Yulia Tymoshenko

[Psychonaut]

Classify the current Prime Minister of Ukraine, Yulia Tymoshenko:

http://www.mukachevo.net/img/news_img/p_12010.jpg

http://blog.kievukraine.info/uploaded_images/4915-786333.jpg

http://vogelblog.de/bilder/Thomas.Vogel.Tengen.Presse-Yulia-Tymoshenko-new.jpg

http://www.europarl.europa.eu/eplive/expert/photo/20080129PHT19888/pict_20080129PHT19888.jpg

http://culture11.com/blogs/ladyblog/files/2008/09/yulia.jpg

http://www.bittenandbound.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/prime-minister-of-ukraine-yulia-tymoshenko.jpg

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1009/csmimg/OTYMO_P3.jpg

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o8IYMUN48HY/R7UGupQU7_I/AAAAAAAAB_U/K5rVuV0TL7I/s400/3033-700713.jpg

http://www.neurope.eu/images/shooting/796.gif

http://www.asiaone.com/a1media/justwomen/10Oct08/yulia_tymoshenko.jpg

[Vulpix]

Her eye color is quite dark; her natural hair color is most likely much darker too. Not sure if this is her natural hair color:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/natal-charts/images/yulia-tymoshenko.php.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/cesaresc/YuliaTimoshenko-300.jpg

http://www.kmu.gov.ua/img/publishing/85181442/image001.jpg


A good pic for classification:


http://www.geocities.com/orpheusandlyra/CPAC_2007/March2/Yulia_Tymoshenko.jpg

[Psychonaut]

Her natural hair color is probably much darker, I'll see if I can find a pic.

This perhaps?

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/natal-charts/images/yulia-tymoshenko.php.jpg

I can never tell if hair is dyed or not. :dunno:

EDIT: You beat me to it ;)

[Absinthe]

I'd say Pontid and Baltid, maybe slightly dinarisiced too. She wouldn't look out of place in the south slavic countries either. :)

[Osweo]

Straight forward Alpinind, no? Dash of Baltid perhaps. Very common in the Eastern Slavonic lands. Reminiscent of my ex.

[Hors]

Straight forward Alpinind, no? Dash of Baltid perhaps. Very common in the Eastern Slavonic lands.

Not in Russia.

[Spencer]

I'd say she is pred. Alpinid with some other influences that I'm not sure.

[Aemma]

I don't know anything about classification but she does put me in mind of the late Grace Kelly. :)

Cheers!...Aemma

[Osweo]

Not in Russia.

Yes in Russia.

Or perhaps I spent the last few years working there with my eyes closed? :rolleyes2:

Do you just say what you do from a dislike of Khokhly? Like it or not, there are plenty down there, even in the far west, that wouldn't look out of place in Arkhangelsk or Yaroslavl.

[Hors]

I'm ready to endorse your point of view given you admit that the below look is very common in England

http://philscanvas.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/30cnd-paki_lg.jpg

[Osweo]

Instead of saying stupid things like that, you could explain how Yuliya's features are so alien to your people. Of course, it can't really be done. She's not even particularly exotic an example for the Ukraine. I've seen Russians from Saratov and Tambov that look far more odd. They're still Russians though.

Tell me, are you one of those who thinks blond hair and blue eyes are the prerequisites for true nastoyaschaya russkost'?

[Hors]

Instead of saying stupid things like that, you could explain how Paki's features are so alien to your people. Of course, it can't really be done. They are not even particularly exotic an example for Wales. I've seen Britons from York and Exeter that look far more odd. They're still British though.

Tell me, are you one of those who thinks blond hair and blue eyes are the prerequisites for true WASPness?

[Loki]

Thread subscription added! :D

:fcinema:

[Psychonaut]

Instead of saying stupid things like that, you could explain how Paki's features are so alien to your people. Of course, it can't really be done. They are not even particularly exotic an example for Wales. I've seen Britons from York and Exeter that look far more odd. They're still British though.

Tell me, are you one of those who thinks blond hair and blue eyes are the prerequisites for true WASPness?

I don't know a whole lot about Eastern European types, which is why I wanted some clarification on her. Could we keep the discussion about her morphotype rather than Pakis in Britain?

[Sventovit]

Again, sorry to resurrect a very old thread, but certain things on the subject simply need to be pointed out.


Instead of saying stupid things like that, you could explain how Yuliya's features are so alien to your people.

How did Hors say anything stupid? Yulia Timoshenko, nee Grigyan, is an ethnic Armenian - in other words, she and her ilk have precisely the same relationship to Russia and Russians as the Pakis in the picture Hors posted do to Britan and the British.


Of course, it can't really be done. She's not even particularly exotic an example for the Ukraine. I've seen Russians from Saratov and Tambov that look far more odd. They're still Russians though.

First of all, that whole area, Saratov especially has more than its share of Tatars, Mokshan, and other Turks/Ugro-Finns, some of whom are known to claim Russian ethnicity despite not having a drop of Russian blood. This has been a well-known phenomenon since Soviet times when members of various Ugro-Finnic "little peoples" were practically tripping over themselves trying to become Russified, because they saw the Russian language, a Russian last name, and a Russian self-identification as a ticket to advancement. Anecdotaly, an Armenian acquaintance on a Russian anthropological forum claims that 10% of his Armenian friends in Moscow counted themselves as "Russian" during the last Russian Federation census when ethnicity was a field on the forms. Finally, there are various first-generation "Soviet hybrids", whom unfortunately almost often co-opt a Russian self-identification (for instance, around 80% of children of mixed Chuvash-Russian marriages identify themselves as Russian, and only 20% as Chuvash). While it may be true that most of these people consider themselves every bit as Russian as someone whose had only Great Russians in his genealogy for the past four generations, and that they speak Russian as well as any bona fide Great Russian, they can no more in good conscience be called 'ethnic Russians' than some half-Paki half-English hybrid waving a Union Jack around on holidays (and trust me, I've met Paki hybrids and even full-blooded Pakis from Britain who consider themselves as British as Admiral Nelson and the Duke of Wellington). Just as most Britishers know the difference between themselves, even their darker varieties and vagrants from the Indian subcontinent, most Russians know the difference between their own and others. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, given that you don't appear to see any significant difference between an obvious Armenian and most Russians, I would be very cautious before appointing you chief arbiter of 'russianness' on the forum or elsewhere :D.


Tell me, are you one of those who thinks blond hair and blue eyes are the prerequisites for true nastoyaschaya russkost'?

The overwhelming majority of ethnic Russians have light and light-mixed eyes and brown-to-blond hair - even the most ardent antifascist will usually agree with this. According to anthropologists, amongst the 'core' Great Russian population the frequency of dark eyes is only 4% (and even amongst the most peripheral groups it never rises above 18%), the frequency of light and mixed eyes is 96%, and the frequency of light hair is 33%.

[la bombe]

Pretty textbook Gorid (east-Alpinid) IMO.

[Sventovit]

Pretty textbook Gorid (east-Alpinid) IMO.

So perhaps typical for Little Russians (they call themselves Ukrainians nowadays), but certainly not for Great Russians, although Alpines of various sorts are found among SW G. Russians whose anthropological type overlaps with that of neighboring Ukrainians. She is certainly not a light/mix-eyed, brown haired, gracile hypsicephalic leptoprosopic leptorhine mesocephal, which is the quickest way I can describe the general Russian type (Bunak's "Central-East European").

[Cail]

Timoshenko is half-Armenian, half-Ashkenazi Jewish afaik.

[Hussar]

The overwhelming majority of ethnic Russians have light and light-mixed eyes and brown-to-blond hair - even the most ardent antifascist will usually agree with this. According to anthropologists, amongst the 'core' Great Russian population the frequency of dark eyes is only 4% (and even amongst the most peripheral groups it never rises above 18%), the frequency of light and mixed eyes is 96%, and the frequency of light hair is 33%.


Come on. 4% is way too low.


Ok, russians aren't dark, but that 4% is probably referred to the very dark eyes (pure brown on the darker side).


Even in Scandinavia or Ireland (the most light eyed zones on the earth) the dark,dark-mixed eyes reach a 20-25%.


Besides you're mentioning light eyes and mixed eyes, summed togheter. It increases very much the number.

[Sventovit]

Come on. 4% is way too low.


Ok, russians aren't dark, but that 4% is probably referred to the very dark eyes (pure brown on the darker side).


Nope, all brown and yellow eyes are included.


Even in Scandinavia or Ireland (the most light eyed zones on the earth) the dark,dark-mixed eyes reach a 20-25%.

According to whose data? If your data are correct, then Scandinavia and Ireland will have to give up it's top place in the depigmentation game to the Baltic sea coast. Estonians, Finns, and Finnish Swedes have 64-70% pure light eyes (Russians, in contrast, have 45% pure lights; ranging from 35 to 59% depending on the region).


Besides you're mentioning light eyes and mixed eyes, summed togheter. It increases very much the number.

This is technically true, but most mixed eyes among Russians are green and green-gray (the first and second most common mixed eye shades according to Bunak); green-brown and other light + brown mixtures account for 8% of shades. So amongst Russians mixed eye shades really are more or less light.

Anyway, if it seems like Great Russians are depigmented, it is because they are pretty depigmented; lighter than Germans certainly, in general about as blond as Scandinavians, but not particularly depigmented by the standards of Northeast Europe - Baltic Finns and Latvians (but not Lithuanians), as I said, are noticeably lighter eyed and lighter haired than Russians are.

Keep in mind that the population being discussed here is not that of Russia in its entirety, nor everyone calling himself Russian, but people who were counted by Soviet anthropologists as members of the Great Russian ethnic group during the 1950s (i.e. people with four Russian grandparents).

[Hussar]

Anyway, if it seems like Great Russians are depigmented, it is because they are pretty depigmented; lighter than Germans certainly



Zyklop will kill you :tongue:D

[The Black Prince]

Come on. 4% is way too low.


Ok, russians aren't dark, but that 4% is probably referred to the very dark eyes (pure brown on the darker side).


Even in Scandinavia or Ireland (the most light eyed zones on the earth) the dark,dark-mixed eyes reach a 20-25%.


Besides you're mentioning light eyes and mixed eyes, summed togheter. It increases very much the number.


Nope, all brown and yellow eyes are included.

I think Sventovit speaks about 'true' Ethnic Russians (also Great-Russians called I believe). However 4% for brown and 'amber' I do think is to low.


The modern Great Russians vary in head form from a mean cephalic index of 78 to 79 in parts of the old Scythian country of South-central Russia to 83 and 84 farther north and east. The mesocephalic and low brachycephalic index levels represent the usual Danubian reëmergence with the absorption of the old forest types; in the west from an entirely Slavic and in the east from a partially Finnish source. Head dimensions among these Great Russians are medium to small, and comparable to those found among the Volhynians, White Russians, and Finns. The faces of these people are likewise similar to those of the other Slavs mentioned; although they often appear to be wide, the male bizygomatic means rarely exceed 140 mm. The nasal indices usually approach or attain mesorrhiny.104 There is a great variability in nasal profile, with at least 25 per cent of concavity in most of the country. In pigmentation the Great Russians, like all Slavs previously studied, are predominantly light-mixed, with a tendency to brown and ash-blond hair, and light-mixed eyes. The lightest pigmentation is found in the western part of the Great Russian territory, and blondism decreases gradually to the south and east. The peasants who have migrated to Siberia, however, have taken with them a greater blondism than is typical of most of Russia; over 70 per cent of hair colors lighter than dark brown, and under 30 per cent of brown eyes, characterize the subjects measured in various Siberian districts.105

The Great Russians of a special area lying partly in the Tambov, Penza, and Saratov Governments, who form a mesocephalic nucleus in the country half way between Moscow and the mouth of the Volga, have been subjected to a detailed study,106 which shows them to be essentially Nordic. A mean stature of 169 cm., a cephalic index just under 79, and a head length of 192 mm., indicate an initial resemblance to Nordics or brunet Mediterraneans. The auricular height mean of about 130 mm. is greater than that of Scandinavian Nordics, however, as are the bizygomatic of 140 mm. and the bigonial of 109 mm., while the minimum frontal of 105 mm. is more nearly Nordic than the other lateral dimensions. The face height, 125 mm., yields a facial index on the borderline of mesoprosopy and leptoprosopy; the nasal index, about 65, is derived from a mean nose length of 55 mm. and a breadth of nearly 36 mm.

Half of these Great Russians have wavy hair, the other half straight; the head hair is dark brown (Fischer #4-5) in 30 per cent of the series studied, and almost never black; it is medium brown (Fischer #6-10) in about 50 per cent, and light brown in most of the rest. Rufosity is rare, but at the same time most of the blondism falls on the golden side. About 8 per cent have brown eyes, nearly 30 per cent light, and the rest mixed. Thus these tall, mesocephalic Great Russians are brown to dark brown-haired, and essentially mixed to light eyed. Their facial features conform in most cases to a Nordic standard; the nasal profile is straight or wavy in over 65 per cent of the group, convex in 25 per cent, and concave in the 10 per cent that is left.

Individually as well as collectively, most of these men look Nordic in either a complete or a partial sense; others, in the minority, with concave, up-tilted noses and wide faces, approximate the forest type of incipiently mongoloid trend. The facial dimensions, with their accent on the heaviness of the mandible, diverge from a western European Nordic standard, but conform to that of the eastern Nordic type found skeletally among Scythians and in the Minussinsk kurgans; they also conform to a brunet Mediterranean type which we shall see in other regions bordering the Black Sea. The high vault, and the prevalence of brown hair in combination with light eyes, suggests a major survival of the Corded element so lacking elsewhere in most of eastern Europe; since the Slavs elsewhere have to a large extent lost this element, it seems likely that the people in question are the descendants of earlier Iranian inhabitants as much as of Slavic immigrants.

North of the grasslands, in the old forested country, the Great Russians resume their expected racial character, and their resemblance to White Russians, western Ukrainians, and Poles. The difference between eastern Great Russians, living in Finnic territory, and the indigenous Finns, may be seen by a comparison between Cheremisses and Mordvins, on the one hand, and their Russian neighbors.107 The Russians are taller than Cheremisses but shorter than Mordvins; hence no distinction may be made on the basis of stature. The relative sitting height is the same, as are the head length, head breadth, head height, and the total face height. The bizygomatic of the Russians, however, is 138 mm., as compared to 140 mm. for Cheremisses and 141 mm. for Mordvins; the nasal index of the Russians is 64, that of the Mordvins 65, of the Cheremisses 71. Thus the only differences that can be seen anthropometrically are those which concern the breadths of the face and nose, and these only to a slight degree.

Source: TROE (http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/12-09.htm)

Coon used as source:
105 Zeland, N. L., RALJ, vol. 3, 1900, pp. 75-82; Anth, vol. 13, 1902, pp. 222-232.
106 Debetz, G., AZM, 1933, pp. 34-57.
107 Bunak, V., RAJ, vol. 13, 1924, pp. 178-207; also résumé in AAnz, vol. 2, 1925, pp. 109-110.



The lightest 'Nordid' group according to Debetz had:
About 8 per cent have brown eyes, nearly 30 per cent light, and the rest mixed.

I don't know anything about Debetz..

However according to Coon Bunak is the best on Russian data: To readers unacquainted with Russian, Bunak's work is perhaps the most useful single source on the physicial anthropology of modern Russia.

[The Black Prince]

Oh, and the woman this thread is about. I would say Alpinid with Taurid influences.

[Sventovit]

Coon's data is outdated and used small sample sizes. See below:


I think Sventovit speaks about 'true' Ethnic Russians (also Great-Russians called I believe). However 4% for brown and 'amber' I do think is to low.

Nope, it's exactly spot on.



The lightest 'Nordid' group according to Debetz had:

Debetz data was from the 20s, and ironically that lightest 'Nordid' group actually turned out to be one of the very darkest Russian territorial groups after the data and materials of the Russian Anthropological Expedition of 1959, which had a sample size of 17,000 men and women and analyzed Russians from 108 localities were gathered. There is, for instance, the Don-Sursk type, another light, mesocephalic mesoprosopic, leptorhine population, which Coon will, without a doubt have described as "essentially Nordid" if he had access to the data: in comparison with Debetz Eastern Great Russian type the Don-Sursk group has 50% pure light eyes, 5% dark eyes, and 29% light hair (Fischer #8-29). The Illmen type, which is also morphologically and skeletally practically indistinguishable from the Eastern Great Russian complex has 59% pure light eyes, 0.9% dark eyes, and 23.2% hair colors Fischer #9-26 (i.e. Illmen Russians are blonder than Finnish Swedes).


However according to Coon Bunak is the best on Russian data: To readers unacquainted with Russian, Bunak's work is perhaps the most useful single source on the physicial anthropology of modern Russia.

Right, and in 1959 Bunak released the conclusions of the Russian Anthropological Expedition of 1959 (sample size ~17,000, 108 investigated localities), which showed that Russians in general were much lighter, much more mesocephalic, leptoprosopic and leptorhine, and much less influenced by 'Ladogan' types than Coon's limited data allowed him to extrapolate.

[Sventovit]

Zyklop will kill you :tongue:D

For what - stating the honest conclusion of any honest comparison between the anthropological data on the pigmentation of Russians and Germans? In fact, the conclusion would have to be slightly redacted in order to be perfectly honest: Great Russians are, as a population, and especially in certain areas, much lighter than Germans.

[Hussar]

For what - stating the honest conclusion of any honest comparison between the anthropological data on the pigmentation of Russians and Germans? In fact, the conclusion would have to be slightly redacted in order to be perfectly honest: Great Russians are, as a population, and especially in certain areas, much lighter than Germans.


To be totally sincere, i still have doubts on these data (maybe i'll discuss them on a specific thread. I'm interested in slavic populations).


But it's paradoxical the racial crusade of Theird Reich against a population (great russians) even more northeuropid than germans....:eek:

[Sventovit]

It should be noted that the role of anti-Russian propaganda, seeking to paint Russians off as savage and Asiatic, in shaping Western preconception of what Russians do (or even should) look like, simply cannot be overstated. Compare Russian soldiers (virtually all ethnic Russians)n of the early XX century:

http://www.ljplus.ru/img/l/e/lesnoy/1914-god.jpg

or even today:

http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/Nicola_Canadian/RUSOLD/vdv2.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/Nicola_Canadian/RUSOLD/VirtExpo-06-38.jpg
http://i75.photobucket.com/albums/i308/Nicola_Canadian/RUSOLD/vdv11.jpg

To this German propaganda:

http://novomundo3.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/der-untermensch.jpg

When the average Westerner thinks of what a Russian must look like, due to over 75 years of carefully cultivated stereotyped depiction in films and other media, something much closer to "Der Untermenschen" than to reality comes to his mind.

[The Black Prince]

Coon's data is outdated and used small sample sizes. See below:



Nope, it's exactly spot on.




Debetz data was from the 20s, and ironically that lightest 'Nordid' group actually turned out to be one of the very darkest Russian territorial groups after the data and materials of the Russian Anthropological Expedition of 1959, which had a sample size of 17,000 men and women and analyzed Russians from 108 localities were gathered. There is, for instance, the Don-Sursk type, another light, mesocephalic mesoprosopic, leptorhine population, which Coon will, without a doubt have described as "essentially Nordid" if he had access to the data: in comparison with Debetz Eastern Great Russian type the Don-Sursk group has 50% pure light eyes, 5% dark eyes, and 29% light hair (Fischer #8-29). The Illmen type, which is also morphologically and skeletally practically indistinguishable from the Eastern Great Russian complex has 59% pure light eyes, 0.9% dark eyes, and 23.2% hair colors Fischer #9-26 (i.e. Illmen Russians are blonder than Finnish Swedes).



Right, and in 1959 Bunak released the conclusions of the Russian Anthropological Expedition of 1959 (sample size ~17,000, 108 investigated localities), which showed that Russians in general were much lighter, much more mesocephalic, leptoprosopic and leptorhine, and much less influenced by 'Ladogan' types than Coon's limited data allowed him to extrapolate.

If I were you, and wanted to bring the public some new data, I would translate the 1959 Bunak release. Similar as was previously done with TROE and Lundman. The reason people only bring up data from these books is because they are readable in English and freely available for a broad public on the Internet.
It would be a lot of work, and I don't want to commit you. But the result would be that when it is available, within a year the anthropology fora on the whole internet would adapt to it as people would be using the Russian data.:)

I have read the works of Von Eickstedt, Angel, Hooton, some Dutch physical anthropologists and some I forgot..:D However I will never buy some Russian anthropological work on E-bay, cause I can't read Russian.;)

(Well I might buy some of those books some day, because I just like those old books..:))

[Sventovit]

To be totally sincere, i still have doubts on these data (maybe i'll discuss them on a specific thread. I'm interested in slavic populations).

Modern Russia is a mixed society, and the Soviet period with its rampant and societally sanctioned miscegenation between Slavs and various Uralic and Turkic peoples has certainly not left the reality "on the street" unchanged (even so, North Europids are still dominant in Russia). There are millions of people in Russia who have mixed racial ancestry in the past two generations. This is a fact, and cannot be denied. Some may argue that because Russian anthropologists do not include (except in certain specific circumstances, such as studies concerning the effect of racial admixture) into the 'Great Russian' fold. The sheer fact of the matter is that these people are simply not ethnic Russians, no matter how much they may want to be and no matter how much others may want them to be. Nobody complains when Luzatian Sorbs and Turkish immigrants or the offspring of mixed marriages between these ethnics and Germans, are not included into German anthropological surveys, because those groups are not ethnic Germans. Likewise, there is nothing strange or unfair about excluding patently mixed types (first two generations) from anthropological data on a given ethnic group.

Having mentioned all that, it bears repeating that while the population of the Russian Federation, as a whole, is much more mixed and mobile than it was, say, even 75 years ago, ethnic Russians of various North Europid subtypes are still the dominant group in most places.


But it'si paradoxical the racial crusade of Theird Reich against a population (great russians) even more northeuropid than germans....:eek:

There is nothing paradoxical about it, IMHO. The idea that Hitler was a Nordicist of some sort is a myth - in fact, he privately ridiculed Heinrich Himmler's obsession with Nordic racial purity (which was rather ridiculous in itself, but that's neither here nor there) and the Lebensborn programme. Hitler also summarily rejected the anthropological theories of Nordicist Hans F. K. Guenther, when he realized, almost certainly to his chagrin, that, unlike his own very arbitrary "Aryan" label, it was simply impossible to include all, or even most Germans, into the Nordic taxon. Hitler was a pan-Germanist German imperialist/chauvinist, plain and simple, who co-opted the Nordicist tradition of NW Europe to the circumstances in Germany when it suited him and discarded it when it outlived its usefulness. I am willing to bet that given the choice to kill 1,000 blond mesocephalic North Europid Russian peasants, and a random ethnic German murderer from some Bavarian prison, Hitler would pull the plug on the peasants (his soldiers certainly did not hesitate to exterminate hundreds of thousands if not outright millions of North Europid Slavs in Russia and Belarus). The renowned American Nordicist thinker Lothrop Stoddard noticed even in the early 20th century this cynical tendency of pan-Germanists/German imperialists to use Nordicist rhetoric for their own political ends:



...
Indeed, the national-imperialists presently seized upon race teachings, and prostituted them to their own ends. A notable example of this is the extreme Pan-German propaganda of Houston Stewart Chamberlain (Especially as expounded in Chamberlain's chief work, "Die Grundlagen des neunzehnten Jahrhunderts" ("The Foundations of the Nineteenth Century").) and his fellows. Chamberlain makes two cardinal assumptions: he conceives modern Germany as racially almost purely Nordic; and he regards all Nordics outside the German linguistic-cultural group as either unconscious or renegade Teutons who must at all costs be brought into the German fold. To any one who understands the scientific realities of race, the monstrous absurdity of these assumptions is instantly apparent. The fact is that modern Germany, far from being purely Nordic, is mainly Alpine in race. Nordic blood preponderates only in the northwest, and is merely veneered over the rest of Germany, especially in the upper classes. While the Germania of Roman days was unquestionably a Nordic land, it has been computed that of the 70,000,000 inhabitants of the German Empire in 1914, only 9,000,000 were purely Nordic in character. This displacement of the German Nordics since classic times is chiefly due to Germany's troubled history, especially to the horrible Thirty Years' War which virtually annihilated the Nordics of south Germany. This racial displacement has wrought correspondingly profound changes in the character of the German people.

The truth of the matter is, of course, that the Pan-Germans were thinking in terms of nationality instead of race, and that they were using pseudo-racial arguments as camouflage for essentially political ends. The pity of it is that these arguments have had such disastrous repercussions in the genuine racial sphere. The late war has not only exploded Pan-Germanism, it has also discredited Nordic race-feeling, so unjustly confused by many persons with Pan-German nationalistic propaganda. Such persons should remember that the overwhelming majority of Nordics live outside of Germany, being mainly found in Scandinavia, the Anglo-Saxon countries, northern France, the Netherlands, and Baltic Russia. To let Teuton propaganda gull us into thinking of Germany as the Nordic fatherland is both a danger and an absurdity.

While Pan-Germanism was mainly responsible for precipitating Armageddon with all its disastrous consequences, it was Russian Pan-Slavism which dealt the first shrewd blow to white solidarity. Toward the close of the nineteenth century, Pan-Slavism's "Eastern" wing led by Prince Ukhtomsky and other chauvinists of his ilk, went so far in its imperialistic obsession as actually to deny Russia's white blood. These Pan-Slavists boldly proclaimed the morbid, mystical dogma that Russia was Asiatic, not European, and thereupon attempted to seize China as a lever for upsetting, first the rest of Asia, and then the non-Russian white world - elegantly described as "the rotten west." The white Power immediately menaced was, of course, England, who in acute fear for her Indian Empire, promptly riposted by allying herself with Japan. Russia was diplomatically isolated and militarily beaten in the Russo-Japanese War. Thus the Russo-Japanese War, that destroyer of white prestige whose ominous results we have already noted, was precipitated mainly by the reckless short-sightedness of white men themselves.
...

Lothrop Stoddard, The Rising Tide of Color Against White World Supremacy, Chapter IX - The Shattering of White Solidarity (http://www.churchoftrueisrael.com/stoddard/rtc_2-09.html)

[RoyBatty]

Her eye color is quite dark; her natural hair color is most likely much darker too. Not sure if this is her natural hair color:

http://www.astrologyweekly.com/natal-charts/images/yulia-tymoshenko.php.jpg



Some years her daughter got married to a Brit Muso (not from a famous group). Notice the dark hair.

http://blog.kievukraine.info/uploaded_images/2559-738316.jpg

[RoyBatty]

Yes in Russia.

Or perhaps I spent the last few years working there with my eyes closed? :rolleyes2:

Do you just say what you do from a dislike of Khokhly? Like it or not, there are plenty down there, even in the far west, that wouldn't look out of place in Arkhangelsk or Yaroslavl.

It's been pointed out already but Yulia is about as "Ukrainian" as a Paki, Hors had a point lol :D

[manu]

Sventovit your soldiers look predominantly baltid to me, just like anyone (or me at least) expects Russian to look like and close to Tymoshenko.

[Osweo]

Yulia Timoshenko, nee Grigyan, is an ethnic Armenian - in other words, she and her ilk have precisely the same relationship to Russia and Russians as the Pakis in the picture Hors posted do to Britan and the British.
It seems I was too naive to expect a politician to be fully autochthonous. Such times we live in... :(
But you do exaggerate. Wiki implies she's half Armenian:

Tymoshenko is the daughter of Ludmila Nikolaevna Telegina and Vladimir Abramovich Grigean
But maybe this Vladimir's mother was Slavonic? Yuliya could be only a quarter Armenian. To be honest, I'm surprised to hear of this Caucasian connection. She looks very like an old woman I know from that bit of Ukraine south of Bryansk. The Telegin ('Carter'!) genes seem to have won the day. Now, with hindsight, the set of her eyes reminds me a little of an old Armenian studentka I had once, but I wouldn't have noticed it before you told me. Can you demonstrate the Caucasian in her, metrically?

By the way, 'Grigyan' isn't Armenian for 'Greek-son' is it? We could have something even more complicated here! :p

While it may be true that most of these people consider themselves every bit as Russian as someone whose had only Great Russians in his genealogy for the past four generations, and that they speak Russian as well as any bona fide Great Russian, they can no more in good conscience be called 'ethnic Russians' than some half-Paki half-English hybrid waving a Union Jack around on holidays
Russians have lived beside Chuvash and Volga Finns for centuries, and mixed with them since they first met. It's more like English mixing with Irish or Welsh than with Indians. Pakis sailed here forty years ago from the other side of the world. Equating the two is pretty disgusting, really, and hardly speaks for your objective attitude towards your own people's history.


By the way, she was very nice in her youth, and her she is as Yu. Grigyan:
http://compromat.ru/imgup/converted_26599.jpg:naughty:;)

But OH GODS, the more you look into Yuliya on the net, the more shit you find!!! :eek::(:p
http://forum.for-ua.com/read.php?1,111555

К расследованию меня побудила сама Юлия Тимошенко, которая заявила, что у нее по отцовской линии все латыши до десятого колена, а по материнской линии только украинцы. Но, когда я начал искать данные о предках Юлии Владимировны, то отыскал документы, которые показывают ее вранье", - заявляет Чобит.

По данным, которые приводит Чобит, предки Юлии Тимошенко самостоятельно изменили фамилию на Григян, а настоящая родовая фамилия у нее Капительман. Деда Тимошенко звали Абрам Кельманович Капительман. :rofl:
In short, she herself is said to insist that her dad's family were Latvians for at least ten generations, and her mam's only Ukrainians. Some 'investigator' says that her dad's dad was called Abram Kelmanovich Kapitelmann... Could it get better? :rofl:

Other 'sources' say her mam is Jewish too. ;)

Politically, she's a puppet of US interests, and so lots of rumours are naturally spread about her to discredit her movement. I doubt we'll ever know the 'truth'.

So let's just look at her physically. Is there anything Taurid, Armenid or whatever there? If so, what?

[Osweo]

By the way, those Nazis were crackers.
http://novomundo3.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/der-untermensch.jpg
The people in the background are pretty ugly (the 'artist' probably distorted them a bit - an easy trick), but the main bloke looks like a decent Englishman you might meet down the pub for a pint. :p

[The Black Prince]

Is there anything Taurid, Armenid or whatever there? If so, what?

The Taurid influence?

Low forehead and in line with nasal shape. I used Taurid because well.. Dinarid is a bit out of the direction. But such an agent is the origin for those pretty straight forehead-nasal line.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/1009/csmimg/OTYMO_P3.jpg

For the rest Alpinid.

[W. R.]

No i know how many Russian look like ---- they are flooding my country, make our lifes miserable and treat the Latvian or Estonian population like shit!! :mad: And many Russians look like Untermenschen in Latvia, they are mongrels and darker than our Baltic people! I ask what do you try here?? Yes there are normal European Russian people but many Russians in the Baltic countrys are look like the dirt on the Nazi poster you get it?? And dont try to lie to me i could see your "Super Light Russian Europeans " with my own eyes for many years and had more negative experiences with them i ever needed!! Go ask Karl or Ewtt if you dont believe me!! I want that your horde leaves our country forever

You know, if Russia is so super great all Russians should live in it!!Were I a troll my very first thought after reading this would be "FOOOOD!!!"

More cold blood, Nordic Fräulein, please. Nice to meet you again on the Apricity. :)

[RoyBatty]

Politically, she's a puppet of US interests, and so lots of rumours are naturally spread about her to discredit her movement. I doubt we'll ever know the 'truth'.


Not sure if she's exactly a US puppet although Yuschenko certainly is. Yulia tends to errr... put Yulia's interests first. Imo she's not as fervently anti-Russian as Yuschenko.

[National_Nord]

I think that the Mediterranean race...

[Loki]

I think that the Mediterranean race...

Tymoshenko Mediterranean?

[kwp_wp]

I think that the Mediterranean race...

You mean Pontid?
btw what's the difference between Pontid and Med?

[National_Nord]

Tymoshenko Mediterranean?
Yes.

Almost a classic example of Mediterranean race. In the alpine race skull broader, and his jaw looks neskolsko heavier when compared with the Mediterranean race.

[National_Nord]

You mean Pontid?
btw what's the difference between Pontid and Med?

Pontid some physical anthropologists to refer to the Mediterranean race. Pontid - a type of eastern Mediterranean race.Currently, net Pontid do not occur.

[Cail]

Almost a classic example of Mediterranean race. In the alpine race skull broader, and his jaw looks neskolsko heavier when compared with the Mediterranean race.

Stop using auto-translators, are you too lazy to write in English yourself :D?

[Absinthe]

Yes.

Almost a classic example of Mediterranean race.

:twitch:

This is a classic example of the Mediterranean race:

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/5417/adam8mi.jpg

And this is Tymoshenko:

http://blog.kievukraine.info/uploaded_images/3912-797277.jpg

Need I even start pointing out the differences? :chin:

[kwp_wp]

Need I even start pointing out the differences? :chin:

to start pointing Julia shouldn't have smiled;)

[National_Nord]

:twitch:

This is a classic example of the Mediterranean race:

http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/5417/adam8mi.jpg

And this is Tymoshenko:

http://blog.kievukraine.info/uploaded_images/3912-797277.jpg

Need I even start pointing out the differences? :chin:


Please compare with a photograph, which Tymoshenko has a natural hair color.

[Sally]

:

And this is Tymoshenko:

http://blog.kievukraine.info/uploaded_images/3912-797277.jpg


Tymoshenko needs to touch up her roots...badly! ;)

Cattiness aside, she reminds of Evita Peron, at least in terms of grooming.

http://i45.tinypic.com/v75yt5.jpg

[Cail]

Dark hair, no makeup (2nd pic)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/cesaresc/YuliaTimoshenko-300.jpg
http://ua.pravda.com.ua/files/7/_Picture_file_path_7038.jpg

[Cato]

MILF.

[National_Nord]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/cesaresc/YuliaTimoshenko-300.jpg

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/9632/mdmalta.png (http://img256.imageshack.us/i/mdmalta.png/)

Very similar, is not it?

[Absinthe]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/cesaresc/YuliaTimoshenko-300.jpg

http://img256.imageshack.us/img256/9632/mdmalta.png (http://img256.imageshack.us/i/mdmalta.png/)

Very similar, is not it?
Not at all actually.

Taking two blurry pictures, it might look so at first.

But if you look close enough, in the second woman:
the lips are fuller, the nose is longer, the face is longer and more narrow, the forehead is shorter, the eyes are bigger, the jaw is oval-shaped (as opposed to the rounder shape of Tymoshenko's jaw).

So in the end, asides from the dark hair, these women look alike as much as I do with the Pope. :wink

[esaima]

And many Russians are ... darker than our Baltic people
Yes, of course many Russians are significantly darker than Estonians or Latvians.
Btw, I don´t always agree with Karl.

[The Black Prince]

@Sventovit

I got the impression that you only call Russians Russian when they have no Siberid or Mongolid admixture. In that case, to make a statement that Russians are in absence of obvious Mongoloid admixture is quite easy.;)

[Psychonaut]

Mod Note: Sventovit and Inese, take your Russia vs. Latvia rivalry elsewhere. The Anthropology sub-fora are not the proper venue for trash talking another nation, however deserved you believe it to be. If you, or your country, is insulted, please behave like an adult and don't sink to the level of s/he who threw the first insult.

If you want to have a knock down, drag out fight, take it here (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/group.php?groupid=60), otherwise, restrict your comments (in this section) to those relating to Anthropology.

[Loki]

Thread cleaned up again, from the point where some nations were called "untermenschen". Enough of this shit. :mad:

[tEhSaint]

Pontid with reduced-Baltid/Gorid admixture.

[aherne]

Alpine-Baltid mix, despite her Armenian surname. Looks Russian, but can be Romanian, too...

[Roy]

Gorid.