaly 9.49
5 Ashkenazi 10.2
6 Bulgarian 10.37
7 East_Sicilian 10.38
8 South_Italian 11.91
9 Romanian 12.5
10 West_Sicilian 12.61
11 Tuscan 13.9
12 Sephardic_Jewish 16.45
13 Serbian 16.49
14 Turkish 16.61
15 Italian_Jewish 16.69
16 Algerian_Jewish 18.11
17 North_Italian 18.73
18 Cyprian 20.1
19 Tunisian_Jewish 20.14
20 Azeri 20.52

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 70.7% Bulgarian + 29.3% Armenian @ 2.64
2 70.7% Bulgarian + 29.3% Georgian_Jewish @ 2.65
3 80.2% Greek + 19.8% Lezgin @ 2.68
4 77.8% Greek + 22.2% Kumyk @ 2.7
5 80.9% Greek + 19.1% Adygei @ 2.72
6 81.5% Greek + 18.5% Chechen @ 2.88
7 82.4% Greek + 17.6% North_Ossetian @ 2.98
8 80.6% Greek + 19.4% Kabardin @ 3.02
9 81.2% Greek + 18.8% Tabassaran @ 3.12
10 70.8% Bulgarian + 29.2% Assyrian @ 3.16
11 83% Greek + 17% Georgian @ 3.21
12 82.5% Greek + 17.5% Ossetian @ 3.22
13 62.3% Bulgarian + 37.7% Turkish @ 3.26
14 81.2% Greek + 18.8% Balkar @ 3.29
15 84.7% Greek + 15.3% Abhkasian @ 3.35
16 66.9% Romanian + 33.1% Georgian_Jewish @ 3.87
17 70.9% Bulgarian + 29.1% Kurdish @ 3.92
18 66.9% Romanian + 33.1% Armenian @ 4
19 66.8% Romanian + 33.2% Assyrian @ 4.02
20 73.8% Bulgarian + 26.2% Kurdish_Jewish @ 4.03



Here is a Cappadoccian Greek, on the other hand. This person is similar to someone who is half Armenian, half Sicilian and is definitely Hellenized West Asian.

# Population Percent
1 East_Med 31.91
2 West_Asian 27.89
3 West_Med 16.39
4 Atlantic 10.58
5 Red_Sea 5.72
6 Eastern_Euro 4.58
7 Baltic 2.77
8 Oceanian 0.17

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Turkish 10.83
2 Cyprian 11.1
3 Lebanese_Muslim 12.95
4 Assyrian 13.82
5 Georgian_Jewish 13.83
6 Armenian 14.01
7 South_Italian 14.1
8 Sephardic_Jewish 14.41
9 Central_Greek 14.85
10 Syrian 15.34
11 Azeri 15.48
12 East_Sicilian 15.58
13 Italian_Jewish 16.07
14 Tunisian_Jewish 16.1
15 Algerian_Jewish 16.54
16 Ashkenazi 16.62
17 Kurdish_Jewish 16.69
18 Iranian_Jewish 16.88
19 Kurdish 16.89
20 Italian_Abruzzo 17.12

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 75.7% Georgian_Jewish + 24.3% Sardinian @ 5.02
2 74.8% Cyprian + 25.2% Balkar @ 5.92
3 74.6% Cyprian + 25.4% Adygei @ 6
4 75.8% Cyprian + 24.2% Ossetian @ 6.02
5 76.6% Cyprian + 23.4% North_Ossetian @ 6.05
6 75% Cyprian + 25% Kabardin @ 6.06
7 77% Cyprian + 23% Chechen @ 6.25
8 66.6% Algerian_Jewish + 33.4% Abhkasian @ 6.28
9 77.1% Cyprian + 22.9% Abhkasian @ 6.43
10 74.9% Cyprian + 25.1% Georgian @ 6.43
11 76.3% Armenian + 23.7% Sardinian @ 6.51
12 64% Algerian_Jewish + 36% Georgian @ 6.57
13 70.4% Sephardic_Jewish + 29.6% Abhkasian @ 6.67
14 72.8% Cyprian + 27.2% Kumyk @ 6.83
15 68% Sephardic_Jewish + 32% Georgian @ 6.95
16 76.9% Cyprian + 23.1% Lezgin @ 6.97
17 77% Assyrian + 23% Sardinian @ 7.02
18 50.6% Georgian_Jewish + 49.4% South_Italian @ 7.16
19 50.2% Armenian + 49.8% South_Italian @ 7.22
20 59.4% Armenian + 40.6% West_Sicilian @ 7.36

[Peterski]

Anyone who has studied Byzantine history knows that the Byzantines slaughtered and expelled the Slavs who invaded Greece and settled them in Asia Minor other massacres followed, since the Slavs were rebellious and the Byzantines didn't like that.

Source?:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?131244-The-Slavs-in-Greece


In the first half of the 15th century, two sources testify that there were still Slavic speaking Slavs in the Peloponnese:

a) Mazaris wrote:

http://www.lithoksou.net/p/ta-%C2%ABanamiks-geni-en-peloponniso%C2%BB-toy-mazari-o-plithysmos-toy-moria-1415-2010

«Εν Πελοποννήσω, ως και αυτός οίδας, ξείνε, οικεί αναμίξ γένη πολιτευόμενα πάμπολλα, ων τον χωρισμόν ευρείν νυν ούτε ράδιον, ούτε κατεπείγον. α δε ταις ακοαίς περιηχείται, ως πάσι δήλα και κορυφαία, τυχγάνει ταύτα. Λακεδαίμονες, Ιταλοί, Πελοποννήσιοι, Σθλαβίνοι, Ιλλυριοί, Αιγύπτιοι και Ιουδαίοι (ουκ ολίγοι δε μέσον τούτων και υποβολιμαίοι), ομού τα τοιαύτα επαριθμούμενα επτά» [Μάζαρις 1831, 174 και Μάζαρις 1860, 239].

"In Peloponnese, as you can see stranger, dwell various mixed ethne mixed among themselves, who's separation is neither easy nor necessary ... "Laconians" (Tzakones), "Italians" ( various western neolatin speakers as Italian, French, Spaniards etc),"Peloponnesians" (non Tsakonian Greek speakers), "Slavenes" (Slavs) "Illyrians" (Albanians), "Egyptians" (gypsies) and "Judaeans" (Jews).

b) The Navigator Laskaris-Kananos made the circumnavigation of western europe (Gibraltar, England, Northern Sea, Baltic Sea). When he reached the city of Lübeck/Ljubice which back then was the frontier between Germanic and Slavic speech he wrote:

Schließlich ist noch als Zeugnis aus dem 15. Jahrhundert für das Fortleben der Slaven am Taygetos eine Stelle aus der Schilderung einer Reise des Laskaris Kananos nach Deutschland und den nordischen Ländern zu erwähnen, deren Entstehung von Vasiljev (Buzeskul-Festschrift S. 397 ff) in die Jahre 1412—1418 gesetzt wird. Der Grieche schildert dort auch die Umgegend von Lübeck und nennt jenes Land Σθλαβουνία. Er fügt dann eine Bemerkung über die Verwandtschaft der lübeckischen Slaven mit den Zygioten im Peloponnes hinzu: Ἀπ᾽ αὐτῆς τῆς ἐπαρχίας ὑπάρχουν οἱ Ζυγιῶται οἱ ἐν Πελοποννήσῳ· ἐπεὶ ἐκεῖσε ὑπάρχουν πλεῖστα χωρία, ἅτινα διαλέγονται τὴν γλῶσσαν τῶν Ζυγιωτῶν. Vgl Vasiljev a. a. 399. Zu dem Namen Ζυγιῶται verweist der russische Historiker auf den Namen Sigo de la Chacoigne für den Taygetos in der französischen Fassung der Chronik vor Morea, welchen er mit griech. Ζυγός = Taygetos gleichseht. Vgl. auch

"From here starts 'Slavunia' (the land of the Slavs), the 'Zygiotes' (inhabitants of Zygòs = Taygetos) must have come from here, because there many villages here that speak the same language with the Zygiotes".

[Sikeliot]

slavs settled throughout nearly every inch of greece, albania, moesia, etc. slavs assimilated and their grandchildren became greeks ( vlachs). no more obstacle to intermixing with local romaioi. we have the ydna age of r1a and i2a1b and it's slavic. we had to listen that myceneans were some kind of balto-slavic chariot-riding scythians who introduced these clades to greece- which we all knew must have been total bullshit. but now we have proof. i expect classical greeks to be more steppe, of course. but without slavs, greece would be significantly less-so. It's time we get over this bizarre complex.

My guess is classical Greeks would have been close to modern day Maniots, as well as, to some extent, Apulians, Syracusans and whatnot. More Steppe than Mycenaeans and less Sardinia shifted, but not like today.

[Lavrentis]

Source?:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?131244-The-Slavs-in-Greece

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Greece

"According to historical documents, the Slavs invaded and settled in parts of Greece beginning in 579 and Byzantium nearly lost control of the entire peninsula during the 580s.[5] However, there is no archaeological evidence indicating Slavic penetration of imperial Byzantine territories before the end of the 6th century. Overall, traces of Slavic culture in Greece are very rare."

"The city of Thessaloniki remained unconquered even after being attacked by the Slavs around 615. The Slavs were eventually defeated, gathered by the Byzantines and placed into segregated communities known as Sclaviniae. During the early 7th century, Constans II made the first mass-expulsions of Slavs from the Greek peninsula to the Balkans and central Asia Minor. Justinian II defeated and destroyed most of the Sclaviniae, and moved as many as 110,000–200,000 Slavs from the Greek peninsula to Bithynia, while he enlisted some 30,000 Slavs in his army."

"The Slavic populations that were placed in these segregated communities were used for military campaigns against the enemies of the Byzantines. In the Peloponnese, more Slavic invaders brought disorder to the western part of the peninsula, while the eastern part remained firmly under Byzantine domination. Empress Irene organised a military campaign which liberated those territories and restored Byzantine rule to the region, but it was not until emperor Nicephorus I's resettlement of some rural areas of Peloponnese with Greek-speakers from southern Italy, that the last trace of Slavic element was eliminated."

"In the mid-7th century, the empire was reorganized into "themes" by the Emperor Constans II, including the Theme of Thrace, the naval Karabisianoi corps in southern Greece and the Aegean islands. The Karabisanoi were later divided by Justinian II into the Theme of Hellas (centred on Corinth) and the Cibyrrhaeotic Theme By this time, the Slavs were no longer a threat to the Byzantines since they had been either defeated numerous times or placed in the Sclaviniae. The Slavic communities in Bithynia were destroyed by the Byzantines after General Leontios lost to the Arabs in the Battle of Sebastopolis in 692 as a result of the Slavs having defected to the Arab side."

[Lavrentis]

Duplicate

[Tauromachos]

Yes. Greeks are obviously heirs of their ancient past, BUT it should not be ignored they can have substantial (if Mycenaeans are a good proxy for pre-Slavic, then up to 30%) Slavic influence today if not higher in some undersampled regions, and that this can and does impact their phenotype and show up in their genes. This is why, as a whole, mainland Greeks are differentiable from southern Italians, Sicilians, and Cretans in group photos.

I don't deny Greeks descend from the ancients. I do however deny their Slavic influence is minor, inconsequential, and has no impact on their phenotype today.


Even if it would be 30%,it is still minor.

For me personally everything below 50% is to be considered minor.
If someone scores 50%+ native Greek it means that he is predominantly Greek and has the right to identify as Greek primarily
and claim Ancient Greek history as the history of his ancestors and his legal heritage,no matter what he looks like.

[Lavrentis]

Lavrentis, genetics at this moment can tell you where your ancestors were 20.000 years ago. Your scholars are not credible. I doubt that Byzantines gathered all this armed population. Think how difficult is to menage the refugees today.
The most important scholar of XX century about Greece, who was also a famous philhellene, N.G.L.Hammond, is the author of a book, among many others, entitled "The migration in Greece and adjacent areas". I think the title explains everything. Now, this discussion of Greece is always source of shit storms and i doubt if we can continue a normal discussion here.

I have provided a source right now in this thread about the Slavic invasion of Greece.

Now, you should provide me a source that says the opposite or you have lost this argument.


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[Sikeliot]

Even if it would be 30%,it is still minor.

For me personally everything below 50% is to be considered minor.
If someone scores more than 50% native Greek it means that he is predominantly Greek and has the right to identify as Greek primarily
and claim Ancient Greek history as the history of his ancestors and his legal heritage,no matter what he looks like.


I don't disagree with you. Greeks are Greek.

However, I do think the Slavic ancestry is relevant when discussing phenotype and genes, such that comments like "mainland Greeks are no different than Rhodians or the Calabrese" should be dismissed as outlandish, and phenotypical influence from Slavs not denied.

[Scholarios]

I have provided a source right now in this thread about the Slavic invasion of Greece.

Now, you should provide me a source that says the opposite or you have lost this argument.


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Laberia is a moron who cannot accept that the same issues which affected Greece, also affected Albania, and basically prove beyond a doubt that Albanians are newcomers to Epirus.

But you have provided no source, only a proof of tired old Slavophobia.

[18.95] «Tαῦτα [τὰ Σκλαβικά ἔθνη] δὲ ὁ ἡμέτερος ἐν θείᾳ τῇ λήξει γενόμενος πατὴρ καὶ Ῥωμαίων αὐτοκράτωρ Βασίλειος τῶν ἀρχαίων ἐθῶν ἔπεισε μεταστῆναι καὶ, γρακῶσας, καὶ ἄρχουσι κατὰ τὸν Ῥωμαϊκό τύπον ὑποτάξας, καὶ βαπτίσματι τιμήσας, τῆς τε δουλείας ἡλευθέρωσε τῶν ἑαυτῶν ἀρχόντων, καὶ στρατεύεσθαι κατὰ τῶν Ῥωμαίοις πολεμούντων ἐθνῶν ἐξεπαίδευσεν, οὕτω πως ἑπιμελῶς περὶ τὰ τοιαύτα διακείμενος, διό καὶ ἀμερίμνους Ῥωμαίους ἐκ τῆς πολλάκις ἀπὸ Σκλάβων γενομένης ἀνταρσίας ἐποίησεν, πολλὰς ὑπ΄ἐκείνων ὀχλήσεις καὶ πολέμους τοῖς πάλαι χρόνοις ὑπομείναντας».

English Translation by George T. Dennis's "Tactica" (page 471):

"Our father, Emperor of the Romans, Basil, now in the divine dwelling, persuaded these peoples [the Slavic tribes] to abandon their ancient ways and, having tought them the greek language,, subjected them to rulers (archontes) according to the Roman model, and having graced them with baptism, he liberated them from slavery to their own rulers and trained them to take part in warfare against those nations warring against the Romans. By these means he very carefully arranged matters for those peoples. As a result, he enabled the Romans to feel relaxed after the frequent uprisings by the Slavs in the past and the many disturbances and wars they had suffered from them in ancient times".

Slavs became Greeks. End of Story.

[Tauromachos]

My guess is classical Greeks would have been close to modern day Maniots, as well as, to some extent, Apulians, Syracusans and whatnot. More Steppe than Mycenaeans and less Sardinia shifted, but not like today.

Wrong,
the Steppe related component was present in Mycanaeans but absent in Minoans.
Minoans on the other side had more influx from Anatolia than Mycaneaens.

This was the only difference between them.

[Lavrentis]

slavs settled throughout nearly every inch of greece, albania, moesia, etc. slavs assimilated and their grandchildren became greeks ( or vlachs). no more obstacle to intermixing with local romaioi. we have the ydna age of r1a and i2a1b and it's slavic. we had to listen that myceneans were some kind of balto-slavic chariot-riding scythians who introduced these clades to greece- which we all knew must have been total bullshit. but now we have proof. i expect classical greeks to be more steppe, of course. but without slavs, greece would be significantly less-so. It's time we get over this bizarre complex.

there's not a single hint that slavs were all slaughtered. If they were slaughtered why did the greeks keep using the name Μπελιγκρáδια in Mani until 1928? or Μπελιγρáδι in Messenia? at least they can do is change it to Ασπρόπυργος? or Σκλαβοχώρι in Lakonia and Crete? Or Βελεστινλή in Thessaly named after a damned Slavic god? Slavs survived in Greece until the Civil War...

I provided my source in this very thread right now.

No one said that there are no Slavic toponyms in Greece.

That doesn't change that Slavic influence in Greece is minimal.

There are no traces of Slavic culture in Greece.

You didn't provide proof, just mumbo jumbo like "Slavs settled in every inch of Greece". Provide some proof about that, prove me wrong.

Slavic influence in Greece comes from assimilated Slavs in northern Greece. That's it.


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[Jana]

Here is very interesting post written in English I discovered on Croatian forum from Thessalian Greek who belives he is of Croatian(Slavic)origin I'd like to share here. He doesn't sound like a charlatan:

''I am a man coming from a mountainous region of central Greece (Thessaly) called Kissavo (the greek state has changed the name to Ossa about 100 years ago, but the locals still call it Kissavo). Kissavo does not mean anything in greek. In croatian it means "rainy place" (kiša + ovo) and it truly is a place with lots of rains all year long. The village of my grandfather was called Retsani (changed by the state about 100 years ago to Metaxohori). In greek it does not mean anything. In croatian it means "small river" (riječni) and there is a small river that passes through the village. My grandfather used some words or phrases that do not mean anything in greek, but have a meaning in croatian. For example, he called the insects "bubnikia". This word has no meaning in greek and comes from croatian word buba. In school you are forced to use the greek words instead of these words, so nowadays it is difficult to find people that still use them or know the meaning. In school you are also taught that there were no Slavs in Greece, that just a few nomad Slavs had come here and then left. I don't know if my grandpa knew the origin of these words and toponyms, but it's for sure he never mentioned anything.

Well, the truth is very different from what is presented in greek history books and this is why most people that have slavic origin here have no idea about it. The truth is that many slavic tribes (Croats and similar tribes to them) came to Greece from 6th century and on and they formed small independent states all over Greece, the so-called "Sklaviniai" or "Sklavinies" (meaning "state of Slavs"). Those Sklavinies lasted for many centuries and were later destroyed by the Byzantines and the Ottomans and the people living there left for the mountains of Greece, where they could live in some kind of free conditions.

Here comes a map, showing the slavic settlements in Greece of 7th century. Note that in many cases the Greeks were united together with those Slavs against the Byzantine Romans (basically Anatolians and other tribes of Asia), because the Slavs were pagans and the Greeks found refuge in the Sklavinies after the genocide against them held by the christians of Byzantine Empire.
The map comes from the book "Byzantium in the Seventh Century: the Transformation of a Culture" by John Haldon.https://s29.postimg.org/6dj7f2kxz/sklaviniai.png

Please don't take my post as attack on Greek ethnicity. It is clear they are of ancient Greek origin, but Slavic admixture is also undeniable.
For example Serbs settled near Thessaloniki according to De Administrando Imperio written by Byzantine Emperor.

[Peterski]

moved as many as 110,000–200,000 Slavs from the Greek peninsula to Bithynia

That number seems very large but it is only 1% of South Slavic population at that time.

Population estimates for year 1000 AD (authors: Łowmiański, Kurnatowska, Piskorski):

East Slavs - ca. 3,5 - 4,5 million people
West Slavs - ca. 1,8 - 2,5 million people
South Slavs - ca. 1,2 - 2,0 million people

Total - ca. 6,5 - 9,0 million people

For 500 AD, Proto-Slavs are usually estimated at between 300 thousand and 1,5 million.

=========================

Population estimates for some other areas in 1000 AD:

Britain & Ireland - ca. 2,5 - 2,7 million
France - ca. 6,5 - 9,0 million
Belgium - ca. 0,4 - 0,6 million
Italy - ca. 5,0 - 7,0 million
Iberia - ca. 4,6 - 9,0 million
Scandinavia - ca. 1,0 - 1,1 million (authors: Maddison, Urlanis)

[Сербо Макеридов]

I don't disagree with you. Greeks are Greek.

However, I do think the Slavic ancestry is relevant when discussing phenotype and genes, such that comments like "mainland Greeks are no different than Rhodians or the Calabrese" should be dismissed as outlandish, and phenotypical influence from Slavs not denied.

I would say that Slavic influence in Greeks on average is around 20%, they have 11,5% R1a, and 9,5% I2a.

www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

[Scholarios]

I provided my source in this very thread right now.

No one said that there are no Slavic toponyms in Greece.

That doesn't change that Slavic influence in Greece is minimal.

There are no traces of Slavic culture in Greece.

You didn't provide proof, just mumbo jumbo like "Slavs settled in every inch of Greece". Provide some proof about that, prove me wrong.

Slavic influence in Greece comes from assimilated Slavs in northern Greece. That's it.


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English Translation by George T. Dennis's "Tactica" (page 471):

"Our father, Emperor of the Romans, Basil, now in the divine dwelling, persuaded these peoples [the Slavic tribes] to abandon their ancient ways and, having tought them the greek language,, subjected them to rulers (archontes) according to the Roman model, and having graced them with baptism, he liberated them from slavery to their own rulers and trained them to take part in warfare against those nations warring against the Romans. By these means he very carefully arranged matters for those peoples. As a result, he enabled the Romans to feel relaxed after the frequent uprisings by the Slavs in the past and the many disturbances and wars they had suffered from them in ancient times".

[Laberia]

Laberia is a moron who cannot accept that the same issues which affected Greece, also affected Albania, and basically prove beyond a doubt that Albanians are newcomers to Epirus.

But you have provided no source, only a proof of tired old Slavophobia.

[18.95] «Tαῦτα [τὰ Σκλαβικά ἔθνη] δὲ ὁ ἡμέτερος ἐν θείᾳ τῇ λήξει γενόμενος πατὴρ καὶ Ῥωμαίων αὐτοκράτωρ Βασίλειος τῶν ἀρχαίων ἐθῶν ἔπεισε μεταστῆναι καὶ, γρακῶσας, καὶ ἄρχουσι κατὰ τὸν Ῥωμαϊκό τύπον ὑποτάξας, καὶ βαπτίσματι τιμήσας, τῆς τε δουλείας ἡλευθέρωσε τῶν ἑαυτῶν ἀρχόντων, καὶ στρατεύεσθαι κατὰ τῶν Ῥωμαίοις πολεμούντων ἐθνῶν ἐξεπαίδευσεν, οὕτω πως ἑπιμελῶς περὶ τὰ τοιαύτα διακείμενος, διό καὶ ἀμερίμνους Ῥωμαίους ἐκ τῆς πολλάκις ἀπὸ Σκλάβων γενομένης ἀνταρσίας ἐποίησεν, πολλὰς ὑπ΄ἐκείνων ὀχλήσεις καὶ πολέμους τοῖς πάλαι χρόνοις ὑπομείναντας».

English Translation by George T. Dennis's "Tactica" (page 471):

"Our father, Emperor of the Romans, Basil, now in the divine dwelling, persuaded these peoples [the Slavic tribes] to abandon their ancient ways and, having tought them the greek language,, subjected them to rulers (archontes) according to the Roman model, and having graced them with baptism, he liberated them from slavery to their own rulers and trained them to take part in warfare against those nations warring against the Romans. By these means he very carefully arranged matters for those peoples. As a result, he enabled the Romans to feel relaxed after the frequent uprisings by the Slavs in the past and the many disturbances and wars they had suffered from them in ancient times".

Slavs became Greeks. End of Story.

You are the most retard individual here in this forum. First of all decide who is your theory about Epir and Albanians. Every time you have try to discuss this topic with me you have fail. I only remember you behaving like an idiot. God damned, be a man, open a thread and show your balls, you cuman retard.

[Lavrentis]

Laberia is a moron who cannot accept that the same issues which affected Greece, also affected Albania, and basically prove beyond a doubt that Albanians are newcomers to Epirus.

But you have provided no source, only a proof of tired old Slavophobia.

[18.95] «Tαῦτα [τὰ Σκλαβικά ἔθνη] δὲ ὁ ἡμέτερος ἐν θείᾳ τῇ λήξει γενόμενος πατὴρ καὶ Ῥωμαίων αὐτοκράτωρ Βασίλειος τῶν ἀρχαίων ἐθῶν ἔπεισε μεταστῆναι καὶ, γρακῶσας, καὶ ἄρχουσι κατὰ τὸν Ῥωμαϊκό τύπον ὑποτάξας, καὶ βαπτίσματι τιμήσας, τῆς τε δουλείας ἡλευθέρωσε τῶν ἑαυτῶν ἀρχόντων, καὶ στρατεύεσθαι κατὰ τῶν Ῥωμαίοις πολεμούντων ἐθνῶν ἐξεπαίδευσεν, οὕτω πως ἑπιμελῶς περὶ τὰ τοιαύτα διακείμενος, διό καὶ ἀμερίμνους Ῥωμαίους ἐκ τῆς πολλάκις ἀπὸ Σκλάβων γενομένης ἀνταρσίας ἐποίησεν, πολλὰς ὑπ΄ἐκείνων ὀχλήσεις καὶ πολέμους τοῖς πάλαι χρόνοις ὑπομείναντας».

English Translation by George T. Dennis's "Tactica" (page 471):

"Our father, Emperor of the Romans, Basil, now in the divine dwelling, persuaded these peoples [the Slavic tribes] to abandon their ancient ways and, having tought them the greek language,, subjected them to rulers (archontes) according to the Roman model, and having graced them with baptism, he liberated them from slavery to their own rulers and trained them to take part in warfare against those nations warring against the Romans. By these means he very carefully arranged matters for those peoples. As a result, he enabled the Romans to feel relaxed after the frequent uprisings by the Slavs in the past and the many disturbances and wars they had suffered from them in ancient times".

Slavs became Greeks. End of Story.

I provided a source, you ignore it because it doesn't fit your trolling agenda since it proves you terribly wrong.

Where did all those baptisms and assimilations happened? Did they happen in Greece? Probably not, they happened in Byzantine territory though, most likely Bulgaria.


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[nightrider+]

Wrong,
the Steppe related component was present in Mycanaeans but absent in Minoans.
Minoans on the other side had more influx from Anatolia than Mycaneaens.

This was the only difference between them.

There's not even enough evidence yet that it was Steppe related, just something Euro-HG related, the origin is unknown.
And Mycenaeans were not Sardinian shifted, something that Sikeliot seems unable to understand.

[Lavrentis]

That number seems very large but it is only 1% of South Slavic population at that time.

Population estimates for year 1000 AD (authors: Łowmiański, Kurnatowska, Piskorski):

East Slavs - ca. 3,5 - 4,5 million people
West Slavs - ca. 1,8 - 2,5 million people
South Slavs - ca. 1,2 - 2,0 million people

Total - ca. 6,5 - 9,0 million people

For 500 AD, Proto-Slavs are usually estimated at between 300 thousand and 1,5 million.

=========================

Population estimates for some other areas in 1000 AD:

Britain & Ireland - ca. 2,5 - 2,7 million
France - ca. 6,5 - 9,0 million
Belgium - ca. 0,4 - 0,6 million
Italy - ca. 5,0 - 7,0 million
Iberia - ca. 4,6 - 9,0 million
Scandinavia - ca. 1,0 - 1,1 million (Maddison, Urlanis)

My dear Polish pan-Slavist pseudo-historian, the fact that from all my post you cherry-pick such a small part proves one thing: that you lost this argument that you're trying to make, that Greeks are Slavicized. My post provided clear proof that the Slavic traces in Greece were exterminated.

There is no direct number of the Slavs who invaded Greece, of course being a pan-Slavist you will try to convince me that the Slavs who invaded Greece were 1 billion. As if 200.000 aren't enough.


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[Scholarios]

I provided a source, you ignore it because it doesn't fit your trolling agenda since it proves you terribly wrong.

Where did all those baptisms and assimilations happened? Did they happen in Greece? Probably not, they happened in Byzantine territory though, most likely Bulgaria.


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Lavrentis, it appears you have a special type of mental illness which is impossible to penetrate. (much like Hellenas, Raine, Laberia, etc)

Even our great Paparigopoulos, organizer and chronicler of modern Greek identity admitted this; Greeks absorbed Slavs.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/CBr5urLaL7LaAMrKWYwd32Pvn7OL087ByEeVdujSoQ43QCQzT-VKl7ueSAHYAnI6_FogAukzIs7tt6EKTwmHsqDmPE560fUWPz3y lkXystz3_oI8qMxtmm79IgBdtoJLoAXiNEOpQW8WezwS-zM49-mZeh0wdpTc3vJ0bx_ILnsWohUTxo1LwylwmgOUUsRG7Sic0GQQ VwgZuOzsmrDS1ro77n6wh0HGlxnfqF6X_VR8mgLQVcY5dDGf0s 0TaG9JyUS_bLTR9vgscNOy7lzLFYvpB1e6w5GDF46WuwnHSypP csRBallMg5X02FjuR3EI0LtzTjEX_wxotAPYHd_oCl9bLS_b7U VEbGO4ungDqAGBhJ5nP2QQuZ7cJtcbQtXyHKBA29NTEu2HBLmh I9wxg1X5lAkJbBVT-LnYCyHhhtElpOmzLjIX5LaoLlnk9_vUZ5YR_pc3ZSUlNDw5cUL jY6YN56MsAq6U3Bq6khPIDqmmUmjHySOhiYjDGedALdtJHvWQL nxfdYGTLWRdSYEd_aNrIOjVeO6HkC8kzjiej38=w565-h755-no

The above poster explained already that according to Byzantine Writers, there were Slavs still deep in the Morea in the 15th Century even!

Now Question for you: Did you or did you not see the results of Mycenaean Greeks being 20-30% less Northeastern than Modern Greeks? Can you explain to me, in your own words, without wikipedia, how this may have happened?



There's not even enough evidence yet that it was Steppe related, just something Euro-HG related, the origin is unknown.
And Mycenaeans were not Sardinian shifted, something that Sikeliot seems unable to understand.

Hmm, we can all agree that Sikeliot is irrational when it comes to this topic and best to avoid what he says on it for the most part.

However, the calculator ancestry results certainly looked Sardinian to me. I mean, half Sardinian, half Modern-Greek is what it looked like. Except that one later guy from Crete, he was very weird. (maybe bad results?)

[Lavrentis]

Lavrentis, it appears you have a special type of mental illness which is impossible to penetrate. (much like Hellenas, Raine, Laberia, etc)

Even our great Paparigopoulos, organizer and chronicler of modern Greek identity admitted this; Greeks absorbed Slavs.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/CBr5urLaL7LaAMrKWYwd32Pvn7OL087ByEeVdujSoQ43QCQzT-VKl7ueSAHYAnI6_FogAukzIs7tt6EKTwmHsqDmPE560fUWPz3y lkXystz3_oI8qMxtmm79IgBdtoJLoAXiNEOpQW8WezwS-zM49-mZeh0wdpTc3vJ0bx_ILnsWohUTxo1LwylwmgOUUsRG7Sic0GQQ VwgZuOzsmrDS1ro77n6wh0HGlxnfqF6X_VR8mgLQVcY5dDGf0s 0TaG9JyUS_bLTR9vgscNOy7lzLFYvpB1e6w5GDF46WuwnHSypP csRBallMg5X02FjuR3EI0LtzTjEX_wxotAPYHd_oCl9bLS_b7U VEbGO4ungDqAGBhJ5nP2QQuZ7cJtcbQtXyHKBA29NTEu2HBLmh I9wxg1X5lAkJbBVT-LnYCyHhhtElpOmzLjIX5LaoLlnk9_vUZ5YR_pc3ZSUlNDw5cUL jY6YN56MsAq6U3Bq6khPIDqmmUmjHySOhiYjDGedALdtJHvWQL nxfdYGTLWRdSYEd_aNrIOjVeO6HkC8kzjiej38=w565-h755-no

The above poster explained already that according to Byzantine Writers, there were Slavs still deep in the Morea in the 15th Century even!

Now Question for you: Did you or did you not see the results of Mycenaean Greeks being 20-30% less Northeastern than Modern Greeks? Can you explain to me, in your own words, without wikipedia, how this may have happened?

But did I not provide a source saying that the Slavs of all of Greece and Peloponnese included were kicked out? And these areas were settled by Greek-speaking south Italians? That's a fact, and you can't do nothing about it. The Slavs, being assimilated or not, were eventually kicked out.

And to answer your new question, read my post. Since some people here claim that northern influence in Greece is Slavic, I can easily claim that it's Germanic or Celtic.

And it depends of who is tested. If you test someone from Florina he will come up more North-Eastern than the Myceaneans. But if you test an islander or someone from Peloponnese, there will be no difference.


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[nightrider+]

Hmm, we can all agree that Sikeliot is irrational when it comes to this topic and best to avoid what he says on it for the most part.

However, the calculator ancestry results certainly looked Sardinian to me. I mean, half Sardinian, half Modern-Greek is what it looked like. Except that one later guy from Crete, he was very weird. (maybe bad results?)

It appears so on gedmatch because Sardinians are the only modern proxy for Neolithic farmers. However calling Minoans and Myceneans Sardinian shifted is a misconception. They were basically Anatolian/Greek Neolithic farmers with a shit-ton of Chalcolithic/Bronze Age Anatolian/Caucasian input (and some EHG for Myceneans). They were pretty far from Sardinians. If anything Sardinians are shifted towards the most important ancestors of Mycenaeans (and Minoans).

[Lavrentis]

English Translation by George T. Dennis's "Tactica" (page 471):

"Our father, Emperor of the Romans, Basil, now in the divine dwelling, persuaded these peoples [the Slavic tribes] to abandon their ancient ways and, having tought them the greek language,, subjected them to rulers (archontes) according to the Roman model, and having graced them with baptism, he liberated them from slavery to their own rulers and trained them to take part in warfare against those nations warring against the Romans. By these means he very carefully arranged matters for those peoples. As a result, he enabled the Romans to feel relaxed after the frequent uprisings by the Slavs in the past and the many disturbances and wars they had suffered from them in ancient times".

Did your post provided us some information about the location of where these assimilations happened? They could have happened anywhere, in all kinds of Byzantine territory, such as Bulgaria or Asia Minor.


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[Jana]

And to answer your new question, read my post. Since some people here claim that northern influence in Greece is Slavic, I can easily claim that it's Germanic or Celtic.

There is very little Germanic or Celtic YDNA in Greeks, but Slavic subclades of R1a/I2a make 15%-20% precent ot total lineages on average.
R1b is Greece is largerly of native type (L23).

[Scholarios]

It appears so on gedmatch because Sardinians are the only modern proxy for Neolithic farmers. However calling Minoans and Myceneans Sardinian shifted is a misconception. They were basically Anatolian/Greek Neolithic farmers with a shit-ton of Chalcolithic/Bronze Age Anatolian/Caucasian input (and some EHG for Myceneans). They were pretty far from Sardinians. If anything Sardinians are shifted towards the most important ancestors of Mycenaeans (and Minoans).

Ok, well, I see your point. Despite how population genetics is treated on here, it is still a very relative field. But does it not imply there is something Sardinians have which is closer to what these elite Bronze Age Greeks had (and which modern Greeks lack or have much less of).



But did I not provide a source saying that the Slavs of all of Greece and Peloponnese included were kicked out? And these areas were settled by Greek-speaking south Italians? That's a fact, and you can't do nothing about it. The Slavs, being assimilated or not, were eventually kicked out.

Nope, you posted some wikipedia vague bullshit. We can easily prove that not all were kicked out, as we can see from the last post that they were in the Morea in the 15th Century.


And to answer your new question, read my post. Since some people here claim that northern influence in Greece is Slavic, I can easily claim that it's Germanic or Celtic.


no ydna clades for germanics or celts in Greece. Or very very few. like less than 4%. Slavic ydna is like 25-30% maybe. What is modern Greeks obsession with being cucked by germanics and celts? it is worse than albanian bootlicking shit.


And it depends of who is tested. If you test someone from Florina he will come up more North-Eastern than the Myceaneans. But if you test an islander or someone from Peloponnese, there will be no difference.


a Maniote from the deepest part of the Peloponnese will be more northern than the Myceneans, unless maybe he has all Cretan ancestors.

[Lavrentis]

There is very little Germanic or Celtic YDNA in Greeks, but Slavic subclades of R1a/I2a make 15%-20% precent ot total lineages on average.
R1b is Greece is largerly of native type (L23).

And why don't all Greeks score that?

Why is that the people who score Slavic markers are from places with clear Slavic past, like Florina?

I have already said that there is Slavic influence in northern Greece. But to claim that Greeks are Slavicized is wrong.




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[Peterski]

My dear Polish pan-Slavist pseudo-historian

I'm not pan-Slavist and not a pseudo-historian. I'm just objective and work with factual data.

For example all Slavs share common genetic signatures, as you can see here:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?217858-Modeling-Slavs-as-mixtures-of-gt-100-ancients&p=4568647&viewfull=1#post4568647

This is also confirmed by high IBD segment sharing rates between Slavic populations (Greeks also have elevated IBD sharing with Slavs, which means that they have Slavic admixture).

On a Polish forum we have a thread about "Paleodemography of Early Slavs", which shows that RNI (rate of natural increase) of Early Slavs could easily be +4 or even +5 per 1000 per year (so Slavic population could be increasing fast between 500 AD and 1000 AD):

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=148241&st=0

With initial population of 300 thousand (the lowest estimate for 500 AD) and annual RNI +5 per 1000 (growth rate 0.005), Slavs could naturally increase from that number to 3,65 million in 1000 AD:

http://www.metamorphosisalpha.com/ias/population.php

Add to this another 3,65 million of descendants of assimilated (Slavicized) population.

And you get 7,3 million in year 1000 AD, including 50% Slavic and 50% Slavicized.

==================

Some simulations here:

(fertility) child survival rate / potential fecundity = annual growth if generation is 25 years (30 years)

Simulations for fertility 6-8, before-adulthood mortality 40-60% and potential fecundity 0.5-0.7:

TFR (fertility) 6.0:

0.6 / 0.5 > -4.0(-3.3)
0.6 /0.6 > +3.2(+2.7)
0.6 / 0.7 > +10.4(+8.7)
0.5 / 0.5 > -10(-8.3)
0.5 /0.6 > -4.0(-3.3)
0.5 / 0.7 > +2.0(+1.7)
0.4 / 0.5 > -16.0(-13.3)
0.4 /0.6 > -11.2(-9.3)
0.4 / 0.7 > -6.4(-5.3)

Fertility 6.5:

0.6 / 0.5 > -1.0(-0.8)
0.6 / 0.6 > +6.8(+5.7)
0.6 / 0.7 > +14.6(+12.2)
0.5 / 0.5 > -7.5(-6.3)
0.5 / 0.6 > -1.0(-0.8)
0.5 / 0.7 > +5.5(+4.6)
0.4 / 0.5 > -14.0(-11.6)
0.4 / 0.6 > -8.8(-7.3)
0.4 / 0.7 > -3.6(-3.0)

Fertility 7.0:

0.6 / 0.5 > +2.0(+1.7)
0.6 / 0.6 > +10.4(+8.7)
0.6 / 0.7 > +18.8(+15.7)
0.5 / 0.5 > -5.0(-4.2)
0.5 / 0.6 > -4.0(-3.3)
0.5 / 0.7 > +9.0(+7.5)
0.4 / 0.5 > -12.0(-10.0)
0.4 / 0.6 > -6.4(-5.3)
0.4 / 0.7 > -0.8(-0.7)

Fertility 7.5:

0.6 / 0.5 > +5.0(+4.2)
0.6 / 0.6 > +14.0(+11.7)
0.6 / 0.7 > +23.0(+19.2)
0.5 / 0.5 > -2.5(-2.1)
0.5 / 0.6 > +5.0(+4.2)
0.5 / 0.7 > +12.5(+10.4)
0.4 / 0.5 > -10.0(-8.3)
0.4 / 0.6 > -4.0(-3.3)
0.4 / 0.7 > +2.0(+1.7)

Fertility 8.0:

0.6 / 0.5 > +8.0(+6.7)
0.6 / 0.6 > +17.6(+14.7)
0.6 / 0.7 > +27.2(+22.7)
0.5 / 0.5 > 0.0(0.0)
0.5 / 0.6 > +8.0(+6.7)
0.5 / 0.7 > +16.0(+13.3)
0.4 / 0.5 > -8.0(-6.7)
0.4 / 0.6 > -1.6 (-1.3)
0.4 / 0.7 > +4.8(+4.0)

Fertility rates such as 7 look high, but even today some countries have such high total fertility rates:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/Countriesbyfertilityrate.svg

And in the 1950s:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/8/86/Total_Fertility_Rate%2C_1950_-_2100%2C_World_Population_Prospects_2015%2C_United _Nations.gif

For comparison rates of natural increase of American population in 1790-1980 (of course in Early Medieval reality, with high mortality rates of children, such high RNIs were impossible to achieve):

http://www.nber.org/papers/h0056

http://www.nber.org/papers/h0056.pdf

http://s14.postimg.org/75db485r5/RNI_USA.png

The idea that America is a nation of immigrants is not entirely correct. A lot of Americans are descendants of colonial stock Americans, who were simply breeding like rabbits (as this data shows):

https://s2.postimg.org/q2udff2q1/USA_Pop_Growth.png

https://s2.postimg.org/q2udff2q1/USA_Pop_Growth.png

[Peterski]

Other examples of populations expanding rapidly due to breeding like rabbits:

1) Afrikaners (Boers)

2) French-Canadians

3) Ashkenazi Jews

These are more recent than Slavic expansion. But also more extreme cases.

[nightrider+]

Ok, well, I see your point. Despite how population genetics is treated on here, it is still a very relative field. But does it not imply there is something Sardinians have which is closer to what these elite Bronze Age Greeks had (and which modern Greeks lack or have much less of).

Sardinians have more Neolithic ancestry than anyone in modern Europe, that's a given. They also have a strong WHG affinity that Minoans,Mycenaeans and Greek Neolithics lacked.
Btw, I'm nitpicking now but "elite" should be omitted from your post. Only one Mycenaean was elite and he didn't differ genetically from the others.

[Trilecce]

So lately this Forum has a dilemma: is the Northerh influence in Greeks Indo-European or Slavic?

1) Why not from Celts? Celtic invading tribes had even reached Peloponnese at one point.

2) Why don't they claim that is Germanic? For example, northern Greece was overrun by Germanic tribes, at one point they even reached Athens.

3) Anyone who has studied Byzantine history knows that the Byzantines slaughtered and expelled the Slavs who invaded Greece and settled them in Asia Minor other massacres followed, since the Slavs were rebellious and the Byzantines didn't like that.

But in my opinion, northern influence in Greece is a result of Indo-Europeans. I don't think that Celts and Germanics left many genetic traces in Greece, and as I said previously, the Byzantines eventually expelled the invading Slavs.

Discuss.

Slavs are indo-europeans, but i certainly get what you mean. Goths all the way from Sweden raided byzantine settlements in the east and arab settlements in the west. Stashes of coins from Iberian arabs and roman byzantines have been found in Sweden from year 800 AD, telling us that goths who went down to raid us even got back to their homeland with their loot. And whos to say that they did not leave their seed.

We albanians have some of their seed who are still visibly scandinavian to this very day.

Like this for example...
https://g.acdn.no/obscura/API/dynamic/r1/escenic/tr_1080_720_l_f/0000/archive/05346/3252612815_5346315a.jpg?chk=D11AB8

https://g.acdn.no/obscura/API/dynamic/r1/escenic/tr_1080_720_l_f/0000/archive/05346/3519405320_5346314a.jpg?chk=2C49E2

http://jbl.no/bilder/nyheter/nyhetbig/47624.jpg

This is the albo...
https://g.acdn.no/obscura/API/dynamic/r1/ece5/tr_1080_608_l_f/0000/moss/2016/7/2/21/da48c96b-5e9b-48b6-a49a-70fa2ab63eec_v-i-da48c96b-5e9b-48b6-a49a-70fa2ab63eec.jpg?chk=6F9491

Its impossible to see who is norwegian and who is albanian, if you dont already know beforehand.

[Scholarios]

Sardinians have more Neolithic ancestry than anyone in modern Europe, that's a given. They also have a strong WHG affinity that Minoans,Myceneans and Greek Neolithics lacked.
Btw, I'm nitpicking now but "elite" should be omitted from your post. Only one Mycenean was elite and he didn't differ genetically from the others.

we need more complete calculators and more ancient dna, to be sure.

and i agree about them not differing, but i thought you wrote something about "leaders" and just followed suit thinking we were going somewhere with that.

[Sikeliot]

What people also forget is Mycenaeans may have been more southern than modern Greeks, but people like Crete, Rhodes, Sicily, Calabria are not unchanged either. Mycenaeans were less Levant shifted than any of these.

Also about Slavic in Greeks, it is not just northern Greeks who seem to come up with those sorts of results. Really it is everyone except extreme far southern Peloponnesians.

[Сербо Макеридов]

And why don't all Greeks score that?

Why is that the people who score Slavic markers are from places with clear Slavic past, like Florina?

I have already said that there is Slavic influence in northern Greece. But to claim that Greeks are Slavicized is wrong.




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https://youtu.be/fZ3DuimXjP0

https://youtu.be/Mp4dRknATe0

[nightrider+]

What people also forget is Mycenaeans may have been more southern than modern Greeks, but people like Crete, Rhodes, Sicily, Calabria are not unchanged either. Mycenaeans were less Levant shifted than any of these.

Also about Slavic in Greeks, it is not just northern Greeks who seem to come up with those sorts of results. Really it is everyone except extreme far southern Peloponnesians.

Because Rhodians for example don't score any EHG? :rolleyes:

[Sikeliot]

Because Rhodians for example don't score any EHG? :rolleyes:

Rhodians are still Greek and mostly Mycenaean I am sure but there is additional West Asian, too. I am unsure why there is a desire to minimize the differences between Greeks when the difference between a Thracian and Rhodian is like the difference between a Venetian and a Calabrese.

[nightrider+]

Rhodians are still Greek and mostly Mycenaean I am sure but there is additional West Asian, too. I am unsure why there is a desire to minimize the differences between Greeks when the difference between a Thracian and Rhodian is like the difference between a Venetian and a Calabrese.

I'm not trying to minimize anything but since you talked about Slavic in Greece, I'm pointing out that even Aegean islanders have more HG ancestry than Minoans (and probably even Mycenaeans).

[Laberia]

And why don't all Greeks score that?

Why is that the people who score Slavic markers are from places with clear Slavic past, like Florina?

I have already said that there is Slavic influence in northern Greece. But to claim that Greeks are Slavicized is wrong.




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Lavrentis, read this article of Wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Morea
Read the movement of population in Morea, Peloponnesus, and tell me how can you pretend to make a genetic study today with the intention to prove that there was not an slavic invasion and settlement in Peloponnese and as a consequence there was not the replacement of this slavic population with people from Asia Minor, because this was the conclusion of the last genetic study about Greek Peloponnese.

[Thanas Django]

If the Balkans were a united federation for mutual benefit, they would thrive and dominate Europe. You are too obsessed with your xenophobia though.

Yes, it's all my personal fault.

[Laberia]

https://youtu.be/fZ3DuimXjP0

https://youtu.be/Mp4dRknATe0

And what's the point here? All this are servs?

[Sikeliot]

It is also worth noting modern day Peloponnesians, let alone Sicilians or Cretans, are more Levant-shifted than Mycenaeans were. In addition to having more North Euro influence.


Peloponnesian:
# Population Percent
1 CHG_EEF 34.27
2 ANATOLIA_NEOLITHIC 22.98
3 NATUFIAN 14.23
4 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 14.16
5 EHG 5.82
6 SHG_WHG 5.25
7 SIBERIAN 1.52
8 ANCESTRAL_INDIAN 0.71
9 KARITIANA 0.47
10 PAPUAN 0.3
11 SUB_SAHARAN 0.29

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 2.92
2 Greek 5.37
3 Italian_South 5.95
4 Jew_Ashkenazi 6.29
5 Albanian 7.73
6 Jew_Moroccan 11.69
7 Turkish_Istanbul 12.62
8 Bulgarian 12.89
9 Turkish 13.12
10 Cypriot 14.22
11 Turkish_Balekesir 15.38
12 Romanian 16.11
13 Turkish_Aydin 16.7
14 Jew_Tunisian 16.93
15 Turkish_Adana 17.13
16 Jew_Libyan 17.28
17 Turkish_Kayseri 17.67
18 Lebanese 20.44
19 Turkish_Trabzon 20.74
20 Balkar 21.41

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 89.1% Italian_South + 10.9% Anatolia_ChL @ 2
2 65.4% Albanian + 34.6% Cypriot @ 2.12
3 96% Sicilian + 4% Armenia_MLBA @ 2.42
4 96.1% Sicilian + 3.9% Armenia_ChL @ 2.47
5 97% Sicilian + 3% Anatolia_ChL @ 2.56
6 97.8% Sicilian + 2.2% Iran_ChL @ 2.58
7 97.2% Sicilian + 2.8% Iran_recent @ 2.6
8 92.5% Sicilian + 7.5% Turkish_Balekesir @ 2.65
9 98.4% Sicilian + 1.6% Anatolia_N @ 2.67
10 98.3% Sicilian + 1.7% Europe_EN @ 2.69
11 94.9% Sicilian + 5.1% Balkar @ 2.69
12 98.8% Sicilian + 1.2% Iran_LN @ 2.71
13 98.8% Sicilian + 1.2% Iran_N @ 2.71
14 82% Sicilian + 18% Greek @ 2.74
15 95.4% Sicilian + 4.6% Turkish_Trabzon @ 2.75
16 96.5% Sicilian + 3.5% Abkhasian @ 2.75
17 96.2% Sicilian + 3.8% Georgian @ 2.75
18 92.9% Sicilian + 7.1% Turkish @ 2.75
19 94.5% Sicilian + 5.5% Turkish_Aydin @ 2.76
20 92.8% Sicilian + 7.2% Turkish_Istanbul @ 2.76


Sicilian, Palermo province:
# Population Percent
1 CHG_EEF 33.37
2 ANATOLIA_NEOLITHIC 19.25
3 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 18.63
4 NATUFIAN 17.2
5 EHG 5.18
6 SHG_WHG 4.2
7 SUB_SAHARAN 1.35
8 KARITIANA 0.62
9 POLAR 0.11
10 SIBERIAN 0.08

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Jew_Ashkenazi 5.36
2 Sicilian 6.39
3 Italian_South 7.86
4 Jew_Moroccan 8.4
5 Greek 9.46
6 Cypriot 9.71
7 Turkish_Istanbul 9.73
8 Turkish 10.64
9 Turkish_Adana 12.09
10 Albanian 12.68
11 Turkish_Kayseri 12.96
12 Jew_Tunisian 13.77
13 Turkish_Balekesir 13.82
14 Turkish_Aydin 14.28
15 Jew_Libyan 14.46
16 Lebanese 15.28
17 Turkish_Trabzon 15.8
18 Armenian 16.86
19 Druze 16.97
20 Bulgarian 17.02

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 73.1% Sicilian + 26.9% Armenian @ 1.69
2 57.4% Albanian + 42.6% Druze @ 1.99
3 64.6% Greek + 35.4% Druze @ 2.05
4 78.5% Cypriot + 21.5% Icelandic @ 2.1
5 78.3% Cypriot + 21.7% Norwegian @ 2.11
6 72.4% Cypriot + 27.6% Croatian @ 2.15
7 76.6% Sicilian + 23.4% Assyrian @ 2.18
8 76.7% Cypriot + 23.3% Czech @ 2.2
9 76.5% Cypriot + 23.5% English @ 2.21
10 74.2% Cypriot + 25.8% Hungarian @ 2.23
11 77.1% Cypriot + 22.9% Ukrainian @ 2.24
12 76.8% Sicilian + 23.2% Jew_Iranian @ 2.3
13 76.7% Cypriot + 23.3% Scottish @ 2.34
14 62.2% Greek + 37.8% Lebanese @ 2.34
15 67.7% Cypriot + 32.3% Romanian @ 2.36
16 72.4% Sicilian + 27.6% Turkish_Trabzon @ 2.36
17 67.9% Greek + 32.1% Jew_iraqi @ 2.39
18 64.2% Cypriot + 35.8% Bulgarian @ 2.41
19 60.9% Albanian + 39.1% Jew_iraqi @ 2.41
20 73.8% Cypriot + 26.2% French @ 2.51



Laconia, southern Peloponnese:
# Population Percent
1 CHG_EEF 32.2
2 ANATOLIA_NEOLITHIC 20.73
3 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 14.92
4 NATUFIAN 12.12
5 EHG 9.72
6 SHG_WHG 6.63
7 SIBERIAN 2.04
8 SUB_SAHARAN 0.69
9 SE_ASIAN 0.61
10 ANCESTRAL_INDIAN 0.28
11 KARITIANA 0.05

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Greek 6.25
2 Sicilian 6.33
3 Albanian 8.09
4 Jew_Ashkenazi 8.72
5 Italian_South 9.71
6 Turkish_Istanbul 11.04
7 Turkish 11.41
8 Bulgarian 11.52
9 Turkish_Balekesir 13.75
10 Jew_Moroccan 13.85
11 Romanian 14.95
12 Turkish_Aydin 15.3
13 Cypriot 16.33
14 Turkish_Adana 16.69
15 Turkish_Kayseri 16.96
16 Balkar 18.96
17 Jew_Tunisian 19.24
18 Jew_Libyan 19.44
19 Kumyk 19.85
20 Croatian 20.11

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 80.7% Italian_South + 19.3% Steppe_IA @ 2.55
2 87.5% Sicilian + 12.5% Steppe_IA @ 2.92
3 87.6% Greek + 12.4% Armenia_ChL @ 3.55
4 88.6% Greek + 11.4% Steppe_IA @ 3.7
5 86.3% Albanian + 13.7% Iran_recent @ 3.84
6 88.2% Greek + 11.8% Armenia_MLBA @ 3.86
7 70.4% Albanian + 29.6% Turkish_Kayseri @ 4.2
8 90.7% Greek + 9.3% Iran_recent @ 4.23
9 94.6% Sicilian + 5.4% Steppe_Eneolithic @ 4.28
10 80.8% Albanian + 19.2% Iranian_Lori @ 4.29
11 60.7% Albanian + 39.3% Turkish @ 4.31
12 79.7% Albanian + 20.3% Iranian @ 4.34
13 95.1% Sicilian + 4.9% Steppe_EMBA @ 4.37
14 76.3% Albanian + 23.7% Azeri @ 4.41
15 82.2% Albanian + 17.8% Kurd_C @ 4.42
16 78.8% Albanian + 21.2% Jew_Iranian @ 4.46
17 70.4% Albanian + 29.6% Turkish_Adana @ 4.46
18 95.4% Sicilian + 4.6% EHG @ 4.46
19 70.3% Bulgarian + 29.7% Jew_iraqi @ 4.48
20 86.7% Greek + 13.3% Turkmen @ 4.49


Mycenaean:
# Population Percent
1 ANATOLIA_NEOLITHIC 37.36
2 CHG_EEF 29.52
3 NATUFIAN 13.73
4 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 10.07
5 EHG 6.29
6 SHG_WHG 2.41
7 PAPUAN 0.49
8 SE_ASIAN 0.13

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 16.17
2 Sardinian 16.3
3 Albanian 17.92
4 Greek 18.36
5 Italian_South 19.33
6 Jew_Ashkenazi 19.91
7 Jew_Moroccan 20.15
8 Cypriot 21.74
9 Jew_Tunisian 22.67
10 Jew_Libyan 22.86
11 Bulgarian 22.88
12 Stuttgart 24.6
13 Turkish 25.41
14 Turkish_Istanbul 25.74
15 Romanian 26
16 Turkish_Balekesir 26.91
17 Lebanese 27.89
18 Turkish_Aydin 28.15
19 Turkish_Adana 28.31
20 Turkish_Kayseri 28.41

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79.6% Sicilian + 20.4% Anatolia_N @ 3.92
2 76% Jew_Ashkenazi + 24% Anatolia_N @ 4.7
3 77.2% Sicilian + 22.8% Europe_EN @ 4.85
4 76.6% Italian_South + 23.4% Anatolia_N @ 4.97
5 61% Sicilian + 39% Stuttgart @ 5
6 60.7% Stuttgart + 39.3% Chechen @ 5.18
7 51.2% Stuttgart + 48.8% Turkish_Istanbul @ 5.35
8 58.9% Stuttgart + 41.1% Kumyk @ 5.41
9 73.2% Jew_Ashkenazi + 26.8% Europe_EN @ 5.42
10 62% Stuttgart + 38% Lezgin @ 5.42
11 55.6% Jew_Ashkenazi + 44.4% Stuttgart @ 5.63
12 77.8% Greek + 22.2% Anatolia_N @ 5.76
13 73.9% Italian_South + 26.1% Europe_EN @ 5.84
14 59.4% Stuttgart + 40.6% Adygei @ 5.99
15 53.7% Stuttgart + 46.3% Turkish_Adana @ 6.07
16 50.9% Stuttgart + 49.1% Turkish @ 6.12
17 53.8% Stuttgart + 46.2% Turkish_Kayseri @ 6.55
18 58.1% Greek + 41.9% Stuttgart @ 6.67
19 78.6% Albanian + 21.4% Anatolia_N @ 6.69
20 58% Stuttgart + 42% Balkar @ 6.7

[Jana]

And why don't all Greeks score that?
Why is that the people who score Slavic markers are from places with clear Slavic past, like Florina?
I have already said that there is Slavic influence in northern Greece. But to claim that Greeks are Slavicized is wrong.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Slavicized would mean they were assimilated by Slavs which is obviously not case here.
YDNA average is made for entire country, according to Eupedia datasheet R1a/I2a is over 30%in Northern Greece but only bit over 10%% in Aegan islands/Crete.

So there is a regional diffferences.

[Сербо Макеридов]

Slavs are native in Aegean, Greeks come to Aegean in year 1924 from Anatolia.

This is real Macedonian language from Aegean Macedonia.

https://youtu.be/bXklyRg0h-Q

Song from Aegean Macedonia

https://youtu.be/k7ZAfbaSJtk

[Lavrentis]

I defeated so many people by providing a single source.

They claim that Greeks are Slavicized when there are no Slavic cultural traits in Greece, Slavic loanwords are inexistent (except specific places in northern Greece).

Has anyone of you ever wondered why the Serbs and Bulgarians are Orthodox and write in Cyrillic, which is almost like a Greek alphabet? Let me tell you why, because the Byzantines tried to assimilate them, and they did not assimilate them in Greece, but in Serbia and Bulgaria. So, Slavs invading Byzantine territory doesn't mean that they invaded Greece.

[Peterski]

Ethnic groups of Macedonia before World War 1 (others = Greeks, Vlachs, Albanians, etc.):

https://s17.postimg.org/3qj3743fx/Salonika_Slavs.png

https://s17.postimg.org/3qj3743fx/Salonika_Slavs.png

[nightrider+]

Slavic loanwords are inexistent (except specific places in northern Greece).


:picard1:

Have you ever gotten out of Crete?

[Lavrentis]

:picard1:

Have you ever gotten out of Crete?

Cite some Slavic loanwords. More than 10, which are used all over Greece :coffee:

[Peterski]

FYROM should have access to the sea, based on 1914 ethnic situation.

[nightrider+]

Cite some Slavic loanwords. More than 10, which are used all over Greece :coffee:

https://sarantakos.wordpress.com/2013/09/11/100slav/

[Сербо Макеридов]

According to one study Slavic Macedonians (non-helenized) from Aegean Macedonia have 30% R1a.

[Lavrentis]

Ethnic groups of Macedonia before World War 1 (others = Greeks, Vlachs, Albanians, etc.):

https://s17.postimg.org/3qj3743fx/Salonika_Slavs.png

https://s17.postimg.org/3qj3743fx/Salonika_Slavs.png


FYROM should have access to the sea, based on 1914 ethnic situation.

They were all expelled from Greece after the Civil War because they wanted to make Greek Macedonia a Yugoslavian province. They tried and lost.

[Lavrentis]

https://sarantakos.wordpress.com/2013/09/11/100slav/

You spastic idiot, I told you to cite me 10 fucking words which are used everyday in Greece and you failed to do this. Just shut the fuck up, you lost this argument, stop pretending to be a smartass.

[nightrider+]

You spastic idiot, I told you to cite me 10 fucking words which are used everyday in Greece and you failed to do this. Just shut the fuck up, you lost this argument, stop pretending to be a smartass.

Jesus Christ, someone should force feed you your meds.

[Сербо Макеридов]

They were all expelled from Greece after the Civil War because they wanted to make Greek Macedonia a Yugoslavian province. They tried and lost.

You are comited genocide against Slavic Macedonians from Aegean Macedonia.


https://youtu.be/lRfrgu2qtXA

https://youtu.be/U3Z-3GtyfS0

[Lavrentis]

Jesus Christ, someone should force feed you your meds.

1) Your source uses words that are used literally everywhere in the world, such as "soviet", "sputnik" and "perestroika".

2) Most of the words your source used are words that I have never heard in my life.

3) I asked you to cite me 10 words that are used everyday and you failed. Tried to be a smartass but you didn't achieve it.

[Laberia]

FYROM should have access to the sea, based on 1914 ethnic situation.

Firomski didn't existed back in 1914. You know this fact? It's an modern invention, like many others, starting with your fellow servs who are a bunch of Vlachs and Albanians who passed through the process of servization thanks to the Orthodox servian church.

[Lavrentis]

You are comited genocide against Slavic Macedonians from Aegean Macedonia.


https://youtu.be/lRfrgu2qtXA

https://youtu.be/U3Z-3GtyfS0

No genocide, but expulsion. And I already stated the reason, they wanted to make Greek Macedonia a part of Yugoslavia. They were armed and supported by Yugoslavs and Soviets.

Serbs have commited genocide against Bosniaks in Srebrenica, you tried to do the same against Albanians in Kosovo but thankfully NATO stopped you.

[Voskos]

Kosovo is albania.
Macedonia is Greece.

End of story.

[nightrider+]

1) Your source uses words that are used literally everywhere in the world, such as "soviet", "sputnik" and "perestroika".

2) Most of the words your source used are words that I have never heard in my life.

3) I asked you to cite me 10 words that are used everyday and you failed. Tried to be a smartass but you didn't achieve it.

1) He categorizes those differently, dumbass.

2) Yes, because you are Cretan and probably have never traveled through rural mainland. No one ever talked about Slavicization of Crete.

3) There are more than 10 there, idiot. I'm not competing with your retarded ass here, just stating facts.

[Laberia]

Where is Darknesskin and catgeorge when we need them?

[Lavrentis]

1) He categorizes those differently, dumbass.

2) Yes, because you are Cretan and probably have never traveled through rural mainland. No one ever talked about Slavicization of Crete.

3) There are more than 10 there, idiot. I'm not competing with your retarded ass here, just stating facts.

1) My original question was about 10 Slavic words that Greeks use in everyday life and you source me someone who "categorized those differently". Its your fault.

2) Then what are those words you fucking retard? Why are you dodging my question? Cite me 10 Slavic words that Greeks use in their everyday life, what the fuck don't you understand?

[Hithaeglir]

It is factually incorrect.

Anyway - Giorgos Vlachos is the founder of newspaper Kathimerini and this was his letter to Hitler

The most Epic Letter I have had the pleasure to read


If called upon, the army of Greece, whatever it is that remains free, will stand in Thrace they way it stood in Epirus. It will fight in Thrace as it did in Epirus. It will fight hard. It will die. And it will await the return from Berlin of the runner who came here five years ago and took with him the flame from Olympia, only to return with a torch to light a fire that threatens this land which may be small but is also great. This land that taught the world to live will now teach it how to die.

This final part touched me massively.

[nightrider+]

1) My original question was about 10 Slavic words that Greeks use in everyday life and you source me someone who "categorized those differently". Its your fault.

2) Then what are those words you fucking retard? Why are you dodging my question? Cite me 10 Slavic words that Greeks use in their everyday life, what the fuck don't you understand?

You are a hopeless case. I'm not wasting any more time with you on this.

[Laberia]

This final part touched me massively.

Yeah, those who prepare this kind of things are really experts and also.......very successful with women.

[Lavrentis]

You are a hopeless case. I'm not wasting anymore time with you on this.

You incel fuck, stop quoting me. I have stated previously that I don't want to be quoted by dumb fucks. You quote me, dodge my question and then say "I'm not wasting anymore time with you on this."

Admit that you cannot answer my question and let it go.

[nightrider+]

You incel fuck, stop quoting me. I have stated previously that I don't want to be quoted by dumb fucks. You quote me, dodge my question and then say "I'm not wasting anymore time with you on this."

Admit that you cannot answer my question and let it go.

Just admit that your are a black haired Levanto-Cretan subhuman, forever in the shadow of Slavic influenced Greeks.

[Lavrentis]

Ok, well, I see your point. Despite how population genetics is treated on here, it is still a very relative field. But does it not imply there is something Sardinians have which is closer to what these elite Bronze Age Greeks had (and which modern Greeks lack or have much less of).




Nope, you posted some wikipedia vague bullshit. We can easily prove that not all were kicked out, as we can see from the last post that they were in the Morea in the 15th Century.



no ydna clades for germanics or celts in Greece. Or very very few. like less than 4%. Slavic ydna is like 25-30% maybe. What is modern Greeks obsession with being cucked by germanics and celts? it is worse than albanian bootlicking shit.



a Maniote from the deepest part of the Peloponnese will be more northern than the Myceneans, unless maybe he has all Cretan ancestors.

1) There is a difference in saying "not all were kicked out" with saying "Greeks are Slavicized". Most were kicked out, there are so many sources about that.

2) Don't project you idiot. I don't have an obsession to cucked by anyone, I simple said that Northern influence in Greece could be Germanic or Celtic.

You lost this argument and didn't answer my previous questions. In reality most of the assimilations of Slavs happened in Bulgaria, FYROM and Serbia, that's why Serbs, Fyromians and Bulgarians are Orthodox and write in Cyrillic which is almost a Greek alphabet. They were assimilated on Byzantine territory, but not in Greece.

[Tauromachos]

There's not even enough evidence yet that it was Steppe related, just something Euro-HG related, the origin is unknown.
And Mycenaeans were not Sardinian shifted, something that Sikeliot seems unable to understand.

Perhabs it was more ,that Mycanaeans also went to Sardinia.

As you said Steppe related can mean alot of things and certainly is not directly connected to Slavs.

In fact there where no Slavs in ancient times.

No such name as Slav for any ancient tribes was ever mentioned neither by Greek nor by Roman sources.

And Slavs are also different from the native Balkan,Slavs began to appear in the Balkans at the 6-th century and from then on.

It would make more sense to speak about Scythians than Slavs.
And at least East Slavs like Russians descend from Scythians.

Slavs rather descent from a subbranch of Scythian tribes than Scythians from Slavs.

[Laberia]

Perhabs it was more ,that Mycanaeans also went to Sardinia.

As you said Steppe related can mean alot of things and certainly is not directly connected to Slavs.

In fact there where no Slavs in ancient times.

No such name as Slav for any ancient tribes was ever mentioned neither by Greek nor by Roman sources.

And Slavs are also different from the native Balkan,Slavs began to appear in the Balkans at the 6-th century and from then on.

It would make more sense to speak about Scythians than Slavs.
And at least East Slavs like Russians descend from Scythians.

Slavs rather descent from a subbranch of Scythians tribes than Scythians from Slavs.

Slavs are a subbranch of Albanians:

http://www.lituanus.org/1993_2/93_2_05.htm#Ref

Hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahhaaa

[Tauromachos]

I don't disagree with you. Greeks are Greek.


+1 at least you agree on that :thumb001:

Keeping this in mind it is ok to discuss Slavic and other influences,why not.
But trying to portray Mainlanders and Islanders as something divided and different from one another is Anti Greek racism.

You can't ignore that a significant part of modern Greeks has ancestry from different places in all possible combinations,
Islands with Mainlands,Mainlands with Anatolia,Islands with Anatolia e.c.t

There several immigrations in the past also of Island people to the Mainlands and vice versa.

You can't claim there is a wedge between everything in Greece which is from Islands and everything from the Mainland.

If different Greek people even mixed with Non Greeks Slavs,Levantines e.c.t how is it possible,that they didn't mix with one another??

[Tauromachos]

Greece was overruned by slavs. Later, Byzantines gathered some of them, we don't know exactly how, and settled them in Asia Minor, replacing them with people from Asia Minor and some from Italy. Ironically it's high probabile that some of them returned in Greece as prosfiges.

So modern Turks must be Slavs to;)

[Laberia]

So modern Turks must be Slavs to;)

Asia Minor is the biggest crossroad in human history. You can find there everything. It's like asking about the ethnicity of inhabitants of New York after 2.000 years.

[Tauromachos]

Asia Minor is the biggest crossroad in human history. You can find there everything. It's like asking about the ethnicity of inhabitants of New York after 2.000 years.

Well, this has some truth to it.
But only some

[Lavrentis]

@MagnusAurelius, what's wrong with my post man? :coffee:

[Laberia]

Well, this has some truth to it.
But only some

Gia pesmu?

[Tauromachos]

Gia pesmu?

Ti na sou po????

[Laberia]

Ti na sou po????

What is that you don`t agree in my previous post?

[Tauromachos]

What is that you don`t agree in my previous post?

I didn't even read all your previous posts
Sorry,its not that interesting for me to read everything you post.

If you mean the post where you said Slavs come from Albanians and posted again tons of obscure text i didn't understood
what you meant actually.

I gave you thumbs down because i thought you where going to troll again another thread and quoted me.
But perhabs i was wrong in that case...

Please explain what you meant if you want to discuss..

[Laberia]

I didn't even read all your previous posts
Sorry,its not that interesting for me to read everything you post.

If you mean the post where you said Slavs come from Albanians and posted again tons of obscure text i didn't understood
what you meant actually.

I gave you thumbs down because i thought you where going to troll again another thread and quoted me.
But perhabs i was wrong in that case...

Please explain what you meant if you want to discuss..
There was an missunderstanding. I was reffering to this post:

Well, this has some truth to it.
But only some

[ADonkeyBrain]

There's not even enough evidence yet that it was Steppe related, just something Euro-HG related, the origin is unknown.

This seems a bit too agnostic for me, unless I'm misunderstanding you. It was something EHG-related after all, not WHG like the Balkan HGs were, according to their models. Whatever its origins (Balkan or Anatolian) it must have come from a population that ultimately got admixture from the steppe anyway.

[Tauromachos]

This seems a bit too agnostic for me, unless I'm misunderstanding you. It was something EHG-related after all, not WHG like the Balkan HGs were, according to their models. Whatever its origins (Balkan or Anatolian) it must have come from a population that ultimately got admixture from the steppe anyway.

It probably came from Pontus and the Caspian Sea
Yes,you heard correct Pontus

[Longobarda]

Some of the northern DNA is clearly Dorian, because the more Greek parts of Sicily have a slightly elevated Steppe admixture.

Don't forget the scythians, cimmerians and sarmatians. In spite of what is said, they were in Greece and also in the mythical Troy war. See ancient greek vases found in etruscan tombs.
If I was able to post images here, (what i did not succeeded yet because of lack of information), I would show how many of those steppe people were involved in greek evenements.

I could also post all sicilian DNA splitted into the various areas of the Island. When I'm able to show pictures ......

[Trilecce]

1) There is a difference in saying "not all were kicked out" with saying "Greeks are Slavicized". Most were kicked out, there are so many sources about that.

2) Don't project you idiot. I don't have an obsession to cucked by anyone, I simple said that Northern influence in Greece could be Germanic or Celtic.

You lost this argument and didn't answer my previous questions. In reality most of the assimilations of Slavs happened in Bulgaria, FYROM and Serbia, that's why Serbs, Fyromians and Bulgarians are Orthodox and write in Cyrillic which is almost a Greek alphabet. They were assimilated on Byzantine territory, but not in Greece.

I admire you Lavrentis. Im also appauled by how many of your countrymen want to be associated with slavs.

[Lavrentis]

I admire you Lavrentis. Im also appauled by how many of your countrymen want to be associated with slavs.

This particular retard, Scholarios, writes comments like these because he wants to trigger people like Hellenas and Raine. I'm not like them, I provided him sources and arguments and the only thing he did was sourcing me a paragraph saying that the Byzantines assimilated Slavs. Of course they assimilated Slavs, but they did it in Bulgaria, FYROM and Serbia, not in Greece. That's why you have Orthodox countries in the Balkans who write in Cyrillic.

And there is an Anatolian here, DarknessWin, whose mother is getting banged by half of Russian and Serbian tourists who visit Greece and he loves Russians and Serbs for that.

[Laberia]

Don't forget the scythians, cimmerians and sarmatians. In spite of what is said, they were in Greece and also in the mythical Troy war. See ancient greek vases found in etruscan tombs.
If I was able to post images here, (what i did not succeeded yet because of lack of information), I would show how many of those steppe people were involved in greek evenements.

I could also post all sicilian DNA splitted into the various areas of the Island. When I'm able to show pictures ......

Ma devi guardare dove si legge insert image, insert video. Usi quelli comandi.

[Trilecce]

This particular retard, Scholarios, writes comments like these because he wants to trigger people like Hellenas and Raine. I'm not like them, I provided him sources and arguments and the only thing he did was sourcing me a paragraph saying that the Byzantines assimilated Slavs. Of course they assimilated Slavs, but they did it in Bulgaria, FYROM and Serbia, not in Greece. That's why you have Orthodox countries in the Balkans who write in Cyrillic.

And there is an Anatolian here, DarknessWin, whose mother is getting banged by half of Russian and Serbian tourists who visit Greece and he loves Russians and Serbs for that.

Scholarios is dogmatic in his views. I found the root for malaka once and he still wont recognize my finds.

Malaka means a rich / spoiled person in old greek. Comes from mal which in albanian means ritches/goods same as in old greek. He tried to snake his way out but he could never explain the greek word Amalgamous which means not-rich bond or poor bond. Amalgam is a poor bond of metals, usually hydroargyrum and some other metal.

He is of arvanite descent, thats where he gets his obstinance from.

[Longobarda]

There is any Celtic haplogroup (or only in trace) among Greeks.
Celts were R1b-U152, R1b-L21, G2a-L496 and maybe R1b-DF27, these haplogroups do not exist or almost do not exist among Greeks.

Greeks have 16% R1b, but that branch have nothing to do with Celts, Greks mostly have eastern branch R1b-L23.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/d2/95/6d/d2956de192a379b5eeddccf344356fd9.gif

Only Slavic influence is northern influence among Greeks, there is no Celtic and Germanic influence among Greeks.

Sorry but Haplo R1b IS NOT celtic. It came into Europe from the steppes in neolitic times by extending during millennia. It started as a common Haplo R hence dividing into R1a and R1b. R1a is a typical eastern haplogroup, hence pertaining to scythians, for example. Today russians have that haplo and in minor amount also western people. Who inherited that haplo the most are the germans.

[Tauromachos]

Don't forget ths scythians, cimmerians and sarmatians. In spite of what is said, they were in Grece and also in the mythical Troy war. See ancient greek vases
found in etruscan tombs.
If I was able to post images here, (what i did not succeeded yet because of lack of information), I would show how many of those steppe people were involved in greek evenements.

Yes,there where Scythians in ancient Greece.
"I mentioned it several times but alot of people simply ignored it."


But Scythians and Dorians where to different pairs of shoes.
Dorians where viewed by other Greeks as a Greek tribe,where Scythians where considered as Non Greek,
but some assimilated into Greek culture and also mixed with Greeks,hence became Greek.



Hellenic tribes Dorians,Ionians,Aeolians,Achaeans all where allegorically descibed as sons of one common ancestor Hellen.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellen


This means clearly they where closely related people comming from the same basic native Greek background.

Everyone who claims something different is an ignorant moron.

Perhabs Dorians or some subgroup of Dorians mixed more with Scythians than the other tribes did,perhabs not...

But there was no Dorian Invasion,this myth has been debunked also by genetic studies of scientists like Triandafilidis who studied the genetic history of Greece
for years and is an expert in this area.

It makes more sense in my view to talk about hellenized Scythians in Ancient Greece than about a mass invasion of foreign Scythian tribes.
"that didn't exist"

It makes also more sense to say that Slavs come from Scythians than to claim that Scythians where Slavic.
Slavic was an identity formed much later

Before there where Scythians and after that there where Slavs,simple

No Roman or ancient Greek Author mentioned any group called Slavic.

Slavs entered the Balkans and Southern Europe not before the 6-th century.

[Longobarda]

6642066420

Ma devi guardare dove si legge insert image, insert video. Usi quelli comandi.

è quello che faccio ma anziché postarmi l'immagine mi posta il link all'immagine. ti faccio un esempio qui sotto
66420

[Laberia]

è quello che faccio ma anziché postarmi l'immagine mi posta il link all'immagine. ti faccio un esempio qui sotto
66420

Scusa, ma l`imagine e nella vostra PC?

[Laberia]

è quello che faccio ma anziché postarmi l'immagine mi posta il link all'immagine. ti faccio un esempio qui sotto
66420
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=66420&d=1502658076

[Ibericus]

Sorry but Haplo R1b IS NOT celtic. It came into Europe from the steppes in neolitic times by extending during millennia. It started as a common Haplo R hence dividing into R1a and R1b. R1a is a typical eastern haplogroup, hence pertaining to scythians, for example. Today russians have that haplo and in minor amount also western people. Who inherited that haplo the most are the germans.
Well R1b didn't originate in Celts nobody denies that, but certainly Celts belonged mostly to R1b...

[Longobarda]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=66420&d=1502658076

Si, sono nel mio PC. Ma anche quando ho tentato di postare qualcosa tramite url mi ha postato un link. Come mai tu vedi l'immagine? Io NON la vedo, vedo solo un link.

[nightrider+]

This seems a bit too agnostic for me, unless I'm misunderstanding you. It was something EHG-related after all, not WHG like the Balkan HGs were, according to their models. Whatever its origins (Balkan or Anatolian) it must have come from a population that ultimately got admixture from the steppe anyway.

Actually the paper mentions it as Eastern European/North Eurasian-related ancestry and makes it obvious that it's more probable it came from the east. Even if the source is the steppe, it reached Greece heavily diluted.
Balkan farmers had some admixture resembling SHG/EHG btw, not WHG.

[Longobarda]

Well R1b didn't originate in Celts nobody denies that, but certainly Celts belonged mostly to R1b...

Evidently before arriving into Europe they were living in areas where R1b was present. In my opinion they came from the today Israel area. I.e. Canaan.

[Laberia]

Si, sono nel mio PC. Ma anche quando ho tentato di postare qualcosa tramite url mi ha postato un link. Come mai tu vedi l'immagine? Io NON la vedo, vedo solo un link.
Nell caso dell link ce una picola casela, uncheck.
Mentre quando l`maggine e nell PC, fai la procedura come hai fatto fino ad adesso e doppo aver postato, apri il link e segui la seconda procedura. Per avere l`immagine nell post che desidera, fai edit all post. Non so se mi spiego. Scusa per il mio italiano, ma con il telefonino va molto meglio perche ce la prediction e non ci sonno errori di gramatica. Spero che sonno statto d`aiuto. Comunque mi puoi chiedere aiuto di nuovo.

[Sikeliot]

Has anyone of you ever wondered why the Serbs and Bulgarians are Orthodox and write in Cyrillic, which is almost like a Greek alphabet? Let me tell you why, because the Byzantines tried to assimilate them, and they did not assimilate them in Greece, but in Serbia and Bulgaria. So, Slavs invading Byzantine territory doesn't mean that they invaded Greece.


False.

Cyrillic alphabet was invented IN THESSALONIKI when it was predominantly Slavic speaking, and such DNA lives on in the original (non-1923 transfer) population.

[catgeorge]

False.

Cyrillic alphabet was invented IN THESSALONIKI when it was predominantly Slavic speaking, and such DNA lives on in the original (non-1923 transfer) population.

Historical falsehood. Cyril and Methodius created the Alphabet to Christainize Slavs from Great Moravia not Thessaloniki.

[Tauromachos]

False.

Cyrillic alphabet was invented IN THESSALONIKI when it was predominantly Slavic speaking, and such DNA lives on in the original (non-1923 transfer) population.

????

Are you serious???

Cyrillic letters come from Byzantine greek letters and where introduced to Slavs by 2 byzantine Monks Cyrillius and Methodius.

Even Bosniensis a full fledged Bosnian Slav agreed on that.

[Dorian]

http://omg.wthax.org/cloud_penis_177x236.jpg

[Tauromachos]

Lol

[Longobarda]

Nell caso dell link ce una picola casela, uncheck.
Mentre quando l`maggine e nell PC, fai la procedura come hai fatto fino ad adesso e doppo aver postato, apri il link e segui la seconda procedura. Per avere l`immagine nell post che desidera, fai edit all post. Non so se mi spiego. Scusa per il mio italiano, ma con il telefonino va molto meglio perche ce la prediction e non ci sonno errori di gramatica. Spero che sonno statto d`aiuto. Comunque mi puoi chiedere aiuto di nuovo.
Grazie mille, proverò. Grazie anche per lo sforzo di parlare la mia lingua.

[ADonkeyBrain]

Actually the paper mentions it as Eastern European/North Eurasian-related ancestry and makes it obvious that it's more probable it came from the east. Even if the source is the steppe, it reached Greece heavily diluted.
Balkan farmers had some admixture resembling SHG/EHG btw, not WHG.

Έχεις δίκιο, είχα στο μυαλό μου τους HG τύπου Iron Gate. Βλέπω όμως πως και οι Βαλκανικοί αγροτικοί πληθυσμοί γενικά έχουν περισσότερο WHG απ'ότι EHG στα μοντέλα τους στο supplement του Mathieson et al. και σε αναλογία WHG/EHG αρκετά μεγαλύτερη των SHG (που ήταν ~60/40 αν θυμάμαι καλά).

Όπως είπες, ANE αντί για EHG επίσης τους έδωσε πειστικά μοντέλα (για προφανείς λόγους) για τους Μυκηναίους σε συνδυασμό με Anatolia_N αλλά όταν χρησιμοποιήθηκαν σε συνδυασμό με CHG/Iran_Neolithic, δηλαδή τον τυπικό συνδυασμό της Χαλκολιθικής στέππας. ANE/EHG μόνα τους σε συνδυασμό με Μινωίτες που είχαν ήδη CHG δεν έβγαιναν επίσης, μόνο στέππα (φαντάζομαι και Βαλκανικοί πληθυσμοί με ανάμειξη από τη στέππα αν τους χρησιμοποιούσαν) + Μινωίτες.

Ο εξ'ανατολών 'Αρμένικος' πληθυσμός χρησιμοποιήθηκε σε συνάρτηση με Anatolia_Neolithic για να καλύψει την πιθανότητα της νότιας Ελλάδας να διαφέρει γενετικά από τους Μινωίτες και να μοιάζει με καθαρά Νεολιθικούς πληθυσμούς χωρίς το CHG. Εξαρτάται πόσο πιθανό θεωρεί κανείς το αντίστοιχο ενδεχόμενο.

Σίγουρα δεν έχει τελειώσει το παιχνίδι σε κάθε περίπτωση αλλά πιστεύω πως κάποια σενάρια είναι πολύ πιο πειστικά πλέον.

Ως υγ: ενδιαφέρον είχε το δείγμα από τους Αρμένους που τους έδωσε πειστικά μοντέλα ως Anatolia_N + EHG/ANE αλλά λόγω χαμηλής ποιότητας δεν έκαναν άλλα τεστ οπότε μπορεί να μη λέει και πολλά


False. Cyrillic alphabet was invented IN THESSALONIKI when it was predominantly Slavic speaking, and such DNA lives on in the original (non-1923 transfer) population.

Lavrentis writes a lot of nonsense but Salonica was never 'predominantly Slavic speaking', indeed it was a city that the Slavs couldn't capture/penetrate and as such remained continuously predominantly Greek-speaking until the Ottoman capture (in certain periods when Ladino-speaking Jews made up a plurality of its population). Of course, bilingualism must have existed (we have some historical clues of that) due to the neighboring Slavs in the countryside to the North. Also as an aside, the Cyrillic wasn't invented by the Byzantine Cyril, that was the Glagolitic; it was likely invented by Cyril's Bulgarian students at Preslav.

[catgeorge]

Bulgarian Ydna frequencies looks Greeks in large percentage and seems very South European Neolithic and Old subclades... Other than Haplogroup C, L, N, Q + H which you won't find in Greece everything else is similar,

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6Bq0iUu8AQQ/UTgY4Q0tIdI/AAAAAAAAIr0/tavv7l6X0ek/s1600/journal.pone.0056779.g002.png

[Longobarda]

Grazie mille, proverò. Grazie anche per lo sforzo di parlare la mia lingua.

niente. Non riesco. Quando faccio "edit" finalmente vedo l'immagine, ma poi quando salvo non compare nella discussione.... se almeno trovassi un help qui nel forum dove spieghi la procedura.....

[nightrider+]

Έχεις δίκιο, είχα στο μυαλό μου τους HG τύπου Iron Gate. Βλέπω όμως πως και οι Βαλκανικοί αγροτικοί πληθυσμοί γενικά έχουν περισσότερο WHG απ'ότι EHG στα μοντέλα τους στο supplement του Mathieson et al. και σε αναλογία WHG/EHG αρκετά μεγαλύτερη των SHG (που ήταν ~60/40 αν θυμάμαι καλά).

Όπως είπες, ANE αντί για EHG επίσης τους έδωσε πειστικά μοντέλα (για προφανείς λόγους) για τους Μυκηναίους σε συνδυασμό με Anatolia_N αλλά όταν χρησιμοποιήθηκαν σε συνδυασμό με CHG/Iran_Neolithic, δηλαδή τον τυπικό συνδυασμό της Χαλκολιθικής στέππας. ANE/EHG μόνα τους σε συνδυασμό με Μινωίτες που είχαν ήδη CHG δεν έβγαιναν επίσης, μόνο στέππα + Μινωίτες.

Ο εξ'ανατολών 'Αρμένικος' πληθυσμός χρησιμοποιήθηκε σε συνάρτηση με Anatolia_Neolithic για να καλύψει την πιθανότητα της νότιας Ελλάδας να διαφέρει γενετικά από τους Μινωίτες και να μοιάζει με καθαρά Νεολιθικούς πληθυσμούς χωρίς το CHG. Εξαρτάται πόσο πιθανό θεωρεί κανείς το αντίστοιχο ενδεχόμενο.

Σίγουρα δεν έχει τελειώσει το παιχνίδι σε κάθε περίπτωση αλλά πιστεύω πως κάποια σενάρια είναι πολύ πιο πειστικά πλέον.

Ως υγ: ενδιαφέρον είχε το δείγμα από τους Αρμένους που τους έδωσε πειστικά μοντέλα ως Anatolia_N + EHG/ANE αλλά λόγω χαμηλής ποιότητας δεν έκαναν άλλα τεστ οπότε μπορεί να μη λέει και πολλά


The thing is that some ANE-related ancestry was already in the Balkans in the Neolithic and who's to say it wasn't also in Greece in places not tested yet...
Also, I don't know why this went unnoticed but Iron Age Iranian clusters with Bronze Age Anatolia.
http://eurogenes.blogspot.gr/2017/08/the-iron-age-iranian.html
Btw, watch davidski claim that BA Anatolians probably weren't IE. Yeah, the place where the earliest attested IE language comes from wasn't IE when everyone else was. Makes sense. :rolleyes:

[Tauromachos]

Salonica was never 'predominantly Slavic speaking', indeed it was a city that the Slavs couldn't capture/penetrate and as such remained continuously predominantly Greek-speaking until the Ottoman capture (in certain periods when Ladino-speaking Jews made up a plurality of its population). Of course, bilingualism must have existed (we have some historical clues of that) due to the neighboring Slavs in the countryside to the North.
:thumb001:



Also as an aside, the Cyrillic wasn't invented by the Byzantine Cyril, that was the Glagolitic; it was likely invented by Cyril's Bulgarian students at Preslav.

Ενταξη ρε φυλε,
οτι και να ητανε, βασικα προερχετε απο το ελληνικο αλφαβητο που το χρυσημοποιουν εδο οι
Ελληνες τουλαχιστον 2300 χρωνια και βαλε.

Δηλαδη, ενω που δεν καταλαβαινω τι γραφουν καταλαβαινω ολλα τα γραμματα τους που εινε ιδια σχεδον με τα δικα μας
και διαφερουν μονο στο πως τα γραφουν.

Δηλαδη το μεγαλο μας το Ητα το γραφουν οπως εμεις Η.
Το οτι γραφουν το Σιγμα σαν Λατινικο C,c αντι για Σ,σ ινε καθαρα βυζαντινο, διοτι και οι Ελληνες επι Βυζαντιο το γραφαν ετσι.
Εκτος απο τετειες παραλαγες νομιζο δεν ινε και κατι ιδιαιτερο για να θεωρουμε οτι προκειτε για ενα τελιος καινουριο ξεχωριστο
αλφαβητο.

[Dick]

The thing is that some ANE-related ancestry was already in the Balkans in the Neolithic and who's to say it wasn't also in Greece in places not tested yet...
Also, I don't know why this went unnoticed but Iron Age Iranian clusters with Bronze Age Anatolia.
http://eurogenes.blogspot.gr/2017/08/the-iron-age-iranian.html
Btw, watch davidski claim that BA Anatolians probably weren't IE. Yeah, the place where the earliest attested IE language comes from wasn't IE when everyone else was. Makes sense. :rolleyes:

Does he also claim that Armenians and Kurds aren't IE in that case?

[nightrider+]

Does he also claim that Armenians and Kurds aren't IE in that case?

He hasn't gone that far yet but if those people lacked R1a/R1b I'm pretty sure he'd get into linguistics to disprove their IE-ness.

[jingorex]

i think Greece was a cum dumpster for east and west.

discuss.

[Dick]

He hasn't gone that far yet but if those people lacked R1a/R1b I'm pretty sure he'd get into linguistics to disprove their IE-ness.

Centum = Early Neolithic farmers from Anatolia. Satum = Steppe/Yamna. Both IE either way you look at it.

[Sikeliot]

????

Are you serious???

Cyrillic letters come from Byzantine greek letters and where introduced to Slavs by 2 byzantine Monks Cyrillius and Methodius.

Even Bosniensis a full fledged Bosnian Slav agreed on that.


But it originated within Thessaloniki, which at the time was mostly populated by Slavs.

[Lemon Kush]

So lately this Forum has a dilemma: is the Northerh influence in Greeks Indo-European or Slavic?

1) Why not from Celts? Celtic invading tribes had even reached Peloponnese at one point.

2) Why don't they claim that is Germanic? For example, northern Greece was overrun by Germanic tribes, at one point they even reached Athens.

3) Anyone who has studied Byzantine history knows that the Byzantines slaughtered and expelled the Slavs who invaded Greece and settled them in Asia Minor other massacres followed, since the Slavs were rebellious and the Byzantines didn't like that.

But in my opinion, northern influence in Greece is a result of Indo-Europeans. I don't think that Celts and Germanics left many genetic traces in Greece, and as I said previously, the Byzantines eventually expelled the invading Slavs.

Discuss.

But you're not even Greek

[Tauromachos]

But it originated within Thessaloniki, which at the time was mostly populated by Slavs.

1)Ι doubt that it was mostly populated by Slavs.
I would believe more what ADonkeyBrain said...

2)Cyrillic letters no matter who exactly invented them clearly come from Greek letters which are much older.
They are the same letters like that of the Greek alphabet but differently written.

For the Greek letter sigma they write C instead Σ,but the Byzantines wrote it also this way.
So it is basicly derived from Byzantine Greek and not a completly new distinct Alphabet of its own,whoever invented it.

What the inventors of Cyrillic did,is they took a version of the Greek alphabet and changed/edited such that it would be
appropriate for the phonetic peculiar requirements of Slavic languages.

So,yeah you can say that Cyrillic is Slavic.

But it is derived from the Byzantine Style Greek alphabet which existed prior to it.