Poland-Germany border, most interesting thing ever

[War Chef]

http://i.imgur.com/aG2WzGh.jpg

So on one side you have workaholic lunatics, superior when it comes to practical things (that's why their Blitz decimated Poland) on the other side you have more mellow people, Slavs. The genetic difference between Poland & Germany is huge. There is a big gap & no overlap (unless they have Prussian ancestry).

http://i.imgur.com/Tz4A8hA.jpg

[Peterski]

There is overlap between Eastern Germans (especially Prussian** and Sachsen*) and Western Poles. But you have to remember, that West Poles don't live immediately behind the German border. Also Lusatian Sorbs - native Slavic population in Brandenburg and Saxony - cluster fully with ethnic Poles.

*German_Lipsian is a sample from Sachsen (Leipzig). They are very Slavic-shifted.

**By Prussian Germans I mean all Germans from the east of the Oder-Neise line.

===============

According to the PCA you posted, Slovaks (SK) cluster with Italians (IT).

This is outdated PCA from 2004.


The genetic difference between Poland & Germany is huge.

Maybe huge but still smaller than between Northern Italy and Southern Italy.

And that is within one country, with no any political borders between them:

http://racialreality.altervista.org/padania/index_files/north-south.png

http://s12.postimg.org/g2nbvdzrh/Wyrwa.png

http://s18.postimg.org/dmn4d8s4p/Wyrwa3.png

Between Slovenia and North-East Italy there is also a huge genetic difference.

Between Albania and South Slavs there is also a huge genetic difference.

===============

Borders of Poland after WW1 and WW2:

http://www.geographiapolonica.pl/article/item/7563.html

http://rcin.org.pl/igipz/Content/28362/WA51_46563_r2012-t85-no1_G-Polonica-Eberhardt.pdf

More about borders of Poland after WW1:

http://dziemiela.com/personal/documents/Spis_Ludnosci_1919.pdf

https://s14.postimg.org/wkqt042fz/Poland_after_WW1_P_O.jpg

https://s14.postimg.org/wkqt042fz/Poland_after_WW1_P_O.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/sx4lhac.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/IxW26IY.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/PDfY3aE.jpg

[War Chef]

Without Prussia the genetic gap between the two would be even bigger & more pronounced. The genetic exchange was big (as far as I know, even every Polish member on TA has German ancestry)..... & the other way around too because when Prussians emigrated back to Germany they were water-downed (i.e. mixed with Poles) & they brought it back into Germany.

Yes there is also other minor things like Slavic tribes (Obotrites) being in East-Germany, but for the most part Poles & Germans are very different.

Not my part of the world but still really interesting.

[Peterski]

According to Fichte's description below Lower Silesian "Germans" are totally Polish:

They just happen to speak German (but an incomprehensible dialect of German):

http://i.imgur.com/w7Cdf1M.png

===================

Here is a message I got from Bob Krampetz when I asked him about his ancestry:

Bob Krampetz is an ethnic Eastern German with all of his ancestors from Poland:

I invited Bob to Living DNA's German Project, but he cannot join because some of his ancestors were from Congress Poland, not Kingdom of Prussia (but they were Germans nonetheless):


Peter, Wie gehts

​All my German ancestors were born in Poland, not Germany.
From ~1750 to 1906, when my grandfather left, none were closer to Germany than Torun (Thorn).

Russia was in control of much of the area of current day Poland and Lithuania after the partitions of the 18th century. Nearly all of my ancestors were born in, what is today called "Dobrinland"

After an uprising, around 1860, was put down - Russia declared their sector of Poland was then part of Russian. Also that only the Russian language was to be used.

My Grandfather's, Gustav Krampitz 1881 Barany [Lipno], birth document as well as all his siblings documents were written in Russian.

When he and other siblings emigrated to the U.S., their manifests stated "country of origin: Russia". They'd say they were from "Russia" on documents, until the 'cold war' of the 1950's. Then they said "Poland".

Prior to the late 1800's, I find church documents were in Latin (when listed at a Catholic church - even though they were evangelical) or in Polish, when entered at an Evangelic church.

I have only one German document, a 1794 marriage in the Torun area, of my 3xGreat grandparents written in old German. That document gave me much grief as people able to translate German were at a loss trying to decipher many of the old word meanings.

East Europe areas that today are likely being acceptable as 'German' are likely East & West Prussia. There was a period that some called the Russian Partition "South Prussia", but that wasn't widely accepted.

I have not fully understood where the German speaking and Evangelic (Lutheran) people originated. I've read that Sweden invaded Poland in the 16th century, and that many 'Hollanders' were invited into Poland to tame their swampland. But I find little Genetic connection of the Eastern Europe Germans and long-time ancestry of Germans from areas in today's Germany.

I've read that the largest 'ethnic' group in today's United States, is German. But my research shows that most Germans came from Eastern Europe, specifically Poland! They have "Russia" as their country of origin on their Ellis Island manifests.

I certainly would like to learn more of how so many Germans came to populate the East Europe lands.

I should learn more of DNA genome matching, I only know that all the "Matches" the different companies with my genome tell me of - are just 'dead ends'

Bob Krampetz

And this map shows the genetic affinities of Bob Krampetz:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?212315-Eastern-Germans-in-Eurogenes-K36&p=4451155&viewfull=1#post4451155

http://i.imgur.com/DHFyJvk.jpg

[War Chef]

The Germans living abroad before ww2 were mixed. Clearly the males could not keep their hands off local women. The president of Germany in the 90's Horst Köhler was a Bessarabian German & can pass as Ukrainian...... I think.

http://i.imgur.com/wMmMqSR.jpg

[Peterski]

Genetically, Bob Krampetz is more eastern than me - even though nearly all of his ancestors had German surnames (check his GEDCOM) and nearly all of my ancestors had Slavic surnames.


Germans living abroad before ww2 were mixed. Clearly the males could not keep their hands off local women.

My mother's maiden surname is German, my father's surname is Slavic. Among my 16 great-great grandparents there is at least 1 German surname (which is my mom's maiden name).

But I found people with all German surnames who are genetically Slavic:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?212315-Eastern-Germans-in-Eurogenes-K36&p=4463811&viewfull=1#post4463811


http://i.imgur.com/cMFoBfi.jpg

Her ancestors (16 great-grea-grandparents) were from:

14/16 Prussia (including 2/16 East Prussia), 1/16 Thuringia, 1/16 Saxony:

http://i.imgur.com/n2ExaaO.png

Surnames of her 16 great-great-grandparents:

Steinbach, Liebenau, Kopiske, Hedke, Lück, Zimmermann, Voss, Hasse, Hass, Eichstädt, Neumann, Schulz, Scheffler, Gnoss, Schmeisser, Feustel

[War Chef]

Genetically, Bob Krampetz is "more eastern" than me - even though nearly all of his ancestors had German surnames, and nearly all of my ancestors had Slavic Polish surnames.



My mother's maiden surname is German, my father's surname is Slavic.

As far as I know among my 16 great-great grandparents there is 1 German surname.

But I found people with all German surnames who are genetically Slavic:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?212315-Eastern-Germans-in-Eurogenes-K36&p=4463811&viewfull=1#post4463811

Can you post pictures of some Polish-Germans? What an interesting hybrid.

This stuff is interesting it's like mixing Rotweiler dog with Husky dog :D. Always some cool (& pretty) results.

[Peterski]

Can you post pictures of some Polish-Germans?

There is absolutely no such thing in my region.

Everyone in my area identifies as Polish, but we have people with German surnames among ancestors and there are many people with German surnames in my area. I come from Greater Poland:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rota_(poem)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Września_children_strike


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mCfMy5fT_Q


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6-poUU6Rac

[Peterski]

I have a book published in 2008 in Poznań at 100th anniversary of the Greater Poland Uprising of 1918.

It has a list of 2289 surnames of soldiers (2284 men and 5 women) who died while liberating the region from German occupation in 1918-1919. There are surprisingly many German surnames among those people who fought and died against Germany.

Nobody wanted to be a Volksdeutsch dog in my region:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-BVApZimRH8

[Peterski]

If you identify as German, you will get expelled, dog.

[War Chef]

Don't be afraid to go off-topic. I'm not some German tard who follows all the rules. They have an obsession with "Ordnung". My style has always been to just wing-it & freestyle as I go. :cool: Must be a Slavic thang.

[Peterski]

Can you post pictures of some Polish-Germans

Most of Germans in Poland are Germanized Slavs, as their autosomal results prove.

The so called "Ostsiedlung" was mostly expansion of language, not of people.

Y-DNA also shows that Lower Silesia was dominated by Slavic R1a:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?217854-Are-Germans-the-most-mixed-people-in-Europe&p=4568708#post4568708

https://s31.postimg.org/m55t8jgor/Map_Silesia.png

In several Projects of Family Tree DNA I've gathered all samples from people born before WW2 in Silesia.

Most of these men lived in the 19th, 18th, early 20th, but some in the 17th, 15th, one even died in the 12th century.

In total I have found 100 Y-DNA samples from descendants of pre-war inhabitants of Silesia. Here we go:

Sample/kit # - place of origin of most distant ancestor, ancestor's SURNAME (last SNP tested):

I1-M253 haplogroup - 13 samples from Silesia:

kit #372952 - Silesia, RAUTENBERG (M253+)
kit #E14316 - Żagań, VON NAUMANN (Z58+)
kit #N11115 - Stary Kisielin/Zielona Góra, LIEHR (Z58+)
kit #468007 - Boronów, BULLA (S2077/S2078+)
kit #91645 - Dąbrówka Dolna, WELNA (Z63+)
kit #119162 - Kobyla Góra, MAGNUSKI (L1237+)
kit #188658 - Pietrzykowice, BIALEK (S2078+)
kit #228663 - Karvina, KOPEL (Z140+)
kit #268090 - Rokliny, FRANKE (M253+)
kit #115240 - Stobrawa, DEUTSCHER (Z2336/L22+)
kit #N37278 - Wrocław, DEMSKE (M253+)
kit #167103 - Sośnicowice/Tarnowskie Góry, BOTUR (Z63+)
kit #155178 - Kłodzko, ROSENBERGER (Z140+)

J2-M172 haplogroup - 5 samples from Silesia:

kit #B27771 - Suszec, JURECZKO (Z631+)
kit #278599 - Wrocław, GABEL (M92+)
kit #N27660 - Zabrze, NN (M172+)
kit #N45394 - Silesia, GILL (FGC21360+)
kit #66138 - Wrocław, ZWIEFKA (L283+)

E1b1b haplogroup - 4 samples from Silesia:

kit #E18170 - Sternalice, STEINERT (PF1975+)
kit #83418 - Racibórz, FIEGLER (V13+)
kit #233387 - Krasne Pole (Ostrava), HONHEISER (V13+)
kit #155147 - Lubin, SEIFLEIN (V13+)

G2a haplogroup - 3 samples:

kit #285720 - Gliwice, BEIDEL (Y8903+)
kit #231079 - Uszyce, KOWALSKI (P15+)
kit #265686 - Lutomia Górna, POHL (L13/L78+)

N1c haplogroup - 3 samples:

kit #N49541 - Rydułtowy, MEISEL (L1025+)
kit #N107445 - Złotoryja, NOWAK (Y4706+)
kit #E11197 - Górki, BLACH (L1025+)

G2b haplogroup - 2 samples:

kit #123331 - Bolesławiec, BRODA, (M377+)
kit #72341 - Podkamień, ADER (M377+)

J1 haplogroup - 2 samples:

kit #77418 - Praszka, GUTFRAJND (Z18271+)
kit #N13360 - Pszczyna, WARZECHA (P58+)

I2a haplogroup - only 1 sample:

kit #300972 - Laskówka, SCHINDLER (CTS5966+)

T haplogroup - 1 sample:

kit #161332 - Zielona Góra, SCHÜTZ (P322+)

Q haplogroup - 1 sample:

kit #89372 - Mikołów, DE KRUPPA (L275+)

R1b-M269 haplogroup - only 11 samples from Silesia:

kit #227479 - Cieszyn, FIEDLER (M269+)
kit #E1877 - Lower Silesia, QUADE (M269+)
kit #E2541 - Ludwigsthal, SCHIRM (U106, S10185+)
kit #132073 - Kotulin Mały, KORUS (M269+)
kit #B4978 - Ostrava, SELIGA (U152, DF103+)
kit #422423 - Oława, KARPEL (U152, Z49+)
kit #N89895 - Żagań, SCHULZ (U106+)
kit #N114363 - Nowa Sól, SCHMIDT (P312, DF99+)
kit #E4911, E14624 - Kolsko, LEFEBER (P312, L21+)
kit #N11619 - Okunin, SCHILLING (M269+)
kit #176123 - Gliwice, KONIECZNY (Z2103, BY593+)

===========================
===========================

R1a haplogroup - 54 samples from Silesia:

kit #464408 - Osina Mała, KUBE (M512+)
kit #40132 - Zielona Góra, WEDERICH (M417+)

Branch R1a-L664:

kit #277963 - Siemianowice Śląskie, KORFANTY (L644+)

Branch R1a-Z280:

kit #156577 - Stronie Śląskie, SZCZEPANEK (M417+, Z280?)

Z92:

kit #192545 - Głubczyce, SALZMANN (Z280>Z92+)

CTS1211:

kit #164946 - Lubliniec, SCHEMBOR (Z280>CTS1211?)
kit #249444 - Błotnica Strzelecka, MAXELON (Z280>CTS1211?)

YP343:

kit #N38418 - Krzyżowa, BULAWA (Z280>CTS1211>YP343*)

YP380:

kit #N116699 - Ochaby, STANIEK (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380*)
kit #295227 - Warszowice, LASSEK (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>YP371>YP372>YP380?)

P278.2:

kit #E5412 - Opole, KLEEMANN (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2+)
kit #N35951 - Ostrava, NN (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2+)
kit #163780 - Niewiesze, KOCUR (Z280>CTS1211>YP343>YP340>P278.2+)

CTS3402>YP237:

kit #465642 - Bładnice Górne, GAZDA (Z280, CTS3402>YP237+)
kit #161130 - Wrocław, PFEILER (Z280, CTS3402>YP237>YP235?)
kit #302244 - Frydek-Mistek, NOWAK (Z280, CTS3402>YP237>YP951, YP1018+)

CTS3402>Y33:

kit #210950 - Legnica, HAMANN (Z280, CTS3402>Y33, YP4335*)
kit #N17626 - Katowice, SOBALLA (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>Y2898>Y2902+)

S18681:

kit #E8695 - Wrocław, MASUR (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681)
kit #N156262 - Wrocław, WIANCKO (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681, YP314+)
kit #329518 - Brody (Pförten), KAKOSCHKE (Z280, CTS3402>Y33>CTS8816>S18681, YP314>YP1409+)

Branch R1a-M458:

Clade L260:

kit #188725 - Mysłowice, PATALONG (M458, L260?)
kit #349840 - Katowice, ROSTEK (M458, L260?)
kit #172283 - Wałbrzych, DINTER (M458, L260?)
kit #124617 - Oleśnica, LASSOTA (M458, L260?)
kit #N33335 - Budziska, GRZESIK (M458, L260?)
kit #N18946 - Żywiec, TOMASZEK (M458, L260?)
kit #N13715 - Komprachcice, SAKRY (M458, L260+)
kit #363910 - Międzyrzecze, ROLKA (M458, L260+)
kit #E1842 - Stare Karmonki, FREYER (M458, L260+)
kit #N3865 - Laskowice, PACH (M458, L260+)
kit #114248 - Srebrna Góra, KRUSZKA (M458, L260+)
kit #E4579 - Czerwona Woda, NN (M458, L260+)
kit #173783 - Zielona Góra, VOGT (M458, L260+)

YP1337:

kit #288504 - Rostkowice, STRZODA (M458, L260>YP1337+)

YP254:

kit #N111740 - Kałki, SCHULZE (M458, L260, YP256>YP254?)
kit #53667 - Wilamowice, SCHNEIDER (M458, L260, YP254+)
kit #376660 - Brzęczkowice, CHECHELSKI (M458, L260, YP254>YP414+)
kit #154913 - Niemodlin, HANNAK (M458, L260, YP254>YP414>YP610+)

Y2905:

kit #439329 - Mikołów, SZKOWRON (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905+)
kit #338484 - Świniary, MIRKE (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905+)
kit #260299 - Głubczyce, BERNATEK (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905>YP1364+)
kit #329542 - Wrocław, WARKUS (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905>YP1364+)
kit #N77026 - Panki, KONARSKI (M458, L260, YP254>Y2905>YP1364>YP3927+)

Clade L1029:

kit #178329 - Chorzów, BENTKOWSKI (M458, CTS11962?, L1029?)
kit #102574 - Wałbrzych, SCHOBER (M458, CTS11962?, L1029?)
kit #373829 - Głubczyce, LEX (M458, CTS11962>L1029+)
kit #E11879 - Raszowa, GONDRO (M458, CTS11962>L1029+)
kit #271280 - Milicz, SCHWABE (M458, CTS11962>L1029+)
kit #199575 - Wrocław, Piotr WŁOSTOWIC (M458, CTS11962>L1029>YP593+)
kit #97621 - Wrocław, JUNG (M458, CTS11962>L1029>YP263>Y2921+)

Branch R1a-Z93:

kit #E7096 - Rościsławice, BAUM (Z93, Z94-)
kit #232033 - Krapkowice, SCHARON (Z93, Z2124>Z2123, Y934*)
kit #N103033 - Silesia, CHRISTMANN (Z93, Z2124>Z2122, CTS6+)

[Peterski]

German language can cross the Oder River, but German DNA cannot.

[War Chef]

Most of Germans in Poland are Germanized Slavs, as their autosomal results prove.

The so called "Ostsiedlung" was mostly expansion of language, not of people.

That's a lot of ambition. It's even crazier to think that roughly at this same time they were also going west (to the U.S.) in fact there is more German blood in the U.S. than in all of modern Germany.

http://i.imgur.com/6NObzho.jpg

[Not a Cop]

Most of Germans in Poland are Germanized Slavs, as their autosomal results prove.

The so called "Ostsiedlung" was mostly expansion of language, not of people.


That's actually interesting that my Grandad(who is 1\2 German) came out exactly 1\2 German, considering that most of his german ancestors were Baltic Germans, who are even futher removed from core Germans, though i guess it has to do with a fact that there were almost no German peasants in Baltic states, only Nobility, Merchants and Burghers.

[Peterski]

That's a lot of ambition. It's even crazier to think that roughly at this same time they were also going west (to the U.S.) in fact there is more German blood in the U.S. than in all of modern Germany.

http://i.imgur.com/6NObzho.jpg

Stop posting fucking Nazi Propaganda Maps. Here are correct linguistic maps:

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/poland-after-ww1-border-issues-problems-opportunities.536835/

https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/poland-after-ww1-border-issues-problems-opportunities.536835/page-2

http://s3.postimg.org/q7627ydir/The_Poles_Map.png

[Peterski]

That's actually interesting that my Grandad came out exactly 1\2 German, considering that most of his german ancestors were Baltic Germans, who are even futher removed from core Germans, though i guess it has to do with a fact that there were almost no German peasants in Baltic states, only Nobility, Merchants and Burghers.

Your grandad's ancestors maybe came to the Baltic region after 1700 AD.

Not all of Baltic Germans have their roots in Livonia back to the 1200s AD.

"Fresh Germans" (fresh immigrants from Germany) indeed have German DNA.

Which is why we say that "the only good German is a non-fresh German". I.e. one with Slavic DNA from centuries of mixing and assimilation (linguistic and cultural Germanization).

[Peterski]

Ethnic groups of East Prussia:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?213697-quot-Germans-quot-from-East-Prussia/page2

https://s29.postimg.org/eson19i79/Prussia_ethnic_1800_B.png

Languages of East Prussia:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?213697-quot-Germans-quot-from-East-Prussia/page2


Ethnic statistics per county for areas with a lot of Polish-speaking population:

Sprache / Muttersprache = language
Konfession = religious denomination

1) Kreis Angerburg (Węgorzewo):

http://s12.postimg.org/4lykvlptp/Angerburg.png

2) Kreis Goldap (Gołdap):

http://s29.postimg.org/iawes28rb/Goldap.png

3) Kreis Johannisburg (Pisz):

http://s4.postimg.org/hp3y8108t/Johannisburg.png

4) Kreis Lötzen (Łuczany / Giżycko):

http://s4.postimg.org/qyapvvyil/Loetzen.png

5) Kreis Lyck (Łek / Ełk):

http://s12.postimg.org/abetfwvzx/Gumbinnen.png

6) Kreis Mohrungen (Morąg):

http://s7.postimg.org/gq21hrncb/Mohrungen.png

7) Kreis Neidenburg (Nibork / Nidzica):

http://s16.postimg.org/9767ssobp/Neiderung.png

8) Kreis Oletzko (Olecko):

http://s10.postimg.org/6z6gg6bvd/Oletzko.png

9) Kreis Ortelsburg (Szczytno):

http://s29.postimg.org/jfqgxfv87/Ortelsburg.png

10) Kreis Osterode (Ostróda):

http://s28.postimg.org/ydgjcysn1/Osterode.png

11) Kreis Rastenburg (Rastembork / Kętrzyn):

http://s8.postimg.org/fmiz13net/Rastenburg.png

12) Kreis Rosenberg (Susz):

http://s2.postimg.org/4n5ncnamx/Rosenberg.png

13) Kreis Sensburg (Ządzbork / Mrągowo):

http://s4.postimg.org/xftmfe8vx/Sensburg.png

14) Summary for Pisz, Lötzen, Lyck, Neidenburg, Oletzko, Ortelsburg, Osterode & Sensburg:

http://s13.postimg.org/pg7psa8zb/Summary_8_Kreise.png



No, all of that area was still very Lithuanian at the beginning of the 1800s.

Lithuanians declined in numbers only later, due to Germanization policies.

Percent of Lithuanian-speakers among the population of East Prussia:

Year - % of Lithuanian-speakers in East Prussia:

1820 - 18,52% (estimate)
1825 - 12,13% (census)
1837 - 11,49% (census)
1848 - 10,26% (census)
1871 - 7,65% (census)
1878 - 6,91% (census)
1890 - 6,19% (census)

^^^ It continued to decline after 1890, but I don't have exact data.

If you think that those people were "German by blood" just because they stopped speaking Lithuanian and started speaking German (due to Germanization policies), you are fooling yourself.

[Not a Cop]

Your grandad's ancestors maybe came to the Baltic region after 1700 AD.

Not all of Baltic Germans have their roots in Livonia back to the 1200s AD.

"Fresh Germans" (fresh immigrants from Germany) indeed have German DNA.

Which is why we say that "the only good German is a non-fresh German". I.e. one with Slavic DNA from centuries of mixing and assimilation (linguistic and cultural Germanization).

I've traced most of lines up to XVIII century, a lot of them surnames from very old noble houses like Koskull f.e.

[Peterski]

I've traced most of lines up to XVIII century, a lot of them surnames from very old noble houses like Koskull f.e.

So maybe your line of Baltic Germans was unmixed.

But another 50% Baltic German got no German DNA:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8273-Southern-Polish-results-from-DNA-Land&p=187024&viewfull=1#post187024


Here are some Latvian MyOrigin/Geno 2.0 NG results:

interestingly a supposedly 50% Baltic German + 50% Latvian got:
89% Eastern European + 11% Finnish and Siberian (on DNA.LAND they got 100% North Slavic)
(I'm starting to think some Baltic German families actually ended up with lots of Latvian genes mixed in

[Peterski]

There is entire very funny thread on Anthrogenica dedicated to people ranting that their German-speaking ancestors were not genetically German (which is because of huge cultural Germanization in the past):

23andme's "German Problem":

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?5236-23andme-s-quot-German-Problem-quot

These butthurted Pan-Germanic nationalists and other idiots just don't understand this.

"My ancestor was Slavic and started speaking German - why didn't his DNA change?!"

[Peterski]

Before doing a DNA test, I foolishly believed that I would get 100% Slavic autosomal DNA and R1a. Meanwhile I'm getting only 50% - 75% Slavic and R1b-DF27 (of Celtic origin).

Where is it from? My surname is typically Slavic Polish with "-ski" ending.

Not everyone is what they think they are.

[Peterski]

Polish-Germans

According to Fichte's description below Lower Silesian "Germans" are totally Polish:

They just happen to speak German (but an incomprehensible dialect of German):

http://i.imgur.com/w7Cdf1M.png

[Peterski]

German blood

Already in the Middle Ages some Poles were seriously concerned about the spread of German language.

They also criticized the heavily corrupted Church, an institution implanted to the Pagan Slavic world largely from the German world.

Jan Ostroróg (1436-1501) in his "Monumentum pro Reipublicae Ordinatione Congestum" ("Treatise on Improving the Republic"), published in 1475, wrote:

http://s18.postimg.org/3opj1oqjt/About_Sermons.png

In English:

"XXII. About Sermons in the German Language:

Oh what an ungracious and hideous thing for the Poles, that in many places in our churches sermons are given in German language, and this takes place in a lofty and magnificent setting, where only one or two old women listen to them, while at the same time the crowds of Poles are squeezed somewhere in the corner with their preacher. And because nature itself implanted eternal discord and hatred between these two languages (as well as in some other aspects), I exhort you not to say the mass in that language. Let the one who wants to live in Poland learn to speak Polish! Unless we are such simpletons that we forget that the Germans treat our language in a similar fashion in their country. And if, after all, such sermons are needed for the foreign immigrants, let them take place somewhere in secluded spots, without damage to the dignity of the Poles."

http://s28.postimg.org/b1alhxtbh/About_Monks.png

In English:

"XX. About Enrolling Monks to the Monasteries.

Lords ruling the Republic! How feeble-minded are you, that until this day you have tolerated the fact, that from monasteries - dowered with land and income by our ancestors, built on Polish soil and with its crops fed by the Poles - they are excluding our kinsmen and not allowing them to join the convents; and this only because they are bound by an act of law, which tells them to enroll only Germans to the convent. This act of law is ridiculous and contrary to church laws. Because who dares to impose such a yoke upon the sovereign Kingdom of Poland - the King of which does not recognize the lordship of anyone above him - under the false guise of an act of law? You, brave men - if you want to be considered brave - must stop allowing the Germans - and especially these boorish and effeminate monks - to make fun of the Polish nation, and to deceive it with their bogus piety."

http://s29.postimg.org/fpsxvimbr/About_Priests.png

In English:

"XVIII. About the Pride of Priests:

Many of you, or maybe all of you, even if less fit to pastoral work, are applying for the priestly dignity, because idleness tends to be pleasant and attractive, while inaction tends to be nice and engaging. Perhaps, if I am not mistaken, the thing which encourages them to do this, is what Saint Paul said: Who desires a bishopric, desires something good. However, they don't know, that desiring itself is evil. One who steals gold, steals something good, but stealing itself is evil. And every priest, if we believe church laws, is a bishop, generally speaking. Sirs! Have you read what I wrote above, as well as what Hieronymus wrote, many of you would have chosen another way of life, and really valued the afterlife more than the earthly life. Myself being a Pole, and seeing what is happening in Poland now, I could not be silent about this."

All in all Ostrorog's concerns about the spread of German language among Poles were justified - considering that several centuries later guys like Otto von Bismarck or Adolf Hitler were convinced that all areas with German-speaking inhabitants should be annexed by Germany.

[Peterski]

there is more German blood in the U.S. than in all of modern Germany.

Most of German-Americans are only 1/4, 1/18 or 1/16 German. This kind of range.

They are mixed as fuck, and surprised when they get "no German on a DNA test".

===============

Just look how the number of self-identified Germans suddenly increased in the USA from 1980 to 1990 (obviously they did not acquire German DNA - they just started to identify as "Germans"):

In 1980 (the 1st census with ancestry question) more people reported English than German -
graph showing Euro ancestries with ~10 million or more declarations (ACS = American Community Survey - AFAIK, actual census data on ancestry has not yet been published for 2010 census):

In 2000 census the number of people who didn't report ancestry at all was 53,673,566 - they are just "Americans with no ancestry" (I couldn't find such data for 2010 census):

http://s14.postimg.org/lu7evx03l/Ancestries_1980_to_2010.png

Detailed numbers (note that in each census millions of people reported more than just one ancestry, due to which the total number of ancestry declarations was always higher than the number of people who reported their ancestry; also for example while the number of German ancestry declarations was always within the range of 43-58 million, the number of people who reported "German Alone" was +/- 17 million, and the number of people who reported German as "First Ancestry" was +/- 30 million, while the remaining ones reported it as "Second Ancestry" or as one of "Multiple" ancestries, depending on census and how reports containing more than two ancestries were counted in a particular census*):



People declaring ancestry:
1980 (census)
1990 (census)
2000 (census)
2010 (ACSurvey)


German =
49,224,146

57,947,374

42,839,711

47,901,779



Irish =
40,165,702

38,735,539

30,524,799

34,669,616



English =
49,598,035

32,651,788

24,509,692

25,926,451



American =
13,298,761

12,395,999

20,188,305

19,975,875



Italian =
12,183,692

14,664,550

15,635,567

17,235,941



Polish =

9,366,106
8,228,037

8,977,173

9,569,207



French =
13,672,246

12,488,062

10,167,636

10,849,466



People with no ancestry =
23,182,019

23,921,371

53,673,566





*Here is what they write on www.census.gov website about people who declare more than 2 ancestries:

"(...) The ancestry question was added to the census form in 1980, so the earliest information available from this question is from 1980. Currently [since when exactly, though?], when someone reports more than two groups for their ancestry in the American Community Survey, only the first two ancestries are tabulated. Some people identify their ancestry as American. This could be because their ancestors have been in United States for so long or they have such mixed backgrounds that they do not identify with any particular group. (...) There are many reasons people may report their ancestors as American, and the growth in this response has been substantial. (...)"

^^^ So people reporting German, British, French, Spanish, Polish, Russian and Irish are counted as just German-British - and all other ancestries get ignored. Even if they are only 1/16 German and 1/16 British (but for some reason they decide to list German and British as their first two ancestries).

[Peterski]

And a lot of "German-Americans" are in fact Jews from Germany, such as Albert Einstein.

Many people with Slavic ancestry also report themselves as "German-Americans".

[Dandelion]

Poles basically were like Anglo consumerists here? Too much glorifying the German language to their own detriment? I doubt that. Anglophilia here has made 0 Anglophones thus far. I personally would assume German colonisation also is part of it. It's not just a cultural spread, but also a genetic one. Why else would an elite try to switch language like that?
Up until the mid 20th century there also was an elite in the Dutch-speaking North of Belgium who preferred to speak French and even raise their children in French while being originally Dutch-speakers, but this was only due to centuries of foreign Habsburg rule and two generations of French rule and a Francophone bourgeoisie that ruled the early Belgian state making all education for parvenus Francophone. It did spread under impulse of a driving French-speaking elite though and was somewhat imposed by the upper echelons of society here.

[War Chef]

And a lot of "German-Americans" are in fact Jews from Germany, such as Albert Einstein.

Many people with Slavic ancestry also report themselves as "German-Americans".

Litvin the know-it-all is finally, unmistakably wrong.

I have seen dozens of American PCA plots and they almost all (with the exception of some bizzare minority cases) plot here:

http://i.imgur.com/U4GmEWB.jpg

^ Anglo+German combo would explain it well.

American = English + Central Euro hybrid. Period.

Also, maybe I was exaggerating about there being more Germans in U.S. than in Germany itself, but still there are a fuck ton of them:


46,047,113

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Americans

http://i.imgur.com/2ANGZ1c.png

[Peterski]

Why else would an elite try to switch language like that.

In Poland the elite were nobles - and nobles were never obsessed with German culture. Quite the opposite, Polish nobles were always rather Anti-German and culturally more Eastern than Western.

But the nobility did not care about commoners, who were adopting German language.

As for clergy - in some regions clergy was very Pro-German, in other regions Anti-German.

Where clergy was Pro-German (or even actually German), they were imposing sermons in German language. And where sermons were in German, peasants were becoming Germanized.

[Dandelion]

In Poland the elite were nobles - and nobles were never obsessed with German culture. Quite the opposite, Polish nobles were always quite Anti-German and culturally more Eastern than Western.

But the nobility did not care about commoners, who were adopting German language.

Rethelians on steroids. At least Rethel likes his Polish language, despite his Germanophilia. ;)

[War Chef]

Too much glorifying the German language to their own detriment?

Go ahead and say the obvious. THEY GOT CUCKED.

Lots of German surnames but minimal German DNA points to 1 thing. Massive cuck-fest with the local women.

[Peterski]

Same with rulers in various regions. Silesian Piasts for example started as a Polish dynasty, and ended up being German-speakers (you can see when that happened if you look at their given names - when they started identifying as Germans, they started using Germanic given names):

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?217489-Feudal-fragmentation-of-Poland-year-by-year&p=4560125&viewfull=1#post4560125

[Peterski]

German colonisation also is part of it. It's not just a cultural spread, but also a genetic one.

OK but for example Spanish language and culture spread to both Argentina and Bolivia. Both of these countries speak Spanish today. But Bolivia got much less of Spanish genes than Argentina.

So you can have a cultural and linguistic shift with various levels of genetic contribution.

It was also a genetic spread, but not on such a scale like replacement of natives in Argentina. Slavic inhabitants were mostly assimilated, not replaced. Like Andids in Bolivia.

But in areas like Silesia Germans came as peaceful settlers. So there is a big difference compared to how Spaniards came to Argentina and Bolivia (as invaders / conquistadors).

[Peterski]

There were different circumstances in each region. For example:

1) Mecklenburg - Germans come as crusaders, and exterminate a lot of local population.

2) Silesia - Germans come as peaceful immigrants, local Slavic population is untouched.

^^^
So no surprise, that Silesian Germans are much more Slavic than Mecklenburg Germans.

As for Baltic Germans:

3) Latvia - Germans invade, don't exterminate locals, but also don't assimilate them.

In Lower Silesia Slavs were culturally Germanized. In Latvia, Latvians were not Germanized. So Latvian genes did not "infiltrate" Baltic Germans as much as Slavic genes did in Silesia.

However, it seems that some Latvians were still absorbed into the German community.

[Dandelion]

It doesn't take a large population of foreigners for people to switch language. I'm quite happy it never spread too far for Belgium. Only Brussels was Frenchified and this also in part thanks to the success of French colonisation of much of Africa and immigration and the fact that Brussels used to be less relevant in the past. It developed and grew under French-speaking rule. Ghent was the second most Frenchified city, but only the elite and eventually they switched back to Dutch or migrated. It stayed Dutch-speaking.
Many French speakers in Brussels are autochtonous with Dutch surnames though. I used to have one replacement teacher for French due to the pregnancy leave of the other teacher. She was a Francophone from Brussels with a Dutch surname. She learned Dutch but spoke it with a heavy French accent.

You just need either the regime to be pushing for it or an elite speaking it and learning centres to speak that language. Or in the case of Poland have religious sermons in that language.

[Peterski]

Germanization of Lower Silesia was completed only during the 19th and early 20th century. There were still many Slavic-speakers there as of early 1800s. Linguistic map as of 1816-1831:

http://i.imgur.com/oonMdGF.png

[Dandelion]

There were different circumstances in each region. For example:

1) Mecklenburg - Germans come as crusaders, and exterminate a lot of local population.

2) Silesia - Germans come as peaceful immigrants, local Slavic population is untouched.

^^^
So no surprise, that Silesian Germans are much more Slavic than Mecklenburg Germans.

As for Baltic Germans:

3) Latvia - Germans invade, don't exterminate locals, but also don't assimilate them.

In Lower Silesia Slavs were culturally Germanized. In Latvia, Latvians were not Germanized. So Latvian genes did not "infiltrate" Baltic Germans as much as Slavic genes did in Silesia.

However, it seems that some Latvians were still absorbed into the German community.

When Latvia first became independent it had a fairly strong anti-German sentiment. Some Baltic Germans Balticised their names as a result. I would guess they have mixed with Latvians by now as the Baltic population emancipated and enjoyed social mobility.

[Peterski]

Ethnic structure of Western Pomerania, year 1300:

"Around 1300, Western Pomerania was inhabited by 240-300 thousand people, including ca. 60 thousand Germans. In cities, Germans were 50% of inhabitants and in villages they were 10-11%."

Source: http://parseta.org.pl/uploads/media/Przewodnik_Szlakiem_Rodow_Pomorskich_2008.pdf

I saw similar estimates for Silesia, but I can't find them now.

I have this, but this is only for knights / nobility (not for total population):

Ethnic structure of knights (nobles) in Silesia, year 1300:

Total knights mentioned in sources - 1192

Polish knights - 1084 (ca. 91%)
German knights - 99 (ca. 8%)
Czech knights - 9 (below 1%)

Source:

http://otworzksiazke.pl/images/ksiazki/rycerstwo_slaskie_do_konca_xiii_w_pochodzenie_gosp odarka_polityka/rycerstwo_slaskie_do_konca_xiii_w_pochodzenie_gosp odarka_polityka.pdf

http://otworzksiazke.pl/images/ksiazki/rycerstwo_slaskie_do_konca_xiii_w_biogramy_i_rodow ody/rycerstwo_slaskie_do_konca_xiii_w_biogramy_i_rodow ody.pdf

[Loki]

Good thread, interesting info!

I see it looks like Hungary and Poland are quite close genetically.

[Loki]

When Latvia first became independent it had a fairly strong anti-German sentiment.

Now they've traded it for a fairly strong anti-Russian sentiment. Never happy, they are... :rolleyes:

[Dick]

Go ahead and say the obvious. THEY GOT CUCKED.

Lots of German surnames but minimal German DNA points to 1 thing. Massive cuck-fest with the local women.

:lol00001:

[Dandelion]

Now they've traded it for a fairly strong anti-Russian sentiment. Never happy, they are... :rolleyes:

Well, it wasn't long ago that the USSR occupied them and attempts were made to 'integrate them better within the USSR' by importing hundreds of thousands of ethnic Russians to there. :p Such things tend to leave scars.
There does exist one ethnic Russian group in the Baltics that does live more in harmony with the local populace, though. The Russian Old Believers who fled persecution in the Russian Empire during the 17th century. They're different from the Soviet workers who came there with Stalin.

Latvians and Estonians can be very insecure about their ethnic Russians though. It's not rare for a Latvian or Estonian to be happy over the fact fewer people know Russian as a foreign language, which is childish to me. ;)

[Peterski]

OK, I found these estimates for Silesia:

In year 1350, Silesia had around 510,000 inhabitants (of them 150,000 in Upper Silesia and 360,000 in Lower Silesia). Of those 510,000 around 150,000 (according to estimates by Maleczynski) were Germans, most of whom inhabited cities and rural areas along the Sudeten mountains (Sudeten mountains separated Czechia from Silesia - German settlers colonized both sides of these mountains).

However, according to Tomasz Kamusella, Maleczynski overestimated the number of Germans.

Estimates for Early Medieval Silesia (at that time the population was fully Slavic) are here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Silesia#Early_Medieval_Slavic_tribes


c. AD 1000, the total population of Silesia is estimated as around 250,000 people.

So, the population of Silesia was:

In year 1000 AD - 250,000 (around 100% Slavic)

In year 1350 AD - 510,000 (at least 71% Slavic, up to 29% German)

So German genetic contribution is not bigger than 1/3.

The decline of Slavic-speakers after 1350 was cultural.

[Dick]

Never happy, they are... :rolleyes:

Yoda?

http://sharocity.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/OOYL-Yoda-Meme.jpg

[Peterski]

Now they've traded it for a fairly strong anti-Russian sentiment. Never happy, they are... :rolleyes:

In Poland it is more geographically divided. Eastern Poland is very anti-Russian.

Rethelistan is anti-Russian and philo-German, even though they hardly have anything in common with Germany. My area is not anti-Russian (traditionally it was even pro-Russian - we had a lot of supporters of Roman Dmowski in the early 20th century) and we used to be anti-German, but now we get along with Germans just fine.

Magnolia clearly doesn't understand that Western Poles actually like East Slavs.

[Peterski]

their Blitz decimated Poland

The disproportion of forces was too big in 1939. And don't forget that the USSR also invaded from the east.

But when on level playing field, we defeated the Germans in 1918-1919 (Posener Aufstand*). I'm talking about my region. In September 1939, Army Poznań (units from my region) was the best-performing Polish Army, which carried out the only major counterattack of the campaign (see the battle of Bzura**).

Unlike Mazovians we did not start ridiculous uprisings which had no chances to succeed (vide Warsaw 1944).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Poland_uprising_(1918–1919)

*


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ud0UpWU-SzA

**


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Zt_Q7J3zTY

[Peterski]

After winning the uprising against Germany, on 28 August of 1919 the Army of Greater Poland (under general Józef Dowbor-Muśnicki) was incorporated into the structures of the Polish Army. Soon later, our soldiers were sent to the Eastern Front where they played a very important role in repulsing the Bolshevik invasion (see battle of Warsaw 1920). So not only we liberated ourselves without any help from Warsaw government, but later we saved Warsaw's ass. If not for the help of over 70,000 of battle-hardened reinforcements from Provinz Posen, Warsaw could fall to the Russians in 1920.

[Karol Klačansky]

Before doing a DNA test, I foolishly believed that I would get 100% Slavic autosomal DNA and R1a. Meanwhile I'm getting only 50% - 75%


That is if the original slavs would come out fully eastern euro/Baltic on modern DNA tests. Even the samples we've seen from Poland recently aren't R1a so I'm a bit suspicious of these medevial samples which may be mixed with a non-slavic( Baltic) pre-population, and why they turn out so Baltic and eastern euro.

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

[Antimage]

Most of Germans in Poland are Germanized Slavs, as their autosomal results prove.

The so called "Ostsiedlung" was mostly expansion of language, not of people.


Maybe that is the case with Prussian germans, but what about Volga Germans, Transylvanian Saxons etc? http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SrZePx0URWU/T4b5HqtZU8I/AAAAAAAAI2c/0Rhg8KgUGh8/s1600/Deutsche_Ostsiedlung.jpg
Klaus Johannis(Romania's president) is a Transylvanian Saxon and he looks German imo (rather than Romanian)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Klausjohannis2005.jpg/200px-Klausjohannis2005.jpg

[Jana]

Many people in eastern part of Europe are ashamed of having some German ancestry, and that is wrong.

It is now very fashionable to spit on Germans and Germany, but actually it's rather pathetic.

[Antimage]

Many people in eastern part of Europe are ashamed of having some German ancestry, and that is wrong.

It is now very fashionable to spit on Germans and Germany, but actually it's rather pathetic.

Who? Where?Hungarians(those who have) are usually proud of having german ancestry, sometimes they even boast about it

[Jana]

Hungarians are usually proud of having german ancestry, sometimes they even boast about it
Maybe average Joes, but self-conscious nationalists are more like Litvin.

Germans who remained outside of Germany after ww2 had to be quiet, completely lost national feeling and were assimilated into societies of commie countries.
Commies helped that Germans develop huge guilt complex and try to lose their identity as fast as possile. Many of German-origin Croats I Knew are timid people with no pride in their heritage and leftist ideas... and they deny their German origins.

[Antimage]

and they deny their German origins.

Not the case in today Hungary. Germans are usually associated with positive qualities. Or at least it used to be like that until recently when the opinions started to be more mixed because of Germany's policies. I have heard german or part german people here say stuff like "I made it far beause I'm hard working and precise and I owe these attributes to my german ancestry&culture"

[Peterski]

Maybe that is the case with Prussian germans, but what about Volga Germans, Transylvanian Saxons etc? http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SrZePx0URWU/T4b5HqtZU8I/AAAAAAAAI2c/0Rhg8KgUGh8/s1600/Deutsche_Ostsiedlung.jpg

Volga Germans came from South-West Germany to Russia in the 1700s and the 1800s.

So they are relatively recent immigrants in Russia, so they have western genetic profiles.

But many of them mixed with Russians even during that short time.


Klaus Johannis(Romania's president) is a Transylvanian Saxon and he looks German imo (rather than Romanian)
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Klausjohannis2005.jpg/200px-Klausjohannis2005.jpg

In this photo he looks Polish.

[Karol Klačansky]

Many people in eastern part of Europe are ashamed of having some German ancestry, and that is wrong.

It is now very fashionable to spit on Germans and Germany, but actually it's rather pathetic.Well if Germans didn't behave like animals during WW2 and didn't have such an elitist attitude maybe people would be more proud

[Peterski]

Litvin the know-it-all is finally, unmistakably wrong.

I have seen dozens of American PCA plots and they almost all (with the exception of some bizzare minority cases) plot here:

http://i.imgur.com/U4GmEWB.jpg

^ Anglo+German combo would explain it well.

American = English + Central Euro hybrid. Period.

Polish-Americans definitely don't plot there.

I have over 50 Polish-American GEDmatch kits.

[Dick]

In this photo he looks Polish.

Nah, Johannis males are I-M253 or I1 on Ftdna.

[Peterski]

Nah, Johannis males are I-M253 or I1 on Ftdna.

Like around 15% of Polish males.

==========================

By the way:

I calculated average GEDmatch results of an average inhabitant of areas between modern western border of Poland and pre-war eastern border of Poland. I did this by creating a weighted average based on pre-war ethnic structure:

http://i.imgur.com/9pxF76N.png

Approximate ethnic structure of that area (present-day Poland and pre-war Poland) in 1930 was:

Poles (mix of regions*) -- 55%
Germans East ------------ 20%
Ukrainians West ---------- 9%
Rusyns Carpathian ------- 3.5%
Belarusians West -------- 2.5%
Belarusians Polesia ------ 2%
Ashkenazi Jews --------- 7.5%
Lithuanians -------------- 0.5%

*As you know, K36 Oracle has several regional Polish references. Instead of using one average for Poles, I used regional averages in proportions similar to population size of each region, to make my estimate more accurate.

[Dick]

Like around 15% of Polish males.
.

There is more I1 in the Balkans than in Poland.

[Rethel]

In Poland the elite were nobles - and nobles were never obsessed with German culture.

Oh, come on!
Your issues with Mahnölchen are now influenced polish history? :picard2:

It depends on time - in Middle Ages they were very pro-german.
Why do you think silesian principalities become germanized?
Becasue bauers influenced dukes and knights?

I want to make you aware, that majority of
noble terminology comes from German language.

Rycerz, herb, szlachta, lenno, łan, hołd, alodium, aso...

In later times were two schools: one was oriented on Orient
implementing everything from the east and following every fashion
from Bakczysaray and Konstantinopole, and second was orineted on
the West, mostly German and later french modesty.

[Polak]

My paternal ancestors are ethnic Germans, my surname is of German origin and they lived on present-day Belarus/Lithuania. My great grandfather looks more Bavarian than Belarusian, must be good German genes.
68225

[Rethel]

My paternal ancestors are ethnic Germans, my surname is of German origin and they lived on present-day Belarus/Lithuania. My great grandfather looks more Bavarian than Belarusian, must be good German genes.
68225

Welcome in polgerman club :)

[Ülev]

ask Lyssyi, your grandpa looks typical Xoxol rather than German

[Polak]

What is Xoxol? I don't believe he looks typical Belarusian/Ukrainian if that's what you mean, he's too dark skinned to look like either ha ha

[Rethel]

What is Xoxol?

Chochoł.

[Polak]

What's a Chochol?

[Ülev]

Ukrainian (in russian anti-ukrainian texts)

fixed

[Rethel]

What's a Chochol?

An Ukr. Tien Ukr. :laugh:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkvUb27xh5Y

[Rethel]

What's a Chochol?

http://pl.memgenerator.pl/mem-image/chochol-jest-zawiedziony-twoja-znajomoscia-lektur-pl-ffffff

[Polak]

What do you think Rethel? Does he look Slavo-Germanic?

[Rethel]

What do you think Rethel? Does he look Slavo-Germanic?

Idk. He looks like people x years ago...

Both and neither.

[ЛыSSый]

My paternal ancestors are ethnic Germans, my surname is of German origin and they lived on present-day Belarus/Lithuania. My great grandfather looks more Bavarian than Belarusian, must be good German genes.
68225

Your ancestor is looks hohol as fuck. Welcome in the club, little bro )))

[Rethel]

Your ancestor is looks hohol as fuck. Welcome in the club, little bro )))

You are not Polgerman, neither Rusgerman, so you cannot welcome him... :mad:

[ЛыSSый]

What is Xoxol? I don't believe he looks typical Belarusian/Ukrainian if that's what you mean, he's too dark skinned to look like either ha ha

http://www.proreklamu.com/news/news-advertising/images/stories/1239383573_xoxol_3.jpg

http://izbyshki.ru/uploads/posts/2016-04/1459935662_xoxol.jpg

[Polak]

Let's say I was wrong and he is ethnic Belarusian, does he look Belarusian or still Ukrainian?

[ЛыSSый]

You are not Polgerman, neither Rusgerman, so you cannot welcome him... :mad:

little bro, i've told not about your little sect, but about our great club.

[Peterski]

What's a Chochol?

Chocholi taniec (Xoxol dance):


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzUHR62Puu4

[ЛыSSый]

Let's say I was wrong and he is ethnic Belarusian, does he look Belarusian or still Ukrainian?

ay, out little bro rethel has superiority complex: he imagine himself of germanian ancestry.

[Peterski]

on the other side you have more mellow people

Who created perhaps the best cavalry formation in history:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?223003-Winged-Hussars-quot-Spartans-quot-of-cavalry&p=4682060&viewfull=1#post4682060

[Rethel]

ay, out little bro rethel has superiority complex: he imagine himself of germanian ancestry.

At least I have imagination - you don't.
Imagination is a symptom of inteligence - her lack: of lack of inteligence. :p

[ЛыSSый]

At least I have imagination - you don't.
Imagination is a symptom of inteligence - her lack: of lack of inteligence. :p

https://cs9.pikabu.ru/post_img/big/2017/10/01/10/1506877173148099272.jpg

[Token]

What is the percentage of Poles with German/Germanic ancestry?

[Rethel]

What is the percentage of Poles with German/Germanic ancestry?

Noone knows. I guess it is 10%.
But some partial regional comparitions show even more.

[Polak]

Anyhow, he was an ethnic German but I still identify as Slavic since most of my family is Polish and Czech. My Slavo-Germanic surname is "Bernatowicz", comes from German name "Bernhard."

[Rethel]

"Bernatowicz", comes from German name "Bernhard."

Eeee... Bernat could be anyone. Even a Pole. Just a name.

[Token]

Noone knows. I guess it is 10%.
But some partial regional comparitions show even more.

Is it significant or just distant and minor ancestry? Do they identify more with German/Germanic or Polish/Slavic culture?

[Rethel]

Is it significant or just distant and minor ancestry?

Normal ancestry, direct, what else could be?


Do they identify more with German/Germanic or Polish/Slavic culture?

Normal polish German is totaly assimilated.

[Polak]

Eeee... Bernat could be anyone. Even a Pole. Just a name.

Yes but they weren't Poles, so there is that. "Bernhard" name is Germanic anyhow, so irregardless whether they were Germanic, Slavic, both or neither; they had a Slavo-Germanic surname and their ancestor lived amongst Germanics.

[Token]

Normal ancestry, direct, what else could be?
So they are mostly German and just culturally Polish?

[Rethel]

Yes but they weren't Poles,

When and where they were?


so there is that. "Bernhard" name is Germanic anyhow, so irregardless whether they were Germanic, Slavic, both or neither; they had a Slavo-Germanic surname and their ancestor lived amongst Germanics.

It doesn't necessarly mean that guy was a German.
German names were very popular almost since ever.
The very son of Mieszko the first had german name.

[Rethel]

So they are mostly German and just culturally Polish?

100% Germans speaking and dancing in polish.

[Token]

100% Germans speaking and dancing in polish.

Sad.

[Polak]

They lived in the Russian Empire, then the 2nd Polish Republic and finally the USSR. They always said that they were originally German, they were Catholic but spoke Russian as mother-tongue (instead of Polish or German), they were also "mobbed" by local populations (whether they were Poles or Russians). You tell m what they were, they certainly weren't Poles.

[Rethel]

Sad.

Why?
Is it sad, that american English does not speak with received
pronounciantion neither parade with the portraits of the Queen?

[Rethel]

They lived in the Russian Empire, then the 2nd Polish Republic and finally the USSR. They always said that they were originally German, they were Catholic but spoke Russian as mother-tongue (instead of Polish or German), they were also "mobbed" by local populations (whether they were Poles or Russians). You tell m what they were, they certainly weren't Poles.

Some strange recent mishmash.
And I doubt if the surname originated just recently among rusgermans.

[Polak]

No. They're PolGermans. That's about it. Lol

[Token]

Why?
Is it sad, that american English does not speak with received
pronounciantion neither parade with the portraits of the Queen?

If the guy in this case is a fully English American, which is very rare today, then yes.

[Peterski]

What is the percentage of Poles with German/Germanic ancestry?

What do you mean by ancestry? Some admixture or Y-DNA?

Because Rethel of course means Y-DNA haplo / patrilineage.

[Token]

What do you mean by ancestry? Some admixture or Y-DNA?

Because Rethel of course means Y-DNA haplo / patrilineage.

Autossomal admixture.

[Rethel]

If the guy in this case is a fully English American, which is very rare today, then yes.

How very rare? :blink:

If they did founded the state, if they are at least 80 mln people, how it is rare? :picard1:

[Peterski]

Autossomal admixture.

Then probably 100% of Poles have some Germanic admixture.

As for patrilineage - for example my surname is Slavic, but I have a Non-Slavic Y-DNA (R1b-L617), which must be a leftover from Iron Age inhabitants. It has nothing to do with Germans (Deutsche).

R1b-L617 is not even common in Germany, but more to the west:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?199299-Map-of-R-L617

On the other hand, my mother's surname is of Germanic origin.

[Rethel]

What do you mean by ancestry? Some admixture or Y-DNA?

Because Rethel of course means Y-DNA haplo / patrilineage.

My patrilineage and surname for example are Slavic, but I have a Non-Slavic Y-DNA (R1b-L617), which must be a leftover from Iron Age inhabitants. It has nothing to do with Germans (Deutsche).

As your case clearly shows, not about haplo, but the second.
Haplo can be older than Germans, Poles, and unmemorable times.
In this duo (pol vs. ger) it would have only meaning if is not R1.

[Token]

How very rare? :blink:
If they did founded the state, if they are at least 80 mln people, how it is rare? :picard1:

North-Americans are mostly a mix of different European ethnicities, German being the most prominent followed by Irish and English.

[Peterski]

As your case clearly shows, not about haplo, but the second.
Haplo can be older than Germans, Poles, and unmemorable times.
In this paar (pol vs. ger)it would have only meaning if is not R1.

Yeah but what I mean by Non-Slavic is that it did not expand during Slavic Migrations, as you can clearly tell considering what is its age (much older) and distribution (no correlation with Slavic languages). But it also does not correlate with Germans. It was probably from Celts who settled in Poland.


North-Americans are mostly a mix of different European ethnicities, German being the most prominent followed by Irish and English.

In 1980 census, English was actually the most frequently reported ancestry in the USA:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?222651-U-S-1980-Census-Ancestry-data&p=4675264#post4675264

Genetic studies (Bryc 2015) also show that British ancestry is higher than German.

[Token]

Then probably 100% of Poles have some Germanic admixture.

As for patrilineage - for example my surname is Slavic, but I have a Non-Slavic Y-DNA (R1b-L617), which must be a leftover from Iron Age inhabitants. It has nothing to do with Germans (Deutsche).

R1b-L617 is not even common in Germany, but more to the west:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?199299-Map-of-R-L617

On the other hand, my mother's surname is of Germanic origin.

You are talking about specifically German ancestry or general Germanic? Germanic is a too broadly category and even the majority of Southern Europeans have some Germanic admixture.

[Rethel]

North-Americans are mostly a mix of different European ethnicities, German being the most prominent followed by Irish and English.

And what? People who came on Mayflower are suddenly Indians? Or maybe Germans? :picard2:

[Rethel]

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?199299-Map-of-R-L617

The link doesn;t work.

[Peterski]

You are talking about specifically German ancestry or general Germanic?

General Germanic.

[Peterski]

The link doesn;t work.

The distribution of people with R1b-L617 (as of December 2016):

http://i.imgur.com/87kvu5Y.png

Could be from the Lugii (Lugians), which is a Celtic ethnonym:

http://i.imgur.com/91eYtUe.png

[Token]

And what? People who came on Mayflower are suddenly Indians? Or maybe Germans? :picard2:

I don't know what you are talking about, why you don't try to be more direct and objective? I just believe that ancestry and culture needs to walk side by side.

[Token]

General Germanic.

What about specific German ancestry?

[Rethel]

Yeah but what I mean by Non-Slavic is that it did not expand during Slavic Migrations, as you can clearly tell considering what is its age (much older) and distribution (no correlation with Slavic languages).

Yes, but the farest as you can go is polishness.

Slavness?
You could argue, but always will be buts...

Similar case is the king of Holland. Is he German (as oldest memory says) or Slav (as hg points)?
I would not be able to say clearly, becasue it could be that some "slavic clades" were earlier as
we think they were. Maybe with time and more kopalnych samples it could be determined easier,
but in such cases the farest as I would go it is familiy's matter to decide with which identify more.


But it also does not correlate with Germans. It was probably from Celts who settled in Poland.

Probably. But I would not totaly exclude Szottish element.


In 1980 census, English was the most frequently reported ancestry in the USA:

As they started to going stupid at that time, I trust more polish wiki
which says 80mln, and what was not so far ago on english wiki too.

[Rethel]

The distribution of people with R1b-L617 (as of December 2016):

The points in Lithuania could suggest Szots.

[Peterski]

What about specific German ancestry?

No idea. But you have to know that Germans from areas to the east of the Oder themselves are largely Slavic in terms of genetics. For example this woman has all 16 German great-grandparents, but is autosomally very Slavic-shifted: https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?204874-Prussian-German-GEDmatch-results&p=4280100&viewfull=1#post4280100

Surnames of her great-grandparents: Steinbach, Liebenau, Gnoss, Scheffler, Hass, Hasse, Voss, Zimmermann, Kopiske, Eichstädt, Feustel, Schmeisser, Hedke, Lück, Neumann, Schulz

Birthplaces of her ancestors (mostly in former West Prussia):

http://i.imgur.com/n2ExaaO.png

And her DNA results give her "Polish" in Single Population Sharing:

Eurogenes K13 results:

Kit A682720

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 40.43
2 North_Atlantic 37.01
3 West_Med 12.1
4 West_Asian 4.1
5 East_Med 3.24
6 Red_Sea 1.43
7 Northeast_African 0.63
8 Oceanian 0.6
9 South_Asian 0.43
10 Amerindian 0.03

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 South_Polish 6.86
2 Polish 7.61
3 Southwest_Finnish 8.08
4 East_German 8.42
5 Ukrainian 9.22
6 Ukrainian_Lviv 9.24
7 North_Swedish 9.5
8 Austrian 10.9
9 Hungarian 11.08
10 Russian_Smolensk 11.11
11 Belorussian 11.32
12 Croatian 11.49
13 Estonian_Polish 11.6
14 Estonian 11.88
15 Finnish 12.26
16 Southwest_Russian 12.63
17 Ukrainian_Belgorod 13.04
18 Swedish 13.46
19 Lithuanian 14.72
20 North_German 14.93

^^^
So if some Polish person has a German ancestor with similar genetics, then this Polish person is still not different than an average Pole. Because that German ancestor was very Eastern.

[Rethel]

I don't know what you are talking about, why you don't try to be more direct and objective?

You say, that it is not true, that 80 mln people comes from england, becasue Americans are mixed (as it would be not known). So I asked you - what about people, who came to America on Mayflower. They were from England so logically were Englishmen, so now, since they landed, are american English... or - as you supposed - they in some way became Indians (becasue they live on their land), Germans (becasue as you said, Americans are overwhelmingly of such provenance) or maybe someone else? If so, then how and when they totaly change themsleves and lost their roots replacing them by others? How?


I just believe that ancestry and culture needs to walk side by side.

If you not follow the culture, you still have ancestry.
You can began to foolow chinese culture, but it will
not make you chinese ancestry - or maybe will?

[Rethel]

Surnames of her great-grandparents: Steinbach, Liebenau, Gnoss, Scheffler, Hass, Hasse, Voss, Zimmermann, Kopiske, Eichstädt, Feustel, Schmeisser, Hedke, Lück, Neumann, Schulz

And her DNA results give her "Polish" in Single Population Sharing:

^^^
So if some Polish person has a German ancestor with similar genetics, then this Polish person is still not different than an average Pole. Because that German ancestor was very Eastern.

Another reason why it is sensless.

[Peterski]

Another reason why it is sensless.

It is not. You should finally test your autosomal DNA.

[Rethel]

It is not. You should finally test your autosomal DNA.

No, I do no need it.
Btw, digging so much in that, you should be able to calculate it.

1/4 from Deafgermania, 1/2 from close translivian Podlachia,
1/16 from prussian Silesia, and 3/16 from western Mazowia.
Now, give me my percentages :p

[Token]

You say, that it is not true, that 80 mln people comes from england, becasue Americans are mixed (as it would be not known). So I asked you - what about people, who came to America on Mayflower. They were from England so logically were Englishmen, so now, since they landed, are american English... or - as you supposed - they in some way became Indians (becasue they live on their land), Germans (becasue as you said, Americans are overwhelmingly of such provenance) or maybe someone else? If so, then how and when they totaly change themsleves and lost their roots replacing them by others? How?

Mixing with later European migrants. The North-American culture is a fusion of several Northwest-European and even Southern European cultures (with the English/Anglo-Saxon still being the main component) that, thanks to the several years spent in a totally different continent, developed his own particularities.


If you not follow the culture, you still have ancestry. You can began to foolow chinese culture, but it will, not make you chinese ancestry - or maybe will?
No and this is exactly why i say that ancestry and culture needs to walk side by side. You can follow the chinese culture but if you are not a chinese by blood you are just a intruder.

[Rethel]

Mixing with later European migrants. The North-American culture is a fusion of several Northwest-European and even Southern European cultures (with the English/Anglo-Saxon still being the main component) that, thanks to the several years spent in a totally different continent, developed his own particularities.

Yes of course - does it change the fact, that american English is not american English?
did he suddenly lost his provenance, ancestors, history and everything becasue he participates in new enviroment??? :confused:


No and this is exactly why i say that ancestry and culture needs to walk side by side. You can follow the chinese culture but if you are not a chinese by blood you are just a intruder.

So what is your problem with English or Germans in this case?
Not following the culture doesn;t cancel the blood. One can always
start to cultivate some meaningless customs, if it hurts you so much...
It doesn;t work opposite way...

[Token]

Yes of course - does it change the fact, that american English is not american English?
did he suddenly lost his provenance, ancestors, history and everything becasue he participates in new enviroment??? :confused:

So what is your problem with English or Germans in this case?
Not following the culture doesn;t cancel the blood. One can always
start to cultivate some meaningless customs, if it hurts you so much...
It doesn;t work opposite way...

I never said that it 'cancels' the blood or that you are not American English if you don't follow the Anglo culture. I just find sad that people leave the culture of his ancestors behind to adopt another completely different way of life. Fortunately, here in Brazil, mostly descendants of recent German or other European migrants managed to preserve their original culture while still being part of the general Brazilian society.

[Sacrificed Ram]

Everybody knows nothern slavs were germanized during Wend Cruzades. Many poles can trace their ancestry to lands in current Ukraine, poles inhabited lands more southern than today.

[Rethel]

I never said that it 'cancels' the blood or that you are not American English if you don't follow the Anglo culture. I just find sad that people leave the culture of his ancestors behind to adopt another completely different way of life. Fortunately, here in Brazil, mostly descendants of recent German or other European migrants managed to preserve their original culture while still being part of the general Brazilian society.

So, what's your problem then?

[Token]

So, what's your problem then?
I don't have a problem. :confused:

[Peterski]

Everybody knows nothern slavs were germanized during Wend Cruzades. Many poles can trace their ancestry to lands in current Ukraine, poles inhabited lands more southern than today.

Not really.

First of all, they are just about 15% of modern Poland's inhabitants, and secondly they are not only from Ukraine, but Belarus, Lithuania and Latvia as well - so also from more northern lands:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?221469-Classify-Adam-Zamoyski&p=4650548&viewfull=1#post4650548

Here is an ethnic Pole with ancestry from North-East Kresy (now he lives in Poland):

GEDmatch kit number: M084406

His results in Eurogenes K36 are the following:

Central_Euro 6.22
East_Balkan 7.65
East_Central_Euro 30.42
Eastern_Euro 18.13
Fennoscandian 16.44
French 1.88
Iberian 6.89
Italian 2.46
North_Atlantic 2.25
North_Sea 7.61

And his K36 similarity rates to modern populations:

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

As you can see, he is not very similar to Ukrainians:

https://i.imgur.com/wY6gSe5.png

^^^
He is one of Poles resettled after WW2 from these areas:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?221469-Classify-Adam-Zamoyski&p=4655955&viewfull=1#post4655955

[EasternEurope]

68237

I disagree, this is the interesting border.

[Token]

68237

I disagree, this is the interesting border.

Where's this?

[Peterski]

No, I do no need it.
Btw, digging so much in that, you should be able to calculate it.

1/4 from Deafgermania, 1/2 from close translivian Podlachia,
1/16 from prussian Silesia, and 3/16 from western Mazowia.
Now, give me my percentages :p

I'm calculating a weighted average for you.

But what do you mean by Deafgermania?

[EasternEurope]

Where's this?

It's the border between Belgium and the Netherlands at a cafe. Pretty cool if you ask me. :)

[ЛыSSый]

68237

I disagree, this is the interesting border.

this (http://fishki.net/49580-granica-mezhdu-severnoj-i-juzhnoj-koreej-22-foto.html) border is better

[Sacrificed Ram]

Not really.

First of all, they are just about 15% of modern Poland's inhabitants, and secondly they are not only from Ukraine, but Belarus, Lithuania and Latvia as well - so also from more northern lands:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?221469-Classify-Adam-Zamoyski&p=4650548&viewfull=1#post4650548

Here is an ethnic Pole with ancestry from North-East Kresy (now he lives in Poland):

GEDmatch kit number: M084406

His results in Eurogenes K36 are the following:

Central_Euro 6.22
East_Balkan 7.65
East_Central_Euro 30.42
Eastern_Euro 18.13
Fennoscandian 16.44
French 1.88
Iberian 6.89
Italian 2.46
North_Atlantic 2.25
North_Sea 7.61

And his K36 similarity rates to modern populations:

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

As you can see, he is not very similar to Ukrainians:

https://i.imgur.com/wY6gSe5.png

^^^
He is one of Poles resettled after WW2 from these areas:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?221469-Classify-Adam-Zamoyski&p=4655955&viewfull=1#post4655955

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/5e/53/de/5e53de3bd90ffd69f0ca22ba84f9ee26--european-history-prussia.jpg

Peterman, I didn't say poles are ukrainians, but that their ethnogenesis was in now current ukrainian territory.

[Peterski]

^^^
Political borders are not the same as ethnic borders. Some of my ancestors in 1377-1434 lived in the area controlled by the Teutonic Order (Pomerelia), but they were ethnically Polish.

[Bobby Martnen]

The loss of the Eastern German and Polish lands by their respective nations in the aftermath of WWII was a huge tragedy.

[Ülev]

Eeee... Bernat could be anyone. Even a Pole. Just a name.

can be also of more noble origin: http://www.jhi.pl/blog/2012-11-01-historia-nazwisk http://www.fronda.pl/a/nazwiska-zydowskie-w-polsce,54044.html

Poland had more Jewish people than Germanic one

[Sacrificed Ram]

^^^
Political borders are not the same as ethnic borders. Some of my ancestors in 1377-1434 lived in the area controlled by the Teutonic Order (Pomerelia), but they were ethnically Polish.

Some pomersh retained slavs and was absorbed into poles. The problem is when protestant reform, the protestant slavs will align with germans, while catholics with poles.

How do you think baltics became protestants and poles not?

[Peterski]

Some pomersh retained slavs and was absorbed into poles. The problem is when protestant reform, the protestant slavs will align with germans, while catholics with poles. How do you think baltics became protestants and poles not?

Yeah that's true, but Slavs who remained under Polish rule did not convert to Protestantism. Remember that Poland defeated the Teutonic Order and regained Pomerelia in 1466, which is why this region never became dominated by Protestants:

http://files.foreignaffairs.com/legacy/images/10403-1.jpg

http://files.foreignaffairs.com/legacy/images/10403-1.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/1Oj4u3x.png

https://s10.postimg.org/3n5o64ubt/Cat_Prot1.png

http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/images/Geographische%20Verteilung.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-8LkZNUQHSD4/T4WJSJMvMAI/AAAAAAAAALE/MAqr0gsOAAQ/s1600/Religion.jpg

https://s32.postimg.org/mozorbyud/PL_GER_west_border.png

[Peterski]

By the way, this (Trzemeszno Lubuskie) was the westernmost town of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth:

http://i.imgur.com/WjCxmUV.png

http://i.imgur.com/WjCxmUV.png

http://i.imgur.com/3UE5KZk.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/3UE5KZk.jpg

[Peterski]

The origin of Polish-German genetic differences is not anything recent, certainly not population movements after WW2.

It is much deeper, because Lusatian Sorbs - a Slavic minority in Germany - are genetically like Poles, not like Germans.

Here is a map showing genetic similarities of Sorbs to other populations:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?213172-K36-Lusatian-Sorbs-most-similar-to-Wielkopolska-Poles

They have 94% similarity to Wielkopolska Poles versus only 90% to East Germans, and much less to other Germans:

http://i.imgur.com/YLRzalt.png

[Peterski]

I suppose that these people are genetically like Sorbs and Poles, despite speaking German today:

1) https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?213083-Westernmost-Slavs-(Hanoverian-Wends)&p=4465615&viewfull=1#post4465615

2) https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?212748-Germans-from-R%FCgen-are-genetically-Slavic&p=4459218&viewfull=1#post4459218

As far as I know, there are no genetic studies about them. Unlike in case of Sorbs and Kashubians.

And I did not manage to find anyone with 100% of ancestry from those groups, only 37.5%:


On GEDmatch I could not find anyone with 100% of ancestry from Rügen.

However, I found Dankwardt, with 37.5% of ancestry from Rügen:

GEDmatch kit: A687851
GEDCOM ID#: 7014712

http://i.imgur.com/xuIzbqk.png

http://i.imgur.com/xuIzbqk.png

K36 nMonte (with 322 reference populations):

Dankwardt

Dutch_Frisian 33.1
Belgium 23.6
Ukrainian_East 17.5
Austria_Tyrol 12.7
PL_Podlasie_East_Mazovia 8.7
Lithuanian 3.3
Russian_Bryansk 0.7
IT_Veneto 0.4

17.5 + 8.7 + 3.3 + 0.7 = 30.2%

This is almost as much as percent of Rügen ancestry.

[Sacrificed Ram]

Ok, ok.

But acheology doesn't lie. Northern Poland was Goth (extinct east germanic people) territory, after they abondoned those lands, then was occupied by slavs.

http://www.learn.columbia.edu/courses/medmil/images/non_met_images/maps/WestermannsMaps/1750/WestermannsIIpg48.jpg

[Peterski]

Ok, ok. But acheology doesn't lie. Northern Poland was Goth (extinct east germanic people) territory, after they abondoned those lands, then was occupied by Slavs.

Goths originated probably in Pomerania but later occupied most of Eastern Poland, both North-Eastern and South-Eastern. Until the 1st century BC or the 1st century CE, parts of Western and South-Western Poland were occupied by the Lugians (probably Celtic-speaking people), later by the Vandals.

I don't think that all of them abandoned those lands. Evidence (both archaeological and genetic, as well as written sources) suggests that Slavs came and mixed with those previous inhabitants.


then was occupied by Slavs.

But there is no consensus as to where was the Urheimat of the Proto-Slavs located.

====================

Currently there are several research projects on the Migration Period in Poland:

https://www.ncn.gov.pl/finansowanie-nauki/przyklady-projektow/figlerowicz?language=en

http://www.mpov.uw.edu.pl/en/

[Token]

Goths originated probably in Pomerania but later occupied most of Eastern Poland, both North-Eastern and South-Eastern. Until the 1st century BC or the 1st century CE, parts of Western and South-Western Poland were occupied by the Lugians (probably Celtic-speaking people), later by the Vandals.
I don't think that all of them abandoned those lands. Evidence (both archaeological and genetic, as well as written sources) suggests that Slavs came and mixed with those previous inhabitants.

Linguistical and Anthropological evidences suggests that West Slavic speakers heavily outnumbered any Gothic or generic East Germanic tribe that lived in the region after the mass migrations. I can't talk about archeology or genetic because i'm not very informed about archeological studies done in Poland, can you show me these evidences?

[Dragoon]

https://s26.postimg.org/lpl9p6zqh/Figure-3-_The-_Dmowski_s-_Line-1918-_Poland-in-1921-.png (https://postimages.org/)

This was an older idea before WW2.
Poland would be larger (include parts of Ukraine, Lithuania, Belaras who back then had Polish groups living there).
Germany would be larger. (include parts of Western Poland today)
Russia would be larger (include parts of Ukraine, might be wrong)

Mixed feelings on the idea, but maybe things would be different or improved.

[Dragoon]

https://s26.postimg.org/dmn3dvf55/Slavic_tribes_in_the_7th_to_9th_century.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/mhnxoe3xh/)

Obviously tribes shifted or absorbed.

https://s26.postimg.org/s7468pa3t/2_Za9_Lr4.jpg (https://postimg.org/image/5v6dfbazp/)

Nations 1000 ad

[Rethel]

But what do you mean by Deafgermania?

+/- this.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Pog%C3%B3rze_%C5%9Arodkowobeskidzkie.png

[Profileid]

Why do they want to be german so bad?

[Peterski]

Linguistical and Anthropological evidences suggests that West Slavic speakers heavily outnumbered any Gothic or generic East Germanic tribe that lived in the region after the mass migrations. I can't talk about archeology or genetic because i'm not very informed about archeological studies done in Poland, can you show me these evidences?

Here are a few models for my own genetic ancestry, with use of ancient samples from different periods. The last period includes Early Medieval Slavic samples (green color). This graph also indicates, that Slavic people originated from a mix of BR2/IR1-like and RISE598-like populations (these are - respectively - samples from Late Bronze Age / Iron Age Hungary and Sudovia; RISE598 is from Sudovia):

https://i.imgur.com/iR6BhTN.png

https://i.imgur.com/iR6BhTN.png

RISE431 and I0115 are Unetice samples. Zve28 is Corded Ware, RISE567 is Bell Beaker.

BR2 and RISE371 are Late Bronze Age Hungary. IR1 is Iron Age Hungary.

RISE598 (from Sudovia) and BR2 (from Hungary) are both about 3000 years old.

Red samples are Sintashta (RISE395), Mezhovskaya (RISE523) and Sarmatian (I0574).

================================

But MA7, NE34 and Wielbark are low quality samples because these are just screening results:

https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJNA354503

The same samples will be published later (probably in 2018) in high coverage (high quality).

Samples from the following archaeological sites will be published:

Niemcza (NE) = 900-1000 AD,
Markowice (MA) = 1000-1200 AD,

Sowinki = 1000-1100 AD,
Łęgowo = 1000-1200 AD,
Gniezno = 1000-1200 AD,

Kowalewko (Wielbark) = 100-300 AD,
Masłomęcz (Wielbark) = 200-400 AD.

[Sacrificed Ram]

Goths originated probably in Pomerania but later occupied most of Eastern Poland, both North-Eastern and South-Eastern. Until the 1st century BC or the 1st century CE, parts of Western and South-Western Poland were occupied by the Lugians (probably Celtic-speaking people), later by the Vandals.

I don't think that all of them abandoned those lands. Evidence (both archaeological and genetic, as well as written sources) suggests that Slavs came and mixed with those previous inhabitants.



But there is no consensus as to where was the Urheimat of the Proto-Slavs located.

====================

Currently there are several research projects on the Migration Period in Poland:

https://www.ncn.gov.pl/finansowanie-nauki/przyklady-projektow/figlerowicz?language=en

http://www.mpov.uw.edu.pl/en/

Wends (Pomeranians) probable were also mixed with vikings. The viking-slav mixes gave origin for ruthenians more for south.

[Peterski]

(...)

As for archaeology:

Summary of new research on the Migration Period in East Germany and westernmost Poland (Armin Volkmann "Siedlung – Klima – Migrationen: Geoarchäologische Forschungen zur Oderregion zwischen 700 vor und 1000 nach Chr. mit Fokus auf der Völkerwanderungszeit"):

https://www.academia.edu/1495365/Siedlung_Klima_Migrationen_Geoarch%C3%A4ologische_ Forschungen_zur_Oderregion_zwischen_700_vor_und_10 00_nach_Chr._mit_Fokus_auf_der_V%C3%B6lkerwanderun gszeit

"In the context of the study, an analysis in a GIS of sites from the Iron Age to the Early Middle Ages was applied to the River Oder Region. A site catchment analysis of the topographical setting, the soil and broader parameters was conducted as a GIS examination. In this the spatial data information in a probable operating radius around the respective settlements of the individual periods was collected and evaluated statistically. In this way, statistically significant climate proxies on the relative humidity index and temperature pattern of the paleoclimate could be demonstrated. Through the use of weighted average means it was possible to describe climate signals of the compared periods. The quantitative analysis of the data of more than 500 finding sites allows identifying significant signals. As a result I found out that at the end of the Iron Age and at the beginning of the migration period, dramatic climate fluctuations are recognized. The climate fluctuations are the main reason for emigration out of this region. In the migration period, and again at the end of the Iron Age, the region was virtually uninhabited for 250 years. The data from the site catchment analysis is in a next step the base for a predictive modeling with has clearly defined areas of high and low probabilities of finding sites.

A site catchment analysis of the topographical setting, the soil and broader parameters was conducted as a GIS examination, in which the spatial data information in a probable operating radius around the respective settlements of the individual periods was collected and evaluated statistically. In this way, statistically significant climate proxies on the relative humidity index and temperature pattern of the paleoclimate could be demonstrated. In addition, the deciding location factors of the soil and the geoecological environment of the settlement as well as distortionary anthropogenic and natural superimpositions were discussed. The ecological indicator values were rearranged into concise categories in a transformation process in consideration of their usability and informative value for matters concerning prehistoric, agronomically orientated cultures and checked for climate signals. The identified climate signals do not represent absolute data, but rather indirect, relative data, which permit comparative statements concerning the previous and subsequent level.
With the use of comparative climate research, palynology, dendrochronology, the status of glaciers, river levels and models of paleotemperature, the climate signals that were produced in the context of the GIS environmental analysis could be verified. In this way, the probability and concision of the environmental analysis developed here and its particularly detailed chronological value were substantiated.

The final step of the GIS analysis is based on Voronoi diagrams of the sites mapped as prehistoric space models. They show concepts of space in time. In a cartographic reconstruction of settlement clusters, the relationship between the anthropogenically influenced agricultural area and extensive natural forest areas was visualised. These methods are a part for the predictive modeling to clarify for example the most interesting regions of the settlements in the migration period.

In the early Migration Period (D), the climate worsened dramatically and weather became very cool and dry in the course of only a few decades. Very poor conditions for land cultivation and animal husbandry resulted from this, which withdrew their livelihood in many places from the Germanic groups engaged in subsistence agriculture. On this limited scale, this could be buffered by more intensive trade, like the piled material found on the site and documented by geomorphology on the aforementioned trade and transit routes Settlements in micro regional favoured areas with a guaranteed supply of water such as kettle lakes, for example, could continue to exist. Spatial analysis of settlements shows a strong shrinking of the settlement clusters to remaining areas in which agricultural activity was still possible. Thus, there is a great disparity of a juxtaposition of extremely unequal small scale economic potential, which led to the widespread disintegration of settlement clusters and the accompanying dismantling of settlements in the subsequent late Migration Period (E). Simultaneously, the areas of the extensive natural, potential forest communities that are not influenced by humans increased greatly, whereas in Period E only “islands of remnant settlements” still existed in the surrounding woodlands. These types of settlements are the same as those identified in the late Roman Iron Age, but they have degenerated to a very large extent. Likewise, the parallels in construction are striking, where long houses that were used by a larger settlement community, are very rare. In contrast, smaller residential buildings or barns and storage sheds are frequently in post construction as well as upright and probably log construction, which were used by smaller family alliances, often as individual hamlets.

In this way, the Germanic migration from the Oder region is to be viewed as being organised into at least three main phases:

1. Already in the late Roman Iron Age there was a substantial migration in spite of the moist, warm climate of the favourable phase, which was triggered by the political weakness of the Roman Empire (the so-called imperial crisis of the soldier emperor with the fall of the Upper Germanic and Rhaetian Limes in 254 AD and the subsequent withdrawal of the border in the Rhine and Danube area) in the 3rd century AD and the related opportunities for plundering. This pulling effect of the Roman Empire which was rocked by crisis continued as a domino effect into the eastern Barbaricum in the Oder area. The Germanic migration is not just to be viewed as pointing to the southwest, however, as some Germanic people turned back again in a single cycle, as individual groups with particularly valuable pieces of furniture in late Germanic burial grounds clarify (the so-called “princely grave group of the Haßleben-Leuna- Häven type”).

2. In the early Migration Period, there is a dramatic worsening of the climate, which withdrew the foundation of the subsistence economy from large sections of the population which were characterized by agriculture. However, the political circumstances of the declining Roman Empire with the possibilities of seizing land and the existence of continuing opportunities to plunder increased the very intense migration of the late Germanic population from the Oder, mainly from Period D2, as numerous find sites from Period D1 are known. The high density of settlements in the moist Spree-Havel region, which was used as an intermediate stage in the south-westerly direction of the wave of migration is noticeable. The magnetic effect of the Roman Empire with its impressive, high-quality cultural assets in combination with the worsening climate in Barbaricum triggered an economically orientated wave of migration, which reached its peak in the 5th century AD (due to the simultaneous, political and military weakness of the-Roman Empire). Thus, undoubtedly, there was a heightened potential for conflict at the peak of the drought period, as is revealed by the incursions of Germanic peoples into the Roman Empire.

3. Despite the sharp rise in rainfall numbers in the late Migration Period (Period E), there was no certainty that grain could be harvested in the Oder region, as, on the one hand, the further reaching climate instability did not facilitate this due to torrential rain followed by temporary periods of drought and as, on the other hand, it must be assumed that there was an immense loss of expertise due to the preceding migration, particularly of the elite, younger and flexible sectors of the population. These problems were intensified even more by the heavy encroachment of scrub and the reforestation or partial desertification of the agricultural areas that were previously forsaken during Period D, as there was no potential labour force available for the agronomic re-cultivation of these fallow lands for labour intensive forest clearance measures (e.g. due to a positive population balance or birth surplus). Now, due to the relative increase in humidity as well, the Spree-Havel area, which had proven to be a favoured settlement area during the dry phase of Period D2, was of no agronomic interest. Up until Period E2 there was an almost complete dismantling of settlements in that area. Only in the northern part of the area being studied, an isolated remnant of the Germanic population whose economic basis is to be viewed as being linked to trade with Scandinavia to compensate for its non-productive agriculture is still also sporadically tangible in the 7th century AD (Period E3). In addition to that, however, all “remnants of Germanic traces” are located in only one diagonal strip of the very fertile marly soil which runs from north to south and is composed of a greatly varied biogeographical potential, which enabled flexible agriculture to be the primary source of income. The site where heaped material was found on both sides of the Oder in regions where there is black earth, with the most fertile soils and above all, an optimal groundwater level is of note. In addition, outside of the area under examination, as in the Magdeburger Börde, in the Thuringian Basin (Thüringer Becken) or in the Wetterau, an elevated incidence of finds from Period E is to be noted in these basin landscapes that are moulded by a relatively dry continental climate. There is a clear connection between the spatial distribution of the black earth and the late Migration Period sites.
The time of the earliest Slavic immigration is to be dated in river Oder region not before 700 AD."

======================

On the other hand, here quite different conclusions (but it about other areas, northern and Central Poland):

http://www.eaa2017maastricht.nl/download2456

"MIGRATION PERIOD BETWEEN ODRA AND VISTULA: NEW SOURCES, NEW IDEAS
Author: Prof Bursche, Aleksander - University of Warsaw
Co-Author: Dr Zapolska, Anna - University of Warsaw (Presenting author)
Keywords: coins, Barbarians, imitations
Presentation

Brief results of 5-year Project „Migration Period between Odra and Vistula” realised by the international team will be presented in the context of new archeological and natural sciences data including pollen, radiocarbon, DNA or isotopic analysis. Transfer of technology from late Roman Empire to Barbaricum and political conflicts were the main reasons and mechanisms of the migration both to the South - Western Roman Empire and backwards to the North - Scandinavia. New sources from central and northern Poland testify continuation of settlement activity of elite character in so-called central places, emporia, logistic and power centers, having evident traces of Germanic character, until 7th c. AD. Undoubtedly we have to deal with German-Slavonic coexistence, what explains, between other, continuation of hydronims (water names), cf. Vistula. In the light of the most recent results we have to deal with relatively short hiatus from mid 7th until end of 8th century AD, when the first Scandinavian material appeared again at the southern Baltic coast. Perhaps we have to deal with survival in elite’s memory in the North (runs, sagas) relationship between inhabitants of Scandinavia and of the lower Danube/Ukraine region through lower Vistula territory?"

And here another Migration Period settlement, discovered just several days ago:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?222914-New-Migration-Period-settlement-discovered-in-Wielkopolska

More from the same region:

http://naukawpolsce.pap.pl/aktualnosci/news,408368,migracje-ludnosci-sprzed-1500-lat-wplynely-na-ksztalt-wspolczesnej-europy.html

Translated to English:

"(...) Polish archaeologists long thought, that between the Migration Period and the Middle Ages a total collapse of settlement took place - areas of modern Poland were supposed to be abandoned by previous population, and it was thought that only after some time Slavs came from the east and re-settled the area.

But large-scale archeological studies conducted during the last few decades modify this picture, especially in case of Greater Poland [Wielkopolska region].

Archaeologists point out especially to discoveries from Konarzewo. There they have managed to find the larges up-to-now in Poland number of surviving dwellings, which falsifies the claim, that these areas were abandoned during the Migration Period. (...) Constructions are from the 5th and the 6th centuries. They are connected with people representing Przeworsk culture.

"Przeworks culture during its existence was an entity with an undoubtedly germanic cultural model, but it doesn't mean, that it was formed exclusively by Germanic population" - says prof. Michałowski

Prof. Michałowski cannot provide an explicit answer to the question who inhabited multiple settlements flourishing in Greater Poland in the 4th, 5th and 6th centuries. Material culture - excavated items - indicate germanic influences, "but we don't know what was really their ethnic identity - most likely they just considered themselves to be locals, born in that place, and desiring to live there until their death" - concludes prof. Michałowski.

It is thought that Slavs appeared in areas of present-day Poland in the 2nd half of the 6th century or in the 7th century.

Conclusions of prof. Michałowski are supported by findings of a team of scientists who are members of the research Project "Migration Period between Odra and Vistula" (LINK to project's website), directed by prof. Alexander Bursche.

These scientists have already established by now, that in the mid-1st millennium a total disappearance of human settlement did NOT take place in the territory of present-day Poland. According to this research team, the population adhering to germanic cultural traditions, which was present in the territory of present-day Poland during the Migration Period, stayed and became assimilated with the Slavs. (...)"

[Token]

...
Thanks for the kindness. So, going by the graphics that you posted, is it secure to assume that modern Polish population have around 10-15% Wielbark-like ancestry?

[Peterski]

Procopius, History of the Wars, III, xxii, 13-16:

"(...) Now as for those Vandals who remained in their native land [Poland?], neither remembrance nor any name of them has been preserved to my time. (...) they were either overpowered by the neighbouring barbarians or they were mingled with them not at all unwillingly and their name gave way to that of their conquerors. Indeed, when the Vandals were conquered at that time by Belisarius, no thought occurred to them to go from there to their ancestral homes. For they were not able to convey themselves suddenly from Libya to Europe, especially as they had no ships at hand, but paid the penalty [2] there for all the wrongs they had done the Romans and especially the Zacynthians. (...)"

[2] In Arcana, 18, 5 ff., Procopius estimates the number of the Vandals in Africa, at the time of Belisarius, at 80,000 males, and intimates that practically all perished.


Thanks for the kindness. So, going by the graphics that you posted, is it secure to assume that modern Polish population have around 10-15% Wielbark-like ancestry?

I guess so.

[Token]

...
I guess so.

It would be interesting to do the same thing in old Gothic settlements like Northern Italy, Spain and Septimania.

[Rethel]

Thanks for the kindness. So, going by the graphics that you posted, is it secure to assume that modern Polish population have around 10-15% Wielbark-like ancestry?

Eee... much more interesting would be, how many Wielbarkers live today...

[Ülev]

https://youtu.be/gaN1B7vkFOk

[Token]

Eee... much more interesting would be, how many Wielbarkers live today...

In what sense? I don't think it's possible to find a predominantly Wielbark-erish individual autossomally-wise.

[Rethel]

In what sense?

In normal - in what else?
They didn;t die out - it would be very hard for
them to do it, if they participated 15% in genotype.


I don't think it's possible to find a predominantly Wielbark-erish individual autossomally-wise.

:picard2:

[Token]

In normal - in what else?
They didn;t die out - it would be very hard for
them to do it, if they participated 15% in genotype.
:picard2:
They didn't died, they were completely assimilated by other populations like the West Slavs in Poland. :picard1:

[Rethel]

They didn't died, they were completely assimilated by other populations like the West Slavs in Poland. :picard1:

So logically, they are still here, aren't they?
The only problem is, to identify them and count.

[Token]

So logically, they are still here, aren't they?
The only problem is, to identify them and count.

The genetic legacy is still there, obviously, but i doubt that there's someone or a isolated group thay is predominantly Wielberkarish. Like i said, they were assimilated and even completely subjugated by other population, this is why the East Germanic languages died.

[Rethel]

The genetic legacy is still there, obviously, but i doubt that there's someone or a isolated group thay is predominantly Wielberkarish.

:picard2:


Like i said, they were assimilated and even completely subjugated by other population, this is why the East Germanic languages died.

So you yourself claim they did not die out.
If I will subjugate you, and cut off your tounge - will you stop to be yourself? :picard2:

[Token]

:picard2:
So you yourself claim they did not die out.
If I will subjugate you, and cut off your tounge - will you stop to be yourself? :picard2:
Your example makes no sense: linguistic, archeology, history and genetics are all connected. If a group is simply assimilated they leave a lot of linguistical influences in the language that they adopt, it's natural. You don't see East Germanic linguistical influences in the Polish language, for example, so we can expect a complete subjugation of the Germanic tribes by the Slavs, maybe because they were much more numerous.

[Rethel]

Your example makes no sense:

It makes perfect sense - it seems you do not know what you are talking about.


linguistic, archeology, history and genetics are all connected. If a group is simply assimilated they leave a lot of linguistical influences in the language that they adopt, it's natural.

Yes - and what? DID people died becasue of that? Toxic language or what?


You don't see East Germanic linguistical influences in the Polish language,

Yes, I see - there is a lot of borrowings.
But what? If would be more, then people would instantly appeared, but when is not too much - they are vanished? :picard2:
Btw, according to that logic, Anglosaxons have to be gone, replaced by Frenchmen... :laugh:
Much more Irs, which all died and now lived there Englishmen... :laugh:


for example, so we can expect a complete subjugation of the Germanic tribes by the Slavs, maybe because they were much more numerous.

Yes, and what? You seems to not understand what you've just said.
You said, that people x subjugated people y, so logocally, both must existed.
Ergo - you just proved, that slavs and Wielbarkers exist, so, what's your problem?

[Peterski]

Before East Germanic tribes such as Vandals and Goths, Poland was inhabited by the Lugiones.

The Lugiones are one of factions in EBII (which is a very historically accurate mod for M2TW):

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?413770-Preview-The-Lugiones

It is thought that they were a multi-ethnic federation of many tribes (Lugiorum nomen):

https://i.imgur.com/dojnCKO.png

http://oi49.tinypic.com/34gx4s5.jpg

http://oi49.tinypic.com/34gx4s5.jpg

[Token]

It makes perfect sense - it seems you do not know what you are talking about.
No, it don't makes. You just sound confused trying to prove something using non-sensical analogies.


Yes - and what? DID people died becasue of that? Toxic language or what?

So where are the East Germanic influences in Polish? There are any dialect of Polish heavily Vandalic or Gothic-influenced like the languages of Northern Italy that reflect perfectly what occurs when a different language is imposed in another different tongue? No.


Yes, I see - there is a lot of borrowings.

Cite one East Germanic feature found in the Polish language. I can cite the n-stem declension adopted by Spanish from Gothic (wardjan -> guardião), some war-related words and the genitive -ez from the Gothic -iks later latinized to -ici and have in mind that they where already heavily latinized before entering the peninsula. And you?


But what? If would be more, then people would instantly appeared, but when is not too much - they are vanished?

Btw, according to that logic, Anglosaxons have to be gone, replaced by Frenchmen...
Much more Irs, which all died and now lived there Englishmen...

The Norman language derived from French certainly influenced the English, mostly lexically and more visible in formal situations but still a heavy influence. But still, the Germanic structure remained intact and the English is still considered a West Germanic language so you just proved my point.
The Celticims in the English language is still obscure and need further research but the periphrastic 'do', loss of front rounded vowels and the rise of reflexives are just some that i can remember now.


Yes, and what? You seems to not understand what you've just said.
You said, that people x subjugated people y, so logocally, both must existed.
Ergo - you just proved, that slavs and Wielbarkers exist, so, what's your problem?
What i said is that the East Germanic population was completely absorbed by subjugation, probably because the Slavs outnumbered them by a long margin and this is backed by genetic evidences like those that Peterski posted. They mixed and the blood was diluted more and more if you still can't understand.

I think it's you that have some problem.

[Peterski]

Cite one East Germanic feature found in the Polish language.

I think that East Germanic borrowings existed already in Old Slavic. What is even more interesting (due to geography), some linguists say that there were West Germanic borrowings in Old Slavic.

Some of those borrowings could be from the Bastarnians (Bastarnae) though.

[Rethel]

No, it don't makes. You just sound confused trying to prove something using non-sensical analogies.

It is exactly what you sugested.
Not my fault, that you were talking nonsense.
So, please, do not put it on me.


So where are the East Germanic influences in Polish?

words for bred, sword, prince aso...


There are any dialect of Polish heavily Vandalic or Gothic-influenced

You are again talking nonsense.
You are disscussing with things, which I did not said.
Nothing strange, that you do not understand what we are talking about.
So, please, choose: either you are talking with your imaginable Rethel, or with real me.
If with the first one -I am ending this disscussion right now.


like the languages of Northern Italy that reflect perfectly what occurs when a different language is imposed in another different tongue? No.

And what? Lack of such dialect killed people?
And in Italy, existing of such dialect gave the life? :bored:


Cite one East Germanic feature found in the Polish language.

I just did above. Even three.


I can cite the n-stem declension adopted by Spanish from Gothic (wardjan -> guardião), some war-related words and the genitive -ez from the Gothic -iks later latinized to -ici and have in mind that they where already heavily latinized before entering the peninsula. And you?

Did it make Celtiberians true and real Goths from Scandia? :picard2:


The Norman language derived from French certainly influenced the English, mostly lexically and more visible in formal situations but still a heavy influence. But still, the Germanic structure remained intact and the English is still considered a West Germanic language so you just proved my point.
The Celticims in the English language is still obscure and need further research but the periphrastic 'do', loss of front rounded vowels and the rise of reflexives are just some that i can remember now.

You really have hard time with getting simple facts.
It was not a matter to debate english language.
I just showed you, how nonsensical your linguistic argument was.
No need for elaborating english matters. :bored:


What i said is that the East Germanic population was completely absorbed by subjugation, probably because the Slavs outnumbered them by a long margin and this is backed by genetic evidences like those that Peterski posted. They mixed and the blood was diluted more and more if you still can't understand.

And you again proved my point, acknowledging the fact,
that people survived. It is really so hard to get? :picard2:


I think it's you that have some problem.

No, you are the only one who have.
In one sentence you say, people are alive, and in the
second, you are denying that fact based on... language... :picard2:
can you finally decide what is your point? Did people extinct or they are alive?
They cannot be dead and alive at the same time.

[Peterski]

(...)

Here is the archaeological situation in the 6th century AD:

pustka osadn. = depopulated areas (based on current knowledge)
A - Prague-Korchak-Penkovka cultures (Slavic)
B - Kolochin culture (Slavic)
C and D - Przeworsk culture (leftovers who didn't emigrate)
E - new settlements established by immigrants from Sweden
F - new settlements by immigrants from Thuringia
G - West Balts settlement area
Sasi = Saxons settlement area

https://s16.postimg.org/o9snet751/Mapka.png

Check also:

"Archaeology of Early Medieval Poland" by Andrzej Buko (English edition):

https://brego-weard.com/lib/ns/The_Archaeology_of_Early_Medieval_Poland_Discov.pd f

https://books.google.pl/books?id=i6A3Q1WQIroC&pg=PA195&lpg=PA195&dq=Vladimir+went+to+Lachs+981&source=bl&ots=yLsVDe3ADn&sig=UcFvganPG-vlrKDE0FeCA2ECakw&hl=pl&sa=X&ei=G1KkU9epGe-h7AaA7IH4Dw&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Vladimir%20went%20to%20Lachs%20981&f=false

[Rethel]

C and D - Przeworsk culture (leftovers who didn't emigrate)

Pyrlandia - the gociest region ever? :laugh:

[Polak]

Lol

[Sacrificed Ram]

You don't see East Germanic linguistical influences in the Polish language, for example

But in portuguese... bandido.

[Peterski]

In one region of Poland peasants were called "gocie", probably derived from "Goths".

[Peterski]

Toponyms with "Got-", "Gut-" etc., possibly linked with Goths (but this connection is uncertain):

http://ksng.gugik.gov.pl/urzedowe_nazwy_miejscowosci.php

http://i.imgur.com/WIdfjVA.png

[Sacrificed Ram]

Visigoths in Iberia were already very iranized. But we need remember slavs closes with iranics due satemization. Pomeranians in Brazil claim sarmatian ancestry.

http://eaglesanddragonspublishing.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/Sarmatian-1.png

[Token]

It is exactly what you sugested. Not my fault, that you were talking nonsense. So, please, do not put it on me.
Don't blame me if you can't understand linguistics.


words for bred, sword, prince aso...
All the words that you cited comes from Proto-Slavic and are very early borrowings directly from Proto-Germanic that ocurred in the earliest stage of formation of the language.
Bread 'Chleb' from Proto-Slavic *xlěbъ.
Sword 'Miecz' from Proto-Slavic *mьčь.
Prince 'Książę' from Proto-Slavic *kъnędzь.
So, it's all that you have?


You are again talking nonsense. You are disscussing with things, which I did not said. Nothing strange, that you do not understand what we are talking about. So, please, choose: either you are talking with your imaginable Rethel, or with real me. If with the first one -I am ending this disscussion right now.
Now you can stop the ad hominem and start using real arguments. :bored:


And what? Lack of such dialect killed people? And in Italy, existing of such dialect gave the life?
Well, in Northern Italy just reflects what occurs when a existing population adopts a new tongue. In this case, the Gaulish population adopted Vulgar Latin by subjugation but you can still see heavy Celtic influence even after the Italian standardization.
Just a example: Pader nòster, che te seet in ciel che 'l sia faa sant el tò nòmm che 'l vegna el tò regn, che 'l sia faa 'l tò vorè, come in ciel, inscì anca in su la terra.
The same in Italian: Padre nostro che sei nei cieli, sia santificato il tuo Nome, venga il tuo Regno, sia fatta la tua Volontà come in cielo così in terra.
If the East Germanic population in Poland before the Slavic settlements were really considerably, these type of dialect would have existed till today.


I just did above. Even three.
You didn't. You just searched for Polish words of Germanic origin and posted here. :picard1:



Did it make Celtiberians true and real Goths from Scandia?
Never said or suggested that, are you talking with a imaginary Token?


You really have hard time with getting simple facts. It was not a matter to debate english language. I just showed you, how nonsensical your linguistic argument was. No need for elaborating english matters.
Again using ad hominem and zero concret arguments. :bored: You tried to use my linguistic arguments against me and i showed that your logic was flawed, simple as that. Or you didn't said "according to that logic, Anglosaxons have to be gone, replaced by Frenchmen... Much more Irs, which all died and now lived there Englishmen..."? :picard1:


And you again proved my point, acknowledging the fact, that people survived. It is really so hard to get?
People survived but mixed with the invaders and the Germanic blood was heavily diluted. Is it hard for you to understand?


No, you are the only one who have. In one sentence you say, people are alive, and in the second, you are denying that fact based on... language... can you finally decide what is your point? Did people extinct or they are alive? They cannot be dead and alive at the same time.
Language is very important and even you agreed with that so why you are denying it? Can you decide what you believe? And yes, the East Germanic people are extinct, i think it's obvious, but the genes are alive, heavily diluted but still alive.

[Rethel]

Don't blame me if you can't understand linguistics.

Don;t blame me, if you are talking about things, I was not talking about - answering me.


All the words that you cited comes from Proto-Slavic and are very early borrowings directly from Proto-Germanic that ocurred in the earliest stage of formation of the language.
Bread 'Chleb' from Proto-Slavic *xlěbъ.
Sword 'Miecz' from Proto-Slavic *mьčь.
Prince 'Książę' from Proto-Slavic *kъnędzь.
So, it's all that you have?

Are from gotish, and there is more - but as I said, I am not going disscuss irrelevant topic.


Now you can stop the ad hominem and start using real arguments. :bored:

It is hard to disscuss with your imagination - so I just informed you.


Well, in Northern Italy just reflects what occurs when a existing population adopts a new tongue. In this case, the Gaulish population adopted Vulgar Latin by subjugation but you can still see heavy Celtic influence even after the Italian standardization.
Just a example: Pader nòster, che te seet in ciel che 'l sia faa sant el tò nòmm che 'l vegna el tò regn, che 'l sia faa 'l tò vorè, come in ciel, inscì anca in su la terra.
The same in Italian: Padre nostro che sei nei cieli, sia santificato il tuo Nome, venga il tuo Regno, sia fatta la tua Volontà come in cielo così in terra.
If the East Germanic population in Poland before the Slavic settlements were really considerably, these type of dialect would have existed till today.

And then they would be Wielbarkers, regardless they are descendants
or not, only becasue would speak polish with gothic borrowings...? :picard2:


You didn't. You just searched for Polish words of Germanic origin and posted here. :picard1:

If I would search, I would paste here whole list of them. :picard1:


Again using ad hominem and zero concret arguments. :bored:

Arguments against irrelevant topic?
Men, I just said, I do not want disscuss things, which are totaly different topic.
What do you want me to argument about in such case? :picard2:
Supporting your offtopic? :bored:


You tried to use my linguistic arguments against me

I just am showing you how stupid it is...


People survived but mixed with the invaders and the Germanic blood was heavily diluted.

So you admitt they are alive. I am glad. Disscussion is finished.


Is it hard for you to understand?

Did I negate it somewhere?


Language is very important

Is not. Is important only as a feature of people - not otherwise. Irs
still are Irs, evern if they do not speak their language. They didn;t
died out, they didn't mutate into Saxons speaking their language.

[Token]

I think that East Germanic borrowings existed already in Old Slavic. What is even more interesting (due to geography), some linguists say that there were West Germanic borrowings in Old Slavic.
Some of those borrowings could be from the Bastarnians (Bastarnae) though.

Yes, probably from a Common East-Germanic language, but the greatest part of the Germanic words borrowed by Proto-Slavic comes directly from Proto-Germanic.

[Token]

So you admitt they are alove. I am glad. Disscussion is finished.
I've never denied that, i think you just misunderstood me. By the way, it was a interesting discussion, it is always good to hear other points of view.