Subdivisions of Polish people

[Peterski]

Among ethnic Poles, we can distinguish at least the following major ethnographic groups:

1) Greater Poles (western Poles, Wielkopolanie, Polans),
2) Cuiavians (Kujawiacy),
3) Pomeranians,
4) Central Poles (historical Sieradz Land & Łęczyca Land),
5) Silesians,
6) Lesser Poles (southern Poles, Małopolanie, Vistulans),
7) Mazurs (Mazovians),
8) Kresowiaks (North-Eastern & South-Eastern Poles)

1) Greater Poles (Wielkopolanie, "Poles proper") inhabit more or less the original territory of the tribe of Polans (from which the names Poland and Poles are derived), as well as other areas where Greater Polish settlers and their dialect expanded throughout history. Greater Poland is the oldest part of Poland and this is where the Polish statehood emerged during the 9th and 10th centuries. Poznań is the main city of this region. We can distinguish smaller ethnographic subdivisions among Greater Poles. For example Pałuki, Biskupianie, Bambrzy (descended from Polonized German settlers from the area of Bamberg), Kaliszans, and others. In the territory of Greater Poland, there live also two Silesian-speaking ethnographic groups - Leśniaks, who live in the area of Rawicz, and Chwalimiaks, who live around Chwalim, Nowe Kramsko and Stare Kramsko. Some researchers include also 2) Cuiavians as a sub-division of Greater Poles. They inhabit areas from Lake Gopło in the south to Noteć River in the north-west and to Vistula River in the north-east. Descended from Cuiavian and Greater Polish settlers, are Kociewiaks, who live in the region of Kociewie in Eastern Pomerania, located between Starogard Pomorski, Tczew, Gniew, Świecie and to the outskirts of Gdańsk in the north. Groups intermediate between Greater Poles and Mazurs (but closer to Greater Poles), are Chełmniaks and Dobrzyniaks (who live in the lands of Chełmno and Dobrzyń), as well as Lubawiaks (in the land of Lubawa). Another intermediate group, but closer to Mazurs, are Catholic Warmiaks in the East Prussian region of Warmia (Ermland).

3) Pomeranians used to inhabit the entire land located to the north of Polans, between the swamps of Noteć River and the Baltic Sea. In the west, Pomeranians extended perhaps as far as the Rügen Island. In the east, they extended as far as the Vistula Lagoon, and their eastern neighbours were Baltic-speaking Prussians. Lipa (today Krynica Morska) was the easternmost Slavic-speaking village on the Baltic coast, but the area of Truso (today Elbląg) to the south of the Lagoon, was ethnically Old Prussian. Most of Pomeranians became Germanized throughout history. Only Eastern Pomeranians preserved their Slavic ethnicity, and are commonly known as Kashubians today. Kashubians who were under Polish rule during the 16th-18th centuries remained Catholic, while Kashubians who lived in Brandenburg-Prussia during the 18th century, were Lutherans. Kashubians could be divided into many smaller folk sub-dvisisions, such Kabatkowie, Karwatkowie, Pomarenkowie, Niniakowie, Beloki, Rybaki, Łyczaki, Lesoki, Korczaki, Zaboraki, Słowińcy (Slovincians), etc. From the Early Middle Ages, Pomerania was under strong Greater Polish and Cuiavian influences, which led to the emergence of several intermediary groups. From the mixture of Kashubians and Greater Poles, emerged an ethnographic group called Borowiaks, who live in the Tuchola Forests, between Tuchola, Koronowo, Świecie and Starogard. Borowiaks are intermediary, whereas another mixed group - Krajniaks - have a mostly Greater Polish character, with relatively minor Kashubian influences. They live in the region of Krajna.

The main city in the region has always been Gdańsk (Danzig), but it is not considered as part of ethnographic Kashubia because it was never Kashubian-dominated, but was either multicultural, German, or Polish throughout its history. Gdańsk is also located on the borderland between three ethnographic regions: Kashubia to the west, Kociewie to the south, Prussia to the east.

4) Central Poles (Łęczyczans and Sieradzans). Łęczyczans live between Greater Poland and Mazovia, and are an intermediate group, originally closer to Greater Poles but with significant Mazur influences. Sieradzans on the other hand, are surrounded by Greater Poland, Lesser Poland and Silesia, and are under strong influence of all three regions. They lost much of their original distinctness. The main city in this region is Łódź, but it originated during the Industrial Revolution, historically it was not an important settlement.

5) Silesians. In the Early Middle Ages, Silesia was inhabited by several Slavic tribes. The most numerous tribe (which ultimately gave its name to the region) were the Slenzans, who lived around Wrocław. They probably numbered 60-75,000 people. The Opolans lived around Opole, their population was perhaps 30-40,000. The Dyadosans lived near Głogów, probably 30,000 people. The Golensizians dwelled near Racibórz, Cieszyn and Opawa. The Lupiglaa probably lived on the Głubczyce Plateau. The Tryebovians occupied areas near Legnica and could number some 25-30,000 individuals. The Poborans lived along the lower and middle course of the Bóbr River. The Psyovians lived near Pszów, to the east of the Opolans and to the west of Cracow. As of year 1000 AD, the total population of Silesia is estimated as around 250,000 people. Following the German Ostsiedlung of the 13th century, the population of Silesia increased to around 510,000 in year 1350 AD (150,000 in Upper Silesia and 360,000 in Lower Silesia), of whom up to 150,000 were Germans. Germans settled mostly in western and northern parts of Lower Silesia. Upper Silesia was less affected by the Ostsiedlung. During the following centuries cultural Germanization gradually shifted the ethnic structure of Silesia, so that by the 20th century nearly all of Lower Silesia had a German-speaking majority. But Upper Silesia remained majority Polish-speaking. There were also Czech-speaking communities. Upper Silesians can be divided into a dozen or so smaller sub-divisions. But the most pronounced difference is between Cieszyn Silesia and the rest of Upper Silesia. This difference emerged due to political border which divided Upper Silesia between Prussia and Austria in the 1740s. Among smaller ethnographic groups which live in Cieszyn Silesia, we can distinguish Silesian Gorals (Silesian Highlanders).

6) Lesser Poles (Małopolanie). Southern Poles. They can be divided into several major sub-groups - Krakowiaks (in the region of Cracow), Gorals (Polish Highlanders), Sandomirians, Lubliniaks and inhabitants of Podkarpacie (Subcarpathia). Krakowiaks live to the north of Gorals, to the east of Silesians, to the west of Sandomirians, in the north they extend as far as Częstochowa and Kielce. This Cracow group can be further subdivided into smaller ethnographic regions. Among Lesser Poles, especially strongly differentiated are the Gorals, who can be further divided into Beskid Gorals, Podhalans, Kliszczaks, Lachy Sądeckie, and several smaller groups. In the east, Lesser Polish Gorals have Ruthenian-speaking Gorals as their neighbours. There is a lot of overlap with Slovak-speaking Gorals in the south. Sandomirians extend in the north as far as Skaryszew and Iłża, in the west beyond Chęciny. Lubliniaks live to the east of Sandomirians in the areas around Lublin, Chełm, Zamość, Tomaszów, Janów and Biłgoraj. To the south of them live Rzeszowiaks, in Podkarpacie (Subcarpathia).

7) Mazurs (Mazovians). They consist of proper Mazurs, known also as Central Mazurs, who live between Sierpc and Płock up to the lower Wieprz River. Between Central Mazurs and Podlasie is the homeland of Eastern Mazurs, and in southern parts of East Prussia - the homeland of Lutheran, Prussian Mazurs, descended from Central Mazurs who settled there in the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries, and assimilated remnants of West Baltic-speaking Old Prussian population. Another Medieval expansion of Mazurs, to the east, into former Yotvingian (ethnically West Baltic) territories, led to the emergence of Sudovian Poles and of Podlasie Mazurs (in the areas around Węgrów, Siedlce, Puławy, Łuków, Sokołów, Włodawa, as far as the Biebrza River). Another group descended from a mix of Poles (mostly Mazurs) and West Balts are the Kurpie, who live in Puszcza Zielona and Puszcza Biała (Green Forest and White Forest). Yet another sub-division of Mazurs, which developed a very rich folk culture thanks to having special privileges and prosperity, are Łowiczans (around Łowicz).

The capital of Poland, Warsaw, is located in the land of Central Mazurs. However, as any large city it has always been a melting pot of people from all regions of Poland and from abroad. In the Early Middle Ages, Płock was a more important city.

8) Kresowiaks. From the 14th century onwards, the expansion of Polish (mostly Mazur, but also Greater Polish and other) settlers towards the north-east, as well as cultural Polonization of local inhabitants, led to the emergence of Wilniuks (North-Eastern Poles) in the Land of Wilno (Wileńszczyzna), which encompasses the borderlands of Belarus, Lithuania and Southern Latvia (Polish Livonia). At the same time, the expansion of Polish settlers (mostly Lesser Poles) towards the south-east, as well as cultural Polonization of local inhabitants, led to the emergence of South-Eastern Poles in Red Ruthenia (with its main cultural centre - Lwów, Lviv), Volhynia and Podolia.

[Peterski]

^^^ Compared to regional reference populations in K36 Oracle:

http://i.imgur.com/8wMTpsr.png

[Karol Klačansky]

very interesting. Two weekends I was in nowy targ and zakopane. I stayed with an american polish girl and her grandma who is goral. I also met her goral cousin, he seemed quite proud to tell me how close slovaks and gorals are. It felt really similar to slovakia but people had a more polish look. It was an interesting experience. Id like to check out more of poland and see the land which shares my y haplogroup the most from any nation.

[Peterski]

Folk costumes (but Kociewie should be to the north-east rather than south-east of Bory):

http://68.media.tumblr.com/5ee008a0b178d502695477cd077305b5/tumblr_osh16oekSg1tj42feo1_1280.jpg

http://68.media.tumblr.com/5ee008a0b178d502695477cd077305b5/tumblr_osh16oekSg1tj42feo1_1280.jpg

Borowiaks live in (and around) Bory Tucholskie, to the west and south-west of Kociewie:

http://www.nasze.kujawsko-pomorskie.pl/images/stories/etnografia/regiony.png

http://kociewiacy.pl/main/images/stories/Image/2007/-0-0-KOCIAK_MIN.jpg


Two weekends I was in nowy targ and zakopane. I stayed with an american polish girl and her grandma who is goral. I also met her goral cousin, he seemed quite proud to tell me how close slovaks and gorals are. It felt really similar to slovakia but people had a more polish look. It was an interesting experience. Id like to check out more of poland and see the land which shares my y haplogroup the most from any nation.

Cool!

"Pure" Gorals are relatively rare today, they've mixed with others, especially as they migrate to big cities. There is a continuum from Polish Gorals to Slovak Gorals, rather than sharp ethnic divide.

[EuropeanVlachSon]

DId poles accept the idea that gorals have vlach ancestry? Or?
I found many similiarites between us and they.

[Peterski]

DId poles accept the idea that gorals have vlach ancestry? Or?
I found many similiarites between us and they.

They are a mix of Slavic, Vlach, German, and possibly some other groups. They are not pure Vlachs because in such case they would plot genetically with Balkan populations, and they don't.

But they are not so different than other (Non-Goral) South-Eastern Poles.

All of them have some Balkan or Balkan-like ancestry in DNA.Land:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?200770-Polish-autosomal-ancestry-genetic-test-results&p=4186941&viewfull=1#post4186941

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8273-Southern-Polish-results-from-DNA-Land&p=217727&viewfull=1#post217727

From Polishgenes blog:


Davidski said...
Poles who show elevated Mediterranean/Near Eastern admixture are those from the Carpathian foothills (where Balkan ancestry is evident) and also those with recent Jewish ancestry.

[Rethel]

http://68.media.tumblr.com/5ee008a0b178d502695477cd077305b5/tumblr_osh16oekSg1tj42feo1_1280.jpg


Luckily, I come, and I live in the places which have no regional costumes.
But when I was small, I thought opposite... But with the age comes wisdom :laugh:


http://www.nasze.kujawsko-pomorskie.pl/images/stories/etnografia/regiony.png


Have you bigger version?
Btw, it is interesting, how vary numeral german settlement did not infuence regional areas :laugh:


"Pure" Gorals are relatively rare today, they've mixed with others,

:picard2:


DId poles accept the idea that gorals have vlach ancestry? Or?
I found many similiarites between us and they.

There is much more Germans, than Vlachs - but some of course are Vlachs, few, but are.

[Karol Klačansky]

Cool!

"Pure" Gorals are relatively rare today, they've mixed with others, especially as they migrate to big cities. There is a continuum from Polish Gorals to Slovak Gorals, rather than sharp ethnic divide.

Do you have any pure goral gedmatch results? Can you share an example of goral dialect I'm curious to hear it or read it. Tried to search online but I couldn't find much, probably cuz I searched in English.


Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

[epirot]

If we exclude Romania, which is of course the home of Vlahs, and possibly Greece and Albania, the rest of Slavic Balkan countries have minimal Vlah influence. Even the Vlah/Music dances of the Vlah minority in eastern Serbia are 100% Slavic.

[ЛыSSый]

Let me confirm -i've noticed poles like to have from each other by this territorial factors.

But...
1) You've forgot to add poles from ex-ussr space
2) You've forgot to add poles are subdivisinion of russians, ofc, with 1000 years expiriece of separatism, eurodreams and butthurt, but neverless.

[Mikula]

Can you share an example of goral dialect I'm curious to hear it or read it. Tried to search online but I couldn't find much, probably cuz I searched in English.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFRDQDAQQNE

[Ülev]

Let me confirm -i've noticed poles like to have from each other by this territorial factors.

But...
1) You've forgot to add poles from ex-ussr space
2) You've forgot to add poles are subdivisinion of russians, ofc, with 1000 years expiriece of separatism, eurodreams and butthurt, but neverless.

:picard2:


watch what other Russians knows about "slavische heimat" and they are right

8:05 (or 8:30)



https://youtu.be/jPtgyb1ng40

[Rethel]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFRDQDAQQNE

There is many different goral dialects.
This what is usualy called by it, it is podhalanian dialect - also present on this video.

Here example (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Z6_KR4IhRQ) - but I never know, if such examples are a version for ceprs (non goral folk) becasue it is too understandable...
When some Gorals in live are speaking, sometimes it is hardly understandable.

[Peterski]

You've forgot to add poles from ex-ussr space

They are Kresowiaks too, just more eastern ones.

[ЛыSSый]

:picard2:


watch what other Russians knows about "slavische heimat" and they are right

8:05 (or 8:30)



https://youtu.be/jPtgyb1ng40

Oh, Vaasiliy (Coinneach now) has joined to Olgino and start to post Putin's propaganda here. Gratulacujem, little bro.

[Dandelion]

Greater Poles are the overseeers of Lesser Poles. :p

[Ülev]

Oh, Vaasiliy (Coinneach now) has joined to Olgino and start to post Putin's propaganda here. Gratulacujem, little bro.

but those Russians have said that "Slavic culture" started from Poles, Slavs from Rugia/Rugen Island, I can't do anything with fact that I know a little bit Russian language too


pssst, I work for Gabon SS (secret service) in fact

[Peterski]

Appearance of the Dobrzynskis, a Polish clan in Lithuania, which originated from Dobrzyń Land:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dobrzyń_Land

"The Dobrzynskis were distinguished among their Lithuanian brethren by their language and likewise by their stature and their appearance. They were of pure Polish blood, and all had black hair, high foreheads, dark eyes, and aquiline noses. From the land of Dobrzyn they derived their ancient family, and, though they had been settled in Lithuania for four hundred years, they preserved their Masovian speech and customs."

Source: Adam Mickiewicz, "Sir Thaddeus, or the Last Foray in Lithuania" (link):

https://archive.org/stream/pantadeuszorlast00mickuoft#page/166/mode/2up/search/Dobrzynskis

https://archive.org/stream/pantadeuszorlast00mickuoft/pantadeuszorlast00mickuoft_djvu.txt

People from Dobrzyń Land are a mix of Greater Polish and Masovian (= Mazur) influences:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?218770-Subdivisions-of-Polish-people


Groups intermediate between Greater Poles and Mazurs (but closer to Greater Poles), are Chełmniaks and Dobrzyniaks (who live in the lands of Chełmno and Dobrzyń), as well as Lubawiaks (in the land of Lubawa).

[Peterski]

Interesting thread:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?218837-Where-can-they-pass-main-types-ANSWER-REVEALED

[Böri]

Poles are people who are late converts to Christianity.
To understand this, just note that Frank people started to convert after the baptism of their king Clovis in 498 AD. With Poles it's 500 years later and more for some other people who are modern Poles' ancestors.
966 AD the 'South Poles, were officially Catholicized by royal wedding however the ancestors of North Poles (Slavic Wends) were Pagans. These people were forcibly Christianized after the Wendish Crusade of 1147 organized by Saxons. It's interesting a people converted by force are so religious, even more so than the converters, as of today.

[ЛыSSый]

but those Russians have said that "Slavic culture" started from Poles, Slavs from Rugia/Rugen Island, I can't do anything with fact that I know a little bit Russian language too


pssst, I work for Gabon SS (secret service) in fact

Little bro, don't be affraid, cause AW and ABW are also KGB subdivision. And even Macerewicz is the same KGB creature as Walensa was.
And poles is most powerful KGB weapon against rotten west. One polish worker is better than 10 muslim terrorists cause they may blow themselves just once and murder in best case scenario 50 people, but random lazy plumber Jacec makes hell from life at least 150 people during dozens of years. The same situation with cheap construction workers: while they're earning money and sending it to home, western goverments are paying millions euros to jobless aborigens and they're loosing qualification level. But if albos, for example (another KGB project from Stalin's times, at the beginning it was personal Stalin project) is well known evil, but poles is well known good, cause they're cheap qualificated workers. But while every 3 from them hornestly works and sometimes silently steal, the 4th one comes only for stealing ewerything what they can. Go on, little kins! So more poles will be in rotten west, so faster final drang nacht last sea will be completed.

[Rethel]

Appearance of the Dobrzynskis, a Polish clan in Lithuania,

Mazowian.
And rather family is better translation, not clan.

As you quoted in the translation, btw:
"they derived their ancient family"

[Peterski]

Mazowian.

Not Mazovian.

They were from Dobrzyń Land, which is genetically mixed but more Greater Polish than Mazovian.

They just happened to speak the Mazovian dialect of Polish after settling in Lithuania. Or maybe Mickiewicz simply called "Masovian" all of Polish-speaking families from Korona territories.

"They were of pure [Greater] Polish blood" - he wrote. Not Mazovian blood.


And rather family is better translation, not clan.

IIRC in Polish original the word used is ród, which is better translated as clan than family.

Family is rodzina, not ród. Ród is clan. And klan is just a borrowing from English.

[Rethel]

Not Mazovian.

You dare to question Mickiewicz? :)


They were from Dobrzyń Land,

Which is the core of ancient Mazowia.


which is genetically mixed but more Greater Polish than Mazovian.

:picard2:

Autosomalistic delusions from XXI century have nothing to do here, really. Wake up!
Especially, that autosomaly they were probably mostly - if not exclusivly - lithuanian.


Or maybe Mickiewicz simply called "Masovian" all of Polish-speaking families from Korona territories.

Sure...:bored:

[Peterski]

He wrote they were of pure Polish blood. So they couldn't be Mazovians. :)


Which is the core of ancient Mazowia.

LOL. In your dreams. It is the borderland between Wielkopolska and Mazovia.

[Rethel]

He wrote they were of pure Polish blood. So they couldn't be Mazovians. :)

Nope. He wrote, they were pure lacka blood.
Lacki - typical mazowian word, according to some theory even a remains of original sarmatian Lęchs/Licikaviki.

According to Nestor, Mazowians were Lechites too, not only Poles.

Jabłonna Lacka, Kosów Lacki - typical mazowian settlements in Podlachia as opposition to their russian neighbours.

Even the probable origin of the name Mazowia is from Dobrzyńland, where exists ancient village Mazowsze.

Dobrzyńland until 1248 year belonged to Mazowia, since the forgotten times, the same as Kulmerland.

[Veslan]

DId poles accept the idea that gorals have vlach ancestry? Or?
I found many similiarites between us and they.

They are clearly non-Slavic to a high degree. They look dark, and more Alpine-like than Northern Poles like Mazovians and Wielkopolans. But I suspect they have more to do with "original" pre-Slavic, and probably pre-Indo-European inhabitants of Poland, who just migrated to highlands because Slavs or Corded Ware IEs took over the Polish plain, and this is a reason why they look similiar to Romanians, who are also dark and native to the Carpathian mountains. Haplogroup I2a is also much more common there than in the North.

[Peterski]

DNA Land Ancestry Report results for 16 ethnic Poles from various regions:

https://i.imgur.com/tDt6At6.png

[Peterski]

DNA Land Ancestry Report results for 16 ethnic Poles from various regions:

https://i.imgur.com/tDt6At6.png

^^^
The one with 86% North Slavic is a North-Eastern Kresowiak. He lives in Poland (family resettled after WW2).

His Eurogenes K36 results:

Central_Euro 6.22
East_Balkan 7.65
East_Central_Euro 30.42
Eastern_Euro 18.13
Fennoscandian 16.44
French 1.88
Iberian 6.89
Italian 2.46
North_Atlantic 2.25
North_Sea 7.61

Check his genetic similarity rates on map in Eurogenes K36 calculator (note the 88% similarity to Latvians):

http://gen3553.pagesperso-orange.fr/ADN/similitude.htm

https://i.imgur.com/wY6gSe5.png

And below, his DNA Land results:

http://www.anthrogenica.com/showthread.php?8273-Southern-Polish-results-from-DNA-Land&p=221637&viewfull=1#post221637

And he has ancestry from what is today Northern Belarus and Southern Latvia:

http://i.imgur.com/luLrkpU.png

He has N1c haplogroup and he scores 86% "North Slavic" in DNA Land:

http://i.imgur.com/ToizhzM.png

Polish-Latvian border dispute 1919-1939:

https://latvianhistory.com/2014/09/10/latvian-polish-border-dispute-1919-1939/

For comparison, here is an ethnic Belarusian in DNA Land:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?187622-Post-your-DNA-Land-ancestry-composion-results&p=3889950&viewfull=1#post3889950

https://s10.postimg.org/6tc5fk08p/image.png

^^^ And his Eurogenes K36 results:

Basque 1.72
Central_Euro 8.82
East_Balkan 3.60
East_Central_Euro 25.19
Eastern_Euro 23.82
Fennoscandian 15.70
French 5.12
Iberian 4.34
Italian 1.05
North_Atlantic 5.16
North_Caucasian 0.79
North_Sea 2.41
Volga-Ural 2.30

About the resettlement of Poles from Lithuania and Belarus:


8. Kresowiaks. From the 14th century onwards, the expansion of Polish (mostly Mazur/Mazovian, but also Greater Polish and other) settlers towards the north-east, as well as cultural Polonization of local inhabitants, led to the emergence of Wilniuks (North-Eastern Poles) in the Land of Wilno (Wileńszczyzna), which encompasses the borderlands of Belarus, Lithuania and Southern Latvia (Polish Livonia). At the same time, the expansion of Polish settlers (mostly Lesser Poles) towards the south-east, as well as cultural Polonization of local inhabitants, led to the emergence of South-Eastern Poles in Red Ruthenia (with its main cultural centre - Lwów, Lviv), Volhynia and Podolia.

Today at least 15% of citizens of Poland have ancestry from former Kresy, from what is now Belarus, Lithuania, Ukraine, Latvia and Russia. Here is a Polish thread about Kresowiaks in various regions:

http://www.historycy.org/index.php?showtopic=153392&hl=

In English: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.historycy.org%2Findex.php%3Fsho wtopic%3D153392%26hl%3D

There are also a lot of ethnic Poles who still live in Belarus and Lithuania, because only around 1/2 of Poles were deported from those areas to Poland between 1944 and 1959 (from Ukraine a higher percent):

A comparison of the situation of Polish minority in Lithuania and Lithuanian minority in Poland:

http://s7.postimg.org/4v7wtmasr/PL_in_LT_LT_in_PL.png


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3JiS-6kFG4

But despite such discrimination, Polish national identity in Lithuania is only growing stronger:

http://s15.postimg.org/aq3276p2j/AWPL.png

Soviet 1959 census (already after the post-war expulsion of around 1/2 of local Poles):

http://images70.fotosik.pl/207/d393f526745778ae.jpg

http://s8.postimg.org/4xhxjah7p/Belarus_Changes.png


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sfg4Xo6zpDM

Ethnic & religious structure of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania in 1789 (before the 2nd Partition):

Total population ------- ca. 3,85 million

Religious structure:

Uniates -------------- 39% (1,5 million)
Roman Catholics ---- 38% (1,47 million)
Jews ----------------- 10% (0,385 million)
Orthodoxes ---------- 7% (0,25 million)
Old Believers -------- 3,6% (0,14 million)
Protestants ---------- 1,5% (0,06 million)
Muslims & Karaites - 1,0% (0,04 million)

Ethnic structure:

Belarusians --------- 37% (1,42 million)
Poles ---------------- 26% (1,01 million)
Lithuanians --------- 20% (0,77 million)
Jews ---------------- 10% (0,385 million)
Russians ------------ 3,6% (0,14 million)
others* ------------- 3,4% (0,13 million)

*Mostly Germans, Karaites and Latvians.

In areas lost by the Grand Duchy of Lithuania to Russia in 1772 (First Partition) there were 1,2 million people and 82% of them were Belarusians (3,4% were Russians).

Another estimate says that Lithuanians were almost 35% of the population of the Grand Duchy in 1790 (around 155,000 Lithuanian households out of 451,132 households in total), and less than 25% before 1772 (when mostly ethnically Belarusian lands were lost).

In 1790 the nobility of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania inhabited 100 palaces, 494 urban houses, 9331 large manor houses and 13890 rural houses.

====

Sources:

Pages 30-31: https://ngoteka.pl/bitstream/handle/item/280/Pod_wspolnym_niebem-MK-WT.pdf?sequence=1

Pages 262-264: http://zbc.uz.zgora.pl/Content/20013/Przemiany_druk.pdf

====

The number of ethnic Lithuanians in the Russian Empire in 1795 was 818,800 according to V. M. Kabuzan. Vast majority were Roman Catholics. Three decades later - in a book from 1825 - S. Plater wrote that in late 1810s there were 1,080,000 Lithuanians in the Russian Empire and 200,000 Lithuanians in East Prussia. But those in East Prussia were Lutherans, not Catholics.

Official Prussian/German census data shows that the % of Lithuanians in East Prussia was declining:

1825 - 139,268 (12,13% of the total population of East Prussia)
1837 - 148,301 (11,49%)
1848 - 150,580 (10,26%)
1871 - 139,450 (7,65%)
1878 - 131,415 (6,91%)
1890 - 121,345 (6,19% of the total population of East Prussia)

Compare this with ca. 200,000 (18,52%) Prussian Lithuanians in late 1810s according to S. Plater.

====

Ethnic structure of the Russian Empire in 1795:

https://s3.postimg.org/4i1a8rjv7/Russian_pop.png

https://s3.postimg.org/4i1a8rjv7/Russian_pop.png

https://s17.postimg.org/4bwiz8uj3/Kabuzan_1.png

https://s3.postimg.org/gqad6028j/Kabuzan_2.png

Number of Poles deported by railway from Western Belarus after WW2:

1945 – 135,654
1946 – 136,419
1947 – 2,090
=========
1955 – 10,067
1956 – 30,639
1957 – 46,634
1958 – 13,290

Number of Poles deported by railway from Lithuania after WW2:

1945 – 73,042
1946 – 123,443
1947 – 671
=========
1955 – 5,849
1956 – 17,825
1957 – 16,044
1958 – 6,834

In total 274,163 from Western Belarus (areas which on 01.09.1939 belonged to Poland) and 197,156 from Lithuania in first repatriation (1944-1948) as well as 100,630 from Western Belarus and 46,552 from Lithuania in second repatriation (1955-1959).

However, as Polish geographer and historian - Piotr Eberhardt - noticed in article about ethnic Poles from Belarus:

"According to official data 274,2 thousand Poles came from Western Belarus to Poland . But in fact a lot more came. Official data does not include all categories of Polish people who left former eastern Polish territories. During the German occupation many Poles from those Eastern territories were transported to Germany [as compulsory labour workers, prisoners of POW camps, concentration camp inmates, etc.]. They stayed in the West and after WW2 returned directly to Poland within its new borders, not to their former homes. Official data also did not include flights and groups of refugees, people recruited to the Polish Army [including Polish People's Army], as well as those who in 1942 left the Soviet Union with the Army of gen. Anders. After counting all these categories of people we can conclude, that the broadly understood first repatriation from Western Belarus affected over 400 thousand people of Polish nationality, who as the result abandoned forever the territory of Belarus. (…) In further years (1948-1959) remaining Polish population in Belarus experienced considerable natural growth. It was, however, entirely reduced by another repatriation conducted in years 1955-1959, which included around 250,000 [245,501] people permanently leaving the Soviet Union."

What can be added is that official data for first repatriation given above included deportations by railway, in addition to them also deportations by trucks took place – they transported in total 22,815 Poles from the Soviet Union to Poland, but no breakdown is given so we don't know how many of them were from Western Belarus and from Lithuania.

Numbers of Poles deported by railway from Eastern Belarus (pre-1939 Soviet Belarus) are also not included in those figures given above – they are included among Poles deported from „other parts of the Soviet Union”, who amounted to 266,833 in period 1944-1949 and 22,260 more in period 1955-1959 (these numbers also include Poles deported from pre-1939 Soviet Ukraine – while numbers of Poles deported from Western Ukraine were 787,674 in 1944-1948 and 76,059 more in 1955-1959).

The real number of Poles who left Western Belarus in 1944-1959 was therefore over 500,000 (including over 400,000 in 1944-1947) and the number of those who left Lithuania over 250,000 up to 300,000 (including over 200,000 up to 250,000 in 1944-1947).

We don't know how many left or were deported from Eastern Belarus – but according to pre-WW2 official Soviet census of 1926 Polish minority in Soviet Belarus numbered around 100 thousand people at that time (97,500). Add to this natural increase until WW2, and the number was much higher in the 1930s. Another question is how many of them survived Soviet pre-war persecutions (see the Polish Operation of the NKVD in 1937 - 1938) and then WW2. Anyway - according to 1959 census Eastern Belarus had a smaller number of Poles (see below).

Official data for number of Poles deported by railway and trucks – as already explained above - is not the full picture because apart from repatriation there were other ways how Poles from Kresy migrated to Poland after WW2. Already until 01.01.1947 almost 560,000 people who came through ways other than repatriation (including refugees, demobilized soldiers, those who before WW2 lived east of the Curzon Line but who after WW2 came from camps & forced labour in Germany and settled west of the CL, etc.). In total on 1 January 1947 there were 2,05 million „Soviet Poles” in new borders of Poland. And in December 1950 - 2,2 million „Soviet Poles”.

On 1 January 1947 out of those 2,05 million „Soviet Poles” – 1,7 million lived in former German territories (of them around 1,24 million deported by railway and trucks, 190 thousand who came from the west – for example from forced labour in Germany, POW camps, etc. - 200 thousand who were refugees from the Volhynian-Galician Genocide and similar events and around 70 thousand demobilized soldiers, mostly from the Polish People's Army) and 0,35 million in other parts of Poland (here we can estimate that no more than 0,25 million were officially deported and the rest of them were forced labourers returning from Germany, refugees, POWs, etc.).

In December 1950 out of 2,2 million „Soviet Poles” around 1,6 million lived in former German territories (Western Poland) and around 0,6 million in other parts of new Communist Poland (Central Poland). So proportion of those living in Central Poland increased).

Despite all those events – wartime deaths and post-war deportations, flights, emigration, evacuations, etc. of hundreds of thousands of Poles from former Polish territories, after WW2 belonging to the Soviet Union – the official Soviet census of 1959 still counted 1,380,282 Poles in the Soviet Union, with 768,988 of them (so over half of the total number) in Belarusian SSR and Lithuanian SSR.

Even if we go by this official Soviet 1959 census data, which – most probably – underestimated the number of remaining Polish minority in the Soviet Union, the following area had absolute Polish majority, and was still ethnically Polish in 1959, even though less so than before WW2:

Areas still inhabited by ethnic Polish majority as of 1959, after removal of most of ethnic Polish population:

http://images70.fotosik.pl/207/d393f526745778ae.jpg

According to official Soviet Union's 1959 census there were still 538,881 Poles in Belarus, of whom 454,348 (84,3%) were rural population – as flights and deportations of 1944-1959 as well as previous wartime mortality affected urban Poles more than rural Poles.

Number of Poles in Belarus by Oblast according to 1959 census:

In provinces located entirely in what used to be Polish part of Belarus before WW2:

Grodno Oblast – 332,300
Brest Oblast – 42,100

In provinces located mostly in former Polish territory, but partially in Soviet Belarus:

Vitebsk Oblast – 83,800
Minsk Oblast – 64,400

And in provinces located entirely in what was Soviet Belarus before WW2:

Gomel Oblast – 7,200
City Minsk – 5,600
Mogilev Oblast – 3,500

Districts of North-Western Belarus with highest percentages (between 90% and 30%) of Poles according to 1959 census (and there were many more districts in 1959 with between 15% and 30% Poles, but I won't list them here. Many of them had over 50% Poles in 1938):

Radun - 25,842 Poles (87,4%) and 1,705 Belarusians
Voranava – 16,117 Poles (86,8%) and 1,342 Belarusians
Ivyanets – 27,529 Poles (75,6%) and 7,830 Belarusians
Svir – 20,898 Poles (72,0%) and 6,320 Belarusians
Astravyets – 17,966 Poles (65,5%) and 6,831 Belarusians
Lida – 40,117 Poles (55,1%) and 22,048 Belarusians
Vidzy – 9,468 Poles (51,2%) and 5,176 Belarusians
Shchuchyn – 19,032 Poles (50,4%) and 14,781 Belarusians
Vasilishki – 16,496 Poles (49,9%) and 15,648 Belarusians
=================
Pastavy – 18,912 Poles (43,3%) and 17,173 Belarusians
Braslaw – 14,873 Poles (40,6%) and 14,482 Belarusians
=================
Dunilovichi – 13,857 Poles (47,0%) and 14,024 Belarusians
Ivye – 12,877 Poles (41,5%) and 16,552 Belarusians
Grodno – 50,159 Poles (38,1%) and 51,570 Belarusians
Valozhyn – 14,063 Poles (37,8%) and 21,652 Belarusians
Vawkavysk – 21,924 Poles (35,4%) and 32,140 Belarusians
Zelva – 11,175 Poles (29,1%) and 26,001 Belarusians

In total according to 1959 census these 17 districts had 713,988 inhabitants, including 351,305 Poles, 275,275 Belarusians, 66,537 Russians and 20,871 people of other nationalities (including the Romani people and others brought in to replace expelled Poles).

=================================================

According to official Soviet Union's 1959 census there were still 230,107 Poles in Lithuania of whom 161,523 (70,2%) were rural population - as flights and deportations of 1944-1959 as well as previous wartime mortality affected urban Poles more than rural Poles.

Districts with highest percentages of Poles according to 1959 census:

City Vilnius – 47,226 Poles (20,0%) and 79,363 Lithuanians (33,6%)
=================
Vilnius – 64,467 Poles (80,3%) and 5,546 Lithuanians (6,9%)
Salcininkai – 37,182 Poles (85,2%) and 2,918 Lithuanians (6,7%)
=================
Trakai (+ Elektrenai) – 24,332 Poles (43,4%) and 5,103 Lithuanians (9,1%)
Svencionys – 18,158 Poles (45,7%) and 5,901 Lithuanians (14,9%)

In total according to 1959 census these 6 districts had over 455,000 inhabitants, including 191,365 Poles, 98,831 Lithuanians and about 165,000 other people (mostly Russian immigrants, as well as for example the Romani and others brought in to replace expelled Poles).

====================================

In total those 23 districts of Western Belarus and Lithuania according to 1959 census had ca. 1,170,000 inhabitants including - according to official data - ca. 543,000 Poles (or over 70% of all ethnic Poles living in these two Soviet republics at that time), despite previous ethnic cleansing.

All of Belarus and Lithuania had 768,988 ethnic Poles according to official 1959 data - including 615,871 rural people (80,1% of the total) and 153,117 urban people (19,9% of the total) - even though before WW2 ethnic Poles in Belarus and Lithuania were more urbanized than all other ethnic groups living in these regions, with the only exception of Jews. That was because post-war deportations and wartime losses affected ethnic Poles in cities (such as for example Vilnius and Grodno) more heavily than ethnic Poles in the countryside. Due to that expulsion of Poles from cities (and from villages as well, only to a lesser extent) and replacement by other ethnic groups, in 1959 Poles were actually the least urbanized (only 19,9%) of all ethnic groups in Belarus and Lithuania (the opposite of the 1938 situation, when Poles were the 2nd most urbanized group after Jews).

Soviet authorities left a larger % of rural Poles, hoping that Polish peasants were easier to De-Polonize (Lithuanize/Russify/Belarusify).

On the other hand a larger % of urban Poles - with a higher level of national consciousness (sense of Polishness) - got deported.

=========================================

Despite this, modern studies carried out recently by the Grodno University and by the Minsk University show that vast majority of Roman Catholics in Belarus identify as Poles and an even larger percent declare Polish ancestry (i.e. some no longer identify as fully Poles, but still declare Polish ancestry).

For research carried out by Grodno University, which shows that 83,3% of Roman Catholics in the Grodno Oblast identify as fully Poles (the rest of Roman Catholics there identify as both Poles and Belarusians or just Belarusians) and even more - because 95% - declare Polish ancestry (including also mixed Polish-Belarusian ancestry) check this source:

https://i.imgur.com/l0WhAId.png

In another survey from 2003, as many as 82% of Catholics in Belarus declared that they have Polish ancestry, including 66% with fully Polish ancestry and 16% from mixed families. In the westernmost Diocese of Grodno 95% of Catholics declared Polish ancestry, while in the easternmost Archdiocese of Minsk-Mogilev still as many as 73%.

This 2003 survey found out that 80% of Catholics in the Diocese of Grodno identify as fully Poles - so slightly less than according to that 2000 research by the University of Grodno (which showed 83,3%). In other dioceses percentages of Roman Catholics who identify as fully Polish are 70% in the Diocese of Pinsk, 57% in the Diocese of Vitebsk and just 35% in the Archdiocese of Minsk-Mogilev (compared to 73% who declared Polish ancestry in the Archdiocese of Minsk-Mogilev).

In the nationwide scale (entire Belarus on average), 63% of Roman Catholics identify as fully Poles (2003 data), 66% declare fully Polish ancestry, and 16% declare mixed Polish-Belarusian or Polish-other ancestry (in total 82% declare Polish ancestry). Regional breakdowns above.

There are also a lot of Non-Catholic (Atheist, Orthodox, etc.) Poles in Belarus, because in some regions % of Poles is higher than % of Catholics.

Belarusians are slowly becoming Russians.

In 1959 census only 6,8% of people who declared Belarusian ethnicity declared that Russian is their native language.

By comparison, in 1999 census only 41,3% of people who declare Belarusian ethnicity declared that they speak Belarusian in daily life (among urban population who declare Belarusian ethnicity, only 23% spoke Belarusian in daily life in 1999).

=================================================

Below some data illustrating the effects of post-war deportations on ethnic Polish population in the Grodno-Vilna areas of Belarus:

This data is from an article written (in Polish) by a Belarusian from Grodno - Siarhiej Tokć:

http://kamunikat.fontel.net/pdf/bzh/22/03.pdf

Examples from three raions (counties) - Wasiliszki, Wołkowysk and Skidel. If we count these three counties altogether then their total population in 1945-1947 (Skidel in 1947, the other two counties in 1945) was - according to Belarusian data - 124.451 including 60.615 Poles, 61.295 Belarusians, 1.407 Russians and 1.134 others. By 1959 their population was 136.382 including 43.356 Poles, 80.307 Belarusians, 9.637 Russians and 3.082 others. So as we can see the percentage of Russians among the population increased from 1.13% in 1945-1947 to 7.07% in 1959.

In 1945 Poles were an absolute majority in Wasiliszki and Wołkowysk. By 1959 they were still a relative majority (49.2%) only in Wasiliszki:

https://i.imgur.com/RQV1rdk.png

National-linguistic and religious structure of North-East Poland in 1931 census (but it is possible that the number of Non-Catholic Poles was inflated, as national identity of those people was "uncertain"):

http://s4.postimg.org/qisk5fc1p/Kresy1.png
http://s17.postimg.org/g3mfdsxbj/Kresy2.png

[B]Number of Poles in former Kresy according to official census data:

1a+b = North-East Poland ------ 1,663,888 Poles (1931 Polish census)

2 = South-East Poland ---------- 2,249,703 Poles (1931 Polish census)
1.2 = Soviet Belarus ------------ 97,498 Poles (1926 Soviet census)
2.2 = Soviet Ukraine ------------ 476,435 Poles (1926 Soviet census)
1.3 = Lithuania ------------------ 202,026 Poles (1923 elections results)
1.4 = Latvia --------------------- 59,374 Poles (1930 Latvian census)
3 = Soviet Russia --------------- 197,827 Poles (1926 Soviet census)

TOTAL ---------------------------- 5 million people (1926-1931 data)

http://s1.postimg.org/c0z5vvxjj/Kresy.png

Ethnic Poles around 1900-1920:

https://s3.postimg.org/9w5ybn10x/The_Poles_Map.png

https://s3.postimg.org/9w5ybn10x/The_Poles_Map.png

[Rethel]

Today at least 15% of citizens of Poland have ancestry from former Kresy

Rather maximum.

[Peterski]

In Eastern Galicia (present-day Western Ukraine and parts of South-Eastern Poland) ethnic and national identity correlated with religion, with mainly Roman Catholics identifying as Poles and Greek Catholics usually as Ukrainians (there were even families in which siblings had different ethnic / national identities). Here is a map of Polish and Ukrainian (including Rusyns / Ruthenians) areas in 1900:

http://i.imgur.com/wZZBi9g.png

Political situation in the late 16th century:

https://s30.postimg.org/t43kxofi9/Ukraine_16th_century.png

Borders of I RP in year 1772 and of II RP between the World Wars:

http://i.imgur.com/HdvubqI.png

This is a very good book (below I post Table 4.45 from this book):

Ethnic Groups and Population Changes in Twentieth-Century Central-Eastern Europe - Google Książki (https://books.google.pl/books/about/Ethnic_Groups_and_Population_Changes_in.html?id=jL fX1q3kJzgC&redir_esc=y)

http://i.imgur.com/9LMM7iD.png

There are even families where one brother identified as Rusyn and the other one as Polish.

Just to mention the Szeptycki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szeptycki_family

Polish patriot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisław_Szeptycki
Ukrainian patriot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrey_Sheptytsky

They were brothers. But similar examples are also from North-Eastern Kresy:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel_Narutowicz
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanisław_Narutowicz

Also brothers.

[Peterski]

I forgot about 9. Polonia - Polish Diasporas around the world! Millions of people:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_contemporary_ethnic_groups#Ethnic_groups

https://i.imgur.com/nQlKBcl.png

Polish-Americans originated from several waves of immigration, including some recent ones after the fall of Communism. But most of them are descended from the largest and oldest wave (if not counting small-scale influx prior to that, e.g. Polish craftsmen in Jamestown), which took place between 1854 and ca. 1924:

http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=pl&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.historycy.org%2Findex.php%3Fsho wtopic%3D134951%26view%3Dfindpost%26p%3D1549907

That immigration is covered by book "A History of Poles in America until 1908" by Waclaw Kruszka:

https://www.google.pl/search?q=A+History+of+Poles+in+America+to+1908+&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=G0ygWIyaPMSRsAGmiJDABw

I made a map of the distribution of Polish-Americans ca. year 1900, according to Kruszka's book:

http://s29.postimg.org/7wc62b7br/Poles_USA_1900.png

http://s29.postimg.org/7wc62b7br/Poles_USA_1900.png

Detailed estimates:

Pennsylvania - ca. 350,000 (and 112 Polish settlements, and 85 Polish churches)
New York - ca. 340,000 (and 90 Polish settlements, and 46 Polish churches)
Illinois - ca. 300,000 (and 56 Polish settlements, and 49 Polish churches)
New England (3 states below) - ca. 160,000 (70 Polish settlements, 30 Polish churches):
*** Massachussetts - ca. 100,000
*** Connecticut - ca. 50,000
*** Rhode Island - ca. 10,000
Wisconsin - ca. 150,000 (and 101 Polish settlements, and 76 Polish churches)
Michigan - ca. 140,000 (and 73 Polish settlements, and 48 Polish churches)
Minnesota - ca. 80,000 (and 60 Polish settlements, and 47 Polish churches)
Ohio - ca. 80,000 (and 30 Polish settlements, and 15 Polish churches)
New Jersey - ca. 70,000 (and 30 Polish settlements, and 16 Polish churches)
Indiana - ca. 33,800 (and 39 Polish settlements, and 18 Polish churches)
Nebraska - ca. 29,000 (and 29 Polish settlements, and 20 Polish churches)
Missouri - ca. 28,700 (and 12 Polish settlements, and 11 Polish churches)
Maryland - ca. 25,700
Texas - ca. 19,750 (and 34 Polish settlements, and 30 Polish churches)
North Dakota - ca. 16,600 (and 11 Polish settlements and 5 Polish churches)
South Dakota - ca. 9,950
Delaware - ca. 8,000
Kansas - ca. 8,000
California - ca. 6,000
New Hampshire - ca. 5,000
Arkansas - ca. 5,000

All other states - ca. 50,000

Grand total:

1.9 million (out of U.S. population of ca. 76 million), 810 Polish settlements, 517 Polish churches.

Some additional notes:

"Polish settlements" = settlements which were mostly Polish, or had some Polish district, or some large Polish community. Apart from living in such settlements, many families also lived dispersed all over other places.

"Polish churches" = Christian churches with sermons in Polish (or in English, but for Polish communities).

[Lucas]

Form Russian Atlas Narodov Mira 1964, so there were official Soviet data.

Poles 4 yellowish color and red bar

Ukraine (biggest areas in central Ukraine)
https://s1.postimg.org/12720dum3x/p0017.jpg

North East
https://s1.postimg.org/47zbdhp3t9/p0016.jpg

north Kazakhstan
Poles 6 yellowish color and red bar
There was one region with Polish majority and three with Polish and German (8 brown). Of course those people were forced to settle there in Stalin times. Interesting is German dominance in many areas of North Kazakhstan in those times.

https://s1.postimg.org/5f9fc9fxpp/p0023.jpg

[Rethel]

Na Ukrainie prawie wyczyszczone... :pout:

[Lucas]

Na Ukrainie prawie wyczyszczone... :pout:

But KAzkahstan!

[Peterski]

Na Ukrainie prawie wyczyszczone... :pout:

Censuses could be falsified and underestimate % of Poles. Also some people with Polish ancestry prefer to identify as Ukrainians due to political reasons. This babushka probably identifies as Ukrainian:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KjRJAk_5Rk

According to polmap (website is now down), there are over 1 million Poles in Ukraine:

http://polmap.republika.pl

https://i.imgur.com/nQlKBcl.png

[Rethel]

Censuses could be falsified and underestimate % of Poles. Also some people with Polish ancestry prefer to identify as Ukrainians due to political reasons.

In such case probably it would be better to resettle them to Poland.
It is heartbreakening to see a Pole, who thinks he is Russkie... :picard1:

[Karol Klačansky]

Censuses could be falsified and underestimate % of Poles. Also some people with Polish ancestry prefer to identify as Ukrainians due to political reasons. This babushka probably identifies as Ukrainian:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KjRJAk_5Rk

According to polmap (website is now down), there are over 1 million Poles in Ukraine:

http://polmap.republika.pl

https://i.imgur.com/nQlKBcl.pngThe grandma sounds like she speaks a mixture of Polish, Russian, and Slovak. I could understand her much better than any pole.

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

[Peterski]

The grandma sounds like she speaks a mixture of Polish, Russian, and Slovak. I could understand her much better than any pole.

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

In that video she is speaking in Ukrainian but singing in Polish.

[Karol Klačansky]

In that video she is speaking in Ukrainian but singing in Polish.Ah ok yes the song sounded Polish. Didn't realize Ukrainian is so close to Slovak. Sounds a lot like Slovak with some weird Polish and Russian influence.

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

[Peterski]

Very good Hungarian maps about "In-Between Europe" (Köztes-Európa):

http://terkepek.adatbank.transindex.ro

3. Köztes-Európa történelmi tájai:

http://terkepek.adatbank.transindex.ro/kepek/netre/03.gif

9. A lengyel nemzet Köztes-Európában, 1897/1910:

http://terkepek.adatbank.transindex.ro/kepek/netre/09.gif

And here is my map for comparison:

https://s3.postimg.org/9w5ybn10x/The_Poles_Map.png

[Rethel]

They forgot about Samogitians... :pout:

[ЛыSSый]

but might czehs and germans be counted as polish subdivisions too?

[Rethel]

but might czehs and germans be counted as polish subdivisions too?

Yep.

[ЛыSSый]

Yep.

... and rein region is just western priwislje?

[Rethel]

... and rein region is just western priwislje?

Mazowia.

[ЛыSSый]

Mazowia.

little bro, how about switzerland? Maybe it's time to ask some green peoples help make some referendum there?

[Rethel]

little bro, how about switzerland? Maybe it's time to ask some green peoples help make some referendum there?

As they speak vistulian german, they can be counted too.

[Ülev]

little bro, how about switzerland?

this time not Mazowian, but Kashubian!!!! ---> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szwajcaria_Kaszubska

Szwajcaria Kaszubska (Kaszëbskô Szwajcariô, Kashubian and German: Kaschubische Schweiz) (literally: Kashubian Switzerland)

[ЛыSSый]

As they speak vistulian german, they can be counted too.

fck, privislje is rising on my eyes.

[Viking]

poles, germans, balkans slavs the main groups of Poles.

[Rethel]

poles, germans, balkans slavs the main groups of Poles.

And Samogitains, Nalshchanians, Dziawołtians and Aukshtotians as well...

[Viking]

samogitains?

[Rethel]

samogitains?

Żmudzins if you will...

[Peterski]

I forgot about two more subdivisions:

10. Iberian Poles:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?223830-Polonia-Iberica

11. Oceanian Poles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPHX3j8AbEU

[ЛыSSый]

I forgot about two more subdivisions:

10. Iberian Poles:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?223830-Polonia-Iberica

11. Oceanian Poles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPHX3j8AbEU

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/agritura/16089606/5468897/5468897_original.jpg

[ЛыSSый]

i've found some more polish lands

http://s013.radikal.ru/i322/1109/9e/6d23e442065a.jpg

[Peterski]

This is Polish land: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jaxa_(state)

[Pahli]

Is there any Polish tribe by the name of Kurwa? xD

[Peterski]

Is there any Polish tribe by the name of Kurwa? xD

No but there is a Baltic tribe of Kur(w)onians / Kur(w)en:

http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?p=139444309#post139444309


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWus5ZdumbU

http://wiki-commons.genealogy.net/images/9/92/Bild_Karte_Das_lettische_Sprachgebiet_in_Ostpreuss en.gif

[Pahli]

What about the so claimed Sarmatian descendants, where are they mostly found in Poland? xD

[Ülev]

What about the so claimed Sarmatian descendants, where are they mostly found in Poland? xD

south east Poland, I2a1 people

In addition, living examples of the precursor Haplogroup IJ* have been found only in Iran, among the Mazandarani and ethnic Persians from Fars.[3] This may indicate that IJ originated in South West Asia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M170

plus J2b1 M205
J2b1-M205 is found especially in the western Balkans, Cyprus, the Levant, the South Caucasus and Iran

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b1.png

I and J are Caucasoids

https://78.media.tumblr.com/8932a922914a569226fca1545a038a05/tumblr_inline_ny4rjs3mdX1sxre9s_540.png
https://kundalinirising88.tumblr.com/post/133646599151/the-three-main-races

R1 was originally Steppe Mongoloid, but by centuries some descendants took theirs mother's Caucasoid features

[Pahli]

south east Poland, I2a1 people

In addition, living examples of the precursor Haplogroup IJ* have been found only in Iran, among the Mazandarani and ethnic Persians from Fars.[3] This may indicate that IJ originated in South West Asia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I-M170

plus J2b1 M205
J2b1-M205 is found especially in the western Balkans, Cyprus, the Levant, the South Caucasus and Iran

https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b1.png

I and J are Caucasoids

https://78.media.tumblr.com/8932a922914a569226fca1545a038a05/tumblr_inline_ny4rjs3mdX1sxre9s_540.png
https://kundalinirising88.tumblr.com/post/133646599151/the-three-main-races

R1 was originally Steppe Mongoloid, but by centuries some descendants took theirs mother's Caucasoid features

I'm J1 myself (most likely one of the first J1s to spread out in West Asia over 10000 years ago) but my mtdna is L3d1-5 which is one of the first out of Africa humans in Eurasia, I guess that makes me semi-Caucasoid by looking at haplos xD

[Peterski]

What about the so claimed Sarmatian descendants, where are they mostly found in Poland? xD


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_FXHRWDXEI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZzUHR62Puu4

[Ülev]

I'm J1 myself (most likely one of the first J1s to spread out in West Asia over 10000 years ago) but my mtdna is L3d1-5 which is one of the first out of Africa humans in Eurasia, I guess that makes me semi-Caucasoid by looking at haplos xD

yup, R1 Stockholm Syndrome

South "Slavs" still use some words from Old-Avestan like "vatra" - fire, other Slavic people use word ogień, ohen, ogon (agon')
Croatian national football team is called "Vatreni", nothing "ogień" (ogniści/fiery) in this name

[Pahli]

yup, R1 Stockholm Syndrome

South "Slavs" still use some words from Old-Avestan like "vatra" - fire, other Slavic people use word ogień, ohen, ogon (agon')
Croatian national football team is called "Vatreni", nothing "ogień" (ogniści/fiery) in this name

The Avestan word for fire is "ātarš"

[Ülev]

The Avestan word for fire is "ātarš"

old-avestan or new? there was differences if I remember
this guy https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignacy_Pietraszewski
claimed similarities between old-avestan and Slavic, but he was a Pole, so could be something wrong, that language was more I2a1 than R1a, but White Croats and White Serbs lived for 2 centuries in "polish" lands

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Avesta%2C_translated_by_Ignacy_Pietraszewski.jpg

[Pahli]

old-avestan or new? there was differences if I remember
this guy https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignacy_Pietraszewski
claimed similarities between old-avestan and Slavic, but he was a Pole, so could be something wrong, that language was more I2a1 than R1a, but White Croats and White Serbs lived for 2 centuries in "polish" lands

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Avesta%2C_translated_by_Ignacy_Pietraszewski.jpg

Its in both Old and young Avestan, they are both very similar but Old Avestan is the most archaic. If you could reconstruct Proto-Indo-Iranian you'd probably get a lot more archaic words since both Avestan and Sanskrit have changed quite a bit since they split from Proto-Indo-Iranian.

[Pahli]

yup, R1 Stockholm Syndrome

South "Slavs" still use some words from Old-Avestan like "vatra" - fire, other Slavic people use word ogień, ohen, ogon (agon')
Croatian national football team is called "Vatreni", nothing "ogień" (ogniści/fiery) in this name

And by the way; "Svarog" God of fire is pretty similar to Indo-Iranian Svar / Swar which the Swastika also got its name from

[Rethel]

What about the so claimed Sarmatian descendants, where are they mostly found in Poland? xD

Should be mostly on Mazowia and Podlachia, but are everywhere.
After so many migrations in last century it is hard to say if Mazowia
is still the densiest country, but I guess that Podlachia still should be,
but noone knows, as noone ever counted it in recent times.

[Ülev]

And by the way; "Svarog" God of fire is pretty similar to Indo-Iranian Svar / Swar which the Swastika also got its name from

some borrowing occurs in both directions

[Pahli]

some borrowing occurs in both directions

They are both Satem languages so they are already similar to some point regardless of borrowings

[ЛыSSый]

THe thread must be renamed in "Subdivisions of Polish people: who will be the next?".

[Mikula]

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/agritura/16089606/5468897/5468897_original.jpg

Some Czechs asked for colonies, too (https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?190149-Togo-interwar-Czech-dreams-about-African-colony) :)

[Rethel]

I have somewhere the signboard of the Sea and Colonial League from my town :)

[Mikula]

I have somewhere the signboard of the Sea and Colonial League from my town :)

And for which colonies they asked?

[Rethel]

And for which colonies they asked?

Czeskie Budziejowice :)

[Peterski]

http://i.imgur.com/8wMTpsr.png

For comparison here is how Living DNA decided to divide it:

https://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?225448-Polish-DNA-Project&p=4734542&viewfull=1#post4734542

https://www.livingdna.com/en-gb/one-family/research/poland

https://i.imgur.com/jx5iIHW.png

[Rethel]

Lubawa with Hajnówka... :picard1:

[Ülev]

Lubawa with Hajnówka... :picard1:

you from Hajnowka or Lubawa?

[Rethel]

you from Hajnowka or Lubawa?

Middle, like Doda ;)

[Finnish Swede]

Among ethnic Poles, we can distinguish at least the following major ethnographic groups:

1) Greater Poles (western Poles, Wielkopolanie, Polans),
2) Cuiavians (Kujawiacy),
3) Pomeranians,
4) Central Poles (historical Sieradz Land & Łęczyca Land),
5) Silesians,
6) Lesser Poles (southern Poles, Małopolanie, Vistulans),
7) Mazurs (Mazovians),
8) Kresowiaks (North-Eastern & South-Eastern Poles)

1) Greater Poles (Wielkopolanie, "Poles proper") inhabit more or less the original territory of the tribe of Polans (from which the names Poland and Poles are derived), as well as other areas where Greater Polish settlers and their dialect expanded throughout history. Greater Poland is the oldest part of Poland and this is where the Polish statehood emerged during the 9th and 10th centuries. Poznań is the main city of this region. We can distinguish smaller ethnographic subdivisions among Greater Poles. For example Pałuki, Biskupianie, Bambrzy (descended from Polonized German settlers from the area of Bamberg), Kaliszans, and others. In the territory of Greater Poland, there live also two Silesian-speaking ethnographic groups - Leśniaks, who live in the area of Rawicz, and Chwalimiaks, who live around Chwalim, Nowe Kramsko and Stare Kramsko. Some researchers include also 2) Cuiavians as a sub-division of Greater Poles. They inhabit areas from Lake Gopło in the south to Noteć River in the north-west and to Vistula River in the north-east. Descended from Cuiavian and Greater Polish settlers, are Kociewiaks, who live in the region of Kociewie in Eastern Pomerania, located between Starogard Pomorski, Tczew, Gniew, Świecie and to the outskirts of Gdańsk in the north. Groups intermediate between Greater Poles and Mazurs (but closer to Greater Poles), are Chełmniaks and Dobrzyniaks (who live in the lands of Chełmno and Dobrzyń), as well as Lubawiaks (in the land of Lubawa). Another intermediate group, but closer to Mazurs, are Catholic Warmiaks in the East Prussian region of Warmia (Ermland).

3) Pomeranians used to inhabit the entire land located to the north of Polans, between the swamps of Noteć River and the Baltic Sea. In the west, Pomeranians extended perhaps as far as the Rügen Island. In the east, they extended as far as the Vistula Lagoon, and their eastern neighbours were Baltic-speaking Prussians. Lipa (today Krynica Morska) was the easternmost Slavic-speaking village on the Baltic coast, but the area of Truso (today Elbląg) to the south of the Lagoon, was ethnically Old Prussian. Most of Pomeranians became Germanized throughout history. Only Eastern Pomeranians preserved their Slavic ethnicity, and are commonly known as Kashubians today. Kashubians who were under Polish rule during the 16th-18th centuries remained Catholic, while Kashubians who lived in Brandenburg-Prussia during the 18th century, were Lutherans. Kashubians could be divided into many smaller folk sub-dvisisions, such Kabatkowie, Karwatkowie, Pomarenkowie, Niniakowie, Beloki, Rybaki, Łyczaki, Lesoki, Korczaki, Zaboraki, Słowińcy (Slovincians), etc. From the Early Middle Ages, Pomerania was under strong Greater Polish and Cuiavian influences, which led to the emergence of several intermediary groups. From the mixture of Kashubians and Greater Poles, emerged an ethnographic group called Borowiaks, who live in the Tuchola Forests, between Tuchola, Koronowo, Świecie and Starogard. Borowiaks are intermediary, whereas another mixed group - Krajniaks - have a mostly Greater Polish character, with relatively minor Kashubian influences. They live in the region of Krajna.

The main city in the region has always been Gdańsk (Danzig), but it is not considered as part of ethnographic Kashubia because it was never Kashubian-dominated, but was either multicultural, German, or Polish throughout its history. Gdańsk is also located on the borderland between three ethnographic regions: Kashubia to the west, Kociewie to the south, Prussia to the east.

4) Central Poles (Łęczyczans and Sieradzans). Łęczyczans live between Greater Poland and Mazovia, and are an intermediate group, originally closer to Greater Poles but with significant Mazur influences. Sieradzans on the other hand, are surrounded by Greater Poland, Lesser Poland and Silesia, and are under strong influence of all three regions. They lost much of their original distinctness. The main city in this region is Łódź, but it originated during the Industrial Revolution, historically it was not an important settlement.

5) Silesians. In the Early Middle Ages, Silesia was inhabited by several Slavic tribes. The most numerous tribe (which ultimately gave its name to the region) were the Slenzans, who lived around Wrocław. They probably numbered 60-75,000 people. The Opolans lived around Opole, their population was perhaps 30-40,000. The Dyadosans lived near Głogów, probably 30,000 people. The Golensizians dwelled near Racibórz, Cieszyn and Opawa. The Lupiglaa probably lived on the Głubczyce Plateau. The Tryebovians occupied areas near Legnica and could number some 25-30,000 individuals. The Poborans lived along the lower and middle course of the Bóbr River. The Psyovians lived near Pszów, to the east of the Opolans and to the west of Cracow. As of year 1000 AD, the total population of Silesia is estimated as around 250,000 people. Following the German Ostsiedlung of the 13th century, the population of Silesia increased to around 510,000 in year 1350 AD (150,000 in Upper Silesia and 360,000 in Lower Silesia), of whom up to 150,000 were Germans. Germans settled mostly in western and northern parts of Lower Silesia. Upper Silesia was less affected by the Ostsiedlung. During the following centuries cultural Germanization gradually shifted the ethnic structure of Silesia, so that by the 20th century nearly all of Lower Silesia had a German-speaking majority. But Upper Silesia remained majority Polish-speaking. There were also Czech-speaking communities. Upper Silesians can be divided into a dozen or so smaller sub-divisions. But the most pronounced difference is between Cieszyn Silesia and the rest of Upper Silesia. This difference emerged due to political border which divided Upper Silesia between Prussia and Austria in the 1740s. Among smaller ethnographic groups which live in Cieszyn Silesia, we can distinguish Silesian Gorals (Silesian Highlanders).

6) Lesser Poles (Małopolanie). Southern Poles. They can be divided into several major sub-groups - Krakowiaks (in the region of Cracow), Gorals (Polish Highlanders), Sandomirians, Lubliniaks and inhabitants of Podkarpacie (Subcarpathia). Krakowiaks live to the north of Gorals, to the east of Silesians, to the west of Sandomirians, in the north they extend as far as Częstochowa and Kielce. This Cracow group can be further subdivided into smaller ethnographic regions. Among Lesser Poles, especially strongly differentiated are the Gorals, who can be further divided into Beskid Gorals, Podhalans, Kliszczaks, Lachy Sądeckie, and several smaller groups. In the east, Lesser Polish Gorals have Ruthenian-speaking Gorals as their neighbours. There is a lot of overlap with Slovak-speaking Gorals in the south. Sandomirians extend in the north as far as Skaryszew and Iłża, in the west beyond Chęciny. Lubliniaks live to the east of Sandomirians in the areas around Lublin, Chełm, Zamość, Tomaszów, Janów and Biłgoraj. To the south of them live Rzeszowiaks, in Podkarpacie (Subcarpathia).

7) Mazurs (Mazovians). They consist of proper Mazurs, known also as Central Mazurs, who live between Sierpc and Płock up to the lower Wieprz River. Between Central Mazurs and Podlasie is the homeland of Eastern Mazurs, and in southern parts of East Prussia - the homeland of Lutheran, Prussian Mazurs, descended from Central Mazurs who settled there in the 14th, 15th and 16th centuries, and assimilated remnants of West Baltic-speaking Old Prussian population. Another Medieval expansion of Mazurs, to the east, into former Yotvingian (ethnically West Baltic) territories, led to the emergence of Sudovian Poles and of Podlasie Mazurs (in the areas around Węgrów, Siedlce, Puławy, Łuków, Sokołów, Włodawa, as far as the Biebrza River). Another group descended from a mix of Poles (mostly Mazurs) and West Balts are the Kurpie, who live in Puszcza Zielona and Puszcza Biała (Green Forest and White Forest). Yet another sub-division of Mazurs, which developed a very rich folk culture thanks to having special privileges and prosperity, are Łowiczans (around Łowicz).

The capital of Poland, Warsaw, is located in the land of Central Mazurs. However, as any large city it has always been a melting pot of people from all regions of Poland and from abroad. In the Early Middle Ages, Płock was a more important city.

8) Kresowiaks. From the 14th century onwards, the expansion of Polish (mostly Mazur, but also Greater Polish and other) settlers towards the north-east, as well as cultural Polonization of local inhabitants, led to the emergence of Wilniuks (North-Eastern Poles) in the Land of Wilno (Wileńszczyzna), which encompasses the borderlands of Belarus, Lithuania and Southern Latvia (Polish Livonia). At the same time, the expansion of Polish settlers (mostly Lesser Poles) towards the south-east, as well as cultural Polonization of local inhabitants, led to the emergence of South-Eastern Poles in Red Ruthenia (with its main cultural centre - Lwów, Lviv), Volhynia and Podolia.

Interesting. Are there any visual differencies between those groups?

[Peterski]

Lubawa with Hajnówka... :picard1:

We can still fix it. It turns out, that Maciamo from Eupedia designed this division.

He just asked me what do I think about it:


I have designed the map of proposed genetic divisions for the Living DNA Polish Project. I did not notice this thread before. Peterski, what do you think about my proposed divisons? I did not list the Cuiavians or Kresowiaks, but I subdivided Upper and Lower Silesians (because of the higher German influence in the latter), and Masuria vs Mazovia. I added a category for Lubusz (former Brandenburg) as it did not fit elsewhere and might have higher German influence. I also think that Red Ruthenia might be distinct due to the historical Ukrainian presence. Of course we will see if the genetic clusters match those regions and the map will be redrawn based on the actual results.

I would encourage all of the Polish members who have already tested with Living DNA or another company to upload their genome to the project. If some of you haven't tested yet, you can get a discounted price on the Living DNA test if you qualify for the project (all 4 of your grand-parents must be from the same region).

If we tell him how to modify it, he will change it. So please, brainstorm now! :)

[Rethel]

We can still fix it. It turns out, that Maciamo from Eupedia designed this division.

Tell him, it is moronic. Especially region B.

How how? Normaly, according to regions.

[Peterski]

How how? Normaly, according to regions.

People will be assigned to regions based on where their grandparents were born.

So regions should be based on pre-WW2 situation. Not on modern voivodeships.

[Rethel]

People will be assigned to regions based on where their grandparents were born.

So regions should be based on pre-WW2 situation. Not on modern voivodeships.

I meant normal regions, called historical,
not current administrative division.

But this waht you presented, does not fit to anything.
especially this region B it not only ficional, but idiotic
administratively, geographically, historically and logically.

[Peterski]

So post a map showing what division you suggest. Later I will post my version.

[Rethel]

http://niezlomni.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/regiony.jpg

[Peterski]

BTW, here is a map of counties superimposed on Google Map:

https://www.google.pl/maps/@50.1688473,16.3008956,5z/data=!4m2!6m1!1s14KK-kS5WgUPntPaLwq6M_m_NTy8?hl=en

[Peterski]

I suggested the following division into 15 regions:

https://i.imgur.com/M68llFO.png

https://i.imgur.com/M68llFO.png

Compared to administrative counties in year 1900:

https://i.imgur.com/A2UP9iJ.png

https://i.imgur.com/A2UP9iJ.png

[Peterski]

Central Poland includes Sieradz and Leczyca Lands. Northern Poland includes Kuyavia, Krajna, Dobrzyn Land, Chelmno Land, Tuchola Forests, Kociewie, Powisle, Lubawa Land, Kosznajderia, Free City Danzig (Gdańsk), Żuławy (Malbork-Elbląg area).

[Userius]

I'm not used to forums. Is this a necropost?

Anyway, it's doubtful that I2 is more connected to Sarmatians than R1a. The Mongoloid influence was rare in R1 carriers back then, and most that had that admixture tended to carry C3 in the population.

As for Gorals, I'd definitely see more Balkanite ancestry than German. The German theory was postulated mainly around WW2 for Hitler to fragment the country. Although, I have ancestry from Ludzmierz and in the US people guess me as anywhere from a Swede to an Italian. Rarely does a Pole themselves guess that I'm Polish.

[Peterski]

Userius do you have a DNA test?

[Mingle]

What about Warmians? Aren't they Polonized Balts? Shouldn't they be considered their own separate subgroup? Do you know if they are genetically closer to Lithuanians or something?

Why are there two names: Mazur and Mazovian?

[Peterski]

What about Warmians? Aren't they Polonized Balts? Shouldn't they be considered their own separate subgroup? Do you know if they are genetically closer to Lithuanians or something?

They do have high input from West Balts. As do Poles from Sudovia or Suwalszczyzna (Suwałki Region).

Here is a Polish GEDmatch result from Suwałki Region in Eurogenes K15:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 35.4
2 North_Sea 23.59
3 Eastern_Euro 20.92
4 Atlantic 13.83
5 West_Med 4.29
6 Siberian 0.78
7 Sub-Saharan 0.52
8 Oceanian 0.45
9 West_Asian 0.22

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Lithuanian 4.22
2 Estonian 6.37
3 Belorussian 6.4
4 Estonian_Polish 7.17
5 Southwest_Russian 8.35
6 Polish 8.43
7 Russian_Smolensk 8.77
8 Ukrainian 9.09
9 Ukrainian_Belgorod 9.25
10 South_Polish 9.87
11 Ukrainian_Lviv 9.96
12 Kargopol_Russian 12.15
13 Erzya 13.19
14 East_Finnish 14.23
15 Finnish 14.33
16 Southwest_Finnish 16.04
17 Croatian 16.3
18 La_Brana-1 17.31
19 Hungarian 17.96
20 Moldavian 18.11

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 67.7% Lithuanian + 32.3% Estonian @ 3.33
2 90.6% Lithuanian + 9.4% North_Swedish @ 3.56
3 86.1% Lithuanian + 13.9% Finnish @ 3.57
4 92.8% Lithuanian + 7.2% West_Norwegian @ 3.58
5 91.8% Lithuanian + 8.2% Swedish @ 3.6
6 92.4% Lithuanian + 7.6% Norwegian @ 3.61
7 81.3% Lithuanian + 18.7% Ukrainian @ 3.77
8 88.2% Lithuanian + 11.8% East_Finnish @ 3.8
9 89.5% Lithuanian + 10.5% Southwest_Finnish @ 3.8
10 94% Lithuanian + 6% West_German @ 3.81
11 94.1% Lithuanian + 5.9% North_Dutch @ 3.84
12 94.9% Lithuanian + 5.1% Orcadian @ 3.84
13 84.8% Lithuanian + 15.2% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.89
14 95% Lithuanian + 5% Southwest_English @ 3.9
15 94.5% Lithuanian + 5.5% Danish @ 3.9
16 95.2% Lithuanian + 4.8% West_Scottish @ 3.94
17 95.3% Lithuanian + 4.7% Southeast_English @ 3.95
18 93% Lithuanian + 7% East_German @ 3.96
19 95.4% Lithuanian + 4.6% Irish @ 3.96
20 95.2% Lithuanian + 4.8% North_German @ 4.01

[Rethel]

Why are there two names: Mazur and Mazovian?

From the same reason why there are two names Angles and English,
Teuton and Deutsch, Frank and French, Rus, Ruski and Russian aso...
Just different form of the same word - normal in fusional languages.

Mazovian is more of the name of Mazovia, Mazur, name of the people
who created Mazowia, or just short form of the previous one - it is
not known, and never will be for certain, but they are the same.

[Userius]

What exactly is the difference between Balts and West Slavs anyway? Aside from the Finno-Ugric influence in the Baltics, it looks like Lithuanians and Poles are quite similar.

[Userius]

Userius do you have a DNA test?

I wish. That will have to come when I get a bit more of a monetary surplus. :(

I have seen some tests from around the region though, including the Ruthenian Hutsul, Boykos, and Lemkos, and even Moravian Vlachs, but they're mostly mtDNA studies, which generally don't tell that much besides that the Boykos have some strange connection with Udmurts. I've seen a few random map clusters and minor tests though. It's about what you'd expect. Quite a bit of R1a and I2, but the R1a seems to come from some even older branches than m458. I may have even seen a z93 or two. Other than that in order of importance it seems to run R1a~I2a>E-V13>J2, and also interestingly a G and a T apparently were found, but I think that included Katowice for some reason which has a long Jewish history.

[Rethel]

As for Gorals, I'd definitely see more Balkanite ancestry than German.

There is everything: Germans, Poles, Slovaks, Vlahs, even
Ruthenians, but main group was probably Germans indeed.
But it is not imortant as they exist as separate group, and
as a whole they are mix anyway. But majority of them can
be Germans, but Idk if anyone ever it tried to check. The
Bachledas are ones of many; some could be not traceable.

[Userius]

70605
70606

Which would you say I match most with in appearance?

[Mingle]

From the same reason why there are two names Angles and English,
Teuton and Deutsch, Frank and French, Rus, Ruski and Russian aso...
Just different form of the same word - normal in fusional languages.

Mazovian is more of the name of Mazovia, Mazur, name of the people
who created Mazowia, or just short form of the previous one - it is
not known, and never will be for certain, but they are the same.

I think it might be because one was occupied by Germany as part of East Prussia (Warmia-Masuria) whereas Masovia was not part of Germany so they developed a bit differently in their language. Also, one could have been an earlier form of the name.

[ALL]

Older PCA of Polish[Poles are labeled as PL[1-20] and European samples ; I'm looking to see if my Shtetl sample was included:thumb001: Can you make an update, and include some more Apricity members?
http://i.imgur.com/jHZgB.png

[ALL]

70605
70606

Which would you say I match most with in appearance?

Mortimer:)

[Userius]

Mortimer:)

I may be a noob poster, but I've lurked long enough to be offended. :p The pictures were pretty crappy but I just wanna highlight the longer than average face for a Pole.

[Peterski]

Which would you say I match most with in appearance?

You look a lot like one of my friends but you have a bit lighter hair.

[Rethel]

I think it might be because one was occupied by Germany as part of East Prussia (Warmia-Masuria) whereas Masovia was not part of Germany so they developed a bit differently in their language. Also, one could have been an earlier form of the name.

No, GerPrussians just used the second name to differenciate
them as a separate group, not only from other Mazowians
(which they did not care) but from prussian Poles.
Earlier, the region called today Mazury, was called just
"Prussian Mazowia" as Mazur it is/was just guy from the
Mazowia. Mazurian colonizers where very common not
only in Prussia, but also in Great Poland, moutanious
region, Lithuania (very very large influence) Belarus,
Ukraine, especially in Galicia, even in siberia are some
villages, which inhabitants are called Mazurs.

[ALL]

Also it would be informative to contrast ancient Polish/Czech phenotype classification. For example sub-saharan, Afro-Slavo pheno-type, have low, nasal bridge, wide nostrils and large protruding chin - african type, and or curly hair,something perhaps similar to Vestonice phenotype. Therefore we might be able to see R1b Z-2103 and R1b-L51 with Yamanaya cluster and Neaderthal genes.:thumb001: to compare with Vestonice cluster.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/95/c7/a0/95c7a0ae303308d2a806eff1e7c16740.jpg

Silesians might have perhaps more Neaderthal phenotype, with high nasal bridge, larger nose projection ,smaller chin, and bump on back of skull.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Sapiens_neanderthal_comparison.jpg

[Userius]

You look a lot like one of my friends but you have a bit lighter hair.

Up until I was around 8 years old, I had blond hair with black streaks and patches on one side.

[Userius]

Those top busts remind me of Pudzianowski.

[Karol Klačansky]

Those top busts remind me of Pudzianowski.They look nothing like pudzian. Nose is wring, brow ridge is wrong, head shape isnt round enough

Sent from my KIW-L21 using Tapatalk

[Mingle]

No, GerPrussians just used the second name to differenciate
them as a separate group, not only from other Mazowians
(which they did not care) but from prussian Poles.
Earlier, the region called today Mazury, was called just
"Prussian Mazowia" as Mazur it is/was just guy from the
Mazowia. Mazurian colonizers where very common not
only in Prussia, but also in Great Poland, moutanious
region, Lithuania (very very large influence) Belarus,
Ukraine, especially in Galicia, even in siberia are some
villages, which inhabitants are called Mazurs.

So the term Mazur was invented by Germans to differentiate them from the Prussian ones from the ones from Masovia? That seems unlikely to me because it sounds like a very Polish term.

Is the term Mazur ever used in Masovia or is it only used in Warmia-Masuria?

Is the term Masovian ever used in Warmia-Masuria?

I heard that most Kresoviaks are descended from the Poles of Ukraine, Lithuania, and Belarus. Are they of Masovian roots originally?

[Rethel]

So the term Mazur was invented

No. Was missused by them. They narrowed the meaning to the prussian ones.
It was easy, becasue rest of Poles in Prussia were not Mazurs.
Earlier, every person from Mazowia was called Mazur,
Mazurs in Mazowia, becasue of partitions, started to introdue themselves as Poles,
as they were fighting for the same cause, and later was establish Kingdom of Poland
with capital on Mazowia, and Mazowia consists the main part of it.




Is the term Mazur ever used in Masovia or is it only used in Warmia-Masuria?

Yes, through whole history.


Is the term Masovian ever used in Warmia-Masuria?

The same.


I heard that most Kresoviaks are descended from the Poles of Ukraine, Lithuania, and Belarus. Are they of Masovian roots originally?

Many of them yes, but not all.

[Peterski]

What exactly is the difference between Balts and West Slavs anyway?

All Slavs, even Belarusians, have a lot more of Neolithic Farmer admixture than Balts:

https://media.nature.com/full/nature-assets/nature/journal/v522/n7555/images/nature14317-f3.jpg

[Sandman]

So I am from Lesser Pole.:cool:

[Peterski]

I wonder where is this Neolithic admixture in Slavs from. Many Neolithic cultures were genetically similar to LBK:

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/genetics4.png

https://indo-european.eu/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/genetics4.png

Maybe Slavic Neolithic is from sources such as Globular Amphora and Trypillia:

https://i.imgur.com/E3MFI8t.png

The spread of farming in Europe:

http://d10k7sivr61qqr.cloudfront.net/content/royinterface/12/106/20150166/F1.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1

Extent of farming 6500 years ago:

https://s16.postimg.org/s3sssklx1/Farmers.png

[ALL]

Czech=Ukrainian=Polish cluster
https://images.nature.com/m685/nature-assets/ncomms/2017/170303/ncomms14615/images/ncomms14615-f6.jpg

I usually plot between triangle PL1-PL3-PL7
http://i56.tinypic.com/elefeu.png

http://i56.tinypic.com/elefeu.png

https://images.nature.com/m685/nature-assets/ncomms/2017/170303/ncomms14615/images/ncomms14615-f7.jpg

[Peterski]

Number of Poles in former Kresy according to official census data:

1a+b = North-East Poland ------ 1,663,888 Poles (1931 Polish census)

2 = South-East Poland ---------- 2,249,703 Poles (1931 Polish census)
1.2 = Soviet Belarus ------------ 97,498 Poles (1926 Soviet census)
2.2 = Soviet Ukraine ------- 476,435 Poles (1926 Soviet census)
1.3 = Lithuania ------------------ 202,026 Poles (1923 elections results)
1.4 = Latvia --------------------- 59,374 Poles (1930 Latvian census)
3 = Soviet Russia --------------- 197,827 Poles (1926 Soviet census)

TOTAL ---------------------------- 5 million people (1926-1931 data)

Distribution of ethnic Poles in Soviet Ukraine in 1926 (only rural population):

http://images70.fotosik.pl/195/7a0e34478db98157.png

http://images70.fotosik.pl/195/7a0e34478db98157.png

Soviet Ukraine in 1920-1939: http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pic%5CU%5CK%5CUkrainian%20SSR%20Map.jpg

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pic%5CU%5CK%5CUkrainian%20SSR%20Map.jpg

[ЛыSSый]

Distribution of ethnic Poles in Soviet Ukraine in 1926 (only rural population):

http://images70.fotosik.pl/195/7a0e34478db98157.png

http://images70.fotosik.pl/195/7a0e34478db98157.png

Soviet Ukraine in 1920-1939: http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pic%5CU%5CK%5CUkrainian%20SSR%20Map.jpg

http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com/pic%5CU%5CK%5CUkrainian%20SSR%20Map.jpg

request map about 15 years earlier

[Peterski]

Eastern Poland's population census of 1919 (with English and French translations):

http://dziemiela.com/personal/documents/Spis_Ludnosci_1919.pdf

It has the following data for the Ilūkste District and town of Grīva in Southern Latvia:

Poles - 53.13%
Russians - 29.25%
Latvians - 8.06%
Belarusians - 7.35%
Lithuanians - 1.45%
Jews - 0.77%

[Peterski]

Article about Vilamovians from "Poland's linguistic heritage" website:

http://www.inne-jezyki.amu.edu.pl/Frontend/Language/Details/10

Home page: http://www.inne-jezyki.amu.edu.pl/Frontend/

[Peterski]

There was an update based on my 15 regions:

https://www.livingdna.com/en-eu/one-family/research/poland

It's nice that Living DNA has updated its Polish regions. I can only add that I tried to keep the number of regions rather small. I think that 15 regions is enough. But if we wanted, we could distinguish many small sub-regions within each of these 15 regions.

Many small ethnographic sub-groups can be distinguished. For example:

Powislans (Powiślanie) - Northern Poland
Krajniaks (Krajniacy) - Northern Poland
Kuyavians (Kujawiacy) - Northern Poland
Kociewiaks (Kociewiacy) - Northern Poland
Borowiaks (Borowiacy) - Northern Poland
Dobrzyniaks (Dobrzyniacy) - Northern Poland
Chelmniaks (Chełmniacy) - Northern Poland
Mennonites (Mennonici) - Northern Poland

Podlachians (Podlasianie) - Sudovia-Podlachia
Poleshuks (Poleszucy) - Sudovia-Podlachia
Lipka Tatars (Lipkowie) - Sudovia-Podlachia
Sudovians (Suwalszczanie) - Sudovia-Podlachia
Starovers (Starowiercy) - Sudovia-Podlachia

Lachs (Lachy) - Polish Mountains
Polish Gorals* (Górale Polscy) - Polish Mountains
Spisoks (Spiszacy) - Polish Mountains
Oraviaks (Orawiacy) - Polish Mountains
Dolinians (Dolinianie) - Polish Mountains
Lemkos (Łemkowie) - Polish Mountains
Boykos (Bojkowie) - Polish Mountains
Hutsuls (Huculi) - Polish Mountains

*Polish Gorals can be further divided into smaller subgroups.

Pogorzans (Pogórzanie) - PL Mountains / Lesser PL / Red Ruthenia borders
Deaf Germans (Głuchoniemcy) - PL Mountains / Lesser PL / Red Ruthenia

Krakowiaks (Krakowiacy) - Lesser Poland
Lasowiaks (Lasowiacy) - Lesser Poland
Zaglebiaks (Zagłębiacy) - Lesser Poland
Vilamovians (Wilamowianie) - Lesser Poland
Halcnovians (Hałcnowianie) - Lesser Poland
Lasowiaks (Lasowiacy) - Lesser Poland
Sandomirians (Sandomierzacy) - Lesser Poland
Posaniaks (Posaniacy) - Lesser Poland

Lubliniaks (Lubliniacy) - Red Ruthenia
Rusyns (Rusini) - Red Ruthenia
Galicians (Galicjanie) - Red Ruthenia
Zaborowiaks (Zaborowiacy) - Red Ruthenia
Rzeszowiaks (Rzeszowiacy) - Red Ruthenia

Paluczans (Pałuczanie) - Greater Poland
Hazaks (Hazacy) - Greater Poland
Chwalimiaks (Chwalimiacy) - Greater Poland
Wielen Mazurs (Mazurzy Wieleńscy) - Greater Poland
Biskupians (Biskupianie) - Greater Poland
Kaliszaks (Kaliszacy) - Greater Poland
Poznaniaks (Poznaniacy) - Greater Poland
Tastaks (Taśtacy) - Greater Poland
Porzeczans (Porzeczanie) - Greater Poland
Szamotulans (Szamotulanie) - Greater Poland
Gostynians (Gostynianie) - Greater Poland
Hanobers (Hanobrzy) - Greater Poland
Bambers (Bambrzy) - Greater Poland

Kurpies (Kurpie) - Masovia
Varsovians (Warszawiacy) - Mazovia
Poborzans (Poborzanie) - Mazovia
Lowiczans (Łowiczanie) - Mazovia
Karaims (Karaimi) - Masovia

Silesians** (Ślązacy) - Upper Silesia
Opolans (Opolanie) - Upper Silesia
Cieszyniaks (Cieszyniacy) - Upper Silesia
Silesian Gorals (Górale Śląscy) - Upper Silesia
Walachs (Wałasi Śląscy) - Upper Silesia

Kashubians** (Kaszubi) - Pomerelia
Slovincians (Słowińcy) - Pomerelia

**Both Silesians and Kashubians can be further divided into smaller sub-groups.

Leczycans (Łęczycanie) - Central Poland
Sieradzans (Sieradzanie) - Central Poland

Mazurians (Mazurzy) - Warmia-Masuria
Warmiaks (Warmiacy) - Warmia-Masuria

Sorbs (Łużyczanie) - Lower Silesia

Oder Wends (Wendowie) - Neumark

=====

In former eastern Polish lands, we can distinguish at least 2 major groups:

North Kresowiaks (Pn. Kresowiacy)
South Kresowiaks (Pd. Kresowiacy)

=====

In addition we can distinguish major ethnic-national minorities, such as:

Germans*** (Niemcy) - settled in most regions of Poland
Polish Jews (Żydzi) - once widespread throughout Poland
Dutch (Olędrzy) - mainly west and north of Poland
Armenians (Ormianie) - mainly south and east of Poland
Scots (Szkoci) - dispersed throughout Poland
Ukrainians (Ukraińcy) - south-eastern Poland
Belarusians (Białorusini) - north-eastern Poland
Lithuanians (Litwini) - north-eastern Poland
Russians (Rosjanie) - mainly Starovers but not only
Czechs (Czesi) - including Czech Brethren refugees
Slovaks (Słowacy) - in southern Polish borderland
Hungarians (Węgrzy) - some historical settlements
Roma (Romowie) - dispersed throughout Poland

***We can distinguish many ethnographic/regional groups among East Germans.

[Peterski]

Surnames typical for Germans of Kosznajderia (Koschneiderei) region: Rhode, Panske, Senske, Rink, Pankau, Schwemin, Semrau, Latzke, Patzke, Janowitz, Wollschläger, Risop, Behrendt, Musolf, Nelke, Weinland, Papenfuss, Gersch, Brauer, Schreiber, Thiede, Theus, Gatz, Hoppe, Kuchenbecker, Scheffler, Schwanitz, Klinger, Schmelter, Warnke, Rosentreter, Isbaner, Fethke, Ruhnke, Folleher.

[Rethel]

Germans*** (Niemcy)

Dajczerzy or Dajczmankowie - like Olędrzy and Szoci.


Scots (Szkoci) - dispersed throughout Poland

Polish Scots are called Szots.


Ukrainians (Ukraińcy) - south-eastern Poland

Chochły.


Belarusians (Białorusini) - north-eastern Poland

Tutejsi (Lokals) aka Unnamed people.


Lithuanians (Litwini) - north-eastern Poland

Boćwinki aka Budrysy.


Russians (Rosjanie)

Moskale.


Czechs (Czesi) - including Czech Brethren refugees

Pepikowe Knedliczki.


Slovaks (Słowacy) - in southern Polish borderland

Transcarpathian Poles.


Hungarians (Węgrzy) - some historical settlements

Ogrs.


Roma (Romowie)

Say yet Romans... :picard2:

Just Cyganie...

p.s. weź wklej do Poldojczuf te dane nt. Dajczerów pośród Kaszubów, Kociewiaków i Kurpiów.

[Rethel]

Surnames typical for Germans of Kosznajderia (Koschneiderei) region: Rhode, Panske, Senske, Rink, Pankau, Schwemin, Semrau, Latzke, Patzke, Janowitz, Wollschläger, Risop, Behrendt, Musolf, Nelke, Weinland, Papenfuss, Gersch, Brauer, Schreiber, Thiede, Theus, Gatz, Hoppe, Kuchenbecker, Scheffler, Schwanitz, Klinger, Schmelter, Warnke, Rosentreter, Isbaner, Fethke, Ruhnke, Folleher.

Probably kajne Dojcze.

[Peterski]

Probably kajne Dojcze.

Yeah those are Slavic surnames.

Which is weird considering that Koschneiders originally came from the Osnabrück region in Lower Saxony and Westphalia. Apparently they assimilated local Slavic population, which Germanized its surnames.

[Peterski]

BTW, list of surnames of Slavic origin in Mecklenburg:

http://forum.gazeta.pl/forum/w,95025,141956230,141956230,Slowianskie_nazwiska_w _Meklemburgii.html?v=2&wv.x=1

[ЛыSSый]

But what there are so lot different subdivisions with different dialects and selfidentifications it it will be well if all of them get their own indeprendendences. I so like Poland so i will there will not only one, but at least 16 Polands, basing on quantity of woyewodstws.

[Rethel]

Kaszubów, Kociewiaków i Kurpiów.

KKK :)

[Lavrentis]

There was an update based on my 15 regions:

https://www.livingdna.com/en-eu/one-family/research/poland

It's nice that Living DNA has updated its Polish regions. I can only add that I tried to keep the number of regions rather small. I think that 15 regions is enough. But if we wanted, we could distinguish many small sub-regions within each of these 15 regions.

Many small ethnographic sub-groups can be distinguished. For example:

Powislans (Powiślanie) - Northern Poland
Krajniaks (Krajniacy) - Northern Poland
Kuyavians (Kujawiacy) - Northern Poland
Kociewiaks (Kociewiacy) - Northern Poland
Borowiaks (Borowiacy) - Northern Poland
Dobrzyniaks (Dobrzyniacy) - Northern Poland
Chelmniaks (Chełmniacy) - Northern Poland
Mennonites (Mennonici) - Northern Poland

Podlachians (Podlasianie) - Sudovia-Podlachia
Poleshuks (Poleszucy) - Sudovia-Podlachia
Lipka Tatars (Lipkowie) - Sudovia-Podlachia
Sudovians (Suwalszczanie) - Sudovia-Podlachia
Starovers (Starowiercy) - Sudovia-Podlachia

Lachs (Lachy) - Polish Mountains
Polish Gorals* (Górale Polscy) - Polish Mountains
Spisoks (Spiszacy) - Polish Mountains
Oraviaks (Orawiacy) - Polish Mountains
Dolinians (Dolinianie) - Polish Mountains
Lemkos (Łemkowie) - Polish Mountains
Boykos (Bojkowie) - Polish Mountains
Hutsuls (Huculi) - Polish Mountains

*Polish Gorals can be further divided into smaller subgroups.

Pogorzans (Pogórzanie) - PL Mountains / Lesser PL / Red Ruthenia borders
Deaf Germans (Głuchoniemcy) - PL Mountains / Lesser PL / Red Ruthenia

Krakowiaks (Krakowiacy) - Lesser Poland
Lasowiaks (Lasowiacy) - Lesser Poland
Zaglebiaks (Zagłębiacy) - Lesser Poland
Vilamovians (Wilamowianie) - Lesser Poland
Halcnovians (Hałcnowianie) - Lesser Poland
Lasowiaks (Lasowiacy) - Lesser Poland
Sandomirians (Sandomierzacy) - Lesser Poland
Posaniaks (Posaniacy) - Lesser Poland

Lubliniaks (Lubliniacy) - Red Ruthenia
Rusyns (Rusini) - Red Ruthenia
Galicians (Galicjanie) - Red Ruthenia
Zaborowiaks (Zaborowiacy) - Red Ruthenia
Rzeszowiaks (Rzeszowiacy) - Red Ruthenia

Paluczans (Pałuczanie) - Greater Poland
Hazaks (Hazacy) - Greater Poland
Chwalimiaks (Chwalimiacy) - Greater Poland
Wielen Mazurs (Mazurzy Wieleńscy) - Greater Poland
Biskupians (Biskupianie) - Greater Poland
Kaliszaks (Kaliszacy) - Greater Poland
Poznaniaks (Poznaniacy) - Greater Poland
Tastaks (Taśtacy) - Greater Poland
Porzeczans (Porzeczanie) - Greater Poland
Szamotulans (Szamotulanie) - Greater Poland
Gostynians (Gostynianie) - Greater Poland
Hanobers (Hanobrzy) - Greater Poland
Bambers (Bambrzy) - Greater Poland

Kurpies (Kurpie) - Masovia
Varsovians (Warszawiacy) - Mazovia
Poborzans (Poborzanie) - Mazovia
Lowiczans (Łowiczanie) - Mazovia
Karaims (Karaimi) - Masovia

Silesians** (Ślązacy) - Upper Silesia
Opolans (Opolanie) - Upper Silesia
Cieszyniaks (Cieszyniacy) - Upper Silesia
Silesian Gorals (Górale Śląscy) - Upper Silesia
Walachs (Wałasi Śląscy) - Upper Silesia

Kashubians** (Kaszubi) - Pomerelia
Slovincians (Słowińcy) - Pomerelia

**Both Silesians and Kashubians can be further divided into smaller sub-groups.

Leczycans (Łęczycanie) - Central Poland
Sieradzans (Sieradzanie) - Central Poland

Mazurians (Mazurzy) - Warmia-Masuria
Warmiaks (Warmiacy) - Warmia-Masuria

Sorbs (Łużyczanie) - Lower Silesia

Oder Wends (Wendowie) - Neumark

=====

In former eastern Polish lands, we can distinguish at least 2 major groups:

North Kresowiaks (Pn. Kresowiacy)
South Kresowiaks (Pd. Kresowiacy)

=====

In addition we can distinguish major ethnic-national minorities, such as:

Germans*** (Niemcy) - settled in most regions of Poland
Polish Jews (Żydzi) - once widespread throughout Poland
Dutch (Olędrzy) - mainly west and north of Poland
Armenians (Ormianie) - mainly south and east of Poland
Scots (Szkoci) - dispersed throughout Poland
Ukrainians (Ukraińcy) - south-eastern Poland
Belarusians (Białorusini) - north-eastern Poland
Lithuanians (Litwini) - north-eastern Poland
Russians (Rosjanie) - mainly Starovers but not only
Czechs (Czesi) - including Czech Brethren refugees
Slovaks (Słowacy) - in southern Polish borderland
Hungarians (Węgrzy) - some historical settlements
Roma (Romowie) - dispersed throughout Poland

***We can distinguish many ethnographic/regional groups among East Germans.

Scots in Poland? Interesting, didn’t know this


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rethel]

Scots in Poland? Interesting, didn’t know this

If they would multiply propotionaly to the grow of polish
population, they should counted at least one million here...

[Peterski]

Scots in Poland? Interesting, didn’t know this

The oldest living descendant of the Stuart dynasty is Polish:

https://www.polskieradio.pl/68/1550/Artykul/1265165,Polak-najstarszym-zyjacym-potomkiem-szkockich-Stuartow

[Rethel]

The oldest living descendant of the Stuart dynasty is Polish:

https://www.polskieradio.pl/68/1550/Artykul/1265165,Polak-najstarszym-zyjacym-potomkiem-szkockich-Stuartow

:picard2:

http://moviesroom.pl/images/0.Aktualizacja_listopad/ola/robert-the-bruce-braveheart-1000x600.jpg

[Peterski]

Jewish Poles (Jews by religion, but Poles by national identity):

https://books.google.pl/books?id=5_OXOwvjqjwC&pg=PA29&lpg=PA29&dq=1921+census+Jewish+nationality+Polish+nationali ty&source=bl&ots=Iic-ZJ0glg&sig=TFf3n3emYqyzTjkT7NFrebVPY5M&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CEAQ6AEwBmoVChMInuy6pITnxwIVBs9yCh1YBQdj#v=on epage&q&f=false

https://i.imgur.com/Eh16g0D.png

https://i.imgur.com/5ThuJKE.png

[CordedWhelp]

Resurrecting this. Nice info, Litvinski. I guess my Polish side is Kresowiak.

[CordedWhelp]

Bump. Poles and diaspora, what are your regional roots?

[Sebbo]

They do have high input from West Balts. As do Poles from Sudovia or Suwalszczyzna (Suwałki Region).

Here is a Polish GEDmatch result from Suwałki Region in Eurogenes K15:

Admix Results (sorted):

# Population Percent
1 Baltic 35.4
2 North_Sea 23.59
3 Eastern_Euro 20.92
4 Atlantic 13.83
5 West_Med 4.29
6 Siberian 0.78
7 Sub-Saharan 0.52
8 Oceanian 0.45
9 West_Asian 0.22

Single Population Sharing:

# Population (source) Distance
1 Lithuanian 4.22
2 Estonian 6.37
3 Belorussian 6.4
4 Estonian_Polish 7.17
5 Southwest_Russian 8.35
6 Polish 8.43
7 Russian_Smolensk 8.77
8 Ukrainian 9.09
9 Ukrainian_Belgorod 9.25
10 South_Polish 9.87
11 Ukrainian_Lviv 9.96
12 Kargopol_Russian 12.15
13 Erzya 13.19
14 East_Finnish 14.23
15 Finnish 14.33
16 Southwest_Finnish 16.04
17 Croatian 16.3
18 La_Brana-1 17.31
19 Hungarian 17.96
20 Moldavian 18.11

Mixed Mode Population Sharing:

# Primary Population (source) Secondary Population (source) Distance
1 67.7% Lithuanian + 32.3% Estonian @ 3.33
2 90.6% Lithuanian + 9.4% North_Swedish @ 3.56
3 86.1% Lithuanian + 13.9% Finnish @ 3.57
4 92.8% Lithuanian + 7.2% West_Norwegian @ 3.58
5 91.8% Lithuanian + 8.2% Swedish @ 3.6
6 92.4% Lithuanian + 7.6% Norwegian @ 3.61
7 81.3% Lithuanian + 18.7% Ukrainian @ 3.77
8 88.2% Lithuanian + 11.8% East_Finnish @ 3.8
9 89.5% Lithuanian + 10.5% Southwest_Finnish @ 3.8
10 94% Lithuanian + 6% West_German @ 3.81
11 94.1% Lithuanian + 5.9% North_Dutch @ 3.84
12 94.9% Lithuanian + 5.1% Orcadian @ 3.84
13 84.8% Lithuanian + 15.2% Ukrainian_Lviv @ 3.89
14 95% Lithuanian + 5% Southwest_English @ 3.9
15 94.5% Lithuanian + 5.5% Danish @ 3.9
16 95.2% Lithuanian + 4.8% West_Scottish @ 3.94
17 95.3% Lithuanian + 4.7% Southeast_English @ 3.95
18 93% Lithuanian + 7% East_German @ 3.96
19 95.4% Lithuanian + 4.6% Irish @ 3.96
20 95.2% Lithuanian + 4.8% North_German @ 4.01



Please could you post some of the K13 / K15 results that you have for Polish Masurians and Warmians and German East Prussians to demonstrate how much West Baltic ancestry they have :) ?

[Vessna]

Very interesting, thank you. According to Illustrative DNA my closest ancient sample is a Masovian pole.