Gedrosian Admixture as in Pakistanis

[GiCa]

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GBrcUN8BSyM/WaC1QFUuhgI/AAAAAAAACWM/R7oV-97IPR4GvXKzccJHvNteefHDjJEygCLcBGAs/s1600/Gedrosia.gif

[GiCa]

approximately above 60% Gedrosian in Pakistanis
https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-JEdzmt3M9wY/WZtjo6P0h3I/AAAAAAAACSM/lneZt1ZYx5kAOS_OWQVWnmk-4HPwYijJgCLcBGAs/s1600/CricketPakistan8m.jpeghttps://4.bp.blogspot.com/-LnTI7oANYTQ/WZtxHxRpm2I/AAAAAAAACSo/rZ8Gc1i3KvkZGJiItqF25ltYrc3dnY3eACLcBGAs/s1600/CricketPakistan8f.jpeg

approximately around 30% in Indians
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-JpmPzkX4UDQ/WZwjgTkAZmI/AAAAAAAACS4/Imk38a2OR642u9NHp90MRWVK3c-45y-1gCLcBGAs/s1600/CricketIndia8m.jpeghttps://1.bp.blogspot.com/-M8F6ITdKY6g/WZwr4ZL8uzI/AAAAAAAACTI/Z-zkHYfc-ZEg6yhhDwo-9QCfrXZ65ibvgCLcBGAs/s1600/CricketIndia8f.jpeg

approximately around 30% in Bengalis
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0fcVf4cStAc/WZteARkxZDI/AAAAAAAACR8/wVEAywBNp9waDn9YgjkgWrZnNggyJ2VTwCLcBGAs/s1600/CricketBangladesh8m.jpeg

Iranians 30%
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-3it8yncN70w/U5N3YnBui7I/AAAAAAAAA2c/LWXLEk0I_sg/s1600/iran16.jpeg

Armenians 16%
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-0IsLGYL0mmM/Vhrjy8TEwzI/AAAAAAAAA-Y/ztmmDPSu_hE/s1600/armenia16.jpg

Georgians 16%
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-vy86qfjSPg0/WfeWAV1SaaI/AAAAAAAAC_U/XR1RPJtYk1EeJXzkrPr8O7x8aW70iXOxgCLcBGAs/s1600/SoccerGeorgia32.jpg

Turkish 13,4%
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-HSKn67QBdLQ/T3JPMYr0ELI/AAAAAAAAAnk/T46N4cGtpnk/s1600/turkey32.jpeghttps://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gWVO8dNlZI8/WSVonF4k7cI/AAAAAAAACAg/KBwYV_IweAwdftFivejD6PUTX4o4oifRACLcB/s1600/VolleyballTurkey8f.jpeg

Irish 11%
https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dN5cL5FK2Ro/WiRwrQSKbfI/AAAAAAAADRg/cSQ3-8xzG9g1znGoOv9PPPDMShfIqIbnACLcBGAs/s1600/Ireland.jpg

British 10%
https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-ZnQ9nE0ytmE/Whdl5HWqjKI/AAAAAAAADM0/sR28T938_ws6vL0CV4Eutmsl_o8ronk3gCLcBGAs/s1600/England.jpg

[Hadouken]

you can not take pakistani pheno/phenos and equate it with the gedrosia component because pakistanis score other things too . as you see they are 60% gedrosia but 40% other stuff such as high ASI , some east/northeast european , some minor neolithic etc.

it is actually hard to make such comparisons for any component

[lameduck]

Classic Gedrosia look , Pak Baloch actor

http://www.aajpk.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/nadia-khan-show-29-january-2016.jpg
http://pakistani.pk/uploads/reviews/photos/original/58/d1/17/ayub-khoso-photo-05-94-1441493104.jpg

[Hadouken]

Classic Gedrosia look , Pak Baloch actor

http://www.aajpk.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/nadia-khan-show-29-january-2016.jpg
http://pakistani.pk/uploads/reviews/photos/original/58/d1/17/ayub-khoso-photo-05-94-1441493104.jpg

yes I think those would be close

what about this baloch model

https://www.google.de/search?q=Hasnain+Lehri&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZjYbQzoPZAhUC6qQKHWNyCHoQ_AUICigB&biw=1120&bih=597#imgrc=cDbQZS20uiU2wM:

[lameduck]

you can not take pakistani pheno/phenos and equate it with the gedrosia component because pakistanis score other things too . as you see they are 60% gedrosia but 40% other stuff such as high ASI , some east/northeast european , some minor neolithic etc.

it is actually hard to make such comparisons for any component

also cricket team morph isnt completely representative of Gedrosia rich phenotype since some players are from Low castes/migrant communities etc

[Hadouken]

also cricket team morph isnt completely representative of Gedrosia rich phenotype since some players are from Low castes/migrant communities etc

check my last post with the model guy

[lameduck]

yes I think those would be close

what about this baloch model

https://www.google.de/search?q=Hasnain+Lehri&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZjYbQzoPZAhUC6qQKHWNyCHoQ_AUICigB&biw=1120&bih=597#imgrc=cDbQZS20uiU2wM:

yeah he too

[Hadouken]

yeah he too

another one

baloch man

https://c.stocksy.com/a/cbA100/z0/279100.jpg

gedrosia component is very similar to the caucasus component and often also combined as one component. these people we posted are probably as close as you can get for the gedrosia component .however as I said it is not possible to know for sure because people are mixed now .

[GiCa]

Classic Gedrosia look , Pak Baloch actor

http://www.aajpk.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/nadia-khan-show-29-january-2016.jpg
http://pakistani.pk/uploads/reviews/photos/original/58/d1/17/ayub-khoso-photo-05-94-1441493104.jpg

Gedrosian is a brown skin pheno in origin

Gedrosian is very high from Pakistan to Bangladesh comprising India

[Mingle]

you can not take pakistani pheno/phenos and equate it with the gedrosia component because pakistanis score other things too . as you see they are 60% gedrosia but 40% other stuff such as high ASI , some east/northeast european , some minor neolithic etc.

it is actually hard to make such comparisons for any component

Also, Gedrosia is 60% only in Baloch people. They don't even make up 5% of Pakistan's population.

[lameduck]

another one

baloch man

https://c.stocksy.com/a/cbA100/z0/279100.jpg

gedrosia component is very similar to the caucasus component and often also combined as one component. these people we posted are probably as close as you can get for the gedrosia component .however as I said it is not possible to know for sure because people are mixed now .

this Sindhi as well after Baloch/bruhuis they score highest Gedrosia

https://media.gqindia.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/mahar31.jpg

[Thambi]

Pakistanis OVERALL aren't 60% baloch. They are around 40-45% if we include the majority of the population such as punjabis, pathans, and sindhis. Only balochis and brahuis from western pakistan are around 60% baloch.

[GiCa]

Also, Gedrosia is 60% only in Baloch people. They don't even make up 5% of Pakistan's population.

Read what I said, Gedrosia is high from. Pakistan to Bangladesh ranging 60% in Baloch to 30% in other people from paki-india-bangladesh

[lameduck]

Also, Gedrosia is 60% only in Baloch people. They don't even make up 5% of Pakistan's population.

its very high among Sindhis as well and Bruhuis too(they score highest) on combine they make something like 15% of population. Overall native Pakistani populations are rich in Gedrosia(minus dalits obviously).Punjabi arains also score very high Gedrosia and they are a large tribe.

[Mingle]

Read what I said, Gedrosia is high from. Pakistan to Bangladesh ranging 60% in Baloch to 30% in other people from paki-india-bangladesh

I know it's high in Pakistanis, but it's significantly less than 60%. Saying that Pakis are 60% Gedrosian is misleading.

[lameduck]

I know it's high in Pakistanis, but it's significantly less than 60%. Saying that Pakis are 60% Gedrosian is misleading.

also morph used is of cricket team and funny thing is that there is no Baloch/Sindhi/Bruhui player anyways its still a decent effort.

[GiCa]

There is an interesting mystery.. Has it been solved?

The relative high amount of Gedrosian in British Isles people.

It follows a broken path.. I mean it s reasonable that Gedrosian entered Europe from south east.. But then it s disconnected because Balkans and Central europe have less Gedrosian than the British isles.

Why is that?.. Historic mating of British with Indians and Pakistanis?

[Marmara]

Gedrosian is a brown skin pheno in origin

Gedrosian is very high from Pakistan to Bangladesh comprising India

How are you sure about that? Real source of brown skin is ASI in Indian subcontinent, Gedrosian might not have anything to do with it. Pakistanis have more than Indians but they aren't darker. Baloch people have it the most and they're much lighter than average.

[Gangrel]

Kurd average?

[Hadouken]

Kurd average?

Around 22 23

[Gangrel]

Around 22 23

which calc again B

[Hadouken]

The numbers gica gave are not all acurrate btw

I will post some results to for proof later

[Hadouken]

which calc again B

Dodo cat k12 b i gues

[lameduck]

How are you sure about that? Real source of brown skin is ASI in Indian subcontinent, Gedrosian might not have anything to do with it. Pakistanis have more than Indians but they aren't darker. Baloch people have it the most and they're much lighter than average.

You are right Gedrosia is the major caucasoid component of South Asia and populations that have them higher are actually lighter by South Asian standards.

[Gangrel]

Dodo cat k12 b i gues

is 28% on dodocatk12b

[Hadouken]

is 28% on dodocatk12b

28 is too high . I wil run kurdissh kits later when i am on computer . I have 23

[Purohit ji]

Indians are around average 38%. And it's almost equal in all castes.

[Kouros]

28 is too high . I wil run kurdissh kits later when i am on computer . I have 23

Where did Gedrosia come from? Central hunter gatherers? It looks like it's non-existent in Baltic and Poles/Ukrainians, peaks in Dinaric alps in the Balkans, and British isles in Europe.

[Hadouken]

Where did Gedrosia come from? Central hunter gatherers? It looks like it's non-existent in Baltic and Poles/Ukrainians, peaks in Dinaric alps in the Balkans, and British isles in Europe.

we wuz schyrhianz

[Gangrel]

28 is too high . I wil run kurdissh kits later when i am on computer . I have 23

You are part turk tho

[Mingle]

Where did Gedrosia come from? Central hunter gatherers? It looks like it's non-existent in Baltic and Poles/Ukrainians, peaks in Dinaric alps in the Balkans, and British isles in Europe.

Most likely Balochistan if I'm not mistaken.

https://baluchsarmachar.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/balochistan-map.jpg

[Hadouken]

You are part turk tho

if i am partilly turkish then only 1/3 .i am mostly kurdish either way. and turks score 13 14 or so percent themselves. I will look for kurdish results later and also run kits of other west asians

[Kouros]

we wuz schyrhianz

?


Most likely Balochistan if I'm not mistaken.

https://baluchsarmachar.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/balochistan-map.jpg

Is it related to a specific ancient/pre-historic people? I find it weird how the only place you don't find it is in Slavs.

[Hadouken]

if i am partilly turkish then only 1/3 .i am mostly kurdish either way. and turks score 13 14 or so percent themselves. I will look for kurdish results later and also run kits of other west asians

ok as promised I run several people through the calc :

Georgians :

20.49

18.49

20.61

18.80


Kurds from Tunceli/Dersim - Turkey


23.29 (my score)

22.71

24.58




Armenians :

19.27

20.28


Feyli Kurd from Iran :

27.26


Laz from Rize - Turkey :

16.51

[Jana]

There is an interesting mystery.. Has it been solved?

The relative high amount of Gedrosian in British Isles people.

It follows a broken path.. I mean it s reasonable that Gedrosian entered Europe from south east.. But then it s disconnected because Balkans and Central europe have less Gedrosian than the British isles.

Why is that?.. Historic mating of British with Indians and Pakistanis?

I think map is somewhat incorrect for south-central Europe (it shows it lower than reality). Both me and Stears score around 6% Gedrosian admix. I think it is usual for this part of Europe.

[princeton90]

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GBrcUN8BSyM/WaC1QFUuhgI/AAAAAAAACWM/R7oV-97IPR4GvXKzccJHvNteefHDjJEygCLcBGAs/s1600/Gedrosia.gif

1) Only Baloch people are around 60% Gedrosian and Baloch are only 2% of Pakistani population.
2) No, you cannot call proto-Gedrosians look like Baloch people since it would be really inaccurate. There would be a HUGE genetic distance between an average Baloch and a person who is hypothetically 100% Gedrosian by DNA. Because of that huge genetic distance, they would probably look very different from each other.

[Zoro]

https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GBrcUN8BSyM/WaC1QFUuhgI/AAAAAAAACWM/R7oV-97IPR4GvXKzccJHvNteefHDjJEygCLcBGAs/s1600/Gedrosia.gif


Everyone knows it makes no sense that Northern Europeans or for that matter any Europeans to score that much Gedrosian or Baloch component according to Dodecad K12b Gedmatch calculator above in the map

If you want to get more accurate admixture percentages you should use GedrosiaDNA project calculators not Dodecad or Eurogenes. The only bad thing about GedrosiaDNA calculators is that the oracles don’t have enough populations so you get modelled according to the few populations that are in the oracles.

Otherwise GedrosiaDNA calculators at GEDmatch have more accurate admixture percentages generally than Dodecad, Eurogenes or others. Here’s the proof:

As we can see in this chart the GedrosiaDNA Gedrosia or Baloch percentages make much more sense to everyone than the map of Dodecad K12 Gedrosia percentages above because Europeans score almost 0. Same with East Asians, Africans and Siberians. Also Indians except NW Indians score much less than Iranics such as Kurds which of course akso makes better sense than the other GEDmatch calculators

Chart is according to Gedrosia K12 population average spreadsheet on GEDmatch

https://i.imgur.com/4OIwLdk.jpg

[Grace O'Malley]

This is an old component from a calculator that is nearly 10 years old. It's not based on ancient components so pretty much outdated now.

[Zoro]

This is an old component from a calculator that is nearly 10 years old. It's not based on ancient components so pretty much outdated now.

Yeah so is the GedrosiaDNA K12 but that’s not a valid excuse since the Gedrosia K12 Gedrosia percentages makes much more sense than the Dodecad K12

[Grace O'Malley]

Yeah so is the GedrosiaDNA K12 but that’s not a valid excuse since the Gedrosia K12 Gedrosia percentages makes much more sense than the Dodecad K12

What exactly is it? It isn't ANE but some mixed component. Why use something like that when you have ancient samples that are much more representative? It doesn't make sense to me that people would use an old component like Gedrosia.

[Zoro]

What exactly is it? It isn't ANE but some mixed component. Why use something like that when you have ancient samples that are much more representative? It doesn't make sense to me that people would use an old component like Gedrosia.

It’s not based on any ancient component. It’s just based on Baloch genetic drift, but so in fact are other components in GEDmatch calculators. They are also based on genetic drift of modern populations. For example Caucasus is usually based and genetic drift of Georgians.

My point on the previous page was to show that people shouldn’t judge a calculator by whether the modelling or oracles has their own ethnic group but should judge A calculator on whether the admixture percentages make sense

So on the previous page I just proved that admixture percentages of GedrosiaDNA K12 make much more sense than Dodecad K12 even though people like the modelling or oracles of Dodecad K12 better. Simple answer is GedrosiaDNA calculators spreadsheets only have few populations

Accuracy of calculator admixture percentages and oracles are two separate subjects. It’s entirely possible to have a calculator that gives good oracle modeling but the admixture percentages are off for everyone
.

[Grace O'Malley]

It’s not based on any ancient component. It’s just based on Baloch genetic drift, but so in fact are other components in GEDmatch calculators. They are also based on genetic drift of modern populations. For example Caucasus is usually based and genetic drift of Georgians.

My point on the previous page was to show that people shouldn’t judge a calculator by whether the modelling or oracles has their own ethnic group but should judge A calculator on whether the admixture percentages make sense

So on the previous page I just proved that admixture percentages of GedrosiaDNA K12 make much more sense than Dodecad K12 even though people like the modelling or oracles of Dodecad K12 better. Simple answer is GedrosiaDNA calculators spreadsheets only have few populations

Accuracy of calculator admixture percentages and oracles are two separate subjects. It’s entirely possible to have a calculator that gives good oracle modeling but the admixture percentages are off for everyone
.

Thank you for your explanation. It's great to have some knowledgeable people posting on here. :thumb001:

[Komintasavalta]

What exactly is it? It isn't ANE but some mixed component. Why use something like that when you have ancient samples that are much more representative? It doesn't make sense to me that people would use an old component like Gedrosia.

Maybe there's some trick that I'm missing, but when I've tried to make a projected ADMIXTURE run where modern samples are projected on ancient references, I've gotten results like in the second and fourth graphs below, where most populations get at least 5-10% of every component. The same thing happens when I try to make SNP-level Vahaduo models where modern target populations are modeled using ancient source populations.

In supervised ADMIXTURE, you can select which samples are forced to get 100% of each component, but other samples are still allowed to affect the SNP loadings of the same components. So for example in the first graph below, the EHG_NHG component ended up accounting for Siberian ancestry, because the run included 20 samples from each population, and there were more Siberian samples than EHG_NHG samples, so the loadings of the EHG_NHG component were probably impacted more by the Siberian samples than the EHG_NHG samples.

In projected ADMIXTURE, first the SNP loadings of each component are defined using a set of reference samples, and then the components are used to model projected samples. But projecting ancient samples on modern references seems to give more reasonable results than projecting modern samples on ancient references. I haven't seen any academic paper with an ADMIXTURE run where modern samples are projected on ancient references, but some papers like Saag et al. 2019 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6544527/) have done the reverse.

https://i.ibb.co/6sJndCV/admixfail.jpghttps://i.ibb.co/DRv1Ybv/admixfail2.jpghttps://i.ibb.co/6sJSm34/admixfail3.jpg

[Zoro]

Maybe there's some trick that I'm missing, but when I've tried to make a projected ADMIXTURE run where modern samples are projected on ancient references, I've gotten results like in the second and fourth graphs below, where most populations get at least 5-10% of every component. The same thing happens when I try to make SNP-level Vahaduo models where modern target populations are modeled using ancient source populations.

In supervised ADMIXTURE, you can select which samples are forced to get 100% of each component, but other samples are still allowed to affect the SNP loadings of the same components. So for example in the first graph below, the EHG_NHG component ended up accounting for Siberian ancestry, because the run included 20 samples from each population, and there were more Siberian samples than EHG_NHG samples, so the loadings of the EHG_NHG component were probably impacted more by the Siberian samples than the EHG_NHG samples.

In projected ADMIXTURE, first the SNP loadings of each component are defined using a set of reference samples, and then the components are used to model projected samples. But projecting ancient samples on modern references seems to give more reasonable results than projecting modern samples on ancient references. I haven't seen any academic paper with an ADMIXTURE run where modern samples are projected on ancient references, but some papers like Saag et al. 2019 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6544527/) have done the reverse.

https://i.ibb.co/6sJndCV/admixfail.jpghttps://i.ibb.co/DRv1Ybv/admixfail2.jpghttps://i.ibb.co/6sJSm34/admixfail3.jpg

Great work again Komi ! I like your thinking and skills. You just exposed how the GEDmatch calculators are flawed since most are unsupervised and a few are supervised. I’m seeing how Iranians score only 1% E. Asian whereas Palestinians and Yemenis score more than them. Not to mention the 1% E. Asian for Iranians is a joke !

None are a perfect solution but i like the supervised and projected a little better.

The trick you are asking about for others not to affect SNP loadings is in supervised to only have carefully selected reference populations and only a couple of non-reference samples in each run. Of course it’s very time consuming since you’re getting results for only a couple of non-references at a time so you have to do dozens of runs but that’s the only way for non-references to not affect SNP loadings.

Unfortunately GEDmatch calculators were designed the opposite way with most of the time non-references even exceeding references!! You can only imagine how much the nun references have affected the SNP loadings. That’s why you’re seeing the odd results of Gedrosia in Dodecad and other calculators