Ancient Mycenaean and Minoan DNA - Not Indo-European?

[Dr Frasier Crane]

Forgive me for my ignorance on this matter.

I understand that the Mycenaeans had steppe input, more so than the Minoans, but overall would you say that both ethnic groups are lacking the ancestry to be considered actual Indo-Europeans? Since they also had distinctive Iranian and Caucasus DNA and that the Minoans, at least, had more Levantine DNA (I think Sikeliot mentioned this on another thread), would they be more akin to Anatolian and Cypriot Greeks who have more West Asian ancestry than mainland Greeks today? Should these early Greeks be classified as 'Near-Eastern' rather than 'European'?

P.S. Not a troll, just ignorant on the subject.

Correction - I meant just European. Was unaware Indo-European relates to language solely.

[Dibran]

It all depends on what you consider Indo-European. Their autosomal makeup or their Y-DNA? Autosomally speaking I would agree, they seem more Neolithic with some Steppe input. Like typical south/southeast europeans. Idk what their Ydna lines were though so I couldnt say.

[Dick]

Centum = early neolithic farmers from Near east. Satem = Steppe/Yamna. Both are IE and had various ydna's. It's not rocket science.

[nightrider+]

Mycenaeans, unlike most other peoples of their time considered Indo-European, have actually left behind concrete evidence that they were Indo-European.

[Sikeliot]

Mycenaeans were genetically like the equivalent of Sicilians with around 25% Sardinian, so they were indeed more distinctly "Mediterranean" in that they descended from the Neolithic Anatolian population who spread throughout Europe and remains most purely preserved in Sardinia. This does not make them Near Eastern to me.

[Lavrentis]

Why did you create a sockpuppet just to ask this question, OP?

[Dr Frasier Crane]

Idk what their Ydna lines were though so I couldnt say
From what I remember, they were mostly J2 and G

Centum = early neolithic farmers from Near east. Satem = Steppe/Yamna. Both are IE and had various ydna's. It's not rocket science.
That seems to be a rather gnomic response, since those classifications are primarily utilised for languages. But by your logic, do you consider Iranians to be European since they have a Satem language? I doubt it. And since neolithic farmers, to my understanding, are Levantine in make-up, do you consider Levantines to be European too?

Mycenaeans, unlike most other peoples of their time considered Indo-European, have actually left behind concrete evidence that they were Indo-European.
I assume you mean linguistically, but if not, what? Their DNA doesn't seem to be.

[Dr Frasier Crane]

Why did you create a sockpuppet just to ask this question, OP?

Sorry, I am new at this. I'll delete the thread and start it again somewhere else, if you'd like.

[nightrider+]

I assume you mean linguistically, but if not, what? Their DNA doesn't seem to be.

IE is a language family, nothing else. No such thing as Indo-European DNA.

[Dr Frasier Crane]

Mycenaeans were genetically like the equivalent of Sicilians with around 25% Sardinian, so they were indeed more distinctly "Mediterranean" in that they descended from the Neolithic Anatolian population who spread throughout Europe and remains most purely preserved in Sardinia. This does not make them Near Eastern to me.

But you always talk about how the original Sicilians had a increased Levantine input?

[Dr Frasier Crane]

IE is a language family, nothing else. No such thing as Indo-European DNA.

Okay, my apologies. What I meant, then, was European in terms of DNA.

[Lavrentis]

Sorry, I am new at this. I'll delete the thread and start it again somewhere else, if you'd like.

No man, you're not new at this. You even started this thread with saying "Sikeliot has mentioned it many times" and now you say that Sikeliot always talks about increased Levantine input in Sicilians.

[Dr Frasier Crane]

No man, you're not new at this. You even started this thread with saying "Sikeliot has mentioned it many times" and now you say that Sikeliot always talks about increased Levantine input in Sicilians.

I'm new at actually posting. I'd find threads on google.

[Sikeliot]

But you always talk about how the original Sicilians had a increased Levantine input?

I thought so, but now I think the Levantine input is more recent, since even Minoans were further from the Levant than are modern Cretans.

[Dr Frasier Crane]

I thought so, but now I think the Levantine input is more recent, since even Minoans were further from the Levant than are modern Cretans.

Ah, then I must have misread your other post. Do you have a hypothesis as to how recent and from where?

[Sikeliot]

Ah, then I must have misread your other post. Do you have a hypothesis as to how recent and from where?

I do not, no. In Sicily it would be due to Phoenicians and the Arab conquest. In Crete possibly due to trade?

[Dr Frasier Crane]

I do not, no. In Sicily it would be due to Phoenicians and the Arab conquest. In Crete possibly due to trade?

Are you speaking of only western Sicily or Sicily as a whole? It would be strange for Sicilians to have more Levantine DNA as opposed to Greek. Greeks held more colonies in the region for longer. If they do, could some of that west-asian DNA in Sicily actually be from the Greeks?

That's with the understanding that the Arab conquests left a negligible impact on the island.

[Sikeliot]

Are you speaking of only western Sicily or Sicily as a whole? It would be strange for Sicilians to have more Levantine DNA as opposed to Greek. Greeks held more colonies in the region for longer. If they do, could some of that west-asian DNA in Sicily actually be from the Greeks?

That's with the understanding that the Arab conquests left a negligible impact on the island.


Mycenaeans plotted further from the Levant than modern day Sicilians do, and Greeks have only since gotten more mainstream European. How could the West Asian influence possibly be from Greece? That makes no sense at all.

Also, parts of Sicily do not have any Greek ancestry -- most people in Palermo do not nor do large parts of Caltanissetta, Messina, or Agrigento. All of these places are the ones with the MOST West Asian, while the region with the most Greek -- Syracuse/Ragusa/Enna -- has the least.

There is influence in Sicily, from North Africa and the Levant, absent in Greece. Thus, it must have arrived either with Phoenicians or during the Arab conquest.

[Dr Frasier Crane]

Mycenaeans plotted further from the Levant than modern day Sicilians do, and Greeks have only since gotten more mainstream European. How could the West Asian influence possibly be from Greece? That makes no sense at all.

Also, parts of Sicily do not have any Greek ancestry -- most people in Palermo do not nor do large parts of Caltanissetta, Messina, or Agrigento. All of these places are the ones with the MOST West Asian, while the region with the most Greek -- Syracuse/Ragusa/Enna -- has the least.

There is influence in Sicily, from North Africa and the Levant, absent in Greece. Thus, it must have arrived either with Phoenicians or during the Arab conquest.

Thank you for educating me. As I said, sorry for being ignorant.

[Messier 67]

Indo-European is Haplogroup R.

The study found Caucasoids only, no Indo-Europeans:

66455

[wvwvw]

I do not, no. In Sicily it would be due to Phoenicians and the Arab conquest. In Crete possibly due to trade?

The Cypriots appear the closest to Bronze Age Greeks

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qDAN5pZ8Qm0/WYUXuKv8fPI/AAAAAAAAF80/ltaSA7RXUEMCELq5ceMKYmdDqxHpH4nNwCLcBGAs/s1600/Minoans_%2526_Mycenaeans.png

[Dr Frasier Crane]

The Cypriots appear the closest to Bronze Age Greeks

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qDAN5pZ8Qm0/WYUXuKv8fPI/AAAAAAAAF80/ltaSA7RXUEMCELq5ceMKYmdDqxHpH4nNwCLcBGAs/s1600/Minoans_%2526_Mycenaeans.png

Thank you for answering the second part of my question!

That does make sense to me. Cyprus never experienced a Dorian influx and the majority of the island's colonisation was during the Mycenaean age.

[wvwvw]

Indo-European is Haplogroup R.

The study found Caucasoids only, no Indo-Europeans:

66455

Indo-Steppes or not, the Minoans spoke proto-Greek an IE language.

The Minoans of 3000 BC like the whole region from Balkans to Anatolia probably spoke Greco-Anatolian a language that should have been very similar to proto-Greek.

The Steppers did not speak IE.

[wvwvw]

Thank you for answering the second part of my question!

That does make sense to me. Cyprus never experienced a Dorian influx and the majority of the island's colonisation was during the Mycenaean age.

The Myceneans were Pelasgians and the Pelasgians were Dorians. They just came in different waves to Greece. The first wave became the Pelasgians a Pelasgo-Minoan mix, and the Pelasgians that were left behind isolated became the Dorians.

[wvwvw]

Are you speaking of only western Sicily or Sicily as a whole? It would be strange for Sicilians to have more Levantine DNA as opposed to Greek. Greeks held more colonies in the region for longer. If they do, could some of that west-asian DNA in Sicily actually be from the Greeks?

That's with the understanding that the Arab conquests left a negligible impact on the island.

The Greeks split from the Sicilians 2000 years ago. After the Roman conquest of Sicily and the loss of Greek control, the composition of the island changed too, Romans, Normans, Jews have colonized the island. We simply took separate ways.

The Phoenicians never had viable colonies in Sicily.

[Dr Frasier Crane]

The Cypriots appear the closest to Bronze Age Greeks

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-qDAN5pZ8Qm0/WYUXuKv8fPI/AAAAAAAAF80/ltaSA7RXUEMCELq5ceMKYmdDqxHpH4nNwCLcBGAs/s1600/Minoans_%2526_Mycenaeans.png

Does this also mean the Bronze Age Greeks also had more of a Levantine input than modern Greeks do today, or are you saying Cypriots are closer related to them despite their Levantine ancestry?

[wvwvw]

Also, parts of Sicily do not have any Greek ancestry -- most people in Palermo do not nor do large parts of Caltanissetta, Messina, or Agrigento. All of these places are the ones with the MOST West Asian, while the region with the most Greek -- Syracuse/Ragusa/Enna -- has the least.

There is influence in Sicily, from North Africa and the Levant, absent in Greece. Thus, it must have arrived either with Phoenicians or during the Arab conquest.

Parts of Sicily do not have Greek ancestry now. That means nothing, because Sicily was conquered by the Romans and was colonized. The Northern African and Levantine influence in Sicily might come from the Carthagians and Jews during Roman times.

[Sikeliot]

Parts of Sicily do not have Greek ancestry now. That means nothing, because Sicily was conquered by the Romans and was colonized. The Northern African and Levantine influence in Sicily might come from the Carthagians and Jews during Roman times.

My guess is that assimilated Jews contributed much of it (and these Jews would have been like actual Levantines, not like Ashkenazim today) and then the rest was a mixture of North African Muslims, Phoenicians, and other people brought during Arab rule.

[wvwvw]

Does this also mean the Bronze Age Greeks also had more of a Levantine input than modern Greeks do today, or are you saying Cypriots are closer related to them despite their Levantine ancestry?

Ancestrally. both Mycenaeans and Minoans were basically Mediterranean, well outside the variation of most Europeans and Near Easterners and >75% from early European-Anatolian farmers.

They weren't pure Mediterraneans, but also partly "West_Asian". Bronze Age people from S.W. Anatolia were even more "West_Asian".

Mycenaeans also had some "Ancient North Eurasian" ancestry, which may have come from either the north or east of Greece.

Two Minoans and a Mycenaean were haplogroup J2, one Minoan was G.
One high-status Mycenaean female from Messenia was not different from the other three Mycenaeans.

Modern Greeks from Greece are more "northern", more "European", and less "Mediterranean" than the Mycenaeans. Bust, Fst-wise Modern Greeks (and Cypriots) are still fairly close to Mycenaeans, more so than other people from Europe and the Middle East.

[Sikeliot]

Thank you for educating me. As I said, sorry for being ignorant.

For what it is worth, Palermo/Agrigento and inland western and northeast Sicily have the most Middle Eastern on the island, while the southeast, east-central, and Trapani have less. But only the southeast comes close to plotting like mainland southern Greeks (Laconia).

[Dr Frasier Crane]

Ancestrally. both Mycenaeans and Minoans were basically Mediterranean, well outside the variation of most Europeans and Near Easterners and >75% from early European-Anatolian farmers.

They weren't pure Mediterraneans, but also partly "West_Asian". Bronze Age people from S.W. Anatolia were even more "West_Asian".

Mycenaeans also had some "Ancient North Eurasian" ancestry, which may have come from either the north or east of Greece.

Two Minoans and a Mycenaean were haplogroup J2, one Minoan was G.
One high-status Mycenaean female from Messenia was not different from the other three Mycenaeans.

Modern Greeks from Greece are more "northern", more "European", and less "Mediterranean" than the Mycenaeans. Bust, Fst-wise Modern Greeks (and Cypriots) are still fairly close to Mycenaeans, more so than other people from Europe and the Middle East.

Thanks for clarifying.

[Sikeliot]

Thanks for clarifying.


Let me try this.. this is a Sicilian from Ragusa (an area with more Greek input) and then one from Agrigento (one of the less Hellenized regions with more Near Eastern). You can see the difference. The Sicilian is in fact more Near Eastern than the Mycenaean I put first here, as are Cypriots, Cretans, etc.

Mycenaeans have more affinity to the early Neolithic people of Europe, modeled by Sardinians today (really it is a Neolithic Anatolian component though). While Sicilians and Aegean islanders, heck even Laconians, have more Near Eastern affinity than them.

Mycenaean:


# Population Percent
1 ANATOLIA_NEOLITHIC 37.36
2 CHG_EEF 29.52
3 NATUFIAN 13.73
4 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 10.07
5 EHG 6.29
6 SHG_WHG 2.41
7 PAPUAN 0.49
8 SE_ASIAN 0.13

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 16.17
2 Sardinian 16.3
3 Albanian 17.92
4 Greek 18.36
5 Italian_South 19.33
6 Jew_Ashkenazi 19.91
7 Jew_Moroccan 20.15
8 Cypriot 21.74
9 Jew_Tunisian 22.67
10 Jew_Libyan 22.86
11 Bulgarian 22.88
12 Stuttgart 24.6
13 Turkish 25.41
14 Turkish_Istanbul 25.74
15 Romanian 26
16 Turkish_Balekesir 26.91
17 Lebanese 27.89
18 Turkish_Aydin 28.15
19 Turkish_Adana 28.31
20 Turkish_Kayseri 28.41

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 79.6% Sicilian + 20.4% Anatolia_N @ 3.92
2 76% Jew_Ashkenazi + 24% Anatolia_N @ 4.7
3 77.2% Sicilian + 22.8% Europe_EN @ 4.85
4 76.6% Italian_South + 23.4% Anatolia_N @ 4.97
5 61% Sicilian + 39% Stuttgart @ 5
6 60.7% Stuttgart + 39.3% Chechen @ 5.18
7 51.2% Stuttgart + 48.8% Turkish_Istanbul @ 5.35
8 58.9% Stuttgart + 41.1% Kumyk @ 5.41
9 73.2% Jew_Ashkenazi + 26.8% Europe_EN @ 5.42
10 62% Stuttgart + 38% Lezgin @ 5.42
11 55.6% Jew_Ashkenazi + 44.4% Stuttgart @ 5.63
12 77.8% Greek + 22.2% Anatolia_N @ 5.76
13 73.9% Italian_South + 26.1% Europe_EN @ 5.84
14 59.4% Stuttgart + 40.6% Adygei @ 5.99
15 53.7% Stuttgart + 46.3% Turkish_Adana @ 6.07
16 50.9% Stuttgart + 49.1% Turkish @ 6.12
17 53.8% Stuttgart + 46.2% Turkish_Kayseri @ 6.55
18 58.1% Greek + 41.9% Stuttgart @ 6.67
19 78.6% Albanian + 21.4% Anatolia_N @ 6.69
20 58% Stuttgart + 42% Balkar @ 6.7



Ragusa:


# Population Percent
1 CHG_EEF 30.19
2 ANATOLIA_NEOLITHIC 24.46
3 NATUFIAN 14.12
4 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 12.98
5 EHG 7.62
6 SHG_WHG 6.89
7 PAPUAN 2.1
8 SUB_SAHARAN 0.9
9 SIBERIAN 0.68
10 SE_ASIAN 0.05

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Sicilian 5.67
2 Greek 8.19
3 Jew_Ashkenazi 9.21
4 Albanian 9.54
5 Italian_South 10.5
6 Jew_Moroccan 12.15
7 Bulgarian 13.96
8 Turkish 14.88
9 Turkish_Istanbul 14.97
10 Cypriot 15.57
11 Jew_Tunisian 17.14
12 Jew_Libyan 17.16
13 Turkish_Balekesir 17.21
14 Romanian 17.45
15 Turkish_Aydin 18.36
16 Turkish_Adana 18.89
17 Turkish_Kayseri 19.2
18 Lebanese 20.78
19 Sardinian 22.46
20 Croatian 22.59

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 90% Sicilian + 10% Anatolia_ChL @ 3.17
2 92.6% Sicilian + 7.4% Europe_MNChL @ 3.78
3 89.7% Sicilian + 10.3% Armenia_ChL @ 3.85
4 94.3% Sicilian + 5.7% Europe_EN @ 4.12
5 95.1% Sicilian + 4.9% Anatolia_N @ 4.21
6 92.3% Sicilian + 7.7% Steppe_IA @ 4.5
7 84% Jew_Ashkenazi + 16% Anatolia_ChL @ 4.52
8 86.2% Greek + 13.8% Anatolia_ChL @ 4.61
9 85% Albanian + 15% Levant_BA @ 4.76
10 92.6% Sicilian + 7.4% Armenia_MLBA @ 4.78
11 92.4% Sicilian + 7.6% Stuttgart @ 4.81
12 96.8% Sicilian + 3.2% Steppe_Eneolithic @ 4.94
13 87.2% Jew_Ashkenazi + 12.8% Europe_MNChL @ 4.94
14 89.2% Greek + 10.8% Levant_N @ 5.01
15 97.3% Sicilian + 2.7% Steppe_EMBA @ 5.06
16 96.4% Sicilian + 3.6% MA1 @ 5.08
17 94.8% Sicilian + 5.2% Iran_recent @ 5.08
18 97.4% Sicilian + 2.6% EHG @ 5.09
19 89.3% Jew_Ashkenazi + 10.7% Europe_EN @ 5.14
20 82.2% Italian_South + 17.8% Anatolia_ChL @ 5.19



Agrigento:


# Population Percent
1 CHG_EEF 28.08
2 ANATOLIA_NEOLITHIC 22.07
3 NATUFIAN 18.18
4 IRAN_NEOLITHIC 17.48
5 EHG 5.15
6 SHG_WHG 4.95
7 SUB_SAHARAN 1.62
8 SIBERIAN 1.51
9 SE_ASIAN 0.95

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Jew_Moroccan 6.12
2 Sicilian 7.62
3 Jew_Ashkenazi 8.07
4 Cypriot 8.82
5 Italian_South 11.52
6 Jew_Tunisian 11.54
7 Turkish 11.71
8 Jew_Libyan 11.82
9 Greek 12.07
10 Turkish_Istanbul 12.33
11 Turkish_Adana 13.22
12 Turkish_Kayseri 13.64
13 Lebanese 13.74
14 Turkish_Aydin 14.69
15 Turkish_Balekesir 14.73
16 Albanian 14.76
17 Druze 16.83
18 Jordanian 17.52
19 Syrian 17.62
20 Turkish_Trabzon 17.64

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 82.9% Jew_Ashkenazi + 17.1% Armenia_ChL @ 3.53
2 66.6% Sicilian + 33.4% Lebanese @ 3.79
3 85.8% Jew_Ashkenazi + 14.2% Anatolia_ChL @ 3.81
4 73.8% Sicilian + 26.2% Jew_iraqi @ 3.87
5 82.4% Cypriot + 17.6% Europe_LNBA @ 4.01
6 52% Lebanese + 48% Albanian @ 4.03
7 54.9% Sicilian + 45.1% Cypriot @ 4.13
8 90.5% Jew_Moroccan + 9.5% Steppe_IA @ 4.17
9 86.8% Sicilian + 13.2% Iran_recent @ 4.21
10 89.3% Jew_Moroccan + 10.7% Europe_LNBA @ 4.27
11 89% Jew_Moroccan + 11% Armenia_ChL @ 4.31
12 73% Sicilian + 27% Jordanian @ 4.32
13 75.6% Sicilian + 24.4% Jew_Iranian @ 4.36
14 53.7% Greek + 46.3% Lebanese @ 4.38
15 76.9% Jew_Moroccan + 23.1% Albanian @ 4.42
16 89.5% Jew_Moroccan + 10.5% Armenia_MLBA @ 4.42
17 59.5% Jew_Moroccan + 40.5% Sicilian @ 4.43
18 72.7% Jew_Moroccan + 27.3% Greek @ 4.43
19 75.9% Sicilian + 24.1% Assyrian @ 4.48
20 73.5% Sicilian + 26.5% Syrian @ 4.5

[Loki]

Troll = troll = sockpuppet. I'll put an end to this.