(Split) post-WW2 Sweden and Finland

[Eldritch]

Spending the duration of the Cold War pacifying Moscow isn't exactly my idea of a noble policy, but then if anything Finland was even worse in that regard.

I'm actually very surprised that you consider "nobility" as preferred guiding light to one's actions. I'm also curious as to what the noble thing to do would have been?

[Joe McCarthy]

I'm actually very surprised that you consider "nobility" as preferred guiding light to one's actions. I'm also curious as to what the noble thing to do would have been?

It's obvious: Sweden and Finland should have joined NATO. The USSR would not have dared attack either.

[Eldritch]

It's obvious: Sweden and Finland should have joined NATO.

Why?

[Joe McCarthy]

Why?

The other option is what Finland did: it signed an agreement little different than Warsaw Pact nations. I'm assuming you're familiar with the agreement Finland signed with the USSR in 1948, and far worse, never annulled even long after NATO came into being.

[Eldritch]

The other option is what Finland did: it signed an agreement little different than Warsaw Pact nations. I'm assuming you're familiar with the agreement Finland signed with the USSR in 1948, and far worse, never annulled even long after NATO came into being.

Yes, and?

And what about Sweden?

[Joe McCarthy]

Yes, and?

And what about Sweden?

Well, Finland's option was to join NATO or be the USSR's satellite essentially. You tell me which was preferable.

As for Sweden, they never signed an agreement. They just refused to join NATO because they feared the USSR. Alas, recent Swedish history has been characterized by weakness - on both the domestic front and on the international front. First they caved to Hitler. Then they caved to the Soviets. Now they're caving to the Third World.

The Swedes are a beautiful people, but nature makes no allowance for weakness.

[Eldritch]

Well, Finland's option was to join NATO or be the USSR's satellite essentially. You tell me which was preferable.


No, you tell me why it was not "noble" not to join NATO.

[Joe McCarthy]

No, you tell me why it was not "noble" not to join NATO.

Finland could have joined the alliance against international Communism. Instead it opted to become the USSR's satellite, and remain as such.

[The Ripper]

Finland could have joined the alliance against international Communism. Instead it opted to become the USSR's satellite, and remain as such.

Yes, we had a simple choice: be an independent democracy or become a "Soviet satellite". We didn't even have to think twice, after sacrificing nearly 100 000 lives in the fight to preserve ourselves in the face of Soviet communism. We obviously wanted to kiss Moscow's ass.

Ignorant, arrogant, moronic.

[Eldritch]

Finland could have joined the alliance against international Communism. Instead it opted to become the USSR's satellite, and remain as such.

So basically the noble thing to do would have been helping the US advance its own interests, instead of remaining militarily neutral.

[Eldritch]

Ignorant, arrogant, moronic.

Neocon duckspeak is what it is.

[Joe McCarthy]

Here is a link detailing the terms of the Finnish-Soviet agreement of 1948. I'll let it speak for itself:

http://countrystudies.us/finland/24.htm

[Äike]

So basically the noble thing to do would have been helping the US advance its own interests, instead of remaining militarily neutral.

Neutral? Publishing anything critical about communism/the USSR was forbidden in the Finnish media. Practically saying, Finland didn't do anything which the USSR wouldn't have liked.

Giving out Estonians, who later died in Russian gulags, who fought in the Finnish army against the Bolshevik hordes, wasn't an obstacle either.

[Joe McCarthy]

So basically the noble thing to do would have been helping the US advance its own interests, instead of remaining militarily neutral.

Finland didn't remain militarily neutral. Read the link.

[Eldritch]

Here is a link detailing the terms of the Finnish-Soviet agreement of 1948. I'll let it speak for itself:

http://countrystudies.us/finland/24.htm

Is that because you're unable to make your point in your own words?

[Eldritch]

Finland didn't remain militarily neutral. Read the link.

Would it kill you to give a straight answer to a question even once?

[The Ripper]

How many Warsaw Pact members bought 1/3 of their weapons from the west, 1/3 of their weapons from the Soviets and 1/3 from non-aligned countries?

[Joe McCarthy]

How many Warsaw Pact members bought 1/3 of their weapons from the west, 1/3 of their weapons from the Soviets and 1/3 from non-aligned countries?

The Finnish agreement wasn't quite as bad as the Warsaw Pact, but it was close. A few things can be said in its defense, but in my view the defense ultimately falls flat. History is never kind to appeasers of tyrants. You probably already know that.

[The Ripper]

The Finnish agreement wasn't quite as bad as the Warsaw Pact, but it was close. A few things can be said in its defense, but in my view the defense ultimately falls flat. History is never kind to appeasers of tyrants. You probably already know that.

Trolololol. Tell me, how many Americans died fighting the Soviets? Then tell me who presided over Yalta? Mighty Finland should have just have given those commies the finger! AMERICA FUCK YEAH.

[Eldritch]

Um, the NATO didn't even exist at the time the YYA treaty was signed, btw.

[Joe McCarthy]

Um, the NATO didn't even exist at the time the YYA treaty was signed, btw.

Yes, which I alluded to earlier. That is one of the defenses I also alluded to. It was signed though during heavy Soviet-American tension. I'd need to double check the dates but I know it was around the time of the Berlin Airlift and start of the Cold War. In other words, Finland could have reneged later, or even not signed it at all given that the USSR and US were already at loggerheads.

[Joe McCarthy]

Okay, the Berlin Airlft began about two months after the treaty was signed. That strengthens the Finnish position. But the Cold War started in 1947.

[The Ripper]

Okay, the Berlin Airlft began about two months after the treaty was signed. That strengthens the Finnish position. But the Cold War started in 1947.

In 1947 the Paris Peace Treaty, dictated by the allies, was signed, which declares that Finland cannot become part of any alliance directed against the USSR.

[Eldritch]

In other words, Finland could have reneged later, or even not signed it at all given that the USSR and US were already at loggerheads.

And why on Earth would we have wanted to do that? For the privilege of doing the "noble" thing and joining NATO an international alliance against Communism?

If it's opposing Communism that you want, I doubt that we could have done much better given the circumstances. Like Riip already pointed out, not terribly many Americans died fighting the Soviets in WW2.


Okay, the Berlin Airlft began about two months after the treaty was signed. That strengthens the Finnish position.

There's no position here. We aren't answerable to you.

[Joe McCarthy]

There's no position here. We aren't answerable to you.

You take all of this stuff very personally, don't you? If I responded to all of the ignorant anti-American bullshit around here with half as much hostility as you respond to even moderate criticism of Europe or Finland, I'd be engaged in non-stop flame wars.

[Joe McCarthy]

In 1947 the Paris Peace Treaty, dictated by the allies, was signed, which declares that Finland cannot become part of any alliance directed against the USSR.

Do you have a link on that provision signifying Finland couldn't join an anti-Soviet alliance? I've looked at three links and haven't seen it.

[The Ripper]

Do you have a link on that provision signifying Finland couldn't join an anti-Soviet alliance? I've looked at three links and haven't seen it.

Hmm. May be I got it mixed up with the YYA.

[Eldritch]

You take all of this stuff very personally, don't you? If I responded to all of the ignorant anti-American bullshit around here with half as much hostility as you respond to even moderate criticism of Europe or Finland, I'd be engaged in non-stop flame wars.

Then go deal with the anti-American bullshit in whatever way you find appropriate. As long as you stop running your mouth and then suddenly start talking in circles when asked for elaboration/application.

This forum has many established and well-respected American members (including staff members), and anti-American sentiment has never been a major problem here. Until you came along, that is.