Da Vinci, Catalan

[Comte Arnau]

After Columbus (Colom) and Vespucci (Despuig), Leonardo would have had Catalan origins too. Or so a recent book (http://www.abiertohastaelamanecer.ws/fp-content/images/portada.jpg) suggests. For those who hadn't enough with the Da Vinci Code... :D

The basic points of this doc, based on the book, are:
- The Da Vinci family would have given the name of Vinci to the village (not the other way round), after an old ancestor of Leonardo, Rainiero da Vinci, bought the lands of the Castello Guidi in 1254. The origin of the surname -and of other nearby villages called similarly- would be in the northern Catalan village of Vinçà (Vinciano in the Middle Ages), nowadays in French Catalonia. The French anti-Cathar Crusade would have made many Occitans and Catalans leave their towns and flee to Italian lands. (Catalans felt north/central Italy somewhat closer to them than rival Castile, as the geopolitics of the Crown of Aragon was focused eastwards and there was a Cathar/troubadour sort of shared past.)

- The heraldry coat of the Da Vinci family, showing three bars, would clearly point at its North Catalonian origin, at that time part of the Kingdom of Majorca, the flag of which had three red bars on gold background instead of the four Catalan bars.

- Some descendants of proved Catalan lineages, with three-bar coats, were strongly linked to Leonardo during his life and after him, in matters of legacy.

- Da Vinci, a Cathar himself, would have used art rather as a resource to express secretly heretic ideas than just for art's sake. Important works of him, right after his two 'lost years' that the book attributes to a journey to Barcelona (where he had family), apparently show landscapes from the Montserrat mountain and its surroundings. The Virgin of the Rocks would hint, therefore, to the Virgin of Montserrat hosted in the abbey of the Montserrat Rocks. The doc even suggests a connection between his drawing of Leda and the Swan (or goose, 'auca, oca') with the land of Oc, Occitania, and his Lady of the Cat with the land of the Cat, Catalonia. It goes as far as to suggest too a connection between the famous Mona Lisa's smile and the calm smile of Montserrat's la Moreneta, the holy Virgin of the Catalans...

While I certainly think that all these theories, even if they had some truth, are kind of useless (so no need for the Italians here to stone me, for the moment :)), at least they show some interesting things and food for thought, as well as connections for all those who love conspiracies and esoteric stuff (and for those who, like me, also used to see Montserrat in Da Vinci's mountains :p). Who knows, maybe the Columbus-Vespucci-Da Vinci connection was in part due to their 'common hidden ancestry'... :tongue

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[Tyrrhenoi]

I am sure Roman Queen (the Vampire of V) is going to love this thread :D


so no need for the Italians here to stone me, for the moment

We'll see about that ;)

[Lábaru]

I am sure Roman Queen (the Vampire of V) is going to love this thread :D



We'll see about that ;)

Catalan and Basque nationalism are as fanatical and absurd that periodically make theories to steal the historical merits of the other (usually those of other Spanish), of course nobody, except the four Taliban Supporters of independence, can give credence to these stories, only try to convince the "Talibans" that are special.

Ibex course is too smart to give credit to this history, but others ...

[Foxy]

Leonardo Da Vinci, son of ser Piero Da Vinci, a noble man from Vinci, Tuscany, not only he was Italian, but he was also noble and from Tuscany, the region of Italy with less foreign influxes in his epoque.

When in Italy there is a famous person who is half Italian half something else, we say it. For exemple Ugo Foscolo, Italian poet very famous at school, was half Italian from Dalmazia so of Venecian origins half Greek (he was born in Zante from a Greek mother, Diamanta Spathis).

Also Vespucci and Colombo were Italians (and John Cabot too, real name Giovanni Caboto). Magellano and Da Gama were Portugueses.

[Alvarado]

The origin of Cristóbal Colón is unknown.


De la patria, origen y nombre del Almirante Cristóbal Colón.

"De manera que cuan apta fue su persona y dotada de todo aquello que para cosa tan grande convenía, tanto más quiso que su patria y origen fuesen menos ciertos y conocidos".

Hernando Colón, Historia del almirante Don Cristóbal Colón.


Américo Vespucio became a naturalized Castilian in 1505.


"Doña Juana, por la gracia de Dios, (...) Por hacer bien y merced a vos Amerigo Vezpuche, florentín, acatando vuestra fidelidad é algunos vuestros buenos servicios que me habéis fecho, é espero me haréis de aquí adelante, por la presente vos hago natural destos mis reinos de Castilla y de León..."

[San Galgano]

All i have to say is:


LOL


Da Vinci was a fellow of mine, a tuscan genious as there were plenty others in that time too, any other nation or country gave so much genious to the world as Tuscany did in that time.
Leonardo Da Vinci, catalan. LOL

[Foxy]

The origin of Cristóbal Colón is unknown.




Américo Vespucio became a naturalized Castilian in 1505.

Colòn was a native brought by Colombo in Spain to work as interpreter. He adopted the surname Colòn in honour to Colombo, but CRISTOFORO COLOMBO was Italian and the Columbus' Day in the USA is the day during which Italian-Americans celebrete their origins in USA, who knows why...

[SaxonCeorl]

Even if Da Vinci's ancestors did come to Italy from Catalunya in the 13th century, wouldn't they have mixed with Italians so much that by the time of Leonardo's birth, his Catalan blood would be negligible?

[Foxy]

Even if Da Vinci's ancestors did come to Italy from Catalunya in the 13th century, wouldn't they have mixed with Italians so much that by the time of Leonardo's birth, his Catalan blood would be negligible?

Spaniards came to Italy in XVII century... -_-
In XIII the Normans came, but not in Tuscany...

[SaxonCeorl]

Spaniards came to Italy in XVII century... -_-
In XIII the Normans came, but not in Tuscany...

I'm just basing it on what Ibex said about Leo's ancestors coming to Italy in the 13th century.

[Comte Arnau]

Catalan and Basque nationalism are as fanatical and absurd that periodically make theories to steal the historical merits of the other (usually those of other Spanish), of course nobody, except the four Taliban Supporters of independence, can give credence to these stories, only try to convince the "Talibans" that are special.

Ibex course is too smart to give credit to this history, but others ...

I don't know that Jose Luis Espejo, but he doesn't seem to have the nationalist profile you mention, with that Spanish name. From his bibliography, he rather looks like one of those historians who like to search for mysterious periods and add some esoteric spice into it.


Leonardo Da Vinci, son of ser Piero Da Vinci, a noble man from Vinci, Tuscany, not only he was Italian, but he was also noble and from Tuscany, the region of Italy with less foreign influxes in his epoque.

Also Vespucci and Colombo were Italians

None of the theories is actually saying that they were Catalans by birth.


All i have to say is:


LOL


Da Vinci was a fellow of mine, a tuscan genious as there were plenty others in that time too, any other nation or country gave so much genious to the world as Tuscany did in that time.
Leonardo Da Vinci, catalan. LOL

I admit it's my fault to have written such a short sensionalistic title. According to the theory, it would be a more than two-century ancestor line. He'd be Tuscan through and through, of course, although apparently knowledgeable of his past and links with Catalonia, Occitania and Catharism.


Colòn was a native brought by Colombo in Spain to work as interpreter. He adopted the surname Colòn in honour to Colombo, but CRISTOFORO COLOMBO was Italian and the Columbus' Day in the USA is the day during which Italian-Americans celebrete their origins in USA, who knows why...

Well, I won't mention again the anachronism of considering them Italians in such a modern post-Romanticism way. But whatever his real name was, Cristoforo Colombo obviously not.


Even if Da Vinci's ancestors did come to Italy from Catalunya in the 13th century, wouldn't they have mixed with Italians so much that by the time of Leonardo's birth, his Catalan blood would be negligible?

Indeed.

[San Galgano]

- The heraldry coat of the Da Vinci family, showing three bars, would clearly point at its North Catalonian origin,


Find a connection between a drawing coat and his roots it's like to say that occitananians are from Pisa or the other way around cause they have the same flag, while as you once pointed out there have been cultural excange between the two.

Occitania:
http://www.compagniadelbirun.it/img/bandiera_occitana.jpg

Pisa:
http://www.cisv.it/viola/pisa07flag.gif

[Comte Arnau]

Spaniards came to Italy in XVII century... .

:confused:

You really apply your modern conceptions of Italy and Spain quite anachronically... How could Catalans be Spanish in the 13th century?

Btw, parts of modern Italy belonged in fact to the Crown of Aragon by the end of the 13th century...

[Ibericus]

:confused:

You really apply your modern conceptions of Italy and Spain quite anachronically... How could Catalans be Spanish in the 13th century?

Btw, parts of modern Italy belonged in fact to the Crown of Aragon by the end of the 13th century...
She said 17th century not 13th century. Anyways there weren't many spaniards at all, only a few royalty and some soldiers...

[Alvarado]

The opinion of his son, the castilian cosmographer Hernando Colón is better than yours. The exact origin of Colón is unknown.


"Por lo cual, algunos, que en cierta manera piensan oscurecer su fama, dicen que fue de Nervi; otros, que de Cugureo, y otros de Buyasco, que todos son lugares pequeños, cerca de la ciudad de Génova y en su misma ribera; y otros, que quieren engrandecerle más, dicen que era de Savona, y otros que genovés; y aun los que más le suben a la cumbre, le hacen de Plasencia, en la cual ciudad hay algunas personas honradas de su familia, y sepulturas con armas y epitafios de Colombo..."


"Considerado esto, me moví a creer que así como la mayor parte de sus cosas fueron obradas por algún misterio, así aquello que toca a la variedad de tal nombre y apellido no fue sin misterio".

[San Galgano]

:confused:

You really apply your modern conceptions of Italy and Spain quite anachronically... How could Catalans be Spanish in the 13th century?

Btw, parts of modern Italy belonged in fact to the Crown of Aragon by the end of the 13th century...

Tuscany has never been ruled by spaniards or catalans, they only supported some local nobles as the Medici family in the late 15th century.

[Falkata]

Colòn was a native brought by Colombo in Spain to work as interpreter. He adopted the surname Colòn in honour to Colombo, but CRISTOFORO COLOMBO was Italian and the Columbus' Day in the USA is the day during which Italian-Americans celebrete their origins in USA, who knows why...

zzz keep reading new things instead of being stuck your high school books. There are tons of different studies showing different theories and their origins are still being investigated by historians for a reason. If they were so sure about their origins they wouldn´t do it. But yeah, some dumb americans celebrating something that they don´t even know is the definitive proof that Colombus was italian :coffee:
If anything he would be Geonese and not italian obviously

[Comte Arnau]

The opinion of his son, the castilian cosmographer Hernando Colón is better than yours. The exact origin of Colón is unknown.

His sons were convinced that he was Genoese, the theory says it too. What is said is that Columbus wouldn't have told them the truth in order to protect them. In fact, the theory is not incompatible with the fact that he was born in Genoa. It is also a fact that, when his son travelled to Genoa in search of his relatives, he found none... :icon_ask:

[Comte Arnau]

Tuscany has never been ruled by spaniards or catalans, they only supported some local nobles as the Medici family in the late 15th century.

Er... where did I say it was?

What is said in the theory is that his ancestors would have escaped from the anti-Cathar Crusade of the 13th century. Many hid in southern Catalonia for a while, many would have also fled to Italy. It's not an illogical or weird thing, after all.

[San Galgano]

Er... where did I say it was?

What is said in the theory is that his ancestors would have escaped from the anti-Cathar Crusade of the 13th century. Many hid in southern Catalonia for a while, many would have also fled to Italy. It's not an illogical or weird thing, after all.

Yes, assuming that his family was escaping from an anti-Cathar crusade and he was catalan there would be any weird thing.
It's all to show though, and a coat of arm is not enough to show it nor some paintings, in a time were artists went forth and back all over Europe and many Da Vinci's paintings show the typical tuscan's country.

[Alvarado]

His sons were convinced that he was Genoese, the theory says it too. What is said is that Columbus wouldn't have told them the truth in order to protect them. In fact, the theory is not incompatible with the fact that he was born in Genoa. It is also a fact that, when his son travelled to Genoa in search of his relatives, he found none... :icon_ask:

His son Hernando didn't specify the origin of his father in La Historia del Almirante. There was nothing wrong with being born in Genoa if that was the case.

[Lábaru]

I don't know that Jose Luis Espejo, but he doesn't seem to have the nationalist profile you mention, with that Spanish name. From his bibliography, he rather looks like one of those historians who like to search for mysterious periods and add some esoteric spice into it.



His name no matter, Josep Lluis Carod-Rovira his real name is Castilian, José Luis Vélez Díez, and he is a icon of the nationalist in Catalonia.

http://i56.tinypic.com/34jd7dk.jpg



Su padre fue el número de la guardia civil JOSÉ LUIS VÉLEZ ALMECIJA y su madre la señora ELVIRA DIEZ CAROD. Son naturales de la provincia de Zaragoza, pero sus familiares se establecieron por todos los rincones de España, donde la saga militar de los VÉLEZ ALMECIJA se remonta a varias generaciones.

El lugar de nacimiento de los hijos, JOSÉ LUIS VÉLEZ DÍEZ (hoy conocido como JOSEP-LLUIS CAROD-ROVIRA) y de JUAN DE DIOS VÉLEZ DIEZ (hoy conocido como APELLES CAROD-ROVIRA) es desconocido, pero probable que nacieran en alguna casa cuartel de la provincia de Teruel.

[Foxy]

:confused:

You really apply your modern conceptions of Italy and Spain quite anachronically... How could Catalans be Spanish in the 13th century?

Btw, parts of modern Italy belonged in fact to the Crown of Aragon by the end of the 13th century...

Ok but you are making sofisms. For Spaniards we mean people arrived in Italy during the XVII century (also called Aragoneses, if we want to be more specific). About Spain, I dunno in which epoque the Spanish identity born, but in Italy people perceived themselves as Italians since the time of Rome, indeed the inhabitants of Italy have always been called abroad Italians or Latins, even if we were politically divided.
Geoneses are Italians indeed.

About Da Vinci, catharism existed also in Italy, especially in Northern Italy and Tuscany, but also in central Italy. Cities with a strong catharism were Florence, Milan, Mantova, Viterbo, Rimini, Orvieto, Desenzano.
In short, you could be cathar and Italian in the same time, without any Spanish origins.

And again, I have heard many strange theories. I have heard that Da Vinci was of germanic origins and the ones who supported this theory were Scandinavian dudes (not of this forum anyway) of nordicist orientation.
I have also heard afrocentric theories claiming that Italy was great becouse of its Arabic domination that spread in Italy African genes. Well, not only Arabs in Italy left vey few genetically, but the same Arabs are genetically very distant from sub-saharian Africans. According to this theory Da Vinci was great becouse of his African part.

It seems to me that people have a thing for Italy, also people who live very far, from Scandinavia to Africa.... :rolleyes:
So it is true the said that in the world there are only 2 kinds of people: The Italians and the ones who want to be Italians. :D :P

[SaxonCeorl]

Actually, you're all wrong: Leonardo Da Vinci was American. That's right. He was born in Teaneck, New Jersey.

[Foxy]

Actually, you're all wrong: Leonardo Da Vinci was American. That's right. He was born in Teaneck, New Jersey.

In New Jersey most people are of Italian origins (my father born there indeed, ahaha). So, in short, this theory is the most reliable . :thumbs up

[Aviane]

I would take these theories rather from an Italian than any other.

[Wyn]

It seems to me that people have a thing for Italy, also people who live very far, from Scandinavia to Africa.... :rolleyes:
So it is true the said that in the world there are only 2 kinds of people: The Italians and the ones who want to be Italians. :D :P

In my experience, "Germanic" is the thing to be, which I say as someone who is not overly concerned with being Germanic (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=311565). I've come across all sorts of links to Germanics/claims to being Germanic from people all over Europe (including Northern Italians who consider themselves Germanics outright). Not to mention Italian, Irish, and Iberian Odinists (on the basis that their regions were settled by Germanics over a thousand years ago, I assume) etc.

[Foxy]

In my experience, "Germanic" is the thing to be, which I say as someone who is not overly concerned with being Germanic (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=311565). I've come across all sorts of links to Germanics/claims to being Germanic from people all over Europe (including Northern Italians who consider themselves Germanics outright). Not to mention Italian, Irish, and Iberian Odinists (on the basis that their regions were settled by Germanics over a thousand years ago, I assume) etc.

Actually, Northern Italians leghists say that they are celtic, not germanic. And so do Spaniards. About Odinism, religion is religion. According to your theory, every christian would like to be Jew. Most Italian pagans are Roman pagans anyway (Via Romana agli dèi - Roman Road to Gods being the biggest group).

[SaxonCeorl]

It seems to me that people have a thing for Italy, also people who live very far, from Scandinavia to Africa.... :rolleyes: So it is true the said that in the world there are only 2 kinds of people: The Italians and the ones who want to be Italians. :D :P

Honestly, that's the main reason I left Skadi: I wanted to talk and share with all Europeans and I have a particular interest in Italy.


In my experience, "Germanic" is the thing to be, which I say as someone who is not overly concerned with being Germanic (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=311565). I've come across all sorts of links to Germanics/claims to being Germanic from people all over Europe (including Northern Italians who consider themselves Germanics outright). Not to mention Italian, Irish, and Iberian Odinists (on the basis that their regions were settled by Germanics over a thousand years ago, I assume) etc.

Well, since I'm already Germanic, I have to admire someone else, so I primarily pick the Italians :D

[Lábaru]

In my experience, "Germanic" is the thing to be, which I say as someone who is not overly concerned with being Germanic (http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?p=311565). I've come across all sorts of links to Germanics/claims to being Germanic from people all over Europe (including Northern Italians who consider themselves Germanics outright). Not to mention Italian, Irish, and Iberian Odinists (on the basis that their regions were settled by Germanics over a thousand years ago, I assume) etc.

It is similar to the English with "Anglo-Saxon"

[Wyn]

Actually, Northern Italians leghists say that they are celtic, not germanic. And so do Spaniards.

No, I've come across explicit claims to being Germanic, not Celtic.


About Odinism, religion is religion. According to your theory, every christian would like to be Jew.

Not quite. A chief claim of Odinists/Germanic neopagans in general (again, I speak from my experience) is that these are the traditional ways of their ancestors etc. Now, a Northern Italian, an Irishman, and an Iberian cannot be certain that they are descended from Lombards, Norsemen, and Goths respectively, but I have encountered Odinists, worshippers of the Germanic deity Odin, from each of these peoples.


Most Italian pagans are Roman pagans anyway (Via Romana agli dèi - Roman Road to Gods being the biggest group).

Perhaps, I can't tell you, but I'm speaking of Italian Odinists and how it fits into the Germanicophile (if I can invent a word) trend.


It is similar to the English with "Anglo-Saxon"

Sorry, but I cannot consider an Englishman (whose country name and ethnic group derives from the Angles) who identifies as an Anglo-Saxon to be in the same league as an Italian or Portuguese person who claims to be Germanic/an Odinist. They aren't even remotely similar cases.

[Lábaru]

Sorry, but I cannot consider an Englishman (whose country name and ethnic group derives from the Angles) who identifies as an Anglo-Saxon to be in the same league as an Italian or Portuguese person who claims to be Germanic/an Odinist. They aren't even remotely similar cases.

70% of english are celtics, similars to spanish, if we should believe the science of genetics, only a 25-30% are germanic, anglo-saxon.

You consider what you want, but science speaks loud and clear.

Anyway, I do not know anyone Spanish to consider himself Germanic, influence is one thing and another thing are your primary roots.

[Wyn]

70% of english are celtics, similars to spanish, if we should believe the science of genetics, only a 25-30% are germanic, anglo-saxon.


The Celts are an ethno-linguistic group.

England = Angle-land, English = Angles. The very ethnogenesis of the English arises out of the Anglo-Saxons and their settlement in Britain, which came to be called the land of the Angles. Our country, our name, and our language all stem from the landing of the Anglo-Saxons on these shores.

Anybody who claims that an English claim to being Anglo-Saxon is similar to an Italian or Iberian claim to being Germanic or Odinist respectively is living in an ideologically-driven fantasy.

[Lábaru]

The Celts are an ethno-linguistic group.

England = Angle-land, English = Angles. The very ethnogenesis of the English arises out of the Anglo-Saxons and their settlement in Britain, which came to be called the land of the Angles. Our country, our name, and our language all stem from the landing of the Anglo-Saxons on these shores.

Anybody who claims that an English claim to being Anglo-Saxon is similar to an Italian or Iberian claim to being Germanic is living in an ideologically-driven fantasy.

Yes, culturally and politically the Angles and the Saxons were imposed on most of the population of indigenous origins, that is clear, I am more interested in the origins of blood than the language or culture, I guess I think differently.

Anyway you're wrong because I do not know anyone Spanish who considers himself Germanic, as I said before, perhaps influence, but our roots, never.

[Guapo]

Actually, you're all wrong: Leonardo Da Vinci was American. That's right. He was born in Teaneck, New Jersey.

No, Wildwood, New Jersey or just Jersey Shore.

[Alvarado]

Anybody who claims that an English claim to being Anglo-Saxon is similar to an Italian or Iberian claim to being Germanic is living in an ideologically-driven fantasy.

Iberian Odinists live in a world of fantasy, they are an extremely marginal movement. Don't take them too seriously.

[Ibericus]

....
Well i've seen nordicists claiming to be descendants of Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome, I don't know what is more ridiculous..

[Wyn]

Yes, culturally and politically the Angles and the Saxons were imposed on most of the population of indigenous origins, that is clear, I am more interested in the origins of blood than the language or culture, I guess I think differently.

It is impossible to definitively prove that 70% of English people are descended from Celts and c. 30% are descended from Anglo-Saxons.

Even if it was provable, a person descended from Celts whose ancestors have for over a millenia spoken a language descended from that of the Anglo-Saxons and lives in a land named after the Anglo-Saxons would probably have more of a claim to being an Anglo-Saxon than an Italian does to being Germanic on the basis that they're from a region settled by Germanics 1,400 years ago!


Anyway you're wrong because I do not know anyone Spanish who considers himself Germanic, as I said before, perhaps influence, but our roots, never.

I've not met Spanish people who consider themselves Germanics, but Italians who consider themselves Germanics and Italian/Irish/Portuguese people who claim to be Odinists, worshippers of the Germanic deity Odin, as he was known to the Norse.

Upon reflection, I probably should not have posted:


No, I've come across explicit claims to being Germanic, not Celtic.

in response to:


Actually, Northern Italians leghists say that they are celtic, not germanic. And so do Spaniards.

as it might look as if I'd known Spaniards claiming to be Germanic. It was in response to the statement about Italians that I said that. I thought I'd made myself clear?:


Now, a Northern Italian, an Irishman, and an Iberian cannot be certain that they are descended from Lombards, Norsemen, and Goths respectively, but I have encountered Odinists, worshippers of the Germanic deity Odin, from each of these peoples.


Sorry, but I cannot consider an Englishman (whose country name and ethnic group derives from the Angles) who identifies as an Anglo-Saxon to be in the same league as an Italian or Portuguese person who claims to be Germanic/an Odinist.


I've come across all sorts of links to Germanics/claims to being Germanic from people all over Europe (including Northern Italians who consider themselves Germanics outright). Not to mention Italian, Irish, and Iberian Odinists

If I've given the impression that I've witnessed Spanish claims to being Germanic, then that was not my intention. It's Iberian Odinists that I've encountered.


Well i've seen nordicists claiming to be descendants of Ancient Greece and Ancient Rome, I don't know what is more ridiculous..

Lol, I haven't come across that, but I know of people assuming that the Romans were Nordics and so on!

Edit - I see again where I'd seemingly implied that I'd known Spanish Germanicists. Edited.

[Osweo]

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/3172/catalantroll.png

[Megrez]

I've seen someone claiming Genghis Khan and Mohammed were Nordics.

[Lábaru]

It is impossible to definitively prove that 70% of English people are descended from Celts and c. 30% are descended from Anglo-Saxons.

Well, I relied on a study from the University of Oxford, of course when I talk about Celtic is just a reference, the British Indigenous population is older than the Celtic culture.

Anyway, I guess there will be other studies of your population, no doubt, genetically, both Anglo and Saxons are the minority, but an important minority.






I've not met Spanish people who consider themselves Germanics, but Italians who consider themselves Germanics and Italian/Irish/Portuguese people who claim to be Odinists, worshippers of the Germanic deity Odin, as he was known to the Norse.


I understand, Well, I can not speak for Italian or Irish, we the Spanish accept our Gothic contribution but we call ourselves Celtiberians, mainly.

[Foxy]

Well, I am sorry that this thread in the thread born for my joke with the phrase there are only Italians and the ones who want to be Italians, but actually, as Italian, I find myself constantly defending the great Italian artists, writers, ecc. ecc. from people of various backrounds who claim that Da Vinci, Colombo, Cesare and others were not Italians.
Nordicists say that the Romans were nordics and that all finished when we were invaded by Arabs in Middle Age (well, actually Romans were mediterraneans and we were invaded by Germans in Middle Age), afrocentrists say that the Greeks brought to Italy subsaharian genes by Egypt and that we must thank blacks for the greatness of Europe, and now this.
Imagine if your country was bombed by these thesis and everyone would like the merit for something that is of your country.
Ehm...what else... Uh, I think that the Italian culture is fascinating for people who know it, but as the name says, it's Italian.
Da Vinci's fame improved thank to Dan Brown but Italian painters in general liked to spread tricks and double meanings in their works. Some Botticelli's paintings are icons of neopaganism, in particular "The Spring", but it is normally not known so all the attention shifts on other painters. Now it's the time of Da Vinci.

About Italians who say to be germanic, I have never met one of them in my life, but if you are referring to some leghists, well, I don't waste my fingers to digit an apology for them, as I have always considered them idiots.
I can only say that the last germanic domination of Italy was not the Longobardian one but the Austrian one until the XIX century and that in Northern Italy there are some communities of germanic people speaking a Cimbric dialect very similar to Bavarese, but most people, 99% of people, are Italian. Those germanic enclaves are rests of more recent migrations.

[Foxy]

http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbri_(minoranza_linguistica)

It is a linguistic minority arrived in Italy from Denmark and Germany. Cimbres invaded Italy during the II century. Normally this invasion is not studied becouse the Roman Empire was not fallen yet, so it is one of the many invasions that happened during those centuries (barbars started to invade Italy before the collapse of the Empire).
A new invasion of Cimbres, anyway, the one who left linguistic minorities in some enclaves of Northern Italy, happened during the XV century, when they created the Community of the Seven Cities.

Other germanic dialects spoken in Northern Italy are Waser, arrived on the Alpine area from Switzerland, Alemann, Bavarese and Mokenic, an own language that seems to be from the Old Southern German and that was brought here during the XIII century (mokenic is from "machen", to make, becouse the ones who spoke this language were workmen immigrated here).
Today all these languages are protected.

And to conclude there is the South Tirolese language spoken in the whole province of Bozen, the one that Svanhild would like to have back and that is also the biggest german -speaking area of Italy.

[Comte Arnau]

Ok but you are making sofisms. For Spaniards we mean people arrived in Italy during the XVII century (also called Aragoneses, if we want to be more specific).

And that is why you are so wrong in two basic aspects.
1, Italian can have a political meaning (from Italy) or a geographical one (the Italian peninsula), that's ok, but Spanish does not mean Iberian. It's not a sophism, it's a simple fact. The first king that can be considered 'Spanish' (though Hispanic would be more accurate) is Charles V, who ruled in the 16th century.
2, Aragon had Italian possesions, via conquest or marriage, already since the 13th century. So from then to 1516, the term is Aragonese. From 1516 on, Spanish. They are different terms, different concepts and different contexts.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/Imperi_de_la_Corona_d%27Arag%C3%B3.png
The Crown of Aragon in 1381.



In short, you could be cathar and Italian in the same time, without any Spanish origins.

Vinçà is northern Catalonia, nowadays in France. Applying your modern conceptions, you should say 'French origins', lol.


Well, I am sorry that this thread in the thread born for my joke with the phrase there are only Italians and the ones who want to be Italians, but actually, as Italian, I find myself constantly defending the great Italian artists, writers, ecc. ecc. from people of various backrounds who claim that Da Vinci, Colombo, Cesare and others were not Italians.

As I said, none of the Catalan theories about Columbus, Vespucci and Da Vinci deny that they were Italians. In Leonardo's case, it talks about old family ancestry. As for Columbus, it denies that he was a Genoese by ethnicity, but he could have been born in Genoa and spent his childhood there.

Personally, I find all the possibilities interesting, provided that there is something minimally serious in the theory. I've always tried my search for truths not to be blinded by armour-rplated chauvinism, but that's just me.


Imagine if your country was bombed by these thesis and everyone would like the merit for something that is of your country.

Oh, I'm so used to that, lol. (The proof is that you most likely can't tell one single famous Catalan in history :p)

And even if we Catalanized the names, we don't have any problem in admitting that people like Roger de Flor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roger_de_Flor) was a German born in Brindisi, for instance.


His name no matter, Josep Lluis Carod-Rovira his real name is Castilian, José Luis Vélez Díez, and he is a icon of the nationalist in Catalonia.


You seriously believe the hoax? Frankly, I know how distorted Meseta News are, but really, I expected something more from you.

You made me laugh with "he is a nationalist icon", really. Now that Carod was ko and the tripartite is over, I wonder what new Catalan will be your current scapegoat for all problems.


http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/3172/catalantroll.png

Big lol!

[Tyrrhenoi]

I have also heard afrocentric theories claiming that Italy was great becouse of its Arabic domination that spread in Italy African genes. Well, not only Arabs in Italy left vey few genetically, but the same Arabs are genetically very distant from sub-saharian Africans. According to this theory Da Vinci was great becouse of his African part.


In that case, Spain should be a greater country than Italy - the Berbers and Arabs (Mores) dominated Spain for a longer period than in Italy - In Italy they left in a few decenia :D

The mores are still in Spain :D

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Moren2.jpg

Mores in Altea

[Alvarado]

In that case, Spain should be a greater country than Italy

Considering the Hispanic domination in Italy, such theory makes sense.

[SaxonCeorl]

Considering the Hispanic domination in Italy, such theory makes sense.

But what about the Roman conquest of "Hispania"? ;)

[Falkata]

But what about the Roman conquest of "Hispania"? ;)

There wasn´t any Italy or Spain in those times.

[Foxy]

There wasn´t any Italy or Spain in those times.

Are you joking? :eek: It was the Romans to call Spain "Hispania" or also "Hiberia" and Italy means the land of the Italics,a preroman folk.

Roman provinces and their names:

http://www.cnvaldostano.it/Fig2.png

[Don]

Colon couldn't be italian.[/B]

If so, then he would have not had the balls required to cross the limits of finis terrae and the void to discover Americas.
To do such crazy and daring things, history has told us that are required Iberians, in particular spaniards.


About the concept of catalonia, well, it is totally provincial, marginal and incoherent one in the context we are talking about, since catalan nationalism is, as all modern sub-nationalism, based in lies and myths, unfounded pillars.

The correct term is Aragonese, don't let you be fooled by one of the heralds that live in this fantastic world with his lies that don't represent the reality of the past or present of these regions of Spain.

http://www.arteguias.com/biografia/mapareyescatolicos.gif
Where is Catalonia? Is a region of the Aragón.

http://en.academic.ru/pictures/enwiki/67/Castilla_1210.png

http://explorethemed.com/images/maps/alandaluz1160.jpg

Just lies and cultural/historical pillage from the aragonese (and valencians, balearics...) by some catalan nationalists.
...


About the romans... well, they were just parasites of greek and other's culture -well organized, but parasites-.

The name of Hispania was not made by them but phoenicians.


Así [B]spn (sphan en hebreo y arameo) significaría en fenicio "el norte", una denominación que habrían tomado los fenicios al llegar a la península Ibérica bordeando la costa africana, viéndola al norte de su ruta, por lo que i-spn-ya sería la "tierra del norte".

Por su parte, según Jesús Luis Cunchillos en su Gramática fenicia elemental (2000) que la raíz del término span es spy, que significa "forjar o batir metales". Así i-spn-ya sería la "la tierra en la que se forjan metales".5

And by the Way Iberia was, as ever, the dreamt land by invaders and the first one where these roman parasites entered and the last one to be pacified.



Readers, beware of the stealers and liars!
The study will protect you from them.

[lei.talk]

as hans f. k. günther (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_F._K._G%C3%BCnther) explains in the racial elements of european history (http://www.theapricity.com/earlson/reeh/reoehchap9b.htm) -
it is his nordic pheno-type (http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/gloss2.htm#NORDIC) that is most important.

[Tyrrhenoi]

Colon couldn't be italian.[/B]

If so, then he would have not had the balls required to cross the limits of finis terrae and the void to discover Americas.
To do such crazy and daring things, history has told us that are required Iberians, in particular spaniards.


About the [B]Romans... well, they were just parasites of greek and other's culture -well organized, but parasites-.

And by the Way Iberia was, as ever, the dreamt land by invaders and the first one where these roman parasites entered and the last one to be pacified.



:D- LoL - by these deductions - you are making yourself look like a fool again :D

Can anyone of the Spaniards keep (Christiano Perdo) Don on a leash, please?

DON: If the romans were parasites then, I think that modern Spain has taken it's place in the parasites top 100 then :D - Spain will need the EU emergency funds (EFSF liquidity support) in the near future - my friend ;) - And when Spain takes it (like they did before with other EU funds and projects to build the spanish economy) - I will be there to shove it in your face :D

That's a promiss ;) - I will torment you with it - :D

[Foxy]

Colon couldn't be italian.[/B]

If so, then he would have not had the balls required to cross the limits of finis terrae and the void to discover Americas.
To do such crazy and daring things, history has told us that are required Iberians, in particular spaniards.

This is a very scientific explaination. Thnak you, sir, for having enlightened my mind.


romans... well, they were just parasites of greek and other's culture -well organized, but parasites-.

The name of Hispania was not made by them but phoenicians.



Ahahaha, Romans freed your costs from Phoenicians -Semites-, you should only thank them, and Romans were not Greeks, but Italics of Italic culture.
Don't worry, readers are better informed than you.

[Libertas]

It's a bit rich for Spaniards to call Romans parasites when their very language derives from Latin and they stole most of Central and South America from its rightful owners and bled the natives dry.

[Falkata]

It's a bit rich for Spaniards to call Romans parasites when their very language derives from Latin and they stole most of Central and South America from its rightful owners and bled the natives dry.

What a stupid statement (as usual coming from this member)

Latin americans also speak spanish. And romans stole most of Iberia from its rightful owners and bled the natives dry too

The non-ignorants probably know the Medulas in Leon. The romans excavated tunnels and stole all the gold from them

http://www.destinoespana.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/lasmedulas4.jpg
http://img.viajescondestino.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/medulas2.jpg
http://www.ruraliberica.com/archivo/fotos/las%20medulas%204DSCN0082.JPG

[Falkata]

Ahahaha, Romans freed your costs from Phoenicians -Semites-, you should only thank them, and Romans were not Greeks, but Italics of Italic culture.
Don't worry, readers are better informed than you.

Phoenicians were merchants not conquerors

[Libertas]

So you deny that Romans gave Spain its language and much of its culture and you deny that Spaniards destroyed the Inca and Aztec empires and leeched off the indigenous population or what was left of it in Central/South America?

[Tyrrhenoi]

The non-ignorants probably know the Medulas in Leon. The romans excavated tunnels and stole all the gold from them



LOL that's because the Romans had the know-how to dig tunnels and get the stuff out :D - Iberians back then probably still were hunter-gatherers :thumb001:

The Romans made the GOLD valuable - without the romans - the gold would be worthless - they introduced a economic system, (with gold as payable good), in Europe :D

[Falkata]

LOL that's because the Romans had the know-how to dig tunnels and get the stuff out :D - Iberians back then probably still were hunter-gatherers :thumb001:


LOL

Just because the spaniards had the know how to dig the tunnels and get the stuff out :D - Amerindians back then probably still were hunter-gatherers :thumb001:

[Falkata]

So you deny that Romans gave Spain its language and much of its culture and you deny that Spaniards destroyed the Inca and Aztec empires and leeched off the indigenous population or what was left of it in Central/South America?

So you deny that Spain gave America its langauge and much of its culture and you deny that romans destroyed iberian tribes and leeched off the indigenous population or what was left in Iberia?

[Libertas]

So you deny that Spain gave America its langauge and much of its culture and you deny that romans destroyed iberian tribes and leeched off the indigenous population or what was left in Iberia?

Spain gave most of Central and South America its Roman-derived language and culture but reduced vast areas to a state much poorer than before the Conquest, while Rome brought a richer urban-based civilisation to the Iberian heartland and eventually even to the Cantabrian mountains.

[Lábaru]

It's a bit rich for Spaniards to call Romans parasites when their very language derives from Latin and they stole most of Central and South America from its rightful owners and bled the natives dry.

Yes but our 7% of the PIB not come from the mafia or thieves and killers.

[Libertas]

Yes but our 7% of the PIB not come from the mafia or thieves and killers.

Spain has its fair share of thieves and killers too.
They stole half the American continent.

[Falkata]

reduced vast areas to a state much poorer than before the Conquest.

LoL


:D

I forgot that the amerindians already had fliying cars and playstations

Oh wait, they didnt even have the wheel,ships or any other transport, they sacrificed people when the summer was too dry and they didnt know the metallurgy ...:lightbul:
I thought the myth of the Good Savage was over but it seems some people still belieave in Santa Claus

Lima

http://www.qorihallpa.com/userfiles/image/centro%20historico%20de%20lima.jpg
http://radio.rpp.com.pe/nochesdesabado/files/2009/07/catedral-de-lima.jpg

Medellin

http://www.rutainca.org/blogrutainka/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/uno6.jpg


Quito


http://lh3.ggpht.com/_jAvo9hOQ-CA/SDDiv8FfRmI/AAAAAAAADSI/aDqcZE0KwQo/View+of+La+Basilica+del+Voto+Nacional+from+Plaza+g arcia+Moreno+just+outside+the+centro+historico+in+ Quito.jpg

http://www.rodandocine.com.ar/blog/wp-content/de-banos-a-quito-087-large.jpg

Caracas

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_sOiIQQ7PUGM/SXICRJyfmhI/AAAAAAAACwY/sPLaQWO-uNE/100_1330.JPG

Mexico DF

http://www.viviendoamexico.com/wp-content/gallery/centro-historico-cd-de-mexico/p8055489.jpg

[Ibericus]

Spain has its fair share of thieves and killers too.
They stole half the American continent.
lol what an ignorant idiot you are. Before the spaniards arrived in the American continent, the different american tribes were always fighting each other, and killing and capturing each other. It was far from being peaceful. And when spaniards came in, there were american tribes who sided with spaniards. In fact it was the spaniards who brought peace and stability between all those tribes. By the way, 99% of the deaths was because of small pox and other european sickness which the americans were not prepared to, and not because of the direct killing of spaniards.

[Libertas]

So the Spaniards invented flying cars and play stations? In the 16th century?
Not even in the 21st century.
America wasn't all tribal. It had great urban cultures like the Inca and Aztec Empires with advanced agriculture. There were stunning cities like Tenochtitlan that astonished Cortes.
The Romans were pagans who lived in a heathen age who neither gave nor expected mercy while Spaniards claimed to be followers of Christ,followers of a peaceful religion.
Yet they carried out robbery and genocide (not all through disease) on a vast scale in the New World.

[Falkata]

So the Spaniards invented flying cars and play stations? In the 16th century?
Not even in the 21st century.
America wasn't all tribal. It had great urban cultures like the Inca and Aztec Empires with
advanced agriculture.
The Romans were pagans who lived in a heathen age who neither gave nor expected mercy while Spaniards claimed to be followers of Christ, followers of a peaceful religion.
They carried out robbery and genocide (not all through disease) on a vast scale in the New World.

You´re not the most brilliant person ever right?

[Libertas]

You´re not the most brilliant person ever right?

Argumentum ad hominem is about your level when your Spanish blindness and chauvinism kicks in, muchachito.

[Ibericus]

Argumentum ad hominem is about your level when your Spanish blindness and chauvinism kicks in, muchachito.
Muchachito ? that's a typical word of South-America, to add diminutives to words. Where did you learn that ? :rolleyes:

[Libertas]

Muchachito ? that's a typical word of South-America, to add diminutives to words. Where did you learn that ? :rolleyes:

How hard is it to formulate diminutives?:laugh2:

[Falkata]

How hard is it to formulate diminutives?:laugh2:

Do you mean like panchito?

[Korbis]

I have a theory that the Italian mafia is actually a product of the Catalan/Aragonese colonization of the italian peninsula. The mere fact that their influence is stronger in the former aragonese territories -half south of Italy- is quite revealing. Or separatist sicilians waving a flag strinkingly similar to the Kingdom of Aragon ancient flag....



Centuries after the fall of Rome italians did become such a sissies than the Borgias and another fellow iberians had to teach them how to earn the respect of others. Deal with it! :D

[Libertas]

I have a theory that the Italian mafia is actually a product of the Catalan/Aragonese colonization of the italian peninsula. The mere fact that their influence is stronger in the former aragonese territories -half south of Italy- is quite revealing. Or separatist sicilians waving a flag strinkingly similar to the Kingdom of Aragon ancient flag....



Centuries after the fall of Rome italians did become such a sissies than the Borgias and another fellow iberians had to teach them how to earn the respect of others. Deal with it! :D

The Sicilian Mafia was probably caused by Spanish oppression.
Spain is good at oppression...for God and gold.:):):)

[Lábaru]

My theory is that Libertad is a wanker.

[Libertas]

My theory is that Libertad is a wanker.

It's LIBERTAS.
I don't speculate about you Espanolitos.
I KNOW you are all ignorant dolts who owe your very speech and culture to ancient Rome.
Accept.:lightbul:

[SaxonCeorl]

How about this: Spain and Italy are equal. 'kay?

[Osweo]

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/3172/catalantroll.png

Damn, it appears I was too 'zoomed in'.

Let me try again.... AH! Here we are;

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6557&stc=1&d=1292539237

[San Galgano]

Colon couldn't be italian.[/B]
[/U] history has told us that are required Iberians, in particular spaniards.

:coffee:
http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/1/7/128758270860390049.jpg

[Don]

Libertas, los sudacas apestáis.

Y lo sabéis, baja calaña de siervos y lacayos.

Recordad cuales son vuestro lugar y calidades y rendid pleitesía a vuestros amos y superiores, que bien sabéis, en vuestros hondos, quiénes son.

Somos aquestos a los que detestáis por no saber volver a vuestros naturales sitios: a nuestros pies.


Firma un Cristiano Viejo, Un Español. Un señor para tí y para todos.

No olvidamos aunque no os lo recordemos.

[Comte Arnau]

About the concept of catalonia, well, it is totally provincial, marginal and incoherent one in the context we are talking about, since catalan nationalism is, as all modern sub-nationalism, based in lies and myths, unfounded pillars.

The correct term is Aragonese, don't let you be fooled by one of the heralds that live in this fantastic world with his lies that don't represent the reality of the past or present of these regions of Spain.

http://www.arteguias.com/biografia/mapareyescatolicos.gif
Where is Catalonia? Is a region of the Aragón.


Lol. You're certainly a hopeless case. Every new message is a revelation of your real knowledge.

Where is Catalonia? Catalonia is there, and it is not a 'region of Aragon' because Catalonia has NEVER belonged to the Kingdom of Aragon. Both the Catalan Counties and the Kingdom of Aragon joined into a Crown to be ruled by the same king. Do you really understand what a Crown is? Do you at all?

If the name of the Crown was that of Aragon, it was simply because Aragon was a Kingdom while Catalonia was a union of Counties. That is why the King was King of Aragon AND Count of Barcelona. It was a nominal thing, a matter of royal hierarchy. But to anyone who reads documents from the 12th, 13th and 14th centuries, it is clearly visible how both Catalans and Aragonese distinguished themselves clearly. Even so, one doesn't need to be a historian to know that, aside the nominal issue that you so stupidly and demagogically use, the real weight of the Crown was on the side of the Catalans. Demographically, commercially, politically and culturally.

Rather than Where is Catalonia, you should ask yourself Where is Spain? In those maps of the Reconquista, there's where one really sees the 6 real ethnic nations of the Iberian Peninsula.

[Aviane]

It's a bit rich for Spaniards to call Romans parasites when their very language derives from Latin and they stole most of Central and South America from its rightful owners and bled the natives dry.

Agreed, Spaniards are no better or angelic than Romans if not much much worse.


So you deny that Romans gave Spain its language and much of its culture and you deny that Spaniards destroyed the Inca and Aztec empires and leeched off the indigenous population or what was left of it in Central/South America?

For them to deny this and think that nothing has happened is delusional and very sick minded. :eek: :confused:


LOL that's because the Romans had the know-how to dig tunnels and get the stuff out :D - Iberians back then probably still were hunter-gatherers :thumb001:

The Romans made the GOLD valuable - without the romans - the gold would be worthless - they introduced a economic system, (with gold as payable good), in Europe :D

I could imagine how the Romans where like they probably in truth were very capable and knowledgable for their time.

As for these Iberians they may have been in their caves and breeding like little rats and bite their nails plus licking the hairs off their bodies in struggle for food.


Spain has its fair share of thieves and killers too.
They stole half the American continent.

It even then shows in the language of the people there today, so it's true these people like everyone else are not excluded from been killers etc. :cool:

[Comte Arnau]

As for these Iberians they may have been in their caves and breeding like little rats and bite their nails plus licking the hairs off their bodies in struggle for food.


Er... It seems that real knowledge about pre-Roman Iberians is kind of missing here... :rolleyes:

[Aviane]

Er... It seems that real knowledge about pre-Roman Iberians is kind of missing here... :rolleyes:

Oh let me guess you going to now mention that you are or where these Celtiberians or what ? :rolleyes:

[Comte Arnau]

Oh let me guess you going to now mention that you are or where these Celtiberians or what ? :rolleyes:

No. We actually passed from stinky Neanderthals to clean subjects of the Roman Empire. The whole Celto-Iberian thing is but a hoax...

[Aviane]

No. We actually passed from stinky Neanderthals to clean subjects of the Roman Empire. The whole Celto-Iberian thing is but a hoax...

Well one thing you can't deny is that without your Roman conquerors you obviously wouldn't have a language that was Romance.

[Comte Arnau]

Well one thing you can't deny is that without your Roman conquerors you obviously wouldn't have a language that was Romance.

Well, if Catalan is a Languedocian offspring entering Iberia with the Frankish incursion, then we would still have a Romance language without any Roman conquest of Iberia... :D

Spaniards and Portuguese wouldn't, that's true.

[Don]

As for these Iberians they may have been in their caves and breeding like little rats and bite their nails plus licking the hairs off their bodies in struggle for food.



No, the little rats are your parents and ancestors, not mine, gabacho hijo de puta. Ok?


Respect, son of dogs.

Respect.

[Ibericus]

Well one thing you can't deny is that without your Roman conquerors you obviously wouldn't have a language that was Romance.
We would be speaking celtic languages, which is not that bad. In the east they would speak iberian languages would be cool. Basque is ok.

[Comte Arnau]

In the east they would speak iberian languages would be cool. Basque is ok.

It would allow us to see if the Basco-Iberianist theory is correct.

[Aviane]

Well, if Catalan is a Languedocian offspring entering Iberia with the Frankish incursion, then we would still have a Romance language without any Roman conquest of Iberia... :D

Spaniards and Portuguese wouldn't, that's true.

You would still have a Romance language but it would only come with the Romans off course I mean most languages including French, Italian etc are all Roman derived.


No, the little rats are your parents and ancestors, not mine, gabacho hijo de puta. Ok?


Respect, son of dogs.

Respect.

Ooooh no need to get touchy and angry Don or shall I say Christiana. :D

[Vasconcelos]

Ah, yes, not being as advanced as the Romans of the time equals being mindless apes. Right.

I suppose your ancestors would fit in that description aswell then, unless you're Italian or Greek...but you're not.

[Comte Arnau]

Hollywood hasn't made any film about pre-roman Iberia. Ergo, it didn't exist...

[Osweo]

Hollywood hasn't made any film about pre-roman Iberia. Ergo, it didn't exist...

Man, you're LUCKY! ;)

[Lábaru]

It's LIBERTAS.
I don't speculate about you Espanolitos.
I KNOW you are all ignorant dolts who owe your very speech and culture to ancient Rome.
Accept.:lightbul:

Shut up, sudaca.

[SaxonCeorl]

http://www.crossed-flag-pins.com/Friendship-Pins/Italy/Flag-Pins-Italy-Spain.jpg

[Korbis]

Pre roman iberians were almost as advanced as greeks, Tartessos (in modern Andalucia) was one of the greatest civilizations of that time and some theories even suggest a connection with Atlantis.

Besides, we cannot speak of romans erradicating and totally replacing the "barbarian" habits but a cultural exchange between romans and natives that builded a unique culture within the empire, praised and regarded by poets and philosophers as the finest of it.

[Tyrrhenoi]

No, the little rats are your parents and ancestors, not mine, gabacho hijo de puta. Ok?

Respect, son of dogs.

Respect.

LoL Don likes to react like a black hiphop star - RESPECT MOTHERFUCKERS :D

Don, I like you very much - you are a great guy :thumb001: - he is funny isn't he ? :D

http://heroicfail.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/shit-hotel-heroic-fail.jpg

He must be an employee of S.H.I.T. :D

[San Galgano]

LoL Don likes to react like a black hiphop star - RESPECT MOTHERFUCKERS :D

Don, I like you very much - you are a great guy :thumb001: - he is funny isn't he ? :D

http://heroicfail.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/shit-hotel-heroic-fail.jpg

He must be an employee of S.H.I.T. :D

Io non so' te fratello, ma se vedo un altro paio di insinuazioni contro l'Italia e contro i nostri antenati, ti faccio vedere i fuochi d'artificio.:D

[Tyrrhenoi]

Io non so te fratello, ma se vedo un altro paio di insinuazioni contro l'Italia e contro i nostri antenati, ti faccio vedere i fuochi d'artificio.:D

Noi siamo un popolo troppo fortunato - invece sti fetusi non hanno un cazzo! Allora per sfogarsi un po - frustrati come sono - ci girano le palle a noi - perche su questo foro - I Tedeschi sono troppo forti - e gli Francesi troppo pochi -

Sangue e onore!

http://www.corbisimages.com/images/67/21C1FA61-FEC0-481B-B4DF-DE8D95C74D6B/42-17509783.jpg

[San Galgano]

Noi siamo un popolo troppo fortunato - invece sti fetusi non hanno un cazzo! Allora per sfogarsi un po - frustrati come sono - ci girano le palle a noi - perche su questo foro - I Tedeschi sono troppo forti - e gli Francesi troppo pochi -

Sangue e onore!

http://www.corbisimages.com/images/67/21C1FA61-FEC0-481B-B4DF-DE8D95C74D6B/42-17509783.jpg

Sangue e onore fratres!

P.s
Guarda cosa c'era scritto sopra una moneta di 2050 anni fa'...:D
http://italia.onwww.net/italia/monetaitalia.jpg

Capisco che non e' facile per certa gente digerire in nostri 2000 anni di storia.:D

[Wyn]

After Columbus (Colom) and Vespucci (Despuig), Leonardo would have had Catalan origins too.

How could anyone not see that this was going to spill over into another Spanish-Italian dispute? :D

[Comte Arnau]

Pre roman iberians were almost as advanced as greeks, Tartessos (in modern Andalucia) was one of the greatest civilizations of that time and some theories even suggest a connection with Atlantis.

Besides, we cannot speak of romans erradicating and totally replacing the "barbarian" habits but a cultural exchange between romans and natives that builded a unique culture within the empire, praised and regarded by poets and philosophers as the finest of it.

I agree with your second paragraph but not with the first part. Pre-Roman Iberians were not Barbarian at all, but there's no need to deny that either Romans or Greeks were more advanced in many aspects, specially in the technological ones. It is just logical, the Iberian Peninsula was simply farther away from the West Asian area, and the most advanced parts of it were precisely those in contact by sea with that area (Iberians and Tartessians).

However, of all that is said about Tartessos, we should believe just half of it. It is quite likely that what is believed by some to have been an advanced civilization was actually a sort of pacific cohabitation between Tartessians and more advanced Phoenicians, the latter inhabiting the coasts, the inland area only being of interest to them because of the mine sites.

[Comte Arnau]

How could anyone not see that this was going to spill over into another Spanish-Italian dispute? :D

Well, it was certainly not my intention. But I guess that's what happens when you're in the middle.

[Don]

Well, it was certainly not my intention. But I guess that's what happens when you're in the middle.

In the middle of what? A catalan is an spaniard.

Maybe I'm a bit lost in your schizo inner fantastic world with magic countries and stories. Crazy paralele world indeed.


About the italians, yes, you are right, we, every spaniard is envious of you and that is why we react this way and not because of your recurrent insults and provocations to us.
We like to get insulted, our reactions are only caused because we all spaniards have a dream:

To be italians (and sudacas).


[As is told in Castilla: A los tontos y a los locos hay que darles la razón.]


Now, I ask you, please, from now avoid to enter in Spaniard threads or matters, speak about spaniards in that provocative way you do and leave us alone... if you can.

We don't deserve the attention of the so high self-esteemed italians, french or sudacas.

Gracias. :)

[Comte Arnau]

In the middle of what? A catalan is an spaniard.

Catalans from Perpignan, Andorra or Alghero are certainly not Spaniards, no matter how much you insist, little Cid.

And regardless of politics, we are certainly in the middle. One doesn't have to be an ace on Geography to see that.


http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/674/apmid.png

[Tyrrhenoi]

we all spaniards have a dream: To be italians.


- Finally he admits -
:biggrin:


Now, I ask you, please, from now avoid to enter in Spaniard threads or matters, speak about spaniards in that provocative way you do and leave us alone... if you can.

We don't deserve the attention of the so high self-esteemed italians, french or sudacas.

Gracias. :)

Yeah sure - if you quit naming Columbus - Colon - and you quit interfering in historical facts - especially Italian facts ;)

- sure no problem -

[Libertas]

In the middle of what? A catalan is an spaniard.

Maybe I'm a bit lost in your schizo inner fantastic world with magic countries and stories. Crazy paralele world indeed.


About the italians, yes, you are right, we, every spaniard is envious of you and that is why we react this way and not because of your recurrent insults and provocations to us.
We like to get insulted, our reactions are only caused because we all spaniards have a dream:

To be italians (and sudacas).


[As is told in Castilla: A los tontos y a los locos hay que darles la razón.]


Now, I ask you, please, from now avoid to enter in Spaniard threads or matters, speak about spaniards in that provocative way you do and leave us alone... if you can.

We don't deserve the attention of the so high self-esteemed italians, french or sudacas.

Gracias. :)

I suppose calling Da Vinci and others Catalans (God forbid) is of no concern to Italians.:mmmm:

[Don]

Catalans from Perpignan, Andorra or Alghero are certainly not Spaniards, no matter how much you insist, little Cid.

And regardless of politics, we are certainly in the middle. One doesn't have to be an ace on Geography to see that.


http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/674/apmid.png


You are sick Ibex. Your little imperialism fantasies are delusional and ridiculous.

Most Catalans, and vast majorities of valencians, aragonese and balears will not like the idea of your dream coming true. And you know.

But hey, A los tontos y a los locos hay que darles la razón.

Yes, that mini-empire exists in real world and Ibex is the little princess of it. :D

Keep dreaming shhh... sweet dreams ;)



- Finally he admits -
:biggrin:

No need to admit it, its a fact, we dream with being a band of amariconados macarroni.




I suppose calling Da Vinci and others Catalans (God forbid) is of no concern to Italians.:mmmm:

This concernes europeans, not sudacas like you, indio sucio. Learn what is your place, parasite amerindian: out of european matters.

[Ibericus]

Catalans from Perpignan, Andorra or Alghero are certainly not Spaniards, no matter how much you insist, little Cid.

And regardless of politics, we are certainly in the middle. One doesn't have to be an ace on Geography to see that.


http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/674/apmid.png
Perpignans are french, Andorrans are andorrans, and people of Alghero are Italians. People of Andorra, and I have been there many times, want their own little country, they don't consider themselves catalans.

[Comte Arnau]

You are sick Ibex. Your little imperialism fantasies are delusional and ridiculous.

Most Catalans, and vast majorities of valencians, aragonese and balears will not like the idea of your dream coming true. And you know.

But hey, A los tontos y a los locos hay que darles la razón.

Yes, that mini-empire exists in real world and Ibex is the little princess of it. :D

Keep dreaming shhh... sweet dreams ;)

The day you have completely devastated our people, the day you have killed the last Catalan speaker, that day you'll be able to talk about delusions. Up to that day, keep that stupid wicked smile on your face and be happy with it. If you haven't been able to destroy us yet, you'll never be. What I'm afraid is that it will be we ourselves who will.

We predated Spain and we'll be there when it ceases to exist. We were, we are and we shall be. Posa't-hi fulles.

[Comte Arnau]

Perpignans are french, Andorrans are andorrans, and people of Alghero are Italians. People of Andorra, and I have been there many times, want their own little country, they don't consider themselves catalans.

Oh, so you have some knowledge of political geography and citizenship, good for you.

[Libertas]

dreams ;)







This concernes europeans, not sudacas like you, indio sucio. Learn what is your place, parasite amerindian: out of european matters.

Here you have it.
Proof of the low Spanish IQ level as well as incompetence in debate.

I use diminutives so I am Indio, you cabron y marrano (or morisco?).

I am of Lucchese origin born and living in Scotland, duh.:

[Ibericus]

Here you have it.
Proof of the low Spanish IQ level as well as incompetence in debate.

I use diminutives so I am Indio, you cabron y marrano (or morisco?).

I am of Lucchese origin born and living in Scotland, duh.:
Spain has a higher IQ than Denmark, Norway, Canada, Finland, Ireland, France, etc:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_IQ

[Libertas]

Spain has a higher IQ than Denmark, Norway, Canada, Finland, Ireland, France, etc:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_IQ

Pity Italy's IQ is higher.:p:p:p

[Don]

The day you have completely devastated our people, the day you have killed the last Catalan speaker, that day you'll be able to talk about delusions. Up to that day, keep that stupid wicked smile on your face and be happy with it. If you haven't been able to destroy us yet, you'll never be. What I'm afraid is that it will be we ourselves who will.

We predated Spain and we'll be there when it ceases to exist. We were, we are and we shall be. Posa't-hi fulles.


Estás enfermo. :tongue

[Falkata]

Are you joking? :eek: It was the Romans to call Spain "Hispania" or also "Hiberia" and Italy means the land of the Italics,a preroman folk.

Roman provinces and their names:

http://www.cnvaldostano.it/Fig2.png

Iberia was a geographycal term. The Roman Empire (not Italy) didnt fight against Spain but against different and independent iberian,celtic and celtiberian tribes. There´s a big difference

[Ibericus]

Oh, so you have some knowledge of political geography and citizenship, good for you.
That would be like saying Cubans are Spaniards because they speak Spanish. The fact that andorrans speak catalan doesn't make them catalan: They don't consider themselves catalans and they have their own state and they are proud about it.

[Falkata]

As for these Iberians they may have been in their caves and breeding like little rats and bite their nails plus licking the hairs off their bodies in struggle for food.



What´s your problem? Did a iberian fucked your mother and she loved it?

[Lábaru]

Here you have it.
Proof of the low Spanish IQ level as well as incompetence in debate.

I use diminutives so I am Indio, you cabron y marrano (or morisco?).

I am of Lucchese origin born and living in Scotland, duh.:


Nah you are a fucking sudaca.

[Foxy]

Are you joking? :eek: It was the Romans to call Spain "Hispania" or also "Hiberia" and Italy means the land of the Italics,a preroman folk.

Roman provinces and their names:

http://www.cnvaldostano.it/Fig2.png

Things you should notice:
-Romans divided Germany from France, stating that the first was settled by tribes of less progredite culture, while Gallia was basically Celtic, with a strong castal society where druids had a lot of power. They also stated that the Celts of Great Britain and Spain were different from the Celts from Gallia and Northern Italy, that were basically the same people. Indeed Romans called France Gallia and Northern Italy Gallia Cisalpina (Gallia inside the Alps) and their inhabitants Gauls, while Celtiberos where in the Hiberic Peninsula and Bretons in England and modern French Bretagne.
- Romans divided Scotland from modern England basing on the statement that Britons and Scots were very different. Scots were more "barbaric".
Romans were not idiots, on the contrary, they were very interested to meet the peoples they conquered to avoid damages later.



. The romans excavated tunnels and stole all the gold from them



Yes, they did, but at the time Romans were the only ones using a firm currency and capable of assure a firm economy. They asked peoples to pay taxes, but they used money to build things of daily importance, including WC and baths, in an age where to smell like a pig was the practise in all the rest of the world. I wish Spain made the same with natives in Southern America.
The only thing that you can blame Romans for is the war chest they used to take, but there is a reason - remembering that every people did the same.
But the reason of Romans was that to employ joblesses, Rome made a warlike politics. Joblesses could join the army and the way Rome paid them was by giving them the war chest.
Maybe it was not noble, but among the soldiers no all were Italians. Many were from the provinces. Don't forget that Rome sent in Britain a lot of Frisian mercenaries.
Blame also the Dutches then.

[Comte Arnau]

That would be like saying Cubans are Spaniards because they speak Spanish. The fact that andorrans speak catalan doesn't make them catalan: They don't consider themselves catalans and they have their own state and they are proud about it.

Geez, lo que hay que leer. What the fuck are you comparing here, really? Are you seriously comparing the compact unit of a territorially and culturally cohesive ethnic group with more than 1,000 years of history, with the history of Spaniards in Cuba? Of course Andorrans want to be politically independent, what would they win if they were one little shire more in Lleida province? I myself hope they keep on independent forever. And that Catalan continues to be their only official language.

But ethnic nations are not the same as political countries, is that really so hard to get? What does distinguish an Andorran from a Catalonian? Can you tell? There are plenty of Andorrans working in Barcelona, one would never know they are Andorrans if they don't say it. Of course Andorrans are Catalans by ethnicity, saying otherwise is just stupid, and they don't have any problem with this, I know Andorra pretty well. They are not politically Catalonians, so? Nobody is saying they are. Just like Valencians or Majorcans aren't either, but the Catalan ethnicity is common to all. No matter how much Spanish divide et impera propaganda insists on it, a lie repeated thousands of times is still a lie.

[Korbis]

Oh, so you have some knowledge of political geography and citizenship, good for you.

You could start explaining why a linguistic map -not even faithful in the zone of Valencia, where catalan is barely speaked and Vall d ´Aran where is not speaked at all- should become a political entity.

I can recall a guy called Adolf who pursued the unification of several european countries because all of them used the german language. Spoiler: it did not end well.

[Comte Arnau]

You could start explaining why a linguistic map -not even faithful in the zone of Valencia, where catalan is barely speaked and Vall d ´Aran where is not speaked at all- should become a political entity.

The fact I defend the independence of Catalonia does not mean I have to agree with all that is said by pro-independence organizations. The Vall d'Aran is not ethnically Catalan, they would make sense in a politically independent Gascon nation. So if a majority of Aranese wanted independence from Catalonia, I would have no problem, it's up to them. But I don't think they really want it, because they know that only in Catalonia their language and culture is respected, official and vigorous.


I can recall a guy called Adolf who pursued the unification of several european countries because all of them used the german language. Spoiler: it did not end good.

I'd like the Catalan Countries -notice how the plural is used in the expression- to be one single country, yes, but not by any kind of imposition. I only care now for the independence of Catalonia, not of Greater Catalonia. If Andorrans, Majorcans or Valencians want to join later, it's up to them. As you say, the same language doesn't necessarily have to mean one single political country.

[Foxy]

Austria:

Wien (ex Vindobona, "good wind")
Albing (ex camp of Legio II Italica)

Bulgaria:

Svistov (ex Novae, camp of the Legio I Italica)
Plovdiv (ex Filippopoli, "Philip's City", second biggest city of Bulgaria after Sofia)
Sofia (ex Serdica, "The city of Serdics")

France

Paris (ex Lutetia)
Marseille (ex Massilia, though it was founded by Greeks )
Aulany (ex camp of Legio XIV Gemina)

Germany and the Netherlands

Bonn (ex Bonna, camp of Legio I Germanica)
Mainz (ex Mogontiacum, "Mogon's City" - a celtic god)
Nijmegen (ex Noviomagus Batavorum)
Trier (ex Augusta Treverorum)
Augsburg (ex Augusta Vindelicum)
Koln (ex Colonia Agrippina)
Xanten (famous also for the Nibelungen, ex Castra Vetera)
Neuss (Novaesium)

Romania

Alba Iulia ( ex Apulum, camp of Legio XIII Gemina)
Turda (ex Potaissa)
Resca (ex Romula, "Little Rome")
Turcoaia (ex Troesmis, camp of Legio V Macedonica)

Spain

Barcelona (ex Colonia Augusta Faventia Paterno Barcino or simply Barcino)
Sevilla (ex Hispalis)
Tarragona (ex Colonia Iulia Urbs Triumphalis Tarrago)
Astorga (ex Asturica Augusta, camp of Legio X Gemina)

Switzerland

Windisch (ex Vindonissa, "the Windy City")

United Kingdom

London (ex Londinium, "The Far City")
Bath (ex Acquae Sulis, famous thermal centre)
York (ex Eburacum, camp of Legio II Audiutrix)
Dorchester (ex Durnovaria)
Colchester (ex Camulodunum, "Marte's Fort")
Dover (ex Portus Dubris)

[Wyn]

- Romans divided Scotland from modern England

Roman 'Britannia' was actually missing quite a bit of England.


basing on the statement that Britons and Scots were very different. Scots were more "barbaric".

This is anachronistic. The Scots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaels) don't start to settle en masse in Britain until the 5th century, when the Romans are leaving (the Scots had conducted raids from Ireland, where they originated, but they raided the western coasts of Britain generally, and Hadrian's Wall, which marked the extent of Roman control in Britain, was built to keep the Picts, who were different from the Scots, out).

[Comte Arnau]

Barcelona (ex Colonia Augusta Faventia Paterno Barcino or simply Barcino)

Tarragona (ex Colonia Iulia Urbs Triumphalis Tarrago)


They didn't really found them, but built on two already existing Iberian villages, (Barkeno, Tarrakon).

After Rome, Tarraco was certainly one of the most important cities in the Empire.

[Osweo]

Wien (ex Vindobona, "good wind")
Windisch (ex Vindonissa, "the Windy City")

London (ex Londinium, "The Far City")
Where did you find these HORRENDOUS etymologies?!
The names are all Celtic. Vindo- means WHITE. Not 'windy'!!! :eek:

Londinium is debated, but I've never seen a serious attempt to understand any element of it as 'far'. It seems that a personal name is best looked for, on the lines of Londinios.


Nijmegen (ex Noviomagus Batavorum)
i.e. 'New Field' of the Batavii tribe.

Bath (ex Aquae Sulis, famous thermal centre)
Waters of the God Sulis.

York (ex Eburacum, camp of Legio II Audiutrix)
Something like 'Yew-tree farm'.

Colchester (ex Camulodunum, "Marte's Fort")
Fort of the war-god Camulos.

Dover (ex Portus Dubris)
Simply 'waters'.

[Korbis]

The fact I defend the independence of Catalonia does not mean I have to agree with all that is said by pro-independence organizations. The Vall d'Aran is not ethnically Catalan, they would make sense in a politically independent Gascon nation. So if a majority of Aranese wanted independence from Catalonia, I would have no problem, it's up to them. But I don't think they really want it, because they know that only in Catalonia their language and culture is respected, official and vigorous.



Its a vain discussion anyway. Unless it would happen after a cruent war EU thinking heads will never accept the sovereignity of Catalonia basically because that would encourage and legitimate the other secesionist movements active in another european states, say Lega Nord, Sicily, Bretagne, Corsica, Cornwall or that crackpots of Mercia and thus deterioring european economy even more if they succeed.

If catalan identity is so weak that it only could live under the shadow of the french or the spanish, we catalans are mainly the only ones to blame. And the spanish or french don´t want to erradicate us, they do what every country do which is spread their own culture.

We had the chance to spread our own culture all across the mediterranean during our golden age, so why catalan isn´t spoken anymore in the ex-aragonese territories except for a tiny island next to Italy?

[Comte Arnau]

Where did you find these HORRENDOUS etymologies?!
The names are all Celtic. Vindo- means WHITE. Not 'windy'!!! :eek:


Lol. Those Romans... They also thought that Barcino came from the Carthaginian Hamilcar Barqa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamilcar_Barca) and his Barcid family... :D

[Ibericus]

Geez, lo que hay que leer. What the fuck are you comparing here, really? Are you seriously comparing the compact unit of a territorially and culturally cohesive ethnic group with more than 1,000 years of history, with the history of Spaniards in Cuba? Of course Andorrans want to be politically independent, what would they win if they were one little shire more in Lleida province? I myself hope they keep on independent forever. And that Catalan continues to be their only official language.

But ethnic nations are not the same as political countries, is that really so hard to get? What does distinguish an Andorran from a Catalonian? Can you tell? There are plenty of Andorrans working in Barcelona, one would never know they are Andorrans if they don't say it. Of course Andorrans are Catalans by ethnicity, saying otherwise is just stupid, and they don't have any problem with this, I know Andorra pretty well. They are not politically Catalonians, so? Nobody is saying they are. Just like Valencians or Majorcans aren't either, but the Catalan ethnicity is common to all. No matter how much Spanish divide et impera propaganda insists on it, a lie repeated thousands of times is still a lie.
You said people from Alghero are Catalans because they speak catalan, that's why I made the comparison with Cuba. Anyways, Andorrans don't consider themselves to be Catalan, despite you are forcing them to be. Also people from La Vall D'Aran they don't believe they are the same nation as Barcelona or Tarragona.

[Comte Arnau]

Its a vain discussion anyway. Unless it would happen after a cruent war EU thinking heads will never accept the sovereignity of Catalonia basically because that would encourage and legitimate the other secesionist movements active in another european states, say Lega Nord, Sicily, Bretagne, Corsica, Cornwall or that crackpots of Mercia and thus deterioring european economy even more if they succeed.

Neither all stateless nations in Europe are in a comparable situation nor are their pro-independence movements backed up by society in the same way. Serious politically well-structured movements with significant relevance can only be found in the Spanish and British kingdoms.


If catalan identity is so weak that it only could live under the shadow of the french or the spanish, we catalans are mainly the only ones to blame. And the spanish or french don´t want to erradicate us, they do what every country do which is spread their own culture.

I really can't believe that you haven't got any kind of historical perspective. Should I list the huge list of linguistic/cultural prohibitions carried out by the two State governments in both the French and Spanish Catalonias for the last three centuries? It is not a matter of 'spreading their culture', it's a conscious perfectly attested series of attempts to assimilate by force a whole ethnolinguistic group. The Spanish kings, right from the first Bourbon, have tried to do in Spain what the French did in France with non-Francian ethnicities.

Yet I concede one thing: we are the ones to blame if our language eventually disappears. Specially now that, even if still minorized, it's not prohibited.


We had the chance to spread our own culture all across the mediterranean during our golden age, so why catalan isn´t spoken anymore in the ex-aragonese territories except for a tiny island next to Italy?

Catalan was used in Naples, Sicily and Athens only at an official level. There was never an important movement of Catalans into those places -except for the case of Alghero- and so you may find some Catalanisms in their languages (specially in Sardinian, but also in Neapolitan, in the speech of some Greek sailors, etc), but people there continued to speak their native languages on a daily basis.


You said people from Alghero are Catalans because they speak catalan, that's why I made the comparison with Cuba.

L'Alguer was populated with Catalan emigrants, man. If they are not Catalans, I don't know who the fuck Catalans are.


Anyways, Andorrans don't consider themselves to be Catalan, despite you are forcing them to be.

Forcing them to be? Please, try to read well before replying. I know it takes some effort, but it's worth it.



Also people from La Vall D'Aran they don't believe they are the same nation as Barcelona or Tarragona.

I've already expressed my opinion about the Aranese. Try reading the previous comments first, I know very well they are not Catalans, even if they are Catalonian citizens.

[Don]

Ibex, sorry but...

... you are not the avatar of Cataluña.

You only represent these minorities, these complexed losers and psichotic victimists that can't deal with the reality of our western societies. I mean, can't accept their identity and their reality.

You don't represent nothing but these decadent, childish and selfcomplexed people dictator wannabes that exude their self-hate in any thing and relation they have with the others and that are seen by these healthy people as sad and bitter, and lost souls. Not even dreamers... just sick people, since their inner desires imply self negation and hate.

But you need to claim that your suffered and unaccepted identity and existence, your self deny, is shared by all those you want to.
That you are not alone in your dark and unreal nightmare and that this is shared by all you want to.

I know.


But Sadly for you and luckily for the rest of the people, that is not true.

You don't represent catalans.

You know it.

Deal with it.

You will feel better as you get close to real world.

[Comte Arnau]

Ibex, sorry but...

... you are not the avatar of Cataluña.

That's right. You, instead, represent the typical Spaniard quite well.


You only represent these minorities, these complexed losers and psichotic victimists that can't deal with the reality of our western societies. I mean, can't accept their identity and their reality.

That's also right, I've been lying about my real identity all the time, you caught me with your sharp unbeatable mind. I'm a Buddhist Guarani-speaking Maori in real life.


You don't represent catalans.


You sure do it better than me.

[Tyrrhenoi]

i.e. 'New Field' of the Batavii tribe.
.

Not entirely correct - Nij = New - Megen = Market/Plain
The romans adopted that name with Novio = new - Magius -

Veld is the Batavian name for field - Megen is a celtic name -

[Osweo]

Not entirely correct - Nij = New - Megen = Market/Plain
The romans adopted that name with Novio = new - Magius -

Veld is the Batavian name for field - Megen is a celtic name -

Magus is Celtic for 'field'. It is Maes in modern Welsh, and Mag is 'plain' in Irish. There were places called Noviomagus in Britannia too, and probably in Gallia. It is a blatantly Celtic name.

When the Germanics assumed control of the area, they reinterpreted the Romano-Celtic name. It wasn't Germanic to begin with.

In the period in question, your 'nij' and our 'new' were both still close to the Proto Germanic *newjaz, with 'field' and 'veld' being *felthuz.

[Foxy]

Where did you find these HORRENDOUS etymologies?!
The names are all Celtic. Vindo- means WHITE. Not 'windy'!!! :eek:

Londinium is debated, but I've never seen a serious attempt to understand any element of it as 'far'. It seems that a personal name is best looked for, on the lines of Londinios.


i.e. 'New Field' of the Batavii tribe.

Waters of the God Sulis.

Something like 'Yew-tree farm'.

Fort of the war-god Camulos.

Simply 'waters'.

I didn't translate the ethymology of all. In most cases I wrote the legio they guested. About Londinium, I have always heard that it means "far" and actually it was of the furthest cities from Rome.
Yes, most of the ethymologies are from Celtic in the German province and in the Brittany provice. Usually Romans put the prefix "Colonia" or "Augusta" and then the name of the tribe that settled that region.

[Lábaru]

Ibex, sorry but...

... you are not the avatar of Cataluña.

.

Of course not, is a victim of Catalan politicians, nothing more.

[Osweo]

I didn't translate the ethymology of all. In most cases I wrote the legio they guested. About Londinium, I have always heard that it means "far" and actually it was of the furthest cities from Rome.


Never heard it!

I'll quote the Swedish scholar Eilert Ekwall from 1935;

********************
London

[Londinium 115 - 17 Tacitus, 4 Itinerario Antonina, Londinion c 150 Ptolemy, Lundin(i)um Ammianus Marcellinus, Lundonia c 730 Bede, Lundenburg 457 ff. Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, (on) Lundenne 839, (on) Lundene 962 ASC, (in) Lundenne, Lundenceaster c 890 Old English Bede, Lundres 12th Century Fantosme, Lundin 1205 Lay].

Londinium is no doubt a derivative of a stem *londo- 'wild, bold', found in Old Irish lond 'wild'. THe immediate base may be a personal name Londinos or a tribal name formed from the adjective.
*********************

[Comte Arnau]

Of course not, is a victim of Catalan politicians, nothing more.

Of course! Specially of that devil, Carod Rovira. Sorry, López Méndez... or how was it?

Life's good in the cavern?

[Lábaru]

Of course! Specially of that devil, Carod Rovira. Sorry, López Méndez... or how was it?

Life's good in the cavern?

José Luis Vélez Díez the Catalan political leader has Castilian surnames and origins :) enjoy.

This is a true catalan for you.

http://cdn8.vozbcn.com/figura/2009/01/20090110cobradorcatala2.jpg

Integrado e independentista.

[Comte Arnau]

Sure!

What nobody knows yet is that the Spanish president's real name is Josep Lluís Rovira Sabater. He already revealed that he's a Barça fan, but he doesn't say his real name because he'd lose voters if people knew that, obviously.

[Lábaru]

Sure!

What nobody knows yet is that the Spanish president's real name is Josep Lluís Rovira Sabater. He already revealed that he's a Barça fan, but he doesn't say his real name because he'd lose voters if people knew that, obviously.

yes, exactly, the name was changed to manipulate people who are like you.

[Comte Arnau]

yes, exactly, the name was changed to manipulate people who are like you.

Of course. I'm so manipulated that understanding the virtues of belonging to the Spanish nation is far beyond my mental abilities, I'm sorry. You know, we Catalans are an inferior race.

[Alvarado]

- Iberians back then probably still were hunter-gatherers

About how to deal with hunter-gatherers, you must know the opinion of a great gobernador de Milán: "Estos italianos, aunque no sean indios, hay que tratarles como tales".




As for these Iberians they may have been in their caves and breeding like little rats and bite their nails plus licking the hairs off their bodies in struggle for food.

Your ancestors were the lowest scum on earth.



Gauls Sold Into Roman Slavery For Wine


The distribution of Roman wine amphoras in Gaul has led to the belief that the Gauls sold their own people into slavery in the late second and first centuries B.C. in exchange for wine. In this way, possibly as many as 15,000 free Celts became slaves each year so that their families might indulge. [p.22 Slavery and Rebellion in the Roman World 140 B.C. - 70 B.C., by Keith R. Bradley.]

[Falkata]

Yes, they did, but at the time Romans were the only ones using a firm currency and capable of assure a firm economy. They asked peoples to pay taxes, but they used money to build things of daily importance, including WC and baths, in an age where to smell like a pig was the practise in all the rest of the world. I wish Spain made the same with natives in Southern America.
.

They did the same . But since you´re a total ignorant about the topic your opinion is useless

[Tyrrhenoi]

About how to deal with hunter-gatherers, you must know the opinion of a great gobernador de Milán: "Estos italianos, aunque no sean indios, hay que tratarles como tales".

LOL - that's why you needed Italian generals and soldiers to reconquer the Netherlands - LOL - Spinola fought honorably (in contrast to all Spaniards, who tortured the Dutch people in an attempt for victory).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Michiel_Jansz_van_Mierevelt_-_Ambrogio_Spinola.jpg/432px-Michiel_Jansz_van_Mierevelt_-_Ambrogio_Spinola.jpg
Ambrogio Spinola

That's how the Dutch think of the Spanish people - we treat you like clowns and garçons to entertain us when we stay for the hollydays in Spain - ( with the Catalans, we Dutchmen have the greatest sympaties ) - so Ibex :thumb001:

[Foxy]

Tyrrenhoi, are you still answering them? I congratulate with you for your perseverance. But when a person says that Italians must be treaten like Indios in a thread that says that one of the most famouse Italians was Spanish... Well... coff coff... I feel really embarassed for them.
About Ibex, I agree with you.

[Don]

Spinola, an exception of italians who was respected by spaniards, the owners of the world.

He saw himself as a Spaniard and not italian. :( Study.

After all, spaniards respected him, and we, in history never valued positively the italians in the matters of war and honor since they are and were cowards, bad warriors and worst caballeros. Fact.

In our Tercios Wars they protected in general secondary points of back sides of the battle. Study.

The other european troops (germans, irish, portuguese) that foght with the spaniards were in most important and dangerous positions in many times even in the same position of the spaniards, that was ever in the core of battle. Study.

History facts.


Macarroni. Study.

Your ignorance is almost as ridiculous as your fame.

And its nice that the catalans are nice for you 2, (if you were more inteligent you would specify "the independentist or anti-spanish catalans", ;)) because most catalans love their spanish identity and see you, italians, as the rest of spaniards, and world, as a band of babosos amariconados macarroni.

Yes traits shared with the indios and moors.

But this is not new... our ancestors valued already you as the primo tonto, the idiot of the "family" (euro-catholic) in wich we were the elder responsible brother of the family, as we proved in european battlefields, for centuries or decisive battles for the survival of Europe like Lepanto, don't doubting to sacrifice our lives.


But rats don't value or respect these matters of honor and glory and sacrifice,

eh Macarroni?



You respect more a blond hair that you don't have, yes? :)

Ridículos desgraciados.


I am sure that, when the time of defending our homeland comes again, what will be the role played by you and wich one played by us. As ever was. Again.

http://eltamiz.com/elcedazo/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/barco-que-se-hunde.jpg
Italians defending Europe.

http://change-production.s3.amazonaws.com/photos/wordpress_copies/italian-immigrants-300x264.jpg
http://www.aspeers.com/system/files/u1/fig_2_plain.jpg
http://images.asc.ohio-state.edu/is/image/eHistory/mmh/doc_immigration/Intro.JPG?qlt=100&wid=450&fmt=jpg

http://digilander.libero.it/scuolafontaneto/oltre_i_confini/images/emigrazione1.jpg

http://www.swissinfo.ch/media/cms/images/swissinfo/2003/10/sriimg20031014_4338170_0.jpg


Cobardes macarroni del mal vivir .

[Korbis]

Tyrrenhoi, are you still answering them? I congratulate with you for your perseverance. But when a person says that Italians must be treaten like Indios in a thread that says that one of the most famouse Italians was Spanish... Well... coff coff... I feel really embarassed for them.
About Ibex, I agree with you.


In what? he is the one who suggested that some of most famous italians were catalans.

The theory isn´t originally of him but you get the idea.

And just so you know I think Don is blowing the subject out of proportion and flaming without justification.

[Foxy]

@Don: About Cavalry, the first Galateo, the Book of the Good Manners, was written in Italy by Giovanny Della Casa (an other Tuscan... San Galgano will have a heart attack for all his -merited- pride :thumb001: ).
And still about Cavalry, it born in its noble and moral version after a great pressure of the Church, that tried to educate the younger nobles to use their strenght and militar knowledges for an high ideal. Most of the cavalry orders were French, German, Italian and English, so what the hell are you speaking about?

[Foxy]

In what? he is the one who suggested that some of most famous italians were catalans.

The theory isn´t originally of him but you get the idea.

And just so you know I think Don is blowing the subject out of proportion and flaming without justification.

I don't support what Ibex wrote but his manners.

[Tyrrhenoi]

Spinola, an exception of italians who was respected by spaniards, the owners of the world.

He saw himself as a Spaniard and not italian. :( Study.


I don't like to converse in this matter - you see - I am too reputable to degrade myself in your language level -

I won't be told to study - by a Spanish peasant - who only looks at the 15 minutes of fame - in which Spain has been in -

By the way: Spinoza never saw himself as a Spaniard you deficent ignorant! He was a Italian aristocrate! - his country (the republic of Genoa) - was a protectorate of Spain - so in the Military - he became matter of course under Spanish command!

He had an Italian wife - Italian childgren - and he died in ITALIA. His motivation to fight with the spanish, wasn't even loyalty to the Spanish king - but to safe his personal property in Holland. :D

So go ask your mom (I am sure you still live with you parent's :D) - if she will make some maccaroni for you - :thumb001:

[Falkata]

That's how the Dutch think of the Spanish people - we treat you like clowns and garçons to entertain us when we stay for the hollydays in Spain - ( with the Catalans, we Dutchmen have the greatest sympaties ) - so Ibex :thumb001:

mm not really. Most of your dutch low class tourist can´t tell the regional differences of Spain. Everything is about paella, bullfighting and mexican hats
Anyway, spaniards only go to Netherlands to fuck with your women and smoke your marihuana so the situation is not that different.

[Eldritch]

Thread moved to Big Fight. Continue at your own risk.

[Don]

Donde las dan, las toman.

[Don]

mm not really. Most of your dutch low class tourist can´t tell the regional differences of Spain. Everything is about paella, bullfighting and mexican hats
Anyway, spaniards only go to Netherlands to fuck your women and smoke your marihuana so the situation is not that different.

He isn't even dutch but a macarroni parasite to them.

...

Eldritch, those who tell that my SACRED, ADMIRED and WORSHIPPED ancestors are louse eating rats, lose ad infinitum any respect from me.

I accept any risk derived from defending the honor of my blood and my old ones.

[1810-2010]

hmm... interesting discussion I missed.
This is a new one, so :) they first wanted to make him half jew, half arab, half azeri by his mother side, now they want to tint him with a catalonian ancestry by his father side..... Whatever Leonardo or his family's origins might jhave been it was not his origin or his ADN hich determined his genious mind and skills but the specialcontext and conditions that only the italian rennaissance could offer to him (only germany might have offered similar conditions to him on that epoch) : if the family of his father (supposing that this is true) might have stayed in Catalonya or if his mother had not been brought to italy (supposing that indeed she was an imported slave) Leonardo the genious would had never existed. Even many of his inventions have been inspired by those of two generations of Tuscan engeneers that preceeded him: just search on Google valturio, Guido de Vigevanno, taccola or Francesco di Giorgio Martini and you will rcognize many machines designed later by Leonardo

(Francesco di Giorgio Martini in charge under lodovico Sforza of building the Duomo of Milan,and he employed Leonardo as apprentice for a time: Leonardo studyied his works and treasured Di giorgio Martini's books)

[Libertas]

Da Vinci, Tuscan

[1810-2010]

Da Vinci, Tuscan

Yes,and I really do not believe this speculation from the last 10 years that his mother might have been a slave or a servant.
let's recapitulate facts: in 90% of cases illegitimate children done with servant or slaves were given away, even among wealthy families (whose men used to do lot of illegitimate children with servants).
Leoanrdo's father adopted him and moreover, Leonardo's grandfather himself has arranged to Leonardo's mother a marriage with a wealthy man from Pistoia.

All the family of Leonardo's father seem to have get involved i nthe matter. Do you think a wealthy family of the time would have taken such care for a servant, a slave or even a epasant as tradition has it? This lloks like if they were trying to avoid a scandal ... so my think is that Leonardo's mother was from a wealthy family (but not from Firenze) who had a love with ser piero da vinci. Why did he not marry her?becasue his father (L. grandpa) had already arranged a marriage with a florentine woman. At the time Florentines had to marry florentines only, and it was not a recommendation bbut a rule

[Rudel]

- Da Vinci, a Cathar himself, would have used art rather as a resource to express secretly heretic ideas than just for art's sake. Important works of him, right after his two 'lost years' that the book attributes to a journey to Barcelona (where he had family), apparently show landscapes from the Montserrat mountain and its surroundings. The Virgin of the Rocks would hint, therefore, to the Virgin of Montserrat hosted in the abbey of the Montserrat Rocks. The doc even suggests a connection between his drawing of Leda and the Swan (or goose, 'auca, oca') with the land of Oc, Occitania, and his Lady of the Cat with the land of the Cat, Catalonia. It goes as far as to suggest too a connection between the famous Mona Lisa's smile and the calm smile of Montserrat's la Moreneta, the holy Virgin of the Catalans...
:loco::loco::loco::loco::loco:

EVERYONE IS CATALAN. CHARLEMAGNE JE GERONA.


Find a connection between a drawing coat and his roots it's like to say that occitananians are from Pisa or the other way around cause they have the same flag, while as you once pointed out there have been cultural excange between the two.

Occitania:
http://www.compagniadelbirun.it/img/bandiera_occitana.jpg

There is no such thing as "Occitania", and that's the arms of the County of Toulouse not of some nation.

[Mn The Loki TA Son]

lol what an ignorant idiot you are. Before the spaniards arrived in the American continent, the different american tribes were always fighting each other, and killing and capturing each other. It was far from being peaceful. And when spaniards came in, there were american tribes who sided with spaniards. In fact it was the spaniards who brought peace and stability between all those tribes. By the way, 99% of the deaths was because of small pox and other european sickness which the americans were not prepared to, and not because of the direct killing of spaniards.

That. ^



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-3E9aCXsA6E

[BarcelonaAtlantis]

Catalan and Basque nationalism are as fanatical and absurd that periodically make theories to steal the historical merits of the other (usually those of other Spanish), of course nobody, except the four Taliban Supporters of independence, can give credence to these stories, only try to convince the "Talibans" that are special.

Ibex course is too smart to give credit to this history, but others ...

You shameless jew accusing the basques and catalans of stealing historical merits when its you pseudo spaniards the ones who stole our history and identity.The educated know the truth and you are going to get destroyed by God very soon.

Divine justice.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Eud98FdNvs

[BarcelonaAtlantis]

All i have to say is:


LOL


Da Vinci was a fellow of mine, a tuscan genious as there were plenty others in that time too, any other nation or country gave so much genious to the world as Tuscany did in that time.
Leonardo Da Vinci, catalan. LOL

Another shady glory hunter.We can prove who we are, schooled and insignificant fool.

[BarcelonaAtlantis]

"The leaders of the European explorers like Columbus knew the truth, however, because of their secret society background. The corresponding stories and customs on both sides of the Atlantic included the virgin birth, crucifixion, circumcision, and the Great Flood. The similarities were so striking, the Christian priests sought to keep this knowledge quiet for fear of undermining their "unique" religion. The key Central American deity, Quetzalcoatl, was Jesus under another name long before the Christian religion waded ashore with Columbus and Cortes.

Quetzalcoatl was born to a virgin mother, fasted for 40 days, was tempted by their version of Satan, and left promising to return in a second coming. Indeed, when Cortes(jew=edomite/pharisee), the Spanish architect of native genocide, landed there in the years after Columbus, he was treated as a god because, with his European features, he was considered to be the return of Quetzalcoatl. Something similar happened in Africa when the white Europeans arrived and the native people believed they were the return of the "Nordic" extraterrestrial beings of then legends.

Cortes was obviously aware of the Quetzalcoatl story because he landed near the point the legend said the deity would return and he wore a plumed hat in line with Quetzalcoatl's title of the "Plumed Serpent". Cortes even arrived in 1519, the time the native people believed that Quetzalcoatl would come back. Just one example of how easy it is to manipulate people through their beliefs.

The travels of the Aryan Sumerians(Basques/Catalans=Atlanteans) and their earlier "Golden Age" ancestors also account for the "mystery" of the countless legends in the Americas of the "white gods" who came from the sea bringing great knowledge and civilization. There was once a race of white men in Central-South America who wore beards and looked like Phoenicians" Lawrence Augustine Waddell

"Lawrence Augustine Waddell, better known as L.A., is a forgotten and unacknowledged genius who lived from 1854 to 1938. He was a Scot who graduated from the University of Glasgow with the highest honors and went on to be professor of chemistry and pathology at the Calcutta Medical College in India.

His highly decorated military career as a medical officer led him to travel widely across the Near and Far East and this fuelled his passion to uncover the truth of ancient history. He became a fellow of the Royal Anthropological Institute and produced many brilliant books and papers as he pieced together the evidence that demolished the official version of history.

In the first 38 years of the last century, Waddell proved that the Sumer, Egypt, and Indus Valley cultures were the same empire ruled by the same leader (a fact very significant to the Christian story). But official history still says they were not connected and this is taught in schools and universities to this day. Waddell proved that this Sumer Empire was also established in the British Isles and Ireland, and introduced the same religious and cultural themes there. This was the inherited knowledge later administered by the Druids, successors in Europe to the Atlantean/Lemurian Mystery school priests.

These rulers of the Sumer Empire, he established, were what I am calling in this book the white "Nordic" race, the blue-eyed blonds. What Waddell did not realize, of course, is that these bloodlines were of extraterrestrial origin and that their ruling bloodlines had interbred with a reptilian race to produce hybrid DNA. This is why these outwardly white bloodlines were symbolized by terms like the Dragon Kings"


The sumer empire was the goth phoenicians empire(basques/catalans)

[Ianus]

My reaction to this topic
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/mlp/images/4/4a/Dolls_Laughing.gif

[BarcelonaAtlantis]

My reaction to this topic
http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/mlp/images/4/4a/Dolls_Laughing.gif

You shady glory hunter arent going to admit the truth.Bring me a pizza,santino marella.

[BarcelonaAtlantis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWudBCYO8ZE

"The basques descend from the Trojan branch of the Thracians, who after the sacking of Troy, fled into parts of Europe, the vicinity of Rome, for one, where they were instrumental in the founding of the city" Researcher and geneticist Tim Osterholm.

"Roman legend states that Aeneas, founder of the Roman race, was a prince of Troy who was forced to flee that city. Rome's founder, Romulus, had a latinized Etruscan name. The Etruscans dominated central Italy, and had already founded many cities, having arrived some 500 years earlier after leaving the city of Troy. The Romans called Etruscans the Tusci, and Tuscany still bears the name. The Etruscan language, once thought lost, is still spoken by the Basques, called Euskara. The first two centuries of Rome's growth was dominated by the Etruscans"

"In 1920, H. G. Wells referred to the original Mediterranean race as the true Iberian race(basque race)and that the people that most purely represented the racial stock of the Iberian race was the Basques" He was right.

Late Palaeolithic (to 8,000 BC)
• Homo sapiens sapiens - current type of man
• Art (decoration of caves, bones and stones)
• Evolution towards the Basque Type(the white man) begins
• Homo sapiens sapiens soon divides into the racial groups which now inhabit the earth (white, yellow, black). Each group becomes the origin of the races which we now distinguish. One of them, Cro-Magnon man, evolved indigenously into the Basque group.

• Cave of Urtiaga (Deba)- final magdalen level (end of the late Palaeolithic age) & Cro-Magnon type cranium beginning to evolve into the Basque cranium. Azilian level (beginning of Mesolithic age) intermediary crania, between Cro-Magnon and Basque. The crania of the Eneolithic age are clearly Basque.

"The History and Geography of Human Genes" (Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Paolo Menozzi and Alberto Piazza), divides humanity into four major ethnic regions, African (Khoisan), Caucasoids (Basque), Mongoloids and Australians (Aborigine)

Etruscans=goth phoenicians=venetians=true iberians=basques and catalans aka the atlanteans/thracians/scythians/trojans/patricians/true romans/true ancient greeks/true aryans/true germanics/celts etc

Jealous imposters your days are numbered.

[BarcelonaAtlantis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpuE7wCLjrk

[BarcelonaAtlantis]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRDlmQer6Dw

You are done motherfuckers.