Are northern Italians more ancestrally Gallic, Italic or Germanic?

[Sikeliot]

My guess is most of their ancestry is from the pre-Roman Gaulish population.

[AphroditeWorshiper]

Gallic for Northwest, that's for sure

not sure about the other areas

[JMack]

Probably a mix of Italic, Celtic and Germanic.

But there's no ''northern Italy'' as a whole.

Regions like Liguria, Emilia-Romagna, Piemonte, Valle D'Aosta and Toscana are significantly different from regions like Alto-Adige, Lombardia, Friuli-Venezia Giulia. I would say most people in the last three are a mix between Celtic and Germanic, like a Central European population. In the former regions most are a mix between Celtic and Italic (with exception of Toscana, predominantly Italic) and people in these regions are significantly less Germanic influenced and more dark haired/dark eyed than we would expect for Lombardia or Alto-Adige.

Veneto I would say to be a mix of both. I have seen people there with Central European look, but also many Mediterranean types.

[Iloko]

What do you think pure Gaulish people looked like in relation to the modern Euro peoples today?

[TEUTORIGOS]

What do you think pure Gaulish people looked like in relation to the modern Euro peoples today?

I dunno, maybe some parts of Belgium and Northern France or the Benelux area. However, I am not sure.

[TEUTORIGOS]

Probably a mix of Italic, Celtic and Germanic.

But there's no ''northern Italy'' as a whole.

Regions like Liguria, Emilia-Romagna, Piemonte, Valle D'Aosta and Toscana are significantly different from regions like Alto-Adige, Lombardia, Friuli-Venezia Giulia. I would say most people in the last three are a mix between Celtic and Germanic, like a Central European population. In ther former regions most are a mix between Celtic and Italic (with exception of Toscana, predominantly Italic) and people in these regions are significantly less Germanic influenced and more dark haired/dark eyed than we would expect for Lombardia or Alto-Adige.

Veneto I would say to be a mix of both. I have seen people there with Central European look, but also many Mediterranean types.

Agreed, good answer.

[Dick]

Germanic Lombards definitely played a role in the ethnogenesis of northern Italians.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?207477-Y-dna-of-a-Lombard-Italian

Also, the forum member called 'Carlito's Way' is I1 with paternal ancestry from North Italy.

[AphroditeWorshiper]

What do you think pure Gaulish people looked like in relation to the modern Euro peoples today?

Gauls was a very mix people

Southern/Central/Northern look people

[Scipio Africanus]

Italic,Ligurian and Celtic.

[Token]

Mainly Gallic with Italic and Germanic input. The Germanic input is greater in the Northeast (probably recent and not related with the barbarian invasions) and the Gallic is greater in the Northwest unlike some people here thinks.

[Sizzo]

Northern Italy is the most heterogeneous area of Italy. Liguria was mostly Ligurian (pre IE people with a Celtic-like input); Piedmont, Aosta Valley and Lombardy were Celto-Ligurian; Emilia was Ligurian + proto-Italic (terramare, protovillanovian) + Etruscan; Romagna was Etruscan and Umbrian; Veneto was paleo-Venetic, then Italic; Trentino-Alto Adige a mix of Rhaetians (north-Etruscans) and Celts; Friuli was paleo-Venetic + Celtic. In a second stage there was a historical Gaulish invasion, from 388 BC, stronger in NW Italy (the so-called Cispadana, south of Po river, was heavily settled with Roman and Italic settlers). The Germanic heritage is stronger, obviously, in Alto Adige and other extreme North-Eastern areas but is not "barbarian". Goths and, specially, Lombards have left a superficial legacy not only in the North but in Central-South Italy, and Tuscany, also. Probably the peak of Germanic haplogroups are found in Southern Italy, in areas like Benevento, Campobasso, Palermo and Trapani, even if are founder effects, maybe. In an autosomal sense, Central-Northern Italy is more Germanic than the South, for sure.

[Sizzo]

I've noticed that Romagna (the historical area in between Bologna and Ferrara - Eastern Emilia - and Northern Marche), or at least genetic samples from that area, looks less northern-shifted than Tuscany. Probably is the lack of deep Celtic roots, Lombard superstrate combined with the Byzantine presence.

[Columella]

I've noticed that Romagna (the historical area in between Bologna and Ferrara - Eastern Emilia - and Northern Marche), or at least genetic samples from that area, looks less northern-shifted than Tuscany. Probably is the lack of deep Celtic roots, Lombard superstrate combined with the Byzantine presence.

I noticed many dark brachycephalic tendencies in Romagna and Emilia: Ferrini, Cevoli, Giacobazzi, Luttazzi, Benito Mussolini,Tonino Guerra. A Bologna Ivano Marescotti, Bruno Barbieri., Modena: Pavarotti, Reggio: Ligabue, Ferrara:Sgarbi.


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[Köstebek]

My guess is most of their ancestry is from the pre-Roman Gaulish population.

What about the genetics?

[RN97]

It's a guess since we do not have samples of those pop. However my guess is a mix of mostly italic with some other influences.

[Sizzo]

It's a guess since we do not have samples of those pop. However my guess is a mix of mostly italic with some other influences.

Italic means Latino-Faliscans (+ Venetics) and Osco-Umbrians, ancient peoples basically settled in Central-South Italy. NW Italy and Tuscany had nothing Italic in this sense. In Emilia-Romagna, though, there were the ancestral terramare and proto-villanovian cultures, probably related with proto-Latino-Faliscans. NE Italy could have an Italic heritage, indeed, if the Paleo-Venetics were truly Italics, as modern studies suggest.

[Berlko2]

Northern Italy is the most heterogeneous area of Italy. Liguria was mostly Ligurian (pre IE people with a Celtic-like input); Piedmont, Aosta Valley and Lombardy were Celto-Ligurian; Emilia was Ligurian + proto-Italic (terramare, protovillanovian) + Etruscan; Romagna was Etruscan and Umbrian; Veneto was paleo-Venetic, then Italic; Trentino-Alto Adige a mix of Rhaetians (north-Etruscans) and Celts; Friuli was paleo-Venetic + Celtic. In a second stage there was a historical Gaulish invasion, from 388 BC, stronger in NW Italy (the so-called Cispadana, south of Po river, was heavily settled with Roman and Italic settlers). The Germanic heritage is stronger, obviously, in Alto Adige and other extreme North-Eastern areas but is not "barbarian". Goths and, specially, Lombards have left a superficial legacy not only in the North but in Central-South Italy, and Tuscany, also. Probably the peak of Germanic haplogroups are found in Southern Italy, in areas like Benevento, Campobasso, Palermo and Trapani, even if are founder effects, maybe. In an autosomal sense, Central-Northern Italy is more Germanic than the South, for sure.

My great-grandfather from western Cuneo province (50km from France, in the Piedmont) looked like you but red-haired and with dark blue eyes. My great-grandmother from Alessandria province (eastern Piedmont) was light blonde with blue eyes. Do you think they have more Celtic or Germanic influence in these places? They didn't look "italic", I guess my great-grandfather looked French and my great-grandmother Germanic.

[Sizzo]

My great-grandfather from western Cuneo province (50km from France, in the Piedmont) looked like you but red-haired and with dark blue eyes. My great-grandmother from Alessandria province (eastern Piedmont) was light blonde with blue eyes. Do you think they have more Celtic or Germanic influence in these places? They didn't look "italic", I guess my great-grandfather looked French and my great-grandmother Germanic.

Cuneo is a very Celto-Ligurian land, more Celtic than Germanic, for sure, but there were also Lombards; Alessandria is a composite province: they have Lombardian influence (Tortona), Ligurian influence (the south, Val Borbera, a genetic isolate, is under Alessandria) and of course Piedmontese in the Monferrato zone. In Piedmont there are plenty of place names in -engo, that indicate a Lombard/Germanic foundation, as in between the territories of Bergamo, Cremona, Brescia and Verona.

[Tauromachos]

Are there any Levantine influences in Northern Italy?

No trolling,just curious

[brennus dux gallorum]

Italo-celtic

[Köstebek]

Are there any Levantine influences in Northern Italy?

No trolling,just curious

That would be profession of Sikeliot. If someone know that, its him. He has gedmatch from areas of Italy. He might have good idea about that

[Bosniensis]

My guess is most of their ancestry is from the pre-Roman Gaulish population.

We don't have to guess.

According to Emperor Nikephoros Phocas, in 968 A.D. has called all Northern Italians = Barbarians.

He called them, Barbarian Franks, he accused them for deportations and slaughter of Italians.

On the other hand he called Catalans = Italians.

here is the brochure: grbs.library.duke.edu/article/download/11101/4231

I doubt that modern historians are smarter than Nikephoros and others.

[MinervaItalica]

That would be profession of Sikeliot. If someone know that, its him. He has gedmatch from areas of Italy. He might have good idea about that

I doubt, he knows 0 about Italy...

:lol:


We don't have to guess.

According to Emperor Nikephoros Phocas, in 968 A.D. has called all Northern Italians = Barbarians.

He called them, Barbarian Franks, he accused them for deportations and slaughter of Italians.

On the other hand he called Catalans = Italians.

here is the brochure: grbs.library.duke.edu/article/download/11101/4231

I doubt that modern historians are smarter than Nikephoros and others.

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/b8/02/df/b802df6573bb09cc72264248a5469ed3--painted-faces-pierrot.jpg

[Tauromachos]

:cool:

[Sizzo]

Are there any Levantine influences in Northern Italy?

No trolling,just curious

What do you mean with Levantine? If ancient (EEF) yes, otherwise just a weak influence along the Adriatic coasts brought by Byzantines.

[Tauromachos]

What do you mean with Levantine? If ancient (EEF) yes, otherwise just a weak influence along the Adriatic coasts brought by Byzantines.

Whatever it is supposed to mean....;)

I hear the word Levantine here so often that i wondered if there is anything like that in Northern Italy too or if it
is only Southern Italians and Cypriots who have this honor.:)

[Sikeliot]

That would be profession of Sikeliot. If someone know that, its him. He has gedmatch from areas of Italy. He might have good idea about that

Any Levantine DNA in northern Italy was brought there by migration from the south. So the answer is, for the most part, no.

[Columella]

Any Levantine DNA in northern Italy was brought there by migration from the south. So the answer is, for the most part, no.

Ancient or recent?
Recent southern migration would be only relevant for Milan and Turin and some other industrial areas.


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[Sikeliot]

What do you mean with Levantine? If ancient (EEF) yes, otherwise just a weak influence along the Adriatic coasts brought by Byzantines.

Why would Byzantines bring Levantine ancestry? I don't get it. What are you referring to?

[Sikeliot]

Ancient or recent?
Recent southern migration would be only relevant for Milan and Turin and some other industrial areas.


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Recent.

North Italians would not have any Levantine DNA, unless the person was not really a full northerner and had a Sicilian or Calabrese grandparent or something, then there will be a small amount of Levantine DNA.

[Tauromachos]

:cool:

[Sikeliot]

:cool:


What is your issue?

[Columella]

Recent.

North Italians would not have any Levantine DNA, unless the person was not really a full northerner and had a Sicilian or Calabrese grandparent or something, then there will be a small amount of Levantine DNA.

It's easy
Do you have maps or data available for Levantine/w Asian DNA in northern Italy?

If it's more present in Milan or Turin (Lombardy and Piedmont) you are right
If it's present all over then you are wrong :-D



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[Sizzo]

Why would Byzantines bring Levantine ancestry? I don't get it. What are you referring to?

Do you mean something like MENA admixture of 23&Me? If so, yes, never seen a (pure) North Italian with MENA score. Anyway Byzantines have brought Levantine and Armenian soldiers with them, even if their impact was for sure virtual absent. On the other hand genetists like Cavalli-Sforza and Piazza noticed a "Greek" influence in Romagna and around Ferrara (Eastern Emilia).

[Sikeliot]

On the other hand genetists like Cavalli-Sforza and Piazza noticed a "Greek" influence in Romagna and around Ferrara (Eastern Emilia).

This would not bring Levantine DNA.

The only sensible explanation is migration from the south, which would mean it is brought indirectly by people of partially southern Italian descent -- but this would only apply to people from specific regions, not the entire south.

[Sizzo]

This would not bring Levantine DNA.

The only sensible explanation is migration from the south, which would mean it is brought indirectly by people of partially southern Italian descent -- but this would only apply to people from specific regions, not the entire south.

Ok then, you mean recent Levantine. If so I agree with you. But I didn't mean that North Italy as a whole has recent Levantine input (except southern-influenced individuals); my doubts were about Romagna, because looks less north-shifted than Tuscany.

[Sikeliot]

Ok then, you mean recent Levantine. If so I agree with you. But I didn't mean that North Italy as a whole has recent Levantine input (except southern-influenced individuals); my doubts were about Romagna, because looks less north-shifted than Tuscany.

I mean recent. The most recent Levantine input they could conceivably have is indirect through people of mixed northern-southern descent, like with a southern grandparent. As for Emilia, I think that they have higher Caucasian input than Tuscans, but this would be prehistoric.

[Columella]

Any data?



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[Token]

Haplogroup I1, associated with the Norse and Germanic ethnicity, is found more frequently in Northeast Italy, mostly in the bordering regions, and is comparable to the Northern regions of France, heavily settled by Germanic tribes, and even some regions of England. There is also a hotspot in the Padova area in central Veneto:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=66590&d=1503168540

Some people think that just because the Lombardy region is named after a Germanic tribe it's the most Germanic influenced are of Italy. As you can see, it's not true. Northeast Italy in general, not only the extreme parts, also scores high percentage of Northwest European admixture, associated with West Germanic ancestry.
It's correct to say that Northwest Italy is the most Italo-Celtic influenced area of Italy, principally the Lombardy region. The haplogroup R1b-U152 is associated with the Gaulish and Italic tribes and it peaks in the Northwest, but this higher percentage can also be of Roman origin. This map shows the distribution of the haplogroup in Italy and the location of the Roman colonies:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=66591&d=1503168868

It's very hard if not impossible today to differentiate Italic and Gaulish paternal lines because both were very similar, maybe because they shared a common origin. What we can conclude is that the Northwest Italy is heavily Italo-Celtic with minor Germanic input while the Northeast is mostly Italic with some regions like Padova in Central Veneto and the bordering regions being heavily Germanic influenced genetically.

[Lavrentis]

Gallic and Italic but the Germanic influence has its presence.

[Columella]

Haplogroup I1, associated with the Norse and Germanic ethnicity, is found more frequently in Northeast Italy, mostly in the bordering regions, and is comparable to the Northern regions of France, heavily settled by Germanic tribes, and even some regions of England. There is also a hotspot in the Padova area in central Veneto:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=66590&d=1503168540
.

There is a concentrated dark green area of I1 in the south, more or less on the Appennino crest between Abruzzo and Molise. I know Benevento was a Lombard Dukedom. Another one in North west Sicily around Palermo and a slight one on Bologna in the north south of Padova.



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[Iloko]

Northwestern-Italy(Piedmont) 23andme result:

http://i.imgur.com/pVapjSP.png

[Token]

There is a concentrated dark green area of I1 in the south, more or less on the Appennino crest between Abruzzo and Molise. I know Benevento was a Lombard Dukedom. Another one in North west Sicily around Palermo and a slight one on Bologna in the north south of Padova.



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The hotspot in Sicily is almost certainly Norman influence. For Bologna i'm not sure but it can be Langobardic settlement.

[Berlko2]

Cuneo is a very Celto-Ligurian land, more Celtic than Germanic, for sure, but there were also Lombards; Alessandria is a composite province: they have Lombardian influence (Tortona), Ligurian influence (the south, Val Borbera, a genetic isolate, is under Alessandria) and of course Piedmontese in the Monferrato zone. In Piedmont there are plenty of place names in -engo, that indicate a Lombard/Germanic foundation, as in between the territories of Bergamo, Cremona, Brescia and Verona.

My great-grandmother's family was from a small town near Tortona. Now it makes sense that the Lombards settled in that area, since she and her family looked more Germanic than Italic or Celtic.
Thanks for the info.

[nightrider+]

Does anyone really give a fuck?!

[Sizzo]

The hotspot in Sicily is almost certainly Norman influence. For Bologna i'm not sure but it can be Langobardic settlement.

Probably Taifals (or Lombards in the area of San Giovanni Persiceto, between Modena and Bologna).

[Sikeliot]

The hotspot in Sicily is almost certainly Norman influence. For Bologna i'm not sure but it can be Langobardic settlement.

Funny thing is autosomally, the Norman input doesn't show in Palermo but it does in Trapani.

[Berlko2]

Northwestern-Italy(Piedmont) 23andme result:

http://i.imgur.com/pVapjSP.png

I thought Piedmontese people would score more Western European.

Do you have any other Piedmontese genetic result? I'm interested. Thanks!

[Sizzo]

The guy posted by Shazou is from Novara, that isn't historically Piedmontese, is more toward Milan and current Lombardy (they talk a Lombardian dialect, not Piedmontese). Average Piedmontese individuals are more NW. Btw it would be better to delete the name of that Novara dude...

[Berlko2]

The guy posted by Shazou is from Novara, that isn't historically Piedmontese, is more toward Milan and current Lombardy (they talk a Lombardian dialect, not Piedmontese). Average Piedmontese individuals are more NW. Btw it would be better to delete the name of that Novara dude...

So, the average western Piedmontese would be less northern European than the ones near Lombardia? Do you have any genetic result? Thanks!

[Bell Beaker]

Gallic

Enviado do meu CAM-L21 através de Tapatalk

[Sizzo]

So, the average western Piedmontese would be less northern European than the ones near Lombardia? Do you have any genetic result? Thanks!

No, the contrary: all guys I seen from Cuneo, Turin (and obviously Val d'Aosta that is not so distant from pure Piedmontese) are more NW-shifted compared to people from Lombardy, Liguria, Emilia, Romagna, even the south-central part of Veneto.

[Bobby Martnen]

Mostly Italic.

South Tyroleans are German/Austrian, not Italian, and thus don't count as North Italians.

[Vid Flumina]

Recent.

North Italians would not have any Levantine DNA, unless the person was not really a full northerner and had a Sicilian or Calabrese grandparent or something, then there will be a small amount of Levantine DNA.

Which calculator do you reckon is best to pick up actual levantine ancestry in Italians?

[MagnusAurelius]

Germanic Lombards definitely played a role in the ethnogenesis of northern Italians.

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?207477-Y-dna-of-a-Lombard-Italian

Also, the forum member called 'Carlito's Way' is I1 with paternal ancestry from North Italy.

http://racialreality.altervista.org/padania/ Not a significant role, Northern Italy is primarily Italic/Celtic/Neolithic.

[Vid Flumina]

So, the average western Piedmontese would be less northern European than the ones near Lombardia? Do you have any genetic result? Thanks!

Lombardy is shifted toward Liguria and Tuscany compared to the rest of the Po Valley. I'm 1/2 Eastern Venetian, 1/8 Aostan and the rest Southwestern Piedmontese; my results should be pretty average for non-lombardic N. Italians, and they consistently seem to require some 15% additional North European to the Bergamo sample for a better fit:

Eurogenes K15
# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 21.97
2 Atlantic 20.44
3 West_Med 19.2
4 East_Med 17.19
5 Baltic 9.06
6 Eastern_Euro 5.56
7 West_Asian 3.55
8 Red_Sea 2.18
9 South_Asian 0.4
10 Siberian 0.31
11 Sub-Saharan 0.14

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 6.74
2 Spanish_Galicia 9.26
3 Portuguese 9.31
4 Tuscan 9.97
5 Spanish_Cataluna 10.45
6 Spanish_Extremadura 10.54
7 Spanish_Murcia 10.78
8 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 11.36
9 French 11.95
10 Serbian 12.7
11 Spanish_Valencia 12.99
12 Spanish_Andalucia 13.1
13 Romanian 13.53
14 Greek_Thessaly 13.6
15 Bulgarian 14.23
16 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 14.25
17 Spanish_Cantabria 14.53
18 Greek 15.61
19 West_Sicilian 15.66
20 Southwest_French 15.69

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 84.2% North_Italian + 15.8% North_Swedish @ 4.83
2 76.4% North_Italian + 23.6% West_German @ 4.86
3 57.9% Spanish_Cataluna + 42.1% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.88
4 61.7% Spanish_Galicia + 38.3% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.88
5 84.1% North_Italian + 15.9% Swedish @ 4.91
6 61.7% Portuguese + 38.3% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.98
7 84.2% North_Italian + 15.8% Norwegian @ 5
8 85.1% North_Italian + 14.9% West_Norwegian @ 5.03
9 86% North_Italian + 14% Finnish @ 5.06
10 63.8% Tuscan + 36.2% West_German @ 5.14
11 79% North_Italian + 21% Hungarian @ 5.15
12 73.8% Tuscan + 26.2% Norwegian @ 5.17
13 75% Tuscan + 25% West_Norwegian @ 5.2
14 85.7% North_Italian + 14.3% Southwest_Finnish @ 5.23
15 88.1% North_Italian + 11.9% Estonian @ 5.27
16 74.3% Tuscan + 25.7% Swedish @ 5.32
17 87.7% North_Italian + 12.3% East_Finnish @ 5.32
18 68.9% French + 31.1% Algerian_Jewish @ 5.33
19 66% Spanish_Galicia + 34% Greek @ 5.36
20 84.9% North_Italian + 15.1% North_Dutch

Eurogenes K13
# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 33.36
2 West_Med 22.16
3 East_Med 19.78
4 Baltic 16.17
5 West_Asian 4.69
6 Red_Sea 2.29
7 South_Asian 0.73
8 Siberian 0.62
9 Sub-Saharan 0.22

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 5.58
2 Portuguese 9.02
3 Tuscan 9.72
4 Spanish_Galicia 10.22
5 Spanish_Extremadura 10.23
6 Spanish_Cataluna 10.41
7 Spanish_Murcia 10.64
8 Spanish_Valencia 10.68
9 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 11.06
10 French 11.72
11 Spanish_Andalucia 11.82
12 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 12.63
13 Romanian 13.08
14 Spanish_Cantabria 13.68
15 Serbian 13.75
16 Bulgarian 14.31
17 Greek_Thessaly 14.8
18 Southwest_French 14.82
19 Spanish_Aragon 15.22
20 West_German 15.69

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 87.3% North_Italian + 12.7% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.92
2 88.7% North_Italian + 11.3% Finnish @ 3.04
3 86.2% North_Italian + 13.8% North_Swedish @ 3.08
4 89.1% North_Italian + 10.9% Estonian @ 3.17
5 79.7% North_Italian + 20.3% Hungarian @ 3.18
6 89.4% North_Italian + 10.6% East_Finnish @ 3.19
7 88.4% North_Italian + 11.6% Belorussian @ 3.22
8 57.8% Spanish_Valencia + 42.2% Bulgarian @ 3.24
9 89.4% North_Italian + 10.6% La_Brana-1 @ 3.25
10 79.3% North_Italian + 20.7% Austrian @ 3.3
11 81.4% North_Italian + 18.6% East_German @ 3.33
12 88.5% North_Italian + 11.5% Estonian_Polish @ 3.37
13 86.1% North_Italian + 13.9% South_Polish @ 3.39
14 58% Spanish_Murcia + 42% Bulgarian @ 3.39
15 89.9% North_Italian + 10.1% Lithuanian @ 3.4
16 87.7% North_Italian + 12.3% Polish @ 3.45
17 88.7% North_Italian + 11.3% Russian_Smolensk @ 3.49
18 55.5% Spanish_Valencia + 44.5% Romanian @ 3.51
19 88.4% North_Italian + 11.6% Southwest_Russian @ 3.52
20 86.2% North_Italian + 13.8% Swedish @ 3.54

MDLP K16 Modern
# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 32.9
2 Caucasian 27.65
3 NorthEastEuropean 18.61
4 Steppe 15.68
5 NorthAfrican 2.17
6 Indian 1.5
7 NearEast 1.48

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Italian (Bergamo) 4.01
2 Italian (Friul) 5.73
3 Corsican (Corsica) 5.9
4 Provencal (Provence) 6.09
5 Swiss (Switzerland) 6.52
6 Italian (NorthIitaly) 6.57
7 Montenegrian (Montenegro) 7.02
8 Romanian (Gorj) 7.09
9 Italian (Tuscany) 7.25
10 Macedonian (Macedonia) 7.35
11 Serbian (Serbia) 7.42
12 Romanian (Apuseni) 7.58
13 Kosovar (Kosovo) 7.64
14 Spanish (Spain) 7.79
15 Spanish (Baleares) 8.02
16 French (EastFrance) 8.21
17 French (NorthwestFrance) 8.41
18 Bulgarian (Bulgaria) 8.5
19 Portuguese (Portugal) 8.72
20 German (Germany) 8.86

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79.5% Italian (Bergamo) + 20.5% Cossack (Zaporozhie) @ 1.73
2 73% Italian (Bergamo) + 27% Bosnian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) @ 1.87
3 73.7% Italian (Bergamo) + 26.3% Croat (Bosnia-Herzegovina) @ 1.93
4 79.1% Italian (Bergamo) + 20.9% Hungarian (Budapest) @ 1.94
5 84.1% Italian (Bergamo) + 15.9% Belarusian_West (WestBelarus) @ 1.97
6 73.9% Italian (Bergamo) + 26.1% Serbian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) @ 2.04
7 83.9% Italian (Bergamo) + 16.1% Ukrainians_north (NorthUkraine) @ 2.07
8 79.5% Italian (Bergamo) + 20.5% Hungarian (Hungary) @ 2.08
9 84.5% Italian (Bergamo) + 15.5% Belarusian_East (EastBelarus) @ 2.08
10 85.5% Italian (Bergamo) + 14.5% Belarusian (Belarus) @ 2.1
11 87.2% Italian (Bergamo) + 12.8% Russians-West (WestRussian) @ 2.14
12 77% Italian (Bergamo) + 23% Slovenian (Slovenia) @ 2.15
13 82.9% Italian (Bergamo) + 17.1% Ukrainian (Ukraine) @ 2.15
14 80.9% Italian (Bergamo) + 19.1% Slovak (Slovakia) @ 2.17
15 84.9% Italian (Bergamo) + 15.1% Russian (CentralRussia) @ 2.17
16 82.2% Italian (Bergamo) + 17.8% Pole (Wroclaw) @ 2.18
17 87.5% Italian (Bergamo) + 12.5% Lithuanian (Lithuania) @ 2.18
18 82.3% Italian (Bergamo) + 17.7% Sorb (Lusatia) @ 2.2
19 85.2% Italian (Bergamo) + 14.8% Ukrainians_east (EastUkraine) @ 2.21
20 88.8% Italian (Bergamo) + 11.2% Latvian_Cesis (Cesis) @ 2.23

[Berlko2]

Lombardy is shifted toward Liguria and Tuscany compared to the rest of the Po Valley. I'm 1/2 Eastern Venetian, 1/8 Aostan and the rest Southwestern Piedmontese; my results should be pretty average for non-lombardic N. Italians, and they consistently seem to require some 15% additional North European to the Bergamo sample for a better fit:

Eurogenes K15
# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 21.97
2 Atlantic 20.44
3 West_Med 19.2
4 East_Med 17.19
5 Baltic 9.06
6 Eastern_Euro 5.56
7 West_Asian 3.55
8 Red_Sea 2.18
9 South_Asian 0.4
10 Siberian 0.31
11 Sub-Saharan 0.14

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 6.74
2 Spanish_Galicia 9.26
3 Portuguese 9.31
4 Tuscan 9.97
5 Spanish_Cataluna 10.45
6 Spanish_Extremadura 10.54
7 Spanish_Murcia 10.78
8 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 11.36
9 French 11.95
10 Serbian 12.7
11 Spanish_Valencia 12.99
12 Spanish_Andalucia 13.1
13 Romanian 13.53
14 Greek_Thessaly 13.6
15 Bulgarian 14.23
16 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 14.25
17 Spanish_Cantabria 14.53
18 Greek 15.61
19 West_Sicilian 15.66
20 Southwest_French 15.69

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 84.2% North_Italian + 15.8% North_Swedish @ 4.83
2 76.4% North_Italian + 23.6% West_German @ 4.86
3 57.9% Spanish_Cataluna + 42.1% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.88
4 61.7% Spanish_Galicia + 38.3% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.88
5 84.1% North_Italian + 15.9% Swedish @ 4.91
6 61.7% Portuguese + 38.3% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.98
7 84.2% North_Italian + 15.8% Norwegian @ 5
8 85.1% North_Italian + 14.9% West_Norwegian @ 5.03
9 86% North_Italian + 14% Finnish @ 5.06
10 63.8% Tuscan + 36.2% West_German @ 5.14
11 79% North_Italian + 21% Hungarian @ 5.15
12 73.8% Tuscan + 26.2% Norwegian @ 5.17
13 75% Tuscan + 25% West_Norwegian @ 5.2
14 85.7% North_Italian + 14.3% Southwest_Finnish @ 5.23
15 88.1% North_Italian + 11.9% Estonian @ 5.27
16 74.3% Tuscan + 25.7% Swedish @ 5.32
17 87.7% North_Italian + 12.3% East_Finnish @ 5.32
18 68.9% French + 31.1% Algerian_Jewish @ 5.33
19 66% Spanish_Galicia + 34% Greek @ 5.36
20 84.9% North_Italian + 15.1% North_Dutch

Eurogenes K13
# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 33.36
2 West_Med 22.16
3 East_Med 19.78
4 Baltic 16.17
5 West_Asian 4.69
6 Red_Sea 2.29
7 South_Asian 0.73
8 Siberian 0.62
9 Sub-Saharan 0.22

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 5.58
2 Portuguese 9.02
3 Tuscan 9.72
4 Spanish_Galicia 10.22
5 Spanish_Extremadura 10.23
6 Spanish_Cataluna 10.41
7 Spanish_Murcia 10.64
8 Spanish_Valencia 10.68
9 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 11.06
10 French 11.72
11 Spanish_Andalucia 11.82
12 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 12.63
13 Romanian 13.08
14 Spanish_Cantabria 13.68
15 Serbian 13.75
16 Bulgarian 14.31
17 Greek_Thessaly 14.8
18 Southwest_French 14.82
19 Spanish_Aragon 15.22
20 West_German 15.69

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 87.3% North_Italian + 12.7% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.92
2 88.7% North_Italian + 11.3% Finnish @ 3.04
3 86.2% North_Italian + 13.8% North_Swedish @ 3.08
4 89.1% North_Italian + 10.9% Estonian @ 3.17
5 79.7% North_Italian + 20.3% Hungarian @ 3.18
6 89.4% North_Italian + 10.6% East_Finnish @ 3.19
7 88.4% North_Italian + 11.6% Belorussian @ 3.22
8 57.8% Spanish_Valencia + 42.2% Bulgarian @ 3.24
9 89.4% North_Italian + 10.6% La_Brana-1 @ 3.25
10 79.3% North_Italian + 20.7% Austrian @ 3.3
11 81.4% North_Italian + 18.6% East_German @ 3.33
12 88.5% North_Italian + 11.5% Estonian_Polish @ 3.37
13 86.1% North_Italian + 13.9% South_Polish @ 3.39
14 58% Spanish_Murcia + 42% Bulgarian @ 3.39
15 89.9% North_Italian + 10.1% Lithuanian @ 3.4
16 87.7% North_Italian + 12.3% Polish @ 3.45
17 88.7% North_Italian + 11.3% Russian_Smolensk @ 3.49
18 55.5% Spanish_Valencia + 44.5% Romanian @ 3.51
19 88.4% North_Italian + 11.6% Southwest_Russian @ 3.52
20 86.2% North_Italian + 13.8% Swedish @ 3.54

MDLP K16 Modern
# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 32.9
2 Caucasian 27.65
3 NorthEastEuropean 18.61
4 Steppe 15.68
5 NorthAfrican 2.17
6 Indian 1.5
7 NearEast 1.48

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Italian (Bergamo) 4.01
2 Italian (Friul) 5.73
3 Corsican (Corsica) 5.9
4 Provencal (Provence) 6.09
5 Swiss (Switzerland) 6.52
6 Italian (NorthIitaly) 6.57
7 Montenegrian (Montenegro) 7.02
8 Romanian (Gorj) 7.09
9 Italian (Tuscany) 7.25
10 Macedonian (Macedonia) 7.35
11 Serbian (Serbia) 7.42
12 Romanian (Apuseni) 7.58
13 Kosovar (Kosovo) 7.64
14 Spanish (Spain) 7.79
15 Spanish (Baleares) 8.02
16 French (EastFrance) 8.21
17 French (NorthwestFrance) 8.41
18 Bulgarian (Bulgaria) 8.5
19 Portuguese (Portugal) 8.72
20 German (Germany) 8.86

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79.5% Italian (Bergamo) + 20.5% Cossack (Zaporozhie) @ 1.73
2 73% Italian (Bergamo) + 27% Bosnian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) @ 1.87
3 73.7% Italian (Bergamo) + 26.3% Croat (Bosnia-Herzegovina) @ 1.93
4 79.1% Italian (Bergamo) + 20.9% Hungarian (Budapest) @ 1.94
5 84.1% Italian (Bergamo) + 15.9% Belarusian_West (WestBelarus) @ 1.97
6 73.9% Italian (Bergamo) + 26.1% Serbian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) @ 2.04
7 83.9% Italian (Bergamo) + 16.1% Ukrainians_north (NorthUkraine) @ 2.07
8 79.5% Italian (Bergamo) + 20.5% Hungarian (Hungary) @ 2.08
9 84.5% Italian (Bergamo) + 15.5% Belarusian_East (EastBelarus) @ 2.08
10 85.5% Italian (Bergamo) + 14.5% Belarusian (Belarus) @ 2.1
11 87.2% Italian (Bergamo) + 12.8% Russians-West (WestRussian) @ 2.14
12 77% Italian (Bergamo) + 23% Slovenian (Slovenia) @ 2.15
13 82.9% Italian (Bergamo) + 17.1% Ukrainian (Ukraine) @ 2.15
14 80.9% Italian (Bergamo) + 19.1% Slovak (Slovakia) @ 2.17
15 84.9% Italian (Bergamo) + 15.1% Russian (CentralRussia) @ 2.17
16 82.2% Italian (Bergamo) + 17.8% Pole (Wroclaw) @ 2.18
17 87.5% Italian (Bergamo) + 12.5% Lithuanian (Lithuania) @ 2.18
18 82.3% Italian (Bergamo) + 17.7% Sorb (Lusatia) @ 2.2
19 85.2% Italian (Bergamo) + 14.8% Ukrainians_east (EastUkraine) @ 2.21
20 88.8% Italian (Bergamo) + 11.2% Latvian_Cesis (Cesis) @ 2.23

So, correct me if I’m wrong, you are half mediterranean (Southern European) and half Northern/Northwestern European?

Part of my family is from southwestern Piedmont (western Cuneo, near Saluzzo), so I’m interested on your results. Thanks!

[Longobarda]

Probably a mix of Italic, Celtic and Germanic.

But there's no ''northern Italy'' as a whole.

Regions like Liguria, Emilia-Romagna, Piemonte, Valle D'Aosta and Toscana are significantly different from regions like Alto-Adige, Lombardia, Friuli-Venezia Giulia. I would say most people in the last three are a mix between Celtic and Germanic, like a Central European population. In the former regions most are a mix between Celtic and Italic (with exception of Toscana, predominantly Italic) and people in these regions are significantly less Germanic influenced and more dark haired/dark eyed than we would expect for Lombardia or Alto-Adige.

Veneto I would say to be a mix of both. I have seen people there with Central European look, but also many Mediterranean types.

First of all, Tuscany is NOT northern italy but central Italy. This is a mistake that I've seen here in TA many times.

Northern Italy is composed by 8 regions (from west to east) Valle d'Aosta, Piemonte, Liguria, Lombardia, Veneto, Trentino & Alto Adige (the second: Sud Tyrol), Friuli Venezia Giulia, Emilia Romagna.

They differ sometimes in phenotype and in DNA, hence Ligurians are a special population, defined "celts" by french scholars because of the identical habits etc. of the celts but not officialy defined celts by italian scholars. There are theories that they could have been a german population of Ambrones. Ligurians have a very high incidence of Haplo Group R1b U152-S28 which came into Italy with Halstatt and La Tène.

70287
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70287&d=1512228900

70288
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70288&d=1512228904

70285
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70285&d=1512227090



70279
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70279&d=1512224925

70280
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70280&d=1512225305
70281
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70281&d=1512225314


Lombardy

70277
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70277&d=1512224376

70271

70275

R1b- U152 in Europe

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70275&d=1512222296

R1b-R-S28 Western Europe
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70271&d=1512220551

LIGURIANS

70282
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70282&d=1512226164

70283
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70283&d=1512226165

70274;
R1b-M169 U106
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70274&d=1512222293

70286

R1b DF27 and L21
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70286&d=1512227092

Haplo R1a

70284
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70284&d=1512227088

[Percivalle]

Ligurians are a special population, defined "celts" by french scholars because of the identical habits etc. of the celts but not officialy defined celts by italian scholars. There are theories that they could have been a german population of Ambrones. Ligurians have a very high incidence of Haplo Group R1b U152-DF28 which came into Italy with Halstatt and La Tène.

What is U152-DF28?

R1b U152 has its own peak in Lombardy according to Boattini, not in Liguria. Of course there are different subclades of U152.



There is a clear north-south gradient for U152 frequency, but it is slight from the Alps to central Italy and the drop-off accelerates in southern Italy. The tested areas with the highest U152 frequencies are Brescia (51.3%) and Cuneo (40%) in northern Italy, followed by Pistoia (38.5%) in Tuscany. Undifferentiated U152(xL2) has a frequency peak in Brescia and Pistoia (38.5%). If small commercial testing is any indication, Brescia’s U152(xL2) is made up largely of Z36 and to a lesser extent, Z56.[5] In Tuscany, Z36 shares its importance with Z56.[6] STR values of DYS385b ≥16 in U152* samples from LaSpezia/Massa (3 of 3) and Pistoia (2 of 5) might indicate high levels of Z56 subclade Z144/Z145/Z146.

L2(xL20) has its highest frequency in La Spezia/Massa (25.0%) and Treviso (24.2%) and L20 has its highest frequency in L’Aquila (3.3%), although if we look at the small pockets of L20 overall, it looks to be somewhat more common in the north than in the south. L2 as a percentage of overall U152 frequency reaches 39.2% on the Italian Peninsula, 25% in Sardinia and 20% in Sicily. This is in contrast to L2 outside of Italy (table 2). In Italy, L2 only makes up a majority of U152 lineages in the north-east region, and is highest in Treviso overall (80.0%). Unfortunately, subclades Z49 and Z367 were not tested in Boatinni’s L2(xL20) samples.

[Longobarda]

The hotspot in Sicily is almost certainly Norman influence. For Bologna i'm not sure but it can be Langobardic settlement.

The Celts Boii were the settlers of Emilia (and Marche, Montefortino) where Bologna is. Monte Bibele with Monterenzio and Casalecchio di Reno are example of celtic settlements in the Appenine near Bologna.
http://www.mondimedievali.net/Barbar/images/celti_italia.gif
According to the ancient authors, the Boii arrived in northern Italy by crossing the Alps. While of the other tribes who had come to Italy along with the Boii, the Senones, Lingones and Cenomani are also attested in Gaul at the time of the Roman conquest. It remains therefore unclear where exactly the Central European origins of the Boii lay, if somewhere in Gaul, Southern Germany or in Bohemia.
Polybius relates that the Celts were close neighbors of the Etruscan civilization and "cast covetous eyes on their beautiful country." Invading the Po Valley with a large army, they drove out the Etruscans and resettled it, the Boii taking the right bank in the center of the valley. Strabo confirms that the Boii emigrated from their lands across the Alps and were one of the largest tribes of the Celts. The Boii occupied the old Etruscan settlement of Felsina, which they named Bononia (modern Bologna).

Monterenzio boian helmet
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70290&d=1512230558

Parma arch. museum boiian helmet
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70289&d=1512230556

Monte Bibele, celtic settlement

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/90/Casa2bibele.jpg/800px-Casa2bibele.jpg

[Longobarda]

What is U152-DF28?

R1b U152 has its own peak in Lombardy according to Boattini, not in Liguria. Of course there are different subclades of U152.

U152 or R-S28 are the same with different names. Yes there are different subclades. I don't know which is the ligurian one. Probably a specific subclade peaks in Liguria

70295

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70295&d=1512233430

70296
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70296&d=1512233433

R-U152 is almost high in all Northern Italy. Lombardy (70%), Trentino and Emilia Romagna (80%) have the highest.

70297
https://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=70297&d=1512233920

[Longobarda]

In reality the map I've shown of Italy may not be specific of R1b U152 but of the various R1b present in Italy. That is what I suppose because I don't remember where I took it and the title was: R1b present in Italy. So it might be the various ones.

[Vid Flumina]

So, correct me if I’m wrong, you are half mediterranean (Southern European) and half Northern/Northwestern European?

It all depends what you mean by Mediterranean, most DNA companies put me roughly at 60% Med and 40% Northwest Europe whatever that means

Gencove
https://s33.postimg.org/g3g7td24f/gencove.png

Dna.Land
https://s33.postimg.org/epexng78f/dna.land.png


Part of my family is from southwestern Piedmont (western Cuneo, near Saluzzo), so I’m interested on your results. Thanks!

My father's side is mostly from the area Savigliano-Fossano-Alba so close enough, but as I mentioned in my previous post I'm only 3/8 Piedmontese.
This specific area however has been covered in Sazzini's paper last year and it basically plots near Central Veneto (Vicenza)

https://images.nature.com/m685/nature-assets/srep/2016/160901/srep32513/images_hires/srep32513-f1.jpg

Here for more details: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?205730-Sazzini-et-al-2016-Italian-population-structure-(PCAs-included-here)

[Longobarda]

What is U152-DF28?

R1b U152 has its own peak in Lombardy according to Boattini, not in Liguria. Of course there are different subclades of U152.

Su, non rompere, avrò sbagliato a scrivere. S28 ovviamente

[Berlko2]

My father's side is mostly from the area Savigliano-Fossano-Alba so close enough, but as I mentioned in my previous post I'm only 3/8 Piedmontese.
This specific area however has been covered in Sazzini's paper last year and it basically plots near Central Veneto (Vicenza)

https://images.nature.com/m685/nature-assets/srep/2016/160901/srep32513/images_hires/srep32513-f1.jpg

Here for more details: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?205730-Sazzini-et-al-2016-Italian-population-structure-(PCAs-included-here)

What I understand from that pic is that Western Cuneo plots Switzerland, doesn’t it? I’m also 3/8 Piedmontese, and if they plot Switzerland it’s interesting because I’m also 1/8 Swiss hahaha

Thanks for the info!

[Longobarda]

And now Germanic DNA

http://orig01.deviantart.net/c1a5/f/2015/033/d/3/germanic_y_dna_combined_haplogroups_by_arminius187 1-d8fztsi.png

[Hamlet]

Are the Italic tribes not just an off-shoot of the Central European Celts?

[Token]

Are the Italic tribes not just an off-shoot of the Central European Celts?

Not really. They were, at some time, one single Italo-Celtic-speaking people but they split very early, probably already during the Bronze Age.

[Hamlet]

Not really. They were, at some time, one single Italo-Celtic-speaking people but they split very early, probably already during the Bronze Age.

Hmm, I do recall in early Roman history, Northern Italy was overrun by the Celts - but I still think Italic tribes would have had a bigger genetic effect.

Also, you're very smart - try this out:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?229038-Post-your-predicted-GenePlaza-intelligence

[Longobarda]

Not really. They were, at some time, one single Italo-Celtic-speaking people but they split very early, probably already during the Bronze Age.

Did you know that some scholars are doubting if also the etruscans were celts? Maybe because of recent discoveries on their DNA that looks to be a continuum of the previous villanovan culture.

[Longobarda]

Those who are voting for "italic" do know who were these italics or they vote them just because we are talking about Italy? Please list the italic populations of northern Italy.

[Token]

Did you know that some scholars are doubting if also the etruscans were celts? Maybe because of recent discoveries on their DNA that looks to be a continuum of the previous villanovan culture.

Any source for that? No one ever considered a Celtic origin and the Etruscan linguistic material resembles nothing those from the Bronze Age Italic and Celtic newcomers. There are some genetic studies and everything suggests that they were heavily Neolithic farmer-derived, sharing haplogroups with Anatolians and Central European Neolithic populations. Etruscan were assimilated by Indo-Europeans during the Iron Age so they most likely adopted the Villanovan 'ways'.

[catgeorge]

I voted for Italic. I see little differences between North and Central Italy and have spent some time in both areas. Both overlap quite largely.

[Longobarda]

I voted for Italic. I see little differences between North and Central Italy and have spent some time in both areas. Both overlap quite largely.

Infact celts were also in Central Italy. In Marche region there were both Senones and Boii. And the phenotype of the persons do not determine if they are celts or not. Your vote should be invalidated (as the one of many other that vote "italic" without knowing what it does mean)

[catgeorge]

Infact celts were also in Central Italy. In Marche region there were both Senones and Boii. And the phenotype of the persons do not determine if they are celts or not. Your vote should be invalidated (as the one of many other that vote "italic" without knowing what it does mean)

Good point but this is the majority in North Italy - as an example the lady is from Milan

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Missoni+Milan+Fashion+Week+Spring+Summer+2012+uQIj EKtI6yZx.jpg

[Longobarda]

Any source for that? No one ever considered a Celtic origin and the Etruscan linguistic material resembles nothing those from the Bronze Age Italic and Celtic newcomers. There are some genetic studies and everything suggests that they were heavily Neolithic farmer-derived, sharing haplogroups with Anatolians and Central European Neolithic populations. Etruscan were assimilated by Indo-Europeans during the Iron Age so they most likely adopted the Villanovan 'ways'.

Unfortunately I red it longtime ago and I did not keep the papers. If I remember well they were british scholars. The last genetic studies say that populations from the Caucasus (maybe also anatolians) were probably settled at about 5.000 b.c. but that is much before the etruscans. The bones and the isolated cities of Etruria (like Murlo or Casentino) say that during the etruscan era they were like the other europeans. As far as I know the villanovan were the ancestors of the etruscan. It could be that during the oriental period they had other waves of invasions but this does not result in the modern "etruscans" or tuscans who almost plot as the cornish of G.B. In reality I don't know how cornish plot.

[Longobarda]

Good point but this is the majority in North Italy - as an example the lady is from Milan

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Missoni+Milan+Fashion+Week+Spring+Summer+2012+uQIj EKtI6yZx.jpg

1) have you asked the lady from Milan what is her surname? If she is completely Lombard or maybe tuscan or whatever else? Not that brunette do not exist in Lombardy, but knowing how many from other regions are living in, better to be sure
2) How do you imagine a "celt"?? If you imagine them blond and blue eyed you might be wrong. Look at Bibracte (France) celtic museum as they represent the celt

[Token]

Unfortunately I red it longtime ago and I did not keep the papers. If I remember well they were british scholars. The last genetic studies say that populations from the Caucasus (maybe also anatolians) were probably settled at about 5.000 b.c. but that is much before the etruscans. The bones and the isolated cities of Etruria (like Murlo or Casentino) say that during the etruscan era they were like the other europeans. As far as I know the villanovan were the ancestors of the etruscan. It could be that during the oriental period they had other waves of invasions but this does not result in the modern "etruscans" or tuscans who almost plot as the cornish of G.B. In reality I don't know how cornish plot.

Tuscans are in no way similar to Etruscans, they are significantly more North-East shifted due to later Indo-European introgression, probably Proto-Italic speakers in their case. In fact, they have one of the highest percentages of Yamnaya admixture in Southern Europe, just below Northern Spaniards and Bulgarians. Etruscans would be probably closer to Sardinians in terms of modern populations considering their heavily Neolithic-derived haplogroups and distinct linguistic affiliation.

[catgeorge]

1) have you asked the lady from Milan what is her surname? If she is completely Lombard or maybe tuscan or whatever else? Not that brunette do not exist in Lombardy, but knowing how many from other regions are living in, better to be sure
2) How do you imagine a "celt"?? If you imagine them blond and blue eyed you might be wrong. Look at Bibracte (France) celtic museum as they represent the celt

If they speak Italian, look Italian, say they're Italian then they must be Italic. Italo-Celts exist in large numbers.. but they are still Italic rather than Celtic IMO.

[Longobarda]

Bibracte celtic museum in France. Representation of celts

http://c8.alamy.com/comp/C1EDK3/france-saone-et-loire-morvan-mont-beuvray-celtic-gallic-civilisation-C1EDK3.jpg

[JohnSmith]

They really do not look that much different from the Southern Italian people here exagerrate the differences way more than they really are. Most Italians have an Italian look which is common among people south of the Alps.

[Token]

Bibracte celtic museum in France. Representation of celts

Pretty realistic, not that romantized version that some people have in mind.

[Longobarda]

If they speak Italian, look Italian, say they're Italian then they must be Italic. Italo-Celts exist in large numbers.. but they are still Italic rather than Celtic IMO.

what is the italian look? Do a person from Piemonte look the same as a person from Sardinia or Sicily? And in any case that does not matter at all in terms of DNA or cultural and historical records. They ARE NOT still italic just because Italy is called Italy. The LATINS were italic. Where were the latins? In northern Italy? As far as we know even the venetans who are not classified as "celts" have a lot of celtic components/habits. Probably the were halstattians due to the manufacts they have found in Veneto, but infact nobody knows if they were akin to slovenjans or to vendi of northern Europe.

So your way of thinking is completely wrong.

[JohnSmith]

what is the italian look? Do a person from Piemonte look the same as a person from Sardinia or Sicily? And in any case that does not matter at all in terms of DNA or cultural and historical records. They ARE NOT still italic just because Italy is called Italy. The LATINS were italic. Where were the latins? In northern Italy? As far as we know even the venetans who are not classified as "celts" have a lot of celtic components/habits. Probably the were halstattians due to the manufacts they have found in Veneto, but infact nobody knows if they were akin to slovenjans or to vendi of northern Europe.

So your way of thinking is completely wrong.

An Italian look is some that has an Italian look usually the Nose.

[Token]

They really do not look that much different from the Southern Italian people here exagerrate the differences way more than they really are. Most Italians have an Italian look which is common among people south of the Alps.

Italy is one of the most genetically heterogeneous European country and the differences are pretty astonishing in terms of admixture and, like we all know, genotype is what defines phenotype. You can expect Northern Italians to look very different from their southern counterparts.

[Longobarda]

They really do not look that much different from the Southern Italian people here exagerrate the differences way more than they really are. Most Italians have an Italian look which is common among people south of the Alps.

Have you ever been here? I don't think you have seen italians of Italy but just sicilians and neapolitans in America

[JohnSmith]

Italy is one of the most genetically heterogeneous European country and the differences are pretty astonishing in terms of admixture and, like we all know, genotype is what defines phenotype. You can expect Northern Italians to look very different from their southern counterparts.

I think it is greatly exaggerated. Southern Italian by themselves alone are a diverse group of people. You can have Southern Italians that fit many different phenotypes and many are similar to the Northern Italian look and vice versa among other people..

Lumping Southern Italy as being one region by itself is silly int he first place.

[Longobarda]

I think it is greatly exaggerated. Southern Italian by themselves alone are a diverse group of people. You can have Southern Italians that fit many different phenotypes and many are similar to the Northern Italian look and vice versa among other people..

Lumping Southern Italy as being one region by itself is silly int he first place.

That may be true for those who had Longobards and Normands. Sicily has had those dominations and you can see blonds and blue eyed. Nevertheless other people are clearly sicilian (even if I don't agree with Sikeliot with their exotic look, except for a very very small part of them). In any case the general features are very different from the northern ones. You made an example of Frank Sinatra. Sinatra had a sicilian father but a ligurian mother. He did not look sicilian at all, so it is not a good example.

Frank Sinatra and his son Ronan

http://www.essentialbaby.com.au/content/dam/images/2/u/x/d/t/image.related.articleLeadwide.620x349.2uxdk.png/1380795043100.jpg

[JohnSmith]

Have you ever been here? I don't think you have seen italians of Italy but just sicilians and neapolitans in America

I have seen many Italian Americans and many of them really do not look any different from the Anglo Americans generally. I had an Italian teacher who was from Milan and she looked no different.

Italian Americans have very diverse looks they do not all look the same.

I am with my Abruzzo Grandparents and my family fits in as any other Anglo American in the USA.
http://b2.ifrm.com/67/29/0/p712621/kid3.jpg

[JohnSmith]

That may be true for those who had Longobards and Normands. Sicily has had those dominations and you can see blonds and blue eyed. Nevertheless other people are clearly sicilian (even if I don't agree with Sikeliot with their exotic look, except for a very very small part of them). In any case the general features are very different from the northern ones. You made an example of Frank Sinatra. Sinatra had a sicilian father but a ligurian mother. He did not look sicilian at all, so it is not a true example.

I have seen Sicilian Americans that look similar to Frank Sinatra. They tend to be shorter and I am not staying they all look that way but you can find ones that do.

[JohnSmith]

That may be true for those who had Longobards and Normands. Sicily has had those dominations and you can see blonds and blue eyed. Nevertheless other people are clearly sicilian (even if I don't agree with Sikeliot with their exotic look, except for a very very small part of them). In any case the general features are very different from the northern ones. You made an example of Frank Sinatra. Sinatra had a sicilian father but a ligurian mother. He did not look sicilian at all, so it is not a true example.

They are Italians first and foremost Norman this and Lombard that is just another way to divide people and I think that is silly. They united Italy so people would not play these division politics just look at Catalan.

[Percivalle]

Good point but this is the majority in North Italy - as an example the lady is from Milan

http://www3.pictures.zimbio.com/gi/Missoni+Milan+Fashion+Week+Spring+Summer+2012+uQIj EKtI6yZx.jpg

Actually she is partially of Dalmatian ancestry as well, Missoni are from Ragusa/Dubrovnik.

[JohnSmith]

Have you ever been here? I don't think you have seen italians of Italy but just sicilians and neapolitans in America

100% Southern Italian American Chris Cuomo again these people exist here in the USA. He looks like any Anglo other Anglo American:

http://static.adweek.com/adweek.com-prod/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/01/Chris-Cuomo.jpg

[Longobarda]

They are Italians first and foremost Norman this and Lombard that is just another way to divide people and I think that is silly. They united Italy so people would not play these division politics just look at Catalan.

Hey, have you an idea of HOW MANY CELTS ENTERED NORTHERN ITALY? I think you don't know at all. They practically populated all the North in term of numbers. The normands in Sicily were in Palermo and in Southern Italy.
I AM NOT PUTTING AGAINST ONE TO ANOTHER, I hope that this is clear to you. But when you insist that does not matter and we are all the same, you are WRONG and I have to tell you. That's it. I defend all my compatriots.

[JohnSmith]

Hey, have you an idea of HOW MANY CELTS ENTERED NORTHERN ITALY? I think you don't know at all. They practically populated all the North in term of numbers. The normands in Sicily were in Palermo and in Southern Italy.
I AM NOT PUTTING AGAINST ONE TO ANOTHER, I hope that this is clear to you. But when you insist that does not matter and we are all the same, you are WRONG and I have to tell you. That's it. I defend all my compatriots.

Who gives a shit. They are Italians.

[Longobarda]

100% Southern Italian American Chris Cuomo again these people exist here in the USA. He looks like any Anglo other Anglo American:

http://static.adweek.com/adweek.com-prod/wp-content/uploads/sites/10/2017/01/Chris-Cuomo.jpg

Cuomo is a campanian surname, not sicilian (as far as I know). Campania does not have the same phenotypes as Sicily. Sorry but you must know that we are not a fotocopy one of the other. We are many different ethnicities/phenotypes.

[Longobarda]

Who gives a shit. They are Italians.

The europeans distinguish themselves one from the other. We have different HISTORY, HABITS, TRADITIONS, PHENOTYPES etc. We are not americans and we don't give a shit of our differences. We know them, appreciate them and like them.

[JohnSmith]

Cuomo is a campanian surname, not sicilian (as far as I know). Campania does not have the same phenotypes as Sicily. Sorry but you must know that we are not a fotocopy one of the other. We are many different ethnicities/phenotypes.

That is what I said , Southern Italians themselves are a diverse group of people. I was not just referring to Sicilians.

[MagnusAurelius]

Hey, have you an idea of HOW MANY CELTS ENTERED NORTHERN ITALY? I think you don't know at all. They practically populated all the North in term of numbers. The normands in Sicily were in Palermo and in Southern Italy.
I AM NOT PUTTING AGAINST ONE TO ANOTHER, I hope that this is clear to you. But when you insist that does not matter and we are all the same, you are WRONG and I have to tell you. That's it. I defend all my compatriots.

You are the one who idiotically claimed R1b-U152 was Germanic before.

[JohnSmith]

The europeans distinguish themselves one from the other. We have different HISTORY, HABITS, TRADITIONS, PHENOTYPES etc. We are not americans and we don't give a shit of our differences. We know them, appreciate them and like them.

I know there are differences but they are exaggerated in my opinion. Italy is diverse and you will find similarities among the Anglo people at least you can based on Italian Americans. If you can find similarities among Anglo and Southern Italians I am sure you can find some with Northern Italians,, nothing is just black and white.

[MagnusAurelius]

Northern Italians are Italo-Celtic , the Celtic tribes were never a unified group ancestrally, they were just united by the common culture. Gallo-Italic, whatever you wanna call it, the poll on here should have had Itallic and Gallic in 1 category. Germanic ancestry in Italy is very low, they were wiped out or bred out of existence or kept at bay in the Northern reaches of North Italy, their tribes could never conquer Italy for a long time and when the Lombards with other allied Germanic tribes did due to their massive Horde, they conquered most of Italy but not all of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_the_Lombards

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire Then the German knock off Roman Empire started, plagued by Germanic Barbarian feudalism and insignificant small Duchy states always fighting with each other.

[Longobarda]

You are the one who idiotically claimed R1b-U152 was Germanic before.

U152 is spread in all Europe, Germany first until UK. Are you so convinced from where this haplo came from? If you are, we must say that we have a Genius
And if you are a MAN, take off that strip from your eyes when you call idiot another person. COWARD.

[Longobarda]

I know there are differences but they are exaggerated in my opinion. Italy is diverse and you will find similarities among the Anglo people at least you can based on Italian Americans. If you can find similarities among Anglo and Southern Italians I am sure you can find some with Northern Italians,, nothing is just black and white.

You cannot take AMERICA like an example. America is the "new world" where everybody from every coutry could come and be named as Citizen. America is a melting pot where people adapted to the general habits. Europe is not the same! In any case the italian-americans may also be mixed up with anglos and vice-versa, then resemble each other. At the moment here we have still differences. If you have never been here you cannot judge. Of course that here as well if one from Sicily marries one from the northern Italy, their children will casually resemble to their father or to their mother, hence mixed-up and get the same habits of the place they live. That's normal. But I am talking about people purely northerner or purely southerner that live in their respective places.
By the way, I repeat again: it does not matter the phenotype to determine if you are celt or german or italic (have you seen that the girl you have posted is of Dalmatian origin?), what it matters is a) DNA b) cultural background.

[JohnSmith]

You cannot take AMERICA like an example. America is the "new world" where everybody from every coutry could come and be named as Citizen. America is a melting pot where people adapted to the general habits. Europe is not the same! In any case the italian-americans may also be mixed up with anglos and vice-versa, then resemble each other. At the moment here we have still differences. If you have never been here you cannot judge. Of course that here as well if one from Sicily marries one from the northern Italy, their children will casually resemble to their father or to their mother, hence mixed-up and get the same habits of the place they live. That's normal. But I am talking about people purely northerner or purely southerner that live in their respective places.
By the way, I repeat again: it does not matter the phenotype to determine if you are celt or german or italic (have you seen that the girl you have posted is of Dalmatian origin?), what it matters is a) DNA b) cultural background.

I am using America as and example of what I am referring too and I would think Southern Italian are closer to Northern Italians than they are of Anlgo-Saxon Americans. That just makes sense.

[Longobarda]

Germanic ancestry in Italy is very low, they were wiped out or bred out of existence or kept at bay in the Northern reaches of North Italy, their tribes could never conquer Italy for a long time and when the Lombards with other allied Germanic tribes did due to their massive Horde, they conquered most of Italy but not all of it.


http://orig01.deviantart.net/c1a5/f/2015/033/d/3/germanic_y_dna_combined_haplogroups_by_arminius187 1-d8fztsi.png

[Longobarda]

I Longobardi furono una popolazione germanica, protagonista tra il II e il VI secolo di una lunga migrazione che la portò dal basso corso dell'Elba fino all'<wbr>Italia. Il movimento migratorio ebbe inizio nel II secolo, ma soltanto nel IV l'intero popolo avrebbe lasciato il basso Elba.

The Longobards were a german population, who during II and IV cent. protagonized a large migration that brought them from the along the low Elba river until Italy. The migration mouvement started in II cent., but only in the IV cent. the entire population had left the low Elba river.

AND THE LONGOBARDS NEVER LEFT ITALY. They are still here!

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/Lombard_Migration.jpg/220px-Lombard_Migration.jpg
http://www.touringclub.it/sites/default/files/styles/tutta_colonna/public/immagini_georiferite/domini_longobardi.jpg?itok=F_0JrA5N

They gave us very precious gifts as these:

https://www.cividale.com/img/tempietto_5.jpg
https://www.cividale.com/img/tempietto_2.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/21/Cividale%2C_museo_cristiano%2C_altare_del_duca_rac his_01.JPG/620px-Cividale%2C_museo_cristiano%2C_altare_del_duca_rac his_01.JPG
http://www.italialangobardorum.it/image/cividale/tegerium_1_.jpg
http://www.italia.it/fileadmin/src/img/cluster_gallery/siti_unesco/potere_longobardi/cividale.jpg
http://www.vieniapavia.it/sites/default/files/styles/slidehp950x/public/itinerario/42/sanmichelecopertina.gif?itok=pTPg2Vs7
http://www.ilgiorno.it/varese/spettacoli/2012/06/05/723857/images/1290812-longobardi.jpg
http://giornalelirpinia.it/images/stories/Irpinia/il%20goleto%201.jpg
http://www.foggiatoday.it/~media/horizontal-hi/54291393383001/sant-agata-di-puglia-6.jpg
http://lnx.comune.ferentillo.tr.it/portale_turistico/data/tiny/immagine/scultura-san-pietro.jpg
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-8LX6xhtiM2o/ViN9u8PZ6fI/AAAAAAAAuI4/el6L6UnFLaw/w5312-h2988/20151017_110702.jpg

[Longobarda]

https://i2.wp.com/www.storiaromanaebizantina.it/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/desiderio-longobardi-680x300.jpg?resize=680%2C300&ssl=1
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/11/Otto_I_Manuscriptum_Mediolanense_c_1200.jpg
http://www.ansa.it/webimages/img_457x/2017/5/24/c4cecb48c8e396531be372949f6450ac.jpg
http://static01.positanonews.it/positanonews/uploads/2017/06/longobardi.jpg
http://www.exibart.com/profilo/imgpost/rev/391/rev44391(1)-ori.jpg
https://percevalasnotizie.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/unnamed.jpg?w=335&h=624
http://forumeditrice.it/cirf-didattica-online/a/img/storia/forum-iulii-croce-gisulfo.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/it/e/e4/Croce_di_adaloaldo%2C_inizio_vii_secolo%2C_22%2C50 x15_cm%2C_monza%2C_museo_serpero.jpg
http://www.studiarapido.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/editto-rotari-3.jpg
https://failavaligiaescappa.files.wordpress.com/2016/12/dsc_0717.jpg
http://www.eventiesagre.it/eventi/21146127/img/combattimento.jpg
http://www.fotodiaries.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/longobardi-nocera-1-di-1-3-683x1024.jpg
https://ilpalazzodisichelgaita.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/az-isola-rizza-i-ezc3bcsttc3a1l5-6-szc3a1zad.jpg

[caviezel]

If Stefano Domenicali was deemed as quintessentially italian I would agree with those who make claims about all Italians looking pretty much the same but usually what they mean is that Italians look borderline ethnic like Bobby Di Cicco.
my bro Domenicali is what I see as italian look

https://www.giornalemotori.com/wp-content/uploads//2014/10/Stefano-Domenicali-sulla-questione-Raikkonen-Alonso.jpg

[GiCa]

Italics were anyway similar to Celts as proved by the common proto-italo-celtic language family

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Celtic

[GiCa]

Probably a mix of Italic, Celtic and Germanic.

But there's no ''northern Italy'' as a whole.

Regions like Liguria, Emilia-Romagna, Piemonte, Valle D'Aosta and Toscana are significantly different from regions like Alto-Adige, Lombardia, Friuli-Venezia Giulia. I would say most people in the last three are a mix between Celtic and Germanic, like a Central European population. In the former regions most are a mix between Celtic and Italic (with exception of Toscana, predominantly Italic) and people in these regions are significantly less Germanic influenced and more dark haired/dark eyed than we would expect for Lombardia or Alto-Adige.

Veneto I would say to be a mix of both. I have seen people there with Central European look, but also many Mediterranean types.

Venetans are pure italics btw

But anyway italics and Celts probably had a proto common ancestor as the above evidences explain

[GiCa]

Northern Italy is the most heterogeneous area of Italy. Liguria was mostly Ligurian (pre IE people with a Celtic-like input); Piedmont, Aosta Valley and Lombardy were Celto-Ligurian; Emilia was Ligurian + proto-Italic (terramare, protovillanovian) + Etruscan; Romagna was Etruscan and Umbrian; Veneto was paleo-Venetic, then Italic; Trentino-Alto Adige a mix of Rhaetians (north-Etruscans) and Celts; Friuli was paleo-Venetic + Celtic. In a second stage there was a historical Gaulish invasion, from 388 BC, stronger in NW Italy (the so-called Cispadana, south of Po river, was heavily settled with Roman and Italic settlers). The Germanic heritage is stronger, obviously, in Alto Adige and other extreme North-Eastern areas but is not "barbarian". Goths and, specially, Lombards have left a superficial legacy not only in the North but in Central-South Italy, and Tuscany, also. Probably the peak of Germanic haplogroups are found in Southern Italy, in areas like Benevento, Campobasso, Palermo and Trapani, even if are founder effects, maybe. In an autosomal sense, Central-Northern Italy is more Germanic than the South, for sure.

Emilia romagna was also Celtics, you are forgetting of the Boii in Emilia and Senones in Romagna

Boii were those famous of Bologna, Boulogne (north France) and Bohemia

[GiCa]

Italic means Latino-Faliscans (+ Venetics) and Osco-Umbrians, ancient peoples basically settled in Central-South Italy. NW Italy and Tuscany had nothing Italic in this sense. In Emilia-Romagna, though, there were the ancestral terramare and proto-villanovian cultures, probably related with proto-Latino-Faliscans. NE Italy could have an Italic heritage, indeed, if the Paleo-Venetics were truly Italics, as modern studies suggest.

Tuscany had an Umbrian (italic) substratus

[GiCa]

My great-grandfather from western Cuneo province (50km from France, in the Piedmont) looked like you but red-haired and with dark blue eyes. My great-grandmother from Alessandria province (eastern Piedmont) was light blonde with blue eyes. Do you think they have more Celtic or Germanic influence in these places? They didn't look "italic", I guess my great-grandfather looked French and my great-grandmother Germanic.

Italics were indieuropean therefore looking not far from germans who were indieuropean too

[GiCa]

Why would Byzantines bring Levantine ancestry? I don't get it. What are you referring to?

Bizantines were Greeks and Greeks-anatolians

[TheForeigner]

None. It's from the pre-Indo-European Med population.

[Vid Flumina]

What I understand from that pic is that Western Cuneo plots Switzerland, doesn’t it? I’m also 3/8 Piedmontese, and if they plot Switzerland it’s interesting because I’m also 1/8 Swiss hahaha

Thanks for the info!

Not really, otherwise Sardinians would plot off the coast of Algeria which is nonsense. The map serves only as reference for the sample provenance (indicated by the colored dots), other than that don't mind it.

If you are 1/8 Swiss Lombard from Ticino, than it's basically as being another 1/8 Piedmontese (see below). Other types of Swiss (French/German/Rumantsch) are a different story though being significantly more Central European

https://i.imgur.com/JgPyu1v.png

[Sizzo]

Lombardy is shifted toward Liguria and Tuscany compared to the rest of the Po Valley. I'm 1/2 Eastern Venetian, 1/8 Aostan and the rest Southwestern Piedmontese; my results should be pretty average for non-lombardic N. Italians, and they consistently seem to require some 15% additional North European to the Bergamo sample for a better fit:

Eurogenes K15
# Population Percent
1 North_Sea 21.97
2 Atlantic 20.44
3 West_Med 19.2
4 East_Med 17.19
5 Baltic 9.06
6 Eastern_Euro 5.56
7 West_Asian 3.55
8 Red_Sea 2.18
9 South_Asian 0.4
10 Siberian 0.31
11 Sub-Saharan 0.14

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 6.74
2 Spanish_Galicia 9.26
3 Portuguese 9.31
4 Tuscan 9.97
5 Spanish_Cataluna 10.45
6 Spanish_Extremadura 10.54
7 Spanish_Murcia 10.78
8 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 11.36
9 French 11.95
10 Serbian 12.7
11 Spanish_Valencia 12.99
12 Spanish_Andalucia 13.1
13 Romanian 13.53
14 Greek_Thessaly 13.6
15 Bulgarian 14.23
16 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 14.25
17 Spanish_Cantabria 14.53
18 Greek 15.61
19 West_Sicilian 15.66
20 Southwest_French 15.69

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 84.2% North_Italian + 15.8% North_Swedish @ 4.83
2 76.4% North_Italian + 23.6% West_German @ 4.86
3 57.9% Spanish_Cataluna + 42.1% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.88
4 61.7% Spanish_Galicia + 38.3% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.88
5 84.1% North_Italian + 15.9% Swedish @ 4.91
6 61.7% Portuguese + 38.3% Greek_Thessaly @ 4.98
7 84.2% North_Italian + 15.8% Norwegian @ 5
8 85.1% North_Italian + 14.9% West_Norwegian @ 5.03
9 86% North_Italian + 14% Finnish @ 5.06
10 63.8% Tuscan + 36.2% West_German @ 5.14
11 79% North_Italian + 21% Hungarian @ 5.15
12 73.8% Tuscan + 26.2% Norwegian @ 5.17
13 75% Tuscan + 25% West_Norwegian @ 5.2
14 85.7% North_Italian + 14.3% Southwest_Finnish @ 5.23
15 88.1% North_Italian + 11.9% Estonian @ 5.27
16 74.3% Tuscan + 25.7% Swedish @ 5.32
17 87.7% North_Italian + 12.3% East_Finnish @ 5.32
18 68.9% French + 31.1% Algerian_Jewish @ 5.33
19 66% Spanish_Galicia + 34% Greek @ 5.36
20 84.9% North_Italian + 15.1% North_Dutch

Eurogenes K13
# Population Percent
1 North_Atlantic 33.36
2 West_Med 22.16
3 East_Med 19.78
4 Baltic 16.17
5 West_Asian 4.69
6 Red_Sea 2.29
7 South_Asian 0.73
8 Siberian 0.62
9 Sub-Saharan 0.22

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 North_Italian 5.58
2 Portuguese 9.02
3 Tuscan 9.72
4 Spanish_Galicia 10.22
5 Spanish_Extremadura 10.23
6 Spanish_Cataluna 10.41
7 Spanish_Murcia 10.64
8 Spanish_Valencia 10.68
9 Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon 11.06
10 French 11.72
11 Spanish_Andalucia 11.82
12 Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha 12.63
13 Romanian 13.08
14 Spanish_Cantabria 13.68
15 Serbian 13.75
16 Bulgarian 14.31
17 Greek_Thessaly 14.8
18 Southwest_French 14.82
19 Spanish_Aragon 15.22
20 West_German 15.69

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 87.3% North_Italian + 12.7% Southwest_Finnish @ 2.92
2 88.7% North_Italian + 11.3% Finnish @ 3.04
3 86.2% North_Italian + 13.8% North_Swedish @ 3.08
4 89.1% North_Italian + 10.9% Estonian @ 3.17
5 79.7% North_Italian + 20.3% Hungarian @ 3.18
6 89.4% North_Italian + 10.6% East_Finnish @ 3.19
7 88.4% North_Italian + 11.6% Belorussian @ 3.22
8 57.8% Spanish_Valencia + 42.2% Bulgarian @ 3.24
9 89.4% North_Italian + 10.6% La_Brana-1 @ 3.25
10 79.3% North_Italian + 20.7% Austrian @ 3.3
11 81.4% North_Italian + 18.6% East_German @ 3.33
12 88.5% North_Italian + 11.5% Estonian_Polish @ 3.37
13 86.1% North_Italian + 13.9% South_Polish @ 3.39
14 58% Spanish_Murcia + 42% Bulgarian @ 3.39
15 89.9% North_Italian + 10.1% Lithuanian @ 3.4
16 87.7% North_Italian + 12.3% Polish @ 3.45
17 88.7% North_Italian + 11.3% Russian_Smolensk @ 3.49
18 55.5% Spanish_Valencia + 44.5% Romanian @ 3.51
19 88.4% North_Italian + 11.6% Southwest_Russian @ 3.52
20 86.2% North_Italian + 13.8% Swedish @ 3.54

MDLP K16 Modern
# Population Percent
1 Neolithic 32.9
2 Caucasian 27.65
3 NorthEastEuropean 18.61
4 Steppe 15.68
5 NorthAfrican 2.17
6 Indian 1.5
7 NearEast 1.48

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Italian (Bergamo) 4.01
2 Italian (Friul) 5.73
3 Corsican (Corsica) 5.9
4 Provencal (Provence) 6.09
5 Swiss (Switzerland) 6.52
6 Italian (NorthIitaly) 6.57
7 Montenegrian (Montenegro) 7.02
8 Romanian (Gorj) 7.09
9 Italian (Tuscany) 7.25
10 Macedonian (Macedonia) 7.35
11 Serbian (Serbia) 7.42
12 Romanian (Apuseni) 7.58
13 Kosovar (Kosovo) 7.64
14 Spanish (Spain) 7.79
15 Spanish (Baleares) 8.02
16 French (EastFrance) 8.21
17 French (NorthwestFrance) 8.41
18 Bulgarian (Bulgaria) 8.5
19 Portuguese (Portugal) 8.72
20 German (Germany) 8.86

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79.5% Italian (Bergamo) + 20.5% Cossack (Zaporozhie) @ 1.73
2 73% Italian (Bergamo) + 27% Bosnian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) @ 1.87
3 73.7% Italian (Bergamo) + 26.3% Croat (Bosnia-Herzegovina) @ 1.93
4 79.1% Italian (Bergamo) + 20.9% Hungarian (Budapest) @ 1.94
5 84.1% Italian (Bergamo) + 15.9% Belarusian_West (WestBelarus) @ 1.97
6 73.9% Italian (Bergamo) + 26.1% Serbian (Bosnia-Herzegovina) @ 2.04
7 83.9% Italian (Bergamo) + 16.1% Ukrainians_north (NorthUkraine) @ 2.07
8 79.5% Italian (Bergamo) + 20.5% Hungarian (Hungary) @ 2.08
9 84.5% Italian (Bergamo) + 15.5% Belarusian_East (EastBelarus) @ 2.08
10 85.5% Italian (Bergamo) + 14.5% Belarusian (Belarus) @ 2.1
11 87.2% Italian (Bergamo) + 12.8% Russians-West (WestRussian) @ 2.14
12 77% Italian (Bergamo) + 23% Slovenian (Slovenia) @ 2.15
13 82.9% Italian (Bergamo) + 17.1% Ukrainian (Ukraine) @ 2.15
14 80.9% Italian (Bergamo) + 19.1% Slovak (Slovakia) @ 2.17
15 84.9% Italian (Bergamo) + 15.1% Russian (CentralRussia) @ 2.17
16 82.2% Italian (Bergamo) + 17.8% Pole (Wroclaw) @ 2.18
17 87.5% Italian (Bergamo) + 12.5% Lithuanian (Lithuania) @ 2.18
18 82.3% Italian (Bergamo) + 17.7% Sorb (Lusatia) @ 2.2
19 85.2% Italian (Bergamo) + 14.8% Ukrainians_east (EastUkraine) @ 2.21
20 88.8% Italian (Bergamo) + 11.2% Latvian_Cesis (Cesis) @ 2.23

15% additional if you tot up the NE results of all these 3 calcs. It must be specified. No way average Piedmont (also with Asti, Alessandria, Biella and Vercelli, not only the Alpine zones), Veneto, Trentino and Friuli, taken individually, are 15% more North European than Bergamo sample (only 13 samples, moreover), or a generic Lombardian sample (Lombardy is even Canton Ticino, Novara and Verbano-Cusio-Ossola...). VdA is clearly shifted toward France. Furthermore, I don't know if every area of Piedmont and Veneto is really more northern than Lombardy. I have some doubt about Verona, Rovigo, Padova, Venice, the Veneto-Friulan lagoons. Liguria, Emilia and Romagna are obviously less NE of Bergamo and Lombardy.

[Sikeliot]

Bizantines were Greeks and Greeks-anatolians

If we mean to say that the Levantine ancestry was brought by Hellenized West Asians, then these people were not Greek by blood. Greek settlers FROM GREECE did not bring Levantine DNA to south Italy, they cannot because they do not have it to bring.

[JohnSmith]

I doubt anyone really views Italians anywhere as Germanics,, they are the ultimate home of the Latin world.

[Token]

Venetans are pure italics btw
Yes, the people that preserved the purest Italic genome together with Tuscans.

[JohnSmith]

Tuscans in America adjusted just fine to Italian American Culture. My Tuscan Great Grandmother Married an Abruzzese and she had her way of cooking but they were still Italian.

[Percivalle]

Tuscans in America adjusted just fine to Italian American Culture. My Tuscan Great Grandmother Married an Abruzzese and she had her way of cooking but they were still Italian.

On the other hand many Tuscans migrated to western US coast where northern Italians migrated. But Tuscans usually feel related only to themselves. Based on the results I've seen on Gedmatch, many Tuscans mixed with American of British stock. Obviously exceptions will exist.

[Percivalle]

None. It's from the pre-Indo-European Med population.

The same is true for Romanians, you're still part of the southern European cluster on average.

[Percivalle]

Not really, otherwise Sardinians would plot off the coast of Algeria which is nonsense. The map serves only as reference for the sample provenance (indicated by the colored dots), other than that don't mind it.

If you are 1/8 Swiss Lombard from Ticino, than it's basically as being another 1/8 Piedmontese (see below). Other types of Swiss (French/German/Rumantsch) are a different story though being significantly more Central European

https://i.imgur.com/JgPyu1v.png

In north Italy there is a difference between Alps and Po Valley, and hardly all the Piedmontese have results similar to those from the Alps.

[JohnSmith]

On the other hand many Tuscans migrated to western US coast where northern Italians migrated. But Tuscans usually feel related only to themselves. Based on the results I've seen on Gedmatch, many Tuscans mixed with American of British stock. Obviously exceptions will exist.

I am not sure how common it really is but my Tuscan Great Grandmother did come here. We have a lot of Abruzzo Italian Americans and they are South Italians, even though my grandparents did consider themselves Central Italian it really doesn't matter to me. The food is different as Abruzzo food is more hardy and Tuscan is more Ragus. But they both eat Rabbit. Tuscans certainly still view themselves as related to other Italians.

Most Italian all over eat rabbit I am sure.

The Napa valley is where the Northern Italians went because of the Wine country there.

[Leto]

On the other hand many Tuscans migrated to western US coast where northern Italians migrated. But Tuscans usually feel related only to themselves. Based on the results I've seen on Gedmatch, many Tuscans mixed with American of British stock. Obviously exceptions will exist.
I read a lot of South Italians assimilated in the North in the previous decades. For example Adriano Celentano was born in Milan to parents from Apulia, as Wikipedia says. His children are not even that swarthy (blame forums like this for the notorious image of a South Italian):
https://files.gossip.it/mondanita/adriano_celentano_benigni/images/rosita_celentano_con_la_sorella_rosalinda_celentan o_1042.jpg
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/giacomo-celentano-during-quelli-che-il-calcio-italian-tv-show-on-21-picture-id97919527?s=612x612

[JohnSmith]

What about the Alps area and the Apennines they both have a lot of Noric and Dinaric people in these areas. It seems like these mountain area are similar in some ways.

[MysteriousWays]

On the other hand many Tuscans migrated to western US coast where northern Italians migrated. But Tuscans usually feel related only to themselves. Based on the results I've seen on Gedmatch, many Tuscans mixed with American of British stock. Obviously exceptions will exist.

I think Italian-Americans of Tuscan descent are mostly in the Midwest and West Coast (well actually most areas outside of the Northeast, although a few are in the Northeast U.S. too). My sense of those of Tuscan descent that I have seen in the U.S., is that most have very strong Tuscan specific pride and don't necessarily feel that connected to other Italian-Americans. We also have a small percentage of Italian-Americans who are of Romagnan descent primarily. I only know a few individuals in this category where I'm from, and most are married to Anglos or to German-Americans.

[JohnSmith]

I read a lot of South Italians assimilated in the North in the previous decades. For example Adriano Celentano was born in Milan to parents from Apulia, as Wikipedia says. His children are not even that swarthy (blame forums like this for the notorious image of a South Italian):
https://files.gossip.it/mondanita/adriano_celentano_benigni/images/rosita_celentano_con_la_sorella_rosalinda_celentan o_1042.jpg
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/giacomo-celentano-during-quelli-che-il-calcio-italian-tv-show-on-21-picture-id97919527?s=612x612

These forums misrepresent Southern Italians a lot,, but some Italians exaggerate the differences also.

The first Woman Nominated as the USA Vice President in any major party was a Southern Italian American from NY and she looks like any other Anglo American:

http://www.videoproject.com/assets/images/DVD%20Covers/Geraldine-Ferraro.jpg

[JohnSmith]

I think Italian-Americans of Tuscan descent are mostly in the Midwest and West Coast (well actually most areas outside of the Northeast, although a few are in the Northeast U.S. too). My sense of those of Tuscan descent that I have seen in the U.S., is that most have very strong Tuscan specific pride and don't necessarily feel that connected to other Italian-Americans. We also have a small percentage of Italian-Americans who are of Romagnan descent primarily. I only know a few individuals in this category where I'm from, and most are married to Anglos or to German-Americans.

The Tuscans like my Tuscan relatives immigrated a long time ago and meshed well with Italian Americans in the Northeast as they saw them as similar.

Some Abruzzo Americans did have issues with Sicilians that is true as I noticed that but generally they got along ok.

[Leto]

These forums misrepresent Southern Italians a lot,, but some Italians exaggerate the differences also.

The first Woman Nominated as the USA Vice President in any major party was a Southern Italian American from NY and she looks like any other Anglo American:


Hollywood has been promoting the same image for decades. Black-haired mafiosi with moustaches and stuff.

[JohnSmith]

Hollywood has been promoting the same image for decades. Black-haired mafiosi with moustaches and stuff.

Don't get me wrong many do look like that but that is not all that they look like they are a diverse group of people. Not all Italian Americans are from Sicily. Many are from other areas.

[Bell Beaker]

In the roman times they were essentialy Romanicized Gauls, but nowdays they must have significant Italic ancestry.

I would say Gallic, but mostly a mix of Gallic and Italic.

[Longobarda]

I read a lot of South Italians assimilated in the North in the previous decades. For example Adriano Celentano was born in Milan to parents from Apulia, as Wikipedia says. His children are not even that swarthy (blame forums like this for the notorious image of a South Italian):
https://files.gossip.it/mondanita/adriano_celentano_benigni/images/rosita_celentano_con_la_sorella_rosalinda_celentan o_1042.jpg
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/giacomo-celentano-during-quelli-che-il-calcio-italian-tv-show-on-21-picture-id97919527?s=612x612

Of course that many people from the South came in northern Italy for working. Celentano is one of them (his parents). By the way, his accent is very milanese being born in Milan, his phenotype is not but we consider him milanese in any case. His children are the "product" of Celentano and his wife, who is from Rome. She is not swarthy at all, instead his children are a mix: the girl on the left is dark, the girl on the right is less dark than the first and has very pale blue-green eyes. His son is in-between: not too dark and with blue eyes.

By the way: Puglia (unlike Celentano) is one of the Southern regions where you can find more light skinned and blue eyed-blond people having a strong DNA contribution from the balkans.
I suspect that Celentano's origins are from inner Puglia, near Campania.

[Leto]

Of course that many people from the South came in northern Italy for working. Celentano is one of them (his parents). By the way, his accent is very milanese being born in Milan, his phenotype is not but we consider him milanese in any case. His children are the "product" of Celentano and his wife, who is from Rome. She is not swarthy at all, instead his children are a mix: the girl on the left is dark, the girl on the right is less dark than the first and has very pale blue-green eyes. His son is in-between: not too dark and with blue eyes.

By the way: Puglia (unlike Celentano) is one of the Southern regions where you can find more light skinned and blue eyed-blond people having a strong DNA contribution from the balkans.
I suspect that Celentano's origins are from inner Puglia, near Campania.
Interesting stuff.
One of the lightest Italians I've seen is actually a South Italian. He's lighter than many Poles!
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/ignazio-abate-poses-during-italy-official-portraits-for-brazil-2014-picture-id495409961?s=612x612

[Percivalle]

I read a lot of South Italians assimilated in the North in the previous decades. For example Adriano Celentano was born in Milan to parents from Apulia, as Wikipedia says. His children are not even that swarthy (blame forums like this for the notorious image of a South Italian):

Of course southern Italians are mostly associated on forums with the darkest ones, but to be honest Celentano's wife is Claudia Mori born in Rome to central Italian parents. So his children are half central Italian.

https://i.imgur.com/Pu6IraA.jpg


Interesting stuff.
One of the lightest Italians I've seen is actually a South Italian. He's lighter than many Poles!
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/ignazio-abate-poses-during-italy-official-portraits-for-brazil-2014-picture-id495409961?s=612x612

Abate is indeed fully southern Italian.

[Longobarda]

Effectively, I had a look and Celentano is a surname of Campania, Cilento area. Probably Celentano means "from Cilento" (which would be Cilentano)

[Hamlet]

Interesting stuff.
One of the lightest Italians I've seen is actually a South Italian. He's lighter than many Poles!
http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/ignazio-abate-poses-during-italy-official-portraits-for-brazil-2014-picture-id495409961?s=612x612

He is virtually exactly how I imagine the proto-Greeks/Bronze and Classical Age Greek ruling class would have looked - I reckon he's a remnant from Greek settlement of the Magna Graecia, even though only a minority would have looked like him/the mural below (from Sicily, Roman era):

https://johndenugent.com/images/roman-women-white-blond-body-bulding-sports-mural.jpg

[Longobarda]

He is virtually exactly how I imagine the proto-Greeks/Bronze and Classical Age Greek ruling class would have looked - I reckon he's a remnant from Greek settlement of the Magna Graecia, even though only a minority would have looked like him/the mural below (from Sicily, Roman era):

https://johndenugent.com/images/roman-women-white-blond-body-bulding-sports-mural.jpg

These above are not greeks but ROMANS

[Longobarda]

The second daughter of Celentano has played the role of Satan in the mouvie "the passion of the Christ", directed by Mel Gibson. Her eyes may be from her mother who is roman.

http://news.cinecitta.com/photo.aspx?s=1&w=850&path=%2Fpublic%2Fimport%2Fnews%2Fdocumenti%2Fimmag ini%2Ftamtam%2Ffoto%2F2002%2F2%2Frcelentano.jpg
http://www.ansa.it/webimages/img_457x/2014/11/9/4c8a1552cdf0850f6958c28191275ce5.jpg

[Hamlet]

These above are not greeks but ROMANS

I am aware, I even specified it as such.

The people would still have been mainly of Greek stock from the ex-Magna Grecia.

[Longobarda]

The wife of Celentano some years ago. Definitely her daugher took her eyes (or from maternal family)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_6cmSDALdUAM/So0J0ozzs9I/AAAAAAAAF4U/BuTgk93r1AU/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/claudiamori_02.jpg

here when she was fiftheen. This is her original hair colour. Then she dyed her hair darker.

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/the-italian-actress-claudia-mori-born-claudia-moroni-fifthteen-years-picture-id461743867?s=612x612

[GiCa]

yes, she s for sure natural blonde.. one has to look at eyebrows

but she s way more good looking with dark hair

[JohnSmith]

My Aunt 100% South Italian(Abruzzo) she has reddish hair and fits well within Anglo Americans,, no one looks at her twice. Also very educated and she goes to visit relatives in L'Aqulia on occasion.

http://b2.ifrm.com/67/29/0/p712681/auhat.jpg

[JohnSmith]

The wife of Celentano some years ago. Definitely her daugher took her eyes (or from maternal family)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_6cmSDALdUAM/So0J0ozzs9I/AAAAAAAAF4U/BuTgk93r1AU/w1200-h630-p-k-no-nu/claudiamori_02.jpg

here when she was fiftheen. This is her original hair colour. Then she dyed her hair darker.

http://media.gettyimages.com/photos/the-italian-actress-claudia-mori-born-claudia-moroni-fifthteen-years-picture-id461743867?s=612x612

Could be the lighting also. She looks just Italian nothing special. Just call yourself a Catalan, :D.

[GiCa]

that s light brown hair, not red

[JohnSmith]

that s light brown hair, not red

I know but has reddish undertones. You people are really too much and I am so glad my ancestors left Italy.

[Hamlet]

that s light brown hair, not red

It's copper-coloured

[JohnSmith]

Again we are on 15 pages of nonsense.

[JohnSmith]

Why are people debating hair color as if it really matters South and Northern Italians both can have either hair color,, this is just dumb.

[JohnSmith]

Southern Italian Noric,,, Mayor of L'Aqulia Massimo Cialente. Again the south is diverse all over no one should just stereotype.

http://www.abruzzoweb.it/uploaded_files_2/i-270-215-massimocialente25.jpghttp://www.abruzzoweb.it/uploaded_files_1/i-270-215-massimocialente12.jpg

[Percivalle]

I know but has reddish undertones. You people are really too much and I am so glad my ancestors left Italy.

We celebrate the day your ancestors left, it's now a national day in Italy.

C'mon, as you didn't know how this forum works. What the fuck you're doing here.

[JohnSmith]

We celebrate the day your ancestors left, it's now a national day in Italy.

C'mon, as you didn't know how this forum works. What the fuck you're doing here.

Yes, it just never ends because new people join and say the same shit that has been discounted over and over again.

[Percivalle]

Yes, it just never ends because new people join and say the same shit that has been discounted over and over again.

It's the eternal return.

[JohnSmith]

It's the eternal return.

Ironic since Rome is the Eternal City.

[Leto]

Italy and Greece will stop being discussed as soon as Sikeliot disappears.

[Longobarda]

Other who do not correspond to the stereotype:

from NAPLES, Serena Autieri
http://ilportfolio.letteraturaoperaomnia.org/resources/serena_autieri/img020.jpg

from TUSCANY, Vittoria Puccini
http://www2.pictures.stylebistro.com/pc/Italian+actress+Vittoria+Puccini+poses+photographe rs+Ue8rQUbf2tzx.jpg

from SICILY, Eva Riccobono
http://gallery.cdn.tiscali.it/repository/1152/650x468/1151808.jpg

from ROME, Claudia Gerini
https://mr.comingsoon.it/imgdb/persone/37860_ico.jpg

from EMILIA (appenines), Isabella Ferrari
http://www.allure.it/download/2015/06_2015/news/isabella-ferrari/ferrari-thumb.jpg

from ROME, Carolina Crescentini
https://st.kp.yandex.net/im/kadr/9/5/5/kinopoisk.ru-Carolina-Crescentini-955523.jpg

from ROME, Cristiana Capotondi
https://immagini.quotidiano.net/?url=http://p1014p.quotidiano.net:80/polopoly_fs/1.3181886.1496898608!/httpImage/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/wide_680/image.jpg&h=350&w=606

from MILANO, Matilde Gioli
http://www.buro247.sg/images/beauty/Venice-Film-Festival-Matilde-Gioli-eyeliner.jpg

from MARCHE, Virna Lisi
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-PpAzgcNu74Y/VJWlZWM-ZzI/AAAAAAAAFD8/g4vr8n-ufws/s1600/Virna%2BLisi.jpg

from ROME, Giorgia Meloni
http://www.ilgaladellapolitica.it/j2016/images/2016/affissioneIstituzionali/16ZRM00M11.jpg

from EMILIA, Miss Italia Martina Colombari (and her LOMBARD husband Alessandro Costacurta)
http://www.mentelocale.it/images/articoli/full/49906-1.jpg
http://www.gossipetv.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/martina-colombari-billy-costacurta.jpg

from PIEMONTE, Cristina Chiabotto and NEAPOLITAN boy friend Fabio Fulco
https://www.consumatrici.it/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/a-chiabotto-si.jpg
http://rumors.it/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Chiara-Chiabotto-1000x600.jpg

from ROME (both), Paolo Bonolis e Sonia Bruganelli
https://www.sologossip.it/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/sonia-bruganelli-e-paolo-bonolis.jpg

From LOMBARDY (exactly from my area) Francesco Facchinetti and his father
http://www.lagazzettaiblea.it/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/facchinetti.jpg

From NAPLES, Raul Bova
http://images.unadonna.it/2015/07/raoul-bova-e1436451345548.jpg

etc. etc. etc. too many

[Longobarda]

Southern Italian Noric,,, Mayor of L'Aqulia Massimo Cialente. Again the south is diverse all over no one should just stereotype.

http://www.abruzzoweb.it/uploaded_files_2/i-270-215-massimocialente25.jpghttp://www.abruzzoweb.it/uploaded_files_1/i-270-215-massimocialente12.jpg

I have a better major from South than yours. This one is in Sicily and is called Primo Lillo Firetto

http://www.infoagrigento.it/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Lillo-Firetto.jpg

[Berlko2]

Not really, otherwise Sardinians would plot off the coast of Algeria which is nonsense. The map serves only as reference for the sample provenance (indicated by the colored dots), other than that don't mind it.

If you are 1/8 Swiss Lombard from Ticino, than it's basically as being another 1/8 Piedmontese (see below). Other types of Swiss (French/German/Rumantsch) are a different story though being significantly more Central European

https://i.imgur.com/JgPyu1v.png

In that case I’m not another 1/8 Piedmontese because my 1/8 Swiss is German Swiss from Valais (from Obergoms area). They were for sure more central European (Germanic).

[Hamlet]

Other who do not correspond to the stereotype:

from NAPLES, Serena Autieri
http://ilportfolio.letteraturaoperaomnia.org/resources/serena_autieri/img020.jpg

etc.



Jesus Christ woman will you shut the fuck up!

[JohnSmith]

In that case I’m not another 1/8 Piedmontese because my 1/8 Swiss is German Swiss from Valais (from Obergoms area). They were for sure more central European (Germanic).

I have a Swiss German Uncle and Cousins and my Uncle whom is Swiss German actually looks very Italian ,, has dark hair and large Dinaric Nose.

[Hamlet]

I have a Swiss German Uncle and Cousins and my Uncle whom is Swiss German actually looks very Italian ,, has dark hair and large Dinaric Nose.

The Swiss have a pretty decent Dinaric influence, as populations tend to survive more in mountainous environments (so the invading Celts and later Germanic tribes couldn't easily have wiped them out, and so mixed with them)

[JohnSmith]

The Swiss have a pretty decent Dinaric influence, as populations tend to survive more in mountainous environments (so the invading Celts and later Germanic tribes couldn't easily have wiped them out, and so mixed with them)

Yes and the Swiss Dinarics look a lot like the Italian Dinarics.

[JohnSmith]

The Swiss have a pretty decent Dinaric influence, as populations tend to survive more in mountainous environments (so the invading Celts and later Germanic tribes couldn't easily have wiped them out, and so mixed with them)

Many Germans are Dinarics also in South Germany and Austria. Mozart was Dinaric.

[Hamlet]

Many Germans are Dinarics also in South Germany and Austria. Mozart was Dinaric.

Well, Norid, but close enough.

But yeah, that's for the same reason - South Germany is mountainous, and the Dinarids that moved in there weren't easily cleared out by invading tribes as they would have been more easily on flatter land.

[JohnSmith]

Well, Norid, but close enough.

But yeah, that's for the same reason - South Germany is mountainous, and the Dinarids that moved in there weren't easily cleared out by invading tribes as they would have been more easily on flatter land.

There are Norids in Central Italy in the Apennines mountains also. My aunt's ancestry is Abruzzo Mountains and she is Norid.

There are Dinarids and Norids in these mountainous areas not all Southern Germans and Austrians are Norids many are just Dinaric from the photos I have seen of Mozart he looked very Dinaric I suppose he might of been Norid.

[MysteriousWays]

There are Norids in Central Italy in the Apennines mountains also. My aunt's ancestry is Abruzzo Mountains and she is Norid.

There are Dinarids and Norids in these mountainous areas not all Southern Germans and Austrians are Norids many are just Dinaric from the photos I have seen of Mozart he looked very Dinaric I suppose he might of been Norid.

In southern Germany, there is both, although Norids are probably a bit more common.

[JohnSmith]

In southern Germany, there is both, although Norids are probably a bit more common.

Yes that is true may also depend on the area. Mozart I really am not sure if he is Dinaric or Norid to be honest.

[Vid Flumina]

15% additional if you tot up the NE results of all these 3 calcs. It must be specified. No way average Piedmont (also with Asti, Alessandria, Biella and Vercelli, not only the Alpine zones), Veneto, Trentino and Friuli, taken individually, are 15% more North European than Bergamo sample (only 13 samples, moreover), or a generic Lombardian sample (Lombardy is even Canton Ticino, Novara and Verbano-Cusio-Ossola...). VdA is clearly shifted toward France. Furthermore, I don't know if every area of Piedmont and Veneto is really more northern than Lombardy. I have some doubt about Verona, Rovigo, Padova, Venice, the Veneto-Friulan lagoons. Liguria, Emilia and Romagna are obviously less NE of Bergamo and Lombardy.

As per Sazzini even fairly northern places like Como plot with Southern Veneto and not that far off from Savona.

Of course, I don't expect Rovigo to plot north of Bergamo given its position 80km from Bologna nor do I envisage particularly sharp differences between Alessandria/Vercelli and Western Lombardy. I never implied the contrary.



In north Italy there is a difference between Alps and Po Valley, and hardly all the Piedmontese have results similar to those from the Alps.

Maybe, but the overwhelming majority of people lives in the valley.

[GiCa]

Swiss are almost the same of North Italians

Geography is not an opinion

[Berlko2]

I have a Swiss German Uncle and Cousins and my Uncle whom is Swiss German actually looks very Italian ,, has dark hair and large Dinaric Nose.

Yes! Something similar happens in my case. My Swiss side is brown-haired to red-haired with brown/green eyes and have a droopy nose. My Italian (Piedmontese) sides (3 different sides), on the other hand, are: red-haired with blue eyes and light blond with blue eyes and have a nordic turn-up nose.They are much lighter than my Swiss side.

People tend to believe the opposite.

[Longobarda]

In that case I’m not another 1/8 Piedmontese because my 1/8 Swiss is German Swiss from Valais (from Obergoms area). They were for sure more central European (Germanic).

In 1882 Professor Arturo Galanti had ventured the figure of 100,000 German inhabitants in the foothills from Piedmont (west) to Friuli (east) (excluding South Tyrol not yet part of Italy), a number that is in no way justified by the immigration of medieval settlers and miners, but assumed a more ancient presence.In the years 1180 to 1318 at least 28 of 36 mayors of Conegliano Veneto were of German origin

So, you are a Walser:

The Walser are the speakers of the Walser German dialects, a variety of Highest Alemannic they call Tisch. They inhabit the Alps of Switzerland and Liechtenstein, as well as Italy and Austria. The Walser people are named after the Wallis (Valais), the uppermost Rhône valley, where they settled from roughly the 8th century in the late phase of the migration of the Alamanni, crossing from the Bernese Oberland.

The Walser migrated into Italy approx in the 10th cent. In Piemonte I know walser people from where I used to go on vacation during winter time. I.e. Ossola valley and surroundings.

In Italy, there are 13 communities that were settled by the Walser migration more. These are: Gressoney-La-Trinité, Gressoney-Saint-Jean, Saint Jacques, Champdepraz, Gettaz-des-Allemands, Fussé (higher val d'Ayas) and Issime (Lys Valley, in the Aosta Valley); in Piemonte: Formazza, Macugnaga, Ornavasso, Migiandone, Valle Strona, Campello Monti, (Val d'Ossola), Rima San Giuseppe, Carcoforo, Premio, Salecchio, Agaro (Valle Antigorio), Valsesia, Riva Valdobbia, Rimella (Sesia Valley or Valsesia, in Vercelli province).
Their languages is a particular variety of the highest alamannic and is similar to the german-swiss dialect in its most archaic form.

The most known varieties of the Tisch in Italy are the Titsch of Gressoney-Sain-Jean (Val D'Aosta), the Töitschu of Issime (Val d'Aosta) and the Titzchu of Alagna Valsesia and Rimella in Valsesia, Vercelli (Piemonte).

Walser settlements in northwestern Italy
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c4/Walser_Italien.JPG/800px-Walser_Italien.JPG

[Longobarda]

Jesus Christ woman will you shut the fuck up!

Why should I shut up my mouth? What has Jesus Christ to do here with me? I was born catholic, but I am not a believer, just to point out. But if I were, what matters with you? Do you think you are a superior being because you are a jew?
Coward, you thumb my "reputation" down adding that I am idiot! You are in all the posts writing stupid opinions and you ask other people to shut up? I put a cross on you. You are a dead walking body. Get lost and don't talk to me anymore.

[Hamlet]

Why should I shut up my mouth? What has Jesus Christ to do here with me? I was born catholic, but I am not a believer, just to point out. But if I were, what matters with you? Do you think you are a superior being because you are a jew?
Coward, you thumb my "reputation" down adding that I am idiot! You are in all the posts writing stupid opinions and you ask other people to shut up? I put a cross on you. You are a dead walking body. Get lost and don't talk to me anymore.

?????

What his this got to do with Jewish supremacy? I just told you to shut up, not to suck my dick

[Tauromachos]

These above are not greeks but ROMANS

No matter what they are they look certainly different from that guy.
It doesn't matter if they have light hairs look at their faces.

[Longobarda]

No matter what they are they look certainly different from that guy.
It doesn't matter if they have light hairs look at their faces.

I did not matter about their hair, but I know that the ancient villa which hosts those mosaics is roman, built in roman times. This is why.

[Longobarda]

No matter what they are they look certainly different from that guy.
It doesn't matter if they have light hairs look at their faces.

By the way, I looked at their faces but I did not see something special. Please explain to me. Thanks
Anyway, that villa is very famous, its name is "Villa del Casale" near Piazza Armerina (Enna). I visited it myself some years ago and has many mosaics more than this one, different styles as the authors were different. IV cent. a.d. The mosaic of the girls in bikini is bigger than that photo, is a pavement build over another one which can be seen in the upper right corner. Here the complete photo

https://i0.wp.com/www.culturamente.it/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/villa-romana-del-Casale-mosaici-ragazze-in-bikini.jpg

and these are more mosaics of the villa (all of them on the ground)

https://i2.wp.com/www.famedisud.it/wp-content/uploads/vilalcasale1.jpg

https://thumbs.dreamstime.com/z/mosaic-fragment-roman-villa-romana-del-casale-23544167.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Transport_d%27animaux_exotiques%2C_villa_de_Casale %2C_Piazza_Armerina%2C_Sicile%2C_Italie.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Retiarius_vs_secutor_from_Borghese_mosaic.jpg
https://www.wishsicily.com/img_slider/21_villa-romana-del-casale-piazza-armerina.jpg
http://www.crumbs-on-travel.com/wp-content/gallery/piazza-armerina/IMG_1311.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/55/SCENA_DI_CACCIA-.jpg
http://static.naukas.com/media/2010/09/gerunda1.jpg

[JohnSmith]

Yes! Something similar happens in my case. My Swiss side is brown-haired to red-haired with brown/green eyes and have a droopy nose. My Italian (Piedmontese) sides (3 different sides), on the other hand, are: red-haired with blue eyes and light blond with blue eyes and have a nordic turn-up nose.They are much lighter than my Swiss side.

People tend to believe the opposite.

Italy is just very diverse and that applies to Southern and Northern Italy you will find dark and light people all over up and down the country if you look hard enough. We I have Swiss German Cousins and they really do not loo much different from my Italian family.

[GiCa]

Piazza Armerina is a great picture of our past to see that they looked very similar to us

[GiCa]

I have been there

I remember feeling very emotional to walk in thatroman floor

[Tauromachos]

Italy is just very diverse and that applies to Southern and Northern Italy you will find dark and light people all over up and down the country if you look hard enough. We I have Swiss German Cousins and they really do not loo much different from my Italian family.

A part of Swiss people has Italian ancestry.

[Longobarda]

Italy is just very diverse and that applies to Southern and Northern Italy you will find dark and light people all over up and down the country if you look hard enough. We I have Swiss German Cousins and they really do not loo much different from my Italian family.

Nice photo of your Avatar. Finalmente!

[Longobarda]

A part of Swiss people has Italian ancestry.

I suppose you refer to Canton Ticino. Of course. We speak the same gallo-italic dialect. The difference is that they still use it daily, instead us the lombards are using it less and less. In the Swiss TV news you can hear people interviewed speaking dialect. You can find my surname, which is typical milanese, also in Switzerland and many ticinese surnames are the same as in Lombardy.

[Tauromachos]

I suppose you refer to Canton Ticino. Of course. We speak the same gallo-italic dialect. The difference is that they still use it daily, instead us the lombards are using it less and less. In the Swiss TV news you can hear people interviewed speaking dialect. You can find my surname, which is typical milanese, also in Switzerland and many ticinese surnames are the same as in Lombardy.

Yes interesting thanks
Νο i tell this from Swiss people i personaly know and they had ancestors from Italy in their families
even pure Italian surnames.

They were French Swiss

[Ariana2018]

I think many northern Italians are quite mixed. I have northern Italian ancestry on both sides of my family, who come from the area surrounding the town of Asiago in the province of Vicenza, Veneto.

My DNA ancestry results were surprising to say the least. I thought I would come out as mainly northern Italian, with a few other influences. My results, however, were:
100% European, comprising:
47% Northern Italy
25% Europe West
19% Scandinavian
6% Great Britain
3% Europe East.

So it looks like I'm a mutt!

I'd be interested to find out what results other people with northern Italian ancestry got.

[Vid Flumina]

I think many northern Italians are quite mixed. I have northern Italian ancestry on both sides of my family, who come from the area surrounding the town of Asiago in the province of Vicenza, Veneto.

My DNA ancestry results were surprising to say the least. I thought I would come out as mainly northern Italian, with a few other influences. My results, however, were:
100% European, comprising:
47% Northern Italy
25% Europe West
19% Scandinavian
6% Great Britain
3% Europe East.

So it looks like I'm a mutt!

I'd be interested to find out what results other people with northern Italian ancestry got.

Hi Ariana, have you uploaded to gedmatch? If not please do, I'm collecting results from all provinces and Asiago should be interesting because of its Cimbrian influences.
I have one sample from Conco di Vicenza and it is unlike any other North Italian I've seen so far, plotting very close to Tyroleans.

[Ariana2018]

Hi Ariana, have you uploaded to gedmatch? If not please do, I'm collecting results from all provinces and Asiago should be interesting because of its Cimbrian influences.
I have one sample from Conco di Vicenza and it is unlike any other North Italian I've seen so far, plotting very close to Tyroleans.

I have uploaded to Gedmatch, but they give lots of different types of information, so I'm not sure what would be most useful. One set of results showed the following:

West European: 39.45%
Mediterranean : 32.37%
East European: 10.48%
West Asian: 13.47%
Southwest Asian: 3.57%

The Cimbrian influence is an interesting one. I believe they were originally from Jutland in Denmark, which would explain my Scandinavian result.

[Vid Flumina]

I have uploaded to Gedmatch, but they give lots of different types of information, so I'm not sure what would be most useful. One set of results showed the following:

West European: 39.45%
Mediterranean : 32.37%
East European: 10.48%
West Asian: 13.47%
Southwest Asian: 3.57%

The Cimbrian influence is an interesting one. I believe they were originally from Jutland in Denmark, which would explain my Scandinavian result.

Let's see your Eurogenes K15, I'll take a closer look at where you fall compared to other Cimbrians as well as other Germanic minorities I have from both Veneto and Friuli.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

Italian most definitively. I've seen one who even scored 100% Italian ancestry on 23andme.

[Bosniensis]

Northern Italians namely Langobards, are more related to Ragnar Lothbrok and Vikings.

For they conquered Italy in a Large Numbers... from the far Northern regions initially.

The Origo Gentis Langobardorum tells the story of a tribe dwelling in southern Scandinavia :o

Northern Italians have little to none connection with Italy.

[Ariana2018]

Let's see your Eurogenes K15, I'll take a closer look at where you fall compared to other Cimbrians as well as other Germanic minorities I have from both Veneto and Friuli.

Hi,
My Eurogenes K15 results are:
North Sea - 23.81
Atlantic - 23.85
Baltic - 11.59
Eastern Euro - 3.32
West Med - 16.1
West Asian - 8.05
East Med - 12.25
Red Sea - 0.76
Oceanian - 0.26
I'd be interested to see what you find!
Thanks,
Ariana.

[Percivalle]

I've seen one who even scored 100% Italian ancestry on 23andme.

That's quite unlikely. Fake results for sure. Only someone who has been used as a reference sample for Italian component can score 100%. But even in this case it is unlikely, because the reference sample on 23andme for the Italian component is composed of many samples, not just one.

[Brás Garcia de Mascarenhas]

That's quite unlikely. Fake results for sure. Only someone who has been used as a reference sample for Italian component can score 100%. But even in this case it is unlikely, because the reference sample on 23andme for the Italian component is composed of many samples, not just one.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/italicroots/imageproxy.php?url=http://i969.photobucket.com/albums/ae173/Imperatore_01/ScreenShot2012-12-08at10838AM.png

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/italicroots/imageproxy.php?url=http://i969.photobucket.com/albums/ae173/Imperatore_01/ScreenShot2012-12-07at35632PM.png

[Vid Flumina]

Hi,
My Eurogenes K15 results are:
North Sea - 23.81
Atlantic - 23.85
Baltic - 11.59
Eastern Euro - 3.32
West Med - 16.1
West Asian - 8.05
East Med - 12.25
Red Sea - 0.76
Oceanian - 0.26

I'd be interested to see what you find!

Thanks,
Ariana.

You ("Ar" in this scatterplot) seem to cluster very close to the Cimbrian average:

https://s18.postimg.org/dau04gl15/k15arianna2018.png

Slightly up north you can spot that Cimbrian individual from Conco (very close to Asiago) who probably overlaps with some South Tyroleans.

I noticed that Cimbrians cluster more west compared to other Germanic minorities, almost like a South German/Tyrolean population heavily admixed with something Lombard-like.
On the other hand Germanic minorities in Friuli like those from Timau, Sauris and especially Sappada look essentially like Venetians/Furlans but with significant Austrian/Slovenian input.

[Percivalle]

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/italicroots/imageproxy.php?url=http://i969.photobucket.com/albums/ae173/Imperatore_01/ScreenShot2012-12-08at10838AM.png

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/italicroots/imageproxy.php?url=http://i969.photobucket.com/albums/ae173/Imperatore_01/ScreenShot2012-12-07at35632PM.png

I repeat, it's quite unlikely.

[Dandelion]

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/italicroots/imageproxy.php?url=http://i969.photobucket.com/albums/ae173/Imperatore_01/ScreenShot2012-12-08at10838AM.png

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/italicroots/imageproxy.php?url=http://i969.photobucket.com/albums/ae173/Imperatore_01/ScreenShot2012-12-07at35632PM.png

Just like Percivalle I also highly suspect it's fake. :p If it were real, he should share his picture on a forum. How does an über-Italian look like? The things a person asks himself. :)

[Percivalle]

Hi Ariana, have you uploaded to gedmatch? If not please do, I'm collecting results from all provinces and Asiago should be interesting because of its Cimbrian influences.
I have one sample from Conco di Vicenza and it is unlike any other North Italian I've seen so far, plotting very close to Tyroleans.




I noticed that Cimbrians cluster more west compared to other Germanic minorities, almost like a South German/Tyrolean population heavily admixed with something Lombard-like.
On the other hand Germanic minorities in Friuli like those from Timau, Sauris and especially Sappada look essentially like Venetians/Furlans but with significant Austrian/Slovenian input.

Cimbrians have mixed with neighbouring populations according to the paper from which those samples come from. In fact all the surnames of that man from Conco di Vicenza aren't even of Cimbrian origin. According to the paper Cimbrians show weakest signal of isolation compared to others groups. Sappada, Sauris and Timau can have a genetic drift due to stronger isolation.


Moving on from groups to single populations, we observed the strongest signals of isolation in Sauris and Sappada (...) By contrast, the weakest signal of isolation is provided by the Cimbrians, who show the lowest values for all measures (...) A high level of genetic drift can be observed for the entire Sardinian branch, and, even more pronounced for single German-speaking islands of Sappada, Sauris and Timau. Interestingly, the Cimbrians from Lessinia are more closely related to the Northern Italians and are located in the tree upstream to all northern and western European populations. (...) A breakdown of the cultural barrier might account for the behavior of Cimbrians. In fact, only a limited number of individuals is today able to use the Cimbrian language, a situation in contrast with the persistence of the original linguistic features in other German speaking communities. This form of cultural assimilation, which started in the middle of the 16th century, probably increased the permeability of Cimbrians to gene flow from neighbouring populations.


In the case of the German-speaking islands, signals of heterogeneity among populations seem to prevail. Sappada, Sauris and Timau were found to be clearly different from each other both regarding intra and inter-population diversity. High genetic distances among Sauris, Sappada and Timau have already been observed with unilinear markers9, a pattern that is probably associated with the occurrence of a form of social behaviour which we termed “local ethnicity”. Despite their closely related languages and shared traditions, members of Alpine linguistic islands tend to identify their ancestry with their own village rather than considering themselves as part of the same ethnic group9. Such strong territoriality when defining ethnic identities and boundaries may have played a role in marriage strategies, decreasing the genetic exchange among the three linguistic islands. This “isolation among isolates” might have also led to the genomic structure of each of them evolving independently.

[Vid Flumina]

Cimbrians have mixed with neighbouring populations according to the paper from which those samples come from. In fact all the surnames of that man from Conco di Vicenza aren't even of Cimbrian origin. According to the paper Cimbrians show weakest signal of isolation compared to others groups. Sappada, Sauris and Timau can have a genetic drift due to stronger isolation.


Moving on from groups to single populations, we observed the strongest signals of isolation in Sauris and Sappada (...) By contrast, the weakest signal of isolation is provided by the Cimbrians, who show the lowest values for all measures (...) A high level of genetic drift can be observed for the entire Sardinian branch, and, even more pronounced for single German-speaking islands of Sappada, Sauris and Timau. Interestingly, the Cimbrians from Lessinia are more closely related to the Northern Italians and are located in the tree upstream to all northern and western European populations. (...) A breakdown of the cultural barrier might account for the behavior of Cimbrians. In fact, only a limited number of individuals is today able to use the Cimbrian language, a situation in contrast with the persistence of the original linguistic features in other German speaking communities. This form of cultural assimilation, which started in the middle of the 16th century, probably increased the permeability of Cimbrians to gene flow from neighbouring populations.


In the case of the German-speaking islands, signals of heterogeneity among populations seem to prevail. Sappada, Sauris and Timau were found to be clearly different from each other both regarding intra and inter-population diversity. High genetic distances among Sauris, Sappada and Timau have already been observed with unilinear markers9, a pattern that is probably associated with the occurrence of a form of social behaviour which we termed “local ethnicity”. Despite their closely related languages and shared traditions, members of Alpine linguistic islands tend to identify their ancestry with their own village rather than considering themselves as part of the same ethnic group9. Such strong territoriality when defining ethnic identities and boundaries may have played a role in marriage strategies, decreasing the genetic exchange among the three linguistic islands. This “isolation among isolates” might have also led to the genomic structure of each of them evolving independently.

Alright but how do you explain the relative short distance between eastern Veneto (Motta di Livenza) and the genetic islands in Friuli, despite their isolation? Local ethnicity must have occurred after they mixed with the local northeasterners.

[Journeyman26]

Italic I should think. I am 50% N/C Italian, and score 37% Italian and ~10.2% "North Euro". Now, my Mom has done 23andMe, and I know that the N Euro and Italian come from my fathers side. If you roughly extrapolate from my data, my dad should score 80-85% Italian, ~15-20% N.Euro - percentages could change based on independent assortment and actual location of heritable segments on my dads chromosomes.

https://i.imgur.com/HDr5eEn.png

[Vid Flumina]

How does an über-Italian look like? The things a person asks himself. :)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWRUJHlOS4w

[Percivalle]

Alright but how do you explain the relative short distance between eastern Veneto (Motta di Livenza) and the genetic islands in Friuli, despite their isolation? Local ethnicity must have occurred after they mixed with the local northeasterners.

Was that PCA made by you? Because also Sappada, Sauris and Timau mixed a lot with local people from Friuli, and Motta di Livenza is only few kilometers far away from the border between Veneto and Friuli.


Italic I should think. I am 50% N/C Italian, and score 37% Italian and ~10.2% "North Euro". Now, my Mom has done 23andMe, and I know that the N Euro and Italian come from my fathers side. If you roughly extrapolate from my data, my dad should score 80-85% Italian, ~15-20% N.Euro - percentages could change based on independent assortment and actual location of heritable segments on my dads chromosomes.

Your father should score no more than 70% Italian on 23andme, he is in the 50-70% range.

http://i.imgur.com/sRhb03A.png

[Ariana2018]

Thanks so much for this information - very interesting! I've heard the theory that the Cimbrians came to Asiago about 1000 years ago from Bavaria, so it makes sense. DNA testing seems to support this.

I would love to see more results on this scatter graph once you have them - especially from other people who come from Asiago and neighbouring towns like Roana, Foza, Cesuna, Tresche Conca, Rotzo, etc. Please post!


You ("Ar" in this scatterplot) seem to cluster very close to the Cimbrian average:

https://s18.postimg.org/dau04gl15/k15arianna2018.png

Slightly up north you can spot that Cimbrian individual from Conco (very close to Asiago) who probably overlaps with some South Tyroleans.

I noticed that Cimbrians cluster more west compared to other Germanic minorities, almost like a South German/Tyrolean population heavily admixed with something Lombard-like.
On the other hand Germanic minorities in Friuli like those from Timau, Sauris and especially Sappada look essentially like Venetians/Furlans but with significant Austrian/Slovenian input.

[Vid Flumina]

Was that PCA made by you? Because also Sappada, Sauris and Timau mixed a lot with local people from Friuli, and Motta di Livenza is only few kilometers far away from the border between Veneto and Friuli.

Yes I made that PCA using some of the Public Alpine DNA Gedmatch Kits List (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jFK2HhQFBdjPAXyQ6Z00hMPywaXK2McUNQ2Xib7ngzU/edit?usp=sharing) samples. I only included people with 4/4 grandparents from the same area to have a clearer picture of the intraregional variation.



http://i.imgur.com/sRhb03A.png

In these map charts, yet again in agreement with my previous observations, Lombardy seems to have a different pattern compared to the rest of Northern Italy. They are really not very different from Northcentral Italians like Ligurians, Northern Tuscans and Emilians.
They are supposed to be mostly Gallicized, later Romanized, Ancient Ligurians same as Piedmont, plus additional Germanic input from the Langobards. However they happen to have instead the strongest affinity for the Italian/Southern Euro component out of all populations living north of the Po, as well as the the weakest for Central and Northern Europe.

[Token]

I think many northern Italians are quite mixed. I have northern Italian ancestry on both sides of my family, who come from the area surrounding the town of Asiago in the province of Vicenza, Veneto.

My DNA ancestry results were surprising to say the least. I thought I would come out as mainly northern Italian, with a few other influences. My results, however, were:
100% European, comprising:
47% Northern Italy
25% Europe West
19% Scandinavian
6% Great Britain
3% Europe East.

So it looks like I'm a mutt!

I'd be interested to find out what results other people with northern Italian ancestry got.

19% Scandinavian is pretty high for a Northern Italian, did you test with which company?

[Robocop]

My guess is most of their ancestry is from the pre-Roman Gaulish population.

Mostly Its true but I would say North Italians are combination of Gaulish, Roman and Germanic people, all Romanized ofcourse AKA; Romans, AKA; North Italians of today.

[Ariana2018]

19% Scandinavian is pretty high for a Northern Italian, did you test with which company?

I tested with DNA Ancestry. I believe the high Scandinavian component comes from my Cimbrian ancestors, who settled the area around Asiago about 1000 years ago and were originally thought to come from Jutland in Denmark. I'm confident the results are accurate because a number of my relatives have also been tested - all with exactly the same northern Italian alpine ancestry as me - and they all got a high Scandinavian result (some even higher than mine).

[JohnSmith]

I tested with DNA Ancestry. I believe the high Scandinavian component comes from my Cimbrian ancestors, who settled the area around Asiago about 1000 years ago and were originally thought to come from Jutland in Denmark. I'm confident the results are accurate because a number of my relatives have also been tested - all with exactly the same northern Italian alpine ancestry as me - and they all got a high Scandinavian result (some even higher than mine).

Europeans are closer to each other than many people think.

[Token]

I tested with DNA Ancestry. I believe the high Scandinavian component comes from my Cimbrian ancestors, who settled the area around Asiago about 1000 years ago and were originally thought to come from Jutland in Denmark. I'm confident the results are accurate because a number of my relatives have also been tested - all with exactly the same northern Italian alpine ancestry as me - and they all got a high Scandinavian result (some even higher than mine).

Did you had any notion that you possibly got Cimbrian ancestors before dna tests?

[dperucca]

Was that PCA made by you? Because also Sappada, Sauris and Timau mixed a lot with local people from Friuli, and Motta di Livenza is only few kilometers far away from the border between Veneto and Friuli.



Your father should score no more than 70% Italian on 23andme, he is in the 50-70% range.

http://i.imgur.com/sRhb03A.png

That is a lot of genetic variation in one country if that map is accurate :-)

[Cuoppo]

Gallo-Italic

[Ariana2018]

Did you had any notion that you possibly got Cimbrian ancestors before dna tests?

Yes, of course. My grandparents and great grandparents spoke Cimbrian. I even know a few words myself (not many!).

[Percivalle]

Yes I made that PCA using some of the Public Alpine DNA Gedmatch Kits List (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jFK2HhQFBdjPAXyQ6Z00hMPywaXK2McUNQ2Xib7ngzU/edit?usp=sharing) samples. I only included people with 4/4 grandparents from the same area to have a clearer picture of the intraregional variation.

E i valori dei Cimbri, Sappada, Sauris e Timau da dove l'hai presi?




In these map charts, yet again in agreement with my previous observations, Lombardy seems to have a different pattern compared to the rest of Northern Italy. They are really not very different from Northcentral Italians like Ligurians, Northern Tuscans and Emilians.
They are supposed to be mostly Gallicized, later Romanized, Ancient Ligurians same as Piedmont, plus additional Germanic input from the Langobards. However they happen to have instead the strongest affinity for the Italian/Southern Euro component out of all populations living north of the Po, as well as the the weakest for Central and Northern Europe.

Nel nord Italia esiste una differenza tra la pianura padana e le Alpi. Le Alpi sono più conservative di valori continentali. Forse l'impatto delle Alpi è più forte su Piemonte e Veneto che sulla Lombardia (considera che a nord la Lombardia confina con il Canton Ticino e i Grigioni). Ma non tutti i piemontesi e veneti hanno valori da Alpi. Ho visto risultati di persone del Monferrato e del Polesine che erano molti simili ai lombardi.

[Vid Flumina]

E i valori dei Cimbri, Sappada, Sauris e Timau da dove l'hai presi?

Da Ibericus, credo provengano da diversi studi (incluso quello da te citato):

https://image.ibb.co/e2DePw/ita.png



Nel nord Italia esiste una differenza tra la pianura padana e le Alpi. Le Alpi sono più conservative di valori continentali. Forse l'impatto delle Alpi è più forte su Piemonte e Veneto che sulla Lombardia (considera che a nord la Lombardia confina con il Canton Ticino e i Grigioni). Ma non tutti i piemontesi e veneti hanno valori da Alpi. Ho visto risultati di persone del Monferrato e del Polesine che erano molti simili ai lombardi.

Guardando la foto (http://www.ilfogliettone.it/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/pianura_padana_2016.jpg) dal satellite tuttavia si può notare come in realtà Bergamo/Brescia non sono più lontane dalla zona "conservativa" rispetto a Motta di Livenza o Treviso, anzi. Ma quale che sia la regione (eccetto Valle d'Aosta e Trentino), il 90% circa della popolazione risiede in pianura e probabilmente è sempre stato così anche storicamente.
Detto questo, se sul Veneto ho un'idea abbastanza chiara anche in termini di substruttura, sul Piemonte ho diverse zone d'ombra e mi posso solo basare sulle (esecrabili) medie per regione di Gedmatch. Se hai risultati o kit piemontesi con relativa area di provenienza per favore postali.

[caviezel]

I tested with DNA Ancestry. I believe the high Scandinavian component comes from my Cimbrian ancestors, who settled the area around Asiago about 1000 years ago and were originally thought to come from Jutland in Denmark. I'm confident the results are accurate because a number of my relatives have also been tested - all with exactly the same northern Italian alpine ancestry as me - and they all got a high Scandinavian result (some even higher than mine).the cimbrian dialect was already extinct in 1800 except for a part of the population of Roana. The 1901 survey reported 56% of the families in Roana spoke cimbrian but I believe it was exaggerated, it was likely much less than that because the language underwent a rapid regression and it's now extinct as well in Roana. The Cimbrians are closer to Venetians than to Austrians genetically, they are certainly not pure germans by any extent even though they have a higher mitteleuropean input.

https://image.ibb.co/f6zh7v/Pahli.png

[brennus dux gallorum]

What do you think pure Gaulish people looked like in relation to the modern Euro peoples today?

Like southern French, if we consider that early medieval germanic admixture made modern French population as more northern looking than in the past

[Vid Flumina]

Like southern French, if we consider that early medieval germanic admixture made modern French population as more northern looking than in the past

We already have RISE471 from Middle Bronze Age Southern Germany (Untermeitingen), so a decent proxy of pre-Halstattian proto-Celts. Coverage isn't high but he plots near modern Auvergnat/Limousin French.

[Ariana2018]

the cimbrian dialect was already extinct in 1800 except for a part of the population of Roana. The 1901 survey reported 56% of the families in Roana spoke cimbrian but I believe it was exaggerated, it was likely much less than that because the language underwent a rapid regression and it's now extinct as well in Roana. The Cimbrians are closer to Venetians than to Austrians genetically, they are certainly not pure germans by any extent even though they have a higher mitteleuropean input.

https://image.ibb.co/f6zh7v/Pahli.png

The Cimbrian dialect is not quite extinct. There is a small town, Luserna, not far from Roana, where everyone still speaks it; quite an interesting place to visit. The people of Asiago and surrounding towns are not the original 'Cimbrians', however. It is believed that the original Cimbrians settled in the area around 1,000 years ago and came down from Bavaria, but were originally from Jutland in Denmark. Over time, they mixed with northern Italians, so the people of the 'Altopiano di Asiago' are most likely a mix of the two. Of course, these may just be theories, but my DNA Ancestry results show that I am around 47% Northern Italian, with the rest being a mix of Western European and Scandinavian, plus a little British, so it makes sense.

[wvwvw]

The Lombards were the decedents of Longho and Bardus II who ruled France in about 1523 BC and 1516 BC respectively. The Franks were descended from Francio or Francus the son of Hector the son of Priam who ruled in 1181 BC as were the Celts and the Gauls who he was also king over. The German Franks were descended from a later Francio who was the son of Hector II and reigned in about 1100 BC.

The Franks like the kings of Britain from Brutus all originated from Troy and were the descendents of the Trojan Greeks and Phrygians who the Achaeans and Danaioi allowed to escaped and provided free passage to after Troy was captured. The name Frankus or Franco the name of their first king is a corruption of Phrygus written in Linear B, where P/PH/F were all interchangeable and K/G/J (English J) were all interchangeable. The Scarasons called the Franks the Franji, and this indicates the original pronunciation of Franks as French. If you add the Greek ending -ians to French you get Frenchians which is the same as Phrenjians or Phrygians. All of the original Frankish kingdoms started out in the Balkans above the Macedonian Greeks which is why the Macedonians said the Phrygians were the neighbours.

Lombardy was originally in France and France was originally in the central Balkans with the Franks and by Hellenistic times was by the river Sane.

[brennus dux gallorum]

We already have RISE471 from Middle Bronze Age Southern Germany (Untermeitingen), so a decent proxy of pre-Halstattian proto-Celts. Coverage isn't high but he plots near modern Auvergnat/Limousin French.

So, I was right :D.

[Vid Flumina]

So, I was right :D.

Check his position on K36 map, his affinity seems higher with central/northwestern French and Swiss Germans before any southerner:

https://i.imgur.com/xCLiO61.png

And this is where he plots in K15:

https://i.imgur.com/QRt0b7x.png

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 62.9% Irish + 37.1% Sardinian @ 6.94
2 68.1% Southwest_English + 31.9% Sardinian @ 7.23
3 61.9% West_Scottish + 38.1% Sardinian @ 7.26
4 65.5% Southeast_English + 34.5% Sardinian @ 7.37
5 61.4% Orcadian + 38.6% Sardinian @ 7.53
6 61.7% North_Dutch + 38.3% Sardinian @ 7.91
7 81.7% Spanish_Cantabria + 18.3% West_Norwegian @ 7.99
8 82% Spanish_Cantabria + 18% Swedish @ 8.07
9 81.8% Spanish_Cantabria + 18.2% Norwegian @ 8.15
10 74.4% Spanish_Cantabria + 25.6% Southwest_English @ 8.15
11 80.2% Spanish_Cantabria + 19.8% North_Dutch @ 8.22
12 76.4% Spanish_Cantabria + 23.6% West_German @ 8.24
13 80.7% Spanish_Cantabria + 19.3% Orcadian @ 8.29
14 78.1% Spanish_Cantabria + 21.9% Southeast_English @ 8.35
15 80% Spanish_Cantabria + 20% Irish @ 8.36
16 79.5% Southwest_French + 20.5% West_Norwegian @ 8.37
17 72.3% Southwest_French + 27.7% West_German @ 8.4
18 81.1% Spanish_Cantabria + 18.9% West_Scottish @ 8.42
19 71.1% Southwest_French + 28.9% Southwest_English @ 8.49
20 82.4% Spanish_Cantabria + 17.6% Danish @ 8.51


Here he falls somewhere between Basque and northwestern French. He looks to me more west-central (Poitou-Charentes/Limousin) than southern French.

[Alessio]

This is my updated splitview:

http://i68.tinypic.com/6t1v68.jpg


Was that PCA made by you? Because also Sappada, Sauris and Timau mixed a lot with local people from Friuli, and Motta di Livenza is only few kilometers far away from the border between Veneto and Friuli.



Your father should score no more than 70% Italian on 23andme, he is in the 50-70% range.

http://i.imgur.com/sRhb03A.png

[Percivalle]

Check his position on K36 map....

Uno svizzero-francese nel K15, prova a vedere dove plotta nella tua PCA

North_Sea 25.06
Atlantic 23.38
Baltic 10.59
Eastern_Euro 6.62
West_Med 15.34
West_Asian 7.25
East_Med 9.38
Red_Sea 0.94
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.56
Oceanian 0.88
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

[Vid Flumina]

Uno svizzero-francese nel K15, prova a vedere dove plotta nella tua PCA

North_Sea 25.06
Atlantic 23.38
Baltic 10.59
Eastern_Euro 6.62
West_Med 15.34
West_Asian 7.25
East_Med 9.38
Red_Sea 0.94
South_Asian -
Southeast_Asian -
Siberian -
Amerindian 0.56
Oceanian 0.88
Northeast_African -
Sub-Saharan -

https://i.imgur.com/sdT4h2n.png

Sai anche che parte della svizzera romanda?

[Percivalle]

https://i.imgur.com/sdT4h2n.png

Sai anche che parte della svizzera romanda?

Canton Vaud.

[gıulıoımpa]

lightly complexed northern Italians shifts from:
- Gaul/Celtic ancestry in the north-west
- a mix of Gaul/Celtic + Germanic in the North,
- Dinaro-Nordid in the North-east.

[guerrilla]

Italicized Gallic